Help me stop being blinded by positives
July 15, 2013 3:42 AM Subscribe
Nearly 8 months after leaving a bad marriage and (eventually) initiating a divorce, I'm looking to move on with my life. Not necessarily by dating just yet - I've still got a lot to sort through before I'd inflict myself on anyone - but eventually. One of the things that I need to work on is my tendency to see the positives in any situation, which often leads me to ignore the negatives. How can I train myself to find a better balance between the positives and negatives?
To be clear up front, I love that I can see the positives in any situation. It helps give me a do-or-die attitude that has made me very successful at what I do; I don't like to give up. But you can't apply the same logic to relationships as you can to forging your path in life; it has to be more balanced.
To put it in context, a lot of the arguments towards the end of my marriage took place late at night. For many years the arguments would run until 4 or 5 in the morning, and I'd be exhausted the next day. At our very first to relationship counselling, the counsellor pretty much said "stop doing that" and encouraged us to not argue late into the night. So our arguments would often end with "it's too late for us to do this now, let's get some sleep and talk about it tomorrow."
The trouble was that the next day I'd be hard pressed to remember what it was that we needed to talk about, or how I'd been feeling at the end of the argument, so I couldn't give a reasonable response to my wife saying "but I apologised last night; we don't really need to talk about it more, do we?" even when I'd known that there was stuff that I needed to say, issues that I needed us to address. In my mind I'd find myself thinking "well, yes, actually, you did, so I can't really have anything to add, no matter what I'd felt last night. Everything's fine and we're resolving things rather than arguing about them."
Of course, we weren't, and a lot of the issues that I'd told myself were fine really, really weren't.
I guess some people would call this gaslighting on the part of my wife, but I don't agree; if I have an issue that needs to be addressed, I need to be able to bring it up and be certain that it gets addressed, regardless of how other people act. To give another example, just because you have great makeup sex after an argument doesn't necessarily mean that whatever you were arguing about has been fixed.
How do I make sure that I remember that there are things that need to be fixed, regardless of any positives that might surround them? I've tried journalling but I often just feel like I'm whining. Other suggestions are welcome.
To be clear up front, I love that I can see the positives in any situation. It helps give me a do-or-die attitude that has made me very successful at what I do; I don't like to give up. But you can't apply the same logic to relationships as you can to forging your path in life; it has to be more balanced.
To put it in context, a lot of the arguments towards the end of my marriage took place late at night. For many years the arguments would run until 4 or 5 in the morning, and I'd be exhausted the next day. At our very first to relationship counselling, the counsellor pretty much said "stop doing that" and encouraged us to not argue late into the night. So our arguments would often end with "it's too late for us to do this now, let's get some sleep and talk about it tomorrow."
The trouble was that the next day I'd be hard pressed to remember what it was that we needed to talk about, or how I'd been feeling at the end of the argument, so I couldn't give a reasonable response to my wife saying "but I apologised last night; we don't really need to talk about it more, do we?" even when I'd known that there was stuff that I needed to say, issues that I needed us to address. In my mind I'd find myself thinking "well, yes, actually, you did, so I can't really have anything to add, no matter what I'd felt last night. Everything's fine and we're resolving things rather than arguing about them."
Of course, we weren't, and a lot of the issues that I'd told myself were fine really, really weren't.
I guess some people would call this gaslighting on the part of my wife, but I don't agree; if I have an issue that needs to be addressed, I need to be able to bring it up and be certain that it gets addressed, regardless of how other people act. To give another example, just because you have great makeup sex after an argument doesn't necessarily mean that whatever you were arguing about has been fixed.
How do I make sure that I remember that there are things that need to be fixed, regardless of any positives that might surround them? I've tried journalling but I often just feel like I'm whining. Other suggestions are welcome.
Question: was there alcohol or drugs involved? I am not asking to judge, but only that intoxicants of any sort (including prescription drugs, even high intake of sugar or caffine such as coca cola) can effect our perceptions in the moment but are alleviated by sleep. Thus the morning-after feeling about the issue will be different than in-the-moment.
posted by Kerasia at 4:32 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Kerasia at 4:32 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think you have to remember your wife and you have a lot of history that you aren't necessarily going to have with someone else. So your examples won't necessarily apply to someone else because they will communicate differently to your wife. You said you journelled - short notes would work if you're worried it feels like whining - just to make sure your needs aren't wiped over. But you're going to have to actively seek out people who will actually listen to you.
You can bring things up later - as long as you're not flogging a dead horse, there's no time limit on when you can discuss issues that are weighing on you with someone. I think the problem was that your wife shut the conversation down enough times to build up a habit of silencing you so that you felt you could never ever bring it up. That's not necessarily going to apply with someone else, although the initial fear of that happening might be there.
As trite as this sounds - you'll have to give yourself permission to speak. Someone else may not necessarily silence you when you want to address things - and, if they do, evaluate early on what you want to do about it - do you want to keep being around them/do you need to call them out on it?
And I don't think your wife was gas lighting you - I think she just wanted to shut you down so that the problems couldn't be addressed. It's just a form of controlling the situation (and you) because she didn't want to face any criticism. The result is that you're unsure about expressing the negative without all hell breaking loose and/or being shut down. If I express my negative emotions, x will happen - I don't want to do that so I just won't say anything and I'll suppress the negative emotions/if I bring it up she'll just say that it's been dealt with already and I won't be heard by her so I won't listen to me because what she wants has overriden everything because I want to keep the peace and stay married.
You know what the negative feels like - I don't think you've been blinded by the positives - you've just been suppressing it because that's what you've been taught to do in your marriage.
posted by heyjude at 4:53 AM on July 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
You can bring things up later - as long as you're not flogging a dead horse, there's no time limit on when you can discuss issues that are weighing on you with someone. I think the problem was that your wife shut the conversation down enough times to build up a habit of silencing you so that you felt you could never ever bring it up. That's not necessarily going to apply with someone else, although the initial fear of that happening might be there.
As trite as this sounds - you'll have to give yourself permission to speak. Someone else may not necessarily silence you when you want to address things - and, if they do, evaluate early on what you want to do about it - do you want to keep being around them/do you need to call them out on it?
And I don't think your wife was gas lighting you - I think she just wanted to shut you down so that the problems couldn't be addressed. It's just a form of controlling the situation (and you) because she didn't want to face any criticism. The result is that you're unsure about expressing the negative without all hell breaking loose and/or being shut down. If I express my negative emotions, x will happen - I don't want to do that so I just won't say anything and I'll suppress the negative emotions/if I bring it up she'll just say that it's been dealt with already and I won't be heard by her so I won't listen to me because what she wants has overriden everything because I want to keep the peace and stay married.
You know what the negative feels like - I don't think you've been blinded by the positives - you've just been suppressing it because that's what you've been taught to do in your marriage.
posted by heyjude at 4:53 AM on July 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Journalling feels like whining...so what? Sometimes we need to whine to ourselves. If it helps, then keep doing it. The journal is for YOU, no one else, you can say whatever you damn want and no one can take that away from you. ESPECIALLY your wife, as heyjude says and based on your posting history, who tried to control as much of you as she could (thrilled to see you haven't gone back to her).
posted by Melismata at 5:18 AM on July 15, 2013
posted by Melismata at 5:18 AM on July 15, 2013
I've tried journalling but I often just feel like I'm whining.
What's wrong with that? The journal is for you to put your raw thoughts/feelings/emotions down on paper so they're not churning around in your head & bursting out in an argument. Journaling gives you some breathing space and some perspective. If you come back to read what you've written and it sounds like whining, it probably is whining. But that's how you felt at the moment and thsoe feelings are valid.
But in amongst the whining there's also probably a nugget of rationality in there worth pursuing, and the more you whine on paper, the less you whine in person, and what you're left with in person is a rational nugget. Something like "I resent when you dismiss my concerns with an insincere apology rather than addressing them honestly."
/goes to find an old journal to start writing in/
posted by headnsouth at 5:34 AM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
What's wrong with that? The journal is for you to put your raw thoughts/feelings/emotions down on paper so they're not churning around in your head & bursting out in an argument. Journaling gives you some breathing space and some perspective. If you come back to read what you've written and it sounds like whining, it probably is whining. But that's how you felt at the moment and thsoe feelings are valid.
But in amongst the whining there's also probably a nugget of rationality in there worth pursuing, and the more you whine on paper, the less you whine in person, and what you're left with in person is a rational nugget. Something like "I resent when you dismiss my concerns with an insincere apology rather than addressing them honestly."
/goes to find an old journal to start writing in/
posted by headnsouth at 5:34 AM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
I find that saying exactly what it is that's bugging me, right away, pretty much extracts the hassle of arguing. In fact, Husbunny and I don't argue.
Me: I'm annoyed because you left the garbage can out in the middle of the room, instead of putting a liner in it and putting it back under the sink.
Husbunny: Oh! D'oh! Sorry.
Me: Okay.
Once I say what I'm feeling and why, and it's acknowledged, I'm done.
I guess I wonder what you're arguing about. There's nothing that either of us could do that would warrant any more than a quick back-and-forth and a resolution.
We problem-solve together. That's it.
It may be that in your next relationship you won't have to argue because your communication will be such that a few sentences will settle it.
You divorced for a reason, there may have been a basic incompatibility. When you are compatible with your partner, you'll find that while you may disagree, that long, exhausting, drawn out debates just aren't necessary.
My very good friend told me, "You get what you settle for." So don't settle next time.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:44 AM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Me: I'm annoyed because you left the garbage can out in the middle of the room, instead of putting a liner in it and putting it back under the sink.
Husbunny: Oh! D'oh! Sorry.
Me: Okay.
Once I say what I'm feeling and why, and it's acknowledged, I'm done.
I guess I wonder what you're arguing about. There's nothing that either of us could do that would warrant any more than a quick back-and-forth and a resolution.
We problem-solve together. That's it.
It may be that in your next relationship you won't have to argue because your communication will be such that a few sentences will settle it.
You divorced for a reason, there may have been a basic incompatibility. When you are compatible with your partner, you'll find that while you may disagree, that long, exhausting, drawn out debates just aren't necessary.
My very good friend told me, "You get what you settle for." So don't settle next time.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:44 AM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
The only way you can spend several hours arguing is if you're going around in circles in a very small area, making no headway. The actual substance of whatever you're talking about is bound to be fairly small, but you can't get traction so you just spin your wheels.
The 'blinded by positives' idea doesn't make sense to me. I can see where you'd want to avoid diving back into fruitless bickering and instead embrace whatever good stuff you can find, but that's not blindness; that's learned helplessness with a side of soothing.
Journaling or therapy or some other way to clarify, for yourself, what is bothering you is probably a good idea. If you dismiss your thoughts outright, because they seem whiny or otherwise bad, and you stop exploring what they are and where they come from, then how can you hope to communicate about them with someone else? You can't make every conversation a good one just by having more insight into what you want to say, but if you are just upset and don't really know why then it's not fair to expect your partner to read your mind.
There may be some situations where your partner can help you figure out what's bugging you, just by being a good listener, but that's not going to happen in a fight where your and/or her fight-or-flight responses are aroused. When it gets to that point -- when it's even *flirting* with that point -- you've got to put whatever core issue you're trying to deal with on the back burner, and re-establish a sense of safety before all else. If you don't, you'll just find yourself fruitlessly arguing until 4AM again.
posted by jon1270 at 6:00 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
The 'blinded by positives' idea doesn't make sense to me. I can see where you'd want to avoid diving back into fruitless bickering and instead embrace whatever good stuff you can find, but that's not blindness; that's learned helplessness with a side of soothing.
Journaling or therapy or some other way to clarify, for yourself, what is bothering you is probably a good idea. If you dismiss your thoughts outright, because they seem whiny or otherwise bad, and you stop exploring what they are and where they come from, then how can you hope to communicate about them with someone else? You can't make every conversation a good one just by having more insight into what you want to say, but if you are just upset and don't really know why then it's not fair to expect your partner to read your mind.
There may be some situations where your partner can help you figure out what's bugging you, just by being a good listener, but that's not going to happen in a fight where your and/or her fight-or-flight responses are aroused. When it gets to that point -- when it's even *flirting* with that point -- you've got to put whatever core issue you're trying to deal with on the back burner, and re-establish a sense of safety before all else. If you don't, you'll just find yourself fruitlessly arguing until 4AM again.
posted by jon1270 at 6:00 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I may be reading somewhat into your question but it sounds like you and your wife got into some really bad patterns and you may be giving yourself a hard time for personality traits of yours that were somewhat problematic in the context of your relationship but that might not actually be negative personality traits in general. Let me explain....
I dated a wonderful man who had previously been in a long time low-level emotionally abusive relationship with his son's mom. She would fly off the handle from time to time and have these emotional storms that would rage and subside. He developed a coping strategy (effective at the time) to basically not really let those rages turn into individual issues. The overarching issue was that she was mean to him and would fly off the handle, but the individual things she would fly off the handle about were actually sort of not the point. They worked out some strategies for helping to keep the rages down, but part of coping for him was actually not addressing the specific things she would "go after" him about because they were tangential to the actual problem. Seeing the good sides of her and having a short memory for this sort of thing was actually 1. sort of useful for him and 2. developed specifically for this set of interactions. THAT said he wound up in the same sort of situation that you describe where ultimately he was in a bad relationship and was sort of not aware of it until later because he'd been learning to not get as affected by the roller coaster arguing and meanness.
Therapy and having a few non-relationship peers helped him get some perspective. Having friends for a "reality check" was really helpful. Things like "No your partner shouldn't be calling you an asshole because you wrap the cheese wrong" and "No your partner shouldn't be throwing things at you EVER" and "No your partner shouldn't be telling you that you can't have people over to your own house" can help you understand where your own boundaries can and should be and then you can learn to establish them and enforce them. There's a lot of wiggle room in the middle there where some people put up with better and worse treatment because on balance they are getting what they want in some other way. So it's good to have an idea of what you want for yourself, have that be clear with your journal/friends/therapist and then go in for a reality check once in a while to make sure you're on track for that or at least not wildly off track. Sometimes people who have gotten into bad relationship patterns can keep that stuff private because they think it reflects badly on them when realistically shining some light on the situation might help other people notice red flags that you have been overlooking.
posted by jessamyn at 6:34 AM on July 15, 2013 [6 favorites]
I dated a wonderful man who had previously been in a long time low-level emotionally abusive relationship with his son's mom. She would fly off the handle from time to time and have these emotional storms that would rage and subside. He developed a coping strategy (effective at the time) to basically not really let those rages turn into individual issues. The overarching issue was that she was mean to him and would fly off the handle, but the individual things she would fly off the handle about were actually sort of not the point. They worked out some strategies for helping to keep the rages down, but part of coping for him was actually not addressing the specific things she would "go after" him about because they were tangential to the actual problem. Seeing the good sides of her and having a short memory for this sort of thing was actually 1. sort of useful for him and 2. developed specifically for this set of interactions. THAT said he wound up in the same sort of situation that you describe where ultimately he was in a bad relationship and was sort of not aware of it until later because he'd been learning to not get as affected by the roller coaster arguing and meanness.
Therapy and having a few non-relationship peers helped him get some perspective. Having friends for a "reality check" was really helpful. Things like "No your partner shouldn't be calling you an asshole because you wrap the cheese wrong" and "No your partner shouldn't be throwing things at you EVER" and "No your partner shouldn't be telling you that you can't have people over to your own house" can help you understand where your own boundaries can and should be and then you can learn to establish them and enforce them. There's a lot of wiggle room in the middle there where some people put up with better and worse treatment because on balance they are getting what they want in some other way. So it's good to have an idea of what you want for yourself, have that be clear with your journal/friends/therapist and then go in for a reality check once in a while to make sure you're on track for that or at least not wildly off track. Sometimes people who have gotten into bad relationship patterns can keep that stuff private because they think it reflects badly on them when realistically shining some light on the situation might help other people notice red flags that you have been overlooking.
posted by jessamyn at 6:34 AM on July 15, 2013 [6 favorites]
What Jessamyn said - based entirely on my experience with people who say what you say, I suspect you are more of a white knight who wants to deny the bad behavior of a woman you perceive as troubled or emotional or something other than the truth.
Letting someone be a bully is not a kindness. Focus on the positive of helping those who are close to you be good, honest people. (This would work even if we're wrong about the problems in your marriage )
posted by Lesser Shrew at 7:56 AM on July 15, 2013
Letting someone be a bully is not a kindness. Focus on the positive of helping those who are close to you be good, honest people. (This would work even if we're wrong about the problems in your marriage )
posted by Lesser Shrew at 7:56 AM on July 15, 2013
It might help to focus on what you need, rather than what's positive or negative.
So in an argument with your wife, rather than going in circles, you would stop and think, "What do I need right now?" And then express and request that.
Don't think about whether it's good or bad, right or wrong, your fault or their fault. Don't talk yourself out of it. Just figure out what you need.
posted by chickenmagazine at 7:59 AM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
So in an argument with your wife, rather than going in circles, you would stop and think, "What do I need right now?" And then express and request that.
Don't think about whether it's good or bad, right or wrong, your fault or their fault. Don't talk yourself out of it. Just figure out what you need.
posted by chickenmagazine at 7:59 AM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
I've been wondering how you were since you last posted. I'm glad to hear you haven't gone back.
My husband and I used to get into the 4AM cycle; it was terrible and not very productive. We moved through it by moving to a more problem solving method of dealing with things. We had a therapist to help us with this; if you're seeing one, it might help to talk with him/her about how to bring up topics with a partner.
For instance, here's how an old argument would start:
Me: "You're did ((this thing)) and you're a horrible person, because any sane decent person would not have done ((this thing))."
Him: "You have got to be kidding me. Are you crazy? Everyone does ((this thing)), you're just crazy and overreacting."
etc.
Five hours later, we'd both be in tears, both apologizing, and the original item would have long since been forgotten. Nothing would have been resolved.
Instead, I would now bring up something in this way:
Me: deep breath, "Hey, when you teased me about missing my classes in front of your parents, I felt really angry, hurt, and belittled. We've been shopping for a house, and I've been working 60 hours a week, and I'm really stressed out. When I originally signed up for the class, I didn't know I was going to be so crazy busy at work. I feel like you do not recognize how stressed out I feel and how rough this month has been for me."
Him (surprised): "Oh, no! That's not how I meant it at all. My mom had a similar experience with almost the exact same class, and I mentioned it as I knew she would sympathize with you. I know things have been really bad for you, and I hope you know I would never intentionally belittle you at all. I'm really sorry for hurting you. I absolutely didn't mean it."
Me: "Ok. I understand, and thank you for letting me know. I'm still pretty angry because it's going to take awhile to dissipate. I'm going to go pull some weeds in the yard."
Twenty minutes later:
Me: "Hey, thanks again for talking things out. I'm feeling better. I'm glad we talked. Can I have a hug?"
Him: "Absolutely, and I'm sorry again. I know things have been rough. Can I cook you dinner?"
(For those who are reading and familiar with the 5 Love Languages, yes, we're both in the Acts of Service category).
The difference between the two is the difference between arguing for fault and arguing for resolution. Bringing things up for resolution is more about voicing what's going on and seeking a common ground, versus trying to lay blame or fault. Also, when you're going for resolution, it's framed as "I", not "you" - "When this happened, I felt X", not "You unfeeling imbecile, how could you make me feel this way?" In the second example, I was approaching my partner to say, "Look, you said this, and I felt bad, and I'm assuming you didn't mean it badly, but I can't possibly figure out what you meant in a non-hurtful way". I'm giving him a chance to explain himself, what he meant, and assuming he meant no harm, even though I felt bad. I'm also being honest about my emotions: I feel hurt, I feel angry, I still feel angry because it will take awhile to go away, let me do something to help it go away. When I left, it wasn't a storming out - it was to remove myself until I had control and wouldn't lash out for the temporary pleasure of hurting someone who had unintentionally hurt me.
I guess it's a longer way of saying what Ashlyth said - in the end, I want the resolution, not the apology. I really don't enjoy fighting with my husband. Neither of us enjoys it. Resolution means that we have the discussion once and we're done, with as little emotional fallout as possible.
posted by RogueTech at 9:03 AM on July 15, 2013 [8 favorites]
My husband and I used to get into the 4AM cycle; it was terrible and not very productive. We moved through it by moving to a more problem solving method of dealing with things. We had a therapist to help us with this; if you're seeing one, it might help to talk with him/her about how to bring up topics with a partner.
For instance, here's how an old argument would start:
Me: "You're did ((this thing)) and you're a horrible person, because any sane decent person would not have done ((this thing))."
Him: "You have got to be kidding me. Are you crazy? Everyone does ((this thing)), you're just crazy and overreacting."
etc.
Five hours later, we'd both be in tears, both apologizing, and the original item would have long since been forgotten. Nothing would have been resolved.
Instead, I would now bring up something in this way:
Me: deep breath, "Hey, when you teased me about missing my classes in front of your parents, I felt really angry, hurt, and belittled. We've been shopping for a house, and I've been working 60 hours a week, and I'm really stressed out. When I originally signed up for the class, I didn't know I was going to be so crazy busy at work. I feel like you do not recognize how stressed out I feel and how rough this month has been for me."
Him (surprised): "Oh, no! That's not how I meant it at all. My mom had a similar experience with almost the exact same class, and I mentioned it as I knew she would sympathize with you. I know things have been really bad for you, and I hope you know I would never intentionally belittle you at all. I'm really sorry for hurting you. I absolutely didn't mean it."
Me: "Ok. I understand, and thank you for letting me know. I'm still pretty angry because it's going to take awhile to dissipate. I'm going to go pull some weeds in the yard."
Twenty minutes later:
Me: "Hey, thanks again for talking things out. I'm feeling better. I'm glad we talked. Can I have a hug?"
Him: "Absolutely, and I'm sorry again. I know things have been rough. Can I cook you dinner?"
(For those who are reading and familiar with the 5 Love Languages, yes, we're both in the Acts of Service category).
The difference between the two is the difference between arguing for fault and arguing for resolution. Bringing things up for resolution is more about voicing what's going on and seeking a common ground, versus trying to lay blame or fault. Also, when you're going for resolution, it's framed as "I", not "you" - "When this happened, I felt X", not "You unfeeling imbecile, how could you make me feel this way?" In the second example, I was approaching my partner to say, "Look, you said this, and I felt bad, and I'm assuming you didn't mean it badly, but I can't possibly figure out what you meant in a non-hurtful way". I'm giving him a chance to explain himself, what he meant, and assuming he meant no harm, even though I felt bad. I'm also being honest about my emotions: I feel hurt, I feel angry, I still feel angry because it will take awhile to go away, let me do something to help it go away. When I left, it wasn't a storming out - it was to remove myself until I had control and wouldn't lash out for the temporary pleasure of hurting someone who had unintentionally hurt me.
I guess it's a longer way of saying what Ashlyth said - in the end, I want the resolution, not the apology. I really don't enjoy fighting with my husband. Neither of us enjoys it. Resolution means that we have the discussion once and we're done, with as little emotional fallout as possible.
posted by RogueTech at 9:03 AM on July 15, 2013 [8 favorites]
Oh, boy, I could have said a good bit of what you said. I argued constantly with the ex, often until 4am. I am inclined to look for the positives. Etc. (But I think you are framing the problem wrong.)
Journalling:
Keep at it. After you have whined, reread it. Try to figure out what the crux of the issue is and where you want it to go. Make a list of imagined solutions. Understand that this will be a stupid list, especially at first. Do it anyway. Figure out how you might have replied different. Use the journal as a sandbox for exploring alternative scenarios. It is really hard to break bad habits in the heat of the moment. You will be lots better off if you have already thought up some different options before you wind up in a heated debate again.
Partners/communication habits:
My ex is smart, white middle class American. I am also a smart, white American. We both thought we understood each other because we both speak American English articulately well. Boy were we wrong. It took years to figure out we didn't understand each other at all.
During my divorce, I was involved with a string of culturally diverse non-whites. Like my ex, these were very smart men, inclined to debate things. My response to a few ugly fights was "I have no fucking clue what you are talking about. I didn't say that. I never so much as thought that. I think this is a terrible misunderstanding. I am hurting. You are hurting. Can we please not do this?" That was effective.
I learned something from that experience and I am currently involved with a guy who has characterized a few of our discussions as "arguments." I have told him "I do not recall having a single argument with you. I don't recall you calling me names, hurting my feelings, or being ugly to me. I do recall a few situations where we had to work at communicating effectively. To me, that isn't an argument. It is just talking. We need to work on our definitions here."
I will never again fight with a man until 4am. I may hash things out, problem solve, etc I might even talk to him until 4am. But I do not want to scream and cuss and cry for hours on end at someone I am sleeping with. And I don't have to. No one can make me choose to do that. I won't stonewall him but that just isn't effective communication. We can discuss it or walk away if we come to a real impasse, but I am not doing that to myself or another person again. ("I will no more forever" and all that.)
Weighing the negatives adequately:
Even though your examples don't really fit with this, it is your stated question. I am inclined to view the actions of others in a positive light. I am inclined to be tolerant, understanding, compassionate, etc. There is nothing wrong with that IF it is a two way street. That's only a problem when the other person is a fucktard, looking for bs excuses to get over who doesn't actually give a damn about you.
I have two adult sons. They are super loyal to me. They make sure I get enough from them to make it worth my while to put up with their crap. So while I know that most people are assholes who will crap on me for being kind, compassionate, generous, etc, I am kind compassionate, generous etc anyway because I now know when to quit and when and why to keep giving.
To people I don't know, I give as much as I am willing to give away without expecting anything in return. When some of those people turn out to be fucktards who think that giving them something makes me their bitch, the answer to that is that they have gotten all I am going to give. I am done with them. Those folks who are polite but not generous in return might get more from me if I happen to feel like it but I understand that I do not owe them. The only people who get dibs on my time, energy, ...etc.. and life are the super tiny number of people who are generous in return, who make damn sure it is a symbiotic situation and we are both getting our needs met, etc. Those people are very rare. It doesn't become a big burden.
I hope that helps, though I suspect you will have trouble seeing that last bit as really addressing the situation. For me, it does.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 11:14 AM on July 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
Journalling:
Keep at it. After you have whined, reread it. Try to figure out what the crux of the issue is and where you want it to go. Make a list of imagined solutions. Understand that this will be a stupid list, especially at first. Do it anyway. Figure out how you might have replied different. Use the journal as a sandbox for exploring alternative scenarios. It is really hard to break bad habits in the heat of the moment. You will be lots better off if you have already thought up some different options before you wind up in a heated debate again.
Partners/communication habits:
My ex is smart, white middle class American. I am also a smart, white American. We both thought we understood each other because we both speak American English articulately well. Boy were we wrong. It took years to figure out we didn't understand each other at all.
During my divorce, I was involved with a string of culturally diverse non-whites. Like my ex, these were very smart men, inclined to debate things. My response to a few ugly fights was "I have no fucking clue what you are talking about. I didn't say that. I never so much as thought that. I think this is a terrible misunderstanding. I am hurting. You are hurting. Can we please not do this?" That was effective.
I learned something from that experience and I am currently involved with a guy who has characterized a few of our discussions as "arguments." I have told him "I do not recall having a single argument with you. I don't recall you calling me names, hurting my feelings, or being ugly to me. I do recall a few situations where we had to work at communicating effectively. To me, that isn't an argument. It is just talking. We need to work on our definitions here."
I will never again fight with a man until 4am. I may hash things out, problem solve, etc I might even talk to him until 4am. But I do not want to scream and cuss and cry for hours on end at someone I am sleeping with. And I don't have to. No one can make me choose to do that. I won't stonewall him but that just isn't effective communication. We can discuss it or walk away if we come to a real impasse, but I am not doing that to myself or another person again. ("I will no more forever" and all that.)
Weighing the negatives adequately:
Even though your examples don't really fit with this, it is your stated question. I am inclined to view the actions of others in a positive light. I am inclined to be tolerant, understanding, compassionate, etc. There is nothing wrong with that IF it is a two way street. That's only a problem when the other person is a fucktard, looking for bs excuses to get over who doesn't actually give a damn about you.
I have two adult sons. They are super loyal to me. They make sure I get enough from them to make it worth my while to put up with their crap. So while I know that most people are assholes who will crap on me for being kind, compassionate, generous, etc, I am kind compassionate, generous etc anyway because I now know when to quit and when and why to keep giving.
To people I don't know, I give as much as I am willing to give away without expecting anything in return. When some of those people turn out to be fucktards who think that giving them something makes me their bitch, the answer to that is that they have gotten all I am going to give. I am done with them. Those folks who are polite but not generous in return might get more from me if I happen to feel like it but I understand that I do not owe them. The only people who get dibs on my time, energy, ...etc.. and life are the super tiny number of people who are generous in return, who make damn sure it is a symbiotic situation and we are both getting our needs met, etc. Those people are very rare. It doesn't become a big burden.
I hope that helps, though I suspect you will have trouble seeing that last bit as really addressing the situation. For me, it does.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 11:14 AM on July 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
The genders will be reversed, but I suspect you may benefit from reading Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. I think you may be pathologizing some coping mechanisms that helped you survive a borderline abusive relationship (on reading your past questions). You might want to shift your goal away from changing yourself and more toward recognizing signs of abusive tactics, so that you can end things before you start walking on eggshells (which is what your question is describing, I think) with a future partner.
posted by jaguar at 12:37 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by jaguar at 12:37 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I did not want the apology. Apologies were when one person felt bad about what had happened. I don't like my partner feeling bad about things. I often felt like bringing up issues was making my partner feel bad, especially for the small things. Google '5 languages of apology' - and figure out which one you are.
I did want the resolution. It helped to discuss things as an 'us versus problem' perspective. It also helped to focus on why something happened, and how we could change it. Also, avoid dwelling on the past - if they might feel the need to apologise for something, rephrase what you were going to say. Instead of 'you hurt me when you did x', you might say instead 'I'd rather you didn't do x in the future - would y be possible?'
The focus of the conversation is entirely 'how do we fix this/not let it happen again', and absolutely NOT apologising/making restitution or making them sorry for past wrongs.
Finally, figure out what you actually want to happen, and journal that - what would be the absolute ideal outcome for you. Encourage your partner to name the absolute ideal outcome for them - especially if it's something they don't already have. Often in bringing things up it turned out we both wanted the same thing - or were both happier with the result! (Example: I hated one chore, he hated another, we were both avoiding doing our half of said chores. Fix: both do 100% of the one we didn't hate.)
It's also a lot easier with a supportive partner who doesn't want to avoid talking about it more. It's easy to bring things up if it can result in a better outcome for both people. With the second strategy, they're also a lot less likely to want to avoid talking about it more, because it's not making them feel bad for whatever. If you think you might be making your partner reluctant to discuss things by the way you approach discussing things, perhaps you might want to think about how to improve your own conflict resolution skills (plenty of old askme's/book reccomendations on this.)
posted by Ashlyth at 4:29 AM on July 15, 2013 [13 favorites]