Learn Spanish in Puerto Rico?
July 15, 2013 4:08 AM Subscribe
I am thinking about doing an intensive Spanish language program in Puerto Rico. Is that a good idea?
I will have some leave this December and I'm considering doing an intensive language program for one or two weeks. The difficulty is that because this is "home leave," I have to stay within the borders of the United States & territories.
As far as I can tell, my only option is to take Spanish in Puerto Rico. I have heard some disparaging remarks online from native Spanish speakers about Puerto Rican Spanish. (For Example)
Is this really a problem? I am an absolute beginner in Spanish so I imagine I would be able to correct any problems in later classes in other countries.
So my questions to you, Metafilter, are:
1. Should I learn Spanish in Puerto Rico?
2. Why or why not?
3. If so, can you recommend a school or program?
4. If not, what other possibilities do I have to take an intensive language course in the US?
Thanks for your help!
I will have some leave this December and I'm considering doing an intensive language program for one or two weeks. The difficulty is that because this is "home leave," I have to stay within the borders of the United States & territories.
As far as I can tell, my only option is to take Spanish in Puerto Rico. I have heard some disparaging remarks online from native Spanish speakers about Puerto Rican Spanish. (For Example)
Is this really a problem? I am an absolute beginner in Spanish so I imagine I would be able to correct any problems in later classes in other countries.
So my questions to you, Metafilter, are:
1. Should I learn Spanish in Puerto Rico?
2. Why or why not?
3. If so, can you recommend a school or program?
4. If not, what other possibilities do I have to take an intensive language course in the US?
Thanks for your help!
Language learning is my main hobby. To answer your questions:
1. No.
2. As an absolute beginner, I think that study abroad programs are of little use (yes, I know PR is not "abroad"). I do not think it really does anything useful until one is at least a A2/B1 on the CEFR scale. The reason is that until that point, your vocabulary is small so you do not have very much to say and people talking at native speed can still be too fast to comprehend well; the prosidy will not be well internalized yet. I also think that language learners tend to want to speak too early. For an English speaker learning Spanish, I wouldn't start speaking until I had tree or so months of serious study under my belt, maybe 100 hours or so.
Also, I think that just one or two weeks is of very little use for any language learner doing first-time acquisition. A trip of that length would be beneficial, I think, to a language learner to wants to activate a language that they have allowed to go dormant. I do not think it would be useful for someone who is learning for the first time. You would be flying back home just when you were getting your feet wet.
People seem to think that being abroad is magic for language learning. Many times I have heard people say that the reason they cannot learn a foreign language is because they cannot get to a country where it is the common tongue. This is nonsense. Language is not acquired through osmosis and I have know many expatriates who never gained proficiency in a foreign language despite years in country. On the other hand, I have acquired proficiency in languages where I have never been to the country/countries. It is a matter of time with the language and your motivation. You can do that in your living room.
3. No (see 2 above)
4. I do not recommend that people take classroom language courses if they want to make the best use of their time. The reason is that they focus too much on speaking and you spend a lot of your time listening to other students speak. How does hearing another beginner speak help you? Not very much, in my view.
Having been at language learning for many years, I have come to favor an input-based approach as hypothesized by Stephen Krashen. In other words, focus on comprehensible input. While no system is perfect, I have come to use the Assimil series as my first course when starting a new language. I would recommend their Spanish With Ease, and be sure to get the audio CDs along with the book. The lessons are short and designed to be done one per day, and I generally find them interesting and often funny. While I think the claim that you will be at B2 level when you are done is exaggerated, I think you will be comfortably conversational somewhere around an A2. It will give you a foundation for further study.
An SRS app, such as Anki, can also be of great help to reinforce vocabulary.
If you search around AskMe, I have had a few comments about general language learning strategy. Please feel free to MeMail if you would like to discuss further.
posted by Tanizaki at 5:09 AM on July 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
1. No.
2. As an absolute beginner, I think that study abroad programs are of little use (yes, I know PR is not "abroad"). I do not think it really does anything useful until one is at least a A2/B1 on the CEFR scale. The reason is that until that point, your vocabulary is small so you do not have very much to say and people talking at native speed can still be too fast to comprehend well; the prosidy will not be well internalized yet. I also think that language learners tend to want to speak too early. For an English speaker learning Spanish, I wouldn't start speaking until I had tree or so months of serious study under my belt, maybe 100 hours or so.
Also, I think that just one or two weeks is of very little use for any language learner doing first-time acquisition. A trip of that length would be beneficial, I think, to a language learner to wants to activate a language that they have allowed to go dormant. I do not think it would be useful for someone who is learning for the first time. You would be flying back home just when you were getting your feet wet.
People seem to think that being abroad is magic for language learning. Many times I have heard people say that the reason they cannot learn a foreign language is because they cannot get to a country where it is the common tongue. This is nonsense. Language is not acquired through osmosis and I have know many expatriates who never gained proficiency in a foreign language despite years in country. On the other hand, I have acquired proficiency in languages where I have never been to the country/countries. It is a matter of time with the language and your motivation. You can do that in your living room.
3. No (see 2 above)
4. I do not recommend that people take classroom language courses if they want to make the best use of their time. The reason is that they focus too much on speaking and you spend a lot of your time listening to other students speak. How does hearing another beginner speak help you? Not very much, in my view.
Having been at language learning for many years, I have come to favor an input-based approach as hypothesized by Stephen Krashen. In other words, focus on comprehensible input. While no system is perfect, I have come to use the Assimil series as my first course when starting a new language. I would recommend their Spanish With Ease, and be sure to get the audio CDs along with the book. The lessons are short and designed to be done one per day, and I generally find them interesting and often funny. While I think the claim that you will be at B2 level when you are done is exaggerated, I think you will be comfortably conversational somewhere around an A2. It will give you a foundation for further study.
An SRS app, such as Anki, can also be of great help to reinforce vocabulary.
If you search around AskMe, I have had a few comments about general language learning strategy. Please feel free to MeMail if you would like to discuss further.
posted by Tanizaki at 5:09 AM on July 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
The guy on that web page is not a native speaker, and he is also a jerk. All languages are influenced by the languages in contact with them. If you learn in Puerto Rico, you will learn a Spanish influenced not only by English, but by Carib languages like Taino & Arawak. The pronunciation will be informed by Sevillian Spanish, which drops all final & interior sibilants, and that may be harder for you to deal with than the English influence. Nevertheless, PR Spanish is legitimate Spanish. When I was there, most people spoke Spanish all the time, except in San Juan.
I can't recommend a program there bc I don't know of one. I studied Spanish out of grammar books until I got good enough to pass the SAT II and take a minor at university, and I am now a fluent Spanish speaker teaching ESOL. My husband is Puerto Rican and all his family speaks Spanish, and so my familiarity with PR Spanish.
Goodness knows there are plenty of helpful apps and programs. I listened to FSI tapes in the car while commuting. I also watch TV & movies in Spanish, and use Duolingo for translation and speaking practice. It's probably easier to get a base in Spanish before trying to go anywhere for immersion, unless you have a year or more, because that's how language acquisition works.
posted by toodleydoodley at 5:14 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I can't recommend a program there bc I don't know of one. I studied Spanish out of grammar books until I got good enough to pass the SAT II and take a minor at university, and I am now a fluent Spanish speaker teaching ESOL. My husband is Puerto Rican and all his family speaks Spanish, and so my familiarity with PR Spanish.
Goodness knows there are plenty of helpful apps and programs. I listened to FSI tapes in the car while commuting. I also watch TV & movies in Spanish, and use Duolingo for translation and speaking practice. It's probably easier to get a base in Spanish before trying to go anywhere for immersion, unless you have a year or more, because that's how language acquisition works.
posted by toodleydoodley at 5:14 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I just wanted to clarify my bias: I've never been to Puerto Rico but I have spent time in the US with Spanish-speaking minorities. I am not intimately familiar with Puerto Rican Spanish, I'm just a Spanish Linguist (from South America) with 2 years of classroom experience teaching it to European beginners.
posted by ipsative at 5:16 AM on July 15, 2013
posted by ipsative at 5:16 AM on July 15, 2013
My wife works for Berlitz language schools. It isn't cheap, but if you want to learn quickly Berlitz has been teaching languages via full immersion in the classroom for over 100 years. They also have online options that are not as expensive.
posted by COD at 5:47 AM on July 15, 2013
posted by COD at 5:47 AM on July 15, 2013
Go to Puerto Rico and hang out with people, use your Spanish phrases and converse as much as possible.
Puerto Rico is beautiful and I've always had a good time there.
Because I learned my bit of Spanish in Miami, but I have a great ear, I am told that I speak Spanish with a Cuban accent. It makes my sister with her more Mexican Spanish crazy because I drop the last s on some of my words. "Gracia" instead of "Graciasssss".
I get my coffee as I like it, my vocabulary is such that I can order what I like in any restaurant, and I have a good time when I'm out with my Cuban family.
If you have some conversational Spanish skills, just go have a lovely vacation and use your Spanish. If you're looking to spend two weeks in a place and come out speaking Spanish...I'd not bother.
I like the idea of studying a language in a classroom setting, then vacationing where you can practice it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:52 AM on July 15, 2013
Puerto Rico is beautiful and I've always had a good time there.
Because I learned my bit of Spanish in Miami, but I have a great ear, I am told that I speak Spanish with a Cuban accent. It makes my sister with her more Mexican Spanish crazy because I drop the last s on some of my words. "Gracia" instead of "Graciasssss".
I get my coffee as I like it, my vocabulary is such that I can order what I like in any restaurant, and I have a good time when I'm out with my Cuban family.
If you have some conversational Spanish skills, just go have a lovely vacation and use your Spanish. If you're looking to spend two weeks in a place and come out speaking Spanish...I'd not bother.
I like the idea of studying a language in a classroom setting, then vacationing where you can practice it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:52 AM on July 15, 2013
I had Spanish in school in grades 4-12 and aced the Spanish AP test. I thought I was hot shit, and could easily engage in conversation with native speakers in the US and when traveling in Mexico. But my teachers were pretty much all from Mexico, except for one teacher in high school who was from Colombia, and most of the folks I was interacting with in the US were from Mexico or Guatemala, or their parents were at least. In other words, I had no experience with Caribbean Spanish.
Thus, I was completely unprepared to vacation in Puerto Rico, where interactions like eating at a restaurant or buying gas were fraught because the pronunciation was so completely different, especially the missing consonants mentioned above. I could talk fine, and they understood my American/Mexican accent fine, but I struggled to understand them.
So, I really think it depends on why you're learning Spanish whether studying in Puerto Rico is a good idea. Depending on who you are likely to be interacting with in your daily life and where you plan on future travel, it could be great, or it could be not particularly useful.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:53 AM on July 15, 2013
Thus, I was completely unprepared to vacation in Puerto Rico, where interactions like eating at a restaurant or buying gas were fraught because the pronunciation was so completely different, especially the missing consonants mentioned above. I could talk fine, and they understood my American/Mexican accent fine, but I struggled to understand them.
So, I really think it depends on why you're learning Spanish whether studying in Puerto Rico is a good idea. Depending on who you are likely to be interacting with in your daily life and where you plan on future travel, it could be great, or it could be not particularly useful.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:53 AM on July 15, 2013
Actually, I'm going to step back my last sentence, as I can imagine that someone from Mexico or Central America would have no problem understanding Caribbean Spanish, and I imagine someone who studied in PR would probably fine mainland spoken Spanish almost an "easy level". So, really, I think from an accent perspective you're fine studying in PR. I just think it's important to know that differences do exist in accent and vocab from one area to the next and that there's not just one "Spanish" anymore than there is just one "English" (I once spent a week camping in an isolated area with a bunch of English and Scottish folks and I was nearly as lost in conversation there as in PR).
posted by hydropsyche at 6:01 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by hydropsyche at 6:01 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Tanizaki said: I do not recommend that people take classroom language courses if they want to make the best use of their time. The reason is that they focus too much on speaking and you spend a lot of your time listening to other students speak. How does hearing another beginner speak help you? Not very much, in my view.
I forgot to mention that I plan to do individual (1-on-1 with a native speaker) not group lessons. I have done this kind of thing before with other languages so I know the drill. I get what you are saying though.
The guy on that web page is not a native speaker, and he is also a jerk.
Yeah, I see that. His warning about Puerto Ricans using English words reminded me of a time when I went to KFC with a friend from Peru. She got pissed off because the Puerto Rican clerk didn’t know the Spanish word for “crispy.” I guess I picked up some of her bias from that incident.
posted by Gringos Without Borders at 6:48 AM on July 15, 2013
I forgot to mention that I plan to do individual (1-on-1 with a native speaker) not group lessons. I have done this kind of thing before with other languages so I know the drill. I get what you are saying though.
The guy on that web page is not a native speaker, and he is also a jerk.
Yeah, I see that. His warning about Puerto Ricans using English words reminded me of a time when I went to KFC with a friend from Peru. She got pissed off because the Puerto Rican clerk didn’t know the Spanish word for “crispy.” I guess I picked up some of her bias from that incident.
posted by Gringos Without Borders at 6:48 AM on July 15, 2013
Best answer: Last year, I took Spanish lessons in Guatemala in a Mayan region and the Spanish-descended people in Guatemala told me that the Mayans don't know how to speak proper Spanish.
If you're an absolute beginner, it really doesn't matter where you take it. To be honest, in two weeks, even in one-on-one classes, you aren't going to get much further than present tense, asking for directions, ordering food and learning occupations. It really doesn't matter where you learn that stuff, so I wouldn't sweat it.
posted by empath at 6:52 AM on July 15, 2013
If you're an absolute beginner, it really doesn't matter where you take it. To be honest, in two weeks, even in one-on-one classes, you aren't going to get much further than present tense, asking for directions, ordering food and learning occupations. It really doesn't matter where you learn that stuff, so I wouldn't sweat it.
posted by empath at 6:52 AM on July 15, 2013
She got pissed off because the Puerto Rican clerk didn’t know the Spanish word for “crispy.” I guess I picked up some of her bias from that incident.
That's silly. Just as there are many British uses of words in English, Chips for Fries, Crisps for Chips, there are different words in Spanish. Here are some words that mean Crispy:
churruscadito, crujiente, curruscante, tostadito
Your Peruvian friend may have used one that was unfamiliar to the Puerto Rican clerk.
Snobby, snobby, snobby.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:54 AM on July 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
That's silly. Just as there are many British uses of words in English, Chips for Fries, Crisps for Chips, there are different words in Spanish. Here are some words that mean Crispy:
churruscadito, crujiente, curruscante, tostadito
Your Peruvian friend may have used one that was unfamiliar to the Puerto Rican clerk.
Snobby, snobby, snobby.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:54 AM on July 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: My wife works for Berlitz language schools. It isn't cheap, but if you want to learn quickly Berlitz has been teaching languages via full immersion in the classroom for over 100 years. They also have online options that are not as expensive.
I guess I should clarify. I have done this kind of thing before and I prefer the in country, face-to-face type of experience.
Snobby, snobby, snobby
True.
posted by Gringos Without Borders at 6:56 AM on July 15, 2013
I guess I should clarify. I have done this kind of thing before and I prefer the in country, face-to-face type of experience.
Snobby, snobby, snobby
True.
posted by Gringos Without Borders at 6:56 AM on July 15, 2013
You can't learn a whole lot in 1-2 weeks. You'd be better off spending several months completing the free duoLingo app first and then go to PR. But if it's just one on one with a teacher, you could do the same thing in Miami or San Diego or Santa Ana and still find environments with a lot of Spanish speakers. Personally I find Puerto Rican Spanish to be like the Brooklyn version of English but that's just my non-expert opinion. If I were to get a teacher myself, I'd be looking for a Colombian!
posted by Dansaman at 6:57 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Dansaman at 6:57 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
You'd be better off spending several months completing the free duoLingo app first and then go to PR
Seconding this, btw. I wish I had done this before i went to Guatemala.
posted by empath at 7:03 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Seconding this, btw. I wish I had done this before i went to Guatemala.
posted by empath at 7:03 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I am Puerto Rican. I have a friend who is not a Spanish speaker and he moved there hoping to learn Spanish by immersion. Unfortunately, a lot of people speak English and will speak it to you if they know that's your main language, so he learned squat. So if you do this I would highly suggest insisting that this is your chance to learn/ practice your Spanish and not a chance for them to practice their English, therefore they should speak to you in Spanish.
There is a marked accent and tempo difference in the Caribbean, compared to South American Spanish (although it's not like SA Spanish is monolithic either) that might make it difficult for you to understand spoken Spanish in PR. It's up to you whether this matters to you. However, if you are doing a one on one class then I would think that your instructor is not going to pile on the Puerto Rican-isms and will speak a more neutral version. I'd make sure of that before deciding.
You're going to get Anglicisms in PR, this is true. I don't think that in the space of a one or two week stay that this will be a problem. I would be more concerned if you were going to be there for an extended period and were not taking classes, but solely relying on immersion. I am pretty certain your instructor isn't going to tell you that "wallet" is the correct word for that item, even though many people say it.
Personally I find Puerto Rican Spanish to be like the Brooklyn version of English but that's just my non-expert opinion.
Okay...
posted by DrGirlfriend at 9:39 AM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
There is a marked accent and tempo difference in the Caribbean, compared to South American Spanish (although it's not like SA Spanish is monolithic either) that might make it difficult for you to understand spoken Spanish in PR. It's up to you whether this matters to you. However, if you are doing a one on one class then I would think that your instructor is not going to pile on the Puerto Rican-isms and will speak a more neutral version. I'd make sure of that before deciding.
You're going to get Anglicisms in PR, this is true. I don't think that in the space of a one or two week stay that this will be a problem. I would be more concerned if you were going to be there for an extended period and were not taking classes, but solely relying on immersion. I am pretty certain your instructor isn't going to tell you that "wallet" is the correct word for that item, even though many people say it.
Personally I find Puerto Rican Spanish to be like the Brooklyn version of English but that's just my non-expert opinion.
Okay...
posted by DrGirlfriend at 9:39 AM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
She got pissed off because the Puerto Rican clerk didn’t know the Spanish word for “crispy.” I guess I picked up some of her bias from that incident.
I have found that there is a lot of distaste around Latin America for how Puerto Ricans speak Spanish. Even though like I said above, the accents around the Spanish Caribbean as a whole are very different, it seems to me that I get that kind of pissiness from people and my Cuban and Doninican friends don't, as much. So it's something to keep in mind.
posted by DrGirlfriend at 9:45 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have found that there is a lot of distaste around Latin America for how Puerto Ricans speak Spanish. Even though like I said above, the accents around the Spanish Caribbean as a whole are very different, it seems to me that I get that kind of pissiness from people and my Cuban and Doninican friends don't, as much. So it's something to keep in mind.
posted by DrGirlfriend at 9:45 AM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Questions 1-3: I think you should go. It's true that Puerto Ricans have an accent and a particular slang and vocabulary, but that is true of spoken languages everywhere: every one of us has an accent and a particular regional vocabulary. I personally prefer to learn a language by talking to native speakers and learning how real people talk, instead of just learning the sanitized classroom version of the language, and I think every interaction with native speakers helps. Being frustrated a lot of the time is a part of learning a language, I think. Don't let it stop you trying to talk to people. And personally, I'd rather have a specific regional accent than no accent at all, because the "no accent" is also an accent, but it just marks you as a foreigner even more clearly. Anyway, two weeks isn't that long, so it's not like you're going to leave at the end of it speaking fluent Puerto Rican Spanish anyway.
Question 4: If you ever have 6-7 weeks free and still aren't allowed to leave the U.S., you might consider the Middlebury Language School. You take a pledge at the beginning of your course to only speak in your target language. The program has a very good reputation.
posted by colfax at 10:38 AM on July 15, 2013
Question 4: If you ever have 6-7 weeks free and still aren't allowed to leave the U.S., you might consider the Middlebury Language School. You take a pledge at the beginning of your course to only speak in your target language. The program has a very good reputation.
posted by colfax at 10:38 AM on July 15, 2013
Response by poster: Colfax, I would love to do the Middlebury program at some point. I'm not sure when I will have the time, though.
posted by Gringos Without Borders at 10:24 PM on July 15, 2013
posted by Gringos Without Borders at 10:24 PM on July 15, 2013
« Older Help me stop being blinded by positives | Wrist pain two years after the injury--suck it up... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
I really hate the myth of there being one "pure" Spanish. There is no such thing, and claims to that effect usually like to devalue Latin American varieties.
That said, you should pay attention to what you are learning, and ask whether it's regional or standard.
Your teacher should know that, and I would expect most serious language courses will teach you both standard (Latin American) Spanish and explain any Puerto Rican departures from it (and teach you the standard Spanish alternatives). Like it or not, Puerto Rican is one legitimate variety of Spanish, of many others. And each of those has its own idiosyncrasies.
I think your friends' warnings are exaggerated because:
1) The differences are not really that great. Mostly in vocabulary and pronunciation, hardly any in grammar. Especially the "cultivated" register is very similar among different varieties, especially those that are regionally close (your accent will be from the Caribbean, most people from, say, Spain, will have trouble telling it apart from Cuban or Dominican Spanish). There'll be a lot of aspiration and missing consonants, but this is no different in other coastal regions of Central and South America. Or even southern Spain.
Any native speaker should understand you if you pay attention to your teacher, who will most likely (hopefully) be extra careful to teach you the standard. If you're at a bar or at the beach (aaah the Caribbean!) sure, people will speak colloquially, and a lot of Spanglish, but that will be no different anywhere in the US.
2) I've spoken Spanish with two Puerto Ricans, and both used lots of English loan words, and had a Caribbean accent. The one girl who was raised in San Juan spoke it really well, the one who was raised in New York... well, not quite as well. Stick to the cities, even better if you get to meet university students who will likely speak a lot like the videos on the link you posted.
3) You're a beginner who will spend two weeks learning Spanish. I can't think of a better place to do it, given your options. While it may not be the best kind of full immersion, given that English will still be available to you, you will be surrounded by native speakers. In two weeks, you'll probably just be taking the basics home anyway, and those are pretty much the same all over the world.
posted by ipsative at 5:03 AM on July 15, 2013