Do people marry someone similar?
August 15, 2012 11:41 AM Subscribe
My friend has heard that people marry those who are similar to themselves (in looks, age, social class, education etc). He worries this will rule out all the "good" women.
Help me advise him how marriages really work.
Despite being good looking and smart my friend has not had an easy life (health problems and family issues) and claims that any woman who is "any good" would not want him, and a woman like him would be "too much trouble". Clearly he has self esteem issues, but I worry he is getting the wrong idea about marriage because of this idea that people marry those who are similar.
Can you tell me:
Did you marry someone similar or quite different to you in age, looks, social class, education or other major characteristics? How did your marriage work out?
What advice can I give to my friend, (apart from "fix your self esteem so that 'someone like you' is not such a bad concept"?)
Despite being good looking and smart my friend has not had an easy life (health problems and family issues) and claims that any woman who is "any good" would not want him, and a woman like him would be "too much trouble". Clearly he has self esteem issues, but I worry he is getting the wrong idea about marriage because of this idea that people marry those who are similar.
Can you tell me:
Did you marry someone similar or quite different to you in age, looks, social class, education or other major characteristics? How did your marriage work out?
What advice can I give to my friend, (apart from "fix your self esteem so that 'someone like you' is not such a bad concept"?)
I think you're friend is right that people tend to marry those who are similar to them. The whole "opposites attract" thing is rarely true. People are typically attracted to those who have at least a couple of things in common with them.
My wife and I are very similar, despite coming from opposite ends of the country. We have a similar level of education, a similar family background (though her family was better off than mine), and similar values. We have differences, of course, and they make our relationship more interesting, but if we didn't have so much in common, we likely wouldn't have dated long enough to get married.
Honestly, the self-esteem advice that you mentioned is probably what your friend does need to hear. But he might need to hear it from a therapist rather than a friend.
He's right that most people marry those who are similar to them. He's wrong, I assume, that if he marries someone like himself that they'll be doomed to a miserable and unhappy life.
In any case, he needs to work on himself and build up his self-esteem before he even begins to think about marrying someone.
posted by asnider at 11:50 AM on August 15, 2012
My wife and I are very similar, despite coming from opposite ends of the country. We have a similar level of education, a similar family background (though her family was better off than mine), and similar values. We have differences, of course, and they make our relationship more interesting, but if we didn't have so much in common, we likely wouldn't have dated long enough to get married.
Honestly, the self-esteem advice that you mentioned is probably what your friend does need to hear. But he might need to hear it from a therapist rather than a friend.
He's right that most people marry those who are similar to them. He's wrong, I assume, that if he marries someone like himself that they'll be doomed to a miserable and unhappy life.
In any case, he needs to work on himself and build up his self-esteem before he even begins to think about marrying someone.
posted by asnider at 11:50 AM on August 15, 2012
He's 'heard' ... ? Anyway, accepting his logic, if most people marry someone similar to themselves, and most marriages end in divorce (so I've heard), what would he conclude from this?
I think he needs more confidence, including confidence to be single, if he wants to be.
posted by carter at 11:53 AM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think he needs more confidence, including confidence to be single, if he wants to be.
posted by carter at 11:53 AM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
My husband and I are so similar in some important ways. We both like to argue, we have very similar politics and moral values, we both wanted a long-term commitment and children. But in other ways we are very different; I'm an extrovert, while he's an introvert; he likes vacations where we get out and do things and I like vacations where I lie around with a book; he's thrifty, I'm. . . not; he's a college graduate and I'm not, etc.
So yeah, people marry people who are like them. But not in every respect.
posted by KathrynT at 11:55 AM on August 15, 2012
So yeah, people marry people who are like them. But not in every respect.
posted by KathrynT at 11:55 AM on August 15, 2012
I would ask him why he feels entitled to somebody "better", which I assumes means that he wants somebody who can offer him more than he can offer them. Many men do seem to feel like that so it is such a good thing that he recognizes this because now he can work thorugh it so that he can have the life he wants.
i would reframe the self esteem issue as asking him what he could do to offer more, focusing on what he could bring to the table.
posted by cakebatter at 11:55 AM on August 15, 2012 [29 favorites]
i would reframe the self esteem issue as asking him what he could do to offer more, focusing on what he could bring to the table.
posted by cakebatter at 11:55 AM on August 15, 2012 [29 favorites]
I am not married (by choice) but I am in a six-year relationship. My lovely partner is 39 and I'm 33, so not a huge age difference by any means.
My partner has a high school education and I have a graduate degree. I earn a lot more than he does. I exercise and eat well. He doesn't exercise and allows himself a lot of "treats" that I don't allow myself. My background is upper middle class, his is lower middle class. I am extroverted and sociable and he is a homebody. I love to vacation and he'd be just as happy if he never traveled again.
So we have different backgrounds and ambitions. However, we have similar morals, values, and tastes. We are both responsible, frugal, and easygoing. Household tasks are shared. When one of us is too busy for our home responsibilities, the other picks up the slack. Neither or us wants kids. These things are far, far more important to the health of our relationship than how much money he makes and how many letters come after his name.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:58 AM on August 15, 2012 [5 favorites]
My partner has a high school education and I have a graduate degree. I earn a lot more than he does. I exercise and eat well. He doesn't exercise and allows himself a lot of "treats" that I don't allow myself. My background is upper middle class, his is lower middle class. I am extroverted and sociable and he is a homebody. I love to vacation and he'd be just as happy if he never traveled again.
So we have different backgrounds and ambitions. However, we have similar morals, values, and tastes. We are both responsible, frugal, and easygoing. Household tasks are shared. When one of us is too busy for our home responsibilities, the other picks up the slack. Neither or us wants kids. These things are far, far more important to the health of our relationship than how much money he makes and how many letters come after his name.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:58 AM on August 15, 2012 [5 favorites]
We're a mix of similar (age, professional status, attractiveness) and dissimilar (economic and family background, ethnicity).
We are in agreement in all the important stuff: values, friendships, attitudes about money, marriage and children. None of those things turn up on your friend's list, but seem to determine quite a bit of marital happiness.
posted by 26.2 at 12:02 PM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
We are in agreement in all the important stuff: values, friendships, attitudes about money, marriage and children. None of those things turn up on your friend's list, but seem to determine quite a bit of marital happiness.
posted by 26.2 at 12:02 PM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
Your friend is correct. Long-term pairings feature two people who are very similar in age, intelligence, social class, and physical attractiveness. You say he is good-looking and smart, so he is likely to marry someone of comparable looks and intelligence. I am sure you will receive some anecdata of May-December pairings or rich girl-poor boy, but they are the exception.
What are his health issues and family issues? Without sharing them, it is hard to evaluate what effect, if any, they have on his sexual marketplace value. For example, having a peanut allergy would not have very much effect, while missing a limb might. If there is a potential issue on your friend's part, it could be that he is overestimating the effect of his health and family "issues" on his potential romantic success.
posted by Tanizaki at 12:04 PM on August 15, 2012 [7 favorites]
What are his health issues and family issues? Without sharing them, it is hard to evaluate what effect, if any, they have on his sexual marketplace value. For example, having a peanut allergy would not have very much effect, while missing a limb might. If there is a potential issue on your friend's part, it could be that he is overestimating the effect of his health and family "issues" on his potential romantic success.
posted by Tanizaki at 12:04 PM on August 15, 2012 [7 favorites]
Despite being good looking and smart my friend has not had an easy life (health problems and family issues) and claims that any woman who is "any good" would not want him, and a woman like him would be "too much trouble".
Ask your friend, if he found someone who was good looking and smart and "had not had an easy life (problems, family or other issues)" would he find her to be "too much trouble"?
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:12 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Ask your friend, if he found someone who was good looking and smart and "had not had an easy life (problems, family or other issues)" would he find her to be "too much trouble"?
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:12 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
If there is a potential issue on your friend's part, it could be that he is overestimating the effect of his health and family "issues" on his potential romantic success.
This. Add to this the effect of your friend thinking he's somehow not good enough to be valued by someone "good", and he's going to choose a very skewed sampling of relationships in order to validate his view.
My parents were pretty different in some ways (race, class, education) and pretty similar in others (general outlook, humor, etc.). They got married. It lasted six years. My dad went on to marry a woman who was so different from him (and from my mom), and they were married more than 25 years (he died, they didn't divorce).
Most people have things about themselves that they don't like, and they can't imagine how someone else could like or value those things about them - and for some people, this translates as "therefore, nothing about me is loveable, and anyone who loves me must be really fucked up." Which is pure bullshit for pretty much everyone.
posted by rtha at 12:13 PM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
This. Add to this the effect of your friend thinking he's somehow not good enough to be valued by someone "good", and he's going to choose a very skewed sampling of relationships in order to validate his view.
My parents were pretty different in some ways (race, class, education) and pretty similar in others (general outlook, humor, etc.). They got married. It lasted six years. My dad went on to marry a woman who was so different from him (and from my mom), and they were married more than 25 years (he died, they didn't divorce).
Most people have things about themselves that they don't like, and they can't imagine how someone else could like or value those things about them - and for some people, this translates as "therefore, nothing about me is loveable, and anyone who loves me must be really fucked up." Which is pure bullshit for pretty much everyone.
posted by rtha at 12:13 PM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
Your friend is right, statistically, at least, people do marry people who are similar to them. (There really aren't a lot of people who grew up in poverty marrying someone wealthy. Or even middle class people marrying people who are quite poor or quite rich.)
The thing he's probably over estimating is both HOW SIMILAR these matches are, and assuming that marriage partners are similar IN EVERYTHING. People have commonalities, and they have differences, and they have the ability to forgive or ignore or appreciate things about their partner that aren't the same, or that aren't ideal.
But: it sounds like he needs some help with self esteem more than he needs a sociology lesson.
posted by Kololo at 12:14 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
The thing he's probably over estimating is both HOW SIMILAR these matches are, and assuming that marriage partners are similar IN EVERYTHING. People have commonalities, and they have differences, and they have the ability to forgive or ignore or appreciate things about their partner that aren't the same, or that aren't ideal.
But: it sounds like he needs some help with self esteem more than he needs a sociology lesson.
posted by Kololo at 12:14 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
My great-grandmother's family was old money. Like plantation-owning, seriously high-class old money. She married a cobbler. Despite the downgrade in status, she still raised her sons and daughter to think of themselves as upper class. My grandmother attended a finishing school, debuted to society, and was classically trained in the violin. She married a farmer. Granted, a farmer with a rare (at the time) college degree in agriculture, but a farmer none-the-less. My dad was also raised to think of himself as middle class but taught the rules of "polite society."
My mother was dirt poor. Like short of food, insecure housing, and clothes from second-hand stores poor. She said that when she went to my father's house to meet his parents she was convinced that they were filthy rich. They had nice things and everything was so well-taken care of, she had no idea how to behave. She spent the first year of their marriage worried she'd do or say the wrong thing and these people would discover how poor and low-class she was. Then she realized that my grandparents worked harder than anyone she'd ever met. They didn't behave like what she thought rich people should behave. They were as conservative about money as her parents who had none. They had a level of financial security that she never would have dreamed possible, but they did not take it for granted.
All of those marriages lasted over 40 years, and the common thread was that regardless of their economic class, everyone in the marriage thought they were on equal footing. I remember my grandmother talking about how my grandfather dazzled her with his education, and how he loved her refined manners. Their differences were there, but they both place a higher value on the things they shared. My parents are the same. As are most people.
Tell your friend to work on liking who he is and stop stressing about what kind of woman would want to marry him. She'll come along when he's ready for her.
posted by teleri025 at 12:15 PM on August 15, 2012 [6 favorites]
My mother was dirt poor. Like short of food, insecure housing, and clothes from second-hand stores poor. She said that when she went to my father's house to meet his parents she was convinced that they were filthy rich. They had nice things and everything was so well-taken care of, she had no idea how to behave. She spent the first year of their marriage worried she'd do or say the wrong thing and these people would discover how poor and low-class she was. Then she realized that my grandparents worked harder than anyone she'd ever met. They didn't behave like what she thought rich people should behave. They were as conservative about money as her parents who had none. They had a level of financial security that she never would have dreamed possible, but they did not take it for granted.
All of those marriages lasted over 40 years, and the common thread was that regardless of their economic class, everyone in the marriage thought they were on equal footing. I remember my grandmother talking about how my grandfather dazzled her with his education, and how he loved her refined manners. Their differences were there, but they both place a higher value on the things they shared. My parents are the same. As are most people.
Tell your friend to work on liking who he is and stop stressing about what kind of woman would want to marry him. She'll come along when he's ready for her.
posted by teleri025 at 12:15 PM on August 15, 2012 [6 favorites]
Tanizaki and others have it. I would not want to marry someone who is whiny about health issues and can't set boundaries with their family, i.e. someone who is "too much trouble". Is that what he's worried about? Maybe if he was less trouble himself, then he would find someone similar.
posted by Melismata at 12:15 PM on August 15, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 12:15 PM on August 15, 2012 [5 favorites]
To a certain extent your friend is right. He will get the wife he deserves. And if he goes through life thinking he doesn't deserve a loving, respectful wife, he'll likely end up in a relationship where he is being taken advantage of in some way. Or he'll end up with somebody even needier than himself. Neither is likely to be a healthy relationship.
I was a lower middle class military brat with bad habits, no respect for authority, and a delusional ideal of how awesome my wife should be. She was an upper middle class executive's daughter sorority girl that had literally never done anything that would get her grounded in her entire life. We were as unlikely a couple as you could find.
We'll be married 21 years on Sunday :)
Stories, data, and logic will not help your friend. The old adage that you have to love yourself before you can be loved is true. He needs to work on liking himself first.
posted by COD at 12:16 PM on August 15, 2012 [9 favorites]
I was a lower middle class military brat with bad habits, no respect for authority, and a delusional ideal of how awesome my wife should be. She was an upper middle class executive's daughter sorority girl that had literally never done anything that would get her grounded in her entire life. We were as unlikely a couple as you could find.
We'll be married 21 years on Sunday :)
Stories, data, and logic will not help your friend. The old adage that you have to love yourself before you can be loved is true. He needs to work on liking himself first.
posted by COD at 12:16 PM on August 15, 2012 [9 favorites]
My husband and I are pretty similar now. Our backgrounds are quite different (culture, socioeconomic, temperament etc.) but over the past 8 years we have become more similar. We each have our history and family life that has shaped who we are and our world views. Since we have been together we have been making our own history and family culture. We also picked up each other's mannerisms and NOW he even copied my choice in eyewear! So over time we now even look similar! I wouldn't say we were opposits at first, but have definitely grown to be very similar.
posted by Swisstine at 12:21 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Swisstine at 12:21 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
We're a mix of similar (age, professional status, attractiveness) and dissimilar (economic and family background, ethnicity).
We are in agreement in all the important stuff: values, friendships, attitudes about money, marriage and children. None of those things turn up on your friend's list, but seem to determine quite a bit of marital happiness.
This so perfectly summed up my marriage, I had to check if it was written by Mr Pocahontas himself! To embellish on the theme of what determines marital happiness, if the "important stuff" quoted above *isn't* similarly aligned, then there is that much "work" to be done in a marriage, which means communication & negotiation, empathizing with another person's point of view, etc. I can understand why for some people, it was just "too much work" and they throw in the towel.
But I politely concur that it sounds like your friend needs to work on the self-esteem first.
posted by Pocahontas at 12:33 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
We are in agreement in all the important stuff: values, friendships, attitudes about money, marriage and children. None of those things turn up on your friend's list, but seem to determine quite a bit of marital happiness.
This so perfectly summed up my marriage, I had to check if it was written by Mr Pocahontas himself! To embellish on the theme of what determines marital happiness, if the "important stuff" quoted above *isn't* similarly aligned, then there is that much "work" to be done in a marriage, which means communication & negotiation, empathizing with another person's point of view, etc. I can understand why for some people, it was just "too much work" and they throw in the towel.
But I politely concur that it sounds like your friend needs to work on the self-esteem first.
posted by Pocahontas at 12:33 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Nthing Tanizaki and Melismata first and then going on to nth some other points:
What exactly are the family and health issues? Does he have a co-dependent relationship with family members? Is he an enabler? Most "good" women do not want to be with a codependent enabler, because that will spill over into the couple relationship and poison it.
Do his health issues interfere with his being a full partner in a relationship? Can he give as much as he gets - I don't mean earning power or household chores, but being able to participate in a relationship as an equal and an adult, being an emotional, mental and spiritual support and companion. Or does he need someone who is willing to take on a caregiver role to some (or a great) degree? Again, that is off-putting to many people because most people marry expecting an equal partnership, not one where they will be more a caregiver/surrogate mother than a wife.
Many people have "family and health" issues and can both be and find wonderful partners. But it's much, much harder when one is co-dependent or an enabler with family and friends or has the kind of severe health issues which limit how much they can give to a partnership.
Things like low self-esteem (thinking he doesn't deserve a great partner), codependency and enabling can and should be addressed in therapy, twelve-step or other groups, and reading material like Codependent No More. I would say that if your friend has any of these issues to head to a therapist and/or twelve-step group and do some hard work on himself. Many women whom he'll meet have done similar hard work and have become great partners by dint of therapy and self-awareness and a commitment to change. Your friend can do the same.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 12:33 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
What exactly are the family and health issues? Does he have a co-dependent relationship with family members? Is he an enabler? Most "good" women do not want to be with a codependent enabler, because that will spill over into the couple relationship and poison it.
Do his health issues interfere with his being a full partner in a relationship? Can he give as much as he gets - I don't mean earning power or household chores, but being able to participate in a relationship as an equal and an adult, being an emotional, mental and spiritual support and companion. Or does he need someone who is willing to take on a caregiver role to some (or a great) degree? Again, that is off-putting to many people because most people marry expecting an equal partnership, not one where they will be more a caregiver/surrogate mother than a wife.
Many people have "family and health" issues and can both be and find wonderful partners. But it's much, much harder when one is co-dependent or an enabler with family and friends or has the kind of severe health issues which limit how much they can give to a partnership.
Things like low self-esteem (thinking he doesn't deserve a great partner), codependency and enabling can and should be addressed in therapy, twelve-step or other groups, and reading material like Codependent No More. I would say that if your friend has any of these issues to head to a therapist and/or twelve-step group and do some hard work on himself. Many women whom he'll meet have done similar hard work and have become great partners by dint of therapy and self-awareness and a commitment to change. Your friend can do the same.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 12:33 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I can't remember where I heard this but I do believe that it's true: Most any woman can handle the smartest man, but it takes a very wise woman to handle a fool. Your friend needs to be on the lookout for a woman with wisdom.
posted by dancestoblue at 12:36 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by dancestoblue at 12:36 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Well, people usually do marry people who are statistically similar to them. People usually have friend groups who are statistically similar to them. More to the point, people usually marry a person who is similar to their friend group.
Friend groups define not only who we are, but who we want to be and how we perceive ourselves. Even if your buddy is going through a period of bad self-esteem, he may be able to recognize how awesome his friends are, and to draw the logical conclusion that worthwhile people do like him, and there is a worthwhile woman out there for him. Dissimilar people do marry, but they must've met somehow, and the very fact that they were in the same place at the same time indicates some shared interests. If person of group A meets person of group B in a context that is much more of group B, the fact that they were there in the first place is an indication that group B isn't so offputting, despite their group A background.
So encourage your friend to spend time around people who do the kinds of things he likes, and not worry about the statistics involved in that self-selecting group. My point being, if he feels that his socioeconomic background or education level isn't what he wishes, then most likely his interests aren't in line with those characteristics. Then when he does the things he's interested in, he will meet people who are "not like him".
posted by aimedwander at 12:42 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
Friend groups define not only who we are, but who we want to be and how we perceive ourselves. Even if your buddy is going through a period of bad self-esteem, he may be able to recognize how awesome his friends are, and to draw the logical conclusion that worthwhile people do like him, and there is a worthwhile woman out there for him. Dissimilar people do marry, but they must've met somehow, and the very fact that they were in the same place at the same time indicates some shared interests. If person of group A meets person of group B in a context that is much more of group B, the fact that they were there in the first place is an indication that group B isn't so offputting, despite their group A background.
So encourage your friend to spend time around people who do the kinds of things he likes, and not worry about the statistics involved in that self-selecting group. My point being, if he feels that his socioeconomic background or education level isn't what he wishes, then most likely his interests aren't in line with those characteristics. Then when he does the things he's interested in, he will meet people who are "not like him".
posted by aimedwander at 12:42 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
You don't marry someone who is exactly like you. Not only is it boring but there's no potential for growth. You marry someone who has something in common with you but brings something to the relationship that you don't have. Sure, in some cases the differences overwhelm the similarities but when they don't, it's magic.
I've been married almost 29 years and my wife and I are still night and day in a lot of ways. But without her I wouldn't have accomplished what I have. And vice versa.
posted by tommasz at 12:43 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
I've been married almost 29 years and my wife and I are still night and day in a lot of ways. But without her I wouldn't have accomplished what I have. And vice versa.
posted by tommasz at 12:43 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
My husband and I are similar in age and religious belief (we're both atheists) and we share some key interests. He's black, I'm white; he grew up in a more rural area where I grew up in a more urban one. He had a much more financially secure childhood than I did. We are still married, so I guess it's working. I have both health issues and family issues and mr. crankylex still felt I was worth marrying, so that isn't necessarily an impediment.
posted by crankylex at 12:44 PM on August 15, 2012
posted by crankylex at 12:44 PM on August 15, 2012
Your friend is right, but here's the detail that makes it less important than he thinks: People marry people like them because those are the people they meet.
Rich people interact with dozens of other rich people for every blue-collar worker they chat with at random. It's the same the other way around. Most people live among other people of their race and ethnicity, because that's how humans roll. People meet their spouses-to-be at church (they share a religion) or bars (they both drink in the same neighborhood) or concerts (they like the same music). These things cluster, and in the grand scheme of things, Prince William is much more likely to end up marrying Kate Middleton than a Vietnamese nail salon worker in San Jacinto, if only because he's probably never going to meet Cindy Nguyen.
posted by Etrigan at 12:46 PM on August 15, 2012 [10 favorites]
Rich people interact with dozens of other rich people for every blue-collar worker they chat with at random. It's the same the other way around. Most people live among other people of their race and ethnicity, because that's how humans roll. People meet their spouses-to-be at church (they share a religion) or bars (they both drink in the same neighborhood) or concerts (they like the same music). These things cluster, and in the grand scheme of things, Prince William is much more likely to end up marrying Kate Middleton than a Vietnamese nail salon worker in San Jacinto, if only because he's probably never going to meet Cindy Nguyen.
posted by Etrigan at 12:46 PM on August 15, 2012 [10 favorites]
Is your friend slightly misogynistic? What does he mean by "good" anyway?
As a woman, I may be biased towards my own gender, but there are a lot of awesome women who would be good partners and friends. And I think the way male culture is, a lot of men both overtly and subconsciously objectify women instead of thinking of them as people.
Are you sure it's actually a self esteem problem and not an inability to relate to women?
posted by discopolo at 12:51 PM on August 15, 2012 [7 favorites]
As a woman, I may be biased towards my own gender, but there are a lot of awesome women who would be good partners and friends. And I think the way male culture is, a lot of men both overtly and subconsciously objectify women instead of thinking of them as people.
Are you sure it's actually a self esteem problem and not an inability to relate to women?
posted by discopolo at 12:51 PM on August 15, 2012 [7 favorites]
I'll add my story, but it echoes a lot of the above.
My now-wife and I met while I was a research specialist in a cognitive psychology lab at the same top-tier university I graduated from. (Wait... I'm still there.) She was doing bookkeeping at a heating oil company while taking classes part-time at the community college towards an associate's degree. My parents are both academic: my mom is a professor, and my dad is a former instructor, now college IT coordinator. Hers are more blue-collar and didn't go to college, having gotten married and had kids young.
This is exactly my experience, so I'll echo it: People marry people like them because those are the people they meet. If it weren't for online dating, our circles never in a million years would have overlapped, and I would still be single and depressed.
We were already very similar in personality and world outlook (no kids, misanthropy, nerdiness). Of course, since then, we've become even more similar: she started working in my lab to get away from a bad work situation and has enrolled as an undergrad at the same top-tier university I went to with the job's tuition benefits.
In short, I could totally see our lives progressing with "worlds" running parallel, the way they did when we first met, but instead, they grew closer together, and more similar. No value judgement: the key is the interpersonal fit, not the similarity of livelihoods and backgrounds. Just one couple's experience.
posted by supercres at 12:53 PM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
My now-wife and I met while I was a research specialist in a cognitive psychology lab at the same top-tier university I graduated from. (Wait... I'm still there.) She was doing bookkeeping at a heating oil company while taking classes part-time at the community college towards an associate's degree. My parents are both academic: my mom is a professor, and my dad is a former instructor, now college IT coordinator. Hers are more blue-collar and didn't go to college, having gotten married and had kids young.
This is exactly my experience, so I'll echo it: People marry people like them because those are the people they meet. If it weren't for online dating, our circles never in a million years would have overlapped, and I would still be single and depressed.
We were already very similar in personality and world outlook (no kids, misanthropy, nerdiness). Of course, since then, we've become even more similar: she started working in my lab to get away from a bad work situation and has enrolled as an undergrad at the same top-tier university I went to with the job's tuition benefits.
In short, I could totally see our lives progressing with "worlds" running parallel, the way they did when we first met, but instead, they grew closer together, and more similar. No value judgement: the key is the interpersonal fit, not the similarity of livelihoods and backgrounds. Just one couple's experience.
posted by supercres at 12:53 PM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
My partner of 8 years (three years domestically partnered) and I are from very different backgrounds. He's a musician from from jewish, bohemian, communist and artistic parents. He has spent most of his life in NYC, London and Paris. He attended one semester of college, and has enjoyed a successful career in the music world (performing and later song writing). I am from rural TN, daughter of a single, blue-collar mother. I grew up in the bible-belt (although thankfully not indoctrinated at home). I went to state universities, and eventually got a masters degree in Social Work, and a career in non-profit management. I landed in NYC after a failed relationship.
We met on the internet. He's a decade plus older than me. I outweigh him by a 100lbs. We do have the same temperament, outlook on life, belief in honest communication and shoe size. We always have something to talk about and we make each other laugh.
What I realized when I was dating was that I was lessening my chances to find love by setting arbitrary parameters based on who other people thought I should be dating. That went for looks and background. Of course I did have a number of qualities that were important to me... and that's pretty much what I focused on. Your friends beliefs will opt him out of great relationships before he even allows them to start.
posted by kimdog at 1:29 PM on August 15, 2012 [4 favorites]
We met on the internet. He's a decade plus older than me. I outweigh him by a 100lbs. We do have the same temperament, outlook on life, belief in honest communication and shoe size. We always have something to talk about and we make each other laugh.
What I realized when I was dating was that I was lessening my chances to find love by setting arbitrary parameters based on who other people thought I should be dating. That went for looks and background. Of course I did have a number of qualities that were important to me... and that's pretty much what I focused on. Your friends beliefs will opt him out of great relationships before he even allows them to start.
posted by kimdog at 1:29 PM on August 15, 2012 [4 favorites]
my friend has not had an easy life (health problems and family issues) and claims that any woman who is "any good" would not want him, and a woman like him would be "too much trouble".
I'm not married, but in my experience it's usually a relief to discover that someone I'm dating has a similarly fractured family, or has similarly complicated baggage. I feel like that will mean they're likely to be comfortable with my life as it actually is.
I don't need them to be super fucked up or anything, but it's always a relief on the third date when they mention their parents are divorced or whatever.
Also, to address your friend's specific concerns a little more. I think when research shows that people marry people who are "like them", it doesn't mean what he thinks it means. It doesn't mean every last detail. It doesn't mean some kind of value judgment, like "fucked up people with emotional problems are only good enough for other fucked up people with emotional problems."
It means that you're more likely to marry someone of a similar age, class, racial, and religious background to you. I don't see what that has to do with his concerns, unless he is assuming that someone of X background is more or less likely to be "damaged goods" or whatever.
posted by Sara C. at 1:43 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm not married, but in my experience it's usually a relief to discover that someone I'm dating has a similarly fractured family, or has similarly complicated baggage. I feel like that will mean they're likely to be comfortable with my life as it actually is.
I don't need them to be super fucked up or anything, but it's always a relief on the third date when they mention their parents are divorced or whatever.
Also, to address your friend's specific concerns a little more. I think when research shows that people marry people who are "like them", it doesn't mean what he thinks it means. It doesn't mean every last detail. It doesn't mean some kind of value judgment, like "fucked up people with emotional problems are only good enough for other fucked up people with emotional problems."
It means that you're more likely to marry someone of a similar age, class, racial, and religious background to you. I don't see what that has to do with his concerns, unless he is assuming that someone of X background is more or less likely to be "damaged goods" or whatever.
posted by Sara C. at 1:43 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
My long term partner went to a private school, I went to a state school. She went to Oxbridge, I did not. Her father is a lawyer, mine is a welder. Her family are very close, talk and see each other regularly, I am barely in touch with mine. Despite all this she has never voted Tory, which would be a difference too far.
This all falls into the category of not finding reasons not to be with someone.
posted by biffa at 2:05 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
This all falls into the category of not finding reasons not to be with someone.
posted by biffa at 2:05 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
These things cluster, and in the grand scheme of things, Prince William is much more likely to end up marrying Kate Middleton than a Vietnamese nail salon worker in San Jacinto, if only because he's probably never going to meet Cindy Nguyen.
Absolutely. People make friends and start relationships with the people they meet at university, graduate school, at work, or that are friends of friends. Most people (especially before the internet) that have circles of friends or partners with very different social backgrounds to their own attended a university or chose a career that is unusual for people of their background.
As an example, Kate Middleton is quite instructive. I have some friends who grew up near her whose parents were also successful small business owners, except that their parents decided to send them to the local state schools (which are quite good, as it happens) rather than Marlborough and then they went to Oxford and Imperial rather than St. Andrews for university. My friends and the Duchess of Cambridge are of quite a similar social background (you could argue that my friends family is actually of a slightly higher social status than the Middletons, if that kind of thing is your jam) but their choices have led them to have very different circles of friends and different relationships.
posted by atrazine at 2:08 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Absolutely. People make friends and start relationships with the people they meet at university, graduate school, at work, or that are friends of friends. Most people (especially before the internet) that have circles of friends or partners with very different social backgrounds to their own attended a university or chose a career that is unusual for people of their background.
As an example, Kate Middleton is quite instructive. I have some friends who grew up near her whose parents were also successful small business owners, except that their parents decided to send them to the local state schools (which are quite good, as it happens) rather than Marlborough and then they went to Oxford and Imperial rather than St. Andrews for university. My friends and the Duchess of Cambridge are of quite a similar social background (you could argue that my friends family is actually of a slightly higher social status than the Middletons, if that kind of thing is your jam) but their choices have led them to have very different circles of friends and different relationships.
posted by atrazine at 2:08 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I just quickly wanted to add: wrt to the health problem he has epilepsy, so it is probably not going to impede his ability to contribute to a relationship, at least not until he gets a lot older or assuming he keeps his seizures under control, but I think he worries that it is still a 'thing.'
wrt to the family issues Sara C said 'complicated baggage' and that is about right. His parents are still living together but he has had his issues with them over the years - I don't want to go into too many details here.
I guess he has to grapple with whether people will discriminate without explicitly saying so, and work out how much weight to give to these issues (e.g. tell people right away or wait till later in the relationship).
Anyway thanks for all the interesting input - keep it coming!
posted by EatMyHat at 3:28 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
wrt to the family issues Sara C said 'complicated baggage' and that is about right. His parents are still living together but he has had his issues with them over the years - I don't want to go into too many details here.
I guess he has to grapple with whether people will discriminate without explicitly saying so, and work out how much weight to give to these issues (e.g. tell people right away or wait till later in the relationship).
Anyway thanks for all the interesting input - keep it coming!
posted by EatMyHat at 3:28 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
I definitely hear his worries that people will judge him based on aspects of his past or baggage or things that make up who he is.
But I don't think that's what the studies that show that people marry others like them is about, as I said above. It's not about having "issues" with your parents, or a medical condition, or whatever else. It's about, say, being more likely to marry someone with a college degree if you went to college. Or more likely to marry someone who is Jewish if you're active in your synagogue.
I know someone who has one deaf parent and one hearing parent. They met at a nightclub. One never knows.
posted by Sara C. at 3:51 PM on August 15, 2012
But I don't think that's what the studies that show that people marry others like them is about, as I said above. It's not about having "issues" with your parents, or a medical condition, or whatever else. It's about, say, being more likely to marry someone with a college degree if you went to college. Or more likely to marry someone who is Jewish if you're active in your synagogue.
I know someone who has one deaf parent and one hearing parent. They met at a nightclub. One never knows.
posted by Sara C. at 3:51 PM on August 15, 2012
I have an aunt who - due to bipolar disorder - lost all her money and had to give up her artist career and is now a lowly government worker in Wales who can barely afford to feed her cat. She's been happily married to a tenured professor of biochemistry from Iraq for two decades and counting.
Advice: date nice people, they may surprise you.
posted by dumdidumdum at 4:00 PM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
Advice: date nice people, they may surprise you.
posted by dumdidumdum at 4:00 PM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
I guess he has to grapple with whether people will discriminate without explicitly saying so,
This might not make him feel better, but yes, people will do this, and they will do about stuff that has nothing to do with his family or medical history. They will do it because they don't like his hair, or his taste in music, or that he talks too much/not enough, or he's a Dodgers fan. None of those things are necessarily a big deal, objectively. People aren't objective, they make snap judgments, they go with their guts. For some people, his family and medical stuff will not be a big deal at all, but his loving the Dodgers will be a dealbreaker.
posted by rtha at 4:03 PM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
This might not make him feel better, but yes, people will do this, and they will do about stuff that has nothing to do with his family or medical history. They will do it because they don't like his hair, or his taste in music, or that he talks too much/not enough, or he's a Dodgers fan. None of those things are necessarily a big deal, objectively. People aren't objective, they make snap judgments, they go with their guts. For some people, his family and medical stuff will not be a big deal at all, but his loving the Dodgers will be a dealbreaker.
posted by rtha at 4:03 PM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]
There are lots of kind, smart, generous, warm, loyal people that your friend would find sexy as hell who have complicated family baggage and chronic medical conditions of their own, so it seems like your friend would have a strong chance of finding his exact counterpart.
If that's even true about people marrying their exact counterparts, which I doubt. But if it is, is it that your friend thinks that a woman like him isn't good enough for him? Or that he isn't good enough for a woman like him?
About 40% of marriages in the US end in divorce, just to clarify that statistic.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:10 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
If that's even true about people marrying their exact counterparts, which I doubt. But if it is, is it that your friend thinks that a woman like him isn't good enough for him? Or that he isn't good enough for a woman like him?
About 40% of marriages in the US end in divorce, just to clarify that statistic.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:10 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]
Everyone has different dealbreakers. Many, many people with epilepsy have great careers and happy marriages. (Just for me, a severe cat allergy would be a deal-breaking health condition and epilepsy wouldn't, for the reason that I refuse to live uncatted. Someone else might be fine with a severe cat allergy because they have one themselves or they don't want pet cats.)
Just here on the green, many many folks have posted about their health conditions and dysfunctional families and lots of them are happily partnered.
I still suggest therapy, self-help books and websites, twelve-step programs and support groups (especially therapy) to address your friend's self-esteem. If his family background is this bad he probably grew up believing he was flawed or broken or "didn't deserve" love or nice things. Addressing self-esteem and codependency issues in therapy or support groups will help him deal with feelings of undeservedness and make his whole life happier.
As far as revealing personal stuff to prospective partners: this isn't something he should just blurt out on the first date. It's definitely something to address early on, as he and Date are getting to know each other better. It's also something that is best to address in a matter-of-fact way, not with lots of handwringing and "I have a shameful secret to tell you" drama.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:15 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
Just here on the green, many many folks have posted about their health conditions and dysfunctional families and lots of them are happily partnered.
I still suggest therapy, self-help books and websites, twelve-step programs and support groups (especially therapy) to address your friend's self-esteem. If his family background is this bad he probably grew up believing he was flawed or broken or "didn't deserve" love or nice things. Addressing self-esteem and codependency issues in therapy or support groups will help him deal with feelings of undeservedness and make his whole life happier.
As far as revealing personal stuff to prospective partners: this isn't something he should just blurt out on the first date. It's definitely something to address early on, as he and Date are getting to know each other better. It's also something that is best to address in a matter-of-fact way, not with lots of handwringing and "I have a shameful secret to tell you" drama.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:15 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]
I have chronic health problems and a crazy family and it has never occurred to me that I'd have to "settle" or end up with someone sub-par.
Is he envisioning a model with a PHD and anything less then that is worthless and he needs to deal with his messed up views on women, or does he think he's going to end up with Cruella de Vil and is suffering some serious self-esteem issues?
posted by Dynex at 8:31 PM on August 15, 2012
Is he envisioning a model with a PHD and anything less then that is worthless and he needs to deal with his messed up views on women, or does he think he's going to end up with Cruella de Vil and is suffering some serious self-esteem issues?
posted by Dynex at 8:31 PM on August 15, 2012
I'm engaged to someone who comes from a similarly dysfunctional family background as mine - alcoholic mothers, absent fathers in both our cases. We're different enough from each other to keep things interesting (from different continents, different types of intelligence and skills, etc) but for us it's great to be with someone from a similar family background for a few reasons. For one thing, we understand each other well. But most importantly, I think, is the fact that we both are proud of each other for overcoming tough odds to become healthy, happy, successful, responsible and empathetic people. I'm not sure I would have quite as much respect for a partner who'd had things really easy.
While dating, I did come across a few men who were explicitly looking for women with good relationships with their families. I found this a bizarre and overly simplistic approach, and it was immediately clear to me that I wouldn't be compatible with these men. Fine, good to know, time to move on.
I do believe people tend to marry people at the same level of emotional health as they are, and often those who have gone through similar levels of difficulties to get where they are. As long as your friend does his best to improve himself and overcome his problems, he'll be well matched with a woman who has gone through her own trial by fire and come out stronger on the other side. If he doesn't, well, he'll likely wind up with someone with a lot of problems, too. Up to him, really.
posted by hazyjane at 10:35 PM on August 15, 2012 [7 favorites]
While dating, I did come across a few men who were explicitly looking for women with good relationships with their families. I found this a bizarre and overly simplistic approach, and it was immediately clear to me that I wouldn't be compatible with these men. Fine, good to know, time to move on.
I do believe people tend to marry people at the same level of emotional health as they are, and often those who have gone through similar levels of difficulties to get where they are. As long as your friend does his best to improve himself and overcome his problems, he'll be well matched with a woman who has gone through her own trial by fire and come out stronger on the other side. If he doesn't, well, he'll likely wind up with someone with a lot of problems, too. Up to him, really.
posted by hazyjane at 10:35 PM on August 15, 2012 [7 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
My husband and I are alike in many ways -- we went to the same undergrad school, are less than a year apart in age, grew up in the same state attending public schools, come from stable families, and have similar ideas about how we want to live our lives. But we're not alike in some pretty obvious ways -- race, religion, the fact that my parents are immigrants and we grew up speaking a language he had never heard of, while he lived a lifestyle that I only saw on TV.
It sounds like your friend feels like his life is complicated and it would be difficult to be with someone whose life is similarly complicated. Fair enough. But I doubt that being alike in that way -- i.e., seeking out someone with the same amount of baggage as you -- is a priority for most people. Usually you get to know and like someone first, and then you learn about their health problems and family issues.
posted by chickenmagazine at 11:48 AM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]