How do I stop acting like an ACOA?
March 2, 2012 10:41 AM
I'm an adult child of alcoholics, and I've just recently come to realize I actually do exhibit many of the classic behaviors of one. Now that I have that figured out, how do I retrain myself to NOT do those things?
Much as books and counseling and going to groups sound like a good idea, I know I'll find excuses not to go, can't make time, too busy to read, etc. I don't want to talk and read about it, I want to DO something about it. I plainly see the behaviors as I am doing them, but saying "stop that" to myself just doesn't cut it - the feelings that spark the behaviors can't be changed that easily. How do you retrain yourself for healthy thinking and relationships in practical terms?
Much as books and counseling and going to groups sound like a good idea, I know I'll find excuses not to go, can't make time, too busy to read, etc. I don't want to talk and read about it, I want to DO something about it. I plainly see the behaviors as I am doing them, but saying "stop that" to myself just doesn't cut it - the feelings that spark the behaviors can't be changed that easily. How do you retrain yourself for healthy thinking and relationships in practical terms?
Doing things like reading books and going to groups are things you can DO. What else do you imagine there might be? Therapy, whether individual, group, or in the form of 12-step meetings, is the best thing you can do for yourself. There is no magical activity that is going to prevent you from going down the road to alcoholism.
It is absolutely awesome that you are wanting to take steps to make your life better and I urge you, if you're feeling like you still have control over those behaviors and can change them, to act now. It will only get harder. My dad died an alcoholic and it is a horrible, horrible thing to witness, much less go through. If you don't feel like you're ready for or in need of AA, try an Adult Children of Alcoholics or Al-Anon meeting. It's only an hour out of your life.
posted by something something at 10:56 AM on March 2, 2012
It is absolutely awesome that you are wanting to take steps to make your life better and I urge you, if you're feeling like you still have control over those behaviors and can change them, to act now. It will only get harder. My dad died an alcoholic and it is a horrible, horrible thing to witness, much less go through. If you don't feel like you're ready for or in need of AA, try an Adult Children of Alcoholics or Al-Anon meeting. It's only an hour out of your life.
posted by something something at 10:56 AM on March 2, 2012
@metahawk: I am way too concerned with what other people think of me/my family/my loved ones, so I embarrass easily. I am overly responsible and can't stand not being in control. I'm judgemental of myself and highly judgemental of people I love. I tend to be pretty antisocial, but I fake being social well when I need to. But I really prefer not to. I don't develop many close friendships. These are just the ones on the top of my head.
posted by thrasher at 10:59 AM on March 2, 2012
posted by thrasher at 10:59 AM on March 2, 2012
books and counseling and going to groups sound like a good idea, I know I'll find excuses not to go, can't make time, too busy to read, etc. I don't want to talk and read about it, I want to DO something about it.
Hey, serious question -- what's the difference between talking about it with a counselor and talking about it with us? What's the difference between reading a book about it and reading the things we have to say about it?
How do you retrain yourself for healthy thinking and relationships in practical terms?
Why are you comfortable with our suggestions and assistance in doing this and not the suggestions and assistance of a counselor, a professional whose full-time job is helping people answer this question?
I'm serious with these questions, not trying to play "gotcha."
posted by cairdeas at 11:05 AM on March 2, 2012
Hey, serious question -- what's the difference between talking about it with a counselor and talking about it with us? What's the difference between reading a book about it and reading the things we have to say about it?
How do you retrain yourself for healthy thinking and relationships in practical terms?
Why are you comfortable with our suggestions and assistance in doing this and not the suggestions and assistance of a counselor, a professional whose full-time job is helping people answer this question?
I'm serious with these questions, not trying to play "gotcha."
posted by cairdeas at 11:05 AM on March 2, 2012
+1 on an ACA meeting. Worth a try if there's one in your area. I would also suggest a CoDA meeting (Codependents Anon) which also seeks to address better ways of behaving with people. It really is just an hour.
As for things to do, I find a great starting point is to keep affirmations in mind. Here are a few ACA ones and some CoDA ones.
Behavior can change, but you need tools to short circuit them. Everyone learns to integrate change a bit differently. Therapy of various kinds, self-soothing techniques, reminders, affirmations, etc can all play a part.
posted by artlung at 11:10 AM on March 2, 2012
As for things to do, I find a great starting point is to keep affirmations in mind. Here are a few ACA ones and some CoDA ones.
Behavior can change, but you need tools to short circuit them. Everyone learns to integrate change a bit differently. Therapy of various kinds, self-soothing techniques, reminders, affirmations, etc can all play a part.
posted by artlung at 11:10 AM on March 2, 2012
MeFi is something I can do for a couple minutes at a time while at work, etc. Can't really read a book or go to counseling when I'm waiting for a meeting at my office to start. I can get a bunch of answers from a bunch of different viewpoints over a few days on MeFi. MeFi is free(ish). The people at MeFi may or may not be pros, but neither necessarily are the people at meetings. Etcetera.
posted by thrasher at 11:11 AM on March 2, 2012
posted by thrasher at 11:11 AM on March 2, 2012
If you think you are drinking more than you should, you need to be able to prove to yourself that you are in control of your life and not the booze. You will feel a whole lot better about yourself when you do this.
First cut back on daily drinking. Find something you like a lot like a lot - your favorite Starbucks coffee, or a juice or chocolate milk or a non-alcoholic beer - and drink that for one day. Distract yourself, go to bed early or whatever but just drink that one thing.
Next day you go back to your usual booze but space out your sips/swallows. I started off with 5 minutes in between and now I'm up to 10 minutes. That, obviously, slows the process down but you are still drinking alcohol so you don't feel like you are denying yourself.
Repeat this process for one week.
After a week or so you will see you are controlling things and can choose when and where you drink. Maybe go for two days abstaining, then you can choose to stretch it out. You can either just cut down or quit completely.
Good luck! This procedure is working for me and a friend has just started it and its working for her.
Oh - increasing your daily exercise routine, also, helps build up your resolve and confidence. I've increased my running from 2 miles a day to 5 or 6 and its really helped my anxiety level which is the main cause of my drinking
posted by Tullyogallaghan at 11:13 AM on March 2, 2012
First cut back on daily drinking. Find something you like a lot like a lot - your favorite Starbucks coffee, or a juice or chocolate milk or a non-alcoholic beer - and drink that for one day. Distract yourself, go to bed early or whatever but just drink that one thing.
Next day you go back to your usual booze but space out your sips/swallows. I started off with 5 minutes in between and now I'm up to 10 minutes. That, obviously, slows the process down but you are still drinking alcohol so you don't feel like you are denying yourself.
Repeat this process for one week.
After a week or so you will see you are controlling things and can choose when and where you drink. Maybe go for two days abstaining, then you can choose to stretch it out. You can either just cut down or quit completely.
Good luck! This procedure is working for me and a friend has just started it and its working for her.
Oh - increasing your daily exercise routine, also, helps build up your resolve and confidence. I've increased my running from 2 miles a day to 5 or 6 and its really helped my anxiety level which is the main cause of my drinking
posted by Tullyogallaghan at 11:13 AM on March 2, 2012
Let me be clear - I drink about one alcoholic drink a week. I'm not at all concerned that I'm going to become an alcoholic, I'm concerned about the interpersonal behaviors I've developed from having to deal with alcoholics all my life.
posted by thrasher at 11:15 AM on March 2, 2012
posted by thrasher at 11:15 AM on March 2, 2012
How do you know the issues you are concerned about have anything to do with growing up with alcoholic parents? Nothing about anything you listed is unique, or as far as I know, even correlated with growing up in a family with alcoholic parents. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't work on improving the issues if they bother you, but I think tying them to your parents may be a red herring that gets in the way of getting it done.
posted by COD at 11:19 AM on March 2, 2012
posted by COD at 11:19 AM on March 2, 2012
Therapy would likely really help. What's keeping you from making the time FOR YOU to receive treatment for a problem that you've identified as something that you're motivated to work on because it causes you distress? Consider that "I don't have time for therapy" is an excuse, not a reason you can't find a way to make it work. One hour every couple of weeks is not an untenable demand on your schedule if you have prioritized your well-being higher than some of the other things in your life.
posted by so_gracefully at 11:21 AM on March 2, 2012
posted by so_gracefully at 11:21 AM on March 2, 2012
If it looks, walks and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck. These and many other behaviors I exhibit and relationships I form fall squarely within the 13 ways to recognize an adult child of an alcoholic:
http://www.ministryhealth.net/mh_articles/053_thirteen_ways_to_recognize_acoa.html
posted by thrasher at 11:22 AM on March 2, 2012
http://www.ministryhealth.net/mh_articles/053_thirteen_ways_to_recognize_acoa.html
posted by thrasher at 11:22 AM on March 2, 2012
My big idea for this stuff is almost always going to be related to CBT, because it has helped me break so many bad patterns and continues to be a productive toolset.
CBT is action-oriented therapeutic behavior modification that has great success for people who want to keep moving through life as they unsnarl things. It is basically a toolbox to get from survival to coping and ultimately to thriving as your own person, with less bad wiring and fewer crappy internal scripts.
While it's more ideal to see a therapist, there are fantastic CBT resources at most big bookstores (and Amazon) which you can use for yourself at your own pace. I got over my resistance to in-person therapy through workbooks.
You can do CBT exercises in a workbook when you are waiting for a bus. You can put a custom cover on it to protect your privacy.
If you are completely adverse to carrying learning materials with you outside of the home, you can put them in the bathroom and get maybe one exercise out of the way ever so often but also start putting new information in place of the old programming.
posted by batmonkey at 11:23 AM on March 2, 2012
CBT is action-oriented therapeutic behavior modification that has great success for people who want to keep moving through life as they unsnarl things. It is basically a toolbox to get from survival to coping and ultimately to thriving as your own person, with less bad wiring and fewer crappy internal scripts.
While it's more ideal to see a therapist, there are fantastic CBT resources at most big bookstores (and Amazon) which you can use for yourself at your own pace. I got over my resistance to in-person therapy through workbooks.
You can do CBT exercises in a workbook when you are waiting for a bus. You can put a custom cover on it to protect your privacy.
If you are completely adverse to carrying learning materials with you outside of the home, you can put them in the bathroom and get maybe one exercise out of the way ever so often but also start putting new information in place of the old programming.
posted by batmonkey at 11:23 AM on March 2, 2012
I don't want to talk and read about it, I want to DO something about it.
Right, well, as an ACA what you do about it is go to AlAnon and/or see a therapist. That's how you learn and how you recognise, confront and change your behaviours. There isn't a magical cure for this any more than there is a magical cure for drinking. Like with drinking, you have to make recovery a priority.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:24 AM on March 2, 2012
Right, well, as an ACA what you do about it is go to AlAnon and/or see a therapist. That's how you learn and how you recognise, confront and change your behaviours. There isn't a magical cure for this any more than there is a magical cure for drinking. Like with drinking, you have to make recovery a priority.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:24 AM on March 2, 2012
Some of the behaviors you describe (controlling, judgmental, anti-social) are actually classic alcoholic behaviors. You may not be matching up with the actual drinking, but you do need to address those attitudes. Unfortunately, this isn't the sort of thing that you can simply remedy over the course of a coffee break - no matter how you tackle it, it's going to take some time and dedication on your part.
If I had to suggest one non-therapy non-group activity (which are actually my top two suggestions, btw), it would be to start keeping a list of unhelpful behaviors you exhibit, then asking yourself in all honesty what might lie behind those. That means acknowledging a lot of things about your personality that you might not be happy admitting to yourself. We learn by doing, so when you catch yourself in mid-offense, stop, take a break, and honestly apologize. Rinse, and repeat for ever after.
posted by Gilbert at 11:28 AM on March 2, 2012
If I had to suggest one non-therapy non-group activity (which are actually my top two suggestions, btw), it would be to start keeping a list of unhelpful behaviors you exhibit, then asking yourself in all honesty what might lie behind those. That means acknowledging a lot of things about your personality that you might not be happy admitting to yourself. We learn by doing, so when you catch yourself in mid-offense, stop, take a break, and honestly apologize. Rinse, and repeat for ever after.
posted by Gilbert at 11:28 AM on March 2, 2012
Reading your updates I see that you don't have a problem with alcohol so my advice is a bit off target - but I will reiterate the important part: Go to Al-Anon or ACOA. You don't have to say one word. Just sit there. I can't tell you how helpful it's been to me. I was super uncomfortable at the beginning but I have a really great support system as a result of those meetings and have met some wonderful people I would have never known otherwise.
You could also try ordering the Al-Anon Daily Reader and taking ten minutes a day to read the page and think about it a bit, or maybe write on it if you feel like you need to be doing something more active. I know all this stuff seems really cheesy but it's so helpful in recognizing patterns of behavior even beyond what you're concerned about now, and helping you realize you aren't alone in the way you feel and act as a result of your upbringing.
posted by something something at 11:32 AM on March 2, 2012
You could also try ordering the Al-Anon Daily Reader and taking ten minutes a day to read the page and think about it a bit, or maybe write on it if you feel like you need to be doing something more active. I know all this stuff seems really cheesy but it's so helpful in recognizing patterns of behavior even beyond what you're concerned about now, and helping you realize you aren't alone in the way you feel and act as a result of your upbringing.
posted by something something at 11:32 AM on March 2, 2012
> http://www.ministryhealth.net/mh_articles/053_thirteen_ways_to_recognize_acoa.html
Honestly, that link reads to me like a horoscope. Many ACOA's may display (some or all or the opposite of...) those characteristics, but then many non-ACOA's do also. Basically, I'm not sure of its predictive power, as it just enumerates tons of issues we all face.
For instance, desiring approval and acceptance is a natural part of the human condition. You might have more success dropping the "ACOA" label and just think about the behavior you want to change and then find resources for that.
Example: "6. ACOA/ACDF's may have difficulty having fun and being spontaneous." Sure, but so do a lot of people of various backgrounds. I don't see why the "alcoholic parent" background would provide any extra help in rectifying it. If instead you thought, "How can I be more spontaneous?" and asked that on MeFi, then we might suggest improv classes or something like that.
posted by losvedir at 11:34 AM on March 2, 2012
Honestly, that link reads to me like a horoscope. Many ACOA's may display (some or all or the opposite of...) those characteristics, but then many non-ACOA's do also. Basically, I'm not sure of its predictive power, as it just enumerates tons of issues we all face.
For instance, desiring approval and acceptance is a natural part of the human condition. You might have more success dropping the "ACOA" label and just think about the behavior you want to change and then find resources for that.
Example: "6. ACOA/ACDF's may have difficulty having fun and being spontaneous." Sure, but so do a lot of people of various backgrounds. I don't see why the "alcoholic parent" background would provide any extra help in rectifying it. If instead you thought, "How can I be more spontaneous?" and asked that on MeFi, then we might suggest improv classes or something like that.
posted by losvedir at 11:34 AM on March 2, 2012
My beloved Bear is ACOA, and was a practicing alcoholic himself for many years. I met him when he was a good 10 years into recovery.
Not all ACOA traits are bad, contrary to the rather negative site message to which you linked. I greatly appreciate my Bear's responsibility, loyalty, trustworthiness, and (a quality not listed at the site but very common for ACOAs) his extreme intuitiveness.
You may want to think about hooking up with the folks at this organization. And if that isn't for you, I'd suggest looking at the particular qualities in yourself you've decided you want to change and tackling your behaviors one at a time. All of us are capable of changing the way we deal with the world, but it's a gradual process and needs to be done in chunks to be successful.
posted by bearwife at 11:35 AM on March 2, 2012
Not all ACOA traits are bad, contrary to the rather negative site message to which you linked. I greatly appreciate my Bear's responsibility, loyalty, trustworthiness, and (a quality not listed at the site but very common for ACOAs) his extreme intuitiveness.
You may want to think about hooking up with the folks at this organization. And if that isn't for you, I'd suggest looking at the particular qualities in yourself you've decided you want to change and tackling your behaviors one at a time. All of us are capable of changing the way we deal with the world, but it's a gradual process and needs to be done in chunks to be successful.
posted by bearwife at 11:35 AM on March 2, 2012
I'd like to point out (gently) that feelings of terminal uniqueness (being too special to read books or go to groups), believing you must solve problems on your own, and self-isolation are also classic ACA behaviors. Going to ACOA or CODA meetings is not only about getting tips for getting better, it is direct action. Among other things, these groups allow you to practice healthy relationships in the group itself.
posted by Wordwoman at 11:36 AM on March 2, 2012
posted by Wordwoman at 11:36 AM on March 2, 2012
I went to ACOA meetings and they all seemed like one big pity party to me. I know what you mean about wanting to do something instead of just talk.
A few months ago I heard this
on the radio and something clicked with me. This guy was talking about guided meditation and he said he tries to get people to have a respectful inner dialogue. All of sudden I realized that I had never had a respectful inner dialogue. I've constantly beaten myself up for decades. Some of it's good, mind you, because I've become very driven as a result, but constantly beating myself up is tiring and dispiriting and has probably stifled me from reaching my full potential. I haven't tried the guided meditation (although after hearing this guy talk I now give it credit and might like to try it where as before I would have thought of it as nambi pambi BS). But I'm working on having a respectful inner dialogue.
posted by bananafish at 11:36 AM on March 2, 2012
A few months ago I heard this
on the radio and something clicked with me. This guy was talking about guided meditation and he said he tries to get people to have a respectful inner dialogue. All of sudden I realized that I had never had a respectful inner dialogue. I've constantly beaten myself up for decades. Some of it's good, mind you, because I've become very driven as a result, but constantly beating myself up is tiring and dispiriting and has probably stifled me from reaching my full potential. I haven't tried the guided meditation (although after hearing this guy talk I now give it credit and might like to try it where as before I would have thought of it as nambi pambi BS). But I'm working on having a respectful inner dialogue.
posted by bananafish at 11:36 AM on March 2, 2012
Lots of great stuff here - @Wordwoman, thank you especially for pointing that out. You're absolutely right.
I gotz reading to do. Keep it coming, I knew you folks would have good ideas.
posted by thrasher at 11:39 AM on March 2, 2012
I gotz reading to do. Keep it coming, I knew you folks would have good ideas.
posted by thrasher at 11:39 AM on March 2, 2012
Yes. Mindfulness type meditation.
A daily practice can really help you change things, catch yourself in the moment to reign in negative reactions and tendencies. And definitely it will help you improve your inner monologue.
Meditation. Download a few apps or guided meditations from iTunes to start.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 11:45 AM on March 2, 2012
A daily practice can really help you change things, catch yourself in the moment to reign in negative reactions and tendencies. And definitely it will help you improve your inner monologue.
Meditation. Download a few apps or guided meditations from iTunes to start.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 11:45 AM on March 2, 2012
You make the time, and you go to therapy. Or you don't, and that's okay too. It's your life, and if you're not hurting other people then you can live it how you want.
But as someone who has a lot of your behaviors, one of the best things I've done for myself is to commit to going to therapy every week. Even when I don't want to. Even when I don't think I have anything to talk about. Come to think of it, I almost never want to go to therapy, but I'm almost always glad I've gone, afterwards.
I'm not trying to bully you or push you or say you're bad or wrong for not wanting to go. There are people who get healthy without therapy. They find their peace running long distances or washing dishes in the soup kitchen or praying the rosary or whatever. And maybe you're one of those people, too. But if you're not, therapy with a good therapist is what it means to work on yourself and how you work.
posted by gauche at 11:51 AM on March 2, 2012
But as someone who has a lot of your behaviors, one of the best things I've done for myself is to commit to going to therapy every week. Even when I don't want to. Even when I don't think I have anything to talk about. Come to think of it, I almost never want to go to therapy, but I'm almost always glad I've gone, afterwards.
I'm not trying to bully you or push you or say you're bad or wrong for not wanting to go. There are people who get healthy without therapy. They find their peace running long distances or washing dishes in the soup kitchen or praying the rosary or whatever. And maybe you're one of those people, too. But if you're not, therapy with a good therapist is what it means to work on yourself and how you work.
posted by gauche at 11:51 AM on March 2, 2012
Also, good for you for wanting to change. That's a tough first step sometimes.
posted by gauche at 11:52 AM on March 2, 2012
posted by gauche at 11:52 AM on March 2, 2012
One thing I've done in addition to therapy is journaling - online, privately, in a few minutes here or there - about how an interaction went Not Optimally, and how I might do it differently next time.
Hypothetical example:
What happened: I got really controlling with my friend about how she should go to the doctor.
Why that's problematic: She got really defensive and angry with me for being so bossypants.
What I'd do differently: Tell her that she should go to the doctor, and then let it go, reminding myself that she's a grown-up and gets to make her own choices and maybe I should pay more attention to the things I want to change in my own life instead of trying to control hers.
I spend a lot of time stopping myself and reminding myself that the person I'm interacting with is a grown-up who gets to make their own decisions. You may find other similar reminders help you, too.
posted by ldthomps at 11:52 AM on March 2, 2012
Hypothetical example:
What happened: I got really controlling with my friend about how she should go to the doctor.
Why that's problematic: She got really defensive and angry with me for being so bossypants.
What I'd do differently: Tell her that she should go to the doctor, and then let it go, reminding myself that she's a grown-up and gets to make her own choices and maybe I should pay more attention to the things I want to change in my own life instead of trying to control hers.
I spend a lot of time stopping myself and reminding myself that the person I'm interacting with is a grown-up who gets to make their own decisions. You may find other similar reminders help you, too.
posted by ldthomps at 11:52 AM on March 2, 2012
but I think tying them to your parents may be a red herring that gets in the way of getting it done.
I'm an 100% with COD. What you really need to focus on are identifying things you want or need to change and then working from there.
If it looks, walks and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck There are all kinds of waterfowl and right now, as far as we know, you are the only who sees the waddle. It would be really helpful for you to get a disinterested view of your way of being - like a therapist.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 12:05 PM on March 2, 2012
I'm an 100% with COD. What you really need to focus on are identifying things you want or need to change and then working from there.
If it looks, walks and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck There are all kinds of waterfowl and right now, as far as we know, you are the only who sees the waddle. It would be really helpful for you to get a disinterested view of your way of being - like a therapist.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 12:05 PM on March 2, 2012
Those suggesting "hey, just ignore the issues related to the parents" -- please reread thrasher's first comment:
posted by artlung at 12:14 PM on March 2, 2012
For additional information, my mother is still in the throes of her alcoholism dramas and things are very tense between us. My dad didn't stop drinking but seems to be managing his intake pretty well over the last 7-8 years. My stepdad died years ago, I didn't talk to him after I was 19 (I'm 38 now.)Regardless of whether you think it's not useful to think about some of the issues through the lens of parents, the issues are there and it sounds like the OP wants to work on them. Your point of view is valid, but "just work on yourself" doesn't appear to address the OP's situation fully, particularly:
"I'm not suggesting you shouldn't work on improving the issues if they bother you, but I think tying them to your parents may be a red herring that gets in the way of getting it done."I think the OP has done hard work identifying a link and overlap between certain patterns and what people have learned before. It's not unhelpful to point out resources along that path. There's a reason organizations like ACA, Al Anon, and Coda exist, and it's not merely about pity party. My experience is that these meetings focus on action items one can do to affect positive change for yourself, irrespective of the substance problems of family members.
posted by artlung at 12:14 PM on March 2, 2012
Insight meditation helped me; the podcasts at AudioDhama make it easy to understand.
You might also benefit from meditations designed to increase compassion for yourself and others. I like this guy.
posted by ceiba at 12:21 PM on March 2, 2012
You might also benefit from meditations designed to increase compassion for yourself and others. I like this guy.
posted by ceiba at 12:21 PM on March 2, 2012
I think what I am surprised about is how vigilant - perhaps mindful is a better word, I need to be about taking care of myself. I almost surround sound myself with small go-tos in little moments I have free. I download articles on mindfulness on my ipad to read when I have a moment before a meeting, or on the bus, and before that I would just put a cover on a book, or print off an article for the week - maybe some Pema Chodron that I would reread.
I find that consistently topping up on thoughtful words and actions helps me navigate the unexpected grar that happens everyday. And if I don't, well then the outcomes of making 30 small unhealthy choices is pretty big. I judge, I try to be mindful that I am judging. But the reminder to be conscious of my behavior is often in the articles that I read - and that feels really really helpful and supportive.
posted by anitanita at 12:45 PM on March 2, 2012
I find that consistently topping up on thoughtful words and actions helps me navigate the unexpected grar that happens everyday. And if I don't, well then the outcomes of making 30 small unhealthy choices is pretty big. I judge, I try to be mindful that I am judging. But the reminder to be conscious of my behavior is often in the articles that I read - and that feels really really helpful and supportive.
posted by anitanita at 12:45 PM on March 2, 2012
I'm like you, and one of the best things I've done is listen to all of Loveline. Seriously.
Once I started hearing what other people like me sound like, I gained the ability to notice when my thoughts were leading me in the same direction. And I'm able to see when I'm acting or thinking like an ACA/addict before it happens or when it happens, rather than only in retrospect.
There's a 40GB torrent out there with 4 years or so of the show - highly recommended.
posted by coolguymichael at 1:23 PM on March 2, 2012
Once I started hearing what other people like me sound like, I gained the ability to notice when my thoughts were leading me in the same direction. And I'm able to see when I'm acting or thinking like an ACA/addict before it happens or when it happens, rather than only in retrospect.
There's a 40GB torrent out there with 4 years or so of the show - highly recommended.
posted by coolguymichael at 1:23 PM on March 2, 2012
Artlung, the OP cites a pretty weak link as the reason for this fear. The question isn't about dealing with the parents and their issues, it's about thrasher changing thrasher's own behavior.
I know that upon first reading the question, I was struck by the "I've just discovered a lump and the Internet says it's cancer!!!!" tone. For that reason and because healthy is healthy, I suggested getting an assessing from someone before leaping into the idea that certain behaviors are purvasive and must be carved out.
Also, the resistance to therapy was kind of a flag for me - when I see that up close, it's usually from people who are against introspection. That's hard to get past without some kind of structure (such as workbooks or a therapist.)
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:35 PM on March 2, 2012
I know that upon first reading the question, I was struck by the "I've just discovered a lump and the Internet says it's cancer!!!!" tone. For that reason and because healthy is healthy, I suggested getting an assessing from someone before leaping into the idea that certain behaviors are purvasive and must be carved out.
Also, the resistance to therapy was kind of a flag for me - when I see that up close, it's usually from people who are against introspection. That's hard to get past without some kind of structure (such as workbooks or a therapist.)
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:35 PM on March 2, 2012
How do you know the issues you are concerned about have anything to do with growing up with alcoholic parents? Nothing about anything you listed is unique, or as far as I know, even correlated with growing up in a family with alcoholic parents
Nthing this. My strong understanding is that ACoA's 12-step philosophy (and 12-step philosophy in general) is far more ideologically-driven than scientifically or reality based. I would strongly recommend therapy with a qualified psychologist if you have interpersonal issues that you'd like to change, or if you are suffering in any way. But I cannot recommend labeling yourself as some inherently and inevitably damaged person who needs eternal "recovery" because of who your parents are.
Please keep in mind that 12-step organizations are by definition and self-description, "forever non-professional." Consider seeing a professional instead.
posted by RRgal at 1:46 PM on March 2, 2012
Nthing this. My strong understanding is that ACoA's 12-step philosophy (and 12-step philosophy in general) is far more ideologically-driven than scientifically or reality based. I would strongly recommend therapy with a qualified psychologist if you have interpersonal issues that you'd like to change, or if you are suffering in any way. But I cannot recommend labeling yourself as some inherently and inevitably damaged person who needs eternal "recovery" because of who your parents are.
Please keep in mind that 12-step organizations are by definition and self-description, "forever non-professional." Consider seeing a professional instead.
posted by RRgal at 1:46 PM on March 2, 2012
MeFi is something I can do for a couple minutes at a time while at work, etc. Can't really read a book or go to counseling when I'm waiting for a meeting at my office to start. I can get a bunch of answers from a bunch of different viewpoints over a few days on MeFi. MeFi is free(ish). The people at MeFi may or may not be pros, but neither necessarily are the people at meetings. Etcetera.
You are important enough that you deserve time to work through your issues. You deserve at least an hour a week to work on yourself. You don't have to fit that in to a couple minutes at a time between other activities. You'll get out of this what you put into it.
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:04 PM on March 2, 2012
You are important enough that you deserve time to work through your issues. You deserve at least an hour a week to work on yourself. You don't have to fit that in to a couple minutes at a time between other activities. You'll get out of this what you put into it.
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:04 PM on March 2, 2012
Yeah, the ACOA stuff is ridden with pseudoscience and horoscope like overgeneralizations. It does suck growing up with active alcoholic or addicted parents but if you want to get better, it's probably better to focus on particular problems that are causing issues in your life now. Most of the qualities that people claim are "addict behavior" or "ACOA behavior" are more accurately classified as "human behavior," sometimes exaggerated, sometimes not.
Also, hidden in the notion of co dependence are a bunch of ideas that actually don't make sense. For example, the idea that we're supposed to be independent. Nope— we didn't evolve to live alone or to not care about what others think because that would likely kill us. We learn to love by loving, not by going off and learning to love ourselves. So, focus on specific problems that are causing issues in your life and research the best therapies/ways of coping with them and don't worry about the ACOA stuff except in terms of dealing with their addictions.
And, for God's sake, don't take any advice from Dr. Drew. he's utterly clueless on addiction and has given advice repeatedly that was outdated in the 1980's (for example, that people should not be on maintenance with opioids: that led to 2 patient deaths).
posted by Maias at 4:11 PM on March 2, 2012
Also, hidden in the notion of co dependence are a bunch of ideas that actually don't make sense. For example, the idea that we're supposed to be independent. Nope— we didn't evolve to live alone or to not care about what others think because that would likely kill us. We learn to love by loving, not by going off and learning to love ourselves. So, focus on specific problems that are causing issues in your life and research the best therapies/ways of coping with them and don't worry about the ACOA stuff except in terms of dealing with their addictions.
And, for God's sake, don't take any advice from Dr. Drew. he's utterly clueless on addiction and has given advice repeatedly that was outdated in the 1980's (for example, that people should not be on maintenance with opioids: that led to 2 patient deaths).
posted by Maias at 4:11 PM on March 2, 2012
Blog that is helpful: GuessWhatNormalIs
Books: the popular adult children books by Janet G. Woititz and others.
Healing the Shame That Binds You by John Bradshaw
I also recommend this book on forgiveness by Sidney and Suzanne Simon.
I am an adult child. I embarrass easily (getting a lot better). I judge myself unmercifully and therefore judge others harshly. I tend to be uptight, responsible, and super worried about doing the wrong thing. I always second-guessed myself, didn't feel normal, had a difficult time making decisions, had trouble with relationships and intimacy, was angry, irritable, even rageful, had co-dependent behaviors, didn't like myself, always thought I was less than, not good enough, questioned by intelligence and abilities, tend to isolate, etc.
For the people who suggest that alcoholic parents may have nothing to do with it, sorry, but they are wrong. I'm not telling you to go around blaming your parents or attaching a label to yourself. However, growing up in an alcoholic home has much to do with your present dysfunctional behaviors. All families, with or without alcohol, are dysfunctional to a degree. Adult children from very dysfunctional families (even without addiction) often have the same symptoms of adult children of alcoholics.
My advice to you:
You are in recovery. It isn't going to be easy. You need to mourn your crappy childhood. It even helps to get angry. Get angry, get sad, grieve. It's part of the healing process. Maybe you have already been angry and sad. Now you can do the work.
Be very careful about how you deal with your anger. It helps to journal and to talk with sober, trustworthy, loving friends. Please whatever you do, I repeat whatever you do, do not list your grievances to your parents. They cannot help you. You must help yourself. However angry, sad, or filled with rage you may become, do not lash out or blame your parents. If they are still drinking they won't apologize. If they are sober they probably won't apologize. If they happen to apologize it won't give you any relief or comfort. Trust me. Many adult children who are still in victim mode want to punish their parents. They want them to know how terrible of a job they did. They want to blame.
As an adult you must start acting like one. Confronting them for your shitty childhood is your inner child expecting them to fix what they can't fix. What's done is done and there is no going back. If you remain angry, contemptuous and resentful, you are giving them so much power over your adult life. You know that they don't have power over your adult life. Stop acting like it. This is what a therapist has told me and I found it so helpful. I feel ashamed that I will be 40 this year and I've been holding all this resentment and allowing them to control me, when they really weren't. I just used them as an excuse. I got something out of remaining so angry. That was my fault and I feel terrible for not knowing this 15 years ago. My life could have been so much better. I feel bad but I'm not beating myself up over it. I am looking forward and glad I realized it now before I am 50. Maybe you don't behave like a victim. I did. It's common when you have alcoholic parents. I think it may be common to stay in child mode when you had alcoholic parents because alcoholics are stuck in child mode. Alcoholics have little room for personal growth.
Even though I hate to think it, I was behaving like my alcoholic parent by being addicted to my anger. Alcoholics use alcohol to stay in a constant state of victimhood. Alcoholics are always looking for excuses to keep drinking. Alcoholic parents are always looking for clues that their children hate them so they have an excuse to hate themselves and therefore have an excuse to keep drinking. Alcoholics are always looking for reasons to justify their drinking. Adult children also may exhibit these behaviors and look for excuses to justify their behavior. I was angry. I use the word "was" lightly. I am still healing. I am still working to be a better adult who doesn't remain an angry, sad, victim.
Create healthy boundaries. Your parents don't have the ability to effect your life now that you are an adult. Yeah, it was hellish growing up but that is over and now you must take full responsibility for your life.
Do what you can do value yourself always. Love yourself. You have to. Go easy on yourself. You are okay and there is no such thing as normal.
Don't ever think you are a special case. I had this habit of thinking things about my peers or about people just walking around the store: "Those people aren't like me." "They didn't have it bad like I did." "They don't understand what kind of life I had. I'm not normal." Many, many people had crappy childhoods. This kind of thinking is not rational and reeks of a victim mentality. Millions of people had it worse than I did. Millions had it worse than you. Don't keep any secrets. Talk about your life and your "secrets" to trusting friends and loved ones. The more you talk, the less your shame. The more you talk, the less alone you will feel. We all have pain and trauma.
Yes to keeping a journal. Yes to talk therapy and yes to some self-help but proceed with caution when it comes to self-help. Some self-help can be detrimental in my opinion. I read Toxic Parents and all I did was become very self-obsessed with my anger. Be very careful about becoming self-obsessed. If you create a I Hate You story in your head it can be very destructive. Sometimes we are not capable of the insight professionals have so I would highly recommend finding a professional therapist.
You must break up your therapy and healing with stuff you enjoy. It is very important to do have fun and not be so heavy all of the time. It is very important to not remain in constant state of suffering while you are going through this crap. I find a good schedule for my healing is once a week therapy session, writing in my journal regularly. For the remaining time, I try to enjoy and love myself and others as much as possible. At first, when you are reading self help and blogs, and talking with a therapist, you are going to feel like crap. Remember to have fun times and not take yourself too seriously. Hang out with friends regularly. Read exciting novels. Pamper yourself. Pick up a hobby. Go to the movies. Play games. Go bowling, etc. If you do go to a therapist, skip the self-help and blogs unless your therapist recommends reading. It can be a bit much, at least it was for me.
Be very kind to your loved ones. Be very kind to yourself. If you have a SO, don't be afraid to be vulnerable.
Feel free to send me a message any time if you have any questions or want to talk. I am by no means an expert but I can relate.
Good luck.
posted by Fairchild at 5:53 PM on March 2, 2012
Books: the popular adult children books by Janet G. Woititz and others.
Healing the Shame That Binds You by John Bradshaw
I also recommend this book on forgiveness by Sidney and Suzanne Simon.
I am an adult child. I embarrass easily (getting a lot better). I judge myself unmercifully and therefore judge others harshly. I tend to be uptight, responsible, and super worried about doing the wrong thing. I always second-guessed myself, didn't feel normal, had a difficult time making decisions, had trouble with relationships and intimacy, was angry, irritable, even rageful, had co-dependent behaviors, didn't like myself, always thought I was less than, not good enough, questioned by intelligence and abilities, tend to isolate, etc.
For the people who suggest that alcoholic parents may have nothing to do with it, sorry, but they are wrong. I'm not telling you to go around blaming your parents or attaching a label to yourself. However, growing up in an alcoholic home has much to do with your present dysfunctional behaviors. All families, with or without alcohol, are dysfunctional to a degree. Adult children from very dysfunctional families (even without addiction) often have the same symptoms of adult children of alcoholics.
My advice to you:
You are in recovery. It isn't going to be easy. You need to mourn your crappy childhood. It even helps to get angry. Get angry, get sad, grieve. It's part of the healing process. Maybe you have already been angry and sad. Now you can do the work.
Be very careful about how you deal with your anger. It helps to journal and to talk with sober, trustworthy, loving friends. Please whatever you do, I repeat whatever you do, do not list your grievances to your parents. They cannot help you. You must help yourself. However angry, sad, or filled with rage you may become, do not lash out or blame your parents. If they are still drinking they won't apologize. If they are sober they probably won't apologize. If they happen to apologize it won't give you any relief or comfort. Trust me. Many adult children who are still in victim mode want to punish their parents. They want them to know how terrible of a job they did. They want to blame.
As an adult you must start acting like one. Confronting them for your shitty childhood is your inner child expecting them to fix what they can't fix. What's done is done and there is no going back. If you remain angry, contemptuous and resentful, you are giving them so much power over your adult life. You know that they don't have power over your adult life. Stop acting like it. This is what a therapist has told me and I found it so helpful. I feel ashamed that I will be 40 this year and I've been holding all this resentment and allowing them to control me, when they really weren't. I just used them as an excuse. I got something out of remaining so angry. That was my fault and I feel terrible for not knowing this 15 years ago. My life could have been so much better. I feel bad but I'm not beating myself up over it. I am looking forward and glad I realized it now before I am 50. Maybe you don't behave like a victim. I did. It's common when you have alcoholic parents. I think it may be common to stay in child mode when you had alcoholic parents because alcoholics are stuck in child mode. Alcoholics have little room for personal growth.
Even though I hate to think it, I was behaving like my alcoholic parent by being addicted to my anger. Alcoholics use alcohol to stay in a constant state of victimhood. Alcoholics are always looking for excuses to keep drinking. Alcoholic parents are always looking for clues that their children hate them so they have an excuse to hate themselves and therefore have an excuse to keep drinking. Alcoholics are always looking for reasons to justify their drinking. Adult children also may exhibit these behaviors and look for excuses to justify their behavior. I was angry. I use the word "was" lightly. I am still healing. I am still working to be a better adult who doesn't remain an angry, sad, victim.
Create healthy boundaries. Your parents don't have the ability to effect your life now that you are an adult. Yeah, it was hellish growing up but that is over and now you must take full responsibility for your life.
Do what you can do value yourself always. Love yourself. You have to. Go easy on yourself. You are okay and there is no such thing as normal.
Don't ever think you are a special case. I had this habit of thinking things about my peers or about people just walking around the store: "Those people aren't like me." "They didn't have it bad like I did." "They don't understand what kind of life I had. I'm not normal." Many, many people had crappy childhoods. This kind of thinking is not rational and reeks of a victim mentality. Millions of people had it worse than I did. Millions had it worse than you. Don't keep any secrets. Talk about your life and your "secrets" to trusting friends and loved ones. The more you talk, the less your shame. The more you talk, the less alone you will feel. We all have pain and trauma.
Yes to keeping a journal. Yes to talk therapy and yes to some self-help but proceed with caution when it comes to self-help. Some self-help can be detrimental in my opinion. I read Toxic Parents and all I did was become very self-obsessed with my anger. Be very careful about becoming self-obsessed. If you create a I Hate You story in your head it can be very destructive. Sometimes we are not capable of the insight professionals have so I would highly recommend finding a professional therapist.
You must break up your therapy and healing with stuff you enjoy. It is very important to do have fun and not be so heavy all of the time. It is very important to not remain in constant state of suffering while you are going through this crap. I find a good schedule for my healing is once a week therapy session, writing in my journal regularly. For the remaining time, I try to enjoy and love myself and others as much as possible. At first, when you are reading self help and blogs, and talking with a therapist, you are going to feel like crap. Remember to have fun times and not take yourself too seriously. Hang out with friends regularly. Read exciting novels. Pamper yourself. Pick up a hobby. Go to the movies. Play games. Go bowling, etc. If you do go to a therapist, skip the self-help and blogs unless your therapist recommends reading. It can be a bit much, at least it was for me.
Be very kind to your loved ones. Be very kind to yourself. If you have a SO, don't be afraid to be vulnerable.
Feel free to send me a message any time if you have any questions or want to talk. I am by no means an expert but I can relate.
Good luck.
posted by Fairchild at 5:53 PM on March 2, 2012
And I can write a book on self-pity. You may or may not have self-pity. I had plenty of it and it is so damaging.
One thing to remember and to know without a doubt is that you can do anything. You can do anything you want to do. Nobody is controlling you. There are not limits and there is no reason to fear.
posted by Fairchild at 6:03 PM on March 2, 2012
One thing to remember and to know without a doubt is that you can do anything. You can do anything you want to do. Nobody is controlling you. There are not limits and there is no reason to fear.
posted by Fairchild at 6:03 PM on March 2, 2012
If you are thinking you might be willing to check out a 12-step program (and I know several people who have found them very valuable, even if they didn't buy into the whole program), I have seen a number of posts from people who prefered Alanon to ACOA. Do a search on the AskMeFi and you will find lots of stories of what others have found helpful.
posted by metahawk at 9:29 PM on March 2, 2012
posted by metahawk at 9:29 PM on March 2, 2012
I'm about to do the Hoffman Process next month -- I've heard so many amazing things about it and seen changes in friends that it's inspired. It's all about unlearning the negative traits one inherits from one's parents.
posted by graytona at 11:09 PM on March 2, 2012
posted by graytona at 11:09 PM on March 2, 2012
I'm about to do the Hoffman Process next month -- I've heard so many amazing things about it
The Hoffman process is a LGAT (Large Group Awareness Training) conducted by people with no license or training in psychology, and whose president/CEO has his degree in theatre (!) and was on the board of directors for Lifespring/est (and was a top aide to Werner Ehrhard). Hoffman has no accountability and can do damage to people, particularly those with emotional issues which are not being treated. Rick Ross has had discussions about it in his forum. Again, for a safe and accountable setting to resolve psychological issues, I would recommend therapy with a qualified, licensed professional. Hoffman currently charges about $4200 US for an 8-day "retreat." For that price you can get a year of real therapy.
posted by RRgal at 7:24 AM on March 3, 2012
The Hoffman process is a LGAT (Large Group Awareness Training) conducted by people with no license or training in psychology, and whose president/CEO has his degree in theatre (!) and was on the board of directors for Lifespring/est (and was a top aide to Werner Ehrhard). Hoffman has no accountability and can do damage to people, particularly those with emotional issues which are not being treated. Rick Ross has had discussions about it in his forum. Again, for a safe and accountable setting to resolve psychological issues, I would recommend therapy with a qualified, licensed professional. Hoffman currently charges about $4200 US for an 8-day "retreat." For that price you can get a year of real therapy.
posted by RRgal at 7:24 AM on March 3, 2012
"Large Group Awareness Training"
Don't do this. It's a waste of money and time at best, it turns you into a narcicisst and/or ruins relationships. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. It is absolutely cult programming, just without the overt nefarious undertones.
Anyway, I loved the advice to listen to Loveline. Not because Dr. Drew's advice is great, but because there was something about their call screening process that got people into an "honest" mindset: you could hear the rationalizations, defense mechanisms, codependencies and on and on and on. Hearing people saying things out loud that we all occasionally think really clarifies how dysfunctional that thinking is.
posted by gjc at 7:08 PM on March 3, 2012
Don't do this. It's a waste of money and time at best, it turns you into a narcicisst and/or ruins relationships. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. It is absolutely cult programming, just without the overt nefarious undertones.
Anyway, I loved the advice to listen to Loveline. Not because Dr. Drew's advice is great, but because there was something about their call screening process that got people into an "honest" mindset: you could hear the rationalizations, defense mechanisms, codependencies and on and on and on. Hearing people saying things out loud that we all occasionally think really clarifies how dysfunctional that thinking is.
posted by gjc at 7:08 PM on March 3, 2012
Yes, people can come out of LGAT's far worse than they went in— indeed, some of them have had to pay out large sums to families of people who committed suicide afterwards. They use coercive persuasion techniques best known from the debates on torture (like public humiliation, not letting you know what time it is, food deprivation, sleep deprivation) and they can lead to depression and PTSD. Also, they don't actually work— the studies done on them show that while people are convinced they are better, their behavior typically doesn't actually change much.
posted by Maias at 12:59 PM on March 4, 2012
posted by Maias at 12:59 PM on March 4, 2012
thank you all - I appreciate the input. Fairchild, you've been insightful on my questions on more than one occasion - I will be in touch.
posted by thrasher at 8:47 AM on March 5, 2012
posted by thrasher at 8:47 AM on March 5, 2012
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posted by thrasher at 10:46 AM on March 2, 2012