How to talk with a friend who feels left out of a spontaneous gathering?
July 9, 2023 9:20 AM Subscribe
A friend is upset she wasn’t invited when she saw I had gone to a community event, even though I didn’t plan the event and it was very last minute.
I have a friend who we can call M. We have been good friends for a while and part of several other friend circles together. This week, a different friend of mine who doesn’t know M as well was in town, and invited me to a community event she was already going to. I wasn’t sure I had the energy to go as I had been pretty busy and it was a bit of a drive for me. But, as it came time to leave I decided it would be nice to see this visiting friend because we hadn’t been able to connect on plans the days prior. When I got to the event I saw a mutual friend of M and I’s was there too—I didn’t know she was going.
The next day I get a text from M saying she saw on social media that she saw I was in her area (this isn’t exactly true, we live 40 minutes away from each other and I was about halfway to where she lives) and she was upset she didn’t get an invite. I told her sorry, that the visiting friend had invited me, that it was last minute, and I was unsure if I was going to go in the first place but eventually decided to go at the last moment.
She later responded the next day that I was making excuses, that I “should acknowledge her pain”, and that I should have said “I could see how that hurt you and I’m sorry” or “next time I will think of this and call you”.
I’m kind of taken aback because I DID apologize and had tried to explain the situation so that she would not feel like she was left out of some premeditated plan. But she didn’t accept this and called it making excuses which is now throwing me for a loop.
I again explained that of course I felt bad she felt this way and that’s why I had tried to explain how the plans came about, and offered to call her so we could just talk it out. She wasn’t available when I called and I haven’t heard from her.
I’m just so confused because I didn’t organize this event, I was invited by someone else, and I didn’t even post about it on social media myself—I was just in someone else’s post. Also, I didn’t invite anyone else—I literally just went to meet my visiting friend (again, who doesn’t know M that well), so it’s not like this was some giant group hang out without M. The fact that another mutual friend of M and I was there was just happenstance and I think maybe the visiting friend had invited her. So, it’s not like I sent out some group text and excluded M or anything like that.
I’m also kind of upset that she didn’t accept my first apology and that she accused me of making excuses, as I don’t believe I really did anything wrong. I do not believe there’s an imbalance in our friend dynamic; her and her wife do plenty of things with mutual friends without me and I really don’t mind, I understand that it’s not possible to invite everyone all the time to every gathering. I also often invite her to plenty of things, so this is so strange to me.
I want to make sure she knows that this certainly wasn’t intentional and hear her out, but I also want to let her know that I can’t be expected to always invite everyone to every single thing I do, especially last minute things. We have a large spread out friend group and these spontaneous gatherings happen occasionally and it’s just impossible to invite everyone every time. Is explaining this boundary possible or is it going to inflame the situation? I just feel the need to manage her expectations which now all of a sudden I fear I cannot live up to.
I have a friend who we can call M. We have been good friends for a while and part of several other friend circles together. This week, a different friend of mine who doesn’t know M as well was in town, and invited me to a community event she was already going to. I wasn’t sure I had the energy to go as I had been pretty busy and it was a bit of a drive for me. But, as it came time to leave I decided it would be nice to see this visiting friend because we hadn’t been able to connect on plans the days prior. When I got to the event I saw a mutual friend of M and I’s was there too—I didn’t know she was going.
The next day I get a text from M saying she saw on social media that she saw I was in her area (this isn’t exactly true, we live 40 minutes away from each other and I was about halfway to where she lives) and she was upset she didn’t get an invite. I told her sorry, that the visiting friend had invited me, that it was last minute, and I was unsure if I was going to go in the first place but eventually decided to go at the last moment.
She later responded the next day that I was making excuses, that I “should acknowledge her pain”, and that I should have said “I could see how that hurt you and I’m sorry” or “next time I will think of this and call you”.
I’m kind of taken aback because I DID apologize and had tried to explain the situation so that she would not feel like she was left out of some premeditated plan. But she didn’t accept this and called it making excuses which is now throwing me for a loop.
I again explained that of course I felt bad she felt this way and that’s why I had tried to explain how the plans came about, and offered to call her so we could just talk it out. She wasn’t available when I called and I haven’t heard from her.
I’m just so confused because I didn’t organize this event, I was invited by someone else, and I didn’t even post about it on social media myself—I was just in someone else’s post. Also, I didn’t invite anyone else—I literally just went to meet my visiting friend (again, who doesn’t know M that well), so it’s not like this was some giant group hang out without M. The fact that another mutual friend of M and I was there was just happenstance and I think maybe the visiting friend had invited her. So, it’s not like I sent out some group text and excluded M or anything like that.
I’m also kind of upset that she didn’t accept my first apology and that she accused me of making excuses, as I don’t believe I really did anything wrong. I do not believe there’s an imbalance in our friend dynamic; her and her wife do plenty of things with mutual friends without me and I really don’t mind, I understand that it’s not possible to invite everyone all the time to every gathering. I also often invite her to plenty of things, so this is so strange to me.
I want to make sure she knows that this certainly wasn’t intentional and hear her out, but I also want to let her know that I can’t be expected to always invite everyone to every single thing I do, especially last minute things. We have a large spread out friend group and these spontaneous gatherings happen occasionally and it’s just impossible to invite everyone every time. Is explaining this boundary possible or is it going to inflame the situation? I just feel the need to manage her expectations which now all of a sudden I fear I cannot live up to.
M is putting whatever she is upset about -maybe something else is happening in another part of her friend circle, maybe there was something that happened between her and her wife, who knows, could be depression, could be insecurity -anyhow, she is putting whatever other stuff she has going on to you, because you simply happen to be an easy target. Her response is completely beyond what has happened here. We are all "allowed" to hang out with other friends, do things spontaneously. You were not uncaring or mean to her.
Similar to what joycehealy said, you can't control her feelings. I would be upset with M in your shoes as well, I have had a friend similar to what M is doing here. You have done all you can' M needs to figure out her own feelings.
posted by kellyblah at 9:44 AM on July 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Similar to what joycehealy said, you can't control her feelings. I would be upset with M in your shoes as well, I have had a friend similar to what M is doing here. You have done all you can' M needs to figure out her own feelings.
posted by kellyblah at 9:44 AM on July 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think you should leave it alone right now. You have apologized and explained the situation. She is likely having other stressors in her life that are coming out sideways towards you and this situation. If you are very close friends, you might try asking her “hey this doesn’t seem like you, what’s going on in your life? Do you need some ice cream and a listening ear?” But if you aren’t mega close, I would just leave it be and make plans with her in a couple weeks or a month. Sometimes things aren’t ours to fix.
posted by Bottlecap at 9:45 AM on July 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 9:45 AM on July 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
I think joycehealy is spot on that this isn't really about you. Also, I don't think it's a realistic expectation to always be able to coordinate inviting people to everything, and I always keep that in mind when I hear about other people doing things in smaller groups. It's nice to try to include people when you can, but reacting so vehemently to draw out an extended apology is drama llama behavior to me.
I would have gone through the steps you did and would not try further. You really can only control your own actions, and this is at the point where she has some things to work through in her own emotions. To be honest, my reaction unless I later had reason to re-evaluate (such as hearing more about something M is going through that caused her reaction or she seemed okay with moving on) would be to distance myself from that connection. Life is too short to feel like you are walking on eggshells with friends.
posted by past unusual at 9:45 AM on July 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would have gone through the steps you did and would not try further. You really can only control your own actions, and this is at the point where she has some things to work through in her own emotions. To be honest, my reaction unless I later had reason to re-evaluate (such as hearing more about something M is going through that caused her reaction or she seemed okay with moving on) would be to distance myself from that connection. Life is too short to feel like you are walking on eggshells with friends.
posted by past unusual at 9:45 AM on July 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
You did nothing wrong and while her feelings are understandable, confronting you with them was absolutely inappropriate. Trying to move this conversation to irl was the right move and it's a shame she didn't take up your offer. I suggest holding firm on this. If she wants to meet up for coffee you can hear her out and offer sympathy for her feelings of being left out (it does sting, even when you intellectually know it doesn't mean anything). But don't let her steamroll you into agreeing that you did anything wrong, or that you'll handle it differently in the future. You're going to continue to spend time with other friends, including ones she knows. She has to decide if she's okay with that.
posted by umwelt at 9:51 AM on July 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by umwelt at 9:51 AM on July 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think you're actually overexplaining here with irrelevant information, and I wonder if you're doing the same with her and so giving her more to spiral about? This is really straightforward: this wasn't your gathering. A friend invited you to a thing, and you made a last minute decision to go. You obviously didn't inquire about the other invitees or ask the person to invite other people they hadn't planned to, because that would have been weird and rude. End of story. Nothing to apologize for.
It's understandable that your friend might have felt left out, but that doesn't mean anyone involved did anything wrong
I would just leave this alone. You already offered a kind if unnecessary apology. If she really wants to continue talking about this you can leave it to her to ask about rescheduling a call. Otherwise, this is a closed issue, just carry on with your usual level of contact.
I would be keeping an eye out, though, for whether this is an uncharacteristic overreaction ( it happens, sometimes we all get stressed out f freak out in ways we wouldn't otherwise) or a pattern of being controlling and unreasonable in how she expects to be included in your life. If you see a pattern then it would be time to reevaluate the friendship.
posted by Stacey at 9:53 AM on July 9, 2023 [46 favorites]
It's understandable that your friend might have felt left out, but that doesn't mean anyone involved did anything wrong
I would just leave this alone. You already offered a kind if unnecessary apology. If she really wants to continue talking about this you can leave it to her to ask about rescheduling a call. Otherwise, this is a closed issue, just carry on with your usual level of contact.
I would be keeping an eye out, though, for whether this is an uncharacteristic overreaction ( it happens, sometimes we all get stressed out f freak out in ways we wouldn't otherwise) or a pattern of being controlling and unreasonable in how she expects to be included in your life. If you see a pattern then it would be time to reevaluate the friendship.
posted by Stacey at 9:53 AM on July 9, 2023 [46 favorites]
While I was reading the question I was thinking "something else blew up in her life and so this minor situation is getting blown out of proportion", as joycehealy said.
Maybe it's because on Friday I (somewhat) blew up on my boss because I had a ton of work on my plate and he picked the wrong time to add 2 more things. He's a nice guy, it wasn't his fault. But yeah.
And on preview, what Stacey said also.
posted by forthright at 9:56 AM on July 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe it's because on Friday I (somewhat) blew up on my boss because I had a ton of work on my plate and he picked the wrong time to add 2 more things. He's a nice guy, it wasn't his fault. But yeah.
And on preview, what Stacey said also.
posted by forthright at 9:56 AM on July 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
this is ridiculous & there is no need to humor people who not only demand apologies for your independent social life but also want to script those apologies for you. now that you know she monitors your social media to see where you are at all times & demands explanations, you are free to consider whether this is acceptable to you. I would not make my presence everywhere I go a matter of public record in this way, but I suppose doing so is a useful way to find out who in your life is bananas about such things.
you can tell your friends when you feel lonely & left out. you can tell them you wish they’d call whenever they’re nearby because they’d always leap at the chance to see you even if it’s last minute. but you can’t behave like this. don’t let her confidence in her own righteousness confuse you. this is very weird!!
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:05 AM on July 9, 2023 [41 favorites]
you can tell your friends when you feel lonely & left out. you can tell them you wish they’d call whenever they’re nearby because they’d always leap at the chance to see you even if it’s last minute. but you can’t behave like this. don’t let her confidence in her own righteousness confuse you. this is very weird!!
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:05 AM on July 9, 2023 [41 favorites]
I'm with the people suggesting you need to be more firm with her, not more accommodating. You did absolutely nothing wrong. While I imagine most people can have empathy for how it can feel bad to see friends hanging out without you, her response of anger towards your reasonable explanation is selfish and inappropriate. I would never had apologized for this, and if she brings it up again, I'd be firm "I'm not sure why you think I needed to invite you to another friend's get-together, that I decided to go to last minute. I don't think you're being a good a friend by directing anger at me, when I did nothing wrong. If something hard is going on in your life that is prompting this reaction, I'm happy to offer support." Or something like that - but I wouldn't tolerate M's behavior.
posted by coffeecat at 10:07 AM on July 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 10:07 AM on July 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
You were invited by someone else. She needs to GTF over herself. Additionally, she is not entitled to your time and or another person's hospitality and this is literally ridiculous.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:11 AM on July 9, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 10:11 AM on July 9, 2023 [23 favorites]
The actual problem here is between M and one of the other two people you were hanging out with, I’d put money on it. (And frankly, if I’m right there’s a good chance it’s one-sided, but even if both of those people have seriously wronged her, her reaction was ridiculous and out of line.)
Does M have a prior history of over-the-top reactions to perceived social slights?
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:12 AM on July 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Does M have a prior history of over-the-top reactions to perceived social slights?
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:12 AM on July 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I feel like I would want to be very clear with M here that I am allowed to go places, she is not my keeper and it is unreasonable for her to expect to be informed of everything I do.
She needs to live with other people having lives that don't revolve around her. No intentional exclusion was happening, and asking you to order your life around her so that she is included in every possible thing is an unreasonable restriction on you.
If this is unusual behavior for her, something else is probably going on and you might want to approach it that way with compassion ("it's unusual for you to be so upset, is something going on?"). If it's normal behavior then I'd be more clear that being constantly informed of your social activities and whereabouts is an unacceptable demand.
posted by Lady Li at 10:27 AM on July 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
She needs to live with other people having lives that don't revolve around her. No intentional exclusion was happening, and asking you to order your life around her so that she is included in every possible thing is an unreasonable restriction on you.
If this is unusual behavior for her, something else is probably going on and you might want to approach it that way with compassion ("it's unusual for you to be so upset, is something going on?"). If it's normal behavior then I'd be more clear that being constantly informed of your social activities and whereabouts is an unacceptable demand.
posted by Lady Li at 10:27 AM on July 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
It seems like this unusual for this friend, otherwise you wouldn't be as confused. If that is the case, I wouldn't press this. They will likely realize that they were being unreasonable later and possibly apologize to you. They're going through some stuff. 3 people they knew hung out within driving distance of them, didn't tell them, and posted about it in a way they knew would be seen. If they're already feelingly lonely or isolated, then yeah, that can seem hurtful. I would apologize again, concisely, saying that you do see how they see it but that it wasn't your intent, and maybe offer to hang out with them soon.
But if this is something the friend does a lot though, yeah - draw a boundary.
posted by Garm at 10:45 AM on July 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
But if this is something the friend does a lot though, yeah - draw a boundary.
posted by Garm at 10:45 AM on July 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is it normal in your circle to expect to add additional people to invitations? Because this just seems crazy to me, and I would consider it very rude to add another person. You received an invitation, and she didn't. You didn't do anything wrong at all. I don't even understand why you apologized. M's entitlement is breathtaking.
I do understand wanting to support her if she feels left out, but that's not the same as saying you did something wrong. I would suggest being explicit with her about that. You never owed her an apology of any kind. If you get an invitation and she doesn't, that doesn't mean you have to add her or not go. If she doesn't understand that, you might need to reevaluate the friendship.
Understanding that not all invitations include you is just being a grown-up.
posted by FencingGal at 10:51 AM on July 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I do understand wanting to support her if she feels left out, but that's not the same as saying you did something wrong. I would suggest being explicit with her about that. You never owed her an apology of any kind. If you get an invitation and she doesn't, that doesn't mean you have to add her or not go. If she doesn't understand that, you might need to reevaluate the friendship.
Understanding that not all invitations include you is just being a grown-up.
posted by FencingGal at 10:51 AM on July 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is a very hard conversation to have. I had to have it last year when my wife and I were spending a night in the city to see an otherwise-very-far-away friend who was in town, and our mutual friend (who we had not discussed it with) found out as we were driving there and wanted to talk about how she felt left out.
Which... was a reasonable thing to feel, because she was left out. We left her out. Not maliciously, but because... I wanted to spend a night in the city with my wife and have dinner with our out-of-town friends. Our local mutual friend didn't come into it at all.
This resulted in a very awkward, very polite three-way conversation, with my wife translating my increasingly grumpy mutters to civil texts, in which we basically said "this is what we are doing, yeah, I understand you are having A Feeling about it and that feeling is Bad, that seems reasonable" but resolutely not a) apologizing for making plans that didn't involve her b) promising to never make plans without her again or c) accepting that making plans without her was in any way abnormal or inappropriate. If she'd wanted to hang out with Out-of-Town Friend, she could have reached out to her! She could have made her own plans, and maybe Out-of-Town friend would have suggested overlapping them, and maybe not, but none of that was our responsibility and our mutual friend's feelings of abandonment are hers to process.
In terms of actual advice, you have explained, you have apologized, and at this point, if I were you, I'd drop it. If this becomes (or is part of) a pattern, then maybe it's time to have the tough talk about boundaries (namely, just because you can see what I'm doing on social media doesn't give you any sort of entitlement to be part of it) but if this is just an out-of-character one-off then maybe the best thing to do would be to make some plans with her and see how she's doing in general, and don't bring up this episode at all.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:58 AM on July 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Which... was a reasonable thing to feel, because she was left out. We left her out. Not maliciously, but because... I wanted to spend a night in the city with my wife and have dinner with our out-of-town friends. Our local mutual friend didn't come into it at all.
This resulted in a very awkward, very polite three-way conversation, with my wife translating my increasingly grumpy mutters to civil texts, in which we basically said "this is what we are doing, yeah, I understand you are having A Feeling about it and that feeling is Bad, that seems reasonable" but resolutely not a) apologizing for making plans that didn't involve her b) promising to never make plans without her again or c) accepting that making plans without her was in any way abnormal or inappropriate. If she'd wanted to hang out with Out-of-Town Friend, she could have reached out to her! She could have made her own plans, and maybe Out-of-Town friend would have suggested overlapping them, and maybe not, but none of that was our responsibility and our mutual friend's feelings of abandonment are hers to process.
In terms of actual advice, you have explained, you have apologized, and at this point, if I were you, I'd drop it. If this becomes (or is part of) a pattern, then maybe it's time to have the tough talk about boundaries (namely, just because you can see what I'm doing on social media doesn't give you any sort of entitlement to be part of it) but if this is just an out-of-character one-off then maybe the best thing to do would be to make some plans with her and see how she's doing in general, and don't bring up this episode at all.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:58 AM on July 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
I found out on social media that I wasn't invited to a cohort member's birthday party! I was sad, for like 3 minutes. And I left it alone because I'm working on my own gatherings that I am not inviting said cohort member to, and wished them a happy birthday.
Whatever the reason is, a reminder that you also are not your friend's therapist and that while you can listen and be supportive, whatever script she is using is really strange. Without knowing your friend further, either she feels entitled, or has learned entitled scripts that don't echo the rest of her behavior. Either way, you have nothing to apologize for, and she also could probably express better that she was just sad and wished to be included. But I don't personally have enough information from this Ask to gauge what kind of person she is, but pay attention to patterns.
posted by yueliang at 11:02 AM on July 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Whatever the reason is, a reminder that you also are not your friend's therapist and that while you can listen and be supportive, whatever script she is using is really strange. Without knowing your friend further, either she feels entitled, or has learned entitled scripts that don't echo the rest of her behavior. Either way, you have nothing to apologize for, and she also could probably express better that she was just sad and wished to be included. But I don't personally have enough information from this Ask to gauge what kind of person she is, but pay attention to patterns.
posted by yueliang at 11:02 AM on July 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
3 people they knew hung out within driving distance of them, didn't tell them, and posted about it in a way they knew would be seen. If they're already feelingly lonely or isolated, then yeah, that can seem hurtful. I would apologize again, concisely,
Apologize FOR WHAT? Look, I’ve felt left out before and it really hurt. I did not then demand an apology from the person I was jealous of, for the crime of having a nice time outside of my presence. That is not a response the OP should encourage in any way, because it will quickly become “I literally can’t do anything without M or she’ll be devastated” and that will be the end of this friendship.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:04 AM on July 9, 2023 [25 favorites]
Apologize FOR WHAT? Look, I’ve felt left out before and it really hurt. I did not then demand an apology from the person I was jealous of, for the crime of having a nice time outside of my presence. That is not a response the OP should encourage in any way, because it will quickly become “I literally can’t do anything without M or she’ll be devastated” and that will be the end of this friendship.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:04 AM on July 9, 2023 [25 favorites]
M is worried that she is being excluded or marginalized in the larger group of friends.
And she may be right. Groups do that kind of thing all the time, and it’s such a natural part of group dynamics that it can be very destructive unless there are people in the group who recognize it and work to counter the tendency, which I think is important because when a person begins to be excluded for random reasons at first, people will wonder why they don’t see them around, look for justifications, and suddenly their reputation suffers.
If you actually like M and think she’s a valuable part of the group, I think you should offer her a declaration of loyalty, try to include her when you can, and attempt to oppose ingroup/outgroup dynamics whenever they raise their ugly heads.
posted by jamjam at 11:10 AM on July 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
And she may be right. Groups do that kind of thing all the time, and it’s such a natural part of group dynamics that it can be very destructive unless there are people in the group who recognize it and work to counter the tendency, which I think is important because when a person begins to be excluded for random reasons at first, people will wonder why they don’t see them around, look for justifications, and suddenly their reputation suffers.
If you actually like M and think she’s a valuable part of the group, I think you should offer her a declaration of loyalty, try to include her when you can, and attempt to oppose ingroup/outgroup dynamics whenever they raise their ugly heads.
posted by jamjam at 11:10 AM on July 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I concur with others that
1. This is likely not about you
2. I'd drop it at this point and would especially not follow M's script unless you really feel that it's appropriate
3. If this continues, I'd set some boundaries with your friend
I have a friend like your friend (friend #1 in this question) and it's tough for me sometimes. I have sort of random energy swings and a long-distance partner. When he's in town most of the time we just hang together and don't see people. But occasionally we have more energy and either have people over or see people. My friend mostly likes either hanging out at her place with her husband watching TV (which is fine, but not always what I feel like) or going to restaurants where she invariably complains about the service. But sometimes, she'll see on social media that I've been to a place and she'll be unhappy with me that I didn't mention it to her.
And part of the issue is I think she'd like to see me more than I'd like to see her. Part of the issue is that she's not really a "casual hang" friend and sometimes she's a bit of a dark rain cloud and I am less able to be around that lately. Part of the issue is she kind of knows at some level that she's hard to hang out with and she can't change that and it's frustrating for her. Part of the issue is that her partner is fairly solitary and doesn't really help with the "couples socialization" issues.
But also part of the issue is, she's made complaints like your friend did and I've apologized and acceded (in the past) and been like "Oh yeah next time I will call you" or whatever. But then if a similar thing happens and I don't call her, there's some gotcha game going on where the fact that she blew up about it once and I apologized somehow made me more responsible for her feelings in the future.
I've changed how I act around her now and I'm more likely to say some variant of "Uh I'm sorry you feel left out but if I am being honest I'd probably act the same way in the future, it's not personal and I'm sorry you feel that it is. If you'd like to talk about how you're feeling I'm here for that but I'm just telling you what the situation was."
I hope this is just an anomaly and your friend is just in her feelings for some other reason. But you're right to be a little concerned because people who are not your intimate partners (and sometimes even them) who are acting like you are responsible for their feelings probably need a slight expectation-setting adjustment.
posted by jessamyn at 11:20 AM on July 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
1. This is likely not about you
2. I'd drop it at this point and would especially not follow M's script unless you really feel that it's appropriate
3. If this continues, I'd set some boundaries with your friend
I have a friend like your friend (friend #1 in this question) and it's tough for me sometimes. I have sort of random energy swings and a long-distance partner. When he's in town most of the time we just hang together and don't see people. But occasionally we have more energy and either have people over or see people. My friend mostly likes either hanging out at her place with her husband watching TV (which is fine, but not always what I feel like) or going to restaurants where she invariably complains about the service. But sometimes, she'll see on social media that I've been to a place and she'll be unhappy with me that I didn't mention it to her.
And part of the issue is I think she'd like to see me more than I'd like to see her. Part of the issue is that she's not really a "casual hang" friend and sometimes she's a bit of a dark rain cloud and I am less able to be around that lately. Part of the issue is she kind of knows at some level that she's hard to hang out with and she can't change that and it's frustrating for her. Part of the issue is that her partner is fairly solitary and doesn't really help with the "couples socialization" issues.
But also part of the issue is, she's made complaints like your friend did and I've apologized and acceded (in the past) and been like "Oh yeah next time I will call you" or whatever. But then if a similar thing happens and I don't call her, there's some gotcha game going on where the fact that she blew up about it once and I apologized somehow made me more responsible for her feelings in the future.
I've changed how I act around her now and I'm more likely to say some variant of "Uh I'm sorry you feel left out but if I am being honest I'd probably act the same way in the future, it's not personal and I'm sorry you feel that it is. If you'd like to talk about how you're feeling I'm here for that but I'm just telling you what the situation was."
I hope this is just an anomaly and your friend is just in her feelings for some other reason. But you're right to be a little concerned because people who are not your intimate partners (and sometimes even them) who are acting like you are responsible for their feelings probably need a slight expectation-setting adjustment.
posted by jessamyn at 11:20 AM on July 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Not only is she out of line, but this:
"[she wants me to say] next time I will think of this and call you”.....yeah, no. She doesn't get to do that. Please express that to her. She's not the boss of you.
posted by tristeza at 11:30 AM on July 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
"[she wants me to say] next time I will think of this and call you”.....yeah, no. She doesn't get to do that. Please express that to her. She's not the boss of you.
posted by tristeza at 11:30 AM on July 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
Groups do that kind of thing all the time
This isn't wrong, but I really want to call out the inherent Geek Social Fallacy here (primarily 5, with some 4 and 1.) You having a friend who sort of knows your other friend does not make you a "group" in any other sense but the most literal one, and "groups" even when they are acknowledged do not need to do everything together, nor is it inappropriate for people in a group to have relationships with each other that do not include the entire group. It's also just fine to have acquaintances/casual friends that you mostly see in one social context (group activities) that you do not want to transfer over to other contexts (one-on-one, double dating, hanging out with friends from a different social circle.)
Believing too hard in these fallacies is what gets you to the point where you are getting mad at your friends for having other friends. That is a dark and lonely road.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:42 AM on July 9, 2023 [21 favorites]
This isn't wrong, but I really want to call out the inherent Geek Social Fallacy here (primarily 5, with some 4 and 1.) You having a friend who sort of knows your other friend does not make you a "group" in any other sense but the most literal one, and "groups" even when they are acknowledged do not need to do everything together, nor is it inappropriate for people in a group to have relationships with each other that do not include the entire group. It's also just fine to have acquaintances/casual friends that you mostly see in one social context (group activities) that you do not want to transfer over to other contexts (one-on-one, double dating, hanging out with friends from a different social circle.)
Believing too hard in these fallacies is what gets you to the point where you are getting mad at your friends for having other friends. That is a dark and lonely road.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:42 AM on July 9, 2023 [21 favorites]
I find this level of confrontation a bit off— just doesn’t seem match the situation. I can certainly understand feeling left out. I’ve been there and it does hurt. The hurt belongs to her though, not you.
In your place I’d express genuine regret and empathy that she felt left out, and I wouldn’t mind explaining the situation (once!) in case she had the wrong idea. But I wouldn’t apologize for not inviting her and I wouldn’t respond to her continued pushback.
It’s normal to have other friends and to attend events she’s not invited to for a variety of reasons. In this case it wasn’t even your invite to extend. But even if it were and you just didn’t feel like including her, you wouldn’t be in the wrong! I think you’re justifiably upset with her.
I wonder if this is a straw that broke the camel’s back situation? Like maybe she feels she’s “always” left out and this was her latest proof? In any event, you can’t fix this for her.
I'd leave her be for a while and then hang out with her maybe 1 on 1 when you’re up to it. See how she’s doing and what’s going on.
Unfortunately there’s a possibility she’s revealed she has some unreasonable expectations of you and is a bit demanding/controlling. But if this is out of character I’d assume she’s going through it and give her some grace.
posted by kapers at 12:09 PM on July 9, 2023
In your place I’d express genuine regret and empathy that she felt left out, and I wouldn’t mind explaining the situation (once!) in case she had the wrong idea. But I wouldn’t apologize for not inviting her and I wouldn’t respond to her continued pushback.
It’s normal to have other friends and to attend events she’s not invited to for a variety of reasons. In this case it wasn’t even your invite to extend. But even if it were and you just didn’t feel like including her, you wouldn’t be in the wrong! I think you’re justifiably upset with her.
I wonder if this is a straw that broke the camel’s back situation? Like maybe she feels she’s “always” left out and this was her latest proof? In any event, you can’t fix this for her.
I'd leave her be for a while and then hang out with her maybe 1 on 1 when you’re up to it. See how she’s doing and what’s going on.
Unfortunately there’s a possibility she’s revealed she has some unreasonable expectations of you and is a bit demanding/controlling. But if this is out of character I’d assume she’s going through it and give her some grace.
posted by kapers at 12:09 PM on July 9, 2023
or has learned entitled scripts that don't echo the rest of her behavior.
Was going to say this. If she is socially awkward to any degree and of the age where she might watch TikTok or similar, she may have picked up on some of the lunatic scripts that sometimes circulate there under the guise of psych advice without realizing that they’re, well, lunatic.
posted by praemunire at 12:10 PM on July 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Was going to say this. If she is socially awkward to any degree and of the age where she might watch TikTok or similar, she may have picked up on some of the lunatic scripts that sometimes circulate there under the guise of psych advice without realizing that they’re, well, lunatic.
posted by praemunire at 12:10 PM on July 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
responded the next day that I was making excuses, that I “should acknowledge her pain”, and that I should have said “I could see how that hurt you and I’m sorry” or “next time I will think of this and call you”.
If I had a so-called friend who behaved this way, all they'd get from me would be "I hear what you say and I'll take that on board." And I'd end up with far less motivation to make sure they were included in anything from that point onward.
Best case outcome: she gets over herself and never brings this up again.
Chance of best case outcome: slim to none, by my reckoning.
What a drama llama.
posted by flabdablet at 12:48 PM on July 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
If I had a so-called friend who behaved this way, all they'd get from me would be "I hear what you say and I'll take that on board." And I'd end up with far less motivation to make sure they were included in anything from that point onward.
Best case outcome: she gets over herself and never brings this up again.
Chance of best case outcome: slim to none, by my reckoning.
What a drama llama.
posted by flabdablet at 12:48 PM on July 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
M is worried that she is being excluded or marginalized in the larger group of friends.
Yes, but if this behaviour is typical, that outcome will be pretty much inevitable among adults.
I agree that there could be something else going on with M that made her react that way, and if so, she might be feeling embarrassed about it. Since you've already apologized, I'd leave it alone for now and see how she acts from now on. You've apologized--which is more than many people would do in such a situation--so the ball is in her court.
posted by rpfields at 12:50 PM on July 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yes, but if this behaviour is typical, that outcome will be pretty much inevitable among adults.
I agree that there could be something else going on with M that made her react that way, and if so, she might be feeling embarrassed about it. Since you've already apologized, I'd leave it alone for now and see how she acts from now on. You've apologized--which is more than many people would do in such a situation--so the ball is in her court.
posted by rpfields at 12:50 PM on July 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
M is way out of line. You have zero obligation to her in this scenario.
Now, if you really appreciate M and want to go way above and beyond for her, you could invite her out to lunch or to some other calm one on one hangout, and make space for her to talk to you. Hopefully she will apologize, or confide in you about what was really underlying her bizarre choice to lash out at you. If she doesn’t do those things, the way she behaves during your hangout can tell you how she wants to proceed - maybe it was a one time blip and if everyone is extremely gracious you can forget about it and start fresh.
If I were in your shoes, and I really valued M in my life, I would do my best to minimize the drama and focus on the things I enjoy about our friendship, reminding her of them too by proactively asking her to do them together or chatting about our shared interests in a casual way. I am prone to overexplaining and rumination, so I try to consciously push myself in the other direction for balance.
posted by Mizu at 1:03 PM on July 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Now, if you really appreciate M and want to go way above and beyond for her, you could invite her out to lunch or to some other calm one on one hangout, and make space for her to talk to you. Hopefully she will apologize, or confide in you about what was really underlying her bizarre choice to lash out at you. If she doesn’t do those things, the way she behaves during your hangout can tell you how she wants to proceed - maybe it was a one time blip and if everyone is extremely gracious you can forget about it and start fresh.
If I were in your shoes, and I really valued M in my life, I would do my best to minimize the drama and focus on the things I enjoy about our friendship, reminding her of them too by proactively asking her to do them together or chatting about our shared interests in a casual way. I am prone to overexplaining and rumination, so I try to consciously push myself in the other direction for balance.
posted by Mizu at 1:03 PM on July 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
One way to calm this down would be
1. don't bring it up again unless she does
2. if she does bring it up, don't talk about the facts but rather address her feelings. "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt. Even though it is reasonable that sometimes I may do things with other people, I get why it bothered you and I care about our friendship. I want to make sure you and I get a chance to do fun things too. Let's make a plan now for our next get together."
However, if she continues to try to control your relationships with other people, you will need to set a clearer boundary but for now, see if this will just blow over either by itself or with just a little reassurance.
posted by metahawk at 1:06 PM on July 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
1. don't bring it up again unless she does
2. if she does bring it up, don't talk about the facts but rather address her feelings. "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt. Even though it is reasonable that sometimes I may do things with other people, I get why it bothered you and I care about our friendship. I want to make sure you and I get a chance to do fun things too. Let's make a plan now for our next get together."
However, if she continues to try to control your relationships with other people, you will need to set a clearer boundary but for now, see if this will just blow over either by itself or with just a little reassurance.
posted by metahawk at 1:06 PM on July 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
You do not owe her another apology. This is not your fault. But I don't think she was out of bounds, just awkward about explaining her feelings.
Inevitably, there has been or will be an Ask from a person like this, who will wonder why three of her friends got together at a public event that was only 20 minutes away -- much more in her area than 40 minutes away -- without telling her. And somebody will say, "well did you TELL your friends you were hurt? Because if you don't let them know you were hurt, they'll never know that you would have gone and they won't remember to ask you in the future. They aren't mind readers, maybe they also thought you'd believe 20 minutes away was too far. Ask/Guess! If you feel invisible, it's on you to rectify it so let the friend you're closest to know you'd love to be included in the future. Here's a script!"
What's never offered is, "and here's what you say if you're told it was spontaneous even though Friend 2 made the plan and Friend 1 decided to accept the offer last minute and Friend 1 didn't know that Friend 3 would be there because that was spontaneous too but then again maybe not because Friend 2 might have invited Friend 3 as well." That's where her awkwardness came in. Snappy scripts only go so far.
What looks like last minute, spontaneous gathering to you is someone else's planned group event. So I feel for her in that damned if you do/damned if you don't way. But again, it's not your fault and not on you to apologize.
posted by kimberussell at 1:13 PM on July 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Inevitably, there has been or will be an Ask from a person like this, who will wonder why three of her friends got together at a public event that was only 20 minutes away -- much more in her area than 40 minutes away -- without telling her. And somebody will say, "well did you TELL your friends you were hurt? Because if you don't let them know you were hurt, they'll never know that you would have gone and they won't remember to ask you in the future. They aren't mind readers, maybe they also thought you'd believe 20 minutes away was too far. Ask/Guess! If you feel invisible, it's on you to rectify it so let the friend you're closest to know you'd love to be included in the future. Here's a script!"
What's never offered is, "and here's what you say if you're told it was spontaneous even though Friend 2 made the plan and Friend 1 decided to accept the offer last minute and Friend 1 didn't know that Friend 3 would be there because that was spontaneous too but then again maybe not because Friend 2 might have invited Friend 3 as well." That's where her awkwardness came in. Snappy scripts only go so far.
What looks like last minute, spontaneous gathering to you is someone else's planned group event. So I feel for her in that damned if you do/damned if you don't way. But again, it's not your fault and not on you to apologize.
posted by kimberussell at 1:13 PM on July 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Please allow me to summarize:
I don’t believe I really did anything wrong.
You didn't.
posted by kate4914 at 1:53 PM on July 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don’t believe I really did anything wrong.
You didn't.
posted by kate4914 at 1:53 PM on July 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
If one of my friends displayed this kind of controlling behaviour (which included trying to control the words you used to apologise), I would do the slow fade.
posted by thereader at 3:19 PM on July 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by thereader at 3:19 PM on July 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
I have a friend or two like this. There is a good chance that (1) this raises deep feelings of a abandonment and/or anxiety that do not belong to you, and (2) M is going at you this hard because she sees you as a safe person to harangue without being rejected. If so, it's a bit of a dynamic where you've become a scapegoat for past wrongs that have nothing to do with you, and are being proxied by this non-event.
posted by kensington314 at 3:29 PM on July 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 3:29 PM on July 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Demanding that another person "acknowledge [your] pain" is like demanding an apology. You're free to do it, but the fact that you had to demand it in the first place means it's never going to feel sincere or satisfying.
posted by easy, lucky, free at 4:16 PM on July 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by easy, lucky, free at 4:16 PM on July 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Friend is...not coming from a sane place right now, and probably can't mentally acknowledge that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:32 PM on July 9, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:32 PM on July 9, 2023
Most of us do not have or follow clear rules about social media usage, in particular:
* whether I allow others to publicly mention that they socialized with me, or are socializing with me right now
* if I notice something about someone's actions third-hand via social media, do I assume that it is true and a full accounting, or do I ask them for clarifying info first?
You are both, right now, coping with the outcomes of a situation that has emerged from this lack of guidelines and lack of agreement about what those rules are, in addition to other stuff mentioned by others above. You cannot control others' reactions, but in the future, you can request more privacy regarding showing up in others' social media posts about you.
posted by brainwane at 10:00 AM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
* whether I allow others to publicly mention that they socialized with me, or are socializing with me right now
* if I notice something about someone's actions third-hand via social media, do I assume that it is true and a full accounting, or do I ask them for clarifying info first?
You are both, right now, coping with the outcomes of a situation that has emerged from this lack of guidelines and lack of agreement about what those rules are, in addition to other stuff mentioned by others above. You cannot control others' reactions, but in the future, you can request more privacy regarding showing up in others' social media posts about you.
posted by brainwane at 10:00 AM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
You re not wrong. But, your friend is feeling bad. Invite them for coffee or whatever, spend some time listening, because something's wrong, and you care abut them.
posted by theora55 at 11:36 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 11:36 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
« Older What are some resources for getting QB6 updated to... | Roasting coffee beans at home Newer »
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
...
I just feel the need to manage her expectations which now all of a sudden I fear I cannot live up to.
This isn't about you. She's upset about something else - mutual friend, mutual other friend, she didn't know the event was going on, someone in her family is sick, she didn't sleep well, who knows. As you said, different parts of different friends groups hang out at different times, it wasn't a holiday or birthday, there's no reason for her to be this upset.
It sucks and you deserve to be upset, but you can't control how she feels. You've tried to make amends and she's refused, so either she'll get it together or she won't, but you have done what you can.
posted by joycehealy at 9:31 AM on July 9, 2023 [21 favorites]