Rollercoaster friendship
December 15, 2022 4:06 PM Subscribe
So I have this friend. We've been good but somewhat rollercoastery friends for a long time. I don't understand why he's so inconsistent. He goes back and forth between incredibly affectionate and generous vs. cold and distant on a regular basis. It's like he's two different people. I've asked him about it, and the reasons he gives don't make any sense to me.
This friend will fly across the country multiple times a year to see me. When I asked him to record a few songs during my band's performance, he went out of his way to record every single song in both sets. This year we were both at Burning Man (but not camping together), and he gave me his own shade structure to use and offered to pick me up at Reno (a 6-hour round trip that fortunately didn't happen as I got a different ride). All of these were freely and joyfully given. He is obviously delighted to see me in person. If there's any kind of travel or logistics involved, he will do 10x what is necessary, and this has been true for years.
And yet. If he knows I'm struggling, he will just avoid those topics. Last year he knew that I was having a stressful time with a health scare, then buying a car, then moving across the country. I would tell him about these things, and he would listen but mostly give one-line responses. The next time we talked he would never ask "Hey, how is the move going?" or "Have you found a car yet?" His attitude seems to be "That's your problem, what do you expect me to do about it?" I told him in words, "Hey, I'm feeling really stressed and it would feel really good to get some check-ins" and he responded, "Sorry, that's just not something I do." When pressed, he said, "It's important for me to feel safe saying no" and "I don't think we owe each other anything." I've encouraged him to find a way to show up for me that would feel good to him, even if it's not a check-in, and he said that makes sense but he can't think of anything.
This kind of blanket refusal also happens a lot for activities I try to initiate. We both like hiking, for instance, but if I propose that we take a hiking trip, he will say "Nah, I'm not feeling it, but you're welcome to do that yourself if you like." So I get a no most of the time. If it's something I want to share with him that he doesn't already do, like let's say I just started listening to a podcast or got into baking elaborate desserts and I suggest doing those things together, the chance of a no is close to 100%. "Sorry, it's just not my thing." So we end up doing the same limited menu of things that we've done for years, things that he is already into.
Sometimes he goes from saying yes to everything to no to everything. Earlier this year, there were a few months where he said yes and made time for just about everything I proposed (conversations, plans, visits, activities). If I texted him a snippet of my life, we would go back and forth about it for a while. He would tell me all kinds of things about his life too. The energy was very positive. But then the switch flipped, and suddenly for a few months everything was one-line answers, deflections, the barest minimum engagement. The energy sank like a rock. I asked him about it, and he said "Nothing changed, just sometimes there are ebbs and flows to our connection."
Sometimes he says no to a thing and then does it anyway, way more than I was originally asking for. When we were talking about check-ins during stressful times, he told me, "I don't want to be thinking about you all the time." I agreed and stopped texting him, which at that point was every 1-2 days. A few days later he proceeded to text me every few hours, basically liveblogging his current project to me (via text), including the line "Thinking of you," which seemed notably out of character. Similarly, he said he didn't want to camp with me at Burning Man, but then independently chose to spend so much time helping me set up and inviting me to his camp that we might as well have camped together. I was pretty surprised at both of these things.
He never asks me, or anyone else, for help of any kind (emotional, logistical, etc.). This is true even when it hurts him. Recently he had a housewarming party and the water pump failed and he had to get water from the neighbors. He was obviously stressed at having to find containers, carry water, call neighbors, etc. while also hosting guests, but he turned down every offer of help from anyone who was there.
To sum up: He does these wildly generous unasked-for favors, but he's not willing to ask "Hey, how's that stressful thing going?" He's a self-identified people pleaser, but as soon as he knows something is important to me, he won't engage with it. He alternates between yes to everything and no to everything. We have so much fun when we're doing things from our limited menu of activities, but trying anything new is off the table. The inconsistency is driving me nuts! I would not say I'm being clingy here, but I do feel jerked around and like he's calling all the shots. What's the point of having a friend if I can't rely on him for anything at all?
Recently I set a boundary that I can't talk to him about the good stuff in my life if I can't also talk to him about the bad stuff. He agreed that he couldn't do this reliably. So now we're not really in touch anymore, and we're both sad about it.
What is going on here and how do I reconcile all of this? Is there a way to get off the rollercoaster other than to not be in touch?
This friend will fly across the country multiple times a year to see me. When I asked him to record a few songs during my band's performance, he went out of his way to record every single song in both sets. This year we were both at Burning Man (but not camping together), and he gave me his own shade structure to use and offered to pick me up at Reno (a 6-hour round trip that fortunately didn't happen as I got a different ride). All of these were freely and joyfully given. He is obviously delighted to see me in person. If there's any kind of travel or logistics involved, he will do 10x what is necessary, and this has been true for years.
And yet. If he knows I'm struggling, he will just avoid those topics. Last year he knew that I was having a stressful time with a health scare, then buying a car, then moving across the country. I would tell him about these things, and he would listen but mostly give one-line responses. The next time we talked he would never ask "Hey, how is the move going?" or "Have you found a car yet?" His attitude seems to be "That's your problem, what do you expect me to do about it?" I told him in words, "Hey, I'm feeling really stressed and it would feel really good to get some check-ins" and he responded, "Sorry, that's just not something I do." When pressed, he said, "It's important for me to feel safe saying no" and "I don't think we owe each other anything." I've encouraged him to find a way to show up for me that would feel good to him, even if it's not a check-in, and he said that makes sense but he can't think of anything.
This kind of blanket refusal also happens a lot for activities I try to initiate. We both like hiking, for instance, but if I propose that we take a hiking trip, he will say "Nah, I'm not feeling it, but you're welcome to do that yourself if you like." So I get a no most of the time. If it's something I want to share with him that he doesn't already do, like let's say I just started listening to a podcast or got into baking elaborate desserts and I suggest doing those things together, the chance of a no is close to 100%. "Sorry, it's just not my thing." So we end up doing the same limited menu of things that we've done for years, things that he is already into.
Sometimes he goes from saying yes to everything to no to everything. Earlier this year, there were a few months where he said yes and made time for just about everything I proposed (conversations, plans, visits, activities). If I texted him a snippet of my life, we would go back and forth about it for a while. He would tell me all kinds of things about his life too. The energy was very positive. But then the switch flipped, and suddenly for a few months everything was one-line answers, deflections, the barest minimum engagement. The energy sank like a rock. I asked him about it, and he said "Nothing changed, just sometimes there are ebbs and flows to our connection."
Sometimes he says no to a thing and then does it anyway, way more than I was originally asking for. When we were talking about check-ins during stressful times, he told me, "I don't want to be thinking about you all the time." I agreed and stopped texting him, which at that point was every 1-2 days. A few days later he proceeded to text me every few hours, basically liveblogging his current project to me (via text), including the line "Thinking of you," which seemed notably out of character. Similarly, he said he didn't want to camp with me at Burning Man, but then independently chose to spend so much time helping me set up and inviting me to his camp that we might as well have camped together. I was pretty surprised at both of these things.
He never asks me, or anyone else, for help of any kind (emotional, logistical, etc.). This is true even when it hurts him. Recently he had a housewarming party and the water pump failed and he had to get water from the neighbors. He was obviously stressed at having to find containers, carry water, call neighbors, etc. while also hosting guests, but he turned down every offer of help from anyone who was there.
To sum up: He does these wildly generous unasked-for favors, but he's not willing to ask "Hey, how's that stressful thing going?" He's a self-identified people pleaser, but as soon as he knows something is important to me, he won't engage with it. He alternates between yes to everything and no to everything. We have so much fun when we're doing things from our limited menu of activities, but trying anything new is off the table. The inconsistency is driving me nuts! I would not say I'm being clingy here, but I do feel jerked around and like he's calling all the shots. What's the point of having a friend if I can't rely on him for anything at all?
Recently I set a boundary that I can't talk to him about the good stuff in my life if I can't also talk to him about the bad stuff. He agreed that he couldn't do this reliably. So now we're not really in touch anymore, and we're both sad about it.
What is going on here and how do I reconcile all of this? Is there a way to get off the rollercoaster other than to not be in touch?
It does sound like he's communicating directly and kindly about most of this. He doesn't want to check in when you need it, but when he feels like it. He told you this:
"Nothing changed, just sometimes there are ebbs and flows to our connection."
Maybe reword this to the following in your head:
"Nothing changed, just sometimes there are ebbs and flows to how I feel about connecting with you."
Is that okay? If not, then grieve and move on. Or take what he is offering. You won't get him to change, and it's time to stop asking.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:48 PM on December 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
"Nothing changed, just sometimes there are ebbs and flows to our connection."
Maybe reword this to the following in your head:
"Nothing changed, just sometimes there are ebbs and flows to how I feel about connecting with you."
Is that okay? If not, then grieve and move on. Or take what he is offering. You won't get him to change, and it's time to stop asking.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:48 PM on December 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Sounds autistic to me (him never asking for help of any kind was the clincher). [Note: I'm autistic.] And unlike me, he understands his limits and boundaries. You can accept him for who he is, or you can move on. Your call.
posted by heatherlogan at 4:54 PM on December 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 4:54 PM on December 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
restless_nomad is completely right.
Here are some possibilities, which might be totally off-base.
Hearing that someone is struggling is really difficult for him. It makes him feel sad and overwhelmed and then he checks out and can't give emotional support. Heck, maybe he never learned to give emotional support in the first place, and that makes him feel insecure.
He doesn't like trying new things. He'd rather keep doing the same things, which he knows he's good at and enjoys.
He feels more comfortable when things happen on his terms. Maybe doing something because someone asked him to actually freaks him out a little, like he's under their control.
He has periods of high energy and periods of low energy, and he's not always able to predict which period he's going to be in. When he has low energy, he can't be as social as you like - it's just too much. So he does as much as he can, and he really does care a lot, but he comes off as cold and distant. Plus, sometimes he says, “No, I can't do the thing, sorry,” because he thinks he'll be too low-energy to do the thing, but then it turns out he has high energy by the time the thing happens.
He doesn't like admitting that he needs something. Being dependent on other people scares him. It also scares him when other people are dependent on him.
So, who knows. These are all just random guesses. Personally, I think they're perfectly fine qualities to have in a friend, and it's great he has such strong boundaries. But if you don't like having a friend who's like this, that's entirely okay. You're allowed to stop being friends with someone.
posted by spiderbeforesunset at 4:59 PM on December 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
Here are some possibilities, which might be totally off-base.
Hearing that someone is struggling is really difficult for him. It makes him feel sad and overwhelmed and then he checks out and can't give emotional support. Heck, maybe he never learned to give emotional support in the first place, and that makes him feel insecure.
He doesn't like trying new things. He'd rather keep doing the same things, which he knows he's good at and enjoys.
He feels more comfortable when things happen on his terms. Maybe doing something because someone asked him to actually freaks him out a little, like he's under their control.
He has periods of high energy and periods of low energy, and he's not always able to predict which period he's going to be in. When he has low energy, he can't be as social as you like - it's just too much. So he does as much as he can, and he really does care a lot, but he comes off as cold and distant. Plus, sometimes he says, “No, I can't do the thing, sorry,” because he thinks he'll be too low-energy to do the thing, but then it turns out he has high energy by the time the thing happens.
He doesn't like admitting that he needs something. Being dependent on other people scares him. It also scares him when other people are dependent on him.
So, who knows. These are all just random guesses. Personally, I think they're perfectly fine qualities to have in a friend, and it's great he has such strong boundaries. But if you don't like having a friend who's like this, that's entirely okay. You're allowed to stop being friends with someone.
posted by spiderbeforesunset at 4:59 PM on December 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
So as not to abuse the edit window: the few-months-duration engagement/disengagement pattern sounds like a classic autistic-burnout cycle. And it also sounds like there's a bit of PDA-profile [e.g.] in the mix with him not wanting to do things when you're calling the shots.
The great thing about autistic people, generally, is what you see is what you get; i.e., there's very likely to be no manipulation or subterfuge going on. You're looking for the subterfuge, which is why you can't figure out what's going on.
posted by heatherlogan at 4:59 PM on December 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
The great thing about autistic people, generally, is what you see is what you get; i.e., there's very likely to be no manipulation or subterfuge going on. You're looking for the subterfuge, which is why you can't figure out what's going on.
posted by heatherlogan at 4:59 PM on December 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Honestly, it sounds to me like there's some (undiagnosed?) bipolar going on here. This
Earlier this year, there were a few months where he said yes and made time for just about everything I proposed (conversations, plans, visits, activities). If I texted him a snippet of my life, we would go back and forth about it for a while. He would tell me all kinds of things about his life too. The energy was very positive. But then the switch flipped, and suddenly for a few months everything was one-line answers, deflections, the barest minimum engagement. The energy sank like a rock.
is just such a typical pattern for someone going through mood cycles. This "rollercoaster" may be more literal than you're thinking. Keep in mind that not everyone on the bipolar spectrum is the classic bipolar I that's super easy to recognize (profound lows, and delusional highs). This site has a lot of helpful information when it comes to understanding that spectrum.
As for the rest of it, some of this perplexing behavior may just be the result of a person struggling with mental health stuff, which burns you out terribly in subtle ways, and can lead to everything but the most salient daily tasks getting dropped. But then after a few months, he feels like a bad friend, and tries to check in, but it comes off as stilted because there's guilt attached, and also tbh he probably knows he's not going to be able to fully engage if you respond in detail. But when asked for a specific favor, he goes overboard, because this feels like a concrete way to make up for his perceived deficiencies as a friend.
This is just my theory. It may be wrong. Either way, it mostly just sounds like you two have differing expectations about how reliable and close this friendship will be. It's okay to have friends whom you know aren't able to be there for you emotionally in the ways you prefer. You just have to recognize that, and decide to accept it, and put Brad or whoever in the "fun but not the guy to call when I need support" category, rather than resenting how he shows up (or doesn't). Right now, I think you're taking some of this quite personally, and creating unnecessary agita for yourself. "Brad" being honest about not wanting to do a specific activity isn't about you. It sounds like you guys just don't have that much in common, activity-wise, and should stick to what already works. Unless he's a sociopath or something, he's not saying no because he knows you like the activity and now wants to hurt you by declaring that baking or parasailing is not for him, I promise.
Give yourself the freedom to shed whatever expectations you had for this friendship. It's not what you wanted it to be. But won't it be marvelous to explore what it can be for you both, once you're in a fresh state of mind? You and Brad aren't going to be BFFs, but it sounds like his energy really does benefit you at times. Why not agree to let yourself engage when both of you are on the same wavelength, and then let him go with grace whenever he shifts into a place that isn't good for you? It's okay to let texts go unanswered if you don't feel like responding, for instance.
You two seem to genuinely care about each other, and since there's not abusive behavior involved, that means there's something worth preserving here. Friendship is rare and precious, like water in the desert. And like that water, it doesn't always manifest how you expect. Sometimes it's in the barrel cactus, and not flowing through the arroyo. You know?
posted by desert outpost at 5:06 PM on December 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Earlier this year, there were a few months where he said yes and made time for just about everything I proposed (conversations, plans, visits, activities). If I texted him a snippet of my life, we would go back and forth about it for a while. He would tell me all kinds of things about his life too. The energy was very positive. But then the switch flipped, and suddenly for a few months everything was one-line answers, deflections, the barest minimum engagement. The energy sank like a rock.
is just such a typical pattern for someone going through mood cycles. This "rollercoaster" may be more literal than you're thinking. Keep in mind that not everyone on the bipolar spectrum is the classic bipolar I that's super easy to recognize (profound lows, and delusional highs). This site has a lot of helpful information when it comes to understanding that spectrum.
As for the rest of it, some of this perplexing behavior may just be the result of a person struggling with mental health stuff, which burns you out terribly in subtle ways, and can lead to everything but the most salient daily tasks getting dropped. But then after a few months, he feels like a bad friend, and tries to check in, but it comes off as stilted because there's guilt attached, and also tbh he probably knows he's not going to be able to fully engage if you respond in detail. But when asked for a specific favor, he goes overboard, because this feels like a concrete way to make up for his perceived deficiencies as a friend.
This is just my theory. It may be wrong. Either way, it mostly just sounds like you two have differing expectations about how reliable and close this friendship will be. It's okay to have friends whom you know aren't able to be there for you emotionally in the ways you prefer. You just have to recognize that, and decide to accept it, and put Brad or whoever in the "fun but not the guy to call when I need support" category, rather than resenting how he shows up (or doesn't). Right now, I think you're taking some of this quite personally, and creating unnecessary agita for yourself. "Brad" being honest about not wanting to do a specific activity isn't about you. It sounds like you guys just don't have that much in common, activity-wise, and should stick to what already works. Unless he's a sociopath or something, he's not saying no because he knows you like the activity and now wants to hurt you by declaring that baking or parasailing is not for him, I promise.
Give yourself the freedom to shed whatever expectations you had for this friendship. It's not what you wanted it to be. But won't it be marvelous to explore what it can be for you both, once you're in a fresh state of mind? You and Brad aren't going to be BFFs, but it sounds like his energy really does benefit you at times. Why not agree to let yourself engage when both of you are on the same wavelength, and then let him go with grace whenever he shifts into a place that isn't good for you? It's okay to let texts go unanswered if you don't feel like responding, for instance.
You two seem to genuinely care about each other, and since there's not abusive behavior involved, that means there's something worth preserving here. Friendship is rare and precious, like water in the desert. And like that water, it doesn't always manifest how you expect. Sometimes it's in the barrel cactus, and not flowing through the arroyo. You know?
posted by desert outpost at 5:06 PM on December 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
"He's a self-identified people pleaser, but as soon as he knows something is important to me, he won't engage with it."
Offering to collect you from your flight, recording additional songs, extra travel planning -- those were unexpected pleasures.
Being asked for help, being recruited for unfamiliar activities -- those are opportunities to disappoint.
If you can meet him where he consistently communicates he is, he's a good friend.
He's just not an all-purpose friend.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:06 PM on December 15, 2022 [36 favorites]
Offering to collect you from your flight, recording additional songs, extra travel planning -- those were unexpected pleasures.
Being asked for help, being recruited for unfamiliar activities -- those are opportunities to disappoint.
If you can meet him where he consistently communicates he is, he's a good friend.
He's just not an all-purpose friend.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:06 PM on December 15, 2022 [36 favorites]
Being asked for help, being recruited for unfamiliar activities -- those are opportunities to disappoint.
I think this is a strong possibility, too, in addition to perhaps having issues with his energy levels and/or moods. I was a parentified child and and it took me a long time to be able to properly engage with friends in emotional difficulty because I feared either disappointing them or being overwhelmed by their needs. What do you know about his past?
In any case, as others have pointed out, he might be a good person who just can't meet your needs in this area. If that's the case, and you can't accept his boundaries and limitations, there's nothing wrong with moving on and finding more compatible friends.
posted by rpfields at 5:31 PM on December 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think this is a strong possibility, too, in addition to perhaps having issues with his energy levels and/or moods. I was a parentified child and and it took me a long time to be able to properly engage with friends in emotional difficulty because I feared either disappointing them or being overwhelmed by their needs. What do you know about his past?
In any case, as others have pointed out, he might be a good person who just can't meet your needs in this area. If that's the case, and you can't accept his boundaries and limitations, there's nothing wrong with moving on and finding more compatible friends.
posted by rpfields at 5:31 PM on December 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
I have a good friend who responds really badly if I try to talk to him about some kind of romantic upset. There have been some times when I felt really frustrated that he couldn't be there for me the way I wanted him too, but by now I've just accepted him the way he is. I know he loves me, when we hang out and talk about life, it's all good. I've learned to be really aware about how I feel when I talk to specific people, so now I know who to talk to about what, and who not to.
Honestly, the way you describe your friend doesn't sound like he's doing anything wrong. Some people (most people?) can't be the way you want them to be. I think we have friendships that meet so many of our needs that we think everyone should do that, and it's just not like that. This friend just can't be the way you want them to be, and also seems to be reacting a bit to you expressing your feelings about it.
Once in while I have had a friend or possible friend say something like "You never call me" or something along those lines, and right away I tell them, "I like you, I care about you but I don't always feel sociable. Please don't take it personally."
I suggest writing down all of your feelings about what you want from this friend, identifying other friends who can do those things for you and see them more, and then letting go of your expectations for this friend, and just enjoy them for who they are.
posted by Locochona at 5:38 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Honestly, the way you describe your friend doesn't sound like he's doing anything wrong. Some people (most people?) can't be the way you want them to be. I think we have friendships that meet so many of our needs that we think everyone should do that, and it's just not like that. This friend just can't be the way you want them to be, and also seems to be reacting a bit to you expressing your feelings about it.
Once in while I have had a friend or possible friend say something like "You never call me" or something along those lines, and right away I tell them, "I like you, I care about you but I don't always feel sociable. Please don't take it personally."
I suggest writing down all of your feelings about what you want from this friend, identifying other friends who can do those things for you and see them more, and then letting go of your expectations for this friend, and just enjoy them for who they are.
posted by Locochona at 5:38 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think it's good to be cautious about diagnosing other people.
Your friend has been clear about who they are and what they can offer. You can accept that, and see if they develop new capabilities or not. You can to reduce your commitment to this friendship because it's not working for you. He isn't defining you; you are reactive to him. Nothing wrong with that except that it frustrates you.
What I recommend is listening hard when your friend tells you and shows you who they are, and having other friendships that meet your other needs and wants. Ask him about his behavior in a non-judgmental way.
It's not clear if this is a non-romantic/ non-sexual relationship, or if you want quite a bit more from the relationship.
posted by theora55 at 7:56 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Your friend has been clear about who they are and what they can offer. You can accept that, and see if they develop new capabilities or not. You can to reduce your commitment to this friendship because it's not working for you. He isn't defining you; you are reactive to him. Nothing wrong with that except that it frustrates you.
What I recommend is listening hard when your friend tells you and shows you who they are, and having other friendships that meet your other needs and wants. Ask him about his behavior in a non-judgmental way.
It's not clear if this is a non-romantic/ non-sexual relationship, or if you want quite a bit more from the relationship.
posted by theora55 at 7:56 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: I really struggle with feeling that the friendship is almost entirely on his terms. Even the moments of extreme generosity are on his terms. If I ask for anything meaningful to me, that I actually care about, he says no.
Activity buddies are great! I have lots of them. But having an activity buddy, who also calls all the shots about how and when we do that activity, doesn't sound like that much fun to me. And oscillating between deep close friends and arm's length activity buddies, often with incongruously generous favors, is exhausting. On any given day/week/month, I don't know which flavor of friend I'll get, and that makes me not want to reach out.
posted by Questolicious at 8:17 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Activity buddies are great! I have lots of them. But having an activity buddy, who also calls all the shots about how and when we do that activity, doesn't sound like that much fun to me. And oscillating between deep close friends and arm's length activity buddies, often with incongruously generous favors, is exhausting. On any given day/week/month, I don't know which flavor of friend I'll get, and that makes me not want to reach out.
posted by Questolicious at 8:17 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
He's allergic to drama. If you're not, move on.
posted by flabdablet at 9:28 PM on December 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 9:28 PM on December 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
You're asking for this person to interact with you like a partner, not a friend.
posted by Adifferentbear at 10:44 PM on December 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by Adifferentbear at 10:44 PM on December 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
Some people really don't have any intuition for how to interact with others. As someone on the internet who doesn't know you, asking him very explicitly for what you need seems appropriate. Perhaps you have. (I have been accused of behaving similarly in the past, but with different details; I'd welcome a very direct discussion. The less subtle the more useful.) I'd suggest suggesting an autism spectrum evaluation if he wouldn't object, or reading about such things yourself if you care about him enough to continue to engage. (But, move on might also be the right choice. You don't need a reason to end a friendship. Even if it's painful.) Sympathy and best wishes.
posted by eotvos at 11:00 PM on December 15, 2022
posted by eotvos at 11:00 PM on December 15, 2022
He likes to feel generous, he doesn't like to feel like he has responsibilities. Only certain kinds of friendships are possible with people who think this way, and ones that involve regular and routine mutual emotional support are not among them. Sorry.
posted by praemunire at 11:25 PM on December 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:25 PM on December 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
I came to say something like praemunire did - it reminds me a little of a friend's ex-husband, who would fight child support and refuse to pay the kid's college tuition but then would swing in and try to take them on fancy vacations. He wanted to always be the hero, and if you're reliable then almost by definition you're being taken for granted. Everything good he did had to be unexpected.
This isn't the whole picture, I think; it certainly doesn't touch on why he only wants to do His Things and not want to impress you by trying new things or whatever (although friend's ex always wanted to take the kids on his idea of a grand adventure and not theirs, so maybe it's a bit in common). But it's a lens to try on and see if it fits.
And maybe see what happens if next time he offers you some over the top thing you say, nah, I'm good, you said before you couldn't so I made other plans. If he handles it well, maybe you can keep enjoying his friendship when he's in the mood, and just think of him like a weather pattern to enjoy, or a sailor off to sea for six months.
posted by Lady Li at 12:34 AM on December 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
This isn't the whole picture, I think; it certainly doesn't touch on why he only wants to do His Things and not want to impress you by trying new things or whatever (although friend's ex always wanted to take the kids on his idea of a grand adventure and not theirs, so maybe it's a bit in common). But it's a lens to try on and see if it fits.
And maybe see what happens if next time he offers you some over the top thing you say, nah, I'm good, you said before you couldn't so I made other plans. If he handles it well, maybe you can keep enjoying his friendship when he's in the mood, and just think of him like a weather pattern to enjoy, or a sailor off to sea for six months.
posted by Lady Li at 12:34 AM on December 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
You’ve mentioned that everything you two do is entirely on his terms, but all the examples are about your events or struggles or needs (eg, your ground). That’s fine but what are your thoughts about the ways you show up for him and how that’s received? Reflecting a bit more about your role in this friendship might bring you some additional insight.
Exploring not just whose terms, but also ground (yours, his, common), role (how you’re both showing up) and context (what else is going on?) might be fruitful.
posted by iamkimiam at 1:10 AM on December 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
Exploring not just whose terms, but also ground (yours, his, common), role (how you’re both showing up) and context (what else is going on?) might be fruitful.
posted by iamkimiam at 1:10 AM on December 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
Oh and PDA mentioned in the comment way above stands for Pathological Demand Avoidance, in case anyone is wondering.
posted by iamkimiam at 1:13 AM on December 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by iamkimiam at 1:13 AM on December 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
iamkimiam is correct about the meaning of PDA, but the acronym is often recast as Persistent Drive for Autonomy by those who actually experience it. Less pathologizing.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:19 AM on December 16, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 6:19 AM on December 16, 2022 [8 favorites]
I guess I don't see what is wrong or frustrating about someone offering his friendship to you on his terms and clearly communicating to you what those terms are, in a kind and generous and honest way. The roller coaster you reference is not actually one he is on at all -- it's one you are on that he refuses to get on himself.
Recently I set a boundary that I can't talk to him about the good stuff in my life if I can't also talk to him about the bad stuff. He agreed that he couldn't do this reliably. So now we're not really in touch anymore, and we're both sad about it.
Why would make yourself and your friend sad like this? Again, he's not the one riding roller coasters; he just doesn't want to ride yours.
posted by desert exile at 6:50 AM on December 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
Recently I set a boundary that I can't talk to him about the good stuff in my life if I can't also talk to him about the bad stuff. He agreed that he couldn't do this reliably. So now we're not really in touch anymore, and we're both sad about it.
Why would make yourself and your friend sad like this? Again, he's not the one riding roller coasters; he just doesn't want to ride yours.
posted by desert exile at 6:50 AM on December 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
Recently I set a boundary that I can't talk to him about the good stuff in my life if I can't also talk to him about the bad stuff. He agreed that he couldn't do this reliably. So now we're not really in touch anymore, and we're both sad about it.
You say that but then you also say
I would tell him about these things, and he would listen
and then we get to what seems to be the real problem
but mostly give one-line responses...he would never ask "Hey, how is the move going?" or "Have you found a car yet?"
So it's not that you can't talk to him about the bad stuff. You can, he's happy to listen to your woes. What he isn't doing is respond the way you want him to. Some people just aren't built like that and won't. It's not wrong to want friends who do but he isn't able to give you that. The problem is, that you are framing this as your friend being inconsistent and he's anything but.
Nothing you have said here suggests that your friend is inconsistent in how they approach the friendship or the level of interaction and support they are willing and able to provide. He has clearly demonstrated what you can expect as a baseline. He has clearly demonstrated that he is perfectly willing to go out of his way for you in many ways - travel, practical support etc. He's even willing to listen to you talk about your woes. He's just not going to respond all touchy feely and he's not going to ask how it's going after you have shared a challenge. You can either enjoy all the things he is able to offer you and seek the emotional validation you want elsewhere, or you stop being friends.
posted by koahiatamadl at 7:10 AM on December 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
You say that but then you also say
I would tell him about these things, and he would listen
and then we get to what seems to be the real problem
but mostly give one-line responses...he would never ask "Hey, how is the move going?" or "Have you found a car yet?"
So it's not that you can't talk to him about the bad stuff. You can, he's happy to listen to your woes. What he isn't doing is respond the way you want him to. Some people just aren't built like that and won't. It's not wrong to want friends who do but he isn't able to give you that. The problem is, that you are framing this as your friend being inconsistent and he's anything but.
Nothing you have said here suggests that your friend is inconsistent in how they approach the friendship or the level of interaction and support they are willing and able to provide. He has clearly demonstrated what you can expect as a baseline. He has clearly demonstrated that he is perfectly willing to go out of his way for you in many ways - travel, practical support etc. He's even willing to listen to you talk about your woes. He's just not going to respond all touchy feely and he's not going to ask how it's going after you have shared a challenge. You can either enjoy all the things he is able to offer you and seek the emotional validation you want elsewhere, or you stop being friends.
posted by koahiatamadl at 7:10 AM on December 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: The roller coaster you reference is not actually one he is on at all -- it's one you are on that he refuses to get on himself.
Lol, I wish that were true. I tried to stick to just bare-bones facts in my post and not get derailed by context, but boy, there's a lot of additional context here.
The roller coaster he's on, in his own words, is that he desperately needs people to think well of him. We've been through a lot together over the last few years and grew fairly close. We know things about each other's relationship history and family history that no one else does. For a while it felt like we were best friends.
So yeah, given this background, it feels weird to stick to being arm's length activity buddies. And also, as soon as I take any amount of distance, leave a text unanswered or don't freely share the details of my life, he notices and asks, "Are you upset with me? Did I do something wrong?" He goes to great lengths to resolve the conflict, even beyond what is sustainable for him, even if I'm not asking for that. By his own admission, he's both pushing me away and terrified to lose me. To be honest, it's better now than it used to be, but it's still a lot.
the few-months-duration engagement/disengagement pattern sounds like a classic autistic-burnout cycle
This sounds spot on and might actually be the factor I was missing. We're both neurodivergent with some PDA in the mix, and I think he regularly blows right past his own limits without noticing and then needs a ton of time and space to recover, which feeds the roller coaster effect.
posted by Questolicious at 8:25 AM on December 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Lol, I wish that were true. I tried to stick to just bare-bones facts in my post and not get derailed by context, but boy, there's a lot of additional context here.
The roller coaster he's on, in his own words, is that he desperately needs people to think well of him. We've been through a lot together over the last few years and grew fairly close. We know things about each other's relationship history and family history that no one else does. For a while it felt like we were best friends.
So yeah, given this background, it feels weird to stick to being arm's length activity buddies. And also, as soon as I take any amount of distance, leave a text unanswered or don't freely share the details of my life, he notices and asks, "Are you upset with me? Did I do something wrong?" He goes to great lengths to resolve the conflict, even beyond what is sustainable for him, even if I'm not asking for that. By his own admission, he's both pushing me away and terrified to lose me. To be honest, it's better now than it used to be, but it's still a lot.
the few-months-duration engagement/disengagement pattern sounds like a classic autistic-burnout cycle
This sounds spot on and might actually be the factor I was missing. We're both neurodivergent with some PDA in the mix, and I think he regularly blows right past his own limits without noticing and then needs a ton of time and space to recover, which feeds the roller coaster effect.
posted by Questolicious at 8:25 AM on December 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think you’re right, and your instincts are accurate: he’s trying to keep you on the hook without being truly honest or vulnerable. This is essentially a sign of weakness, not strength, in a person. It’s a reactive way to live to try to control his world and keep it comfortable, but it’s not equitable and it’s not sustainable.
posted by stockpuppet at 10:42 AM on December 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by stockpuppet at 10:42 AM on December 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Could it also be that you are all are in an anxious avoidant cycle? This can happen in any kind of close relationship, not just intimate or romantic relationships. The fact that you taking some space or stepping back typically draws him in (even if you don't intend for that to happen) sounds like that cycle.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:48 AM on December 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 10:48 AM on December 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I told him in words, "Hey, I'm feeling really stressed and it would feel really good to get some check-ins" and he responded, "Sorry, that's just not something I do." When pressed, he said, "It's important for me to feel safe saying no" and "I don't think we owe each other anything."
I would not say I'm being clingy here
With kindness, I would say you're being clingy here. Yes, some people are willing to do this sort of labor for their friends, but others understandably see this sort of thing as the job for a professional (i.e. therapist).
Based on everything you've written about this friendship, I wouldn't call it a mere "activity friendship." Like others have pointed out, he clearly is willing to listen to you sometimes talk through your anxieties, etc. And you really enjoy each other clearly when you spend time together - to me "activity friend" is more someone who you don't actually click with that much, it's only your shared interest in [activity] that brings you together - but you clearly have more of a connection with this friend - that's a special thing not to be tossed aside. But especially as people get older, most people have some distance between their friends that are long-distance - I have many friends who I don't see often - when I see them, it's great, but when we live several states away, we don't talk often. These are still important friendships to me.
In short, I'd work on accepting that this friendship as it is - I'd start my recognizing that your "boundary that I can't talk to him about the good stuff in my life if I can't also talk to him about the bad stuff" is not serving you - I once hear a psychologist saying that the main predictor for a health long-lasting relationship (platonic or romantic) was not whether the person could emphasize with your negative emotions but whether they could share in/celebrate your happiness. Can you friend do that? If so, drop the requirement that he also be able to share your sadness/stress.
posted by coffeecat at 11:03 AM on December 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
I would not say I'm being clingy here
With kindness, I would say you're being clingy here. Yes, some people are willing to do this sort of labor for their friends, but others understandably see this sort of thing as the job for a professional (i.e. therapist).
Based on everything you've written about this friendship, I wouldn't call it a mere "activity friendship." Like others have pointed out, he clearly is willing to listen to you sometimes talk through your anxieties, etc. And you really enjoy each other clearly when you spend time together - to me "activity friend" is more someone who you don't actually click with that much, it's only your shared interest in [activity] that brings you together - but you clearly have more of a connection with this friend - that's a special thing not to be tossed aside. But especially as people get older, most people have some distance between their friends that are long-distance - I have many friends who I don't see often - when I see them, it's great, but when we live several states away, we don't talk often. These are still important friendships to me.
In short, I'd work on accepting that this friendship as it is - I'd start my recognizing that your "boundary that I can't talk to him about the good stuff in my life if I can't also talk to him about the bad stuff" is not serving you - I once hear a psychologist saying that the main predictor for a health long-lasting relationship (platonic or romantic) was not whether the person could emphasize with your negative emotions but whether they could share in/celebrate your happiness. Can you friend do that? If so, drop the requirement that he also be able to share your sadness/stress.
posted by coffeecat at 11:03 AM on December 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
This sounds spot on and might actually be the factor I was missing. We're both neurodivergent with some PDA in the mix, and I think he regularly blows right past his own limits without noticing and then needs a ton of time and space to recover, which feeds the roller coaster effect.
This makes a lot of sense and thanks for the update. If you are in a close relationship involving people with these characteristics, including when you have them yourself, a lot of patience is required and it seems like you have given that (and maybe so has your friend). So what can you both do?
Accept that neither of you probably have the ability to take away the other person's pain and troubled workings, even if you want to (which it sounds like you both want to do, but can't).
Practice setting boundaries (which it sounds like you both are).
Don't disclose too much inner turmoil unless you know your friend is ready and able to accept it (which might itself wax and wane like your connection itself) and be extra careful around moments when you are lowering your guard and your friend is raising theirs, and vice versa (it sounds like you are both trying).
Go overboard, by contrast, in graciously and enthusiastically accepting unsolicited expressions of generosity and friendship and not seeing them as "highs" on a roller coaster but as instances of your friend surfacing from the depths of their own inner workings.
Be a secure base for each other while you both explore your own inner workings.
It might help also to simply switch metaphors: maybe you aren't on a roller coaster together, maybe you are navigating peaks and valleys of the Land Called Friendship.
It sounds like a lovely connection, actually, and I can see why you are friends and why it's hard and why you don't want to let go, and are both sad that you (temporarily?) did.
Good luck.
posted by desert exile at 11:08 AM on December 16, 2022
This makes a lot of sense and thanks for the update. If you are in a close relationship involving people with these characteristics, including when you have them yourself, a lot of patience is required and it seems like you have given that (and maybe so has your friend). So what can you both do?
Accept that neither of you probably have the ability to take away the other person's pain and troubled workings, even if you want to (which it sounds like you both want to do, but can't).
Practice setting boundaries (which it sounds like you both are).
Don't disclose too much inner turmoil unless you know your friend is ready and able to accept it (which might itself wax and wane like your connection itself) and be extra careful around moments when you are lowering your guard and your friend is raising theirs, and vice versa (it sounds like you are both trying).
Go overboard, by contrast, in graciously and enthusiastically accepting unsolicited expressions of generosity and friendship and not seeing them as "highs" on a roller coaster but as instances of your friend surfacing from the depths of their own inner workings.
Be a secure base for each other while you both explore your own inner workings.
It might help also to simply switch metaphors: maybe you aren't on a roller coaster together, maybe you are navigating peaks and valleys of the Land Called Friendship.
It sounds like a lovely connection, actually, and I can see why you are friends and why it's hard and why you don't want to let go, and are both sad that you (temporarily?) did.
Good luck.
posted by desert exile at 11:08 AM on December 16, 2022
OP: “as soon as I take any amount of distance, leave a text unanswered or don't freely share the details of my life, he notices and asks, "Are you upset with me? Did I do something wrong?"”
I wonder if this is an opportunity for you to set a boundary. He feels free to withdraw and assert his time alone, but he doesn’t allow you to do the same. It’s important for you to be able to distance yourself if you’re too hurt or disappointed to engage in the friendship. In other words, he has to learn to feel comfortable with the consequences of his boundary-setting!
posted by cranberrymonger at 4:46 PM on December 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
I wonder if this is an opportunity for you to set a boundary. He feels free to withdraw and assert his time alone, but he doesn’t allow you to do the same. It’s important for you to be able to distance yourself if you’re too hurt or disappointed to engage in the friendship. In other words, he has to learn to feel comfortable with the consequences of his boundary-setting!
posted by cranberrymonger at 4:46 PM on December 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think you have a distorted view of friendship and closeness that isn't serving you well.
You want to either share literally everything with each other:
- emotional intimacy on a deep level (knowing each other's history)
- high-effort hangouts involving long distance travel
- daily contact to exchange news
- steady day-to-day emotional and moral support on daily activities
- influencing each other to try each other's favorite podcasts, recipes, etc.
- do all the things you both like *with you* when you suggest doing it
- stay completely connected with you with unvarying positive energetic engagement at all times...
or else you consider it as a friendship "at arm's length", distant and not deep/real enough to satisfy you - less than ideal, something that would leave you disheartened and let down, something that feels like a betrayal of past intimacy.
This view of friendship is a choice you're making. You can choose to define a satisfying and wonderful friendship differently, help yourself appreciate the friendship you have instead of chasing after (to be blunt) a truly unattainable ideal of friendship that most people wouldn't expect even from a romantic partner or life companion. You can choose to get comfortable with the natural distances, the organic ebbs and flows in engagement, that are part of any long distance friendship. You could choose to meet your many needs for intimacy from lots of other people instead of putting all your needs onto this one person to be your everything. You could choose to appreciate and enjoy the wonderful, deep, connected friendship you do have with this guy. You could choose to allow this to be a fulfilling friendship that nourishes you, exactly as-is.
I don't think your friend sounds at all autistic or bipolar, really. He sounds like a normal dude trying to have a deep and close friendship with you on really kind of wonderful terms, with normal ups and downs in engagement level as can be expected from any friend who lives far away from you. Yes, the friendship is on "his terms" but only because your terms are so all-encompassing that a literal twin soul would not be able to meet them!
More concerning: I also notice that you're using what he has disclosed about himself to you against him: for example, the fact that he has revealed to you that he is a people pleaser and he really wants people to like him all the time - this revelation is something you're now using against him:
(1) As an argument that you're entitled to everlasting closeness with him and anything short of perfect connectedness with you at all times is a betrayal. Like, "See? I know you so deeply! I understand you inside out! You've told me this about yourself, that's how intimate we are. How can you move away now? Doesn't this intimacy mean anything to you?"
(2) To reel him back in when you feel he is pulling away. You KNOW he doesn't like to feel as if you're angry with him so you "take distance" (i.e. sulking, going silent in a huff) every time you want him to notice you and check in on you.
This second bit is disturbing on another level too because look at what you said:
> given this background, it feels weird to stick to being arm's length activity buddies. And also, as soon as I take any amount of distance, leave a text unanswered or don't freely share the details of my life, he notices and asks, "Are you upset with me? Did I do something wrong?" He goes to great lengths to resolve the conflict, even beyond what is sustainable for him, even if I'm not asking for that.
You're "taking distance" when you feel he has failed you. It's not an accident that you went silent, not like you were just busy for a few days. It's not just an ordinary, organic silence. It's not a comfortable distance, or a happy friendly silence. You ARE upset and angry, you ARE sulking, and you're unhappy specifically because he has failed to pay enough attention to you. Then when he accurately notices that you're sulking and you're unhappy/upset with him (as well you knew he would!), you apparently deny that this response from him (increased attention to you and your feelings, increased efforts towards you) is exactly what you were seeking? You're telling him things like, you never asked him for all this?? This sounds uncomfortably close to gaslighting.
In another universe, you might have chosen to do something quite different with the information he disclosed to you about his people pleasing tendencies. You might have chosen to become the friend in his life that he never has to worry about placating or pleasing or avoiding conflict with. You might have chosen to use the information he told you about himself for HIS benefit rather than yours. You might have said to yourself, "He's never going to have to wonder whether I'm mad at him, and he's never going to have to work overtime to earn my approval. I'm going to communicate to him that he is enough just as he is, that he doesn't ever have to change himself or his preferences just to make me happy."
You can still choose to do that. You have the choice to change your attitude towards him. You can choose, today, to understand that your extreme need for closeness is something to be addressed in other ways (therapy, self help, other friends, romantic partners), and that your friend doesn't deserve to be treated like he's always falling short with you... especially when he's doing absolutely nothing wrong.
posted by MiraK at 2:51 PM on December 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
You want to either share literally everything with each other:
- emotional intimacy on a deep level (knowing each other's history)
- high-effort hangouts involving long distance travel
- daily contact to exchange news
- steady day-to-day emotional and moral support on daily activities
- influencing each other to try each other's favorite podcasts, recipes, etc.
- do all the things you both like *with you* when you suggest doing it
- stay completely connected with you with unvarying positive energetic engagement at all times...
or else you consider it as a friendship "at arm's length", distant and not deep/real enough to satisfy you - less than ideal, something that would leave you disheartened and let down, something that feels like a betrayal of past intimacy.
This view of friendship is a choice you're making. You can choose to define a satisfying and wonderful friendship differently, help yourself appreciate the friendship you have instead of chasing after (to be blunt) a truly unattainable ideal of friendship that most people wouldn't expect even from a romantic partner or life companion. You can choose to get comfortable with the natural distances, the organic ebbs and flows in engagement, that are part of any long distance friendship. You could choose to meet your many needs for intimacy from lots of other people instead of putting all your needs onto this one person to be your everything. You could choose to appreciate and enjoy the wonderful, deep, connected friendship you do have with this guy. You could choose to allow this to be a fulfilling friendship that nourishes you, exactly as-is.
I don't think your friend sounds at all autistic or bipolar, really. He sounds like a normal dude trying to have a deep and close friendship with you on really kind of wonderful terms, with normal ups and downs in engagement level as can be expected from any friend who lives far away from you. Yes, the friendship is on "his terms" but only because your terms are so all-encompassing that a literal twin soul would not be able to meet them!
More concerning: I also notice that you're using what he has disclosed about himself to you against him: for example, the fact that he has revealed to you that he is a people pleaser and he really wants people to like him all the time - this revelation is something you're now using against him:
(1) As an argument that you're entitled to everlasting closeness with him and anything short of perfect connectedness with you at all times is a betrayal. Like, "See? I know you so deeply! I understand you inside out! You've told me this about yourself, that's how intimate we are. How can you move away now? Doesn't this intimacy mean anything to you?"
(2) To reel him back in when you feel he is pulling away. You KNOW he doesn't like to feel as if you're angry with him so you "take distance" (i.e. sulking, going silent in a huff) every time you want him to notice you and check in on you.
This second bit is disturbing on another level too because look at what you said:
> given this background, it feels weird to stick to being arm's length activity buddies. And also, as soon as I take any amount of distance, leave a text unanswered or don't freely share the details of my life, he notices and asks, "Are you upset with me? Did I do something wrong?" He goes to great lengths to resolve the conflict, even beyond what is sustainable for him, even if I'm not asking for that.
You're "taking distance" when you feel he has failed you. It's not an accident that you went silent, not like you were just busy for a few days. It's not just an ordinary, organic silence. It's not a comfortable distance, or a happy friendly silence. You ARE upset and angry, you ARE sulking, and you're unhappy specifically because he has failed to pay enough attention to you. Then when he accurately notices that you're sulking and you're unhappy/upset with him (as well you knew he would!), you apparently deny that this response from him (increased attention to you and your feelings, increased efforts towards you) is exactly what you were seeking? You're telling him things like, you never asked him for all this?? This sounds uncomfortably close to gaslighting.
In another universe, you might have chosen to do something quite different with the information he disclosed to you about his people pleasing tendencies. You might have chosen to become the friend in his life that he never has to worry about placating or pleasing or avoiding conflict with. You might have chosen to use the information he told you about himself for HIS benefit rather than yours. You might have said to yourself, "He's never going to have to wonder whether I'm mad at him, and he's never going to have to work overtime to earn my approval. I'm going to communicate to him that he is enough just as he is, that he doesn't ever have to change himself or his preferences just to make me happy."
You can still choose to do that. You have the choice to change your attitude towards him. You can choose, today, to understand that your extreme need for closeness is something to be addressed in other ways (therapy, self help, other friends, romantic partners), and that your friend doesn't deserve to be treated like he's always falling short with you... especially when he's doing absolutely nothing wrong.
posted by MiraK at 2:51 PM on December 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Well, it’s been months and we haven’t been in touch much, but he told me what he thinks is going on. He says he has a disorganized or fearful-avoidant attachment style. He has the belief that he is not worthy of love or attention, is uncomfortable receiving either, and is terrified of failing everyone around him. He definitely pulls away (from me and others) whenever the connection seems too stable and good, then overcompensates by doing huge favors. Hence the rollercoaster effect. This is in addition to the neurodivergence, demand avoidance, autistic burnout, etc. which are all still there.
Honestly, I’m pretty sad to hear him say this, and he seems to be having a pretty tough time with personal relationships in general, but it does match my experience.
I once hear a psychologist saying that the main predictor for a health long-lasting relationship (platonic or romantic) was not whether the person could emphasize with your negative emotions but whether they could share in/celebrate your happiness. Can you friend do that?
I was dismayed to realize that no, he is often unable to share in my happiness, or takes it personally (like it’s a sign that he’s a failure), or even gets jealous (if it’s something he wanted too). Sometimes I end up cheering him up when I want to be celebrating. It feels super weird.
Unfortunately I think it is healthier for me to not be in touch with him.
posted by Questolicious at 12:27 AM on May 19, 2023
Honestly, I’m pretty sad to hear him say this, and he seems to be having a pretty tough time with personal relationships in general, but it does match my experience.
I once hear a psychologist saying that the main predictor for a health long-lasting relationship (platonic or romantic) was not whether the person could emphasize with your negative emotions but whether they could share in/celebrate your happiness. Can you friend do that?
I was dismayed to realize that no, he is often unable to share in my happiness, or takes it personally (like it’s a sign that he’s a failure), or even gets jealous (if it’s something he wanted too). Sometimes I end up cheering him up when I want to be celebrating. It feels super weird.
Unfortunately I think it is healthier for me to not be in touch with him.
posted by Questolicious at 12:27 AM on May 19, 2023
If someone has fearful attachment, just give up on them. It'll never get better. If he will always pull away, there is no point in trying to be close or maintaining a relationship he is always going to run from.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:52 AM on May 19, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:52 AM on May 19, 2023
This thread is closed to new comments.
So... I think what you see is what you get. If you can take the good parts and set your expectations realistically, that this is an intermittent friend who you do certain activities with, but is not an emotional-support friend and not an any-activity friend, then great. If you need a friend who is flexible and willing to do a lot of emotional engagement, you need to find a different person for that.
What's the point of having a friend if I can't rely on him for anything at all?
There are different kinds and levels of friendship. Deep, emotionally-vulnerable friendships are great, but they tend to be pretty rare, and shallower activity friendships are also a nice way to have connections with people and spend social time. If you can only have the former, you're not likely to have a really wide variety of friends, and, in particular, you're likely to have a lot less male friends, because men are usually socialized to be hangout buddies and not emotional support buddies. (There are exceptions! It sounds like this dude is not one of them.)
This may just be a bad fit, or it may be a fixable expectation mismatch. Either way, you're pretty much going to have to decide if you want to take him as he is or leave him altogether. Both are valid choices, it's "hoping he's going to change" that isn't going to get you anywhere.
posted by restless_nomad at 4:15 PM on December 15, 2022 [46 favorites]