Looking for 'strong brave heroine' responses to rape, in fiction.
December 15, 2022 4:08 PM Subscribe
There's not a good way to ask this; I'm looking for examples of a strong female character's response to rape or the threat of rape. For preference, ones where she not only survives but becomes stronger, and gets revenge. This is for a fiction story.
So I am writing a story which has a strong female heroine in a rough environment and it's basically a given that she's been raped before, when she was younger and weaker, but she is a badass now. But it can still happen if she is incapacitated or meets a worse badass. But I want her to not only survive but triumph.
If there's an example of this in fiction (or fact) that you remember as being particularly female-empowering, I'd like to hear about it. But I'd also welcome "do NOT do it like THIS" examples.
I am not looking for graphic detail, please; this is in no way meant to be titillating. Not interested in the actual act at all; just how the character deals with it.
I apologize for even asking this, I know it is problematic, and if this needs to be deleted I will accept that without fuss. Thanks.
So I am writing a story which has a strong female heroine in a rough environment and it's basically a given that she's been raped before, when she was younger and weaker, but she is a badass now. But it can still happen if she is incapacitated or meets a worse badass. But I want her to not only survive but triumph.
If there's an example of this in fiction (or fact) that you remember as being particularly female-empowering, I'd like to hear about it. But I'd also welcome "do NOT do it like THIS" examples.
I am not looking for graphic detail, please; this is in no way meant to be titillating. Not interested in the actual act at all; just how the character deals with it.
I apologize for even asking this, I know it is problematic, and if this needs to be deleted I will accept that without fuss. Thanks.
Response by poster: Oh, if it helps, the general setting is fantasy pirates. So yeah a young helpless girl captured on a pirate ship is going to have a rough time, but she becomes a badass pirate herself.
posted by The otter lady at 4:18 PM on December 15, 2022
posted by The otter lady at 4:18 PM on December 15, 2022
Consider the story of Susanna and the Elders, in which she tells the truth and is believed.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:19 PM on December 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:19 PM on December 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow, xedric, I hadn't even thought of that aspect but that's excellent, I'm going to work that in if I can. Thank you.
posted by The otter lady at 4:19 PM on December 15, 2022
posted by The otter lady at 4:19 PM on December 15, 2022
It's been a while since I read it, but Nell in Diamond Age is imprisoned and certainly assaulted, possibly raped. This might be spoiler-y, but my recollection is that she outsmarts her captors before killing most-if-not-all of them with weapons that she fashioned via the nano-tech that pervades the story (and her own martial arts skills).
I think the next thing is that she calls an army to herself, and takes over the world.
posted by adekllny at 4:39 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think the next thing is that she calls an army to herself, and takes over the world.
posted by adekllny at 4:39 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Olivia Benson in SVU took her own advice and went to therapy, and her regular therapy appointments became a story line of their own for future years-long plot arcs in the show. She struggled, she did the hard work, and she kept going. That is heroic.
posted by phunniemee at 4:43 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 4:43 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Oh and she also kills one of her attackers. There's your revenge.
posted by phunniemee at 4:44 PM on December 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 4:44 PM on December 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Madeline Miller's Circe ["A bold and subversive retelling of the goddess's story, this #1 New York Times bestseller is both epic and intimate in its scope, recasting the most infamous female figure from the Odyssey as a hero in her own right" (Alexandra Alter, The New York Times)]
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:46 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:46 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
MTV had a show Sweet/Vicious where a character is a rape survivor who becomes a vigilante going after rapists on her college campus.
posted by kat518 at 5:07 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kat518 at 5:07 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Red Sonja! (The comic and not the movie ... just because the movie is not good.) Her family is killed and she's raped and she prays to a goddess who gives her fighting skills as long as she swears off men who can't defeat her in combat. Slightly more complicated than that, but she then travels around helping out people who need it (also more complicated than that, but close enough).
Some of the early comics are a bit mixed in terms of quality but a lot of women have worked on Red Sonja throughout the years (both as writers and artists). I tend to really dislike rape backstories but when I was reading a bunch of Red Sonja comics earlier this year, I thought it worked. She didn't want what happened to her to happen to anyone else.
posted by edencosmic at 5:52 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Some of the early comics are a bit mixed in terms of quality but a lot of women have worked on Red Sonja throughout the years (both as writers and artists). I tend to really dislike rape backstories but when I was reading a bunch of Red Sonja comics earlier this year, I thought it worked. She didn't want what happened to her to happen to anyone else.
posted by edencosmic at 5:52 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Exploiting rape (something that is complex and causes lifelong suffering for a notable segment of the population) as a cheap plot device is, as you said, problematic. Maybe just don't. It's like disability inspo porn. Exploitative and really offensive.
posted by Lil' Blue Goat at 6:20 PM on December 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by Lil' Blue Goat at 6:20 PM on December 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
Forever Amber isn’t great literature, but the heroine is pretty tough.
posted by Ideefixe at 6:34 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 6:34 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: LBG, I agree, but given the circumstances (a young girl is abducted by pirates), I'm not sure that saying 'no they are Disney pirates and tossed her in a blanket instead of raping her' is not just going 'lol rape doesn't happen.' I welcome your thoughts but I'm not going to quit writing because you think I'm 'cheap and exploitive'. I'm trying NOT to be that, while still allowing myself to create fiction. Please try to understand that and come at me with help rather than cancellation.
I'm a published author who has written 4 books, whether you help or not, this book will be written.
posted by The otter lady at 6:34 PM on December 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm a published author who has written 4 books, whether you help or not, this book will be written.
posted by The otter lady at 6:34 PM on December 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Robin McKinley's Deerskin is a folktale-inspired story whose protagonist is a survivor of familial rape. She is massively traumatised but is able to make a gradual recovery with the help of good people and friendly dogs.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:43 PM on December 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:43 PM on December 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Michaela Coel's series I May Destroy You is semi-autobiographical and follows a writer character (based on, written by, co-directed by, and played by Coel in an absolute tour de force of talent) who gets drugged and sexually assaulted in a nightclub.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:02 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:02 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I tend to intensely dislike rape-revenge stories because they almost always make the rape central to the character's identity in a way that gives immense power to the act and takes it away from the victim - even if they devote their life to killing rapists, their life is still centered around having been raped. So, you know, try not to do that.
Mercedes Lackey used this a couple times when she was younger and didn't have any more interesting ideas - in particular, the Vows and Honor trilogy is deliberately patterned on Red Sonja, as edencosmic describes above. They're pretty fun when they're not entirely centered around rape, although they are very early Lackey and the prose is... painful in places.
Elizabeth Moon also really liked rape as a character motivator - in particular, her SF novel Once a Hero deals with it heavily as childhood trauma that informs the protagonist's character, and at least has a nod to therapy as a means of processing it. Not a revenge story, though.
Jo Walton's The King's Peace also has a warrior woman being raped to kick off the plot, although it's handled moderately well and is a genuinely emotionally complex thing. It's probably the best handling of the subject on this list, and again, while revenge is a thread of the processing, it's not really a rape-revenge story - it's much more complicated and interesting than that.
All of these are noticeably older, either because I've managed to successfully avoid books on this subject or, as I suspect, people aren't writing them as much any more because they are both problematic and usually intensely predictable. So, you know. Good luck.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:11 PM on December 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Mercedes Lackey used this a couple times when she was younger and didn't have any more interesting ideas - in particular, the Vows and Honor trilogy is deliberately patterned on Red Sonja, as edencosmic describes above. They're pretty fun when they're not entirely centered around rape, although they are very early Lackey and the prose is... painful in places.
Elizabeth Moon also really liked rape as a character motivator - in particular, her SF novel Once a Hero deals with it heavily as childhood trauma that informs the protagonist's character, and at least has a nod to therapy as a means of processing it. Not a revenge story, though.
Jo Walton's The King's Peace also has a warrior woman being raped to kick off the plot, although it's handled moderately well and is a genuinely emotionally complex thing. It's probably the best handling of the subject on this list, and again, while revenge is a thread of the processing, it's not really a rape-revenge story - it's much more complicated and interesting than that.
All of these are noticeably older, either because I've managed to successfully avoid books on this subject or, as I suspect, people aren't writing them as much any more because they are both problematic and usually intensely predictable. So, you know. Good luck.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:11 PM on December 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo.
The "sexual trauma makes a woman a stronger braver character and she uses that to get revenge!" trope is really incredibly overdone and super disgusting, by the way.
posted by erst at 7:14 PM on December 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
The "sexual trauma makes a woman a stronger braver character and she uses that to get revenge!" trope is really incredibly overdone and super disgusting, by the way.
posted by erst at 7:14 PM on December 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
Response by poster: Ok, I need to threadsit and clarify; this is one scene in a book which has nothing to do with this character's past. The thing is, our lady pirate hero has been captured. Bad guy is like 'harhar lovely lady' and she reacts with 'you can't scare me by threatening me with rape, any more than you can scare me with death; Ive survived worse."
posted by The otter lady at 7:19 PM on December 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 7:19 PM on December 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Just finished Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders trilogy (also involves fantasy pirates!) and there are two key women that suffer, struggle with and in their own way are able to process and recover from rape. I feel like it was dealt with pretty realistically, yet sensitively and I would say they both ultimately triumphed, though not necessarily through violence or revenge.
posted by platinum at 7:21 PM on December 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by platinum at 7:21 PM on December 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's likely you know these already, but just in case:
Marge Piercy, Woman on the Edge of Time has themes of this. Maybe Sherri S. Tepper's Grass.
I think it was Marge Piercy who also did an SF/time travel book that starts or is centered around about 1880-1910 in San Francisco but I can't remember which one it is, or maybe I'm mis-remembering who wrote it. I might be thinking of He, She, and It but don't hold me to that.
Also Octavia Butler.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_science_fiction might be useful.
Most of the stories I remember along these that involve revenge for SA tend to be of the non-violent but inexorably, overwhelmingly powerful kind of revenge where someone grows and vastly exceeds their abuser in real and meaningful cultural or social power, reckoning and judgement.
posted by loquacious at 7:49 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Marge Piercy, Woman on the Edge of Time has themes of this. Maybe Sherri S. Tepper's Grass.
I think it was Marge Piercy who also did an SF/time travel book that starts or is centered around about 1880-1910 in San Francisco but I can't remember which one it is, or maybe I'm mis-remembering who wrote it. I might be thinking of He, She, and It but don't hold me to that.
Also Octavia Butler.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_science_fiction might be useful.
Most of the stories I remember along these that involve revenge for SA tend to be of the non-violent but inexorably, overwhelmingly powerful kind of revenge where someone grows and vastly exceeds their abuser in real and meaningful cultural or social power, reckoning and judgement.
posted by loquacious at 7:49 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I just want examples where being raped isn't the end of a woman's life. I understand that for many it is; but I know from personal experience it doesn't have to be. I just wanted any other examples that people may have found that might be worth reading.
posted by The otter lady at 7:56 PM on December 15, 2022
posted by The otter lady at 7:56 PM on December 15, 2022
The "sexual trauma makes a woman a stronger braver character and she uses that to get revenge!" trope is really incredibly overdone and super disgusting, by the way.
I'm sorry, but I can't help but defend The otter lady because I've met them and they are a very well educated person who would know all about this minefield and I don't think it's helpful here to be judgemental about this question.
The question they asked isn't asking"is this problematic or disgusting?" and is very specific about wanting examples that don't involve what you're talking about.
posted by loquacious at 7:59 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm sorry, but I can't help but defend The otter lady because I've met them and they are a very well educated person who would know all about this minefield and I don't think it's helpful here to be judgemental about this question.
The question they asked isn't asking"is this problematic or disgusting?" and is very specific about wanting examples that don't involve what you're talking about.
posted by loquacious at 7:59 PM on December 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Best answer: > I just want examples where being raped isn't the end of a woman's life.
If you haven't read Woman on the Edge of Time... omg, you should. I'm not sure how to describe or even hint at the story and plot without spoiling everything.
Institutional abuse. Social abuse. Escape. Time travel. Utopianist redemption and growth. It's soooo good.
posted by loquacious at 8:02 PM on December 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
If you haven't read Woman on the Edge of Time... omg, you should. I'm not sure how to describe or even hint at the story and plot without spoiling everything.
Institutional abuse. Social abuse. Escape. Time travel. Utopianist redemption and growth. It's soooo good.
posted by loquacious at 8:02 PM on December 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
To address your comments, fantasy pirates is a place where rape is not a necessary plot element at all. Once you're in a fantasy world, you're able to create at will, and you do not have to adhere to the convention that there would be rape in these settings.
There is a lot of recentish critique of fantasy worlds which take rape as a given background event women have to defend against. This article from the Mary Sue lays out some arguments for this position ≤https://www.themarysue.com/historical-accuracy-sexual-assault-fantasy/≥
posted by MFZ at 8:17 PM on December 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
There is a lot of recentish critique of fantasy worlds which take rape as a given background event women have to defend against. This article from the Mary Sue lays out some arguments for this position ≤https://www.themarysue.com/historical-accuracy-sexual-assault-fantasy/≥
posted by MFZ at 8:17 PM on December 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Seconding Madeline Miller’s Circe. Circe turns men into pigs as revenge for raping her but neither the assault nor the revenge are the cornerstones of her experience.
posted by corey flood at 8:21 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by corey flood at 8:21 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Fair enough; I can lampshade the "of course no person would actually take sexual advantage of anyone!" in a sort of Pirates Of Penzance world.
But I expect you all to buy my books instead of the latest "Song oF Fire Ring Dragons Throne Games", ok?
posted by The otter lady at 8:22 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
But I expect you all to buy my books instead of the latest "Song oF Fire Ring Dragons Throne Games", ok?
posted by The otter lady at 8:22 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Promising Young Woman. Where the Crawdads Sing.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 8:29 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Ardnamurchan at 8:29 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'd love to chat about this with you if you want to PM me. I read a lot of fiction, and I've read a few recently where all sorts of awful stuff happened, but rape wasn't on the menu. There is a Goodreads shelf "Popular fantasy doing fine without rape books" which shows that there are readers for this type of work. https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/fantasy-doing-fine-without-rape
posted by MFZ at 8:43 PM on December 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by MFZ at 8:43 PM on December 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: I admit the book is already straining with "of course a woman, or an otter, can be a person!' and actually I -could- make rape as ridiculous a suggestion as, say, cannibalism or forced post-mortem Baptism-- would you guys like to see that? 😀 I'll totally do it, and call out Metafilter in the dedication!
posted by The otter lady at 8:52 PM on December 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 8:52 PM on December 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Look, the problem is, if you're setting up a rape scene in the active plot of your book, your reader has to sit through a rape scene and then, presumably, be in the head of someone who's just been raped. This is an incredibly emotionally intense thing for your reader, no matter how your character feels about it, and you need to find a way to justify it - either by digging in pretty deep to the reaction and the aftermath, or by hanging the plot on it, or both. Otherwise you're asking a ton of your reader that you're not paying for, and they're going to react... well, like this thread is reacting. It's hard. If it's an episode in a fantasy novel, it's doubly hard, because your reader is also doing a lot of work parsing all the cultural differences you've set up. Which is why it's seldom done well in SF, and you either end up with what reads as exploitative drama or Message Fiction. Or both. This has nothing to do with realism and everything to do with the reader experience. You're poking people's trauma. And you might be processing your own, too - that's totally valid! It doesn't change the fact that it's going to be incredibly hard, probably prohibitively hard, for a chunk of your audience to read. (I've read Hobbs's Liveship Trader books and they're well-done, but they are unrelentingly, exhaustingly grim )
posted by restless_nomad at 9:33 PM on December 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 9:33 PM on December 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Chanel Miller’s Know My Name has a survivor’s depth of emotional landscape that is unforgettable.
posted by childofTethys at 10:25 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by childofTethys at 10:25 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Another recommendation for Circe, as well as where the crawdads sing. They’re easy but empathic reads.
I do however caution you on writing this for one very specific reason… it’s clear from your question and the last few oddly flippant/lighthearted replies that you possibly don’t have firsthand experience with this kind of sexual violence, and I honestly don’t think it’s correct to pilfer that kind of trauma for the sake of character building. It’s also something that will make your book unreadable to many women who’ve faced sexual violence. I say this with love and respect, but also as a victim who is tired of the rape-as-plot problem in a ton of historical fiction.
Honestly, if you want to approach this topic with kindness, what you need to read is non-fiction memoirs that touch on trauma, revenge, etc.
posted by Pemberly at 10:47 PM on December 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I do however caution you on writing this for one very specific reason… it’s clear from your question and the last few oddly flippant/lighthearted replies that you possibly don’t have firsthand experience with this kind of sexual violence, and I honestly don’t think it’s correct to pilfer that kind of trauma for the sake of character building. It’s also something that will make your book unreadable to many women who’ve faced sexual violence. I say this with love and respect, but also as a victim who is tired of the rape-as-plot problem in a ton of historical fiction.
Honestly, if you want to approach this topic with kindness, what you need to read is non-fiction memoirs that touch on trauma, revenge, etc.
posted by Pemberly at 10:47 PM on December 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Keith Taylor's Bard series, books 2-4, features a character, Gudrun Blackhair, whose arc is almost exactly like your character's, and who becomes the most feared and successful pirate in her world.
She isn’t the point of view character, but she is the main love interest and her character is fully developed. I wouldn’t call Taylor a feminist, but his female characters are strong, have agency, and achieve power in their lives, and for male swords and sorcery fantasy authors of his time, I would say Taylor is in the second tier of the least bad. And his books are well plotted and vividly written.
You can read Bard II and Bard IV at the Internet Archive.
posted by jamjam at 11:35 PM on December 15, 2022
She isn’t the point of view character, but she is the main love interest and her character is fully developed. I wouldn’t call Taylor a feminist, but his female characters are strong, have agency, and achieve power in their lives, and for male swords and sorcery fantasy authors of his time, I would say Taylor is in the second tier of the least bad. And his books are well plotted and vividly written.
You can read Bard II and Bard IV at the Internet Archive.
posted by jamjam at 11:35 PM on December 15, 2022
I can't think of an example of this in fiction but if you haven't already, research into what helps people recover (community, connecting with a sense of purpose) might be helpful? Episode 52 of the podcast live like the world is dying talks about mental health first aid responses to trauma in a way that might open up some angles on this.
posted by mosswinter at 1:15 AM on December 16, 2022
posted by mosswinter at 1:15 AM on December 16, 2022
Fiction but based on a true experience: Winnie M. Li's Dark Chapter
posted by moiraine at 2:10 AM on December 16, 2022
posted by moiraine at 2:10 AM on December 16, 2022
Hey, glad you are writing and thinking. All this is feedback for that.
I just want examples where being raped isn't the end of a woman's life. I understand that for many it is
Really? Like…1 in 4 women have been assaulted. And I would say…carrying a trauma load can be diminishing and difficult and gosh-darn hard, and also full of strength and laughter and light. People respond lots of ways. I would say while being raped puts women at risk for death from suicide or addiction (rum?), it’s actually rarely the end of a woman’s life. That’s why women aren’t believed. It’s also why they don’t believe themselves. If you go to work the next day, did it really happen? #MeToo
This is what sort of bothers me about a lot of fantasy lit. Like, being abducted into piratehood seems pretty traumatic whether you’re a boy or a girl, and there’s a lot of rum and rope accidents and drownings and war and pillaging and scurvey and loss of limbs and eyes. People who run off and become pirates may have been beaten as a child or subject to intergenerational poverty. But, which character on the ship is likely to represent Strength After Adversity? The raped woman. Why? Because you have a stereotype available. Also because people can be raped and not die, which helps the plot. Sometimes rape is a stand in for world building, like it’s a way to signal your world is Realistic. This Reddit thread goes into that.
To me these are perhaps as much the vestiges of seeing a woman after assault as damaged goods — a morality play — as an exploration of recovery. It’s at least a flip on it. But it’s no less of a binary - strong/weak vs. Pure/impure.
For me, a trained badass pirate who probably has had like 80 close encounters with drowning and death, who has faced down sea battles, who maybe killed her first naval officer with a dagger at 11, who reveals her assault during a threat to her life…might not be credible. I suspect you are a way better writer than that and that’s why you’re nosing around looking for nuance, and go you.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:46 AM on December 16, 2022 [18 favorites]
I just want examples where being raped isn't the end of a woman's life. I understand that for many it is
Really? Like…1 in 4 women have been assaulted. And I would say…carrying a trauma load can be diminishing and difficult and gosh-darn hard, and also full of strength and laughter and light. People respond lots of ways. I would say while being raped puts women at risk for death from suicide or addiction (rum?), it’s actually rarely the end of a woman’s life. That’s why women aren’t believed. It’s also why they don’t believe themselves. If you go to work the next day, did it really happen? #MeToo
This is what sort of bothers me about a lot of fantasy lit. Like, being abducted into piratehood seems pretty traumatic whether you’re a boy or a girl, and there’s a lot of rum and rope accidents and drownings and war and pillaging and scurvey and loss of limbs and eyes. People who run off and become pirates may have been beaten as a child or subject to intergenerational poverty. But, which character on the ship is likely to represent Strength After Adversity? The raped woman. Why? Because you have a stereotype available. Also because people can be raped and not die, which helps the plot. Sometimes rape is a stand in for world building, like it’s a way to signal your world is Realistic. This Reddit thread goes into that.
To me these are perhaps as much the vestiges of seeing a woman after assault as damaged goods — a morality play — as an exploration of recovery. It’s at least a flip on it. But it’s no less of a binary - strong/weak vs. Pure/impure.
For me, a trained badass pirate who probably has had like 80 close encounters with drowning and death, who has faced down sea battles, who maybe killed her first naval officer with a dagger at 11, who reveals her assault during a threat to her life…might not be credible. I suspect you are a way better writer than that and that’s why you’re nosing around looking for nuance, and go you.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:46 AM on December 16, 2022 [18 favorites]
Many of the examples I think of have been mentioned here. Others to consider:
Clan of the Cave Bear and its sequels have been roundly pilloried over the years for many reasons, but I do think there's still a lot of good stuff there in terms of Auel's treatment of Ayla's experience, cognition, and survival.
Jessica Jones, on the page and on the screen. Not unlike Lisbeth Salander in The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, she is human/flawed and lives a messy life.
All things Outlander. Gabaldon is one of the best-selling living writers of fantasy novels, at least in the U.S., and she does not shy away from rape as an historical reality and its long-term effects on survivors.
More generally, I think the discussion here reflects site biases, as well as the tendency to have strong feelings about this topic and how it should be depicted in art of any kind, and in particular that there are wrong ways to do it. Different people have different experiences and wishes, and good on you for your effort to capture well another angle on an all-too-common form of violence.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:17 AM on December 16, 2022
Clan of the Cave Bear and its sequels have been roundly pilloried over the years for many reasons, but I do think there's still a lot of good stuff there in terms of Auel's treatment of Ayla's experience, cognition, and survival.
Jessica Jones, on the page and on the screen. Not unlike Lisbeth Salander in The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, she is human/flawed and lives a messy life.
All things Outlander. Gabaldon is one of the best-selling living writers of fantasy novels, at least in the U.S., and she does not shy away from rape as an historical reality and its long-term effects on survivors.
More generally, I think the discussion here reflects site biases, as well as the tendency to have strong feelings about this topic and how it should be depicted in art of any kind, and in particular that there are wrong ways to do it. Different people have different experiences and wishes, and good on you for your effort to capture well another angle on an all-too-common form of violence.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:17 AM on December 16, 2022
You should consider expanding your sense of the trauma the girl goes through. Being held captive on a pirate ship is an extended trauma, one that presumably continues for days or weeks. The girl is likely raped multiple times by different people in different ways, and might also be in constant fear of her life and safety. This is different "being raped".
I don't have a specific example of stories in which a woman survives such horrors and comes out strong, but I would start by looking at slave narratives, or narratives that involve people who were victims of trafficking, or people imprisoned. Rape is one component of a larger trauma that includes physical violence, loss of agency, and isolation from all community support.
(Also -- I am not a fan of the rape in The Diamond Age. It came across to me as a cheap shot written by someone who hadn't really thought at all about the trauma induced by rape. Don't emulate that.)
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:32 AM on December 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't have a specific example of stories in which a woman survives such horrors and comes out strong, but I would start by looking at slave narratives, or narratives that involve people who were victims of trafficking, or people imprisoned. Rape is one component of a larger trauma that includes physical violence, loss of agency, and isolation from all community support.
(Also -- I am not a fan of the rape in The Diamond Age. It came across to me as a cheap shot written by someone who hadn't really thought at all about the trauma induced by rape. Don't emulate that.)
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:32 AM on December 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking about this all day, and here is the thing.
Is it unrealistic for a character in those circumstances not to have been raped? Probably. But it is also realistic for people in those circumstances to die of cholera or scurvy, or have horrible personal hygiene, or any of a number of things that writers gloss over because, well, frankly, people don't want to read about that. And yet sexual assault - something a huge number of people of all genders go through - is the thing that apparently decides whether something or not is realistic. Frankly, I call bullshit.
Is sexual assault as character development in and of itself a bad thing? Not necessarily. Has it been done so. many. fucking. times (and often badly) that it's pretty much a cliche at this point? Absolutely. Frankly, OP, that you're asking this question doesn't suggest to me you have the range for this - and I mean this kindly. I don't have the range to write a new and nuanced version of the sexual assault as character development plotline, and nor do the vast majority of authors. (To be clear, I am NOT saying that only survivors of a trauma get to tell stories about it, or that survivors have to talk about their trauma to be 'allowed' to do so. I am saying that it is a subject that needs to be handled in a way that not many people can do well and too many people do badly.)
Your character can have gone through a number of other things that build her character - the loss of her home and family, injuries she sustained, loss or betrayal by loved ones - that aren't sexual assault. It's so fucking tiring to open a book and see that yep, the person who looks like me has had this horrible thing happen to her when the guys get to be bad-asses without similar explanation. Why does Luke Skywalker or Han Solo or get to do cool shit without being subjected to that kind of violation?
TL;DR: rape as character development is an old, tired cliche. Your characters and your future readers deserve better. Oh, and you might be interested in Hugo winner Seanan McGuire's thoughts on the subject.
posted by Tamanna at 7:15 AM on December 16, 2022 [12 favorites]
Is it unrealistic for a character in those circumstances not to have been raped? Probably. But it is also realistic for people in those circumstances to die of cholera or scurvy, or have horrible personal hygiene, or any of a number of things that writers gloss over because, well, frankly, people don't want to read about that. And yet sexual assault - something a huge number of people of all genders go through - is the thing that apparently decides whether something or not is realistic. Frankly, I call bullshit.
Is sexual assault as character development in and of itself a bad thing? Not necessarily. Has it been done so. many. fucking. times (and often badly) that it's pretty much a cliche at this point? Absolutely. Frankly, OP, that you're asking this question doesn't suggest to me you have the range for this - and I mean this kindly. I don't have the range to write a new and nuanced version of the sexual assault as character development plotline, and nor do the vast majority of authors. (To be clear, I am NOT saying that only survivors of a trauma get to tell stories about it, or that survivors have to talk about their trauma to be 'allowed' to do so. I am saying that it is a subject that needs to be handled in a way that not many people can do well and too many people do badly.)
Your character can have gone through a number of other things that build her character - the loss of her home and family, injuries she sustained, loss or betrayal by loved ones - that aren't sexual assault. It's so fucking tiring to open a book and see that yep, the person who looks like me has had this horrible thing happen to her when the guys get to be bad-asses without similar explanation. Why does Luke Skywalker or Han Solo or
TL;DR: rape as character development is an old, tired cliche. Your characters and your future readers deserve better. Oh, and you might be interested in Hugo winner Seanan McGuire's thoughts on the subject.
posted by Tamanna at 7:15 AM on December 16, 2022 [12 favorites]
The otter lady, I hope you're still here. I can see that you're getting quite defensive,
I think one of the reasons these discussions get so heated is not just the fact that we're talking about a type of trauma that many people have experienced, specifically as a form of gendered violence - but also that reactions to how rape is portrayed in fiction are very individual. You can probably write a rape backstory that most people here would consider "bad," but there would be far less agreement on what would make such a backstory "good."
There just is no good way to do it.
To start, you are automatically cleaving off the readers who don't want there to be any rape at all. You've already been given some arguments for this point of view. But all right, let's say that you've already decided that the type of story that you want to write will include it. Now you have choices about how to include it, and every choice will alienate some of your readers, regardless of how well-intentioned and sensitive you are. Because there's just no "right" way to portray rape.
I think that the best you can do is to listen to a variety of people with and understand the issues that they have with different types of portrayals. (Including people who just say "don't include rape.") Then make very well-considered choices.
So, I'm going to tell you my preferences as a reader. This is not an authoritative statement on the only non-problematic way to write about rape, but just as another viewpoint to consider.
I have problems with the way rape is used as a plot device in a lot of stories, but I don't think that rape should never be a part of the world or someone's backstory. I think it depends on what type of story you're writing, its tone, and a lot of other factors. In some cases I would question its absence, e.g. if you were writing a story about the horrors of war.
(NB: There is a difference from it being mentioned vs. explicitly depicted. Please don't read this as I would expect an explicit depiction of rape. I've gotten the impression from your post that you aren't planning an actual rape scene, but to include rape in her backstory.)
I don't know much about your story, but from the genre description and how you describe your character, it seems like it might lean more towards an adventure fantasy ("badass lady pirate") than a grim exploration of sea life and trauma in a fantasy setting. I agree with previous commenters that including rape is not necessary for "realism" here.
All that said, if you're determined:
I just want examples where being raped isn't the end of a woman's life. I understand that for many it is
No one is saying that rape is the end of a woman's life. Many of us would probably find that statement offensive.
Personally, I've reached the point where I'm very tired of rape revenge stories. I don't want it to be a character-defining event. I don't want it to end the character's life, and I don't want it to be what motivates the character afterward. We have so many of those types of stories that it doesn't feel empowering at all; rather, it feels oppressive, like society can only imagine a "strong female character" through the lens of sexual assault committed against her - through the lens of gendered violence.
If you included rape in her backstory, I would prefer that you remain vague about it - perhaps alluding to it, if it added something meaningful, but not making it a driving motivation. I would prefer, winnie the proust suggested, if you "expand[ed] your sense of the trauma the girl goes through." I would prefer if you made the gestalt of her traumatic backstory the thing she overcame, rather than focusing specifically on the sexual assault.
This means I can't give you an example of a book that does this well, because it's really about not doing something.
I do believe there is a place for exploring the consequences of rape for a character, but books that I think have done that well are really about trauma in a way that really dictates their tone and genre. And they're not books that I especially like, to be honest; they're just not for me.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:50 AM on December 16, 2022 [12 favorites]
I think one of the reasons these discussions get so heated is not just the fact that we're talking about a type of trauma that many people have experienced, specifically as a form of gendered violence - but also that reactions to how rape is portrayed in fiction are very individual. You can probably write a rape backstory that most people here would consider "bad," but there would be far less agreement on what would make such a backstory "good."
There just is no good way to do it.
To start, you are automatically cleaving off the readers who don't want there to be any rape at all. You've already been given some arguments for this point of view. But all right, let's say that you've already decided that the type of story that you want to write will include it. Now you have choices about how to include it, and every choice will alienate some of your readers, regardless of how well-intentioned and sensitive you are. Because there's just no "right" way to portray rape.
I think that the best you can do is to listen to a variety of people with and understand the issues that they have with different types of portrayals. (Including people who just say "don't include rape.") Then make very well-considered choices.
So, I'm going to tell you my preferences as a reader. This is not an authoritative statement on the only non-problematic way to write about rape, but just as another viewpoint to consider.
I have problems with the way rape is used as a plot device in a lot of stories, but I don't think that rape should never be a part of the world or someone's backstory. I think it depends on what type of story you're writing, its tone, and a lot of other factors. In some cases I would question its absence, e.g. if you were writing a story about the horrors of war.
(NB: There is a difference from it being mentioned vs. explicitly depicted. Please don't read this as I would expect an explicit depiction of rape. I've gotten the impression from your post that you aren't planning an actual rape scene, but to include rape in her backstory.)
I don't know much about your story, but from the genre description and how you describe your character, it seems like it might lean more towards an adventure fantasy ("badass lady pirate") than a grim exploration of sea life and trauma in a fantasy setting. I agree with previous commenters that including rape is not necessary for "realism" here.
All that said, if you're determined:
I just want examples where being raped isn't the end of a woman's life. I understand that for many it is
No one is saying that rape is the end of a woman's life. Many of us would probably find that statement offensive.
Personally, I've reached the point where I'm very tired of rape revenge stories. I don't want it to be a character-defining event. I don't want it to end the character's life, and I don't want it to be what motivates the character afterward. We have so many of those types of stories that it doesn't feel empowering at all; rather, it feels oppressive, like society can only imagine a "strong female character" through the lens of sexual assault committed against her - through the lens of gendered violence.
If you included rape in her backstory, I would prefer that you remain vague about it - perhaps alluding to it, if it added something meaningful, but not making it a driving motivation. I would prefer, winnie the proust suggested, if you "expand[ed] your sense of the trauma the girl goes through." I would prefer if you made the gestalt of her traumatic backstory the thing she overcame, rather than focusing specifically on the sexual assault.
This means I can't give you an example of a book that does this well, because it's really about not doing something.
I do believe there is a place for exploring the consequences of rape for a character, but books that I think have done that well are really about trauma in a way that really dictates their tone and genre. And they're not books that I especially like, to be honest; they're just not for me.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:50 AM on December 16, 2022 [12 favorites]
I just want examples where being raped isn't the end of a woman's life.
I mean, I feel like living in the world as a woman among women I experience this all the time. I'm not sure I know anyone who hasn't experienced some form of sexual assault, ranging from harrassment and "casual" (ugh) groping to sustained abuse and violent assault. Not to be glib but #MeToo and all.
I read fiction all the time and I probably make my own uninformed decisions about what the women in the books have endured, whether said woman is a pirate captive in a fantasy novel or, like, Bertha Rochester or literally any woman/girl in an arranged marriage in literature. Unless the story is about the trauma and the specifically the processing of the trauma (and a lot of those stories are not for me) I don't know how necessary I think it is to use a rape as a plot point.
On preview, what warriorqueen said.
posted by thivaia at 8:35 AM on December 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I mean, I feel like living in the world as a woman among women I experience this all the time. I'm not sure I know anyone who hasn't experienced some form of sexual assault, ranging from harrassment and "casual" (ugh) groping to sustained abuse and violent assault. Not to be glib but #MeToo and all.
I read fiction all the time and I probably make my own uninformed decisions about what the women in the books have endured, whether said woman is a pirate captive in a fantasy novel or, like, Bertha Rochester or literally any woman/girl in an arranged marriage in literature. Unless the story is about the trauma and the specifically the processing of the trauma (and a lot of those stories are not for me) I don't know how necessary I think it is to use a rape as a plot point.
On preview, what warriorqueen said.
posted by thivaia at 8:35 AM on December 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Thought experiment: do you want to illustrate that “being raped isn’t the end of a woman’s life” or “[Something Really Bad] isn’t the end of a woman’s life”? One of my objections to rape as a plot device is it’s lazy and predictable. As a consumer of media, I almost expect it when given enough cues. I’m leaving out examples to avoid sounding glib but if you know, you know.
I feel like the argument that it might be realistic in the setting is also lazy. You’re writing fiction? Why does that part need to be realistic? I remember that being an argument with rape on Game of Thrones. There’s a dragon on this show but the idea of a woman not being raped is unrealistic? At worst, putting it in your writing will re-traumatize survivors and alienate others and at best, …?
posted by kat518 at 8:57 AM on December 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
I feel like the argument that it might be realistic in the setting is also lazy. You’re writing fiction? Why does that part need to be realistic? I remember that being an argument with rape on Game of Thrones. There’s a dragon on this show but the idea of a woman not being raped is unrealistic? At worst, putting it in your writing will re-traumatize survivors and alienate others and at best, …?
posted by kat518 at 8:57 AM on December 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
The upcoming film Women Talking (a very likely Oscar contender in multiple categories) is based on Miriam Toews' novel of the same name and adapted by Sarah Polley, dealing with the aftermath of a real-life and horrifying culture of rape in a Mennonite colony in the mid-2000s. It's a work of fiction set against the backdrop of a real-life atrocity.
And - not fiction but - Polley's excellent memoir Run Towards the Danger also details a sexual assault from her own life, with a thoughtful and sensitive analysis of how it affected her and how victims behave.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:32 AM on December 16, 2022
And - not fiction but - Polley's excellent memoir Run Towards the Danger also details a sexual assault from her own life, with a thoughtful and sensitive analysis of how it affected her and how victims behave.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:32 AM on December 16, 2022
>I just want examples where being raped isn't the end of a woman's life.
is very different from
>she not only survives but becomes stronger, and gets revenge.
The former can be fine, but the latter is making rape central to her life and her story which (even if some people think it's badass) is the opposite of empowering. Women who have been raped are all around you. None of us have made it our life's mission to get revenge on our rapist: if we did, that would not be a triumph in terms of most of our personal lives. In Trauma and Recovery, Judith Herman talks about how healing from rape is only complete when the fact that we were raped becomes boring: we no longer have much emotional investment in this one event in our past as opposed to becoming highly emotionally activated by the thought, and we treat memories of the rape just like any other ordinary bad memory rather than still being driven by it. So even if your heroine gets revenge, I submit to you that this is not evidence of her triumph. Triumph would be when, years after getting revenge, she is completely uninterested in deriving any sense of accomplishment from her revenge, because there's so much else that she's done which is more worthwhile, more inspiring, more affirming to her.
I really like the idea of showing her triumph via simply being believed and helped and granted justice when she talks about her rape to others in the community. Defeating the idea that a rape victim must overcome it all alone is highly empowering. The notion that a community can be expected to support you and lift you up and deliver justice is highly empowering.
An example of all the ideas I'm talking about is done really well in Mad Max: Fury Road. All of the wives in that movie, Furiosa included, are clearly rape victims. But their story is not about their rape. None of them even mentions being raped, IIRC. They don't set out to get revenge for getting raped. They kill their rapist only because he follows them and tries to abduct them again. Otherwise they would have been perfectly triumphant in finding/using water, in getting to the Green Place, or in finding community with one another - a community that supports one another and lifts one another up, a community that wouldn't dream of disbelieving their story of trauma (if they were to tell it). The villains in Mad Max: Fury Road are not Disney villains! There was plenty of rape, there were rape babies, there was one woman on screen carrying a rape pregnancy. But the story was not about rape. The women were so much more than their trauma. THAT is empowering.
posted by MiraK at 10:09 AM on December 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
is very different from
>she not only survives but becomes stronger, and gets revenge.
The former can be fine, but the latter is making rape central to her life and her story which (even if some people think it's badass) is the opposite of empowering. Women who have been raped are all around you. None of us have made it our life's mission to get revenge on our rapist: if we did, that would not be a triumph in terms of most of our personal lives. In Trauma and Recovery, Judith Herman talks about how healing from rape is only complete when the fact that we were raped becomes boring: we no longer have much emotional investment in this one event in our past as opposed to becoming highly emotionally activated by the thought, and we treat memories of the rape just like any other ordinary bad memory rather than still being driven by it. So even if your heroine gets revenge, I submit to you that this is not evidence of her triumph. Triumph would be when, years after getting revenge, she is completely uninterested in deriving any sense of accomplishment from her revenge, because there's so much else that she's done which is more worthwhile, more inspiring, more affirming to her.
I really like the idea of showing her triumph via simply being believed and helped and granted justice when she talks about her rape to others in the community. Defeating the idea that a rape victim must overcome it all alone is highly empowering. The notion that a community can be expected to support you and lift you up and deliver justice is highly empowering.
An example of all the ideas I'm talking about is done really well in Mad Max: Fury Road. All of the wives in that movie, Furiosa included, are clearly rape victims. But their story is not about their rape. None of them even mentions being raped, IIRC. They don't set out to get revenge for getting raped. They kill their rapist only because he follows them and tries to abduct them again. Otherwise they would have been perfectly triumphant in finding/using water, in getting to the Green Place, or in finding community with one another - a community that supports one another and lifts one another up, a community that wouldn't dream of disbelieving their story of trauma (if they were to tell it). The villains in Mad Max: Fury Road are not Disney villains! There was plenty of rape, there were rape babies, there was one woman on screen carrying a rape pregnancy. But the story was not about rape. The women were so much more than their trauma. THAT is empowering.
posted by MiraK at 10:09 AM on December 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
Innuendo Studios has a fantastic series of video essays about Mad Max: Fury Road which features an deep-dive discussion of why its handling of rape is so fabulous.
posted by MiraK at 10:28 AM on December 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 10:28 AM on December 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: This is all good stuff and I agree with a lot of it! I never intended to write anything graphic or even visible (it would have been just a mention)
...but honestly, sincerely no sarcasm, I actually really like the idea that in MY fantasy world, rape is absolutely rare and absolutely horrible, and it just... Doesn't happen because it's too far for even the bad guys. Like cannibalism; someone would have to be deeply screwed up to even consider it, and it doesn't happen (or at least, it won't in anything I write in that setting).
I agree with whoever said that trying to write "good" rape reference (gak, even looking at that makes me cringe, sorry) is not within my capabilities nor is it my story to tell. I am much better off just legit doing this as a PG13 world, which... I actually really like the idea of, being a fan of Pratchett (who never brought up rape at all, iirc)
Thanks for the feedback, I'm sorry for the tactlessness and tone and poor choices of words, I have learned a lot and from this I take the lesson that 'if you have to start apologizing for the post as you're posting, do not post it!', among other things.
posted by The otter lady at 11:17 AM on December 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
...but honestly, sincerely no sarcasm, I actually really like the idea that in MY fantasy world, rape is absolutely rare and absolutely horrible, and it just... Doesn't happen because it's too far for even the bad guys. Like cannibalism; someone would have to be deeply screwed up to even consider it, and it doesn't happen (or at least, it won't in anything I write in that setting).
I agree with whoever said that trying to write "good" rape reference (gak, even looking at that makes me cringe, sorry) is not within my capabilities nor is it my story to tell. I am much better off just legit doing this as a PG13 world, which... I actually really like the idea of, being a fan of Pratchett (who never brought up rape at all, iirc)
Thanks for the feedback, I'm sorry for the tactlessness and tone and poor choices of words, I have learned a lot and from this I take the lesson that 'if you have to start apologizing for the post as you're posting, do not post it!', among other things.
posted by The otter lady at 11:17 AM on December 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
Can't wait to read it when it comes out. :)
posted by warriorqueen at 11:26 AM on December 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by warriorqueen at 11:26 AM on December 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
As Mirak says, and as you kind of say, you don't need to state that it happened, because of course it's happened. Most if not all of the cabin boys (and thus grown men pirates) will also have had it happen to them. There probably isn't in that universe, even necessarily a concept of it as a big deal (except of course with the individual), it just is. Do you know what I mean? I also have reallllly been enjoying the recent trend of getting through whole books and films without being confronted with the victimisation of women. Aaaaaanyhoo:
In the show Lost, Kate Austin is a pretty good example of "nothing can hurt me anymore" and also kills her abusive father.
In the movie Sucker Punch most of the protagonists are girls who have been/are being SAed and their attempts to escape, violently, a mental asylum. I don't know if this is a "do it like this" or "don't do it like this" example. Eye of the beholder and all that. Choice quotes from film-critics available on the wiki page.
posted by Iteki at 11:27 AM on December 16, 2022
In the show Lost, Kate Austin is a pretty good example of "nothing can hurt me anymore" and also kills her abusive father.
In the movie Sucker Punch most of the protagonists are girls who have been/are being SAed and their attempts to escape, violently, a mental asylum. I don't know if this is a "do it like this" or "don't do it like this" example. Eye of the beholder and all that. Choice quotes from film-critics available on the wiki page.
posted by Iteki at 11:27 AM on December 16, 2022
I watched "The English" over the weekend. I can recommend it and I think it managed to avoid falling into many of the traps that people here have mentioned.
posted by Ned G at 5:13 AM on December 19, 2022
posted by Ned G at 5:13 AM on December 19, 2022
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by xedrik at 4:18 PM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]