I've fallen for my boyfriend's friends.

April 30, 2007 1:54 PM

My boyfriend adores me. My boyfriend's friends adore me. I adore my boyfriend's friends. I do not adore my boyfriend. Is it possible to remain friends with your boyfriend's friends post-break up?

My lack of adoration for my boyfriend is not overly dramatic or riddled with serious issues. He is incredibly generous and kind but I feel we lack common interests and an emotional connection. I feel passion less in our five month relationship. Also, there are certain habits that my boyfriend has, which severely irk me. We've constructively talked about these habits and although the situation has improved it has not entirely gone away.

My boyfriend is part of a very tight knit circle of friends. The group works and plays together. They've known one another since high school if not earlier. They have all sang high praise for my boyfriend. I adore his female and male friends (in a very platonic manner). They're fantastic, vibrant, and kind individuals. They've openly stated that they consider me to be a part of their tight knit group, that they adore me, and that my boyfriend is very lucky to have me. They seem to like me so much in fact that it has even aroused some jealousy in my boyfriend. He felt that some of his male friends were showing more than a platonic interest in me. He said that he felt jealous that I seemed to "glow" while talking with his friends, which I do not seem to do when conversing with him. He also stated that he did not feel I was flirtatious or harboring any feelings of romantic attraction for his friends. Just to make it clear, I do not have any romantic interests in any of his male friends. We agreed on a code word that he uses when he feels slighted or unhappy in group situations. The situation was dealt with and is a non-issue to the relationship at this point.

All time spent with my boyfriend's friends has involved my boyfriend. A handful of them have given me their numbers and/or business cards. Several of his friends have even called my boyfriend to request spending time with both of us.

I've arrived at the conclusion that my boyfriend and I are not going to work out much longer. I plan to end the relationship in very amicable terms and I believe that we will remain friends afterwards. I've been in several serious relationships and when the end was in sight, I lost contact with their friends. I understood and respected those boundaries. I want to remain friends with my current boyfriend's friends. I'd like to develop closer friendships with them sans the boyfriend. Is this possible? Another aspect of this situation is that they all work together. I do not want to jeopardize or cause any stress in my boyfriend's life over this, especially since it might carry over into his work life. How does one go about doing this in a polite, boundary respectful way?

posted by somersault to human relations (31 comments total)

Since it does not sound like you hate your boyfriend, the right thing to do is not to attempt to be friends with his friends until you've figured out how well you and your soon to be former boyfriend will get along post breakup.

At the very least, out of common decency you owe him several months of staying out of his group of friends and not forcing him to see you all the time after you've dumped him.

It sounds silly to speak as if his friends are "material", but they were his friends first, and you're dumping him which will hurt him enough. Also forcing him to see you all the time will only serve to torture him further and make you look like a big jerk - especially given his worry (whether founded or not) that his friends have non-platonic interest in you.

Clearly your boyfriend's insecurity is an issue (you have a code word, etc), so I understand why despite him being generous and nice things may not work out for you. The worst thing you could do to him after dumping him, then, is to intrude on the very thing he'll need to distract himself from thinking about getting dumped -- his friends.
posted by twiggy at 2:08 PM on April 30, 2007 [3 favorites]

"I plan to end the relationship in very amicable terms and I believe that we will remain friends afterwards."

I'd like to gently point out that although you may plan to end the relationship amicably and remain friends afterwards, that may not be what happens.

I think given the fact that your boyfriend has already expressed some jealousy over your relationship with his friends, he will probably have issues with it after you break up too. And, since they are his friends and workmates, it's more considerate of you to respect his wishes if he doesn't want you hanging out with his friends right away after your breakup. That might change with time, but it would be kindest of you to hear what he has to say about it first.

On preview: what twiggy said.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 2:12 PM on April 30, 2007

Twiggy nailed it. The honorable thing to do, if you're going to dump your boyfriend, is to find your own fabulous friends afterward.
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 2:13 PM on April 30, 2007

This is not something that is in your control. You boyfriend has all the cards in this situation. As he should, they are his friends.

Post break up, there will be a period when you don't see him. During that time he will continue to see his friends, and they will take his side on the matter (especially for a relationship as young as 5 months). So it will be his decision whether or not you can come back into the group, not yours.

If I was the ex-boyfriend, I wouldn't let it happen. But then again, I don't like hanging around ex's so maybe he's different.
posted by kisch mokusch at 2:22 PM on April 30, 2007 [1 favorite]

Artie Shaw, a very great musician, was married any number tof times to very attractive women. His advice on breaking up and divorce: (1) call your lawyer, (2) call a cab.

You will find more fine boyfriends, their friends, a whole new circle etc so why stayed a part of a dwindling group, who will either resent you or make a move on you.
posted by Postroad at 2:23 PM on April 30, 2007

Also, if you hurt their boy, even without intention to do so, I doubt they are going to find you as wonderful thereafter as they may seem to now. "Bros before hos" isn't just a Hell's Angels motto.

To be frank (and I say this only to suggest that you take a hard look at your own ability to empathize), I think it's pretty narcissistic of you to imagine that they might want to keep you in any circle of theirs, after you dump their friend. When such things happen, in my experience, it's not in a long term circle of friends such as you describe, without significant damage to those friendships. Why would you want to even risk hurting other people you've liked and who have been kind to you, by continuing in such situations?
posted by paulsc at 2:33 PM on April 30, 2007

This is not something you get to ask for. You have to move on.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:33 PM on April 30, 2007 [1 favorite]

The friends will either have to choose between him (at least until he finds a new girlfriend and gets over the current relationship) and you (since you seem to be the one who is thinking about breaking this thing up.) You've already said the friends have known each other since high school -- I'm guessing they'll choose him.

Sorry. But they're his friends, not yours.
posted by Comrade_robot at 2:37 PM on April 30, 2007

seconding everyone, it just won't happen.
His tight knit group will swoop in to console him in his time of heartbreak, you think they're going to want to hang with the source of said heartbreak?

Best you can hope for is occasionally chatting with them when you see them out on the town.
posted by Kellydamnit at 2:47 PM on April 30, 2007

My boyfriend is part of a very tight knit circle of friends. The group works and plays together. They've known one another since high school if not earlier.

On the short-term, you are boned, period. Even if they like you and consider you a part of that knot of closeness and think you're the best thing that ever happened to their friend, he's still their very good friend who they've known since high school if not earlier. They're going to stick by him, and you're introducing, at least for a while, an emotional line in the sand that they cannot straddle while he is hurting.

Long term? Could be great. Could be an irreperable falling out. Being respectful, undramatic, and necessarily not around will help with that—not that you have to fall off the face of the earth, but heavily moderate your contact with the friends and keep it very much in their hands, and his, as to when is good and how often is alright.

Beyond that it's chance and patience. Wounds may heal, it might be awesome fun happy time again in a couple months. Or he might be resentful and uncomfortable with you for a long haul; ditto the friends.
posted by cortex at 2:53 PM on April 30, 2007

When a close, longtime friend is dating someone (and that boyfriend/girlfriend is not patently obnoxious) I find myself being nicer, warmer and friendlier to that person to include the SO in our gatherings and conversations. Also, some of the general goodwill that I feel towards my close friend will spill over to the person the friend is dating. I wonder if some of that feeling of these being great friends is because of these factors. Especially with the part about people calling to spend time with both of you - maybe it's exciting for his friends to do couple's activities with him that they would normally not invite him to? It isn't to say that these people wouldn't be your friends at all if they met you outside of the circle (and that may be the way to go for future contact with them - contacting them individually, out of the circle, a while after the breakup), just that they could be especially enthusiastic about you because they thought of you as making him happy.
posted by PY at 2:59 PM on April 30, 2007 [1 favorite]

the situation you've described is rare for a number of reasons:

1. regardless of whether or not you have any interest in your boyfriend's friends, he will perceive a possibility that such an interest may develop post-breakup. depending on what kind of person he is, this may drive him batshit insane, or only drive him just a little completely nuts.

2. no matter how amicable the breakup, if your boyfriend adores you, he will be hurt even if (or depending on his personality, perhaps especially if) he doesn't see you breaking up with him as wrong or he can't find any fault in you or your decision. if he is hurt, his friends will feel for him and (depending, once again, on their personalities) may come to resent you simply for having made him sad even under innocent circumstances.

3. any attempt to be friends with his friends, but not with him, is doomed to failure unless he's got some jerk friends who want to sleep with you. do not attempt it. part of what's difficult about this situation is that you can only be friends with his friends by continuing to be friends with him. anyone who has been dumped, no matter how kindly, will need an adjustment period to really be able to consider the dumper a friend in any true or meaningful sense of the word. during that adjustment period, it may simply not be possible to hang out with him as friends, and it would certainly be a terrible idea to try to hang out with his friends without him.

the point is this: if you want to be friends with his friends, be friends with him. I've told plenty of my friends' girlfriends that they were members of the crew, and it was true while they were my friends' girlfriends. afterward, almost none of them managed to stay friends with my friends, and i stopped talking to almost all of them entirely. It wasn't because I hated them or anything of the kind, but merely because that's the way these things go. If they're not hanging out with my friends, then I'm certainly not going to exclude my friends from anything for their sake. there may be one or two i still maintain contact with, but that is strained and infrequent and largely because they know OTHER friends of mine outside of their relationship with the friend they dated.

It doesn't sound like you intend to hang out with his friends without him, or that you want to steal them away from him or anything absurd like that, so here's my advice for maintaining the friendship as best as possible:

1. Never do anything that could be construed as evidence that you still have some small romantic interest in him. This is tough because he'll be looking for that even when it isn't there. But don't just go and get drinks with him alone, or coffee, or stuff like that. Be friends, but be clear that that's it.

2. Do not tell him about anyone else you may be dating. This'll just breed resentment.

3. Do not try to hang out with him and his friends all the time. Give him some space and some time to rely on the support of his friends without the awkward situation of having to avoid the topic of you because you're there all the time.

4. Do not try to hang out with any of his friends without him at all. If he's on vacation in another country, do not hang out with them until he gets back. If he's feeling sick and not going out for the night, don't hang out with them without him. you get the idea.

5. Do not talk to his friends about the breakup. Such a horribly bad idea, and I know from experience. You have no idea how damaging to every friendship involved it is to make someone think that there are sides to the breakup and some people are on one side and some are on the other. You'll hurt your friendship with him, with them and his friendship with them.

6. let him talk to you if he needs to, even about the breakup. this is not to say that you should leave business meetings to answer random phone calls or anything. but if he wants to talk, you can be there for him as a friend. it's important to clearly be his friend. at the same time, be honest. if he's trying to convince you to give him another shot, don't pretend it's a possibility if it isn't. sometimes it helps for the dumped to just air their feelings out loud to the dumper once or twice. it lifts the weight a bit. but it doesn't help if the dumper lies to the person and gives them a false hope to believe in. it just prolongs the heartache and breeds resentment.

7. be very careful about when you try to hang out with him and his friends, and under what circumstances. trying to hang out with his friends right off the bat is probably a bad idea, and having the both of you meet up with those friends independently of one another is also probably a very bad idea. it's one thing if you're friends with him and he invites you to come out for drinks with the guys or something after he's had some time to deal with being dumped a bit. it's entirely another if the day after you leave him he goes out for drinks with the boys and you're there already laughing it up with them. one feels like a form of healing, the other feels like an ambush. try as much as possible to be hanging out with his friends because he asked you to.

obviously, this is a lot of eggshell walking you'd have to do, but that's the nature of a difficult situation like this. there's a reason it almost never happens, and especially not when the dumped boyfriend is a good guy whose friends really like him. it'll be frustrating at times, in all likelihood, and you'll wonder when the hell things can just be a normal time of you hanging out with his friends. there is no answer to that. maybe it'll be a year, maybe it'll never happen, maybe it'll be a week. who knows. hope this is helpful to you and good luck with everything.
posted by shmegegge at 3:08 PM on April 30, 2007 [1 favorite]

Yep, it's a tricky situation and the outcome is really not your call. You might remain friends with your soon-to-be-ex-boyfriend, which might eventually create the circumstances under which his friends will wish to remain friends with you. None of that is solely up to you, no matter how polite, friendly, and well-meaning you may be.

From what you've written, too, it sounds like it's quite possible that one or more of his friends may be interested in you themselves (regardless of whether or not you presently harbor any romantic feelings toward any of them yourself). Depending on the particular guy-code in play among your soon-to-be-ex and his friends, this will also have an impact on the range of possibilities for everyone to stay friends. Again: not in your control.

So by all means, break up amicably and don't burn any bridges, but in order to keep potential hurt to a minimum, you'd be wise to accept that not all the factors at play are in your hands, and that once you break up, you're not going to be hanging out with his gang anytime soon thereafter.
posted by scody at 3:20 PM on April 30, 2007

Oh god, I'm am so glad some of the wonderful people I am friends with didn't post this very question on AskMe before they broke up with their significant others.

Some of my very favorite people in the world made the jump from 'the girlfriend' to full fledged friend after the break up in situations pretty much exactly as you describe. As a matter of fact, it has become something of a recurring theme in my circle of friends.

If they would have disappeared, given us up as their boyfriends property or gone to 'make their own friends' it would be a terrible blow, as my life is far richer for their continued presence in it.

Not that it won't sometimes be a bit awkward (just ask my buddy who gets they joy of having 2-3 ex girlfriends chatting with each other over dinner when we are out as a group) but the thing is unless you are 17 years old, then it's time to expect people to be grown ups sometimes.

Of course this is all predicated on the assumption that the breakup isn't too terribly ugly, and you must not try to horn in directly into the group's activities too soon (he'll need some time to mourn). Instead it always seemed best to leave the 'whole group' activities alone for a bit and focus on hanging out with individuals from the group in small pods of one or two. Also, make sure the first few attempts to hang out with grouplings are casual and clearly a-sexual. Preferably things like hitting the thrift store for an hour or two, or maybe catching a movie (but not one that you expect the whole group to want to see together).

But the key thing is just establishing that you consider these people to be, well, people and not just property of your ex-boyf, and make it clear you hope they feel the same.

Good luck, and please on behalf everyone like me (who are better off having people once in your situation as a part of our lives) don't listen to these other folks!
posted by Jezztek at 3:46 PM on April 30, 2007

Yeah, I'm Nth-ing the fact that when you break up with him, you are going to lose contact with his friends. UNLESS any of them care about you enough as an individual to continue contact on their own initiative after the break-up, to the peril of their own relationship with your Ex. But that's their choice, not his or yours. You could probably help your odds for that situation by spending more time with them away from him, even if it makes him jealous, so you could establish a relationship with them that they see as being separate the BF.
posted by np312 at 3:48 PM on April 30, 2007

Jezztek: (and I address this for the benefit of the OP) You should be able to ascertain a few things from this thread:

1) Proportionally, your situation is clearly incredibly rare. Everyone agrees it just doesn't work to try and be friends with the group of friends of the dumpee except for you. That's not to say that your situation isn't legitimate and real, but to say that while it may have happened to work out for you, it's more often than not going to cause way more harm than good.

2) I believe that you have neglected to consider the portion of the original post that alludes to the already existing worry of the soon to be dumpee that she may hook up with one of his friends. From the perspective of the guy getting dumped, continuing to hang out with these people all but proves those fears true in his mind (even if he's wrong).

The bottom line is that continually showing up places you know your ex boyfriend will be present is psychological torture in the vast majority of instances. That means:
- Hanging out with his friends
- Going to the coffeeshop he always reads at on Sundays at 3pm -- on a Sunday, at 3pm
- Anything else resembling the above.

The attitude that "unless you're 17 years old you can just deal with it and grow up" makes sense on its face, but in reality, people are not rational and the practice "just being adults about it" fails way more often than not.

Emotions are a tricky and delicate thing, and no matter how much it makes sense that people should just grow up, accept breakups and other hardships and deal with it, we as a species just can't do it.

Especially given his already jealous state, friendship with his circle is doomed to cause problems. Even without it, it's more than likely the outcome anyway.
posted by twiggy at 4:16 PM on April 30, 2007

The attitude that "unless you're 17 years old you can just deal with it and grow up" makes sense on its face, but in reality, people are not rational and the practice "just being adults about it" fails way more often than not.

Absolutely. I am friends with many of my exes, AND friends with some of their friends, so my answer came from experience. Of course it's possible to maintain a friendship with an ex and sometimes by extenision with that ex's friends -- but it's also potentially difficult (and sometimes impossible), precisely because post-breakup feelings and issues of loyalties are naturally more complicated than "just growing up," even for the most mature, non-17-year-old participants.
posted by scody at 4:32 PM on April 30, 2007

OK, Devil's Advocate time. You could go nuclear. Tough out the relationship long enough to figure out which of the guys in the group is most attracted to you. Hook up with that guy. Do not attempt to start a relationship with the guy (or you'll be back in the same spot in six months), but don't exactly discourage it either. Hopefully, after the shrapnel has cleared, you will be in the group, without strict connections to old boy or new boy.

Note: I would not do this myself, nor do I consider it ethical, but it is an option...
posted by Rock Steady at 4:36 PM on April 30, 2007

More ethically, you could try building some connections to the people in the group independent of the BF (probably with the women in the group to minimize jealousy). This way, you have some other reason for staying in the group. You could even just be honest with a couple of them -- "I'm not sure things are working out with me and Nosepicker McJealous, but I don't want you guys to be pissed at me if I break it off with him!"
posted by Rock Steady at 4:40 PM on April 30, 2007

Rock Steady: I don't know if I'd call your second suggestion "ethical."

Knowing that you're going to hurt the hell out of the ex boyfriend means (in my eyes, anyhow) that it's unethical to attempt to continually inject yourself into his life post-breakup.

The phrase "having some other reason" for staying in the group seems to subtlely admit this - like some sort of loophole is required to get around a rule (that rule being: once you break up with someone, stay out of their lives and let them recover)....

Yes, I am paying too much attention to this thread. Sorry.
posted by twiggy at 4:48 PM on April 30, 2007

I had a relatively tight-knit group of friends that I introduced my now-ex to.

She is now closer to all of them than I am.

It depends on how he handles the break up. I collapsed into a black hole of depression for months after she left (there were other badly timed factors that pushed me further), which meant I didn't see or hang out with my friends much for a long time. And when I did, I wasn't very fun to be around. I had also been drifting apart from them for a long time because I spent all my time with her.

This was also a 3 year relationship with a year spent cohabitating, so it's not quite the same. But, well, it's entirely possible you'll stay friends with them, though it likely won't be pleasant for the boy. If you still care about him you might want to back out of the social circle for a while, at least.
posted by flaterik at 4:53 PM on April 30, 2007

Well, it's certainly more ethical than my first one, twiggy. Also I don't think the breaker-upper is always to blame for the break-up. If the relationship is not working, you should end it, whether or not it hurts the other party. You are still entitled to try and be friends with people you like, regardless of their connection to your ex.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:06 PM on April 30, 2007

This is friends from his past. His circle, not yours. I think it's entirely unethical to do anything to squirrel them away from him or split interests.

I realize it is not always the fault of the person at the receiving end of the breakup but if he does adore you there will be some fallout from the breakup. Do the right thing and just walk away.
posted by purephase at 5:26 PM on April 30, 2007

Oh, for crying out loud. They're your friend now too. See whoever you want.
posted by krisjohn at 5:59 PM on April 30, 2007

krisjohn, i think you may be missing the fact that she didn't ask if it was okay to hang out with them, but whether she was likely to maintain a friendship with them after the breakup. I think it's pretty clear from this thread that their feelings for her may very well change after the breakup because her soon-to-be-ex is an almost lifelong friend of theirs, so it's not quite as simple as "They're your friends now too. See whoever you want."
posted by shmegegge at 6:25 PM on April 30, 2007

it's not quite as simple as "They're your friends now too. See whoever you want."

Exactly. It's clear that she wants to see them; the question is whether they will want to see her (who they've known for a few months) after she dumps their friend (who they've known for many years).
posted by scody at 6:42 PM on April 30, 2007

I'm surprised so many people say it just won't happen, rather than emphasizing something about the not-so-nice quality of doing it. I've known SO's who sort of managed to get closer to someone's friends and then dumped someone and still hung out with their friends. Sometimes it even seems like they went out with Someone in order to get into a clique more than because they really liked Someone to start with (almost like, date the loserliest guy in the cool crowd until you're In, then dump him & take over his spot, kinda thing). I'm not saying people do that on purpose, but that they might be sort of subconsciously more likely to stick with a relationship for its fringe benefits, so to speak.

Anyway, I've seen it work or heard people complain about folks who've done it to them, etc, so I wouldn't say you have no chance, just that yr SO may feel a little bitter about it. But if the break up really is as amicable as you hope, maybe it won't be a problem. On the other hand, I'm not sure you'd bother to ask the question if there were no worries there...

Overall, my thoughts would be:
- honestly make sure that you're being respectful of his emotional responses, and not dismissing what he's going through as "immature" or "irrational". If he has deep feelings for you, he's going to undergo real pain. You got to enjoy the benefit of his "irrational" emotions, so try to recognize that to some extent, these things are what they are. You can't just make it go away because it's inconvenient from your end.

- let the friends lead the way, keep your ex in the loop, and in general avoid one-on-one meetings with the members of the group yr ex has/had jealousy issues about.

- pursue your own activities & generally get on with your life outside of this. You can always shoot people an email in a couple months but give them room for a while. don't take it personally if they don't contact you and he's not interested in staying in touch for the moment.

Best case scenario - a little time off, everyone meets someone new, everyone starts hanging out again, and old wounds are healed.
Worst case scenario for him - you become better friends with his friends, he feels bitter & isolated, you start dating his best friend, or meet someone new that the group loves; he hates you forever and ever.
Worst case scenario for you - the friends don't like you after all / hate you for dumping their friend;
or,
a little time off, you start hanging out again, the ex has met someone new but you haven't, you are a (fifth) wheel, you start wondering why you broke up with him to start with, the new girlfriend is beloved by the friends...
basically, who knows :). Just try to be sensitive.
posted by mdn at 7:02 PM on April 30, 2007

A prophecy. This will end bad if you do it.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:34 PM on April 30, 2007

I've done this successfully, but it takes a lot of conscious thought about your actions. The key things to remember are to both give him space (nobody wants their ex around while they're getting over them) and to not lose contact with his group of friends at the same time.

The way to do this is to only try to stay friends with the women. Yes, your feelings towards the men are strictly platonic and maybe that's true for them too. That doesn't matter. If you stay friends with the women then you can gradually ease back into being friends with the whole bunch, but if you start out trying to be friends with the guys it will make your ex insecure and upset and his friends will take his side (if they didn't they wouldn't really be friends, would they?)

You have a free pass on girl talk, use it to stay in touch until the hurt blows over.
posted by cali at 8:42 PM on April 30, 2007

'm reading through everyone's responses and wondering if I can possibly be the only person here who's lived in a small, tight community. Where I used to live, you couldn't just avoid people just because they were associated with an ex. Anyone who shared interests with you would inevitably turn up again and again -- interviewing for a job with your group, at the farmers' market, at your dentist's office, playing drums in your dentist's band, in a class you were taking or teaching, as your roommate's therapist, as your therapist's roommate.

In an environment like that you have to some strategies for dealing with this sort of thing, because there are only so many interesting people to hang out with, and the alternative -- isolation -- is no good no matter which side of a breakup you're on.

It'll definitely be awkward, and it'll involve at least some temporary measure of retreat, but courtesy and discretion should get you through it.

You're in a better position than I ever was. (I worked in an overwhelmingly male environment and my work supplied the underpinning of my social life, so most of my friends were guys.) I didn't have the luxury of taking Cali's advice, but you can. Don't push things, but do make an effort to stay in touch with at least one or two the women; if they're perceptive and thoughtful, they may be able to give you specific advice about how to avoid putting anyone in an uncomfortable position.

Also take special note of mdn's last point: your ex's new girlfriend will be invited along to things instead of you, and that will sting.

It'll take some time, but the fact that you're asking this at all suggests that you'll be able to behave with some grace and sensitivity. Give things time, respect your ex (if you're lucky, you can talk with him straight up with about how much social overlap he's comfortable with), and you should eventually be able to resume your various friendships.
posted by tangerine at 11:27 PM on April 30, 2007

Are you and your boyfriend's friends all grown-ups?

Do you understand and respect how much grown-up-ness this will require of your boyfriend?

Now, by grown-up, I do not mean merely 'independent' or any such thing. I mean honest, trusting, gentle, empathetic, self-controlled, able and willing to communicate, patient. Free from acts of spite, selfishness, or delusion.

If the answer to both of the above questions is a firm yes, then do what you feel, and only what you actually feel. If it is not, do not let this high-energy situation touch the weak point (whether it's your maturity, or someone else's, or your humane respect for your soon-to-be-ex) unguardedly. Shore it up, work around it, or turn down the power.

It can be done, but there's no easy way. Love, grit, and a steady hand are the order of the day.

Good luck.
posted by eritain at 4:39 AM on May 1, 2007