I'm not sure what to make of "Jesus Loves You"
October 21, 2021 9:49 AM Subscribe
My HVAC guy, the father and son who take care of my lawn, the guy who details my car: they all say 'God Bless You' or 'Jesus Loves You' or something similar at the end of every text, email, and face to face encounter. I'm not sure how to feel about this, or how to respond because as a Jew I know that anyone who invokes Christ instead of saying "take it easy" thinks I'm going to burn in Hell.
My questions are:
1) Have any Christian denominations softened or modernized their stance on accept-Christ-or-burn-in Hell? The idea that every Jew, Buddhist, Muslim, Shintoist, etc is damned seems at once not very Christian and completely (read: doctrinally) Christian.
2) Is there any point in my asking them how they reconcile the fact they say "God Bless You' to someone they believe is going to Hell?
NB: Big picture, this doesn't trouble or offend me or make me feel differently about what fine people all of them are. I'm more just curious about what they're thinking, and what I should think in turn.
My questions are:
1) Have any Christian denominations softened or modernized their stance on accept-Christ-or-burn-in Hell? The idea that every Jew, Buddhist, Muslim, Shintoist, etc is damned seems at once not very Christian and completely (read: doctrinally) Christian.
2) Is there any point in my asking them how they reconcile the fact they say "God Bless You' to someone they believe is going to Hell?
NB: Big picture, this doesn't trouble or offend me or make me feel differently about what fine people all of them are. I'm more just curious about what they're thinking, and what I should think in turn.
1. Not all Christians believe this, and a lot don't really think it much even if they technically believe it. But yeah, chances are good for a lot of Christians if you ask them specifically "do you think people who don't believe Jesus are going to hell?" they will probably have to say something along the lines of yes.
2. They aren't thinking about whether you are going to Hell or not. They aren't thinking about you at. all. (Which is part of the offense, sigh.)
If they have thought about it at all, they are likely to be engaging in virtue signaling about their own piety. In some cases they probably believe that by putting that in their email, Jesus loves them more and gives them business/wealth (prosperity gospel.) In some cases probably they have such large blinders on that they think everyone is Christian and so everyone signs their email that way.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:07 AM on October 21, 2021 [29 favorites]
2. They aren't thinking about whether you are going to Hell or not. They aren't thinking about you at. all. (Which is part of the offense, sigh.)
If they have thought about it at all, they are likely to be engaging in virtue signaling about their own piety. In some cases they probably believe that by putting that in their email, Jesus loves them more and gives them business/wealth (prosperity gospel.) In some cases probably they have such large blinders on that they think everyone is Christian and so everyone signs their email that way.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:07 AM on October 21, 2021 [29 favorites]
Ignore. I am Jewish. I see it as everyone is entitled to their beliefs. These are service people with whom I exchange cash/money for services. Nothing more. Religion and their personal beliefs are just that, their beliefs. They are not trying to convince me or attack me anymore than when one of their relatives dies and I say, "May their memory be a blessing."
If it bothers you that much, get new service people.
posted by AugustWest at 10:09 AM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
If it bothers you that much, get new service people.
posted by AugustWest at 10:09 AM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
This survey says that the majority of Americans Christians believe that other faiths can achieve "salvation." The idea that people who aren't Christian will go to hell seems like something only evangelical Christians would believe, but I don't know that for sure. Jesus didn't even believe that hell existed.
posted by pinochiette at 10:09 AM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by pinochiette at 10:09 AM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
Any time a reference would be made to someone being Jewish my grandmother, who was a real intolerant shit in many respects, would wistfully remark, "well, they are the chosen people." I don't know how that makes you feel about it. She didn't like you, but you certainly weren't going to hell by her rubric.
posted by phunniemee at 10:28 AM on October 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 10:28 AM on October 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
not my personal views...
I mean pretty much everyone is going to hell. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be nice to folks. Or, more importantly, shouldn't try to save them by spreading the "good news" of the J-dude.
Love the sinner, hate the sin
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 10:37 AM on October 21, 2021
I mean pretty much everyone is going to hell. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be nice to folks. Or, more importantly, shouldn't try to save them by spreading the "good news" of the J-dude.
Love the sinner, hate the sin
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 10:37 AM on October 21, 2021
I'm more just curious about what they're thinking, and what I should think in turn.
I'm Jewish. I had a very Christian plumber once who would say stuff like this. My thought process was twofold
- well that's unusual (up here it is)
- since I don't believe in hell, who cares what they think about it?
I certainly felt it was weird, talking about your faith like that, but that's a big divide between at least some of Christianity and Judaism. Part of their thing is talking about their thing. Certainly not true for everyone, but I honestly see it as a weird tic, more like saying "Bless you" after someone sneezes. I'd prefer they didn't do it, but I don't think much about it.
posted by jessamyn at 10:40 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm Jewish. I had a very Christian plumber once who would say stuff like this. My thought process was twofold
- well that's unusual (up here it is)
- since I don't believe in hell, who cares what they think about it?
I certainly felt it was weird, talking about your faith like that, but that's a big divide between at least some of Christianity and Judaism. Part of their thing is talking about their thing. Certainly not true for everyone, but I honestly see it as a weird tic, more like saying "Bless you" after someone sneezes. I'd prefer they didn't do it, but I don't think much about it.
posted by jessamyn at 10:40 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
I feel you--that kind of overt religiosity feels like a cudgel to my highly secular jewish self, but I don't think it's actually wielded as such...mostly. Now I'm sure that:
-this varies by location and
-the experiences of more visible minorities may differ
But often I feel like these displays are not meant to "warn" non-Christians but rather to signal other Christians. It's like yelling "DENTAL PLAN" at a party to see who answers with "Lisa needs braces!"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:47 AM on October 21, 2021 [26 favorites]
-this varies by location and
-the experiences of more visible minorities may differ
But often I feel like these displays are not meant to "warn" non-Christians but rather to signal other Christians. It's like yelling "DENTAL PLAN" at a party to see who answers with "Lisa needs braces!"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:47 AM on October 21, 2021 [26 favorites]
Hah, to me it feels oppressive and threatening, like a majority culture with a very long history of violently imposing itself on others, including my own ancestors, is making sure I know it's still there. (I realize that the real reason may be unthinking cluelessness on their part, but still, that's my immediate visceral reaction to this stuff.)
I probably wouldn't talk with these guys about it because of that specific possibility - that they're not being clueless but are doing it intentionally with some Christian-supremacy agenda.
On the specific question of Jews going to hell, I thought there was some doctrinal grandfather clause where we don't get damned quite as badly, or something, and therefore Christians aren't quite as duty-bound to convert us as they are other heathens? But I don't have the time to look it up right now.
posted by trig at 10:51 AM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
I probably wouldn't talk with these guys about it because of that specific possibility - that they're not being clueless but are doing it intentionally with some Christian-supremacy agenda.
On the specific question of Jews going to hell, I thought there was some doctrinal grandfather clause where we don't get damned quite as badly, or something, and therefore Christians aren't quite as duty-bound to convert us as they are other heathens? But I don't have the time to look it up right now.
posted by trig at 10:51 AM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
A lot of people are members of newer, interfaith, nonspecific-but-studying-the-bible-critically churches, and they can be very enthusiastic and friendly. From what I can tell, a lot of them would, not laugh because that would be insensitive, but not really take seriously the idea that you aren't fully human and loved just because of how you were raised or what you believe right now.
I'm not saying this is the majority of Christians, but it is a lot of them.
Also, a comment like this could be an opening for you to say something life- or community- affirming, or even, "I feel so blessed that we live in a world where we have so much rich knowledge and good medical science!" or, if you figure out a super sweet nonthreatening way, "We are all so fortunate to have this miraculous vaccine!"
posted by amtho at 10:56 AM on October 21, 2021
I'm not saying this is the majority of Christians, but it is a lot of them.
Also, a comment like this could be an opening for you to say something life- or community- affirming, or even, "I feel so blessed that we live in a world where we have so much rich knowledge and good medical science!" or, if you figure out a super sweet nonthreatening way, "We are all so fortunate to have this miraculous vaccine!"
posted by amtho at 10:56 AM on October 21, 2021
1) Have any Christian denominations softened or modernized their stance on accept-Christ-or-burn-in Hell?Yeah, definitely. Official Catholic doctrine is that some non-believers can go to Heaven. But for a lot of Protestants, the bottom line is that the only way to salvation is to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. (Not all Protestants, and I think some of them fudge it by hoping that you and I will accept Jesus in the very moment before we die, so that we can live all of our lives but one second as Jews but die as Christians and go to Heaven.) And I guess that, while I think that's a kind of weird thing to choose to believe, I also think that it's their problem, not mine. It would be super stressful to believe that the world was full of perfectly nice people who were going to be condemned to eternal torment because they happened to be born in the wrong place or the wrong time or the wrong family. Rather than be offended by it, I try to feel sympathy for people who think they have to believe something that seems like it would be pretty upsetting.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:56 AM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
This is not in direct answer to your question, but I find that any business who advertises their faith is doing so as part of their branding. And in general, and this may be a very unfair generalization, I have found faith-based businesses to do subpar work.
posted by nanook at 10:56 AM on October 21, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by nanook at 10:56 AM on October 21, 2021 [10 favorites]
(this article has a bit about the Vatican's position, but hopefully someone who knows more will be along)
posted by trig at 10:58 AM on October 21, 2021
posted by trig at 10:58 AM on October 21, 2021
Response by poster: hopefully someone who knows more will be along
Yeah, where's Eyebrows McGee. She's super knowledgeable
posted by BadgerDoctor at 11:08 AM on October 21, 2021
Yeah, where's Eyebrows McGee. She's super knowledgeable
posted by BadgerDoctor at 11:08 AM on October 21, 2021
Have any Christian denominations softened or modernized their stance on accept-Christ-or-burn-in Hell?
Yes and no. It's very much a fundamentalist or evangelical view to hold that as a primary underpinning of Christianity. Those are often the more vocal Christians though. Other more liberal Protestant denominations are more likely to formally hold that position but find loopholes, particularly in conversation with a non-Christian. You might also find the loopholes offensive. Some very liberal churches, like the UCC don't take this stance at all or find it irrelevant.
Catholics have a complicated relationship with what is a very Protestant doctrine (salvation by faith alone), which I think is best summarised by not even thinking you have accepted Christ is enough to save you for sure, so better do good works and obey the church. If asked, the Pope would say that potentially you or anyone could go to heaven but none of us can be certain. I can't speak to Orthodox or other Eastern Christian denominations but I suspect closer to Catholicism than Protestantism.
posted by plonkee at 11:10 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yes and no. It's very much a fundamentalist or evangelical view to hold that as a primary underpinning of Christianity. Those are often the more vocal Christians though. Other more liberal Protestant denominations are more likely to formally hold that position but find loopholes, particularly in conversation with a non-Christian. You might also find the loopholes offensive. Some very liberal churches, like the UCC don't take this stance at all or find it irrelevant.
Catholics have a complicated relationship with what is a very Protestant doctrine (salvation by faith alone), which I think is best summarised by not even thinking you have accepted Christ is enough to save you for sure, so better do good works and obey the church. If asked, the Pope would say that potentially you or anyone could go to heaven but none of us can be certain. I can't speak to Orthodox or other Eastern Christian denominations but I suspect closer to Catholicism than Protestantism.
posted by plonkee at 11:10 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
As a Jew in a major metropolitan area, I don't come into contact with proselytizers very often. I might feel more annoyed if it were a constant issue, but conceptually at least, I somewhat appreciate the intent, as long as it's done in a loving and nonthreatening way. If you're someone who truly believes that people who don't accept Christ will be going to Hell, it seems generous to try to help those us of who have not yet seen the light. A "Jesus Loves You" email signature is a gentle approach, which I can easily ignore.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:18 AM on October 21, 2021
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:18 AM on October 21, 2021
I think there are a lot of people who say "god bless you" as a way to be nice, and are not remotely thinking about hell at all, and certainly most of them are not wishing hell upon you because you're from a different (but adjacent!) religion.
Also they may not even know you're Jewish - I had a neighbour once say "well we have a mezzuzah" and not a single non-Jewish person in the convo had ever even noticed a mezzuzah nor knew what it was! I don't want to gaslight that's totally a possibility.
And "Jesus loves you" could be interpreted as "don't worry, I don't hate you even though you believe different things than me", which is patronizing but not mean.
I say this as someone who was raised by fairly devout catholics, and my relatives still "god bless" at me frequently and without ill intent- even though they're a bit horrified that I CHOSE to deny their god and am vocally atheist. I know them enough to identify every wee flake of passive aggression (and there are many) but in my family, "god bless you" isn't at all intended in a judgemental or passive-aggressive way- it's just what they see as the most sincere way to wish me well.
Certainly this doesn't apply to all christians, but it's definitely many, and maybe even most, christians.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:21 AM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Also they may not even know you're Jewish - I had a neighbour once say "well we have a mezzuzah" and not a single non-Jewish person in the convo had ever even noticed a mezzuzah nor knew what it was! I don't want to gaslight that's totally a possibility.
And "Jesus loves you" could be interpreted as "don't worry, I don't hate you even though you believe different things than me", which is patronizing but not mean.
I say this as someone who was raised by fairly devout catholics, and my relatives still "god bless" at me frequently and without ill intent- even though they're a bit horrified that I CHOSE to deny their god and am vocally atheist. I know them enough to identify every wee flake of passive aggression (and there are many) but in my family, "god bless you" isn't at all intended in a judgemental or passive-aggressive way- it's just what they see as the most sincere way to wish me well.
Certainly this doesn't apply to all christians, but it's definitely many, and maybe even most, christians.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:21 AM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Also, my experience is that many Christians* don't really ever think about a point of view that isn't infused with default Christianity. They have probably never considered that them saying 'God bless you' needs reconciling, because in their world view it is an obviously nice/kind platitude
*And many nominal Christians or non-religious people who live in a nominally Christian place, including me unless I actively try.
posted by plonkee at 11:21 AM on October 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
*And many nominal Christians or non-religious people who live in a nominally Christian place, including me unless I actively try.
posted by plonkee at 11:21 AM on October 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
1) Have any Christian denominations softened or modernized their stance on accept-Christ-or-burn-in Hell?
Most "mainline liberal Protestant" Christian denominations have absolutely nothing to say, as organizations, about the idea that you have to accept Christ or burn in hell. Whether it's in the Bible is down to your interpretation of the Bible, and people have different ideas about that. In most of the mainstream Protestant denominations, there are people who believe in hell and people who don't believe in hell both at the layperson level and among the clergy. For example, the Presbyterian Church of the USA:
Just by the numbers, 63% of Catholics and 60% of mainline Protestants believe in hell, so that's a majority but not an overwhelming majority (although for conservative Evangelicals it is quite a bit higher).
Admittedly, the kind of people who regularly say "God bless you" are the kind of people who are more likely to believe that there is a hell and only Christians are going there.
But belief in hell is more person-by-person than denomination-by-denomination.
posted by Jeanne at 11:32 AM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
Most "mainline liberal Protestant" Christian denominations have absolutely nothing to say, as organizations, about the idea that you have to accept Christ or burn in hell. Whether it's in the Bible is down to your interpretation of the Bible, and people have different ideas about that. In most of the mainstream Protestant denominations, there are people who believe in hell and people who don't believe in hell both at the layperson level and among the clergy. For example, the Presbyterian Church of the USA:
The only official Presbyterian statement that includes any comment on hell since the 1930s is a 1974 paper on universalism adopted by the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in the United States. It warns of judgment and promises hope, acknowledging that these two ideas seem to be “in tension or even in paradox.” In the end, the statement concedes, how God works redemption and judgment is a mystery.The Episcopal Church website has basically nothing to say about hell. The ELCA Lutheran church website has basically nothing to say about hell but does say that "It is furthermore essential that Christians and Jews endeavor to establish relationships of trust, integrity and a shared vision of their place in the rich interreligious landscape" and they repudiate Martin Luther's anti-semitism.
Just by the numbers, 63% of Catholics and 60% of mainline Protestants believe in hell, so that's a majority but not an overwhelming majority (although for conservative Evangelicals it is quite a bit higher).
Admittedly, the kind of people who regularly say "God bless you" are the kind of people who are more likely to believe that there is a hell and only Christians are going there.
But belief in hell is more person-by-person than denomination-by-denomination.
posted by Jeanne at 11:32 AM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
There are some good answers already in this thread. This article also spells out the Catholic position nicely.
The notion that anyone knows, for certain, that another person is damned seems baffling to me (as a Catholic). We ought to be focused on our own sins - motes and beams, no one knows the heart of another but God, and so forth It's definitely more of a thing in Protestant denominations with a strong Calvinist tradition.
It's not for me to say how you ought to take it. I suspect that a lot of the time it's just a reflexive sort of thing, or a bit of very passive evangelization. Their thinking might be something along the lines of "who knows - someone may ask about Jesus and we can have a conversation about it!"
I've been approached by Chabad Jewish men in NYC before, asking me if I'm Jewish. I can appreciate the effort.
"No, but I am a fan."
posted by jquinby at 11:37 AM on October 21, 2021
The notion that anyone knows, for certain, that another person is damned seems baffling to me (as a Catholic). We ought to be focused on our own sins - motes and beams, no one knows the heart of another but God, and so forth It's definitely more of a thing in Protestant denominations with a strong Calvinist tradition.
It's not for me to say how you ought to take it. I suspect that a lot of the time it's just a reflexive sort of thing, or a bit of very passive evangelization. Their thinking might be something along the lines of "who knows - someone may ask about Jesus and we can have a conversation about it!"
I've been approached by Chabad Jewish men in NYC before, asking me if I'm Jewish. I can appreciate the effort.
"No, but I am a fan."
posted by jquinby at 11:37 AM on October 21, 2021
I'll leave 1 to someone like Eyebrows McGee, but for 2, it's easy. Jesus *does* love you. The fact that you're Jewish, or possibly going to Hell, doesn't matter. Jesus loves everyone. I heard a priest once say "you don't have to earn Jesus's love, you just have to accept it". You might not be accepting it, but He's still giving it. Another priest I know had a bumper sticker in his office that said "God Bless the Whole World. Yes, Everybody." Jesus doesn't want bad things to happen to people who don't believe in Him. If you don't believe, bad things might be coming your way in the afterlife, but until that point, there's always the possibility that you'll accept Him. It might be a Lloyd Christmas "so you're saying there's a chance" possibility, but still...
What they're thinking is that Jesus commanded His followers to "love thy neighbor", and so they're wishing you well.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:46 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
What they're thinking is that Jesus commanded His followers to "love thy neighbor", and so they're wishing you well.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:46 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
I believe that an actual Christian (re not relying on a system of belief as a means of fear mongering and control) would say that they believe Jesus loves everyone unconditionally even those of different faiths. Therefore this is meant as a kindness.
That phrase may be part of their automatic signature therefore said to everyone all the time, and not unique to you. In which case they probably come from the "Jesus as love" crew not the "turn or burn" crew.
And at the end of the day it seems likely that a lot of people misunderstand or misrepresent the notion of sin and hell based on the original meaning of the words and mistakenly believe that Jesus spoke of a literal heaven and hell which we know from historical studies, he did not. So I would see it as a sign of ignorance in those who believe these ideas anyway. "Forgive them for they know not what they do" and all of that.
Jesus' own words (as best as we can attribute anything anyone ever said to a historical or mythical Jesus) suggested that loving others and helping them was more important than dogmatic accepting of doctrine. (We find a lot more about that stuff in the gnostic gospels but I digress.)
I actually left the church as a teenager because the youth minister didn't have a satisfying explanation for why our church focused so much on the paragraph to "get saved" and less on the "doing good works." The Baptist denomination is like you describe, and perhaps to some extent the Presbyterian one is also. Methodists afaik have never been dogmatic and always been more about service to others than the dogma.
posted by crunchy potato at 11:46 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
That phrase may be part of their automatic signature therefore said to everyone all the time, and not unique to you. In which case they probably come from the "Jesus as love" crew not the "turn or burn" crew.
And at the end of the day it seems likely that a lot of people misunderstand or misrepresent the notion of sin and hell based on the original meaning of the words and mistakenly believe that Jesus spoke of a literal heaven and hell which we know from historical studies, he did not. So I would see it as a sign of ignorance in those who believe these ideas anyway. "Forgive them for they know not what they do" and all of that.
Jesus' own words (as best as we can attribute anything anyone ever said to a historical or mythical Jesus) suggested that loving others and helping them was more important than dogmatic accepting of doctrine. (We find a lot more about that stuff in the gnostic gospels but I digress.)
I actually left the church as a teenager because the youth minister didn't have a satisfying explanation for why our church focused so much on the paragraph to "get saved" and less on the "doing good works." The Baptist denomination is like you describe, and perhaps to some extent the Presbyterian one is also. Methodists afaik have never been dogmatic and always been more about service to others than the dogma.
posted by crunchy potato at 11:46 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oooh, quick correction. The "you don't have to earn it" guy was a deacon, not a priest.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:52 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by kevinbelt at 11:52 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
I am always offended by this, but I never push back because . . .why? It's just not worth it, and I wouldn't want to offend them, just explain to them that I want to keep religion and faith out of business transactions. I believe most of these people would be bewildered at rejection of their avowal of Jesus's love.
I also wonder, nearly every time I hear this phrase, what such a person would routinely say to someone who they know is of another, non-Christian faith. Would they say this to a known Hindu or Muslim? I bet it's reflexive and they probably would.
I also hate the tagline "Have a blessed day" like fingernails on a chalkboard. Sigh. . . again, I say nothing.
posted by citygirl at 12:29 PM on October 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
I also wonder, nearly every time I hear this phrase, what such a person would routinely say to someone who they know is of another, non-Christian faith. Would they say this to a known Hindu or Muslim? I bet it's reflexive and they probably would.
I also hate the tagline "Have a blessed day" like fingernails on a chalkboard. Sigh. . . again, I say nothing.
posted by citygirl at 12:29 PM on October 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
In my experience, people that tend to do stuff like that are on the conservative, evangelical side of the fence and do it either consciously or subconsciously to support the concept that everyone else thinks (or should think) just like them. The sorts of people that when you move to a small town ask what church you go to, because in their minds people they meet aren't not Christian.
Or as noted above, as a minor grift to try to capture that market.
posted by Candleman at 12:33 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Or as noted above, as a minor grift to try to capture that market.
posted by Candleman at 12:33 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
If your profile location is correct, I suspect that this is just a cultural thing and mostly unexamined by these folks. I grew up near there and despite the sizable Jewish population and plethora of diverse religions most Christians of various flavors somehow managed to simply not perceive us, and thus quietly offend us on the regular.
My best friend in elementary school did go through a phase where she was truly worried I would go to hell, which I thought was hilarious. I told her she was welcome to pray for me but to do it when I wasn’t around, please. By the time my bat mitzvah rolled around she had gotten over it, and was pretty impressed by the whole event - that it was about my life as I was living it and not my eternal soul afterward was of large note to her. She thought it was cool and hadn’t thought about it in that framework before. All this is to say, much of the incidental Christian things these folks do are probably seen by them as utterly neutral and boring, because they’ve never had to think about it in any other way. They’re being what they think is polite.
Most of the time when I get a God Bless, I just say thanks, you too, since even though I am dubious on the existence of God I’m happy to engage in social pleasantries. I think of it kind of like wearing a head covering in religious places that request it. I’m not trying to pretend I’m part of their group but I’m also not out to offend. That said, if I get a Jesus Loves You, or a merry Christmas or a happy Easter, I 100% say something in reply that makes it clear I’m not in their group. I’ll say “Don’t care much for Jesus, myself. Have a great day!”, “happy Chanukah!” And “oh, I celebrate Passover, it’s my favorite holiday!” It has sometimes gotten me some bad reactions but it’s worth it for me. Your mileage I’m sure will vary.
posted by Mizu at 12:57 PM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
My best friend in elementary school did go through a phase where she was truly worried I would go to hell, which I thought was hilarious. I told her she was welcome to pray for me but to do it when I wasn’t around, please. By the time my bat mitzvah rolled around she had gotten over it, and was pretty impressed by the whole event - that it was about my life as I was living it and not my eternal soul afterward was of large note to her. She thought it was cool and hadn’t thought about it in that framework before. All this is to say, much of the incidental Christian things these folks do are probably seen by them as utterly neutral and boring, because they’ve never had to think about it in any other way. They’re being what they think is polite.
Most of the time when I get a God Bless, I just say thanks, you too, since even though I am dubious on the existence of God I’m happy to engage in social pleasantries. I think of it kind of like wearing a head covering in religious places that request it. I’m not trying to pretend I’m part of their group but I’m also not out to offend. That said, if I get a Jesus Loves You, or a merry Christmas or a happy Easter, I 100% say something in reply that makes it clear I’m not in their group. I’ll say “Don’t care much for Jesus, myself. Have a great day!”, “happy Chanukah!” And “oh, I celebrate Passover, it’s my favorite holiday!” It has sometimes gotten me some bad reactions but it’s worth it for me. Your mileage I’m sure will vary.
posted by Mizu at 12:57 PM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
1) There are many Christians who would not think you're going to hell, either because that's an official position of their denomination or because they just don't believe in that specific doctrine.
2) We can't know their motives, as there are many possibilities. They may think it's a nice thing to say or just assume you're Christian or are hoping they're planting a seed leading to your eventual conversion or signaling to someone they assume is Christian that this is a Christian business. Personally, I would not read any negative intention into it, though negative feelings on your part are completely justified.
If you ask them how they reconcile this with thinking you're going to hell, it's very possible they would say they don't think you're going to hell. If you really want to get an idea of their intentions without seeming confrontational, you could try saying, "Actually, I'm Jewish" and see how they respond. But I wouldn't assume that any answer on this thread is giving you a correct interpretation - we can't do anything but guess. It does seem strange to me that you're getting this a lot, though it's probably more common in some parts of the country. A few years ago, a receptionist said "praise Jesus" when I told her I was in remission. I thought it was rather sweet, actually.
posted by FencingGal at 1:02 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
2) We can't know their motives, as there are many possibilities. They may think it's a nice thing to say or just assume you're Christian or are hoping they're planting a seed leading to your eventual conversion or signaling to someone they assume is Christian that this is a Christian business. Personally, I would not read any negative intention into it, though negative feelings on your part are completely justified.
If you ask them how they reconcile this with thinking you're going to hell, it's very possible they would say they don't think you're going to hell. If you really want to get an idea of their intentions without seeming confrontational, you could try saying, "Actually, I'm Jewish" and see how they respond. But I wouldn't assume that any answer on this thread is giving you a correct interpretation - we can't do anything but guess. It does seem strange to me that you're getting this a lot, though it's probably more common in some parts of the country. A few years ago, a receptionist said "praise Jesus" when I told her I was in remission. I thought it was rather sweet, actually.
posted by FencingGal at 1:02 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I am a committed Christian, who, for the moment at least, is also an Evangelical. But my politics are left-leaning, and I also do not tell people to "have a blessed day." All of that to say, I am affiliated with the demographic that you are encountering in real life, but I certainly cannot speak for them.
My own views on hell---which I think are fairly common among Evangelicals---are that it exists and that it is simply a place apart from God. In my theology, God has given us free will and respects our choices. Therefore, while he loves us and pursues us for a time period, eventually he allows those who do not want a relationship with him to be separated from him. In other words, despite his love for us, he will respect our "no" and when someone tells him, "thanks, but not interested," he allows them a room of their own.
Hell is not for the wicked or bad, but, rather, it is for those who want it and choose it. There is an old joke that there are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, "Thy will be done." And those to whom God says, "Thy will be done." The later are those who are choosing hell --- choosing eternity apart from God.
This is obviously a very superficial treatment of a complicated doctrine, but I hope that it gives a little glimpse of where some of the people you are meeting might be coming from.
posted by ASlackerPestersMums at 3:15 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
My own views on hell---which I think are fairly common among Evangelicals---are that it exists and that it is simply a place apart from God. In my theology, God has given us free will and respects our choices. Therefore, while he loves us and pursues us for a time period, eventually he allows those who do not want a relationship with him to be separated from him. In other words, despite his love for us, he will respect our "no" and when someone tells him, "thanks, but not interested," he allows them a room of their own.
Hell is not for the wicked or bad, but, rather, it is for those who want it and choose it. There is an old joke that there are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, "Thy will be done." And those to whom God says, "Thy will be done." The later are those who are choosing hell --- choosing eternity apart from God.
This is obviously a very superficial treatment of a complicated doctrine, but I hope that it gives a little glimpse of where some of the people you are meeting might be coming from.
posted by ASlackerPestersMums at 3:15 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
There's an epic tale of my heretical manipulative bastard therapist ordained Presbyterian minister uncle who told me he didn't believe in heaven or hell or god or the devil and that I would never make a good christian and should instead go look at eastern religions where I might find something more suitable to my way of thinking. This epic tale leads directly up to the night in a smoke filled room where that doe-eyed girl looked up at me sitting on the windowsill and said "you're such a zengargoyle".
I guess that's just another data point in that some christians are meh, whatever. The church and the beliefs and such are like therapy and comfort and there for the people that they actually work for. If it's not your thing, find something else.
posted by zengargoyle at 3:16 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
I guess that's just another data point in that some christians are meh, whatever. The church and the beliefs and such are like therapy and comfort and there for the people that they actually work for. If it's not your thing, find something else.
posted by zengargoyle at 3:16 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Best answer: "1) Have any Christian denominations softened or modernized their stance on accept-Christ-or-burn-in Hell?"
Hoooooo boy, so, so, so many, especially after the Holocaust. Most major Christian denominations have statements relating to other faiths after the Holocaust. Catholics specifically addressed the issue at the Second Vatican Council, issuing a 1965 document called Nostra Aetate ("In our time"), the Declaration on the Relation of the Church with Non-Christian Religions. As a document promulgated by an ecumenical council, it's second in authority to the Bible, basically. This is big, honkin' official doctrine that it is heresy to dissent from.
Here's the English version, and it is quite, quite short by conciliar document standards.
High points:
In a more general way, Catholics have purgatory, which is where everyone who's not a saint goes after they die to, you know, wait out their remaining sins. There's a lot of theological discussion of purgatory that gets very airy because who knows anything about it? But Catholics in general are pretty comfortable with the idea that just about EVERYONE goes to purgatory, and what happens in purgatory is that you no longer see "through a glass darkly" as Paul put it, but you see The Truth in all its glory, and if Catholics are theologically right, then presumably everyone who dies and goes to purgatory will be like "ooooohhhhhhhh, I get the whole thing about Jesus now" and then everybody atones for all their sins for a while in purgatory and, when purged, goes to heaven. So not just deathbed conversations, but post-death-bed conversions. :) If you ask Catholic clergy and devout laypeople if they believe in hell, most will say yes. If you ask them if they think there's anyone actually in hell, a shocking percentage of them will say "no." They think God's salvation has to be universal or its kinda bullshit, and purgatory solves the problem of bad people going straight to heaven.
Here's American Lutherans on Jews (not only is anti-Semitism bad, but we specifically repudiate Luther's words on the Jews). Lutherans on interreligious dialogue more generally.
United Methodists on interreligious dialogue.
Presbyterian Church USA on interreligious dialogue.
Anglican Inter Faith Commission
Since Nostra Aetate came first, and since most Christian denominations sent observers to Vatican II (and it absolutely rocked Christian theology worldwide, that all these other religious leaders -- and indeed, the whole world by TV and radio! -- could watch the bishops at work and composing their documents), a lot of other Christian statements share a lot in common with the framework Nostra Aetate laid out.
A lot of right-wing evangelical-type denominations would still officially reject salvation for not-them -- the Southern Baptist Convention did an ecumenical dialogue process with the Catholic Church a few years ago and the official statements are hilarious, because the Catholic Church is like, "We find much that is true and holy in our brothers and sisters in the SBC" and the SBC is like "THOSE PAPISTS ARE STILL NOT SAVED EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE MAYBE NOT LITERAL DEMONS." But a lot of people who are members of those churches aren't members because of deep theological commitments, but because their parents and grandparents were members, and most of those folks are pretty shruggo about other Christians being saved ("sure, probably!") and not real worked up about non-Christians in general ("God probably has a plan, I don't know.") Now, some of them are very, very, very deep into the theology and definitely think we're all going to hell.
If they're otherwise decent people who aren't constantly trying to convert you or ascertain the state of your soul, "God bless you" and/or "Jesus loves you" are just reflexive social things they say to people they like. If you pressed them on it, they'd probably say "I do want God to bless you!" and "I do think Jesus loves you, even if you don't love Jesus!" (I would not press them on it, personally; it has the potential to be highly annoying.) It's thoughtless and a little weird, but they probably really do mean it. And I'd guess about one third to one half of them, if you said, "I'm Jewish" would say, "Oh gosh, I'm sorry! I won't talk about Jesus any more, but is it okay if I still pray for you?" Like, for a large number of people, this is just the 100% absolutely normal way that almost everyone in their life interacts, and if you tell them you're outside that norm, they're very apologetic and don't want to upset you or convert you.
But, you know, some of them DO want to convert you and will NEVER LET IT DROP once it's been brought up, so, again, you take your chances. I've had pretty good luck with pushy evangelicals saying, "My faith journey is between me and God right now and I'm not really ready to talk about it, but thank you for letting me know that if I ever have questions, I can talk to you." Sometimes that legit makes them stop, since what they're after is a) an acknowledgement that you think faith/religion/spirituality is important and you think about it; and b) an acknowledgement that they offered and you heard the offer.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:47 PM on October 21, 2021 [31 favorites]
Hoooooo boy, so, so, so many, especially after the Holocaust. Most major Christian denominations have statements relating to other faiths after the Holocaust. Catholics specifically addressed the issue at the Second Vatican Council, issuing a 1965 document called Nostra Aetate ("In our time"), the Declaration on the Relation of the Church with Non-Christian Religions. As a document promulgated by an ecumenical council, it's second in authority to the Bible, basically. This is big, honkin' official doctrine that it is heresy to dissent from.
Here's the English version, and it is quite, quite short by conciliar document standards.
High points:
Intro: "In our time, when day by day mankind is being drawn closer together, and the ties between different peoples are becoming stronger, the Church examines more closely her relationship to non-Christian religions. In her task of promoting unity and love among men, indeed among nations, she considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship."Which is to say, God chose the Jews, and never UNCHOSE them; God just added Gentiles on later. And Catholics generally are obligated to recognize things that are good and true in other religions, and that any truth -- in religion or outside it -- is a reflection of THE Truth.
Religions other than Muslims and Jews: "Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. [...] Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation [...]. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.
Muslims: "The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth [...] Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."
Jews: "Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. [...] The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles. Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself."
"As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation, nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading. Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle. In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder""
In a more general way, Catholics have purgatory, which is where everyone who's not a saint goes after they die to, you know, wait out their remaining sins. There's a lot of theological discussion of purgatory that gets very airy because who knows anything about it? But Catholics in general are pretty comfortable with the idea that just about EVERYONE goes to purgatory, and what happens in purgatory is that you no longer see "through a glass darkly" as Paul put it, but you see The Truth in all its glory, and if Catholics are theologically right, then presumably everyone who dies and goes to purgatory will be like "ooooohhhhhhhh, I get the whole thing about Jesus now" and then everybody atones for all their sins for a while in purgatory and, when purged, goes to heaven. So not just deathbed conversations, but post-death-bed conversions. :) If you ask Catholic clergy and devout laypeople if they believe in hell, most will say yes. If you ask them if they think there's anyone actually in hell, a shocking percentage of them will say "no." They think God's salvation has to be universal or its kinda bullshit, and purgatory solves the problem of bad people going straight to heaven.
Here's American Lutherans on Jews (not only is anti-Semitism bad, but we specifically repudiate Luther's words on the Jews). Lutherans on interreligious dialogue more generally.
United Methodists on interreligious dialogue.
Presbyterian Church USA on interreligious dialogue.
Anglican Inter Faith Commission
Since Nostra Aetate came first, and since most Christian denominations sent observers to Vatican II (and it absolutely rocked Christian theology worldwide, that all these other religious leaders -- and indeed, the whole world by TV and radio! -- could watch the bishops at work and composing their documents), a lot of other Christian statements share a lot in common with the framework Nostra Aetate laid out.
A lot of right-wing evangelical-type denominations would still officially reject salvation for not-them -- the Southern Baptist Convention did an ecumenical dialogue process with the Catholic Church a few years ago and the official statements are hilarious, because the Catholic Church is like, "We find much that is true and holy in our brothers and sisters in the SBC" and the SBC is like "THOSE PAPISTS ARE STILL NOT SAVED EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE MAYBE NOT LITERAL DEMONS." But a lot of people who are members of those churches aren't members because of deep theological commitments, but because their parents and grandparents were members, and most of those folks are pretty shruggo about other Christians being saved ("sure, probably!") and not real worked up about non-Christians in general ("God probably has a plan, I don't know.") Now, some of them are very, very, very deep into the theology and definitely think we're all going to hell.
If they're otherwise decent people who aren't constantly trying to convert you or ascertain the state of your soul, "God bless you" and/or "Jesus loves you" are just reflexive social things they say to people they like. If you pressed them on it, they'd probably say "I do want God to bless you!" and "I do think Jesus loves you, even if you don't love Jesus!" (I would not press them on it, personally; it has the potential to be highly annoying.) It's thoughtless and a little weird, but they probably really do mean it. And I'd guess about one third to one half of them, if you said, "I'm Jewish" would say, "Oh gosh, I'm sorry! I won't talk about Jesus any more, but is it okay if I still pray for you?" Like, for a large number of people, this is just the 100% absolutely normal way that almost everyone in their life interacts, and if you tell them you're outside that norm, they're very apologetic and don't want to upset you or convert you.
But, you know, some of them DO want to convert you and will NEVER LET IT DROP once it's been brought up, so, again, you take your chances. I've had pretty good luck with pushy evangelicals saying, "My faith journey is between me and God right now and I'm not really ready to talk about it, but thank you for letting me know that if I ever have questions, I can talk to you." Sometimes that legit makes them stop, since what they're after is a) an acknowledgement that you think faith/religion/spirituality is important and you think about it; and b) an acknowledgement that they offered and you heard the offer.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:47 PM on October 21, 2021 [31 favorites]
I didn't talk about Eastern Orthodoxy, or non-Chalcedonian Churches, because Eastern Orthodoxy's theology has been grappling with other issues much more intensely throughout the 20th century (communism and purges, for example) and a huge, huge number of their seminaries and theological institutions were shuttered, sometimes violently, which has led to a dearth of trained theologians. Non-Chalcedonian Churches tend to be oppressed minorities in the Middle East, and otherwise live in smaller diasporic communities. Doing lots of specialized theology, especially about issues that are not immediate questions of survival, is a privilege of people who have safety and time and food.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:01 PM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:01 PM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
as a Jew who is intensely conscious of modern forms of anti-semitism, I defer to Eyebrows on the dogma aspect, but I will also add that this sort of thing bothers me not even a little bit. It's meant as a general politeness, it's the same as "have a nice day", and I only wish I got more of it, rather than the overt hate I get as an Israeli from (usually American, atheist, deeply misinformed) progressives.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:12 PM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:12 PM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm more just curious about what they're thinking
In general, unknowable without a frank and honest direct personal exchange of views. To the extent that they pay it any attention at all, most religious people pick and choose the dogma they accept piecewise, both on the level of the dogma itself and on that of who they think it applies to.
and what I should think in turn
I recommend thinking that other people's religions are a matter for them, unless and until they start using them as excuses for oppressive behaviour.
posted by flabdablet at 9:08 PM on October 21, 2021
In general, unknowable without a frank and honest direct personal exchange of views. To the extent that they pay it any attention at all, most religious people pick and choose the dogma they accept piecewise, both on the level of the dogma itself and on that of who they think it applies to.
and what I should think in turn
I recommend thinking that other people's religions are a matter for them, unless and until they start using them as excuses for oppressive behaviour.
posted by flabdablet at 9:08 PM on October 21, 2021
Is there any point in my asking them how they reconcile the fact they say "God Bless You' to someone they believe is going to Hell?
Not unless you're a close friend of the person you're asking that question of and you've already ascertained that they genuinely do believe that the person they're wishing God's blessing upon is going to Hell.
posted by flabdablet at 9:12 PM on October 21, 2021
Not unless you're a close friend of the person you're asking that question of and you've already ascertained that they genuinely do believe that the person they're wishing God's blessing upon is going to Hell.
posted by flabdablet at 9:12 PM on October 21, 2021
I just wanted to add that some folks who get very into Jesus do so as a way of coping with difficult things in their lives - a friend who is a Pentecostal missionary got involved in the church when she was drinking heavily and had just left an abusive relationship. I find it easier to be patient with proselytizers knowing this. They want to share the thing that saved them, and their church is also encouraging them to evangelize, and they could get to build a connection with a fellow Christian when they might not have a ton of ties outside their church.
posted by momus_window at 7:45 AM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by momus_window at 7:45 AM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
I can't speak for other Christians, of course, but I am a very-involved Christian and I don't know any other Christians who think Jews are going to hell.
I have been reading the Old Testament with my daughters at night, and I stress to them that the Torah and the Prophets discuss how the Israelites were God's chosen people - the only ones in the Old Testament who God actually spoke to and lived among and saved. The New Testament (which most religious Jews don't believe/follow) mentions the gentiles being grafted on to the tree of salvation, so *if* someone believes Jesus was real, they have to acknowledge that he was Jewish and he quoted from the Law in most of his teachings.
If anything, the Christians I know believe that the Jewish people are saved first, and the gentiles are an add-on.
posted by tacodave at 8:19 PM on October 22, 2021
I have been reading the Old Testament with my daughters at night, and I stress to them that the Torah and the Prophets discuss how the Israelites were God's chosen people - the only ones in the Old Testament who God actually spoke to and lived among and saved. The New Testament (which most religious Jews don't believe/follow) mentions the gentiles being grafted on to the tree of salvation, so *if* someone believes Jesus was real, they have to acknowledge that he was Jewish and he quoted from the Law in most of his teachings.
If anything, the Christians I know believe that the Jewish people are saved first, and the gentiles are an add-on.
posted by tacodave at 8:19 PM on October 22, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
When people say stuff like this to me, I smile, nod, maybe say thanks, have a good day, etc. I don't think most people who say this are really thinking anything beyond "this is a nice thing to say to people." Unless you want to get into a religious debate with them, I see nothing to gain in bringing this up with them.
As to your other question, I'm not sure about official stances of denominations, but I know a few church-goers of various denominations who have a much more abstract or open-ended notion of heaven and hell, and certainly don't go around thinking "too bad my friend/colleague coffeecat is a sinner going to hell." I know because these are people I actually have a degree of intimacy with, and we've talked about it.
posted by coffeecat at 10:04 AM on October 21, 2021 [8 favorites]