Have I actually checked out, or am I just generally overwhelmed?
February 26, 2023 1:41 PM Subscribe
It has been a rough-assed year, and it's gotten rough again. For the last few months I've been feeling like I'm checking out of my home life and, worse, my marriage. But because of the general life stuff going on, I can't trust that I'm actually checked out vs just being overwhelmed by gestures all this. How can I figure it out?
I'm sorry, this is a lot, but…
This time last year I posted a couple of questions here on the green about dealing with my spouse's (they/them) anxiety over world events — specifically the war in Ukraine. Now we've come to the anniversary of said war and once again they are doomscrolling and predicting the end of civilisation. Though things haven't gotten quite as bad as they did last year, my spouse is obviously struggling, and we've had more than one late night conversation where they predicted that we were going to die in a nuclear war the next day. In one conversation they reiterated their accusation from last year that I care more about work than about our marriage, because I didn't want to take the next day off work to "make the most of the time we [had] left."
On top of that has been the usual — for us — worry of my spouse's that I'm cheating, or am going to cheat, or am thinking about cheating or leaving them. This happens at least once a month when I travel for work, sometimes more often. It's not accusatory, more said in a tone of resigned acceptance, but it still hurts.
They've also, a few times over the last few months, been saying how numb they feel, how everyone would be better off without them, and how they should just disappear so that everyone could have a good life. At least once they've told me, late at night, that they were going to find somewhere else to live, because they knew they were making me miserable.
My spouse was in therapy briefly last year, and on Sertraline for an even briefer time (it made the anxiety so much worse, and they were starting to have suicidal thoughts, so their doctor told them to stop taking it). The therapy didn't work because they didn't connect well with the therapist, and they've sworn off seeing another one — my trying to suggest it a couple of weeks ago was met with "please understand that that's not something I'm going to do; don't suggest it again." Similarly, when we've argued and I've suggested couple's therapy, they've scoffed at it: "oh yeah, because I need someone else to tell me that our marriage is fucked." Again, I took that as a message to not raise the suggestion in future.
Our sex life — which has always been complicated and now, I look back, never really great — has petered out over the last 12 months. At first it was because I was always too tired (my spouse likes to have sex last thing at night, around midnight, and I'm ready to sleep around 10pm; conversely I'm up for sex almost any time before then, but my spouse isn't interested at all during the day) but more recently both of us have felt unwanted by the other at different times. It's gotten to the point where my spouse says that they don't know how to do it anymore, and has told me that although I suggest making more time to be romantic and intimate with one another, we clearly don't want sex enough, because if we did we would have made the time by now. I've given over pointing out how screwed up life has been for the last 12 months, and how that's affected both our sex drives; it feels like I'm just making excuses at this point. I'm not one to give up hope, or to stop trying, but even I'm running out of steam. My spouse would rather that I just accept we're never going to have sex again, and tells me we shouldn't bother talking about it (although they're also likely to quote statistics at me about how many times we've had sex in the last month, out of nowhere).
Recently of all they were in a car accident which caused them to need hip surgery, the result of which has meant that there's a bunch of things that they can't do at the moment. That's meant extra responsibility for me, which I'm largely okay with — we own a couple of large animals and I've taken over caring for them 100% of the time as opposed to splitting that time with my spouse as we were before. Unfortunately, it's meant that I'm overwhelmed: with work, which is busy and complicated for its own reasons, with animal care, with looking after my (temporarily disabled) spouse's physical needs, cooking, housework…
I've been in personal therapy since late last year, with a wonderful therapist (after several false starts). My therapist has pointed out to me that for the duration of this relationship I've almost had to act as a parent to my spouse. She's also pointed out that, due to losses at a young age, I don't have that inner parental voice that tells me when it's okay to get out of a situation that's hurting me. I didn't have a parent that I could turn to about romantic partners, so I've figured it all out for myself as I went.
My therapist has been very clear that she doesn't think this marriage is good for me — something my friends have said, and something I know that a few people MeFites have said too. Something about me knows that to be true, but at the same time I don't want to let go of it. Not because I don't want to feel better than I do — god only knows I want to not have to feel all these feelings — but because I don't trust myself to be right about leaving, and I know how much pain I'm going to cause my spouse if I do, and I worry about how they might react to being abandoned.
I should note that when my first marriage ended it was because of a line being crossed: my (now ex-)wife assaulted me. That was easy (well, not easy, but at least simple to determine that it was time to go). Another relationship between then and now ended by mutual consent — we cared for each other but weren't compatible long term. This feels very different.
I'm currently trying to read "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay" but I haven't gotten far through it. It's ringing bells though. When my therapist asked me how I'd react if my spouse asked for a divorce I said that I'd just say "okay" and accept it. I know that to be true, but only if I knew that the request for a divorce were real and not a test, which I suspect it would be. I caught myself daydreaming the other day about my spouse having a windfall of cash, and how then I'd be able to leave without guilt about altering their financial situation.
Naturally, I feel awful about all this, and my inner critic is very, very loud.
I'm working on learning how to re-parent myself through all this mess, and I am of course continuing to see my therapist as much as I can afford to (and as much as is practical). But if anyone here has any advice on the following, I'd appreciate it:
I'm sorry, this is a lot, but…
This time last year I posted a couple of questions here on the green about dealing with my spouse's (they/them) anxiety over world events — specifically the war in Ukraine. Now we've come to the anniversary of said war and once again they are doomscrolling and predicting the end of civilisation. Though things haven't gotten quite as bad as they did last year, my spouse is obviously struggling, and we've had more than one late night conversation where they predicted that we were going to die in a nuclear war the next day. In one conversation they reiterated their accusation from last year that I care more about work than about our marriage, because I didn't want to take the next day off work to "make the most of the time we [had] left."
On top of that has been the usual — for us — worry of my spouse's that I'm cheating, or am going to cheat, or am thinking about cheating or leaving them. This happens at least once a month when I travel for work, sometimes more often. It's not accusatory, more said in a tone of resigned acceptance, but it still hurts.
They've also, a few times over the last few months, been saying how numb they feel, how everyone would be better off without them, and how they should just disappear so that everyone could have a good life. At least once they've told me, late at night, that they were going to find somewhere else to live, because they knew they were making me miserable.
My spouse was in therapy briefly last year, and on Sertraline for an even briefer time (it made the anxiety so much worse, and they were starting to have suicidal thoughts, so their doctor told them to stop taking it). The therapy didn't work because they didn't connect well with the therapist, and they've sworn off seeing another one — my trying to suggest it a couple of weeks ago was met with "please understand that that's not something I'm going to do; don't suggest it again." Similarly, when we've argued and I've suggested couple's therapy, they've scoffed at it: "oh yeah, because I need someone else to tell me that our marriage is fucked." Again, I took that as a message to not raise the suggestion in future.
Our sex life — which has always been complicated and now, I look back, never really great — has petered out over the last 12 months. At first it was because I was always too tired (my spouse likes to have sex last thing at night, around midnight, and I'm ready to sleep around 10pm; conversely I'm up for sex almost any time before then, but my spouse isn't interested at all during the day) but more recently both of us have felt unwanted by the other at different times. It's gotten to the point where my spouse says that they don't know how to do it anymore, and has told me that although I suggest making more time to be romantic and intimate with one another, we clearly don't want sex enough, because if we did we would have made the time by now. I've given over pointing out how screwed up life has been for the last 12 months, and how that's affected both our sex drives; it feels like I'm just making excuses at this point. I'm not one to give up hope, or to stop trying, but even I'm running out of steam. My spouse would rather that I just accept we're never going to have sex again, and tells me we shouldn't bother talking about it (although they're also likely to quote statistics at me about how many times we've had sex in the last month, out of nowhere).
Recently of all they were in a car accident which caused them to need hip surgery, the result of which has meant that there's a bunch of things that they can't do at the moment. That's meant extra responsibility for me, which I'm largely okay with — we own a couple of large animals and I've taken over caring for them 100% of the time as opposed to splitting that time with my spouse as we were before. Unfortunately, it's meant that I'm overwhelmed: with work, which is busy and complicated for its own reasons, with animal care, with looking after my (temporarily disabled) spouse's physical needs, cooking, housework…
I've been in personal therapy since late last year, with a wonderful therapist (after several false starts). My therapist has pointed out to me that for the duration of this relationship I've almost had to act as a parent to my spouse. She's also pointed out that, due to losses at a young age, I don't have that inner parental voice that tells me when it's okay to get out of a situation that's hurting me. I didn't have a parent that I could turn to about romantic partners, so I've figured it all out for myself as I went.
My therapist has been very clear that she doesn't think this marriage is good for me — something my friends have said, and something I know that a few people MeFites have said too. Something about me knows that to be true, but at the same time I don't want to let go of it. Not because I don't want to feel better than I do — god only knows I want to not have to feel all these feelings — but because I don't trust myself to be right about leaving, and I know how much pain I'm going to cause my spouse if I do, and I worry about how they might react to being abandoned.
I should note that when my first marriage ended it was because of a line being crossed: my (now ex-)wife assaulted me. That was easy (well, not easy, but at least simple to determine that it was time to go). Another relationship between then and now ended by mutual consent — we cared for each other but weren't compatible long term. This feels very different.
I'm currently trying to read "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay" but I haven't gotten far through it. It's ringing bells though. When my therapist asked me how I'd react if my spouse asked for a divorce I said that I'd just say "okay" and accept it. I know that to be true, but only if I knew that the request for a divorce were real and not a test, which I suspect it would be. I caught myself daydreaming the other day about my spouse having a windfall of cash, and how then I'd be able to leave without guilt about altering their financial situation.
Naturally, I feel awful about all this, and my inner critic is very, very loud.
I'm working on learning how to re-parent myself through all this mess, and I am of course continuing to see my therapist as much as I can afford to (and as much as is practical). But if anyone here has any advice on the following, I'd appreciate it:
- How to re-parent oneself during a crisis
- How to know that you really are done with a relationship instead of just overwhelmed by everything in general
- How to forgive yourself for not having been a good enough spouse to make things work
- If I am to walk away from this, how I can do it in the most compassionate way.
Mother is sitting beside you, taking you by the hand, and telling you to go. She loves you, her own child. She is looking you in the eyes and saying yes, child of mine, you should go. Go, go, go, and don’t look back.
posted by Balthamos at 2:25 PM on February 26, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Balthamos at 2:25 PM on February 26, 2023 [19 favorites]
Does the phrase "Don't set yourself on fire to keep others warm" resonate with you at all? You can't fix people who don't want to be fixed. I know I'm an internet stranger, but FWIW I'm giving you permission to put yourself first here - and I think you know what your next steps are here.
posted by pyro979 at 2:27 PM on February 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by pyro979 at 2:27 PM on February 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
If I am to walk away from this, how I can do it in the most compassionate way
I absolutely appreciate this but you must be compassionate to yourself and do what you need to do. Your spouse isn’t capable of doing that for you right now. If you need to, imagine your adult self parenting your child self and telling that child that they deserve to be free of an intolerable situation.
I caught myself daydreaming the other day about my spouse having a windfall of cash, and how then I'd be able to leave without guilt about altering their financial situation.
I think you will be surprised at how capable and resourceful people can be when their safety net is removed. This person will figure it out. And even if your spouse faces dire financial consequences if you leave, it still will not be your fault.
posted by corey flood at 2:37 PM on February 26, 2023 [27 favorites]
I absolutely appreciate this but you must be compassionate to yourself and do what you need to do. Your spouse isn’t capable of doing that for you right now. If you need to, imagine your adult self parenting your child self and telling that child that they deserve to be free of an intolerable situation.
I caught myself daydreaming the other day about my spouse having a windfall of cash, and how then I'd be able to leave without guilt about altering their financial situation.
I think you will be surprised at how capable and resourceful people can be when their safety net is removed. This person will figure it out. And even if your spouse faces dire financial consequences if you leave, it still will not be your fault.
posted by corey flood at 2:37 PM on February 26, 2023 [27 favorites]
How to re-parent oneself during a crisis
- how would you advise your best friend in your situation?
How to know that you really are done with a relationship instead of just overwhelmed by everything in general
- for me that would be around the day my spouse said "oh yeah, because I need someone else to tell me that our marriage is fucked" when I wanted to go to counselling to improve it
How to forgive yourself for not having been a good enough spouse to make things work
- one person can't make a relationship between two people work
If I am to walk away from this, how I can do it in the most compassionate way.
- you put your own oxygen mask on first, and then act with integrity. So you leave, and then you sort things out as best you can adhering to the laws of your state/jurisdiction. Let the spouse have the toaster. Keep the pets though if you can.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:52 PM on February 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
- how would you advise your best friend in your situation?
How to know that you really are done with a relationship instead of just overwhelmed by everything in general
- for me that would be around the day my spouse said "oh yeah, because I need someone else to tell me that our marriage is fucked" when I wanted to go to counselling to improve it
How to forgive yourself for not having been a good enough spouse to make things work
- one person can't make a relationship between two people work
If I am to walk away from this, how I can do it in the most compassionate way.
- you put your own oxygen mask on first, and then act with integrity. So you leave, and then you sort things out as best you can adhering to the laws of your state/jurisdiction. Let the spouse have the toaster. Keep the pets though if you can.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:52 PM on February 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
You will be so much happier on the other side of this, and you deserve to be. Please make a plan with your wonderful therapist, and go.
posted by Threeve at 3:00 PM on February 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Threeve at 3:00 PM on February 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
For me, "time to go" was a combination of realizing that the only thing keeping me in the marriage was a bitter-iron sense of duty, and (now ex-)spouse childishly acting out in a way that absolutely pales next to your spouse's antics, but was my final straw.
Your feelings read a lot like mine were, pre-separation. Parent instead of partner, check. No sex, check (I've come out as asexual since, but there had been, long ago, a time I was attracted to him). Overwhelm, check. Guilt for not making it work and breaking a serious promise, check.
I forgave myself, I think, when I went home sobbing after a brilliant production of Lucas Hnath's The Doll's House, Part II realizing the truth of Nora's line "This is why I lived in terror. Not because he was violent -- he wasn't -- not because he ever threatened my life -- he never did -- unless you count living with someone who can't see you as life-threatening -- which in a way it is." I deserved to be seen. You deserve to be seen. Your spouse cannot see you, is not seeing you, even as you are putting their welfare over yours, will never see you.
My life hasn't been amazing since the divorce -- a pandemic will do that -- but it's been immensely more inner-ly peaceful. You deserve inner peace. I encourage you to seek it out.
As for your spouse, I think it is somewhat paradoxically compassionate to stop supporting them. They need more in their day that they must do, as a distraction if nothing else. Give them that by separating from them.
posted by humbug at 3:15 PM on February 26, 2023 [22 favorites]
Your feelings read a lot like mine were, pre-separation. Parent instead of partner, check. No sex, check (I've come out as asexual since, but there had been, long ago, a time I was attracted to him). Overwhelm, check. Guilt for not making it work and breaking a serious promise, check.
I forgave myself, I think, when I went home sobbing after a brilliant production of Lucas Hnath's The Doll's House, Part II realizing the truth of Nora's line "This is why I lived in terror. Not because he was violent -- he wasn't -- not because he ever threatened my life -- he never did -- unless you count living with someone who can't see you as life-threatening -- which in a way it is." I deserved to be seen. You deserve to be seen. Your spouse cannot see you, is not seeing you, even as you are putting their welfare over yours, will never see you.
My life hasn't been amazing since the divorce -- a pandemic will do that -- but it's been immensely more inner-ly peaceful. You deserve inner peace. I encourage you to seek it out.
As for your spouse, I think it is somewhat paradoxically compassionate to stop supporting them. They need more in their day that they must do, as a distraction if nothing else. Give them that by separating from them.
posted by humbug at 3:15 PM on February 26, 2023 [22 favorites]
I think this is an excellent time for an ultimatum. Spouse, you must get individual therapy, and we must get couples therapy, or else it is time to divorce. That gives your spouse a compassionate option if they really don't want things to end, while also setting a bare minimum boundary on how much disrespectful behavior you will tolerate without recourse.
posted by shadygrove at 3:30 PM on February 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by shadygrove at 3:30 PM on February 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
Back in December, I was wrestling with similar questions, even if I hadn't yet articulated them as well as you have.
And I chose to end the relationship. I chose my well-being. Even though he said he needed me with him every day. Even though there were extenuating circumstances. Even though his health conditions meant he'd likely go blind (and I wouldn't be there to care for him). Even though my own burnout was probably coloring things.
So I'm only about 3 months out from that decision, so it's all still raw and fresh and still-undone... like, we haven't yet sorted out all the financial stuff. A lot of the time it feels really yucky and lonely, and I'm grieving.
Can I just tell you though? The peace. The peace I have now is deep and true and beautiful. With this peace, I can sleep and actually rest. And now that I've got this space from him, my work in therapy is starting to become transformative. I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that this was 100% the right decision for me.
Could you try envisioning that for yourself? What things might look like for you, three months down the road, if you say, "I'm ending our relationship" today? Can you imagine how it'll feel to take a deep breath and feel peace in your body?
posted by (F)utility at 3:40 PM on February 26, 2023 [31 favorites]
And I chose to end the relationship. I chose my well-being. Even though he said he needed me with him every day. Even though there were extenuating circumstances. Even though his health conditions meant he'd likely go blind (and I wouldn't be there to care for him). Even though my own burnout was probably coloring things.
So I'm only about 3 months out from that decision, so it's all still raw and fresh and still-undone... like, we haven't yet sorted out all the financial stuff. A lot of the time it feels really yucky and lonely, and I'm grieving.
Can I just tell you though? The peace. The peace I have now is deep and true and beautiful. With this peace, I can sleep and actually rest. And now that I've got this space from him, my work in therapy is starting to become transformative. I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that this was 100% the right decision for me.
Could you try envisioning that for yourself? What things might look like for you, three months down the road, if you say, "I'm ending our relationship" today? Can you imagine how it'll feel to take a deep breath and feel peace in your body?
posted by (F)utility at 3:40 PM on February 26, 2023 [31 favorites]
Ok I'll take question #3:
How to forgive yourself for not having been a good enough spouse to make things work
Acknowledge this: you can't make a marriage work by yourself.
Your partner isn't doing even the barest minimum here.
The barest minimum for someone with their limitations would be to avail themselves of both medication and therapy, for the anxiety and depression that is making them impossible to live with. Even if neither of those worked, the willingness to TRY the available tools would be a demonstration that they're genuinely trying to do their part. (By the way, there are new tools available now, including electroshock, but they also require willingness to engage.) The barest minimum with regard to your sex life would be to compromise and schedule a nice date with you for a time when you're AWAKE, jfc.
You say you didn't have a parent to help you understand romantic partnerships. Well, I am a parent who actively helps, listens and advises my children about how all kinds of relationships work, including romantic ones. And if you were my child I would be hugging you, telling you to honor all the work you've done here, and value whatever growth and loving memories you've managed to achieve during this marriage, and telling you it is now time to go.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:47 PM on February 26, 2023 [20 favorites]
How to forgive yourself for not having been a good enough spouse to make things work
Acknowledge this: you can't make a marriage work by yourself.
Your partner isn't doing even the barest minimum here.
The barest minimum for someone with their limitations would be to avail themselves of both medication and therapy, for the anxiety and depression that is making them impossible to live with. Even if neither of those worked, the willingness to TRY the available tools would be a demonstration that they're genuinely trying to do their part. (By the way, there are new tools available now, including electroshock, but they also require willingness to engage.) The barest minimum with regard to your sex life would be to compromise and schedule a nice date with you for a time when you're AWAKE, jfc.
You say you didn't have a parent to help you understand romantic partnerships. Well, I am a parent who actively helps, listens and advises my children about how all kinds of relationships work, including romantic ones. And if you were my child I would be hugging you, telling you to honor all the work you've done here, and value whatever growth and loving memories you've managed to achieve during this marriage, and telling you it is now time to go.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:47 PM on February 26, 2023 [20 favorites]
Spell out what it would take for you to be happy in this marriage, including what your spouse would have to do -- no matter how unreasonable or impossible it seems, as long as it's not something like "grow a third arm" that is literally impossible. Does she need to be a more supportive, happier person? Does she need urgent therapy and some real internal commitment to do that? Does she need to get low-cost therapy due to resource issues, or substitute some kind of vigorous physical activity to lift her up so you're not doing it all the time? These may sound like unreasonable demands -- or at least, unreasonable as do-it-or-I'll-leave demands -- but that doesn't matter.
Tell her what needs to happen. Give her a chance to counteroffer, do some negotiating - but be clear about what you need, and don't settle for less. She might want to be a different person, she may not, but at least let her see what you need, clearly, and whether she can do that, clearly.
Then, if you end up needing to end the relationship, that's not blindsiding her, and she'll know why, and you'll know why.
And if she tries to do all the things and fails, you can maybe try to connect her to a relative or other source of help, but she'll at least know that it's impossible.
posted by amtho at 4:43 PM on February 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tell her what needs to happen. Give her a chance to counteroffer, do some negotiating - but be clear about what you need, and don't settle for less. She might want to be a different person, she may not, but at least let her see what you need, clearly, and whether she can do that, clearly.
Then, if you end up needing to end the relationship, that's not blindsiding her, and she'll know why, and you'll know why.
And if she tries to do all the things and fails, you can maybe try to connect her to a relative or other source of help, but she'll at least know that it's impossible.
posted by amtho at 4:43 PM on February 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can only echo what others have said above. I was in this situation, agonizing over what was the best way to help her. I finally realized I needed to save myself and leaving her was the best lesson I could give her.
posted by SPrintF at 4:53 PM on February 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 4:53 PM on February 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I found the Dear Sugar column "The Truth That Lives There" incredibly helpful when evaluating a relationship I wanted to leave. In this case I think you have many, many reasons to leave this relationship, but you only need one: you want to. That doesn't make the logistical problems (like "how would my spouse handle it") go away, but it is more important than those problems.
This did jump out at me, though:
This happens at least once a month when I travel for work, sometimes more often.
This is a potential explanation, not an excuse, but does your spouse have a menstrual cycle? The older I get the more premenstrual hormones cause what genuinely feel like near-psychotic episodes of being lightly suicidal and heavily convinced my partner hates me. It does not feel like anything I'd previously understood as "PMS" and it's something I have a very hard time recognizing as hormonally-generated and not real. (I don't mean to say that feelings aren't real but like... not real in the sense that the things I'm reacting to are internally generated, not verifiably happening.) This doesn't help if they're not willing to put any work in, but I wanted to mention it just in case they were being treated for the wrong thing.
posted by babelfish at 5:04 PM on February 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
This did jump out at me, though:
This happens at least once a month when I travel for work, sometimes more often.
This is a potential explanation, not an excuse, but does your spouse have a menstrual cycle? The older I get the more premenstrual hormones cause what genuinely feel like near-psychotic episodes of being lightly suicidal and heavily convinced my partner hates me. It does not feel like anything I'd previously understood as "PMS" and it's something I have a very hard time recognizing as hormonally-generated and not real. (I don't mean to say that feelings aren't real but like... not real in the sense that the things I'm reacting to are internally generated, not verifiably happening.) This doesn't help if they're not willing to put any work in, but I wanted to mention it just in case they were being treated for the wrong thing.
posted by babelfish at 5:04 PM on February 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
I’ve been as mentally and economically vulnerable as your spouse, and my husband and I were both worried I wouldn’t be able to make it on my own if he left. He made the brave and decisive choice to leave, kindly, and trust we’d both figure it out. It was the best thing for us both. I’ll be grateful till the day I die.
Some things he did that made the practical and emotional transition easier:
- Handled finances generously- he left me with proportionally more of our small savings as his earnings and future salary trajectory is a lot higher than mine.
- Left me most of the household “stuff” as rebuilding a household would have been much harder financially and physically for me.
- Agreed to come to some therapy sessions to discuss how we got here, which gave us both more closure and a chance to express gratitude for the better times.* *Maybe not advisable for you given your spouse’s manipulative and therapy-averse ways.
The practical challenges of rebuilding actually helped me refocus from extreme anxiety about the whole world onto my own circle of control. Successfully finding and moving into another place, decorating it to my own taste, slowly figuring out finances and a solo routine for the first time in many years, strengthening my career to head towards more of a breadwinner mindset, it all helped. I’ve had some embarrassing failures and financial idiocies as I tried to figure things out, but I had to have those to do better later. Nothing has been catastrophic.
It was actually easier to fix my health once I could just focus on treatment and routines that work for me. I was at least partially paralyzed from action during the marriage by shuttling between trying to help myself and feeling constant guilt that I wasn’t also meeting my husband’s sexual and social needs. I felt like I was failing at everything, and so did he. Now both of us have much better self-esteem, far away from one another.
Give your spouse the chance to face reality square on and see what they’re capable of, instead of holding you captive in terrified resentment. They sense the marriage is gone in a fundamental way. Maybe if you begin the apocalypse they fear by choosing better for yourself, they’ll find the world isn’t so bad.
I don’t want to brightside your spouse’s suicidal tendencies. This is such an emergency that they deserve to be pushed to take their health seriously- either get help for the terrible depression, or get a chance to parse out the part of those statements that might be about keeping you around from what they actually feel about themselves/the world. They’ve been treating you *terribly*- you don’t owe them staying in the marriage, even if they imply their life is on the line. That’s abusive and manipulative, even if they also feel it’s true. Mental healthcare in Britain is a shitshow, but they have a relationship with their GP, can try different meds, and would be close to the front of the line for inpatient treatment if necessary.
There’s very possibly a better life for both of you on the other side of you leaving. And definitely for you. You deserve so much better.
posted by pickingupsticks at 6:30 PM on February 26, 2023 [19 favorites]
Some things he did that made the practical and emotional transition easier:
- Handled finances generously- he left me with proportionally more of our small savings as his earnings and future salary trajectory is a lot higher than mine.
- Left me most of the household “stuff” as rebuilding a household would have been much harder financially and physically for me.
- Agreed to come to some therapy sessions to discuss how we got here, which gave us both more closure and a chance to express gratitude for the better times.* *Maybe not advisable for you given your spouse’s manipulative and therapy-averse ways.
The practical challenges of rebuilding actually helped me refocus from extreme anxiety about the whole world onto my own circle of control. Successfully finding and moving into another place, decorating it to my own taste, slowly figuring out finances and a solo routine for the first time in many years, strengthening my career to head towards more of a breadwinner mindset, it all helped. I’ve had some embarrassing failures and financial idiocies as I tried to figure things out, but I had to have those to do better later. Nothing has been catastrophic.
It was actually easier to fix my health once I could just focus on treatment and routines that work for me. I was at least partially paralyzed from action during the marriage by shuttling between trying to help myself and feeling constant guilt that I wasn’t also meeting my husband’s sexual and social needs. I felt like I was failing at everything, and so did he. Now both of us have much better self-esteem, far away from one another.
Give your spouse the chance to face reality square on and see what they’re capable of, instead of holding you captive in terrified resentment. They sense the marriage is gone in a fundamental way. Maybe if you begin the apocalypse they fear by choosing better for yourself, they’ll find the world isn’t so bad.
I don’t want to brightside your spouse’s suicidal tendencies. This is such an emergency that they deserve to be pushed to take their health seriously- either get help for the terrible depression, or get a chance to parse out the part of those statements that might be about keeping you around from what they actually feel about themselves/the world. They’ve been treating you *terribly*- you don’t owe them staying in the marriage, even if they imply their life is on the line. That’s abusive and manipulative, even if they also feel it’s true. Mental healthcare in Britain is a shitshow, but they have a relationship with their GP, can try different meds, and would be close to the front of the line for inpatient treatment if necessary.
There’s very possibly a better life for both of you on the other side of you leaving. And definitely for you. You deserve so much better.
posted by pickingupsticks at 6:30 PM on February 26, 2023 [19 favorites]
It is okay to leave someone with a severe untreated mental illness.
It's absolutely okay.
It doesn't make you wrong or bad. You've been treading water trying to get your partner to stop wading in dangerous water, to get them to stop almost drowning and you are exhausted. She has to get out of the water on her own. You can't do it for her, you will drown.
Get out, get dry, throw her a life preserver in terms of an ultimatium if you must, but you have tried really hard to make this work, to be a partner. This isn't you. It is absolutely okay to just decide to be done.
Inaction is the opposite of good patenting. Start making strides to a life that doesn't feel overwhelming to you. Set boundaries, take breaks, whatever you need.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:49 PM on February 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's absolutely okay.
It doesn't make you wrong or bad. You've been treading water trying to get your partner to stop wading in dangerous water, to get them to stop almost drowning and you are exhausted. She has to get out of the water on her own. You can't do it for her, you will drown.
Get out, get dry, throw her a life preserver in terms of an ultimatium if you must, but you have tried really hard to make this work, to be a partner. This isn't you. It is absolutely okay to just decide to be done.
Inaction is the opposite of good patenting. Start making strides to a life that doesn't feel overwhelming to you. Set boundaries, take breaks, whatever you need.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:49 PM on February 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
How to re-parent yourself through a crisis:
One way is to notice all the support, stamina, kindness, compassion, and benefit of the doubt that you're giving your partner, and realize that no one is giving that back to you. Re-parenting means feeling a sense of benevolent duty to extending that same support, stamina, kindness, and compassion toward yourself.
How to know that you really are done with a relationship instead of just overwhelmed by everything in general?
After ending two marriages and a significant relationship, I've come to think the root of most couples' struggles is decision-making and power. For most of a relationship this can look like decisions about things like whose family to visit for a holiday, how to parent, whose job to follow for financial health. But at the point where the issue is the relationship itself -- as in, "The relationship as configured does not work for me. I'd like to negotiate something else that works for us both. My proposal is therapy, financial changes, sexual changes, whatever." -- at that point, a lack of shared power is a deal-killer. When your spouse or partner refuses to participate in that conversation, vetoes every proposal, or abdicates in some symbolic way (having an affair, starting an addictive behavior or protest behaviors like refusing to bathe, etc.), then, in my experience, the clock starts. The clock is different for everyone. For some people it dings immediately. Others hang in there for a specific amount of time. (This often looks like an explicit ultimatum, or a privately held one, or a conditional situation "I'll leave if x, y, or z happens). Other people languish and only know they're in limbo. But it seems to me that's the point where the relationship is over. The person saying "No, I won't participate in that conversation," either needs to participate or the person wanting change needs to step out of the negotiation.
How to forgive yourself for not having been a good enough spouse to make things work?
By acknowledging that no committed relationship between adults is one person's job. There may be things each person does 100% of -- you may handle the pets come what may, and your partner may handle the finances. One of you may work and support you both at great cost. But the relationship itself, as a co-created, shared emotional core and contract, is still the job of both partners.
posted by KneeHiSocks at 7:01 PM on February 26, 2023 [13 favorites]
One way is to notice all the support, stamina, kindness, compassion, and benefit of the doubt that you're giving your partner, and realize that no one is giving that back to you. Re-parenting means feeling a sense of benevolent duty to extending that same support, stamina, kindness, and compassion toward yourself.
How to know that you really are done with a relationship instead of just overwhelmed by everything in general?
After ending two marriages and a significant relationship, I've come to think the root of most couples' struggles is decision-making and power. For most of a relationship this can look like decisions about things like whose family to visit for a holiday, how to parent, whose job to follow for financial health. But at the point where the issue is the relationship itself -- as in, "The relationship as configured does not work for me. I'd like to negotiate something else that works for us both. My proposal is therapy, financial changes, sexual changes, whatever." -- at that point, a lack of shared power is a deal-killer. When your spouse or partner refuses to participate in that conversation, vetoes every proposal, or abdicates in some symbolic way (having an affair, starting an addictive behavior or protest behaviors like refusing to bathe, etc.), then, in my experience, the clock starts. The clock is different for everyone. For some people it dings immediately. Others hang in there for a specific amount of time. (This often looks like an explicit ultimatum, or a privately held one, or a conditional situation "I'll leave if x, y, or z happens). Other people languish and only know they're in limbo. But it seems to me that's the point where the relationship is over. The person saying "No, I won't participate in that conversation," either needs to participate or the person wanting change needs to step out of the negotiation.
How to forgive yourself for not having been a good enough spouse to make things work?
By acknowledging that no committed relationship between adults is one person's job. There may be things each person does 100% of -- you may handle the pets come what may, and your partner may handle the finances. One of you may work and support you both at great cost. But the relationship itself, as a co-created, shared emotional core and contract, is still the job of both partners.
posted by KneeHiSocks at 7:01 PM on February 26, 2023 [13 favorites]
A friend of mine really struggled to end her second marriage, even when it was incredibly clear that it was unhealthy. She felt embarrassed to have gotten married a second time and not really made a "better" decision. She felt ashamed that she was a feminist who was being treated so poorly by a man, like she should have known better. She felt like a failure for not being able to make her second marriage work. What was so sad to me about all this is that she ended up staying in a bad situation for ages because of all this.
It was clear to many of us a year ago that it was time for you to end this marriage. And it's still clear now. You have a better live you can live, but you need to end your marriage first.
You can't fix your spouse or make this marriage work. There's a good chance things will get better for your spouse, too. You are so unhappy together. You'll be better apart.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:20 PM on February 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
It was clear to many of us a year ago that it was time for you to end this marriage. And it's still clear now. You have a better live you can live, but you need to end your marriage first.
You can't fix your spouse or make this marriage work. There's a good chance things will get better for your spouse, too. You are so unhappy together. You'll be better apart.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:20 PM on February 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: six sided sock, I'm so glad to hear that your therapeutic journey has been going well, and that you're benefiting from new insights. I remember your previous couple posts, because they really concerned me. Even as a stranger, it's a relief to see that you're seriously examining this relationship.
My first (rather facile) remark would be that once a person says, "Something about me knows that to be true, but at the same time I don't want to let go of it"...the outcome has become a when, not an if. Perhaps you are the rare exception, but I've never seen it play out otherwise. Before major forks in the road, we almost all experience that terrible-feeling, resistant period of saying, "No! I don't want the fork to be there!" But now that the fork exists within you, I think you'll be approaching it.
So, there's that.
I would also point out that you aren't the only person being harmed by this marriage. As your therapist says, throughout your relationship, you've had a dynamic in which you parent and your partner is parented. (This could also be framed as caretaker vs. chronic patient.) I know you believe that removing yourself from the situation would harm your partner. But you have to understand: staying to continue your dynamic is itself part of the toxic dynamic. You two have a framework in which you CANNOT leave, because your partner CANNOT cope on their own, because you are a self-sacrificing caregiver, and your partner is a helpless child. This is not healthy for you. But it also isn't healthy for your partner! This dynamic robs them of living a full adult life.
Of course, it's possible that you'll leave and your partner will spiral and things may look terribly dark for them for at least a while. But by ending your codependency, you'll have given them a very important gift: the mandate to exercise free will. To choose whether or not to pull out of their negative cycle. To make serious changes, and live a functional life.
At the moment, you're enabling your partner in some respects. I hate to put it that way, because I think you're already putting far too much blame on yourself. But I think the premise that you leaving would be a selfish act that will only hurt your partner is just wrong. Yes, that is how it will superficially appear, and how your partner may frame it (as they flail to avoid their own fork of, "Boy, I need to make real changes to help me feel and act better"). But from what you've shared here, neither of you seem to be doing well or feeling healthy in this relationship.
Please be well, no matter what happens next.
P.S. Much as I understand the impulse to recommend an ultimatum (in which you tell your partner what needs to change and on what timeline), I'm not sure it's a great idea for you two, in that it sorta plays into your caretaker/patient dynamic. This could be something to discuss with your therapist.
P.P.S. Codependent No More might be another one to add to your reading list.
posted by desert outpost at 3:34 AM on February 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
My first (rather facile) remark would be that once a person says, "Something about me knows that to be true, but at the same time I don't want to let go of it"...the outcome has become a when, not an if. Perhaps you are the rare exception, but I've never seen it play out otherwise. Before major forks in the road, we almost all experience that terrible-feeling, resistant period of saying, "No! I don't want the fork to be there!" But now that the fork exists within you, I think you'll be approaching it.
So, there's that.
I would also point out that you aren't the only person being harmed by this marriage. As your therapist says, throughout your relationship, you've had a dynamic in which you parent and your partner is parented. (This could also be framed as caretaker vs. chronic patient.) I know you believe that removing yourself from the situation would harm your partner. But you have to understand: staying to continue your dynamic is itself part of the toxic dynamic. You two have a framework in which you CANNOT leave, because your partner CANNOT cope on their own, because you are a self-sacrificing caregiver, and your partner is a helpless child. This is not healthy for you. But it also isn't healthy for your partner! This dynamic robs them of living a full adult life.
Of course, it's possible that you'll leave and your partner will spiral and things may look terribly dark for them for at least a while. But by ending your codependency, you'll have given them a very important gift: the mandate to exercise free will. To choose whether or not to pull out of their negative cycle. To make serious changes, and live a functional life.
At the moment, you're enabling your partner in some respects. I hate to put it that way, because I think you're already putting far too much blame on yourself. But I think the premise that you leaving would be a selfish act that will only hurt your partner is just wrong. Yes, that is how it will superficially appear, and how your partner may frame it (as they flail to avoid their own fork of, "Boy, I need to make real changes to help me feel and act better"). But from what you've shared here, neither of you seem to be doing well or feeling healthy in this relationship.
Please be well, no matter what happens next.
P.S. Much as I understand the impulse to recommend an ultimatum (in which you tell your partner what needs to change and on what timeline), I'm not sure it's a great idea for you two, in that it sorta plays into your caretaker/patient dynamic. This could be something to discuss with your therapist.
P.P.S. Codependent No More might be another one to add to your reading list.
posted by desert outpost at 3:34 AM on February 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
Best answer: Another P.S.! People also seem to like this book, especially if your partner's issues aren't related to alcohol specifically. I suspect you might find interest in the focus on shame.
posted by desert outpost at 3:50 AM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by desert outpost at 3:50 AM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
As the person who was mentally ill, I never reached your partner's level but I was not okay. The dissolution of my marriage helped me be okay. I got so much better after the divorce. I am a success story.
That's not always the way it goes. And it isn't your responsibility.
When my marriage dissolved I was responsible for me. My ex was responsible for himself. It wouldn't have been his responsibility or duty if I hadn't been.
Our marriage wasn't terrible. People are still shocked about the divorce. But it didn't make us stronger or happier or better. Not the way I was after the divorce, or the way I am now with a new partner. A marriage that is a slow slow dissolving of your being is not going to get better while someone refuses to get help, or cannot change, or will not change. A partner who consistently accuses you of cheating, who tries to interfere with your work, your therapy, your ability to live and sleep and enjoy life, is not one that will make your life better.
You forgive yourself for not being the best spouse for them by being the best you for you. By being your own damn spouse. By forcing them to stop using you and relying on you to make them unhappy and never working on it.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:58 AM on February 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
That's not always the way it goes. And it isn't your responsibility.
When my marriage dissolved I was responsible for me. My ex was responsible for himself. It wouldn't have been his responsibility or duty if I hadn't been.
Our marriage wasn't terrible. People are still shocked about the divorce. But it didn't make us stronger or happier or better. Not the way I was after the divorce, or the way I am now with a new partner. A marriage that is a slow slow dissolving of your being is not going to get better while someone refuses to get help, or cannot change, or will not change. A partner who consistently accuses you of cheating, who tries to interfere with your work, your therapy, your ability to live and sleep and enjoy life, is not one that will make your life better.
You forgive yourself for not being the best spouse for them by being the best you for you. By being your own damn spouse. By forcing them to stop using you and relying on you to make them unhappy and never working on it.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:58 AM on February 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
and I know how much pain I'm going to cause my spouse if I do
This is framed wrong. You won’t be causing their pain. They are causing their own pain by refusing to go to therapy to try to help themselves. They’re basically wallowing in their unhappiness, and insisting you wallow in their unhappiness too.
Coincidentally, just a few hours ago I had a conversation with someone who’s just starting to receive RTMS treatment for lifelong depression. This person said they were extremely concerned that if they lose their depression, they’ll lose themselves. Being depressed is their whole identity, and if that’s taken away, they won’t be special anymore. Perhaps your spouse also feels this way? (I reminded this person that they are more than just their diagnoses, and that they probably have a lot of good things inside them that have never been able to develop because of the depression.) It can be scary to think about something that has been your whole identity suddenly being gone, but it’s not fair of your spouse to insist that your entire life be ruined because of their fear (if that is indeed something they’re feeling.)
Other people have said this already, but you’re hurting your spouse more than helping them by staying and enabling them to continue this way. When you leave, your spouse will be ok…or they won’t. But if you stay, neither of you will be ok. You deserve more out of life than to be dragged down by someone else’s refusal to seek treatment. Do you really want to waste your entire life dealing with this? Do you really want to never be happy again? Do you really want to spend your entire life living in a black hole you can never get out of? Because that’s what your life will be if you don’t save yourself. And it will get worse than it is now. People don’t improve themselves if they don’t have a reason to improve. And your spouse doesn’t seem to think you’re worth improving for.
If you leave, at least one and maybe both people in this relationship will be saved. If you stay, two lives will continue to be ruined.
posted by MexicanYenta at 1:06 AM on February 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is framed wrong. You won’t be causing their pain. They are causing their own pain by refusing to go to therapy to try to help themselves. They’re basically wallowing in their unhappiness, and insisting you wallow in their unhappiness too.
Coincidentally, just a few hours ago I had a conversation with someone who’s just starting to receive RTMS treatment for lifelong depression. This person said they were extremely concerned that if they lose their depression, they’ll lose themselves. Being depressed is their whole identity, and if that’s taken away, they won’t be special anymore. Perhaps your spouse also feels this way? (I reminded this person that they are more than just their diagnoses, and that they probably have a lot of good things inside them that have never been able to develop because of the depression.) It can be scary to think about something that has been your whole identity suddenly being gone, but it’s not fair of your spouse to insist that your entire life be ruined because of their fear (if that is indeed something they’re feeling.)
Other people have said this already, but you’re hurting your spouse more than helping them by staying and enabling them to continue this way. When you leave, your spouse will be ok…or they won’t. But if you stay, neither of you will be ok. You deserve more out of life than to be dragged down by someone else’s refusal to seek treatment. Do you really want to waste your entire life dealing with this? Do you really want to never be happy again? Do you really want to spend your entire life living in a black hole you can never get out of? Because that’s what your life will be if you don’t save yourself. And it will get worse than it is now. People don’t improve themselves if they don’t have a reason to improve. And your spouse doesn’t seem to think you’re worth improving for.
If you leave, at least one and maybe both people in this relationship will be saved. If you stay, two lives will continue to be ruined.
posted by MexicanYenta at 1:06 AM on February 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I feel like yesterday's Ask Polly was written for you. You have to be a paying member to view it. Here's an excerpt:
"You might believe that taking responsibility for someone else’s emotional state makes you a good person – generous, thoughtful, considerate. But if you’re obsessive, anxious, avoidant, haunted by guilt, an overachiever, or an overthinker, then the state of mind you see as responsible or honorable might be encouraging some bad emotional habits. You might be tempted to take so much ownership of your relationships that you’re tempted to push boundaries and fix situations that aren’t improved with intervention. And while you might see yourself as sensitive and open and responsible, you might tend to assign yourself a role that can’t help but feel oppressive eventually.
Your “I MUST FIX THIS” intentions are good: You want to show up for people. You don’t want to hurt anyone. You don’t want to become too dependent. You want to make sure your relationship is the best it can be. You want to be a good friend. You want to have someone’s back. You want to communicate your needs clearly.
These are all pure-hearted aims, but you might be painting yourself into an unsustainable corner."
Link
posted by foxjacket at 8:34 PM on February 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
"You might believe that taking responsibility for someone else’s emotional state makes you a good person – generous, thoughtful, considerate. But if you’re obsessive, anxious, avoidant, haunted by guilt, an overachiever, or an overthinker, then the state of mind you see as responsible or honorable might be encouraging some bad emotional habits. You might be tempted to take so much ownership of your relationships that you’re tempted to push boundaries and fix situations that aren’t improved with intervention. And while you might see yourself as sensitive and open and responsible, you might tend to assign yourself a role that can’t help but feel oppressive eventually.
Your “I MUST FIX THIS” intentions are good: You want to show up for people. You don’t want to hurt anyone. You don’t want to become too dependent. You want to make sure your relationship is the best it can be. You want to be a good friend. You want to have someone’s back. You want to communicate your needs clearly.
These are all pure-hearted aims, but you might be painting yourself into an unsustainable corner."
Link
posted by foxjacket at 8:34 PM on February 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
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If you choose to, you will be able to come up with reasons why you haven't completed enough of the Twelve Labors to justify leaving your marriage until one of you dies. You're not happy, and haven't been for quite some time, and your spouse is more interested in feeling like a victim of uncontrollable fate than working on addressing either their serious mental health issues or the lack of mutual support in your marriage. For any reasonable outside observer, that would be sufficient reason to leave. But there's a difference between what feels like a "reasonable" basis for divorce to an outsider and what is enough for you, personally, in your one and only life. You control that standard, and right now you are invested in persuading yourself that you don't meet it, perhaps because with all that's going on it is easier to feel like a failure within the marriage than to tackle the huge and terrifying task of getting a divorce. Consider discussing that with your therapist.
But...and please understand that I am only saying this because I remember your past posts and I continue to be genuinely concerned for the safety of your household. Imagine that one day you come home from work to find that your spouse has taken your pets to animal control to be euthanized in advance of that nuclear attack. I want you to think about how you would feel, because that is something you are honestly risking every day. If whatever harm to you isn't good enough for you to leave, how about them? Don't say they wouldn't do it. They've already talked about doing it. Your marrige doesn't implicate your welfare alone.
posted by praemunire at 2:19 PM on February 26, 2023 [33 favorites]