Are you paying separately or together?
November 5, 2023 5:19 PM Subscribe
I'm socially inept, and I’d like guidance on the social norms related to paying for dinner in non-romantic settings, among peers of similar age and financial standing. My social circles mainly consist of people from Canada, the United States, and the United Kingdom.
I'm extremely conflict averse, and so I hate getting into those arguments in which each person insists on paying. This means that when someone offers to pay, I usually accept. Then I leave dinner feeling like a freeloader.
More specifically ...
1. In what circumstances is there an expectation that I'll pay the bill? If it was me that suggested dinner in the first place, does this imply an obligation for me to cover the bill?
2. If I offer to pay the bill, I suppose that the other person might decline once or twice for the sake of form, all the time expecting to accept the offer. What's the proper response here?
3. Is it a common social strategy to offer to pay for dinner as a polite gesture, while expecting the other party to decline?
I know of course that the norms vary from place to place and between different communities. I'm hoping to get answers from people with a variety of backgrounds. I'd particularly like to hear from other socially inept / conflict averse people who've found strategies for dealing with this.
I'm extremely conflict averse, and so I hate getting into those arguments in which each person insists on paying. This means that when someone offers to pay, I usually accept. Then I leave dinner feeling like a freeloader.
More specifically ...
1. In what circumstances is there an expectation that I'll pay the bill? If it was me that suggested dinner in the first place, does this imply an obligation for me to cover the bill?
2. If I offer to pay the bill, I suppose that the other person might decline once or twice for the sake of form, all the time expecting to accept the offer. What's the proper response here?
3. Is it a common social strategy to offer to pay for dinner as a polite gesture, while expecting the other party to decline?
I know of course that the norms vary from place to place and between different communities. I'm hoping to get answers from people with a variety of backgrounds. I'd particularly like to hear from other socially inept / conflict averse people who've found strategies for dealing with this.
With me and my friends, it depends on several things. One is how often we dine together. The more often, the more it is usually either take turns or split the check evenly among the attendees. Two, I have some very wealthy friends, and while I offer to pay and would happily if they accept, they almost always end up paying for the table. Three, sometimes, one party pays while another party leaves the tip (in cash). I do not think anyone in my circle offers to pay as a plolite gesture hoping to be turned down. When I was younger, if we had a friend who was not as well off financially, or struggling, we would pay. I also come from a friends culture of gambling or taking chances so there are times we play credit card roulette. Each of us gives the server a card, and the server closes their eyes and picks one to pay. I have also called ahead and given my card for a reservation because I wanted to pay because of I "owed" them one or I knew they would have to stretch to afford that restaurant.
Also, if I ask someone to join me (us) for dinner, I am saying I am paying. If it is, "Hey, a bunch of us are getting together for dinner Friday night, do you want to come or be included, then that is more like a negotiation at the table.
I wouldn't say you are a freeloader by any stretch, but I do think that every so often, you should aggressively insist or just get up to go to the bathroom and get the check from the waiter and give them a card.
I think there are so many variables and it is very specific to the norms of your group. As I said, one of my friends is so wealthy he has paid for 30 people to go to Amsterdam for a 4 day weekend (from the US). He has said it gives him pleasure to buy dinner or the rare field trip. So, consider each other's means, but if everyone is fairly the same or can afford the meal, take turns or insist on paying every so often.
Finally, with my late 20s children, they go out with friends as couples and either split the bill at the table or use Venmo after the fact to square away. They are just not at a point in their lives where they can pay for 6 people's meals. Of course, it also depends on the price point of the restaurant too.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 5:34 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, if I ask someone to join me (us) for dinner, I am saying I am paying. If it is, "Hey, a bunch of us are getting together for dinner Friday night, do you want to come or be included, then that is more like a negotiation at the table.
I wouldn't say you are a freeloader by any stretch, but I do think that every so often, you should aggressively insist or just get up to go to the bathroom and get the check from the waiter and give them a card.
I think there are so many variables and it is very specific to the norms of your group. As I said, one of my friends is so wealthy he has paid for 30 people to go to Amsterdam for a 4 day weekend (from the US). He has said it gives him pleasure to buy dinner or the rare field trip. So, consider each other's means, but if everyone is fairly the same or can afford the meal, take turns or insist on paying every so often.
Finally, with my late 20s children, they go out with friends as couples and either split the bill at the table or use Venmo after the fact to square away. They are just not at a point in their lives where they can pay for 6 people's meals. Of course, it also depends on the price point of the restaurant too.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 5:34 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
I hate figuring out who pays for a meal.
If I invite someone for a meal, I do so with the expectation I pay for myself and the other person. If the other person offers to pay for themselves or me, I'll let them do so.
If I am invited for a meal, I will offer to pay for myself. If the other person declines my offer, I'll let them do so.
In all cases, I go into the meal with the expectation of paying for it, hence, I don't consider myself a freeloader. If they offer to pay, I take them up on that offer, and they proceed to think I'm a freeloader, that's on them, not me.
posted by saeculorum at 5:41 PM on November 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
If I invite someone for a meal, I do so with the expectation I pay for myself and the other person. If the other person offers to pay for themselves or me, I'll let them do so.
If I am invited for a meal, I will offer to pay for myself. If the other person declines my offer, I'll let them do so.
In all cases, I go into the meal with the expectation of paying for it, hence, I don't consider myself a freeloader. If they offer to pay, I take them up on that offer, and they proceed to think I'm a freeloader, that's on them, not me.
posted by saeculorum at 5:41 PM on November 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
It’s funny, I’m also very conflict averse and yet I’ve never been especially uncomfortable in this situation. I think that’s because it’s a bit of a category error to treat it as a “conflict” or an “argument.” Certainly there are specific fraught relationships where it might be, but in general both parties want the same thing here unless one is genuinely a freeloader.
posted by staggernation at 5:43 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by staggernation at 5:43 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I also add that if there are several couples and one single, in my circles, the couples cover the single. A simple, you guys have generously paid the last X times. It is my turn. I insist. Then ask the waiter to give you the bill and pay. It is not rude, it is generous and shows you are willing to reciprocate.
While thinking about it, I think those who are conflict avoidant either pay nothing or all. Sometimes, someone will say, "That is $40 per person" or something.
There are so many variables among social groups, but paying every once in a while, is the norm (for us).
posted by JohnnyGunn at 5:44 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
While thinking about it, I think those who are conflict avoidant either pay nothing or all. Sometimes, someone will say, "That is $40 per person" or something.
There are so many variables among social groups, but paying every once in a while, is the norm (for us).
posted by JohnnyGunn at 5:44 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m in the US. My friends and I always split it unless it’s a birthday or I’m thanking them for a more significant favor, like letting me stay with them. But 99% of the time we split it. This causes no conflicts or discomfort and I would highly recommend adopting this rule for yourself going forward.
posted by Amy93 at 5:48 PM on November 5, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by Amy93 at 5:48 PM on November 5, 2023 [17 favorites]
1. Yes, I was taught that it's the polite thing to do (Miss Manners seems to agree whatever that's worth) for the person who extended the invitation to pay for their guest(s).
2. "I invited you so it's my treat." If they need you to say something more: "Please let me pay for us. It's my pleasure." If they cause a scene then you might want to give up and let them pay.
3. Not that I've noticed. Most people will just say "Can we split the check?" if they don't want to pay for you.
I waited tables and have a secret trick for you if you just want to pay and avoid the conversation/social dance entirely: Excuse yourself from the table after you order. Find your server or the host and tell them to please give you the check when the meal is over. You can also give them your card/cash and tell them to just bring you a receipt/change. Boom, you paid for the meal and most people won't argue once they have no bill to pay. If your guest makes a huge deal about you paying then you know not to offer to treat them again.
Most people are kind of weird about $$$ so this stuff is awkward for a lot of people. I witnessed so so so many weird interactions between diners about who pays how much so you're not unusual for finding this stuff difficult to navigate. Also I have seen the absolute most awkward behavior (someone ALWAYS ends up overpaying to cover the people who don't leave enough $) over splitting checks so I'm not sure that solves the issue every time sadly.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 5:55 PM on November 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
2. "I invited you so it's my treat." If they need you to say something more: "Please let me pay for us. It's my pleasure." If they cause a scene then you might want to give up and let them pay.
3. Not that I've noticed. Most people will just say "Can we split the check?" if they don't want to pay for you.
I waited tables and have a secret trick for you if you just want to pay and avoid the conversation/social dance entirely: Excuse yourself from the table after you order. Find your server or the host and tell them to please give you the check when the meal is over. You can also give them your card/cash and tell them to just bring you a receipt/change. Boom, you paid for the meal and most people won't argue once they have no bill to pay. If your guest makes a huge deal about you paying then you know not to offer to treat them again.
Most people are kind of weird about $$$ so this stuff is awkward for a lot of people. I witnessed so so so many weird interactions between diners about who pays how much so you're not unusual for finding this stuff difficult to navigate. Also I have seen the absolute most awkward behavior (someone ALWAYS ends up overpaying to cover the people who don't leave enough $) over splitting checks so I'm not sure that solves the issue every time sadly.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 5:55 PM on November 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Trust your friends! Take them at their word when they say they’re happy to pay for you! (And carry cash when you want to insist on paying/contributing)
posted by itesser at 6:04 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by itesser at 6:04 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
If it's just me and one friend, I will offer to pay but it depends on the circumstances (I invited the other out, they did me a favor, etc.). If it's more than me and someone else, we'll level it off as things seem necessary (someone puts it on a card, everyone else Venmo's or whatever).
So I guess ... it's complicated and there's not one-size-fits-all here. I can mostly afford to pay under most circumstances but most of my friends also want to pay for themselves! I would say while there's a bit of "no, I'll pay!" going on, most people are happy to be responsible for themselves and no one is offended when it comes to dividing up the bill.
posted by edencosmic at 6:07 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
So I guess ... it's complicated and there's not one-size-fits-all here. I can mostly afford to pay under most circumstances but most of my friends also want to pay for themselves! I would say while there's a bit of "no, I'll pay!" going on, most people are happy to be responsible for themselves and no one is offended when it comes to dividing up the bill.
posted by edencosmic at 6:07 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm in the US.
With friends/acquaintances where we are at approximately the same economic level, it's either split right then (virtually always with separate checks, which nowhere blinks at these days) or there is an "ok, if you are paying for this one I will get the next one." In my social world, people don't do the thing of inviting someone or a group out and paying for them -- it's a mutual meeting up, so there is an expectation of mutual paying for things, more or less.
On the occasions where I am out for drinks or dinner with someone who earns much less, I'll always offer to pay and usually that is accepted -- the exception sometimes is if I am meeting up one-on-one (non-romantically) with a younger woman, who are often scrupulous about paying for their share (for the obvious reasons).
It gets more complicated with family, where the negotiations and expectations about who will pay can be weird.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:10 PM on November 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
With friends/acquaintances where we are at approximately the same economic level, it's either split right then (virtually always with separate checks, which nowhere blinks at these days) or there is an "ok, if you are paying for this one I will get the next one." In my social world, people don't do the thing of inviting someone or a group out and paying for them -- it's a mutual meeting up, so there is an expectation of mutual paying for things, more or less.
On the occasions where I am out for drinks or dinner with someone who earns much less, I'll always offer to pay and usually that is accepted -- the exception sometimes is if I am meeting up one-on-one (non-romantically) with a younger woman, who are often scrupulous about paying for their share (for the obvious reasons).
It gets more complicated with family, where the negotiations and expectations about who will pay can be weird.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:10 PM on November 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Here in Canada it has become highly normalized for waitstaff to split the bills as necessary, even for very large parties. I think this is somewhat less common in the US. As a result, I find that people are much more likely just to pay their own way rather than covering each other for social outings.
If you want to offer to pay a bill, when the waiter comes and says "together or seperate" you have to be the one to say "together" and then tell your companions that you have got this one. They will probably object and you can follow with "no, no, I have got it because I invited you" or "you got it last time" or "I owe you for the tickets" or whatever reason for not just splitting it. If you don't want someone to offer to pay your bill, be first to say "separate".
There more nuance to this depending on if you are with someone who outranks you and whether they invited you or you invited them. Those sorts of things do tend to fall under older rules.
And on a related note, for the love of all that is holy if you plan to spit bills make sure that the person who orders the thing intends to pay for it. Some restaurants will tend to split certain items across bills like apps for the table and you can ask specifically to have X on your bill. "We'll take seperate cheques and can you put the nachos on mine, please." Is okay. But lengthy "split the wine three ways but Bill didn't have any nachos so he didn't shouldn't pay for that" is aggravating. If anyone is so hard up that they need to care settle that amount yourselves after and leave the waiter out of it.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:33 PM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you want to offer to pay a bill, when the waiter comes and says "together or seperate" you have to be the one to say "together" and then tell your companions that you have got this one. They will probably object and you can follow with "no, no, I have got it because I invited you" or "you got it last time" or "I owe you for the tickets" or whatever reason for not just splitting it. If you don't want someone to offer to pay your bill, be first to say "separate".
There more nuance to this depending on if you are with someone who outranks you and whether they invited you or you invited them. Those sorts of things do tend to fall under older rules.
And on a related note, for the love of all that is holy if you plan to spit bills make sure that the person who orders the thing intends to pay for it. Some restaurants will tend to split certain items across bills like apps for the table and you can ask specifically to have X on your bill. "We'll take seperate cheques and can you put the nachos on mine, please." Is okay. But lengthy "split the wine three ways but Bill didn't have any nachos so he didn't shouldn't pay for that" is aggravating. If anyone is so hard up that they need to care settle that amount yourselves after and leave the waiter out of it.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:33 PM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
US here. Almost always, everyone pays for themselves at dinner and assumes they are going to do that. Unless we got a Big Spender person who wants to treat, in which case, fine. I second saeculorum on their post.
I will note that I hate it when two Big Spenders argue over who's covering the check, though. I have zero interest in getting into that particular fight so I will be all "okay, fine, if you wanna pay" and let's just get it over with. It's usually people who CAN afford to pay for everyone that want to do it, and if they can manage it, fine? I don't want to play any stupid games about how many times you decline before saying yes, or whatever the heck that shit is.
It is kinda comedy when going out to dinner with my mom and her boyfriend (and anyone else who may be around) because he is Mr. Big Spender and she somewhat has tendencies (with me, anyway) and she will periodically get grumbly about that/argue about it with him a bit, and sometimes she will sneak off to pay the bill privately before it comes to the table. He goes along with it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:41 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I will note that I hate it when two Big Spenders argue over who's covering the check, though. I have zero interest in getting into that particular fight so I will be all "okay, fine, if you wanna pay" and let's just get it over with. It's usually people who CAN afford to pay for everyone that want to do it, and if they can manage it, fine? I don't want to play any stupid games about how many times you decline before saying yes, or whatever the heck that shit is.
It is kinda comedy when going out to dinner with my mom and her boyfriend (and anyone else who may be around) because he is Mr. Big Spender and she somewhat has tendencies (with me, anyway) and she will periodically get grumbly about that/argue about it with him a bit, and sometimes she will sneak off to pay the bill privately before it comes to the table. He goes along with it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:41 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
French born and raised, lived in USA, UK and Canada.
Those kinds of rituals can be confusing and maddening, but basically, think of it as equity and balance: If you are having dinner with a group, the longer you have been friends, the more often you get together, then the more informal the rules and the more confortable you will be to share costs or treat others. Conversely, the more formal the occasion, the more the rules are fixed and the more you should watch what others do, and do the same.
It's nice to pay for others if you can, but if you feel obligated, then it's not so nice.
With a group of friends you know well, it's usually expected you all share the bill, or else *take turns* paying for others. In such a situation, it's nice to say "my turn to invite you, you invite me next time or some such phrase. Do not offer to pay the whole thing every time, as it might make you look arrogant or condescending (or at least not a "sharer"). Paying the whole thing without a "next time" removes the other guests their agency, and their abiility to express their care for the group.
In pub-centric cultures like the UK,the norm is that friends take turns buying a round of drinks for the group (you might say "Lemme get this round", and - importantly - let the others get the next round. Typically, this continues until the whole pub erupts in drunken songs......
That said, smaller intimate groups and dates have their own rules. Just today, I came across an article about some woman who had a tik-tok "hack" to never pay her bill on a date (these tend to always be on tik-tok and they are not "hacks", but that's not the point). The point was that her "hack" to ensure the man would always pay for the date was to wait and see if he offered to share the bill, then exclaim "Oh, I didn't realize you just wanted to be friends!", presumably to shame the man into paying. That is so gross! Never do that.
Most cultures use the sharing of meals and drinks as a ritual to make friends feel closer, and strangers feel they are accepted in the group. By all means, be generous if you can, and assume that the others in the group feel the same. In the end, no one has an ironclad recipe to know when to pay, for whom, etc. Just ask yourself what you'd want your friends to do. And conversely, if your fiends never treat others, it's either because no one at the table can afford it, or because no one is really a close friend. You have to decide how it feels.
You can never go wrong being generous, just don't feel obligated. Especially if you can't afford it. Your real friends will understand.
Now go out, have fun, eat, drink, gossip, laugh, and don't worry about the bill!
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 7:03 PM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Those kinds of rituals can be confusing and maddening, but basically, think of it as equity and balance: If you are having dinner with a group, the longer you have been friends, the more often you get together, then the more informal the rules and the more confortable you will be to share costs or treat others. Conversely, the more formal the occasion, the more the rules are fixed and the more you should watch what others do, and do the same.
It's nice to pay for others if you can, but if you feel obligated, then it's not so nice.
With a group of friends you know well, it's usually expected you all share the bill, or else *take turns* paying for others. In such a situation, it's nice to say "my turn to invite you, you invite me next time or some such phrase. Do not offer to pay the whole thing every time, as it might make you look arrogant or condescending (or at least not a "sharer"). Paying the whole thing without a "next time" removes the other guests their agency, and their abiility to express their care for the group.
In pub-centric cultures like the UK,the norm is that friends take turns buying a round of drinks for the group (you might say "Lemme get this round", and - importantly - let the others get the next round. Typically, this continues until the whole pub erupts in drunken songs......
That said, smaller intimate groups and dates have their own rules. Just today, I came across an article about some woman who had a tik-tok "hack" to never pay her bill on a date (these tend to always be on tik-tok and they are not "hacks", but that's not the point). The point was that her "hack" to ensure the man would always pay for the date was to wait and see if he offered to share the bill, then exclaim "Oh, I didn't realize you just wanted to be friends!", presumably to shame the man into paying. That is so gross! Never do that.
Most cultures use the sharing of meals and drinks as a ritual to make friends feel closer, and strangers feel they are accepted in the group. By all means, be generous if you can, and assume that the others in the group feel the same. In the end, no one has an ironclad recipe to know when to pay, for whom, etc. Just ask yourself what you'd want your friends to do. And conversely, if your fiends never treat others, it's either because no one at the table can afford it, or because no one is really a close friend. You have to decide how it feels.
You can never go wrong being generous, just don't feel obligated. Especially if you can't afford it. Your real friends will understand.
Now go out, have fun, eat, drink, gossip, laugh, and don't worry about the bill!
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 7:03 PM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I went on a date once when I was pretty young. I invited the guy but I thought we had been clear beforehand we were splitting the check. Come to the end of the meal and he didn't have any way to pay for his. He was sure since I had invited, I automatically was paying, no matter what else we had discussed. That was pretty awkward as I was driving him home. (He also made me drop him off blocks away from his house so nobody would see us together, but that was a whole other thing.)
When I was younger (but older than the above story), in my friend group of 3 to 5, we used to make a show of all trying to grab for the check and be the one to pay for the table. We were all pretty similarly situated financially, and we weren't going to places more expensive than like Olive Garden, so it tended to even out.
In my present circumstances with a routine group of 3, I am usually the one who pays at the restaurant but we split it up afterwards. I like my credit card rewards and gift card deals. What can I say.
All of this to say, it is highly variable depending on the social structure, but as long as you offer to pay, and you actually do pay at least some of the time, it is very unlikely anybody considers you a freeloader.
posted by tubedogg at 8:48 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
When I was younger (but older than the above story), in my friend group of 3 to 5, we used to make a show of all trying to grab for the check and be the one to pay for the table. We were all pretty similarly situated financially, and we weren't going to places more expensive than like Olive Garden, so it tended to even out.
In my present circumstances with a routine group of 3, I am usually the one who pays at the restaurant but we split it up afterwards. I like my credit card rewards and gift card deals. What can I say.
All of this to say, it is highly variable depending on the social structure, but as long as you offer to pay, and you actually do pay at least some of the time, it is very unlikely anybody considers you a freeloader.
posted by tubedogg at 8:48 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
So as not to abuse the edit window...
With my present circumstances, it's actually something we've discussed from time to time, so that is definitely an option, too. The time to do that, though, is not when you're at a meal and you can feel the pressure closing in, but some other time when you're just hanging out chatting or whatever.
posted by tubedogg at 8:50 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
With my present circumstances, it's actually something we've discussed from time to time, so that is definitely an option, too. The time to do that, though, is not when you're at a meal and you can feel the pressure closing in, but some other time when you're just hanging out chatting or whatever.
posted by tubedogg at 8:50 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
If I'm with close, equally bombastic male friends of about the same socioeconomic status and who carry cash, we just start randomly pitching 20s onto the table until it's approximately covered, then if it's under, someone gets the remainder and adds a tip. If I'm with folks who carry plastic, we just make increasingly devious arrangements to cover the bill out from behind each others' backs. It's been like this since we were all broke back in the 90s -- the numbers are just larger now.
Outside of those circles, I just try to judge if it'll be taken the wrong way when I snake the bill. I do get huffy if nobody lets me pony up after a few times, though.
As you can see, these things vary widely depending on social circle and relationship expectations. In the culture and subcultures I swim in, it's considered broadly acceptable to go out of your way to take care of the bill for others, and considered bad form to impose even the roughest kind of effort towards equalization let alone to have a heuristic. It all comes out in the wash.
posted by majick at 9:01 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Outside of those circles, I just try to judge if it'll be taken the wrong way when I snake the bill. I do get huffy if nobody lets me pony up after a few times, though.
As you can see, these things vary widely depending on social circle and relationship expectations. In the culture and subcultures I swim in, it's considered broadly acceptable to go out of your way to take care of the bill for others, and considered bad form to impose even the roughest kind of effort towards equalization let alone to have a heuristic. It all comes out in the wash.
posted by majick at 9:01 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just wanted to add a couple of things:
1. You may not be as socially inept as you seem to think! You seem to have a grasp of the issues, but you seem to think it's all on you. I bet your friends and acquaintances, if they enjoy your company, will go along with any fair arrangement. Don't blame yourself, everyone else is just as in the dark, and we all flail around at bill time.
2. As you and others have noticed, there is a lot of "performative bill haggling": Among my friends, it ranges from ostentatiously grabbing the bill from the server and saying such movie lines as "your money's no good in this place", "don't you dare reach for your wallet", or such nonsense. Nobody's fooled by this. It's a ritualised way of saying "I care for you guys and I want to treat you tonight". You might be conflict averse, but try to see it not as a real conflict, more like mock conflict, the way doggies mock-growl at each other when they play.
3. You probably get anxious in advance, rehearsing in your head what might happen at bill time, and how you should act. The next time you go out, let everyone else do the haggling. Stand by, observe and go with the flow. The time after that, try a different routine: Offer to pay this time, or if someone else pays for you, tell them you will return the favour next time. Then see what feels best to you.
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 9:03 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
1. You may not be as socially inept as you seem to think! You seem to have a grasp of the issues, but you seem to think it's all on you. I bet your friends and acquaintances, if they enjoy your company, will go along with any fair arrangement. Don't blame yourself, everyone else is just as in the dark, and we all flail around at bill time.
2. As you and others have noticed, there is a lot of "performative bill haggling": Among my friends, it ranges from ostentatiously grabbing the bill from the server and saying such movie lines as "your money's no good in this place", "don't you dare reach for your wallet", or such nonsense. Nobody's fooled by this. It's a ritualised way of saying "I care for you guys and I want to treat you tonight". You might be conflict averse, but try to see it not as a real conflict, more like mock conflict, the way doggies mock-growl at each other when they play.
3. You probably get anxious in advance, rehearsing in your head what might happen at bill time, and how you should act. The next time you go out, let everyone else do the haggling. Stand by, observe and go with the flow. The time after that, try a different routine: Offer to pay this time, or if someone else pays for you, tell them you will return the favour next time. Then see what feels best to you.
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 9:03 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
UK: I've never personally encountered this "person who invites pays", unless there's very significant financial disparity, and even then it's not an assumption or a rule unless it's the boss or the in-laws doing the inviting. If I have a good job, and I want to get a coffee or small lunch with a good friend who's unemployed, then I'll pay the whole bill. That can be fine if it's really obvious that the bill is an insignificant amount for me, I'm not expecting reciprocation and I'm not playing weird status games.
I also might buy someone dinner as a gift. Maybe to thank them for something, or it's their birthday, or maybe something bad happened and they need cheering up. But then I'd say "I'd like to buy you dinner / take you out for dinner" to make it really clear. I wouldn't say "let's get dinner" and then just pay the bill.
Apart from those specific scenarios, with groups of my same age(ish) peers it's either separate bills (if some people in the group are struggling for cash) or split the bill equally (if everyone's got enough money, so it doesn't matter who had three beers and a side).
If someone's offering to pay, I'd say something like "I'll get the next one then", "You got it last time so it's my turn", "let's just split the bill, that's easier".
If someone repeatedly insists on paying, that can definitely be weird. You can pretend to go to the bathroom mid-meal and go pay the bill at the counter, or else just have a private chat with the friend and tell them it makes you uncomfortable and you'd rather pay your share.
posted by quacks like a duck at 2:37 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I also might buy someone dinner as a gift. Maybe to thank them for something, or it's their birthday, or maybe something bad happened and they need cheering up. But then I'd say "I'd like to buy you dinner / take you out for dinner" to make it really clear. I wouldn't say "let's get dinner" and then just pay the bill.
Apart from those specific scenarios, with groups of my same age(ish) peers it's either separate bills (if some people in the group are struggling for cash) or split the bill equally (if everyone's got enough money, so it doesn't matter who had three beers and a side).
If someone's offering to pay, I'd say something like "I'll get the next one then", "You got it last time so it's my turn", "let's just split the bill, that's easier".
If someone repeatedly insists on paying, that can definitely be weird. You can pretend to go to the bathroom mid-meal and go pay the bill at the counter, or else just have a private chat with the friend and tell them it makes you uncomfortable and you'd rather pay your share.
posted by quacks like a duck at 2:37 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
With friends I generally expect to split if there are several of us or to take turns if it is just one friend. I have one friend who has now picked up the bill for the last few meals. When we met last month and she insisted on paying again I pointed this out. She stated that we always meet in her city when I live several hrs away and it was only fair she pay for meals as I incur the time and expense of travelling...I don't travel just to meet her but at least we had the conversation and I don't have to feel like a freeloader now.
With family I tend to be the person with the highest income so I tend to pay unless I am with people who are very sensitive about 'needing to pay their share'...I even got my aunt to accept that she doesn't have to pay now that I am no longer a poor student and she is retired...
posted by koahiatamadl at 3:16 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
With family I tend to be the person with the highest income so I tend to pay unless I am with people who are very sensitive about 'needing to pay their share'...I even got my aunt to accept that she doesn't have to pay now that I am no longer a poor student and she is retired...
posted by koahiatamadl at 3:16 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just for some additional data points, I got some very helpful answers when I asked a similar question. My conclusion was essentially that I should politely offer to pay once or twice, but if the other person insists, take them at their word and let them pay.
posted by yankeefog at 4:00 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by yankeefog at 4:00 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
My personal anecdata: I always assume the bill will be split in the absence of any other discussion. If I’m inviting someone out and intending to pay for them, I make that clear at the time of invitation (“Can I take you to lunch, my treat?”). More complicated arrangements (trading off who pays, or the person who makes significantly more generally being the one to pay) are limited to people I’ve been friends with for a long time, in which case we have a good enough relationship to have discussed such details.
If there’s a regular group you’ve eaten with who offer to pay for you regularly, where you are particularly worried they might see you as a freeloader, it wouldn’t hurt to bring up the topic directly, kind of as you’ve done for this Ask? Eg. either at an unrelated time, or next time someone else in that group offers to pay, say something like “I know I’m socially awkward in general and I don’t really know how to negotiate paying for dinner in particular, and I’ve been worried I’m being a freeloader.” Phrase it so that it’s about them helping you with your social awkwardness, not about the money issue (at least not directly), as a way around any potential ask vs. guess culture issues which can combine with people being uncomfortable talking about money issues. Everyone likes giving advice to help their friends be more comfortable in social situations!
posted by eviemath at 4:35 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
If there’s a regular group you’ve eaten with who offer to pay for you regularly, where you are particularly worried they might see you as a freeloader, it wouldn’t hurt to bring up the topic directly, kind of as you’ve done for this Ask? Eg. either at an unrelated time, or next time someone else in that group offers to pay, say something like “I know I’m socially awkward in general and I don’t really know how to negotiate paying for dinner in particular, and I’ve been worried I’m being a freeloader.” Phrase it so that it’s about them helping you with your social awkwardness, not about the money issue (at least not directly), as a way around any potential ask vs. guess culture issues which can combine with people being uncomfortable talking about money issues. Everyone likes giving advice to help their friends be more comfortable in social situations!
posted by eviemath at 4:35 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
“Let’s just split it even” is a great fallback position after you’ve had a round of people disagreeing over who pays. In my experience this works most of the time. If someone still insists after that, then I agree that you let it go and say “I got it next time.”
posted by Mid at 5:46 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mid at 5:46 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
If it was me that suggested dinner in the first place, does this imply an obligation for me to cover the bill?
I've never heard this, although "suggesting" and "inviting" are different. If you're in a situation where it's mealtime and people would generally want to stop somewhere, I would say that "How about Place?" or "Let's go to Thing" constitutes a suggestion, not an invitation. I'd expect to pay for myself or split the bill in that situation.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:38 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've never heard this, although "suggesting" and "inviting" are different. If you're in a situation where it's mealtime and people would generally want to stop somewhere, I would say that "How about Place?" or "Let's go to Thing" constitutes a suggestion, not an invitation. I'd expect to pay for myself or split the bill in that situation.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:38 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Brown person in the UK here. I grew up among people who performatively fight over the bill, to the point of stuffing money in each other's pockets and making little kids take cash to their parents. Then I went to university with rich kids who performatively bought each other rounds at pubs and clubs (and got into debt for the first time, yay). After which, I moved to Germany where the bill was always split precisely, tableside, by waitstaff with calculators and big change purses.
I've ended up as someone who usually says, "I'll get this one if you get the next one." Unless the person earns way less/is way younger than me, in which case I'll just say the first part. I say it right when we order, usually, to get it out of the way. The exception is in the first stages of dating, when I would expect to split it at the end.
posted by guessthis at 6:53 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've ended up as someone who usually says, "I'll get this one if you get the next one." Unless the person earns way less/is way younger than me, in which case I'll just say the first part. I say it right when we order, usually, to get it out of the way. The exception is in the first stages of dating, when I would expect to split it at the end.
posted by guessthis at 6:53 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Canada - for my entire life, it's been a strong norm to pay our own personal bills in friend groups, with very few exceptions (the only ones I can think of are when travelling, either to places like the US that are grumpy about or outright refuse multiple bills, or times where someone is missing the local currency).
Even for something like a birthday dinner, and definitely regardless of who suggested the outing, the default would always be separate bills. I'm shocked at the idea of being on the hook for the whole group's bill of several hundred $ just for suggesting a meal together. That is certainly not the norm here, although I can't say whether it may be elsewhere. The one exception is when being invited by older family members to family celebrations at a restaurant, they'll usually pay, but this seems outside of your defined parameters.
posted by randomnity at 7:02 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Even for something like a birthday dinner, and definitely regardless of who suggested the outing, the default would always be separate bills. I'm shocked at the idea of being on the hook for the whole group's bill of several hundred $ just for suggesting a meal together. That is certainly not the norm here, although I can't say whether it may be elsewhere. The one exception is when being invited by older family members to family celebrations at a restaurant, they'll usually pay, but this seems outside of your defined parameters.
posted by randomnity at 7:02 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
In Seattle, in my circles, everyone I know does separate checks as the norm unless they are feeling celebratory or splurgy or a gesture of friendly affection.
When in doubt: separate checks.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:33 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
When in doubt: separate checks.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:33 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
US, middle-aged: the vast majority of times I eat out with other people we split the bill. Most often we are a couple eating with another couple; in those cases we almost always just split the check down the middle regardless of who ordered what. We hand the server two cards and they are happy to split it evenly. I can't remember the last time I ate in a restaurant that wouldn't take N number of cards and split it that many ways (or even like "50% on this card and 25% on each of these two" or similar). In the case of a couple eating with a single, we might say something like "please put $50 (or whatever we had agreed on as reasonable) on this card and the rest on the other".
TBH I don't know if US restaurants are typically able (or happy) to do actual separate checks (where each person is charged for the specific items they ordered), but they are generally able to split the total in many different ways.
posted by sriracha at 7:44 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
TBH I don't know if US restaurants are typically able (or happy) to do actual separate checks (where each person is charged for the specific items they ordered), but they are generally able to split the total in many different ways.
posted by sriracha at 7:44 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm American but split my time between the US and Europe. Among friends we split the bill 99% of the time, even among closer friends. If seperate checks aren't possible (some restaurants don't like the hassle), one person pays and everyone else pays their portion via Venmo/Swish/etc.
Just today, I came across an article about some woman who had a tik-tok "hack" to never pay her bill on a date
I know OP was asking about non-romantic dinners, but PLEASE don't do this. I ran into this situation more than a few times when I was still single (as a cishet male) and honestly considered it a bit of a red flag, particularly if it was a date with someone I barely knew. (Personally I'd consider a non-ironic reference to "tiktok hacks" as a second red flag, but that might just be me).
posted by photo guy at 8:01 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just today, I came across an article about some woman who had a tik-tok "hack" to never pay her bill on a date
I know OP was asking about non-romantic dinners, but PLEASE don't do this. I ran into this situation more than a few times when I was still single (as a cishet male) and honestly considered it a bit of a red flag, particularly if it was a date with someone I barely knew. (Personally I'd consider a non-ironic reference to "tiktok hacks" as a second red flag, but that might just be me).
posted by photo guy at 8:01 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ask the server for separate checks. If someone really insists on paying, I won't argue much, but will say Oh, this makes me uncomfortable. i don't want to argue but prefer to pay my way.
posted by theora55 at 8:21 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 8:21 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
In Canada, at least in my white, European ancestry experience, it is the strong, strong norm to get separate cheques and for each party to pay their own way; it is not awkward, ever, because this is almost always the social expectation among friend groups and waitstaff always expects this and usually proactively offers the option/asks which way the bill should be split.
The only time I would say that this isn't in play is if a set of friends has a reciprocal relationship in terms of paying for things and not seeking 1:1 reimbursement. For instance, I buy a movie or concert ticket for my friend so we can sit together. Sometimes they would just pay me back the money, but if we were close friends, it would be more likely they would treat me to dinner or something in return, but there is almost always a stated intention in advance of whatever the in-kind reimbursement is.
Otherwise, sometimes this happens for low-cost items/activities, like going out for coffee in a pair, especially if the two people haven't seen each other in a while, but it's rare and would normally be reciprocated the next time.
For your question 2, yes, if someone offers, it is correct social form to originally decline, though maybe only once before accepting, but I am like you and usually just accept with a thank you after asking whether they are sure, and then that enters into my mental in-kind reimbursement scenario, as above.
If it was a superior from work or someone who I am paying for a service and the meal in question is related to that business relationship (and could be written off by them as a business expense), I happily let them pay without ever declining, say thank you, and never think of it again.
For 3, never. That would be very strange. If you make the offer, you are paying.
posted by urbanlenny at 9:32 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
The only time I would say that this isn't in play is if a set of friends has a reciprocal relationship in terms of paying for things and not seeking 1:1 reimbursement. For instance, I buy a movie or concert ticket for my friend so we can sit together. Sometimes they would just pay me back the money, but if we were close friends, it would be more likely they would treat me to dinner or something in return, but there is almost always a stated intention in advance of whatever the in-kind reimbursement is.
Otherwise, sometimes this happens for low-cost items/activities, like going out for coffee in a pair, especially if the two people haven't seen each other in a while, but it's rare and would normally be reciprocated the next time.
For your question 2, yes, if someone offers, it is correct social form to originally decline, though maybe only once before accepting, but I am like you and usually just accept with a thank you after asking whether they are sure, and then that enters into my mental in-kind reimbursement scenario, as above.
If it was a superior from work or someone who I am paying for a service and the meal in question is related to that business relationship (and could be written off by them as a business expense), I happily let them pay without ever declining, say thank you, and never think of it again.
For 3, never. That would be very strange. If you make the offer, you are paying.
posted by urbanlenny at 9:32 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Middleaged USAen living in NYC...
1. In what circumstances is there an expectation that I'll pay the bill? If it was me that suggested dinner in the first place, does this imply an obligation for me to cover the bill?
I'd say there is an expectation only in two circumstances: (a) if you ask someone out on a date; or (b) if your invitation includes something like, "I'd like to take you out to dinner."
2. If I offer to pay the bill, I suppose that the other person might decline once or twice for the sake of form, all the time expecting to accept the offer. What's the proper response here?
Mock-fighting over who has the privilege of paying the bill can get to be a bit of a pissing contest among people who want to display their wealth. Best advice is not to offer this unless you're happy to pay the whole bill, in which case I just plop down my card as soon as the server arrives and say something like "I got this." I do this occasionally to pay it forward when grabbing a bite and/or a beer with a performing artist colleague who is at an age when I can remember money being pretty tight for me. The only situation in which I think it makes sense to discuss who is paying the bill is with a good friend with whom you go out frequently and the two of you have a custom where one person pays and the other person pays next time, with a kind of informal "mental running balance."
3. Is it a common social strategy to offer to pay for dinner as a polite gesture, while expecting the other party to decline?
No, I don't think so. As I wrote above, don't offer to pay unless you're happy to pay. To that I'd add that you shouldn't offer unless you can comfortably afford to pay the whole bill, and you don't mind if your counterpart doesn't reciprocate. Paying the whole bill is a gift: It should be given freely just as it is, with no expectation that it will be "paid back" with an equivalent gift.
posted by slkinsey at 1:01 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
1. In what circumstances is there an expectation that I'll pay the bill? If it was me that suggested dinner in the first place, does this imply an obligation for me to cover the bill?
I'd say there is an expectation only in two circumstances: (a) if you ask someone out on a date; or (b) if your invitation includes something like, "I'd like to take you out to dinner."
2. If I offer to pay the bill, I suppose that the other person might decline once or twice for the sake of form, all the time expecting to accept the offer. What's the proper response here?
Mock-fighting over who has the privilege of paying the bill can get to be a bit of a pissing contest among people who want to display their wealth. Best advice is not to offer this unless you're happy to pay the whole bill, in which case I just plop down my card as soon as the server arrives and say something like "I got this." I do this occasionally to pay it forward when grabbing a bite and/or a beer with a performing artist colleague who is at an age when I can remember money being pretty tight for me. The only situation in which I think it makes sense to discuss who is paying the bill is with a good friend with whom you go out frequently and the two of you have a custom where one person pays and the other person pays next time, with a kind of informal "mental running balance."
3. Is it a common social strategy to offer to pay for dinner as a polite gesture, while expecting the other party to decline?
No, I don't think so. As I wrote above, don't offer to pay unless you're happy to pay. To that I'd add that you shouldn't offer unless you can comfortably afford to pay the whole bill, and you don't mind if your counterpart doesn't reciprocate. Paying the whole bill is a gift: It should be given freely just as it is, with no expectation that it will be "paid back" with an equivalent gift.
posted by slkinsey at 1:01 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd say the norm among my friends is to split the bill, either with multiple credit cards or paying back via Venmo. There are a few exceptions: if there's a big income difference, there's more likely to be treating, and this has gone in both directions for me. I'm more inclined to treat a friend of mine who is younger and doesn't make very much money, or we split, but I'd never expect her to treat.
With friends I see quite regularly, sometimes we take turns, but it's also easy to forget whose turn it is.
Among my friends, nobody is doing the thing of offering/insisting on treating. And no, there's no expectation that the person who initiated the plans will treat, unless it's clearly communicated in advance. And we do treat on birthdays.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:09 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
With friends I see quite regularly, sometimes we take turns, but it's also easy to forget whose turn it is.
Among my friends, nobody is doing the thing of offering/insisting on treating. And no, there's no expectation that the person who initiated the plans will treat, unless it's clearly communicated in advance. And we do treat on birthdays.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:09 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh, I'll also add that it's common practice in my circles to split the bill into equal "shares" unless one person's order is clearly a lot more expensive, in which case it's usual for the expensive eater/drinker to offer to pay a larger portion (or you just learned the valuable lesson they're a jerk who's doing it on purpose). Same thing in reverse if everyone had a big steak except one person who had a salad. If everyone's meal cost is in the same neighborhood give or take some reasonable amount for the overall price point, I think it's unduly parsimonious to tot up exactly each person's dinner cost and allocate different payment amounts to each diner on that basis. If one of the people at the table is watching their budget that closely, it's probably not a great idea to go to that establishment.
posted by slkinsey at 1:22 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by slkinsey at 1:22 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you all for your replies! This has been really helpful. I think my default policy from now on will be this:
- I'll make it my default assumption that we'll pay separately.
- If the other person insists on paying, I'll object twice. (I like the idea of using cheesy movie lines.) If they still insist after two objections, I'll let them pay and make a note to pay next time.
- If I'm going to pay, I'll do so surreptitiously earlier in the meal, to avoid arguments.
posted by HoraceH at 2:17 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
- I'll make it my default assumption that we'll pay separately.
- If the other person insists on paying, I'll object twice. (I like the idea of using cheesy movie lines.) If they still insist after two objections, I'll let them pay and make a note to pay next time.
- If I'm going to pay, I'll do so surreptitiously earlier in the meal, to avoid arguments.
posted by HoraceH at 2:17 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ohhh, I forgot ye olde Venmo. A lot of people these days just have one person pay and then everyone else has to Venmo (or Apple Pay/CashApp/whatever other damn apps) them theirs.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:13 PM on November 7, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:13 PM on November 7, 2023
I'm sorry to jump back in, but I saw your last comment and needed to add a note of caution:
In your initial post you said you were very conflict averse. If so, don't you think that if you plan on paying for the meal, paying it surreptitiously earlier in the meal would create *more* conflict, not less? If someone did that with me, even if I appreciated the gesture, it might trigger all kinds of questions:
- "did that person not trust me enough to discuss it?"
- "they might be a caring friend to pay for my meal, but why did they go behind my back?"
- "did they think I couldn't afford it, were they embarrassed to ask me to share?"
- "are they taking it for granted that it's their role to pay?"
All I'm saying is that it's perfectly fine to offer to treat others, but the "argument" is part of the fun, or at least part of the ritual.
Why not just try this: When the bill comes, if you want to treat others, just say "Hey you guys, this was really fun and I had a really great time. I'd really like to treat you tonight. Let's do this again soon. Your treat next time?" There might be a bit of good natured haggling, but overall it should smooth over soon.
That sounds better to me than the server going "No need for your card. Your bill was already paid By HoraceH of Metafilter"
(Come to think of it "your bill was paid by Metafilter" sounds good to me!)
All the best....
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 10:40 PM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
In your initial post you said you were very conflict averse. If so, don't you think that if you plan on paying for the meal, paying it surreptitiously earlier in the meal would create *more* conflict, not less? If someone did that with me, even if I appreciated the gesture, it might trigger all kinds of questions:
- "did that person not trust me enough to discuss it?"
- "they might be a caring friend to pay for my meal, but why did they go behind my back?"
- "did they think I couldn't afford it, were they embarrassed to ask me to share?"
- "are they taking it for granted that it's their role to pay?"
All I'm saying is that it's perfectly fine to offer to treat others, but the "argument" is part of the fun, or at least part of the ritual.
Why not just try this: When the bill comes, if you want to treat others, just say "Hey you guys, this was really fun and I had a really great time. I'd really like to treat you tonight. Let's do this again soon. Your treat next time?" There might be a bit of good natured haggling, but overall it should smooth over soon.
That sounds better to me than the server going "No need for your card. Your bill was already paid By HoraceH of Metafilter"
(Come to think of it "your bill was paid by Metafilter" sounds good to me!)
All the best....
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 10:40 PM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
Try to remember that this is not really a conflict, it’s a social dance of demonstrating generosity and demonstrating gratitude. It’s not a nice feeling if your friend always expects you to pay, unless there’s a significant power imbalance in your relationship.
posted by chocotaco at 5:33 PM on November 5, 2023 [17 favorites]