How to deal with differing feelings about marriage?
February 22, 2024 8:46 AM Subscribe
My partner is conflicted about marriage and it is tearing me apart. Help me find perspective and patience!
So, yes, this is the partner from this Ask. We did formalize our relationship shortly after that, and began officially dating; we live together about half the year. For those who brought it up previously; yes, he does tend to fit the anxious-avoidant attachment style and has a lot of fear that I will leave him; he tends to react to that fear, when it flares up, by distancing himself or by pretending that it would be fine and he would handle it fine.
That knowledge doesn't, however, make it easier to deal with the skittishness around marriage, specifically. When it seemed like it was less *actually* possible/realistic, he initiated and talked about it more: now it *is* possible/realistic, and he is avoiding the idea like the plague. When we explicitly talked about this, there was a lot of "why bring the government into a relationship" and "People should never be forced to be together longer than they want to be". However, when talking about us, I believe that he is very sincere that he wants to be together for the rest of our lives. He's open and interested in us setting up legal trusts to handle our money and inheritances for children together - it's just the idea of marriage specifically that he's balking at.
He does have some trauma around the issue, having had a difficult marriage/divorce previously, and having been cheated on in the past, and I understand that he has a lot of fear of embracing hope. But the sudden rejection of the idea, especially after the previous embrace of it, is leaving *me* feeling rejected, and especially since he's previously been married, making me feel like somehow I'm not measuring up to his ex-wife, or that he doesn't trust *me*, and all sorts of ridiculous other things. I very much want to be married to him; the formalization of marriage as a moral/legal/social bond is more important to me than the financial entanglements that can be handled by contract. I do understand that not everyone gets married these days, but I'm somewhat old fashioned on this issue; it means a lot to me and would mean a lot to me coming from him specifically. I know that I need to have patience on this issue, but I'm finding it difficult. Help me reframe this or find additional sources of hope/patience/strength!
So, yes, this is the partner from this Ask. We did formalize our relationship shortly after that, and began officially dating; we live together about half the year. For those who brought it up previously; yes, he does tend to fit the anxious-avoidant attachment style and has a lot of fear that I will leave him; he tends to react to that fear, when it flares up, by distancing himself or by pretending that it would be fine and he would handle it fine.
That knowledge doesn't, however, make it easier to deal with the skittishness around marriage, specifically. When it seemed like it was less *actually* possible/realistic, he initiated and talked about it more: now it *is* possible/realistic, and he is avoiding the idea like the plague. When we explicitly talked about this, there was a lot of "why bring the government into a relationship" and "People should never be forced to be together longer than they want to be". However, when talking about us, I believe that he is very sincere that he wants to be together for the rest of our lives. He's open and interested in us setting up legal trusts to handle our money and inheritances for children together - it's just the idea of marriage specifically that he's balking at.
He does have some trauma around the issue, having had a difficult marriage/divorce previously, and having been cheated on in the past, and I understand that he has a lot of fear of embracing hope. But the sudden rejection of the idea, especially after the previous embrace of it, is leaving *me* feeling rejected, and especially since he's previously been married, making me feel like somehow I'm not measuring up to his ex-wife, or that he doesn't trust *me*, and all sorts of ridiculous other things. I very much want to be married to him; the formalization of marriage as a moral/legal/social bond is more important to me than the financial entanglements that can be handled by contract. I do understand that not everyone gets married these days, but I'm somewhat old fashioned on this issue; it means a lot to me and would mean a lot to me coming from him specifically. I know that I need to have patience on this issue, but I'm finding it difficult. Help me reframe this or find additional sources of hope/patience/strength!
First of all: It's fine if you need marriage specifically and isn't something you have to be patient about or compromise on, and the rest of this is not meant to negate that. It's just not something I personally understand so I can't offer a lot of advice on it.
That said: Is there a version of commitment that gets you 95% of what you want and doesn't crash up against his feelings about marriage specifically? I don't know, but for some people the moral/social bond stuff can be just as happily accomplished by a big commitment ceremony in front of family and friends that just doesn't happen to be done in tandem with a marriage license, and some intense work with a lawyer on wills, powers of attorney, etc. gets a good chunk though not all of the legal stuff accomplished. Would that work for you? Would it work for him? I don't know, but I think it's worth at least having some exploratory discussions around. (And if he's too skittish for those discussions either then you have a commitment problem, not a marriage problem.)
Please do not move forward on kids until and unless you've come up with some version of permanent commitment that you are both comfortable and happy about.
posted by Stacey at 9:14 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
That said: Is there a version of commitment that gets you 95% of what you want and doesn't crash up against his feelings about marriage specifically? I don't know, but for some people the moral/social bond stuff can be just as happily accomplished by a big commitment ceremony in front of family and friends that just doesn't happen to be done in tandem with a marriage license, and some intense work with a lawyer on wills, powers of attorney, etc. gets a good chunk though not all of the legal stuff accomplished. Would that work for you? Would it work for him? I don't know, but I think it's worth at least having some exploratory discussions around. (And if he's too skittish for those discussions either then you have a commitment problem, not a marriage problem.)
Please do not move forward on kids until and unless you've come up with some version of permanent commitment that you are both comfortable and happy about.
posted by Stacey at 9:14 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
Waiting like Patience on a monument only works in fairy tales and Shakespeare. He's told you that he does not want to get married. Life may change his mind, but there's no amount of earnest cultivation on your part that will.
I hate to think of you hanging around, as you have been this whole relationship, hoping he will someday act like he actually wants to be with you all the time. You need to take what he's telling you seriously. Is not getting married a dealbreaker for you? It might be, or it might not be, and you don't have to decide this second, but if it is...the deal is broken.
If you decide you can do without being married, which is the only reframing that has a future here, it is very important for you to get your own, independent legal advice before you do anything like merge finances, buy property, or have children with this man. Glib talk of setting up trusts is easy. Signing binding documents is what counts.
posted by praemunire at 9:18 AM on February 22 [17 favorites]
I hate to think of you hanging around, as you have been this whole relationship, hoping he will someday act like he actually wants to be with you all the time. You need to take what he's telling you seriously. Is not getting married a dealbreaker for you? It might be, or it might not be, and you don't have to decide this second, but if it is...the deal is broken.
If you decide you can do without being married, which is the only reframing that has a future here, it is very important for you to get your own, independent legal advice before you do anything like merge finances, buy property, or have children with this man. Glib talk of setting up trusts is easy. Signing binding documents is what counts.
posted by praemunire at 9:18 AM on February 22 [17 favorites]
He does have some trauma around the issue, having had a difficult marriage/divorce previously, and having been cheated on in the past, and I understand that he has a lot of fear of embracing hope.
blah blah blah, who cares about that. He's an adult man and he can seek help for this on his own initiative. You're not required to accept this mopey teenage bullshit as excuses for anything.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 9:23 AM on February 22 [47 favorites]
blah blah blah, who cares about that. He's an adult man and he can seek help for this on his own initiative. You're not required to accept this mopey teenage bullshit as excuses for anything.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 9:23 AM on February 22 [47 favorites]
I am a person who does not ever want to be married. No amount of time or therapy or moping or discussion will change this for me.
If marriage is something that's important to you, you shouldn't be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want to be married.
posted by phunniemee at 9:38 AM on February 22 [27 favorites]
If marriage is something that's important to you, you shouldn't be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want to be married.
posted by phunniemee at 9:38 AM on February 22 [27 favorites]
When it seemed like it was less *actually* possible/realistic, he initiated and talked about it more: now it *is* possible/realistic, and he is avoiding the idea like the plague.
This is a common psychological phenomena where the further someone is from the object of their fear, the more comfortable they are talking/referring/conceptualising it. Conversely, the closer they get, the less comfortable they are.
He is clearly not afraid of you, he is afraid of the idea of marrying again and potentially going through the trauma of what happened to him previously, again.
It's very important you realise that this is not about you at all. You are most likely his safe space. If he loves you as he says, the risk of going through that trauma again at your hands is probably more than he can bare, no matter how far-fetched the idea of cheating on him seems to you. To you marriage equals commitment and love. To him marriage equals heartbreak and pain. Marrying you means risking you cheating on him and breaking his heart. He probably doesn't feel like he could cope with that again. And it doesn't matter if that seems irrational to others, an emotional response is not a rational thing.
None of that is intended to criticise him, as a trauma response is neither voluntary or often understood in the mind of the person going through it. He would most likely not see what he went through as "trauma"; men in particular are often socialised to see trauma as physical, and certainly not something that happens to them emotionally, in the home, by a woman. But trauma is different for everyone and it seems obvious that his response is largely governed by his previous experience of infidelity. This is why you find it hard to get closer than a certain point with him.
The responses provided by others so far seem somewhat lacking in compassion for him, which is fairly common in a lot of men's experience. We're not supposed to have complex feelings and when we do we're often punished for them by both men and women. Suck it up, man up, grow some balls, right? Well, that's what toxic masculinity is and I for one vote against that approach.
Would he be willing to talk through that with a therapist, or even with you? If he's not willing to confront or work on that trauma response then it is going to be difficult if not impossible for you to come to an agreement you're both comfortable with. But give him the chance to confront it and if he chooses to do so support him like you would like to be supported if you were confronting trauma. If he refuses to confront it, then sadly he's making a decision for both of you.
Good luck, I really hope you can both get what you need.
posted by underclocked at 9:39 AM on February 22 [38 favorites]
This is a common psychological phenomena where the further someone is from the object of their fear, the more comfortable they are talking/referring/conceptualising it. Conversely, the closer they get, the less comfortable they are.
He is clearly not afraid of you, he is afraid of the idea of marrying again and potentially going through the trauma of what happened to him previously, again.
It's very important you realise that this is not about you at all. You are most likely his safe space. If he loves you as he says, the risk of going through that trauma again at your hands is probably more than he can bare, no matter how far-fetched the idea of cheating on him seems to you. To you marriage equals commitment and love. To him marriage equals heartbreak and pain. Marrying you means risking you cheating on him and breaking his heart. He probably doesn't feel like he could cope with that again. And it doesn't matter if that seems irrational to others, an emotional response is not a rational thing.
None of that is intended to criticise him, as a trauma response is neither voluntary or often understood in the mind of the person going through it. He would most likely not see what he went through as "trauma"; men in particular are often socialised to see trauma as physical, and certainly not something that happens to them emotionally, in the home, by a woman. But trauma is different for everyone and it seems obvious that his response is largely governed by his previous experience of infidelity. This is why you find it hard to get closer than a certain point with him.
The responses provided by others so far seem somewhat lacking in compassion for him, which is fairly common in a lot of men's experience. We're not supposed to have complex feelings and when we do we're often punished for them by both men and women. Suck it up, man up, grow some balls, right? Well, that's what toxic masculinity is and I for one vote against that approach.
Would he be willing to talk through that with a therapist, or even with you? If he's not willing to confront or work on that trauma response then it is going to be difficult if not impossible for you to come to an agreement you're both comfortable with. But give him the chance to confront it and if he chooses to do so support him like you would like to be supported if you were confronting trauma. If he refuses to confront it, then sadly he's making a decision for both of you.
Good luck, I really hope you can both get what you need.
posted by underclocked at 9:39 AM on February 22 [38 favorites]
The responses provided by others so far seem somewhat lacking in compassion for him
I think OP is genuinely lucky he brought himself to be that honest with her.
Anyone can have complex feelings, but the next step is realizing that the rest of the world, or the rest of your household, isn't required to manage them. (That's where a lot of men who've discovered they have emotions fall down.) It's not clear to me whether he genuinely expects and accepts that she will make her own decision based on the information he's given her or whether he expects to string her along while she performs her role in the scripts she's been given by society telling her that if she just waits and is good enough somehow the man will give her what she wants. Either way, it's better if she accepts what he's telling her as the truth of his feelings, and one that is beyond her power to change.
posted by praemunire at 10:03 AM on February 22 [22 favorites]
I think OP is genuinely lucky he brought himself to be that honest with her.
Anyone can have complex feelings, but the next step is realizing that the rest of the world, or the rest of your household, isn't required to manage them. (That's where a lot of men who've discovered they have emotions fall down.) It's not clear to me whether he genuinely expects and accepts that she will make her own decision based on the information he's given her or whether he expects to string her along while she performs her role in the scripts she's been given by society telling her that if she just waits and is good enough somehow the man will give her what she wants. Either way, it's better if she accepts what he's telling her as the truth of his feelings, and one that is beyond her power to change.
posted by praemunire at 10:03 AM on February 22 [22 favorites]
He does not want to be married. He wants to be with you. Both things can be true.
How you square that circle given your beliefs is going to be a hard decision for you, but it is unambiguous that "marriage" as you envision it is very much not in the cards for him. That, he has made clear, is not going to change, and no amount of waiting it out or patience on your part is going to make that happen. Thus, the decision you need to make is whether the life you've built/are building with him is worth more to you than your stance on marriage is.
That's not something you can crowdsource; you need to take some time and think, deeply, about which of those two things is more important to you. Neither of the two is wrong, but you need to interrogate both and figure out which one makes you more happy when you project out into your future life. Can you envision a life 10 years from now where you're living with this person, super happily, in whatever form that takes, but without the legal/spiritual pact of marriage? Or can you envision a life 10 years from now where you are legally/spiritually bound to another person, because that person would agree to what this person wouldn't?
Again, none of those are "right" or "wrong" answers. But the one thing they have in common is that they depend on you, OP, knowing what you want and what you don't. If you're 100% convinced that marriage is something you must have in your life, there's your answer to this question; end things with this person and find what you want. If you see a life with this person, find a way to make peace with not being married. Either way, you have some work to do. It's not easy, but you need to be honest with yourself about yourself, and not make your answer contingent on what someone else might do at some theoretical point in the future.
posted by pdb at 10:15 AM on February 22 [11 favorites]
How you square that circle given your beliefs is going to be a hard decision for you, but it is unambiguous that "marriage" as you envision it is very much not in the cards for him. That, he has made clear, is not going to change, and no amount of waiting it out or patience on your part is going to make that happen. Thus, the decision you need to make is whether the life you've built/are building with him is worth more to you than your stance on marriage is.
That's not something you can crowdsource; you need to take some time and think, deeply, about which of those two things is more important to you. Neither of the two is wrong, but you need to interrogate both and figure out which one makes you more happy when you project out into your future life. Can you envision a life 10 years from now where you're living with this person, super happily, in whatever form that takes, but without the legal/spiritual pact of marriage? Or can you envision a life 10 years from now where you are legally/spiritually bound to another person, because that person would agree to what this person wouldn't?
Again, none of those are "right" or "wrong" answers. But the one thing they have in common is that they depend on you, OP, knowing what you want and what you don't. If you're 100% convinced that marriage is something you must have in your life, there's your answer to this question; end things with this person and find what you want. If you see a life with this person, find a way to make peace with not being married. Either way, you have some work to do. It's not easy, but you need to be honest with yourself about yourself, and not make your answer contingent on what someone else might do at some theoretical point in the future.
posted by pdb at 10:15 AM on February 22 [11 favorites]
He's just not that into you.
To be more specific, he might be into you enough, because that's something that only you can decide, but he's not into you enough to marry you. I think you're going to have to decide whether his level of commitment as it stands right now is something that works for you. Obviously, circumstances can change and relationships evolve over time, but counting on that is a recipe for heartache and regret.
You may need to make a decision between being with this guy and being married, because I don't think you'll be able to have both.
posted by easy, lucky, free at 10:52 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
To be more specific, he might be into you enough, because that's something that only you can decide, but he's not into you enough to marry you. I think you're going to have to decide whether his level of commitment as it stands right now is something that works for you. Obviously, circumstances can change and relationships evolve over time, but counting on that is a recipe for heartache and regret.
You may need to make a decision between being with this guy and being married, because I don't think you'll be able to have both.
posted by easy, lucky, free at 10:52 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
I don't think this is a time for patience. Or at least your patience should be measured in hours and days, perhaps weeks, not months and years.
I don't think that marriage is the only, or even necessarily the best framework for a long term commitment, but saying things like "people should never be forced to be together longer than they want to be" is kind of troubling to me. Whether this guy has one foot out the door because he's just not that into you, or because he's just not ready to be back in a committed relationship, he's got one foot out the door.
You don't have to be married to make long term plans, but you have to be on the same page about what commitment means. And it doesn't really sound like you two are.
posted by amandabee at 11:03 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
I don't think that marriage is the only, or even necessarily the best framework for a long term commitment, but saying things like "people should never be forced to be together longer than they want to be" is kind of troubling to me. Whether this guy has one foot out the door because he's just not that into you, or because he's just not ready to be back in a committed relationship, he's got one foot out the door.
You don't have to be married to make long term plans, but you have to be on the same page about what commitment means. And it doesn't really sound like you two are.
posted by amandabee at 11:03 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
I know that I need to have patience on this issue, but I'm finding it difficult.
OK so people are pushing back on the idea that you need to have patience, and no, you aren't obligated to be patient. On the other hand, you guys have been together for just about a year? Yeah, you actually do need to be patient. A year of mostly long-distance is not enough for a lot of people to feel comfortable making serious, intentional moves toward marriage. A lot of people, and especially people who aren't comfortable with marriage in general.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:04 AM on February 22 [28 favorites]
OK so people are pushing back on the idea that you need to have patience, and no, you aren't obligated to be patient. On the other hand, you guys have been together for just about a year? Yeah, you actually do need to be patient. A year of mostly long-distance is not enough for a lot of people to feel comfortable making serious, intentional moves toward marriage. A lot of people, and especially people who aren't comfortable with marriage in general.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:04 AM on February 22 [28 favorites]
At the moment, you live together for six months of the year. That isn’t honestly a stable enough base for marriage or kids. I wouldn’t be ready to marry somebody on that basis either.
So you have plans to live together in the future? If not, is that a problem for you? It sounds like he’s quite happy with you as part time casual girlfriend, but not seriously committed relationship. Which is an absolutely fine position for him to take, except that it sounds like you are not happy with that and want a marriage and kids.
It really does not sound like that is on offer here, and maybe you should cut your losses?
posted by tinkletown at 11:05 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
So you have plans to live together in the future? If not, is that a problem for you? It sounds like he’s quite happy with you as part time casual girlfriend, but not seriously committed relationship. Which is an absolutely fine position for him to take, except that it sounds like you are not happy with that and want a marriage and kids.
It really does not sound like that is on offer here, and maybe you should cut your losses?
posted by tinkletown at 11:05 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
I relate to your partner in some ways (I remember reading that previous post and really identifying with a lot of how he seemed to experience/manage the stress of a long-distance relationship). I can say from personal experience that it is possible to be coming from a more avoidant place and do the work to be more relationally skilled and better at managing fears when they show up. But he has to want to do that and take the initiative, and you have to be willing to wait for this long, slow process to take shape and work with how it shows up in the meantime, and you're not required to do that. Your relationship needs are every bit as important as his. I don't personally think you should be especially patient if what he's expressing is that he does not want to be married, full stop. If it's a dealbreaker for you, you may need to make a tough call.
I will also say that after my divorce I was in a long-term relationship in which I expressed strongly and consistently that I never wanted to get married again. Part of that may have been that it was my first relationship post-divorce, but in retrospect it is clear that I did not want to marry that person and wasn't ready to admit that to her or myself. I have not felt the need to adopt that stance in subsequent relationships, and in fact rather liked the idea. This is not a soothing data point, but you're also not being irrational to have the feelings you do about his resistance to marrying you, because sometimes it really does indicate the things you're fearing. Make sure you're not invalidating yourself.
posted by wormtales at 11:09 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
I will also say that after my divorce I was in a long-term relationship in which I expressed strongly and consistently that I never wanted to get married again. Part of that may have been that it was my first relationship post-divorce, but in retrospect it is clear that I did not want to marry that person and wasn't ready to admit that to her or myself. I have not felt the need to adopt that stance in subsequent relationships, and in fact rather liked the idea. This is not a soothing data point, but you're also not being irrational to have the feelings you do about his resistance to marrying you, because sometimes it really does indicate the things you're fearing. Make sure you're not invalidating yourself.
posted by wormtales at 11:09 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
Help me reframe this or find additional sources of hope/patience/strength!
My SO does not wanted to be married. I would like to be. However we have different backgrounds in terms of marriage, so both of our viewpoints are understandable.
We are very pair bonded though, like 100% there for each other and enjoying ourselves and our relationship. I take solace in that which we have instead of the institution of marriage, which is no guarantee of anything long term.
Me advice would be to examine why marriage itself is so important to you, if, all things being equal, it's a good relationship that makes you happy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:11 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
My SO does not wanted to be married. I would like to be. However we have different backgrounds in terms of marriage, so both of our viewpoints are understandable.
We are very pair bonded though, like 100% there for each other and enjoying ourselves and our relationship. I take solace in that which we have instead of the institution of marriage, which is no guarantee of anything long term.
Me advice would be to examine why marriage itself is so important to you, if, all things being equal, it's a good relationship that makes you happy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:11 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: So for some clarity: we've known each other for longer than we have been dating; which is why I'm quite certain I would prefer being in this relationship with him to a different relationship with anyone else. We will be living with each other fulltime within about a year; there are some job-related things (for my career, not his) that we are waiting on. He is very clear about how much he can't wait for this time of frequent separation to be over. His family treats me as his de facto spouse; I'm not worried that the relationship isn't serious. This is more about the emotional impact rather than legal/financial issues - it is important to me because I feel that it speaks to a deeper level of long term commitment and trust than simply wanting to be with someone.
One further thing I should be clear on is that he hasn't been clear that he intends never to marry me: when we talked explicitly about marriage most recently, we talked about reasons why people should or shouldn't get married, and it's only been a few months since he said that he would marry me, though didn't actually propose.
I think that part of what is important to me is the public nature of the commitment. For those of you who are very opposed to marriage or who are with someone who are, can you speak to whether you had some form of this in your relationship?
posted by sockmeamadeus at 11:37 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
One further thing I should be clear on is that he hasn't been clear that he intends never to marry me: when we talked explicitly about marriage most recently, we talked about reasons why people should or shouldn't get married, and it's only been a few months since he said that he would marry me, though didn't actually propose.
I think that part of what is important to me is the public nature of the commitment. For those of you who are very opposed to marriage or who are with someone who are, can you speak to whether you had some form of this in your relationship?
posted by sockmeamadeus at 11:37 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
He's just not that into you.
Getting married is not some prize you get at the top end of being into someone. It is off in a different direction all together.
I was married and I can confidently say that it is something I'll never do again -- and it has nothing to do with the contents of the marriage itself. What I learned is that the marriage arrangement is not for me.
It doesn't matter how "into" someone I get. I've been there, I've done it, and I'm not suited for it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:45 AM on February 22 [12 favorites]
Getting married is not some prize you get at the top end of being into someone. It is off in a different direction all together.
I was married and I can confidently say that it is something I'll never do again -- and it has nothing to do with the contents of the marriage itself. What I learned is that the marriage arrangement is not for me.
It doesn't matter how "into" someone I get. I've been there, I've done it, and I'm not suited for it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:45 AM on February 22 [12 favorites]
"Why bring the government into a relationship" and "People should never be forced to be together longer than they want to be".
"Why bring the government into *our* relationship" and "*I* should never be forced to be together longer than *I* want to be."
I would call your partner on this. You two aren't setting policy for a crowd here, you're speaking very specifically about how you want to relate to each other. Until you get down to your actual feelings about your actual selves you're just having an academic discussion.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:48 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
"Why bring the government into *our* relationship" and "*I* should never be forced to be together longer than *I* want to be."
I would call your partner on this. You two aren't setting policy for a crowd here, you're speaking very specifically about how you want to relate to each other. Until you get down to your actual feelings about your actual selves you're just having an academic discussion.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:48 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
If he was this conflicted about having sex with you, would you accept his conflictedness as the NO it obviously is? Or would you be hanging around pressuring him to have the sex he clearly does not want to have with you?
If he was this conflicted about eating cake, would you accept his conflictedness as the NO it obviously is? Or would you be pressuring him to eat the cake, come on, get over your cake trauma and eat the cake, pretty please, for your sake, eat the cake, come the fuck on, eat the cake, look how long you're willing to wait for him to eat the cake, you're getting impatient, eat it already! - no matter how clear he has made it that he. does. not. want. cake?
Marriage isn't any different from sex or cake. When someone is "conflicted" about marriage, that means NO MARRIAGE. Please respect his NO and stop pressuring him. What you are doing now is a violation of consent.
I would even go so far as to say you need to stop wishing and hoping that he will change his mind. That is a terribly disrespectful attitude to bring into a relationship.
posted by MiraK at 12:13 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
If he was this conflicted about eating cake, would you accept his conflictedness as the NO it obviously is? Or would you be pressuring him to eat the cake, come on, get over your cake trauma and eat the cake, pretty please, for your sake, eat the cake, come the fuck on, eat the cake, look how long you're willing to wait for him to eat the cake, you're getting impatient, eat it already! - no matter how clear he has made it that he. does. not. want. cake?
Marriage isn't any different from sex or cake. When someone is "conflicted" about marriage, that means NO MARRIAGE. Please respect his NO and stop pressuring him. What you are doing now is a violation of consent.
I would even go so far as to say you need to stop wishing and hoping that he will change his mind. That is a terribly disrespectful attitude to bring into a relationship.
posted by MiraK at 12:13 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
But the sudden rejection of the idea, especially after the previous embrace of it, is leaving *me* feeling rejected, and especially since he's previously been married, making me feel like somehow I'm not measuring up to his ex-wife, or that he doesn't trust *me*, and all sorts of ridiculous other things. I very much want to be married to him; the formalization of marriage as a moral/legal/social bond is more important to me than the financial entanglements that can be handled by contract.
By the way, have you ever said these things to him directly? Including the "ridiculous" parts. I was assuming you had during these discussions, but perhaps not? These are not fun or easy conversations, to put it mildly, but you probably shouldn't be getting married to anyone you can't have them with.
posted by praemunire at 12:20 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
By the way, have you ever said these things to him directly? Including the "ridiculous" parts. I was assuming you had during these discussions, but perhaps not? These are not fun or easy conversations, to put it mildly, but you probably shouldn't be getting married to anyone you can't have them with.
posted by praemunire at 12:20 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I can see why this is confusing. He objects to the government being involved, but is willing to sign legal documents. You're saying he can't embrace hope, but he's eager to live together and (possibly?) have kids. Those are mixed messages. Also, a legal, government marriage can be a form of protection for a lower earning spouse and children in the case of divorce (as one example, I have a friend who never married her partner when they had kids, and it's been so interesting to see them navigate their separation and shared parenting/custody without going through the county, which has all sorts of legal guidelines for these things for parents who divorce).
I am someone who was once opposed to the government part of marriage. I didn't like that some people (at that point, straight couples but not gay couples) could have access to government sanctioning of their relationship. Currently I object to the idea that marriage is for romantic partners and only couples. Why can't two friends or three lovers decide to create a legally recognized bond?
Also, the idea that not getting married protects you from emotional upset does seem a bit backwards, since it's perhaps the (likely unspoken) expectations of traditional marriage that might have been the problem. If one person expects it to last forever and the other gives up, is the problem the institution of marriage? Break ups can be terrible even if the government was never involved.
Despite my hesitations, I did decide to get married. Honestly, I think part of my hesitation was around the relationship itself even as I remain conflicted about the institution. I loved (and still love) the idea of a public ceremony and declaration, even without the legal component. It's absolutely possible to have a commitment ceremony with lots of friends and call it a marriage, and no one would even need to know about the legal stuff (and the reverse is possible too, of course; we know folks who get legally married for various reasons and then have formal ceremonies at other times further down the road). What is the part you crave? Be honest with yourself about this. It's okay if it's all of this.
I think it's fine to bring these questions to Ask Metafilter, and I am definitely not scolding you at all for asking for input. But I do think it would be good if you and your partner had some better ways of communicating about these things. These are tough issues! Any skills you develop for better communication will help in all areas of your relationship and future relationships. Is he willing to go to couples therapy to talk about these things?
It's also okay to want a formal, legal marriage, and to decide this is a deal breaker. I think the problem is that you've decided this is the person for you, and you don't want to have deal breakers, but that is maybe giving him lots of space to set the terms, and that's uncomfortable for you.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:52 PM on February 22 [5 favorites]
I am someone who was once opposed to the government part of marriage. I didn't like that some people (at that point, straight couples but not gay couples) could have access to government sanctioning of their relationship. Currently I object to the idea that marriage is for romantic partners and only couples. Why can't two friends or three lovers decide to create a legally recognized bond?
Also, the idea that not getting married protects you from emotional upset does seem a bit backwards, since it's perhaps the (likely unspoken) expectations of traditional marriage that might have been the problem. If one person expects it to last forever and the other gives up, is the problem the institution of marriage? Break ups can be terrible even if the government was never involved.
Despite my hesitations, I did decide to get married. Honestly, I think part of my hesitation was around the relationship itself even as I remain conflicted about the institution. I loved (and still love) the idea of a public ceremony and declaration, even without the legal component. It's absolutely possible to have a commitment ceremony with lots of friends and call it a marriage, and no one would even need to know about the legal stuff (and the reverse is possible too, of course; we know folks who get legally married for various reasons and then have formal ceremonies at other times further down the road). What is the part you crave? Be honest with yourself about this. It's okay if it's all of this.
I think it's fine to bring these questions to Ask Metafilter, and I am definitely not scolding you at all for asking for input. But I do think it would be good if you and your partner had some better ways of communicating about these things. These are tough issues! Any skills you develop for better communication will help in all areas of your relationship and future relationships. Is he willing to go to couples therapy to talk about these things?
It's also okay to want a formal, legal marriage, and to decide this is a deal breaker. I think the problem is that you've decided this is the person for you, and you don't want to have deal breakers, but that is maybe giving him lots of space to set the terms, and that's uncomfortable for you.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:52 PM on February 22 [5 favorites]
My outsiders' perspective is that this seems ripe for couples' therapy. You feel a sense of urgency to get the ball rolling for marriage ASAP and feel ready for that because of your previous friendship with this guy. He doesn't feel ready, which makes sense given you've been only dating a year and half of that has been long distance - plus he's been the victim of physical abuse in previous relationships (based on your previous question) - so, I get why he'd want to wait a bit to see how your relationship develops before making a life-long commitment to marriage.
Anyway, it seems like you might both benefit from a space mediated by a professional to articulate your feelings about each other, about marriage in the abstract, and about an eventual marriage with each other.
posted by coffeecat at 1:36 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Anyway, it seems like you might both benefit from a space mediated by a professional to articulate your feelings about each other, about marriage in the abstract, and about an eventual marriage with each other.
posted by coffeecat at 1:36 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I am one who has a much higher threshold before I start advocating for a breakup than many Mefites. But I have two thoughts about your situation that incline me to that advice, painful as it may be.
First, if you are in a long-distance relationship that has constituted the majority of your relationship together, don't be so sure it's going to work out when it becomes a no-distance relationship. I know any number of people who were in long-distance relationships for years, and then broke up within six months of proximity. Relationships that work in one context oftentimes don't work in a different context, and going from mostly apart to mostly together is a big, big change.
Second, I have several friends who wanted marriage as a life goal, but effectively put themselves up on the shelf for years with men who weren't "Mister Right" but were "Mister Right Now," and in doing so they missed out on any number of potential marriage partners. Now that they are not with a "Mister Right Now" they're finding out that the supply of potential marriage partners is a lot smaller than it used to me, and that many of these are unmarried for good reasons--either because they just don't want marriage, or because they have aspects of their personalities that make them unsuited to marriage (and often relationships in general).
So, if marriage is a life goal for you, I would suggest having this talk with your partner in an frank and forthcoming way. I had a decade-plus unmarried cohabiting committed relationship, and when we broke up I realized that I wanted to be married. So, when Mrs. slkinsey and I started dating I was pretty straightforward in saying that if we weren't married, engaged or heading in that direction after a year, I was going to look elsewhere. It has by no means been easy and we have definitely had some ups and downs, but on balance we have a happy marriage and can't imagine life without one another. That could change some day in the future, of course, but we both hope it doesn't.
posted by slkinsey at 2:47 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
First, if you are in a long-distance relationship that has constituted the majority of your relationship together, don't be so sure it's going to work out when it becomes a no-distance relationship. I know any number of people who were in long-distance relationships for years, and then broke up within six months of proximity. Relationships that work in one context oftentimes don't work in a different context, and going from mostly apart to mostly together is a big, big change.
Second, I have several friends who wanted marriage as a life goal, but effectively put themselves up on the shelf for years with men who weren't "Mister Right" but were "Mister Right Now," and in doing so they missed out on any number of potential marriage partners. Now that they are not with a "Mister Right Now" they're finding out that the supply of potential marriage partners is a lot smaller than it used to me, and that many of these are unmarried for good reasons--either because they just don't want marriage, or because they have aspects of their personalities that make them unsuited to marriage (and often relationships in general).
So, if marriage is a life goal for you, I would suggest having this talk with your partner in an frank and forthcoming way. I had a decade-plus unmarried cohabiting committed relationship, and when we broke up I realized that I wanted to be married. So, when Mrs. slkinsey and I started dating I was pretty straightforward in saying that if we weren't married, engaged or heading in that direction after a year, I was going to look elsewhere. It has by no means been easy and we have definitely had some ups and downs, but on balance we have a happy marriage and can't imagine life without one another. That could change some day in the future, of course, but we both hope it doesn't.
posted by slkinsey at 2:47 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, realistically, in a lot of life paths with partners, the way you deal with differing wants is that unless both people are open to conversation and compromise, then the person who has the most veto power gets what they want. He wants to not marry you. Not now, perhaps never, but he doesn't even want to actively talk about it. He has effectively decided the issue.
The differing feelings that need your attention are your own: given what's so -- that he doesn't want to marry you and doesn't want to talk about it -- what do you want, what are the choices available to you? I have seen this in myself: not wanting to acknowledge a reduced menu of choices, instead I push the location of that choice artificially out on to another person.
My two cents? It sounds like you are an American woman. In your shoes I would go nowhere near any legal or financial agreements without the protections of marriage, especially if you're thinking you'd like to have children. Also, this seems really fast to be talking about this stuff, even if you have known each other for a while. You haven't known each other as partners, as fully divulging and vulnerable people even, in situations of duress, for long at all.
posted by cocoagirl at 4:00 PM on February 22 [6 favorites]
The differing feelings that need your attention are your own: given what's so -- that he doesn't want to marry you and doesn't want to talk about it -- what do you want, what are the choices available to you? I have seen this in myself: not wanting to acknowledge a reduced menu of choices, instead I push the location of that choice artificially out on to another person.
My two cents? It sounds like you are an American woman. In your shoes I would go nowhere near any legal or financial agreements without the protections of marriage, especially if you're thinking you'd like to have children. Also, this seems really fast to be talking about this stuff, even if you have known each other for a while. You haven't known each other as partners, as fully divulging and vulnerable people even, in situations of duress, for long at all.
posted by cocoagirl at 4:00 PM on February 22 [6 favorites]
For those of you who are very opposed to marriage or who are with someone who are, can you speak to whether you had some form of this in your relationship?
No, we haven’t, beyond the obvious “everyone in our lives knows we’re together given that we have been for nearly 25 years” stuff, but also neither of us feels any need for it. If my partner decided tomorrow that he wanted some sort of ceremony/party about publicly declaring our relationship, I’d be bemused but perfectly happy to do it for him. Likewise if he wanted to have some sort of jewelry that signified commitment to each other for us I’d probably be up for that, though I’d likely try to negotiate him into bracelets or rings worn on other fingers than traditional wedding rings. I don’t think I’d die on that hill, though.
posted by Stacey at 4:19 PM on February 22
No, we haven’t, beyond the obvious “everyone in our lives knows we’re together given that we have been for nearly 25 years” stuff, but also neither of us feels any need for it. If my partner decided tomorrow that he wanted some sort of ceremony/party about publicly declaring our relationship, I’d be bemused but perfectly happy to do it for him. Likewise if he wanted to have some sort of jewelry that signified commitment to each other for us I’d probably be up for that, though I’d likely try to negotiate him into bracelets or rings worn on other fingers than traditional wedding rings. I don’t think I’d die on that hill, though.
posted by Stacey at 4:19 PM on February 22
Look, as a woman who has dated more than a couple dudes who are 40+, I am going to be straight with you:
LOOK ELSEWHERE
If you really want to be married, then that needs to be the non-negotiable point. Do not attempt to persuade a lukewarm or avoidant person that he really should marry you! This guy is a classic example of a dude who uses his failed marriage as an justification for anything, that it damaged him irrevocably, blah blah blah. My eyes glazed over and almost rolled back into my head while reading the litany of excuses.
Bull. Shit.
Tell this guy you want to be married. Not today, not tomorrow. But soon. And if he doesn't come to his senses IMMEDIATELY, then break up and move on. Take a few months for yourself, and get back out there.
Best of luck to you.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:30 PM on February 22 [7 favorites]
LOOK ELSEWHERE
If you really want to be married, then that needs to be the non-negotiable point. Do not attempt to persuade a lukewarm or avoidant person that he really should marry you! This guy is a classic example of a dude who uses his failed marriage as an justification for anything, that it damaged him irrevocably, blah blah blah. My eyes glazed over and almost rolled back into my head while reading the litany of excuses.
Bull. Shit.
Tell this guy you want to be married. Not today, not tomorrow. But soon. And if he doesn't come to his senses IMMEDIATELY, then break up and move on. Take a few months for yourself, and get back out there.
Best of luck to you.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:30 PM on February 22 [7 favorites]
There's stuff you need to figure out for yourself. There's stuff he needs to figure out for himself. And there's things you need to figure out together as a couple.
In regards to yourself, I think it can't hurt to interrogate your need for marriage. Maybe with a therapist, maybe on your own. Perhaps you've already really done this inner work and can disregard my advice, but as many people have said here marriage doesn't necessarily equal commitment. Commitment is about showing up for the person you love, sharing the emotional labor of life equally, validation, respect, mutual desire...Those can and do exist without the bonds of marriage. My own long-term relationship is proof of that. Is marriage something I think about and might like, yes, but that would be more of a nice bonus and not something I need to have. It's possible, maybe highly likely, that your partner will never change his mind and that's his prerogative. I doubt any kind of pressure campaign/guilt trip would bring about a sincere change of heart and wouldn't advise it.
Can you change your mind about marriage? You don't have to change your mind, but you should be moving forward without an expectation that he will change his mind. If marriage is a dealbreaker for you, then I think you need to seriously consider this deal as broken.
In regards to your partner, is he still depressed (as stated in your last ask)? What, if anything, has he done/is doing about his emotional life? You don't say much in this new ask about whether any of this has changed. Setting the question of marriage aside, I think it's vital to health and long-term viability of this relationship that your partner be willing to deal with his emotional life and not put it off or put it on you to manage around.
Does he still "he dislikes having 'relationship talks'?" That would be the dealbreaker for me. There is no way any relationship survives one person's unwillingness to communicate. Any long-term relationship is going to have rough patches and if you and your partner can't talk about how these rough patches are impacting you individually or as a couple then, boy...there lies sadness, resentment, and an eventual grinding down that will kill any love. You can't get married without solving for this first!
posted by brookeb at 4:44 PM on February 22 [6 favorites]
In regards to yourself, I think it can't hurt to interrogate your need for marriage. Maybe with a therapist, maybe on your own. Perhaps you've already really done this inner work and can disregard my advice, but as many people have said here marriage doesn't necessarily equal commitment. Commitment is about showing up for the person you love, sharing the emotional labor of life equally, validation, respect, mutual desire...Those can and do exist without the bonds of marriage. My own long-term relationship is proof of that. Is marriage something I think about and might like, yes, but that would be more of a nice bonus and not something I need to have. It's possible, maybe highly likely, that your partner will never change his mind and that's his prerogative. I doubt any kind of pressure campaign/guilt trip would bring about a sincere change of heart and wouldn't advise it.
Can you change your mind about marriage? You don't have to change your mind, but you should be moving forward without an expectation that he will change his mind. If marriage is a dealbreaker for you, then I think you need to seriously consider this deal as broken.
In regards to your partner, is he still depressed (as stated in your last ask)? What, if anything, has he done/is doing about his emotional life? You don't say much in this new ask about whether any of this has changed. Setting the question of marriage aside, I think it's vital to health and long-term viability of this relationship that your partner be willing to deal with his emotional life and not put it off or put it on you to manage around.
Does he still "he dislikes having 'relationship talks'?" That would be the dealbreaker for me. There is no way any relationship survives one person's unwillingness to communicate. Any long-term relationship is going to have rough patches and if you and your partner can't talk about how these rough patches are impacting you individually or as a couple then, boy...there lies sadness, resentment, and an eventual grinding down that will kill any love. You can't get married without solving for this first!
posted by brookeb at 4:44 PM on February 22 [6 favorites]
The differing feelings that need your attention are your own: given what's so -- that he doesn't want to marry you and doesn't want to talk about it -- what do you want, what are the choices available to you? I have seen this in myself: not wanting to acknowledge a reduced menu of choices, instead I push the location of that choice artificially out on to another person.
This is a really smart take from cocoagirl. I do want to point out, however, that some folks think marriage is a bad deal for American women. That doesn't mean you shouldn't want it, of course. But it's a complex institution that doesn't necessarily give us what we hope.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:51 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
This is a really smart take from cocoagirl. I do want to point out, however, that some folks think marriage is a bad deal for American women. That doesn't mean you shouldn't want it, of course. But it's a complex institution that doesn't necessarily give us what we hope.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:51 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
However, when talking about us, I believe that he is very sincere that he wants to be together for the rest of our lives. He's open and interested in us setting up legal trusts to handle our money and inheritances for children together - it's just the idea of marriage specifically that he's balking at.
this is all so idea-heavy and vibes-based that I have to ask to clarify. when you took his hand in yours and said, I love you, will you marry me, or however you did put it — he said No? he has formally and definitively declined your proposal? or you haven’t made it yet?
asking someone to marry you is a time for courage. if you won’t do it without an advance guarantee that he’ll say yes, then you won’t do it.
a man with an ex-wife is a man who knows some very real things about the limited power of marriage to transform or sustain any relationship, and asking him to give his head a shake as it were a snow globe and not-know them anew is a very large request. forgetting or pretending for your sake to forget these things may be harder than learning them was. then again, what is the use of love if not to embolden us to make massive and frankly unrealistic requests of one another.
but you do have to ask. not in the abstract, not philosophically. will you marry me isn’t an on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand, it’s a yes or no.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:00 PM on February 22 [11 favorites]
this is all so idea-heavy and vibes-based that I have to ask to clarify. when you took his hand in yours and said, I love you, will you marry me, or however you did put it — he said No? he has formally and definitively declined your proposal? or you haven’t made it yet?
asking someone to marry you is a time for courage. if you won’t do it without an advance guarantee that he’ll say yes, then you won’t do it.
a man with an ex-wife is a man who knows some very real things about the limited power of marriage to transform or sustain any relationship, and asking him to give his head a shake as it were a snow globe and not-know them anew is a very large request. forgetting or pretending for your sake to forget these things may be harder than learning them was. then again, what is the use of love if not to embolden us to make massive and frankly unrealistic requests of one another.
but you do have to ask. not in the abstract, not philosophically. will you marry me isn’t an on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand, it’s a yes or no.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:00 PM on February 22 [11 favorites]
I have been married, and am about 80% sure I wouldn't do it again. Not that I don't love my partner of three years – who is also divorced – and whom I hope to stay with for a very long time. And it would be nice to find some way to make it more "official" without actual marriage, but I'm not sure what that would look like for me. A commitment ceremony sounds nice but is also kinda like, "hey everybody! We're...still the exact same as before!" Kinda lacks some oomph, for me personally.
I'll be really frank with you. I read your post from last year about this guy. And if someone is making you guess this much about what this or that means, why they're inconsistent in their behavior, and making you pull out their thoughts and feelings like you're pulling teeth, I think you really need to take a cold, hard look at why you want to take on this kind of person in your life. And I phrase it that way on purpose; from the way you describe it, this is not an equal partnership. This is a project. I can tell you firsthand how exhausting and aggravating it will get to be with someone who refuses to do anything about their depression. Being someone's cheerleader is exhausting. Constant reassurance that you're not leaving him is really, really exhausting. And if he's not willing to do the work on his depression for himself, why would you think he'll do it for you?
(He) has a lot of fear that I will leave him; he tends to react to that fear, when it flares up, by distancing himself or by pretending that it would be fine and he would handle it fine.
This type of behavior, along with what you posted before about telling you you'd be better off finding someone else, etc – this is highly manipulative language. Major red flag. Tread very, very carefully in planning any kind of future with this person. I know you've known him for some time before the relationship, but who a person is in a relationship can be light years from who they are as a friend. Judge him only by how he's treating you now.
This man is causing you a large amount of anxiety, and for what? You don't want the same things. And if there's one thing I know for SURE about marriage, you HAVE to want – and proactively work toward – the same things.
posted by Molasses808 at 7:51 PM on February 22 [8 favorites]
I'll be really frank with you. I read your post from last year about this guy. And if someone is making you guess this much about what this or that means, why they're inconsistent in their behavior, and making you pull out their thoughts and feelings like you're pulling teeth, I think you really need to take a cold, hard look at why you want to take on this kind of person in your life. And I phrase it that way on purpose; from the way you describe it, this is not an equal partnership. This is a project. I can tell you firsthand how exhausting and aggravating it will get to be with someone who refuses to do anything about their depression. Being someone's cheerleader is exhausting. Constant reassurance that you're not leaving him is really, really exhausting. And if he's not willing to do the work on his depression for himself, why would you think he'll do it for you?
(He) has a lot of fear that I will leave him; he tends to react to that fear, when it flares up, by distancing himself or by pretending that it would be fine and he would handle it fine.
This type of behavior, along with what you posted before about telling you you'd be better off finding someone else, etc – this is highly manipulative language. Major red flag. Tread very, very carefully in planning any kind of future with this person. I know you've known him for some time before the relationship, but who a person is in a relationship can be light years from who they are as a friend. Judge him only by how he's treating you now.
This man is causing you a large amount of anxiety, and for what? You don't want the same things. And if there's one thing I know for SURE about marriage, you HAVE to want – and proactively work toward – the same things.
posted by Molasses808 at 7:51 PM on February 22 [8 favorites]
To add on to my previous post; I just saw this in your clarification post above:
...he hasn't been clear that he intends never to marry me
Girl. Yes, he has.
posted by Molasses808 at 8:34 PM on February 22 [9 favorites]
...he hasn't been clear that he intends never to marry me
Girl. Yes, he has.
posted by Molasses808 at 8:34 PM on February 22 [9 favorites]
I'm with queenofbythnia on this - propose, and find out what the answer is.
posted by inexorably_forward at 8:36 PM on February 22
posted by inexorably_forward at 8:36 PM on February 22
If he's not ready to face heart-break again, he's not ready to have kids. Have all the compassion in the world for that, but if kids are something you want, let him go.
posted by sohalt at 3:42 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
posted by sohalt at 3:42 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
Seeing your update changes my advice. I would not in a million years be seriously talking about marriage with someone I hadn't lived with full time for at least a year, and pressure around/frequent discussion of the topic would definitely not warm me to the idea. When people have brought up wanting to marry me early in relationships, I process that as 'that's sweet, we are in love' but definitely not 'great we have a plan then.' He has brought up marriage before of his own accord, very recently. If he's not the sharpest emotional crayon in the box, the conversation you had about marriage as a concept, for "people" rather than the two of you, may well have just been that for him; it is just not obvious for some people, especially rational types, to understand the potentially very personal implications of a talk like that and see it as a time when it would be important to offer reassurance.
I think you should say to him: look, marriage is important enough to me that I need to know it is at least on the table in the future. And, having confirmed that, shelve it for a year. Really. It's too soon. Even for you. You're treated as a member of his family, you're on course to be together full time. This is going well. If your own anxiety makes it truly intolerable to not have a promise of for-the-rest-of-our-lives permanence in the meantime, that's a good sign to spend some more time with what's going on for you. Do be clear about your own timeline, and don't hang around forever if things have not turned definitively in that direction once more time has passed. But I'm not hearing that he's a bad partner and you're unhappy, I'm hearing that you're in love and things are progressing in a way that demonstrates seriousness. Unless he tells you directly that it's a no-go, give it some time.
Also, yes, of course you can have a public ceremony without a legal marriage! Source: almost every queer couple that got married before 2015 (and a lot of people even after that). This is a thing. You can have a whole ass wedding if you want, or just a little party. You can tell people about the legal aspects or not. People who love you will want to join you in a public celebration of your commitment either way.
posted by wormtales at 5:25 AM on February 23 [6 favorites]
I think you should say to him: look, marriage is important enough to me that I need to know it is at least on the table in the future. And, having confirmed that, shelve it for a year. Really. It's too soon. Even for you. You're treated as a member of his family, you're on course to be together full time. This is going well. If your own anxiety makes it truly intolerable to not have a promise of for-the-rest-of-our-lives permanence in the meantime, that's a good sign to spend some more time with what's going on for you. Do be clear about your own timeline, and don't hang around forever if things have not turned definitively in that direction once more time has passed. But I'm not hearing that he's a bad partner and you're unhappy, I'm hearing that you're in love and things are progressing in a way that demonstrates seriousness. Unless he tells you directly that it's a no-go, give it some time.
Also, yes, of course you can have a public ceremony without a legal marriage! Source: almost every queer couple that got married before 2015 (and a lot of people even after that). This is a thing. You can have a whole ass wedding if you want, or just a little party. You can tell people about the legal aspects or not. People who love you will want to join you in a public celebration of your commitment either way.
posted by wormtales at 5:25 AM on February 23 [6 favorites]
I’m still going to disagree that talking about marriage, in general and as a long-term shape for a committed relationship, at 6 months after living together even part-time, is early. Especially in a midlife relationship.
I don’t understand why it’s so hard to take statements at face value. It’s not respectful, IMO, to write his response off as if it’s a mental illness. People with PTSD can mean wheat they say. This conversation about marriage being just government interference or whatever does not sounds like a triggered or emotional situation. And given that he was aware he was taking to his girlfriend, I think you owe him to take it seriously. But I would also take your own goals and desires seriously.
When I was dating my husband, he was under religious vows and we were sneaking around. At around the 5-6 month mark, I knew my feelings were getting serious. So I said to him look, I don’t want to pressure you about your vocation. But I know myself, and my feelings are getting serious. So I can keep going as we’re going a few more months, but after that, if you’re not sure, I may need to end things to date other people.
He told the order that night. He was sent to Italy for 9 weeks. We married a year later and this year is 30 years. Part of why our marriage is that strong is that we are able to tell each other what we really need and want. And hear each other. Not all our decisions have been so straightforward, and we’ve both compromised often, sometimes painfully. But oh my god, what I want for people is to be clear and be heard, for real. It’s one of the great joys of my life. And it doesn’t kick in suddenly at 2 years or after you have a ring on your finger. It is a way of relating that permeates things.
Now here’s the thing: I said the right thing in that situation. But I was raised in a family where truth was dangerous (and fluid.) so I had other times I said things I didn’t mean. My husband took those seriously too - and I learned not to make stupid statements if I didn’t mean them.
As I said above, I have no strong feelings about whether you two should or should not end up married. But it seems like he is telling you important information and you should share the same.
I love queenofbythnia’s solution. It’s elegant. It might be a little early for it, but it’s a really good way forward.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:27 AM on February 23 [9 favorites]
I don’t understand why it’s so hard to take statements at face value. It’s not respectful, IMO, to write his response off as if it’s a mental illness. People with PTSD can mean wheat they say. This conversation about marriage being just government interference or whatever does not sounds like a triggered or emotional situation. And given that he was aware he was taking to his girlfriend, I think you owe him to take it seriously. But I would also take your own goals and desires seriously.
When I was dating my husband, he was under religious vows and we were sneaking around. At around the 5-6 month mark, I knew my feelings were getting serious. So I said to him look, I don’t want to pressure you about your vocation. But I know myself, and my feelings are getting serious. So I can keep going as we’re going a few more months, but after that, if you’re not sure, I may need to end things to date other people.
He told the order that night. He was sent to Italy for 9 weeks. We married a year later and this year is 30 years. Part of why our marriage is that strong is that we are able to tell each other what we really need and want. And hear each other. Not all our decisions have been so straightforward, and we’ve both compromised often, sometimes painfully. But oh my god, what I want for people is to be clear and be heard, for real. It’s one of the great joys of my life. And it doesn’t kick in suddenly at 2 years or after you have a ring on your finger. It is a way of relating that permeates things.
Now here’s the thing: I said the right thing in that situation. But I was raised in a family where truth was dangerous (and fluid.) so I had other times I said things I didn’t mean. My husband took those seriously too - and I learned not to make stupid statements if I didn’t mean them.
As I said above, I have no strong feelings about whether you two should or should not end up married. But it seems like he is telling you important information and you should share the same.
I love queenofbythnia’s solution. It’s elegant. It might be a little early for it, but it’s a really good way forward.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:27 AM on February 23 [9 favorites]
When it seemed like it was less *actually* possible/realistic, he initiated and talked about it more: now it *is* possible/realistic, and he is avoiding the idea like the plague.
How badly do you want children? If he did this sort of bait-and-switch on marriage, there's a chance he's currently in the bait phase about this, making you think he's down with having children even if you don't get married. But once the marriage question is settled in one direction or the other and you start talking for real about planning a family, is that when he begins back-peddling on that as well?
Maybe not having kids isn't a dealbreaker for you. Or maybe you're young enough that you feel you have time to be patient with him for a while, and still have time to start over with someone else if need be. But if it's important to you and your clock is ticking, I'd definitely be giving some thought as to what the odds are that while he's resistant to marriage he's going to be perfectly cool about creating a whole new person or two he'll have to be committed to.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:56 AM on February 24 [1 favorite]
How badly do you want children? If he did this sort of bait-and-switch on marriage, there's a chance he's currently in the bait phase about this, making you think he's down with having children even if you don't get married. But once the marriage question is settled in one direction or the other and you start talking for real about planning a family, is that when he begins back-peddling on that as well?
Maybe not having kids isn't a dealbreaker for you. Or maybe you're young enough that you feel you have time to be patient with him for a while, and still have time to start over with someone else if need be. But if it's important to you and your clock is ticking, I'd definitely be giving some thought as to what the odds are that while he's resistant to marriage he's going to be perfectly cool about creating a whole new person or two he'll have to be committed to.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:56 AM on February 24 [1 favorite]
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Why on Earth is this something you have to “be patient” about? Be careful you’re not assuming he will change his mind.
You want to be married and it’s important to you. I think you need to decide if that’s more important to you than this man, or if this relationship is more valuable than marriage. Either is fine, and take your time. But you need to decide if this is a bottom-line issue for you.
If it is, then you let him know like “marriage is really important to me. I can keep dating you for 6 months, but after that if you haven’t changed your mind, I am going to have to find a partner who shares that goal and value with me.”
If it isn’t then I would consult a lawyer around what legal protections you do and don’t have and determine what you want/need to feel secure. Definitely keep your finances separate. If you contribute to repair costs in a home he owns, keep receipts. If you’re considering kids, then it’s important to look at that with some expert advice (not that you have to be married to have kids or that you can trade away their rights to support etc.)
posted by warriorqueen at 9:08 AM on February 22 [36 favorites]