I Don't Know If I'm Imagining Things, Or If This Is Really Happening.

November 26, 2021 11:59 AM

Lately, like the last 4-5 years or so, I, a 54 year old woman, have seen a change in the way a noticeable amount of men treat me. I know, that should come as no surprise, but the intensity of their coldness and contempt is unnerving me. Details to follow.

These are just random men that I haven't exchanged much more than a few words with. For example, the guy who works the front desk at a hotel I stay at fairly often, my hairstylist, stuff like that. I know it might seem like you would have longer conversations with your hairstylist, but honestly this guy does all the talking, and I mostly just nod and say, "Oh" or "Really?" or "That's great/weird/amazing," at the appropriate intervals.

I don't think I've ever done anything to really annoy these people. I'm a good tipper I think, usually tip 40% for most things, especially now during covid. I don't leave big messes in the hotel rooms or have parties. I'm quiet and clean when I stay there. As far as I know I don't smell bad, speak really loudly, chew gum, wear perfume or other scented things, make any unreasonable asks of people or even any asks really, I'm a pretty independent person.

Here's an example of the type of thing I'm talking about.

I was shopping in a garden center. The shopping wagons they had available were all a little old and rickety, but I picked the least rickety one I could, and went and did my shopping. I had to purchase two fairly large trees which probably weighed about 50lbs a piece. I loaded them onto my cart by myself, and went to the check out. On the way out the door, my rickety wagon caught on something and tipped over the curb. My trees fell off and rolled into the street (no traffic was coming thank goodness). I quickly moved my wagon out of the way of the male customer coming through the door behind me. I wasn't really paying any attention to him, just about to start reloading my trees, but he stopped and made a big point of catching my eye before sneering, "Great driving," in a really nasty voice. I just laughed and said, "You should see me on the road!" in what I thought was an obviously jokey way. He just stared at me and paused there watching me load the trees back up, long enough that I felt a bit threatened. As far as I know this was the first time I'd encountered him. I certainly hadn't noticed him in the store when I was shopping.

I know that none of you internet strangers can begin to guess what might motivate these men to be so mean for what, to me, seems like no reason at all. I mean who knows, maybe I ran over the guy's foot in the nursery, and didn't see him because of the two big trees I was dragging around. It could all be coincidence. I just wonder if other women have experienced this change in aggression levels. To me it seems like it might be because of my age, but maybe its the times we're living in. Or maybe its all in my head.

Anyone feel similar? Have similar experiences?

posted by anonymous to Human Relations (17 answers total)

Yes. I'm 48. This has definitely begun happening to me. Men just looking right through me as if I were invisible, being treated as if I'm totally incompetent even in areas where I have actual expertise, etc. In medicine, there's been some useful articles over the years on "Jennifer fever" -- the idea that young attractive women physicians and researchers are seen as having potential, while their senior female colleagues are ignored. I was introduced to this idea when I was a young female researcher in an academic medical center, and (hah) did not at first understand how it applied to me. But now I do, hah.

It definitely goes beyond any particular field and is visible in most aspects of my life now.
posted by shadygrove at 12:07 PM on November 26, 2021 [15 favorites]

I think shadygrove is talking about ignoring, but anonymous is talking about actual hostility. Both are interesting, but the question seems to be about the latter.
posted by amtho at 12:11 PM on November 26, 2021 [10 favorites]

That guy was a random fucking asshole. I’m your age, no great beauty but don’t stand out in any bad way, and haven’t really noticed a change in the way men treat me specifically, although obviously a lot of assholes are feeling emboldened to act out these days. I just think they’re doing it to everyone, not me in particular. Maybe I’m an outlier for some reason. I have no idea, can only share my own experience. And frankly if anyone seems more hostile toward the opposite sex it’s probably me, although the real reason for that is that the opposite sex around here is mostly a bunch of hyper-religious anti-maskers. I probably seethe hostility toward them and they might be posting in some other forum wondering why women are treating them differently. Ha.

But also in my own experience, maybe yours too: Hormones are a trip right now, my body is changing is ways that are out of my control, and I’m really having to evaluate my relationship with my appearance and how I use it to navigate the world. It’s complicated. So, probably no help, but that’s how it’s going for me.
posted by HotToddy at 12:18 PM on November 26, 2021 [24 favorites]

55 year old female here. I've had more hostile encounters with women than men. I've also been ignored by both sexes (I work retail. I've been in my department for over 25 years. I've had people walk past me, to find a male coworker, to ask a question I could have easily answered. It's even funnier when said male coworker has to come back, with said customer trailing behind, and ask me for the answer.)

Women these days, at least in my experience, are snappier and love to demean or belittle me and I can't figure out why. I feel like it's more a sign of the times, rather than my age. Hostility seems to be free ranging all over these days.
posted by annieb at 12:40 PM on November 26, 2021 [8 favorites]

I'm not a woman. But I feel qualified to make this observation, as a fellow traveler.

Hot Toddy nailed it right out of the gate. The guy is a total jerk. (Stronger language is what really belongs in place of "total jerk" but this is an attempt at being polite.) The guy is a jerk. Anyone who barks at someone who has had something happen like your trees falling is a dope. The fact that he didn't help you reload them "totally" puts him in the jerk domain.
posted by dancestoblue at 12:49 PM on November 26, 2021 [9 favorites]

I am a lady a bit younger than you (nearly 40) so am not your specific age, but I wanted to share my theory, that the pandemic has really changed interactions with strangers and made them much more awkward and hostile, and this may be happening in conjunction with the (documented and real) age and gender discrimination that women do experience with age.

I live in an area that has taken the pandemic seriously and many people have curtailed their activities, and are slowly coming out of that long period of isolation. Many people have lost social skills, including me (at the very few parties I have attended since being vaccinated HOO BOY there is some bizarre "small talk" happening), PLUS I am feeling hyper sensitive/vulnerable in social scenarios because I have been told by experts for nearly two years that Other Humans Are Dangerous and Keep Your Distance and Stay Home. (Oh plus Trump! Yeah! That too!) So when I do see real people my kneejerk reaction is to see them as "potentially scary obstacles to evade" rather than just folks.

Earlier today I was hiking and an older man I passed made some brief conversation and then harumphed rudely when I gave a less than satisfactory answer. I'm guessing his harumphing was intensified by the pandemic (both lack of social skills and maybe more negative feelings he was carrying around). I have so many fewer social interactions these days, so I'm hyper aware of people's facial expressions, and I spend more mental and emotional energy on passing interactions, so his weird sneer really bummed me out. The combination of all those things made the brief interaction seem much more meaningful to me than pre-panny when I would have just been like, "Did a hike today, ran into a grumpy man, that was weird, oh well onto happy hour!" and moved on.

Anyway I'm sorry that happened to you, that garden center guy sounds like a total f'ing piece of dung especially on top of you having to deal with your trees rolling out into the street!
posted by rogerroger at 12:52 PM on November 26, 2021 [28 favorites]

There was a recent thread on the front page regarding general increased public hostility which I read with great horror; perhaps others' stories or the accompanying article will resonate.
posted by youarenothere at 12:52 PM on November 26, 2021 [11 favorites]

I have met lots of jerks. When I was young and hot these jerks were focused on my looks and attempting to connect with me in some way. Took me longer to figure out they were a jerk.

Now these jerks aren't influenced by their interest in my physical appearance and I get the real them.

I'm thankful people reveal themselves much more quickly as I do not want to waste a second in a social interaction with some horrible person.
posted by beccaj at 1:05 PM on November 26, 2021 [37 favorites]

OP says the last four or five years, so this seems to predate the pandemic.

I'm 62 and have been invisible for a long time (being fat speeds it up), but I can only think of one instance of the kind of overt hostility you describe, and that was probably four or five years ago and was from a referee at a fencing tournament where I was a volunteer (when he was next to me at dinner that evening and madly flirting with a lovely young woman from my club, I was tempted to say something about it, but did not). Oh - and one man at the cancer center, but he was angry at the staff anyway, and I was trying to just be generally supportive, and he was not having it. So that may have been my fault for getting involved.

There are lots of reports of people being increasingly awful to retail employees and especially airline employees probably due to the pandemic. The guy you saw was an asshole, but we don't know if he was always an asshole or if it's pandemic related. I'm a bit flummoxed that this predates the pandemic for you though. I don't have an explanation for it. I'm sorry it's happening.
posted by FencingGal at 1:07 PM on November 26, 2021 [4 favorites]

So, some of this is def jerks and increased hostility overall.

Some of it is getting older, which is a phenomenon that happens with men as well.
posted by slkinsey at 1:38 PM on November 26, 2021

I'm your age, and FWIW I have definitely noticed that as I've gotten older, men behave much more coldly with me than they used to.

It's not waning attractiveness though, it's waning deference. I've tested it. When I behave like an intern (asking questions, listening intently, writing down what they say), men like me just as much as they ever did. When I don't, they don't.

That's mostly in a work-acquaintance context though, so I don't know how applicable it is to what you're experiencing. And you sound like you are generally humoring the men you're interacting with, which they should respond well to. So maybe it's the pandemic.

Either way, I want to affirm that men being jerks to older women is definitely a thing.
posted by Susan PG at 1:52 PM on November 26, 2021 [42 favorites]

I was definitely not just talking about being ignored, just to be clear. I was talking about a whole range of behaviors from being ignored up to open hostility.
posted by shadygrove at 4:00 PM on November 26, 2021 [6 favorites]

The less girlish you look/act, the less you benefit from the benevolence some pricks unconsciously extend to younger women (some combo of “don’t hit/be mean to girls” socialization combined with the “maybe I’ll get laid” instinct.)

Of course I can’t prove it but pandemic or no, I bet the garden enter prick would’ve helped a 22 year old, or at the very least not insulted her.
posted by kapers at 6:29 PM on November 26, 2021 [10 favorites]

Post-menopausal women have low social status. We are often treated as invisible, lacking in value. Yes, it does make my blood boil.
posted by theora55 at 8:17 PM on November 26, 2021 [10 favorites]

I am around your age and have noticed this as well, although not generally directed at me personally. The disparagement/invisibility of older women is definitely a documented Thing, but I also think that the widespread "Karen" meme* is empowering a certain type of nasty behaviour. Some men who were already hostile to women now know they can probably get away with it and might even be thought of as edgy and/or cool rather than just ageist misogynists.

*Of course, many of these "Karens" do deserve to be called out for legit horrible behaviour, but I think this has been an unintended consequence of this shift in the zeitgeist.
posted by rpfields at 10:36 PM on November 26, 2021 [10 favorites]

Your garden center anecdote sounds very similar to an unpleasant interaction my mother had recently. As an older woman of color in the USA who speaks English with an accent, experiencing some level of negative attention is nothing new to her, but over the past five years or so I have noticed a marked uptick in these kind of incidents.

Based on your account, I would guess that you did absolutely nothing to provoke this behavior. I personally believe that the severity and frequency of this kind of asshole behavior has indeed been on the rise and that it is not simply that you are getting older and/or noticing this kind of thing more frequently.
posted by mustard seeds at 4:24 PM on November 28, 2021 [2 favorites]

Five years would be since 2017. At the risk of stating the obvious, there was an election in the US in late 2016, and it really did shift how men felt comfortable treating women in public. Where a seasoned woman may have done the political equivalent of driving over a bump and her garden center trees falling off the wagon, the opposition to her by male candidates on either side was "corruption" and "lock her up."
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 5:14 AM on November 29, 2021 [6 favorites]