Not thinking straight.
May 13, 2013 11:05 AM   Subscribe

Just found out my boyfriend slept with someone else on Saturday night.

Background: We've been together for over a year. Moved in together after a month and although we've had our ups and downs, I've never felt this way about anyone before. A few months ago he moved back to our home town for employment reasons and since then we've gone from living together to daily phone calls and seeing each other most weekends.

I'm early 30's, he's late 20's His family love me and vice versa. I've trusted him like I've never trusted anyone before. In fact I never actually did trust anyone before I met him. In the past I've been lied to, deceived and cheated on (and been a cheat too tbh), but with him I was naturally faithful, never even looked at another man and just knew he felt the same way. So I thought.

He's not a lascivious type of man, in fact one of the things I've loved most about him is that he does not objectify women in a way that is so common these days. He doesn't leer or even slyly check girls out in front of me, and while I know that he looks at porn for a few minutes now and then to get himself off when we're apart it doesn't bother me because he is honest with me about it. We've always been extremely open, no secrets even when it causes arguments. Our phones are open to one another, we know each others email/FB passwords and he doesn't ever flag up my intuition with suspicious distrustful behaviour. He is a very loving person. He cuddles my granny, spends his day off chopping wood for his invalided grandad. I think he's a good guy. Well, I thought he was.

However he has always had an issue with drinking. When we got together I stated clearly that I would only be with him if he got that under control and to his credit he really did. He cut back significantly but as I like to drink in moderation , we would still drink together sometimes and on the odd occasion he would have a blow out with his old drinking buddies, which I never liked but accepted that someone can only change so much in a certain amount of time.

Recently an old fling of his from years ago has been messaging him persistently on FB. It irritated me a little as it clearly states on FB he is in a relationship but still she was email bombing him, despite him barely responding except once or twice to be polite. More than anything I felt sorry for her as she is young and has several kids in a blatantly unhappy relationship. She also has alcohol addiction and while she may have been attractive once, she is really physically unappealing now. . Didn't think in a hundred years that she would be a threat. We have a great sex life and Bf, ex-bf, lets call him H, H is a very handsome guy and despite having attractive women often hitting on him I've never felt threatened. I know 100% up to this point he has been faithful. Wish I could explain why but I just always felt we were so right for each other, and nobody else could compete with what we had together. Again, shows what I know.

On Saturday night we had an argument over the phone, the first in a while (we've had a rough patch lately due to an unwanted pregnancy and the subsequent termination) and I hung up on him. I knew that evening he was going out to catch up with a friend whom hadn't been out since his gf had their baby, so a lot of drinking would definitely be going on. Still as bad as our argument was, the thought that H would potentially cheat on me just didn't occur.

He didn't call me yesterday and I was working anyway so I figured he was hungover and feeling sorry for himself. Left it till today and after my work we talked on the phone and he confessed what happened. He was out drinking at a party, slept with her at someone elses house, can't remember much. Didn't use protection.

I am in disbelief . He sounded as shocked as me, apologetic, regretful and angry at himself. He hasn't asked me to forgive him though, just said he's ruined it and he doesn't know what to do.

I don't know what to do either. I know it sounds so pathetic but I still love him and although I can't say I'd trust him to go out drinking again, I still trust him to be honest with me.

Am I crazy stupid to consider forgiving him? Has anyone ever forgiven their partner a one night stand and gone on to enjoy their relationship or is that just a ridiculous notion and I'm setting myself up for further grief? Should I cut my losses and flee?

FWIW H meets some very, very specific ideals I have in a partner and can't imagine meeting anyone else I feel the same way about. I still love him and believe he still loves me so if I have to finish this how do I go about making that happen? I actually don't want to lose what we've got, that much is probably obvious but I need guidance on what to do here as I know I'm not thinking rationally. Can't talk to any of my friends or family about this as they would never accept him again and I'm not ready to take that step.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (111 answers total) 9 users marked this as a favorite
 
You don't need to do anything yet. And you definitely don't need to adhere to the trope that you must break up with someone if they have sex with someone else.

Be kind to yourself. Be kind to him if you want. Only if you want.

You don't need to tell your friends or family, whether you ultimately decide to break up with him or not.

Life is imperfect, things are imperfect and things happen. Especially with alcohol.

Good luck, this is no fun to deal with. Take as long as you need and if your heart tells you that this was a blip and that you should just get past it, do that. If it tells you that it's a significant indicator that you can't trust him when he drinks, then listen to that voice. What does your heart say?
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:12 AM on May 13, 2013 [17 favorites]


Am I crazy stupid to consider forgiving him?

You're not crazy stupid to consider it.

You'd be crazy stupid to actually do it.

Look, he just showed you all his cards, and he ain't got a full house. He's got some growing up to do. Move on and go be awesome elsewhere.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:14 AM on May 13, 2013 [42 favorites]


He was out drinking at a party, slept with her at someone elses house

I was willing to give you "dude did something dumb" until this. That sounds like premeditation. That may or may not matter to you.

There is no crazy; everybody has their own limits. Yes, there are relationships in which someone fucks up and they do move on, but it has everything to do with the two (ish) people involved. There's no formula.

For me, this would cross a line that would need some real hard...no, actually, there'd be no talking out this one. No, there is no "get in a fight/orchestrate an 'accidental' hookup" clause for me. Both circumstances would make me too suspicious.

You are allowed, however, to take as much time as you like to work through this before you make any decisions. He can sleep somewhere else until you do.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:14 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Am I crazy stupid to consider forgiving him? Has anyone ever forgiven their partner a one night stand and gone on to enjoy their relationship or is that just a ridiculous notion and I'm setting myself up for further grief? Should I cut my losses and flee?

It's never stupid to consider forgiving someone. You don't have to forgive him, but you can certainly consider it. People absolutely have forgiven their partners for one-night stands (and worse) and gone on to have a good relationship. That may not be something you can do, but other people definitely do it. I don't know if you should cut your losses and flee.

You sound pretty upset and in shock, which makes sense given that you weren't expecting this at all. It's OK to take some time to think about it. You don't have to decide right away.

It's worrying that you feel like you can't talk to anyone about this. You need support and a friendly shoulder to cry on right now. Getting couples' counseling is a really good idea - dealing with issues like infidelity is exactly what couples' counseling is for. Think about whether this is something you could do.
posted by medusa at 11:15 AM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


This is the hard stuff.

I will say that I would wait to make a decision until later. I COMPLETELY understand if this is a dealbreaker for you, as it is a huge violation of trust. However, when you're with someone who you could potentially spend your life with, one night of stupidity and callousness does not have to be a dealbreaker.

I think if you do decide to stay with him, setting some really strong boundaries about drinking is iportant.
posted by superlibby at 11:16 AM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


Does he want your forgiveness? Or did he "ruin" things in hopes that you would break up with him and the whole thing could be over? You're already long-distance- is there an end date in mind for that situation? What's your ultimate dream for this relationship- do you two want to live together, get married, have kids, any of those things? If that's what you're hoping for and there's not any immediate plans to make it happen, I'd probably let this be the end of it.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:16 AM on May 13, 2013 [42 favorites]


Has anyone ever forgiven their partner a one night stand and gone on to enjoy their relationship

Sure. But other people's relationships have absolutely no bearing on yours. This is a very personal situation and unfortunately there is no one good answer, and especially not one that strangers on the internet will be able to give you. Personally, I wouldn't put up with someone who had an alcohol problem for even five minutes because I just have no personal tolerance for that kind of thing. But not everyone is me.

Something that may help you to distance yourself from this enough to "think straight" is to consider what advice you would give to a friend in your situation. If you and a very good friend were hanging out, and she told you this whole story, about how her boyfriend of over a year has a drinking problem and slept with another woman, how would you respond? What would you tell her to do?
posted by phunniemee at 11:16 AM on May 13, 2013 [7 favorites]


I'm so sorry.

You need to do what feels right for you. Go slow, don't make any huge decisions right away, be kind to yourself - really kind to yourself. Feel your feelings. Write them down. Try to understand how you really feel about this, which will take some time.

It sounds like y'all are going through some hard stuff right now. Couples counseling might be really helpful for both of you.
posted by k8lin at 11:16 AM on May 13, 2013


(I) can't imagine meeting anyone else I feel the same way about.

You know how they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions?

This is the kind of good intention they're talking about.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:17 AM on May 13, 2013 [12 favorites]


Leaving aside the question of should/can you forgive him, whatever you decide, do not have unprotected sex with him until he can produce a negative result from an STD test (and he should probably wait a couple months to take it as well since some STD's have a latency period.)
posted by Asparagus at 11:17 AM on May 13, 2013 [19 favorites]


I think the key thing here is that he doesn't want your forgiveness. He may not want to be in the relationship anymore and he may just be absolute shit at articulating it. He may have decided to do this heinous thing, hoping YOU'D break up with him.

I'm also going to be that guy, and say that someone who claims to have done something out of character while drunk is either a liar or has a significant drinking problem. Either way, neither of these things is desirable in a mate.

You're in different places right now, geographically and mentally.

I have friends who caught their spouses in cheating situations. In one case they've been married for nearly 20 years, they went to counseling and worked on their marriage.

In the other case they never worked it out. She still harbors resentment and anger towards him, and he has to listen to her bitch about it. They're still together, but for a lot of the wrong reasons. But that's what they decided.

My advice to you is to do nothing for now. You need to have an honest, open talk about everything in your relationship. You need to express how angry you are, and he needs to ask for forgiveness if that's what he wants.

BUT, it may be that he wants out and now he IS out, and if that's the case, you have to accept it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:17 AM on May 13, 2013 [18 favorites]


(I missed where he had to move away a few months ago. That will at least mean you don't have to deal with living arrangements while you decide.)
posted by Lyn Never at 11:18 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Am I crazy stupid to consider forgiving him?

Forgiveness is a good eventual goal, because it relieves you of the burden of anger.

That doesn't mean you have to do it right away, or stay with him, or leave him, or anything. Give yourself plenty of time to figure out what you want and how you feel before you make any decisions.
posted by roger ackroyd at 11:18 AM on May 13, 2013 [5 favorites]


He didn't call me yesterday and I was working anyway so I figured he was hungover and feeling sorry for himself. Left it till today and after my work we talked on the phone and he confessed what happened. He was out drinking at a party, slept with her at someone elses house, can't remember much. Didn't use protection.

I am in disbelief . He sounded as shocked as me, apologetic, regretful and angry at himself. He hasn't asked me to forgive him though, just said he's ruined it and he doesn't know what to do.

I don't know what to do either. I know it sounds so pathetic but I still love him and although I can't say I'd trust him to go out drinking again, I still trust him to be honest with me.

Am I crazy stupid to consider forgiving him? Has anyone ever forgiven their partner a one night stand and gone on to enjoy their relationship or is that just a ridiculous notion and I'm setting myself up for further grief? Should I cut my losses and flee?


What if you saw him as the puppy who followed you home, pissed on your feet, crapped on your best dress and then looked up at you with a look that said "But but but I thought you'd be happy I was enjoying this party"?

and let it go. Sounds like you have a good relationship otherwise.
posted by infini at 11:19 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I was always brought up to believe that any amount of cheating is unforgivable. But I know many people who are married to people who cheated on them, and they have forgiven them. It's up to you.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:21 AM on May 13, 2013


I agree with fst, you don't have to go straight to ditching him. Some people find that a necessary response (ie its a dealbreaker situation) but its possible to recognise that people can make mistakes, that you can go through a bad patch etc and still have a working relationship on the other side. You need to figure out whether it is something you are going to be able to get over and if you decide you can, then both of you need to figure out the how of it.

For myself I am a pretty firm believer that people who want to be faithful can generally put themselves out of harm's way fairly easily. So I would be pretty careful about finding out what went on and keep an eye on things for a while.
posted by biffa at 11:22 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


I tend to think that drunk people do a lot of things that would be neato if not for the consequences, and that that's at least understandable. If there are no consequences, sex is neato.

I'm not saying don't dump him or definitely forgive him or whatever -- that's obviously your choice to make -- and I'm certainly not saying he's blameless or that he shouldn't be contrite (far from it). But personally I think I would more concerned about him getting drunk in the future than I would about him cheating in the future. I think if you decide to stay together with him, you should perhaps work on getting him to not get drunk.
posted by Flunkie at 11:22 AM on May 13, 2013


This feels like an attempt on his part (conscious or not) to sever the relationship. The two things that he knows would press buttons for you - cheating and drinking - and he did them both on the same night. Either he knew what he was doing, or he was so out of control he didn't know what he was doing. Neither is good.

Should you forgive him? Like everyone else has said, that's for you to decide. Keep in mind that you can still kick someone to the curb, even though you forgive them for the transgression.
posted by _DB_ at 11:22 AM on May 13, 2013 [11 favorites]


(I) can't imagine meeting anyone else I feel the same way about.

Just about everyone who has ever broken up with someone (or just considered it) has felt this way. Just about everyone is wrong, though it seems impossible to believe it at the time.

I say this not to tell you whether to break up with him or not, but to suggest that the fear of not finding someone else is, in and of itself, not a good reason to hang on to someone.
posted by scody at 11:22 AM on May 13, 2013 [62 favorites]


It doesn't sound pathetic to me to still be in love with him. It sounds like he made a serious mistake and he knows it and he's sorry. It sounds like there might be something worth saving here. Give it some time.
posted by Kwine at 11:22 AM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


This stood out for me...

On Saturday night we had an argument over the phone, the first in a while (we've had a rough patch lately due to an unwanted pregnancy and the subsequent termination) and I hung up on him.

This happened just before the cheating...

I don't want to come across like I'm condoning anything or suggesting a particular course of action, but it sounds to me that you *both* need to consider that this pregnancy and termination may be affecting you more than you'd like to think it is. Again, it doesn't excuse anything, etc. BUT I suspect this is a big deal, and you may need to do more than just argue and hang up on each other about this.

It may be that after you process this, you both will be in a better place to decide what course you want to take in the relationship.
posted by jasper411 at 11:23 AM on May 13, 2013 [34 favorites]


I don't think you have to dump him. If the genders were reversed, I definitely would not tell you to split up over this because in situations where nobody knows what happens it's nice to give people the benefit of the doubt. Therefore I think you can tell him you're on a break until he gets his drinking under control again and maybe keep it casual until you're no longer long-distance. But do give it a day or two to sleep on it. Don't think about it too much, just let it percolate in the back of your head.
posted by bleep at 11:25 AM on May 13, 2013


Don't make any decisions immediately, just sit with your shock and anger for a while.

And think about whether trust means trusting someone never to do something stupid or whether it means trusting that person to be honest with you. People do really stupid shit all the time. All the time. But it takes a big person to be honest and accept honesty. Myself, I value honesty over fidelity like crazy, but that's a very personal decision and I don't expect you to be able to just say, oh okay, that sounds right, and then let go of your hurt and anger over your feelings of betrayal. But do consider it. I think dishonesty has a much greater chance of doing irreparable harm than infidelity.
posted by janey47 at 11:29 AM on May 13, 2013 [6 favorites]


A one-night stand, to which he immediately admitted to? And, everything else about him is wonderful?

Of course you should give him one more chance. He showed you he's a man. Mistakes are a guaranteed part of relationships.

You love him. You want to forgive him. Other partners may come your way, but you know deep inside very few will be like him.
posted by Kruger5 at 11:30 AM on May 13, 2013 [6 favorites]


I don't know what to do either. I know it sounds so pathetic but I still love him and although I can't say I'd trust him to go out drinking again, I still trust him to be honest with me.

Why? You trusted him not to cheat.

But listen. It's not pathetic that you still love him. It makes sense. You've been together a while and this only happened a few days ago.

Here is what to do:

1. Figure out what needs to happen in order for you to start feeling better about this. Be as grandiose as you like. This may take you a little while - days, even - since you will need to calm all the way down first. But figure it out. Figure out what he needs to do, what changes need to happen. Do not involve him in this part of the process. Tell him you need to be out of touch for a little bit, you need some time to yourself.

2. Once you've got it figured out, write it down. Keep it handy.

3. Call him and tell him what needs to happen in order for you to start feeling better about this. Go from there. Don't let him talk you out of things you know are important. Make these things a condition of your continued relationship. If he can't or won't work to make amends, box up his stuff and send it to him and be done with it.

Here are two things you should be considering during all this:

- Be careful about listening to your intuition. You knew a hundred percent that he was honest and loyal and would never cheat on you. Then he cheated on you. You knew he was only responding to his ex to be polite. Then he had unprotected sex with her (you both should probably get tested, by the way). It may be time to start making decisions based not on your gut feeling, but on available information.

- He really needs to stop drinking. Someone with a drinking problem really can't cut down if it's a genuine problem. They need to stop. You may also need to stop, because if he quits then he'll need to be around people who aren't drinking. Are you prepared to take that step?
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:32 AM on May 13, 2013 [9 favorites]


As one ages, one sees that life, is in fact, quite messy. It is not uncommon for people who drink too much and lose control to do things that they (later) regret. Granted, alcohol consumption is not an excuse – especially as this is something that you and he have identified as a problem – but it is not by any means uncommon. You are certainly not the first people in history to arrive at this juncture, in fact, I would say it probably happens to many people.

As far as what to do now, you are in a state of shock it sounds like, thus probably not in a position to make rational decisions. That being said, the decision to fall in love to begin with is not entirely rational, and nothing along the way is rational, so why would we expect full rationality now?

You probably need some distance from your New Knowledge to think about what you want to do here. And there's not going to be one answer. You'll probably go through quite a lot of answers in your head in the next few hours/days.

The interesting thing that I read in your story is the unwanted pregnancy and termination. That is a hugely stressful event, on both individuals and on the relationship itself. I would deeply inquire as to what happened there, for I would expect your answer lies within.

Why did you decide to terminate the pregnancy? Was that a mutual decision? Was it based on external circumstances? Was it truly a mutual decision?

The reason being that if a couple was planning on eventually having a baby together anyway, a surprise pregnancy may well simply move up the timeline. If you were deeply in love and talking about marriage and family, and see that you are going to have a baby, why not get it on with it and just have the baby?

You could have been at the wrong place and time in your lives. Maybe you wanted to have more money, or be further along in career, or a host of other reasons. But the fact remains that if you guys were planning on having a family together, and the opportunity then arose, you actively decided not to have a family together. Why did you make that decision? I would presume that the answers therein will help illuminate your decision from here.

A surprise pregnancy basically forces the issue of "what are we doing here?". As mentioned, you guys were given the issue, and you decided to terminate. Why?

In the case that you hadn't had the talk about a long life together and a family, got pregnant, and decided to terminate, then it's a very stressful event that may have been the test of your relationship. And the relationship may well have just failed that test.

And then the consideration of the alcohol. The situation sounds very stress anyway, but if you are a person who's previous coping mechanism involved alcohol, enough stress can easily lead one to a place that they do not themselves recognise. It is very easy to sit in the High Chair and cast the eyes down, saying "but he knew. he was drunk but he still chose to do this". No one will argue that point. And if you are going to make that kind of decision, it is a very short conversation.

If you are willing to entertain the confusion of the moment, and what his choice means, it sounds like very escapist behaviour. He got drunk. He went for an easy option. And then he told you. What does that sound like? A man coping with stress? A man looking for a way out of the relationship? A man who is confused?

Your problem seems to be trust in this case – as I have read it. And how can you trust him again? Lots of people have infidelity in their relationships, and things continue per normal. Someone cheats, they discuss, life goes on. Other people push The Big Button and blow everything up. There is no rule that says cheating has to end a relationship. It depends on the relationship before the cheating occurred. If everything was fine, and this was Something That Happened One Night, then have the talks, rebuild the trust, and move on. If the relationship was already struggling a bit, the cheating is not the problem in itself, but the result of the existing problem.

So in short, I think there are two topics of investigation which will help you determine what to do next:

1) What was the meaning of the termination of the pregnancy? Why did you terminate it?
2) What was the quality of the relationship going into the cheating? Was this a random aberration that you can leave behind? Or is it the Big Signal that it is time to move on?

When you can answer these questions for yourself, I think you will have more clarity about what you want to do next.

As far as the timeline, there is nothing that says you have to have an immediate answer to these questions. Maybe it takes an evening. Maybe a few days. Maybe a week. There are no rules, but you should give yourself the space to consider what really happened beyond the infidelity. When you add up the signs, what do they mean?

Good luck and be strong. You're not alone. This happens to lots of people. It doesn't mean anything other than you need to have a think about where you are in your life, and what is important to you now.
posted by nickrussell at 11:33 AM on May 13, 2013 [19 favorites]


I see a lot of people here saying that forgiving him and staying in the relationship is a viable path, and I guess it is, but honestly I'm really surprised by the lack of DTMFA advice.

Look, yes it's possible that you may be able to forgive him for this and the two of you could move past this, but let's not downplay it either. This is a serious betrayal. Aside from the emotional pain he's causing you, he didn't even use protection, so he's putting you at a health risk.

As prior posters have noted, there are examples of couples who have overcome infidelity, but in most cases it was after a greater investment had already been made in the relationship, and with a lot of counseling and hard work.

(On top of that, it sounds like there are other issues associated with this relationship -- the argument about the pregancy, drinking, and distance.)
posted by Asparagus at 11:34 AM on May 13, 2013 [7 favorites]


To forgive him you need to

1) Want to forgive him. You are not obligated to do so.
2) Be able to forgive him. You might be too angry to get over this ever. That's ok.
3) Live with yourself for forgiving him. You shouldn't feel used, resentful, or taken advantage of for forgiving him. If you do, you won't work out as a couple anyway.
4) Not use this against him. Forgiveness doesn't come with strings attached. (Not cheating and being honest are not strings, they are absolute minimums). If this comes up in unrelated arguments, your relationship will not work.
5) Wait before you decide. Take some time to feel whatever you are feeling, a decision isn't needed right now.
posted by Garm at 11:41 AM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


If someone uses alcohol and drunken, unprotected sex to combat anger or a problem with their primary partner, I would argue that they are immature and irresponsible in many other areas of life, and this is them showing their true colors. That's not a very kind or forgiving viewpoint, but it's something to consider. I'd forgive him, but maintain your standards and let him go because you can definitely find someone else who will not go get drunk and sleep with someone else in order to deal after the two of you have an argument. Your mileage may vary though, because it's up to you and only you to determine if this is the deal breaker it would be for a lot of other people (myself included). Good luck and lots of hugs and support. This is a sucky situation all around.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 11:42 AM on May 13, 2013 [9 favorites]


I also thought this might be his cowardly way of breaking up with you. I dunno.


Tough stuff comes up in life ALL the time. The termination can stand-in for any other major life stressor, and it's still his choices and reactions that are at serious issue here.

If you can,t have an argument and trust that your partner won't binge drink and do something stupid (and he's just demonstrated he can not be trusted in this important way) then I really don't see what there is to pin future hopes on.

You can't build life-long stability on a shitty foundation, even if every other ingredient is there.

Take some time to think things through. I hope in the future looking back you will feel you dodged a bullet.

I am 1000% sure you can find another handsome and awesome guy, someone you can trust in life's Big Moments, both good and bad. This I know for certain.
posted by jbenben at 11:42 AM on May 13, 2013 [14 favorites]


Our phones are open to one another, we know each others email/FB passwords

Why? Control is not the same as trust, and in this case, it didn't help anyway.
posted by iviken at 11:47 AM on May 13, 2013 [14 favorites]


What most people want in a committed relationship is to find one person they can trust completely. He just proved you cannot trust him completely.

It is not hard to remain sexually faithful to someone. You simply don't have sex with anyone else. One doesn't slip on a banana peel and land with your penis in someone's vagina. You don't reach for your coffee cup and suddenly your tongue lands in someone's mouth. A decision is made, and he made the decision to have sex with someone else. He chose to break your trust. Is that what you want in a relationship? I hope not, because you deserve better.

Drinking is *never* an excuse - for cheating, for violence, for driving while drunk.

And there is much truth in Cool Papa Bell's comments. Read them again.
posted by MexicanYenta at 11:49 AM on May 13, 2013 [16 favorites]


There is a *huge* difference between someone who cheats and immediately comes clean with an expression of contrition and willingness to work it out and someone who doesn't. I've been through both. One situation makes you feel like a doormat and the other not necessarily so.

I don't know what you should do, but this is not an automatic dumpable offense. I guess I would say any relationship should become stronger over time. After these events, is it possible your relationship can still grow stronger?
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 11:49 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Should you forgive him, sooner or later? Yes, absolutely. Its for your own sake.
Should you take him back? Well. THAT is a different question. I don't know. You'd have to answer that.

If you do give him a chance, he has to earn your trust. He has to prove he will be a safe person in the future. He will never be perfect, obviously, but he can't mess up like this again for a long while.

I strongly suspect he is an alcoholic. This means, he should NEVER drink again. You should not have booze in the house, any more than you would leave crack around a junkie.

Therapy, for both of you individually and together, is probably a good plan.

Feel free to me-mail me if you want!
posted by Jacen at 11:49 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also, people (and perhaps you) are thinking that maybe this happened because you were going through a rough patch. That may be true. But a man in a committed relationship is committed to working through the rough patch. A man doesn't react to a rough patch by having sex with someone else - only a boy does that.
posted by MexicanYenta at 11:54 AM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


I do not think this is an immediately dumpable offense. It sounds like you a have a great thing going. The fact that he came clean right away and appears to be contrite is a good sign. This could be an opportunity to do some work and deepen the relationship, if both of you want to do that. It sounds like you started that process with the terminated pregnancy, but that there is more to do.

His drinking also needs to be part of the conversation. If someone did that to me the way he did it, there'd just need to be a blanket "no alcohol" rule. He should realize that he can't drink and behave responsibly. Hopefully he wants to live a responsible life and will give up drinking.

But I do think this is salvageable, and I don't think we live in a one-strike-and-you're-out world, not when you have something good going.

Good luck!
posted by alms at 11:55 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Here is what I understood:
- in a long distance relationship with a guy
- he drinks more than you are comfortable with from time to time
- he has been repeatedly messaged by an ex-girlfriend. Doesn't really encourage her (as far as you know), but it doesn't sound like he did anything to discourage her either.
- you guys have been in a rough patch for a while following an accidently pregnacy and abortion.
- you have a fight over the phone
- he responds by getting drunk and having unprotected sex with an ex-girlfriend
- confesses and declares that he knows he "ruined it".


Cheating, for me, is just the end all be all dealbreaker for me. I believe very strongly that no one does anything drunk that they hadn't at least considered sober. That he was drunk doesn't really factor for me, except in a "He put himself in a high relationship threat situation (ie. ex girlfriend) and then actively made it more dangerous by getting drunk". He HAD to know that his ex was looking to hook up, and he HAD to know that getting drunk around her probably wasn't a good idea. Drunk or not, he still made the choice to cheat. As far as I understand she didn't rape him. He chose to cheat. He chose to be in a situation where he would be able to cheat, and then he chose to cheat, then he chose to NOT USE PROTECTION. That is a level of betrayal and harm that I can't move past. Everything else just makes it worse. And honestly? I think this was his shitty coward ass way of trying to end it with you. Maybe it was the distance, maybe it was the rough patch, maybe it was the ex, maybe the relationship had just run its course for him.... whatever the reason, it sounds to me that your relationship is done.


As MexicanYenta said, healthy committed relationships are about having full trust in someone, knowing they'll be there for you, knowing that they value the relationship as much as you do. This guy has just shown you in a pretty horrible and harmful way that you CANNOT trust him and that he won't be there for you, and that he clearly doesn't value your relationship.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 11:57 AM on May 13, 2013 [39 favorites]


he slept with the old fling who has been facebook messaging him? or are those unrelated things?

if it IS the old fling, I am TOTALLY on board with the DTMFA, talking to old flings and then inviting them out drinking with you is premeditated cheating.

if it was an unrelated incident, just something else that has been bothering you, then I think see how you feel. trust is hard to regain and is very crucial in relationships or else everything else starts to fall apart, so if you decide to forgive him I think you've REALLY gotta forgive him, you can't use it for leverage or anything ever.

everyone is different, but I think it's possible to get over it if you really want to. but definitely don't let fear of being alone or not finding someone else be your reason, because you sound great, and you will be able to, if you need or want to.
posted by euphoria066 at 11:58 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Um, he's not very loyal to you. It doesn't have to do with her messaging him. Women can't homewreck. She doesn't have magical powers. He's selfish. DTMFA if you have any self respect.
posted by discopolo at 11:59 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Mod note: This is a response from an anonymous commenter.
I was your boyfriend in several relationships - sweet, amazing, but occasionally I'd get really drunk and hook up with someone else. I loved the people I was with, but I had a drinking problem - not the kind where I can't stop drinking, but the kind where I drink way too much at once and self-destruct. I also suffered from some self-esteem issues where I derived much of my self-worth out of pretty girls giving me the time of day. Very much so when in long-distance relationships.

Often it was with ex-girlfriends or friends who, in the light of day, I'd never want anything to do with.

There's really no answer to this other than - if you want to forgive him and he wants your forgiveness, he HAS, HAS, HAS to stop drinking. Full stop. No occasionally getting hammered with harmless friends. No drinking together more than a couple of drinks (this includes when you are together.) People who are out of control drunk can and will think they have it under control because they haven't been out of control in a while. It's all or nothing. His life needs to change if the outcome is going to change.

These may be conditions that one or both of you just don't want to have to go through, in which case your relationship is either over or destined to let you down again. Honestly - the next time he's out of control drunk, there's a very good chance he hurts you again. Remember that every time he just wants a "night out with the boys, just like the olden days."

I say this as someone engaged to be married and heavily in love - the next time I get out of control drunk, I probably destroy my relationship. I know that and it's why I stopped drinking like that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:01 PM on May 13, 2013 [24 favorites]


Moved in together after a month and although we've had our ups and downs, I've never felt this way about anyone before.
It's not common in a healthy relationship to have notable ups and downs so early on.
In the past I've been lied to, deceived and cheated on (and been a cheat too tbh), but with him I was naturally faithful, never even looked at another man and just knew he felt the same way. ... He doesn't leer or even slyly check girls out in front of me, and while I know that he looks at porn for a few minutes now and then to get himself off when we're apart it doesn't bother me because he is honest with me about it.
It's healthy to look. You say a lot of always/never black/white kinds of statements. There's nothing wrong with looking. And if there's a pattern of cheating in your life (whether as the cheater or the cheatee, or both) then you want to think about what you're accepting as ok in a relationship/partner that may be a red flag to someone else. (Not that you would be responsible for another person's cheating, just that you may be able to recognize a cheater sooner.)
Recently an old fling of his from years ago has been messaging him persistently on FB. It irritated me a little as it clearly states on FB he is in a relationship but still she was email bombing him, despite him barely responding except once or twice to be polite.
You're painting him as a passive victim of another person's "email bombing." He could easily have said "got myself a great girl, seeya!" but he didn't.
More than anything I felt sorry for her as she is young and has several kids in a blatantly unhappy relationship. She also has alcohol addiction and while she may have been attractive once, she is really physically unappealing now. . Didn't think in a hundred years that she would be a threat.
Cheating has little to do with the person the cheater cheats with. It's unproductive to focus on how unworthy this other woman is.
He sounded as shocked as me, apologetic, regretful and angry at himself. He hasn't asked me to forgive him though, just said he's ruined it and he doesn't know what to do.
He should be asking you to forgive him. He should be focused on you. But he's not. He's focused on him.
FWIW H meets some very, very specific ideals I have in a partner and can't imagine meeting anyone else I feel the same way about.
This is the absolute wrong reason to stay with someone.
posted by headnsouth at 12:01 PM on May 13, 2013 [18 favorites]


Also, I know forgiving sounds attractive but he's not stupid. He knew what he was doing. He just doesn't have the character to own up to it.
posted by discopolo at 12:02 PM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


I wouldn't make any major decisions - even whether or not to forgive him - until you both have had a cooling off period. Perspective is a great thing and this situation is screaming for it. I would take some time to think about what you know, think about what you don't and decide if you want/need more information before moving on the $25,000 question of what am I going to do next?
posted by Leezie at 12:03 PM on May 13, 2013


The fact that you had recently terminated a pregnancy and he has since cheated on you has caused me to ignore all the wonderful qualities about him that you speak specifically to. Cheating is a cruel thing to do to someone you love and are in a monogamous relationship with but in this context it feels especially awful. DTMFA.
posted by teamnap at 12:05 PM on May 13, 2013 [14 favorites]


He didn't use protection. This is a really big deal. Do not have unprotected sex with him until he gets tested. You should probably get tested yourself, because while you say you are sure that this is the first time he's done something like this, you don't know.

Recently an old fling of his from years ago has been messaging him persistently on FB. It irritated me a little as it clearly states on FB he is in a relationship but still she was email bombing him, despite him barely responding except once or twice to be polite.

One of the things that's so upsetting about situations where one partner cheats on the other is that it kind of calls into question all the things you thought you knew and understood about the relationship. It tarnishes the happy little narrative you have about being totally in love and only having eyes for each other. He didn't have to respond to an ex's numerous messages to be "polite", he chose to stay in contact with her, he made plans to see her and get drunk, and then had unprotected sex with her. It's pretty troubling to me that after you went through the ordeal of having to terminate a pregnancy and the difficulty you both were having with it, and then he goes and cheats on your and doesn't use protection is particularly awful.

He's got a drinking problem that's he doesn't appear to actually be addressing, he recently moved out of the apartment you shared and now you only see each other on weekends, and now has done something not only disloyal and hurtful to you, but that could put your health at risk.

The way you're feeling isn't pathetic at all.
posted by inertia at 12:07 PM on May 13, 2013 [12 favorites]


Other partners may come your way, but you know deep inside very few will be like him

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

I won't even try to tell you if you should forgive him or not. I will say that there are a lot of red flags, including how he acted after. It does almost seem, as others have implied, that maybe he did this in hopes of ending things, which would really be an awful thing to do.

And as just said, if he does want to save your relationship, he has to stop drinking. Not cut back, not only on special occasions, but full stop. Otherwise, this will happen again.

But don't stay with him because you feel that he has such unique qualities that he's irreplaceable, that he's a one in a million guy that you were lucky to find, that what you share is unlike anything you could possibly have with anyone else. These are lies, and lies that are easily believed when you are hurt.

Every relationship is different, of course. You won't find a clone of this one, and you shouldn't want one. But you can find a relationship that fulfills you just as much, even if it takes some time. And this time, hopefully with someone without the drinking problem.
posted by justgary at 12:13 PM on May 13, 2013 [5 favorites]


"Drinking is *never* an excuse - for cheating, for violence, for driving while drunk"

No, but it's a perfectly valid explanation for bad behavior. The documented effects of alcohol consumpion include:

* Overall improvement in mood and possible euphoria
* Increased self-confidence
* Increased sociability
* Decreased Anxiety

and a reduced ability to evaluate the consequences of the drinker's behavior. Alcohol affects how your brain works, and claiming otherwise is willfully ignoring loads of scientific evidence.

The guy made a mistake and owned up to it. He's done a bad thing, but that does not make him evil, or some kind of moral pariah.
posted by The Blue Olly at 12:18 PM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


DTMFA if you have any self respect.

OP: Self respect comes from making decisions that feel true to you as an individual, not from following a predetermined script about relationships and consequences. You can absolutely have self respect and decide to forgive him and stay with him. You can have self respect if you forgive him, but end the relationship. You can have self respect even if you burn his shit in a pile on the lawn and take a few years to forgive him.

Your self respect wasn't given to you by him and it cannot be taken away by him either.

Time, time time time. You are, in a way, fortunate to have the distance here; some silence and solitude will help you to clarify what your truest, best path will be. You say he hasn't asked for forgiveness. Meditate on that--as others have said, it's significant. But it also means that you aren't under any pressure from anyone else to make a decision. So take advantage of that lack of pressure, and sit with the new reality for awhile.

After you've done some sitting, envision all the possible scenarios. Which ones make you queasy? Which ones make you feel calm? Which ones make you feel sad and anxious, and which make you feel sad, but accepting? This will help guide you as you move forward.
posted by like_a_friend at 12:20 PM on May 13, 2013 [21 favorites]


The thing your boyfriend is lacking is wanting you back, wanting you to forgive him, and also saying he won't do it again. From what I read all he said was he screwed up, not that he regretted it, wanted to quit drinking, wouldn't hurt you again, would understand if you left, etc.

CAN someone move on from cheating, maybe. Should you? I don't know, I'm not you and can only give you MY opinion.

I assume, however, from your post that cheating is a deal-breaker. My opinion, dump him.

If you do feel that cheating is a deal-breaker, then you have to stand up for yourself and not let it slide. If you say one thing and do another then your word in the relationship means nothing and why should he treat anything you say as serious? If you have said in the past that cheating is a no-go then if you let it slide this time, why wouldn't you let it slide the next, and the one after that...

There are more problems than the cheating it seems. Don't stay with a cheater. I wouldn't. You deserve better.

I think you need to take the time to evaluate what you want in a relationship, and if this one is worth working through. I think there are others who can "make you feel like you never felt before."

I was engaged young. I thought he was my one. After finding my REAL soulmate, that first feeling seemed insanely shallow and pointless. I now have true love and trust. You need that too, not someone who will drink excessively and cheat on you after a fight.
posted by Crystalinne at 12:23 PM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


Based on what you've got going here, I think it would be worth taking some time to think, and if you decide to go forward with him, do it on the grounds that he undergo and complete some form of alcohol abuse counseling.

No delays, no exceptions. Mandatory, and now. How could you ever grow closer to a person who is potentially always just Too Many Drinks away from throwing away your life together?

The drinking ends. If he balks at that, then you know how bad it really is, and you'll feel much better about deciding to end things.

As others have said, alcohol abuse can take many forms. It isn't necessarily about drinking constantly, or being abusive to others. That anonymous comment that cortex included tells the whole story. I'd linger over that one for a while if I were you.
posted by Julia F***ing Sugarbaker at 12:24 PM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


there are bad dudes and there are good dudes. and sometimes the good dudes turn into bad dudes, even if it's just an accident. but even if it's just temporary and an accident, why would you want to waste your time with a bad dude when there are other good dudes out there?

right now, your guy is a bad dude. and maybe he'll turn back into a good dude later, but don't wait around for it. maybe if he gets his shit together, stops drinking and starts committing to you, then try again, but don't let him write any checks his ass can't cash right now.
posted by kerning at 12:24 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Has anyone ever forgiven their partner a one night stand and gone on to enjoy their relationship or is that just a ridiculous notion and I'm setting myself up for further grief?

A friend of mine was cheated on similar to your situation (drunken one-night-stand, boyfriend confessed right away). She was able to forgive her boyfriend and their relationship recovered, but it wasn't easy. There will be further grief, there is absolutely no avoiding that if you want to stay with him.

Give yourself some time to think about what you'll need from him. Then lay it all out on the table and do not allow him to talk you down from what you need. If he wants to earn your forgiveness, he will work for it. And he will have to accept that he may do everything you ask, and you may still not be able to trust him anymore. You will have to accept that he may not be willing to work for your forgiveness. He may just want to walk away and start fresh with someone else. You may have good intentions to forgive him and to trust him again, but you may not be able to. These are things that could bring you further grief. Only you can decide if it's worth the try.

I would suggest that he needs to deal with his drinking problem, and he may need professional help. Have you ever heard the adage, "You can't trust an addict"? It's true. If he doesn't stop drinking, he will use it as an excuse to hurt you again. You do not need to support him through this, you don't need to shoulder any additional burdens right now. If he is serious about earning your trust back and being a worthy partner to you, he will man up and do it.

He needs to learn how to assert boundaries when it comes to other women. Whatever this other woman did, it's irrelevant. She didn't owe you or your relationship a thing. Your boyfriend could have shut her down but he chose not to. Instead he chose to put himself in a compromising situation with her. Maybe he liked the attention, was flattered by her advances, etc. This is yet another issue that your boyfriend needs to fix, or you can expect it to rear its ugly head again.

Lastly, right now it might seem like there is no one else out there for you but that's just not true. People lose partners all the time, and I'm not just referring to break-ups. Think of the people who lose husbands and wives due to sudden medical illness, tragic accidents or crimes. More often then not, they're able to find love again. I assure you, your boyfriend is not so special that you'll never feel the same way about anybody else. And for goodness sake, there's got to be someone else who doesn't have a drinking problem and would never cheat on you. That's not an especially high bar to reach.

Take your time, you've been through a lot. Process it with people who love you and respect your choices. Good luck.
posted by keep it under cover at 12:28 PM on May 13, 2013 [7 favorites]


Am I crazy stupid to consider forgiving him?

No. It is the opposite. Since we have to forgive everyone, the stupid thing is to consider not forgiving him. But, "forgive him" does not necessarily mean "stay in this relationship". It is perfectly acceptable to forgive him and never see him again. On the other hand, I have known relationships that have survived infidelity.

I cannot tell you whether or not you should stay in a relationship with him. He did a horrible thing. For what it is worth, the person you describe is not someone I would want for my daughter. The drinking problem would be the big factor. You say "someone can only change so much in a certain amount of time," but if any of your plans depend on him changing, your plans are not well-founded.
posted by Tanizaki at 12:28 PM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


Man-boy needs to learn to face life without alcohol screen. He needs AA or whatever will give him some spine, you need AL-Anon if you think this long distance relationship is worth saving.
posted by Cranberry at 12:35 PM on May 13, 2013


Also, a lot of people have focused on the ways in which his confession was sub-optimal. He didn't say x, he didn't say y...which means he must feel Z, absolutely.

OK. His actions and speech are relevant, yes. But they should not be viewed as a 100% accurate portrayal of his inner state. People under tremendous stress are not super-great at expressing themselves, you know?

He may not have asked for forgiveness because in his mind, it's impossible. He might not have asked because he doesn't want to pressure you. He may not have asked because he doesn't want it, and was sabotaging his way out of the relationship. All of these things are equally possible, and you won't know which is true without lots of discussion.*

It's really easy for those of us who spend tons of hours reading sites like Ask MeFi, or really working on interpersonal relations, to assume that everyone we're dealing with understands Best Practices for the full range of relationship experiences and will deploy them flawlessly unless they intend to be a dick. But not everyone grows up with/has learned the Perfect Confession script, and in fact it's safer to assume most people have no fucking idea what they're doing ever. ;)

*you are in no way obligated to HAVE those discussions.
posted by like_a_friend at 12:38 PM on May 13, 2013 [13 favorites]


If it were something like a fight that was unfortunately timed with a flirty ex's being in his space, I'd still say, a good boyfriend would stay sober, because of what could very well would likely happen while drunk. Moreover, this seems like a time where you need support, yes? Sure, your relationship took a hit from the pregnancy, he may have taken a hit, but you're the one who had the physical experiences. So, rather than be Good Supportive Boyfriend, he is Worst Guy Ever and claims he knows he 'ruined it.'

Soooo all the available evidence indicates that he is having a hard time being a Good Boyfriend and this when you most need it. I would believe him and cut ties as swiftly and decisively as possible. Forgive him when you're able to. But that's a separate issue from you've got a guy who is seriously acting out. This is written by somebody who spent until age 32 if not after acting out.
posted by angrycat at 12:41 PM on May 13, 2013


Does he want your forgiveness? Or did he "ruin" things in hopes that you would break up with him and the whole thing could be over?
Yes, this is important information to ascertain.

A very similar thing happened to me when I was in a long-term live-in relationship with someone who had (has) a severe drinking problem. He had been receiving slews of messages from a very persistent ex via FB and text, we had a dumb fight over something like housework, I hung up on him, and his reaction was to immediately ring up said ex and invite her over to someone else's house in order to get smashed and have sex with her -- sans condom, natch, because as long as you're living dangerously by cheating, why not up the ante and make it a public health hazard while you're at it?

He came home still wasted beyond belief, and apologized in a half-hearted way that attempted to make me admit to at least partial culpability because I was the one who hung up on him. I tried to forgive him, I really did; I don't think I've ever tried so hard to do anything in my life. I wanted to forgive him because I have never loved anyone that much, and I still feel as though my basic capacity to love that much has been permanently debilitated (this was almost five years ago).
At first, he tried to pass it off as an accident when of course, it wasn't -- even just purely physiologically speaking, sex NEVER comes as an accident, shock, or surprise between consenting adults. Then he tried to blame it on the alcohol. Then he tried to overcompensate by temporarily becoming The Best Boyfriend Ever. None of it worked; I could not overlook the fact that he had done everything he had done with purpose, foresight, and awareness.
Seriously, fuck using intoxicants as an excuse to treat anyone like shit, least of all your committed partner. If a person tries to tell you that consuming booze "makes" them do things they swear they'd never even remotely contemplated doing in their entire lives, they're probably an alcoholic, but definitely a liar.

An important order of business will be eventually overcoming your current state of shock and disbelief in order to internalize the fact that your boyfriend didn't just temporarily forget that you existed, or somehow accidentally overlook the fact that you had recently been in a fight and thus that you were likely feeling rather emotionally raw and unsupported. He knew you were probably sad and waiting to hear from him, he knew he was supposed to be faithful, and he knew exactly what he was doing when he slept with this woman -- with every additional sip of alcohol and every nudge to move a little bit closer to her, he knew. Even after he had made the decision to have sex with her, he still had time to pause and put on a condom, but he chose not to do so -- again, chose. Every single thing he did that led up to that moment required him to make a conscious decision. And I'm sorry, but he's probably telling you that he barely remembers what happened because he doesn't want you to ask about it, doesn't want to hash it out any further, and doesn't want to dig himself deeper by providing any more incriminating details. He already knows he's in the shit, he doesn't want to make it worse for himself.

The bottom line is that your boyfriend wanted to have sex with another woman, and you weren't there to stop him, so he did it. Is that forgivable? Sometimes, sure. But he could just as easily do it again; whether or not that happens is not something that is under your jurisdiction or control, and now both of you know it. Of course you still love him. Love is not something that flips on and off like a switch.

First, breathe. Keep breathing and focus exclusively on continuing to do so until your brain stops spinning like a top and your world stops feeling like a snowglobe that's just been smashed up after a high-octane spin cycle in a washing machine. You might want to temporarily hire a therapist to help you out with your grief processing if you don't feel as though you can turn to your family or friends. Next, go to Planned Parenthood for a full STD workup -- no matter how insistent he is that this was a one-off deal and he has already come clean about absolutely any/all dishonesty and/or unfaithfulness, you know now that he is a selfish liar, and your biggest responsibility is to protect yourself. After that, you just need TIME. With enough time, you will gain enough knowledge to work with going forward. There is no need to make any big decisions right now.

Am I crazy stupid to consider forgiving him?
Not crazy or stupid, just human. Love is indeed blind.

Has anyone ever forgiven their partner a one night stand and gone on to enjoy their relationship or is that just a ridiculous notion and I'm setting myself up for further grief?
In every instance where I have heard of this occurring, actual forgiveness has never been involved. Instead, what has resulted has been a discomfiting admixture of an outward-facing veil of forgiveness with a foundation of poisonous resentment that either grows, fades, or merely simmers along at a low boil as time goes on. How much grief you are willing to endure?

Should I cut my losses and flee?
In my situation, my heart aches for the years I wasted between when the shit hit the fan and when I finally gathered the nerve to get the hell out. My ex was also uniquely respectful of and non-objectifying toward women (or so I believed), which was such an important trait for a prospective mate to possess that I let it overshadow all the bullshit. In your situation, my heart aches for you. You are the only person who can answer this question.
posted by electroshock blues at 12:45 PM on May 13, 2013 [11 favorites]


Mod note: This is a reply from the asker.
Thanks for the overwhelming response. I appreciate the diversity of insights here and it's helping me a lot to think this through, each and every one, thank you.

The pregnancy was unwanted by both of us. We had plans to travel next year.. I also have a recently diagnosed and as yet untreated medical condition that would affect the healthy development of a baby. However when we discussed it, we agreed that we could try for another one in a couple of years. Neither of us are particularly broody at the moment though. The reason it caused a rocky patch is that when I was pregnant I was kerayzee with the hormonal shift, it was difficult for both of us. The termination was also traumatic and I experienced some resentment that he wasn't as supportive as I hoped. We got over it though. Not a contributing factor to this cheating incident.

We are engaged to be married, I have a ring on my finger. I have had my reservations though, because yes, I downplayed it in my original question but I too suspect he has an alcohol addiction. He doesn't drink every day, not even every week and sometimes we drink and it's good fun, fine but he used to and on occasion still gets out of control drunk to the point of not knowing what he's doing. I've asked him to get help and he has said it's something he needs to fix himself.

Ok, maybe it's not healthy to share passwords etc but with my past experiences he offered it as as a means to show me he had nothing to hide. I definitely do not believe for a minute that anything about this was premeditated.

We've been speaking on the phone just now, he's been sick all day (not drink related) He is finding it hard to talk about and having a lot of very negative, 'I'm good for nothing and nobody' type of chat. Yes as Headnsouth pointed out, all very much about him. I don't think he believes he's worth my forgiveness. Maybe he's right.

A big part of this , as mind bogglingly ridiculous as it will sound, is that I don't feel I will ever trust anyone again the way I trust him. I must be crazy to even admit that because I realise it probably doesn't make sense but yes, not thinking right at the moment. Also a factor that will sound strange to most is that he and his family are from my home town. I always wanted to settle down with someone from home (after having lived in the city for years and travelled met/been in relationships with people from all over, I found the comfort of being with someone from my home area unbelievably wonderful and unfortunately I come from a very little place and pretty much everyone is married off by now or are unemployed no good types.

He's 100% definitely not cheated before, that's a fact and I also don't think this was an effort to get me to dump him because H may have alcohol issues but he's no coward.

The girl he slept with is the one who was FB messaging him. She was never his girlfriend just a fling from years ago and the email responses he gave her were absolute bare minimal, except when she started with "I'm so low I need someone to talk to" when he gave her a bit more chat. I didn't see the harm in it then and even now I don't see it was any form of premeditation. Believe me if you were in my situation you would understand this to be true. I'm not being naive here, there is no way on earth he was angling to sleep with her. He is literally sick at having done what he has done. This doesn't make it any better or easier though.

Again, I really appreciate all the opinions and advice. It's helping me feel less alone here. Thank you.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:48 PM on May 13, 2013


I forgave a boyfriend for what he claimed was a one-night stand (I don't know the truth because I was out of town for two weeks.) He didn't want to discuss it.

Then came the night he never came home and called me the next morning to say he'd been mugged and woke up in bed with a stranger. Turned out he's gotten black-out drunk, fell off a skate-board and went home with one of our friends who declared her love for him that night. I forgave that too. He didn't want to talk about his drinking problems or boundaries.

Then came the night that he got black-out drunk, screamed at me for hating him, and fell down in the bathroom, narrowly missing smashing his head on the sink.

Then came the unfolding romance, in public, right in front of my eyes, with the high-school senior (ten years younger than us) that he claimed was "just friends." And told me I was crazy and had a jealousy problem and was ruining our relationship. I finally figured out he was fucking her and dumped him.

I now have a zero tolerance policy on cheating.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:49 PM on May 13, 2013 [13 favorites]


Am I crazy stupid to consider forgiving him?

"Forgive" and "repair our relationship" are two different decisions, not two alternatives in one decision.

You could forgive him and repair the relationship.
You could forgive him and end it.
You could not forgive him and end it.
You could not forgive him, and also maintain the relationship. This last option is highly undesirable.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:49 PM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


I've asked him to get help and he has said it's something he needs to fix himself.

Nope nope nope. It's clear that he cannot fix it himself. If he doesn't truly want to get outside help, this is unfixable. Maybe forgivable, but still unfixable.

I'm sorry. I went through something similar with an ex, though thank God we were only together a few months.
posted by desjardins at 12:53 PM on May 13, 2013 [9 favorites]


You get to decide whether or not to forgive the sexual indiscretion, but forgiveness is not going to change the fact that he has a UNTREATED DRINKING PROBLEM!

Cheating or not, this guy will continue to be a problem for you unless and until he decides to grow up.

Trust me on this. Before I sought help for my drinking problem, I couldn't stop ripping other people's lives apart with my "bad behavior". Tread lightly.
posted by strelitzia at 1:01 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


[...}if any of your plans depend on him changing, your plans are not well-founded.

Read this over and over again. Write this on your bathroom mirror, so you see it every day.
posted by MexicanYenta at 1:01 PM on May 13, 2013 [14 favorites]


I have had my reservations though, because yes, I downplayed it in my original question but I too suspect he has an alcohol addiction.

This is the most important part of the whole situation, I think.
posted by selfmedicating at 1:01 PM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


I've asked him to get help and he has said it's something he needs to fix himself.

Please remind him that yes, he is going to have to fix himself - but that doesn't mean all alone, without support. It doesn't have to be AA, although their ubiquity makes it pretty easy to find a meeting any time, anywhere. But vanishingly few addicts manage to become ex-addicts all by their lonesome. Even with all the most perfect support in the world, the work is still going to have to be his.

This also reeks to me of someone who is finding any and every excuse to not have to really deal with the fact that they might have to quit drinking.

I nth the suggestion that you find yourself an Al Anon meeting that fits your schedule and style.
posted by rtha at 1:03 PM on May 13, 2013


I've asked him to get help and he has said it's something he needs to fix himself.

No matter what else you decide to do, please do not marry him or have children with him until this happens.
posted by Brody's chum at 1:12 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think that him getting outside help, whether therapy, AA, or other, should be a hard pre-requisite for a continued relationship and marriage.

Absolute, full stop, no exceptions, expecting him to fix this without any outside input is setting yourself up for a repeat.
posted by mercredi at 1:16 PM on May 13, 2013 [5 favorites]


He doesn't drink every day, not even every week and sometimes we drink and it's good fun, fine but he used to and on occasion still gets out of control drunk to the point of not knowing what he's doing.

It doesn't matter if he doesn't drink every day.

It doesn't matter if he doesn't drink every week.

If he ever gets out of control drunk to the point of not knowing what he's doing, he needs to stop drinking, ever. You don't want to be with someone who drinks, blacks out, and then wakes up having done god knows what. Hopefully he doesn't want to be that person.

I have a dear friend who was like this. Sometimes she could handle her alcohol, sometimes she couldn't. Now she's been sober and in AA for several years and she's much happier for it.
posted by alms at 1:29 PM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


When you're in a relationship that you Really Care About, as you've described this relationship, you're in a vulnerable situation. You really like him, he's from your hometown, he's not easy to replace. He is one in a million and you waited a long time, and took a lot of effort to find him. You're tied to him emotionally and you have a history with him. You're in your early 30's which means your dating options are different from if you were 22. You love him. It would hurt you immensely to break up with him. It would take a long time to recover.

There is one type of boyfriend who will take advantage of that, behaving badly, assuming that after a bit of self-flaggelation on his part, you'll forgive him.

There is another type of boyfriend who will not take advantage of the fact that you're vulnerable precisely because you love him.


Let me tell you that dating the second type of boyfriend -- the one who really has your back -- is so much better that it's not even worth considering the first type. It's not even in the same ballpark. It's not the same order of magnitude. It is a completely different feeling and a different ballgame to date someone who intrinsically wouldn't do this, versus someone who would. You maybe thought he was the second type of guy, but it turns out he was the first.
posted by htid at 1:35 PM on May 13, 2013 [59 favorites]


I found the comfort of being with someone from my home area unbelievably wonderful and unfortunately I come from a very little place and pretty much everyone is married off by now or are unemployed no good types.

You are talking about him like he's the last decent man you could possibly be in a relationship with, the only person you could ever trust, the only one you will ever love. Which, is understandable since this is all very raw for you right now. Even if it is true there are no other men you want to date in your hometown--is whatever comfort of a shared hometown worth continuing to date someone who has a drinking problem that he refuses to address and cheated on you?
posted by inertia at 1:37 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


having a lot of very negative, 'I'm good for nothing and nobody' type of chat

When someone does something unequivocally wrong and then attempts to extract pity from the wronged party, they are being manipulative.

Instead of acknowledging that your totally justifiable anger and hurt are valid and necessary consequences of his bad behavior, and instead of making your needs a priority, he is manipulating you by making you feel sorry for him. This is his way to avoid taking adult responsibility for himself and his actions, and it will happen again and again for as long as you allow yourself to be a part of it.

Good, kind, healthy adults fuck up on the regular--none of us is perfect, and it is human to make mistakes and hurt each other. If you want to forgive future partners for a single instance of bad behavior in an otherwise stellar relationship, that's your business. But the codependent, manipulative bullshit he's pulling right now is not something you deserve and isn't something you should tolerate. Walk away.
posted by jesourie at 1:39 PM on May 13, 2013 [28 favorites]


Wow. Htid nailed it. There is a guy whose attitude is not, "I'll occasionally see what I can get away with and take advantage of my woman," and is instead, "I am cherishing and protecting this person with every decision." That second type of man exists. And as hard as it is, that type is worth waiting for.

If there were one thing I wish every person could know before they embarked on serious dating, it would be this: "Love is not enough." Some people put this differently: "Love is a verb; it's something you do and show as much as something you feel."

I hear so much love in your comments for this guy. Your contemplation of moving on, forgiving him and continuing the relationship -- that too is love, because it's something you will DO.

But love is only healthy when it is reciprocated. You are deserving of someone who will love you back in the same ways you love him. This guy? He has heard your concerns about his drinking and refused to address them. He did not support you adequately after an emotionally (and perhaps physically) difficult medical procedure. He responded to an argument by betraying your trust in one of the most fundamental ways imaginable (if, as it seems, you are monogamous by agreement).

Perhaps you feel unable to trust anyone else because some part of you recognizes how difficult this whole trust deal is -- with this guy, whose actions prove he doesn't deserve it from you. How can you even begin to guess how easy trust will feel when you meet someone who puts you first, who - as Htid said - "cherishes [you] with every decision" he makes?

So many of your fiance's actions are the opposite of loving. You seem so capable of loving; don't you want someone who will return it in spades?
posted by artemisia at 1:44 PM on May 13, 2013 [22 favorites]


There is a guy whose attitude is not, "I'll occasionally see what I can get away with and take advantage of my woman," and is instead, "I am cherishing and protecting this person with every decision." That second type of man exists. And as hard as it is, that type is worth waiting for.

Ooops, except that I edited that part out because I thought my post was too long. Doh! So, what artemisia said.
posted by htid at 1:47 PM on May 13, 2013


This guy can't control his alcohol consumption or his penis enough to think
"Hmm, maybe CHEATING ON MY GIRLFRIEND isn't such a good idea
--especially with an alcohol-addicted mother of "several" children."
Whether he did it as a cowardly way to break off a long-distance relationship, or he just lacks the sense god gave little green apples, he has shown himself to be an untrustworthy guest in your heart.

How could you ever trust him again? How could you not always wonder if this weekend wasn't another weekend when he drank "too many" beers and right now he was in a strangers bed? Especially at his current geographic remove?
Better an empty house than a bad tenant. DTMFA.
posted by blueberry at 1:49 PM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


This is such a hard one. There really aren't any cookie cutter answers. I would suggest that your decision process should hinge on the following elements:

- I think the first thing you should do is walk away. It doesn't have to be permanent, and in fact there will probably be a huge amount of discussion and forgiveness and such... LATER. Neither one of you is going to drop dead, and as long as you are from the same small town, you'll probably see each other again. So don't be afraid of losing him forever (if that was going through your mind). In the meantime, he needs to know what it feels like to have you out of his life. To realize that this was a colossal fuckup, not a small one. He needs to know that there are HUGE consequences. Similarly, you NEED some space to heal. You need to accept that the relationship, the one you had, is over. You need to step back and see him more clearly: what kind of man he is, his limitations as a person. He needs to see you more clearly too: what he did, what he has lost.

- In that vein, do not talk to him for 30 days. If you are going to be together for a long time, 30 days is nothing. And at the very least, it will give you space to heal, gain perspective, and see what you want going forward. He will likely try to contact you, apologize, whatever. The 30 days guards your mental state and your own health (meaning you won't be so emotionally vulnerable, and also that you won't have sex with him.)

- Realize that this is not a simple process that you are starting. It won't be "Yes, we are together and everything is the same!" or "No, I have dumped you and never think about you again." The old relationship is gone forever. He killed it. You may have a new relationship, or you may not. If you don't have a new relationship with each other, you will still have to have a new relationship with him in your head. This will require a lot of thinking, and (preferably) a lot of therapy. It is a grief process.

- That feeling that he is the only one and that you'll never love anyone again and that it's magic because he's from your hometown... is total bs. Our brains fool us by constructing those narratives. Maybe the magic man for you has never even heard of your home town. What's important is that he appreciates you and what you love about your home town, NOT specifics of his family history. This is like loving someone because "OMG we love the same favorite band!", not because you share certain values and aesthetics that the band represents (which can be found in many, many places).

- Alcohol is not really relevant here, imo. People do stupid things drunk and stupid things sober. They do them when they have a headache and when they are lonely in a strange town. All of these things are pressures. I would address the alcohol issue (how much, when) separately, after you've had some time to think through how to address this more pressing problem.

- Like htid said, there is a type of man who WILL NOT fuck you over when you are vulnerable, whose priority will be to take care of you when you need him. You being vulnerable will make him MORE protective, rather than less. They really do exist. I didn't believe it myself, because I had a host of crappy experiences and had never met anyone like this. But it's true. They do. You will meet one.

- I know this is hard to contemplate now, but do other things. Focus on other things you care about right now. Your friends who love you. Your family, if that applies. Your art or work or exercise or nature. Let the rest of the world, with its beauties and sorrows and permanence, soothe you.
posted by 3491again at 1:51 PM on May 13, 2013 [6 favorites]


My boyfriend did something horrible to me and also went into the "I don't deserve your forgiveness" spiral.

So you know what I did?

I believed the SOB, and dumped him on the spot.

This man is not worthy of becoming your husband. Definitely not now, maybe not ever.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 1:57 PM on May 13, 2013 [20 favorites]


i am sorry you are going through all this. you don't have to make any decisions right now as to whether or not to stay together. upon reading your update the situation sounds a bit worse than you initially indicated: you're engaged, he has an alcohol addiction, you recently had an abortion and he cheated. oh, and you are currently long distance. that is a lot going on. it sounds like you were trying to minimize the issues and i wonder if you do that regularly. also, i do think it is important to pay attention to the timing of things. you recently had an abortion and you had a fight sat. night and then he immediately went out that night, got drunk and cheated. what were you fighting about? you don't need to answer that here but it's something to think about.

also, the fact that you got pregnant, terminated it and then he's having unprotected sex with someone else makes me wonder if there is more here going on about his feelings about the abortion. just because he agreed to it and thought it was the best thing at the time doesn't mean he really feels 100% okay about it. i would think if anything he'd not be having unprotected sex with anyone right now.

it sounds like he unconsciously sabotaged the relationship. he may have been having some big reservations about the relationship and engagement and/or recent events and this is how he chose to deal with those reservations: by getting drunk and cheating. at the least i'd say he is not marriage material but i doubt you two will be able to get past this as i think this is about a lot more than him just cheating. of course he needs to deal with his alcohol addiction. that is a must.

lastly, the way you talk about him i wonder if you love the idea of him more than really him. he seems to fulfill a lot of your dreams on paper but i wonder if he really does in real life. i know you are in a bit of shock right now, but the way you talk about your love for him strikes me as quite dispassionate and more like him fulfilling a laundry list. honestly, i don't see this working out. i think he has tried to show you something about himself and you would be really wise not to ignore it.
posted by wildflower at 2:00 PM on May 13, 2013 [10 favorites]


also, the fact that you got pregnant, terminated it and then he's having unprotected sex with someone else makes me wonder if there is more here going on about his feelings about the abortion. just because he agreed to it and thought it was the best thing at the time doesn't mean he really feels 100% okay about it. i would think if anything he'd not be having unprotected sex with anyone right now.

Seriously, if you think having a baby with your girlfriend is going to disrupt your life in ways you don't want, having a baby with a random girl from your past is surely 1000x more of a headache and mess. I'd dump the guy just for being that stupid.
posted by Asparagus at 2:07 PM on May 13, 2013 [6 favorites]


When people show you who they are, believe them.
posted by mani at 2:24 PM on May 13, 2013 [15 favorites]


Believe me if you were in my situation you would understand this to be true. I'm not being naive here, there is no way on earth he was angling to sleep with her.

And yet, he did sleep with her. It didn't happen straight out of nowhere. This woman didn't come hurtling out of the sky and happen to land on his penis. There is a very clear progression beginning from the moment he first responded to her flirty messages. Each time he responded, he took things a little further. Then you had a fight, he went out and had sex with her. Was that an accident or coincidence, really? The bottom line is, he slept with her and he did it for a reason. Do either of you understand why he did this? Until he figures it out and does something about it himself, it's just another time bomb ticking.

Based on your followup, it doesn't sound like your fiance is ready to do the hard work it will take to repair this. He's not asking the right questions of himself. He's not asking any questions at all actually, he's simply waiting for you to give him absolution. Ask yourself, why is that?
posted by keep it under cover at 2:30 PM on May 13, 2013 [16 favorites]


Just read your followup. I really want to stress that you guys need a break from each other. You are trying to hold on to what was lost by engaging with him. I have been there! I understand! But still... this part is not going to work. It has been lost.

His guilt sounds self-centered. It sounds motivated by a desire to display guilt. That is a phase he is going through and it will end. He will actually have to do some very hard work to fix this. The question that remains is what he is actually willing to do, and that will take time to determine.

DO NOT talk with him. Do not give him the comfort of your presence. Wait.

Read some of the boards intended for married couples dealing with cheating. You will read some stories that will curl your hair. They are real. This happens to a lot of people -- good, loving people. They all advise you to have major consequences for this kind of transgression, for a very good reason. You want behavior change to stick.

Also, you are right that you will never trust anyone the way you trusted him before he did this. You have been betrayed, and will never trust so freely again. That's part of what he did to you by doing this. (You will have loving relationships, with him and with others, but you are right that you won't trust anyone again in the same way. Time is a river that is different every time you step in it.)
posted by 3491again at 2:44 PM on May 13, 2013 [7 favorites]


This guy was unsupportive after an abortion, and he had unprotected sex with an ex after you two had a fight. He might have all kinds of good qualities, but it seems that he reacts VERY POORLY when the going gets rough. I don't know if that's the sort of person you want to spend the rest of your life with. I personally might be able to get over the cheating, but I don't know if I could get over the fact that every time things get hairy, he seems to go nuclear. That is not a recipe for a happy life (or a good partner, or a valued co-parent).
posted by Countess Sandwich at 3:35 PM on May 13, 2013 [10 favorites]


i wanted to add that there is a huge difference between cheating on your gf and cheating on your fiancé. the first is a huge mistake and possibly forgivable under a few circumstances, but the second really is him sending you a clear message that he does not want to get married. it is absolutely a deal breaker. he didn't cheat with her because he wanted a relationship with her--he did that specifically, albeit unconsciously, to end your relationship and engagement. as he said, he "ruined it". i'm sorry, i know that sounds harsh but one doesn't just cheat on one's fiancé.
posted by wildflower at 4:01 PM on May 13, 2013 [13 favorites]


also, the fact that you got pregnant, terminated it and then he's having unprotected sex with someone else makes me wonder if there is more here going on about his feelings about the abortion.

Yeah, you two just went through some difficult stuff due to lack/failure of birth control, yet that doesn't seem to have made him take precautions to not get this woman pregnant (let alone protect himself from STD). I suppose one might think "that just proves he was completely out of his mind drunk", in which case I wouldn't get back together with someone with a drinking problem like that. And if he wasn't completely wasted out of his mind, then he has a bad self-destructive streak, which you should probably distance yourself from. I'm sorry, this really sucks. It will suck more if this woman ends up getting pregnant. Since the thought of that didn't stop him, my feeling is that he absolutely needs to do something drastic and immediate about the alcohol thing for you to even consider staying with him. And that may not have even been the mitigating factor, you know? Sometimes even a real, known alcohol problem is an excuse for shitty behavior. In either case, he has a serious problem with booze, and a serious problem with making bad decisions, and a serious problem with dealing with tough times. Even fixing the booze issue may not help the others.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:04 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm of the opinion that people use alcohol as an excuse. I've never done anything while tipsy or drunk that I didn't already want to do when sober. Alcohol doesn't turn you into someone else. It lowers your inhibitions.

No matter how much I've had to drink, I always used a condom while having sex. I cannot fathom any amount of alcohol that would make me risk getting a woman pregnant. Alcohol or no alcohol, I do not understand guys who could be that reckless.

Can you forgive him for cheating on you? Maybe.

Can you trust someone who would be reckless enough to cheat without using a condom? Yikes. That would really make me question so many things about his character.

Whatever you do, don't fall into the trap of excuses. The other woman didn't trick him into doing something he didn't want to do, and neither did the alcohol.

He made a mistake. Mistakes can be forgiven (not that they always should be, but they can be). But that level of recklessness? Wow. Well, they say that fatherhood can really help a man to grow up in a hurry. Perhaps he's about to find out.
posted by 2oh1 at 5:18 PM on May 13, 2013 [5 favorites]


I completely forgot about the most important detail from your original post: your terminated pregnancy.

teamnap said: "The fact that you had recently terminated a pregnancy and he has since cheated on you..."

THIS.

He cheated on you without a condom?! After having a partner go through an abortion, he cheated on that partner without even wearing a condom?!?!?!?!??!!!!!? Who is this clown and why the heck would you even consider a future with him? OK, to be fair, I understand that the heart wants what the heart wants, but it's time for your brain to tell your heart this man needs to GO.

Do you have a timer anywhere? Your smartphone probably has one... or even your microwave. I know it's hard to break up with someone, so set a timer in order to give yourself a bit of time to work up the nerve. When the timer goes off... pick up the phone and dump that clown.

I wish you the best of luck as you try to move forward. Breakups are hard, but it's time. Best wishes.
posted by 2oh1 at 5:28 PM on May 13, 2013 [11 favorites]


For the love of God, don't marry an alcoholic who has the potential to get out of control. It's like being strapped to a bomb. Stories of people who married alcholics are just a Google search away, and I think even the tamest of those stories is worth avoiding. You know what he is capable of, and I hate to be a cynic, but at that age, I'm sure he's done it before, and I wouldn't be surprised if he does it again. If it were me, I would insist on alcohol treatment, therapy, whatever, and if he refused, see you later.
posted by amodelcitizen at 5:42 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


I am still 180 degrees from most of the respondents here, who are telling you to DTMFA.

I think people are not listening to you, and they're projecting their own relationships onto your situation.

What you've written sounds to me like you had a basically very good relationship, your partner got loaded, screwed up, and came back to you in despair the next day. I haven't heard that you're involved with a serial uncaring schmuck who is taking advantage of you. I've heard that you're involved with someone who has a binge drinking problem, the kind of drinking problem that often goes unrecognized because it doesn't involve drinking every day. I've heard that when he was out-of-it drunk he did something that he regretted immediately when he was sober.

People who are claiming that it had to be premeditated don't understand what can happen when someone is really drunk. (They apparently also don't understand that women can take advantage of drunk men, too.)

It is not surprising to me that he hasn't asked for your forgiveness yet, because he probably doesn't feel like he deserves it yet. That is why you should talk with him. If you cared enough about him to get engaged to him, you should care enough about him to talk now, really try to understand what happened, and try to get him to get the help he needs to deal with his illness.

Because that's the only deal breaker here for me. You can't be married to someone who is risks losing all self control every time they have a drink. But if he cares about you enough to address that, and shows himself willing to do what's necessary to address it (i.e. admit that he needs help), then I think there's a chance and you should give him and yourself that chance.
posted by alms at 5:54 PM on May 13, 2013


I just want to link to this great comment by scody about bad ponies. Then I'll butt out.
posted by 3491again at 5:57 PM on May 13, 2013


This is a long question, so sorry if this has been brought up before, but OP you are doing some serious gymnastics rationalizing his behavior and explaining/justifying your feelings for him. I'm not trying to be judgmental, but I am just struck by this: you seem utterly convinced that you will never find anyone who is as good to or for you at this guy - so why even ask the question?

You don't need anybody's permission to do whatever you think you should do with this.

I actually don't want to lose what we've got, that much is probably obvious
Does he? He sounds, at the very least, undecided. Gonna take more than just you.
posted by sm1tten at 6:02 PM on May 13, 2013 [5 favorites]


This is the camp I was in, given your original question: "He has issues, but who doesn't, and it sounds like he is in a position to work on addressing his issues, so maybe, if you want to, it wouldn't be a bad idea to stay in this relationship." In general, I think of cheating as a symptom, rather than the problem itself. If someone cheats on their partner, something is going wrong elsewhere, either in the person themselves or in the relationship as a whole.

But I'm in a different camp now. Now I'm in camp, "I think you should think seriously about leaving this relationship."

Why? Because of how you describe his response. The self-loathing, the pain and anguish... All of that self-centered pain he's making you listen to? That's not cool. That's really not cool. Suppose you went up to your friend and punched her in the face. Then, as blood's running down her nose, you cry to her about how much your hand hurts. That's messed up behavior. To me, it indicates a narcissistic outlook. It indicates a person who is so caught up in his own self, he doesn't have the sight to see others around him. Maybe this is just how he is--maybe he's always been self-centered and blind to others, and it just never was an issue before. Or, as I suspect is probably more likely, maybe he's just so caught up in his own issues (a new move, alcoholism, etc etc etc) that he doesn't currently have the capacity to be a good partner. Either way, he's not being a good partner. He might be an awesome person whom you love, but he is not being a good partner.

You don't owe him waiting, helping him learn how to be a good partner to you. You owe yourself a good relationship with a good partner.
posted by meese at 6:49 PM on May 13, 2013 [14 favorites]


You know, i think a lot of good stuff has been said here about pretty much everything else, but there's one thing i wanted to add.

I think that anyone who doesn't think that alcohol doesn't make you do things you'd never otherwise do, sometimes without any previous thought of or urge to, has never interacted with a serious alcoholic.

Hardcore, black the fuck out alcoholics will do things that are completely out of character and have absolutely no memory of them. People who don't really black out like that(or haven't closely interacted with someone who did, without the preconception that they were completely lying) just don't seem to get it, and think they're just using it as a manipulative excuse... which they can be, depending on how they act afterwards, but that's a whole other discussion. They seem to have the assumption that it's as if they consciously went "aha! i'll get away with this by getting drunk, and then when i'm wasted i'll do XYZ and use being hammered as an excuse!". That's looking at him like a sociopath, not just a pathetic drunk who is maybe somewhat manipulative afterwards to try and cover his own poo smeared ass that he doesn't even remember shitting all over.

Alcoholics do not work this way. There are many alcoholics like this who only get that drunk rarely as well. They may be practicing alcoholics, but only get moderately wasted a few times a month, and just occasionally reach this felony-committing olympic level.

All that said, people like this are the most insidious alcoholics in my opinion. The "i don't want to get help, i'll figure it out on my own" part especially made me wince. There's the alcoholics who get hammered almost every night that everyone can point to and go "oh yep, that's an alcoholic alright". Everyone has met or known a few of those. The thing is, that being the "alcoholic" is a complete farce in the same way that the whole "Rapists are guys with ski masks who attack you out of dark alleys when you're walking home at night" thing; In fact, the average alcoholic is not blatantly obvious alcoholic man.

And on that note, this guy will very likely never quit drinking like this on any time scale that matters to you. Like, if he does, it will be when your hair is grey and you're walking with a cane. Why wait for that shit? This guy is most definitely a serious alcoholic. Personally, i have no problem believing that he went out with no intention to screw that girl, and then blacked out, did it, and woke up going "holy shit... wtf?". I also think that's even worse.

If you continue on from here, call back in a few months when he's totaled your car, or let the dog run away in the middle of the night, or gotten arrested for pissing all over the shelves in a convenience store and chugging the booze he was mid way through shoplifting, etc. He'll have genuinely no memory of how he even reached that moment in time where he took the wrong fork in the road and fucked up, but so what?. Having that light switch flipped off and being a fuckstick is in my opinion, almost worse than consciously going "Oh, i'm gonna scheme my way in to doing $DUMBTHING"

I also will echo a few things i've heard on here that i like, and that i agree with based on personal thoughts: Do not give him another chance to get treatment, and do not frame it as "i'm only staying with you if you do". He has to want to do this to not be a turbo-moron randomly, not just to get back in your good graces.

I feel like i had more to say, but the rest is pretty much already covered in this thread. I will say, to people who were going "insist on treatment" that he already said no.

Even as someone who might have some stored up compassion in this department through having had issues with drinking, i would be noping out of this shit so fast. And i'm not even one of those "cheating is an automatic dealbreaker" things, it's a case by case "i know it when i see it" thing with that IMO. but this isn't just cheating, this is like those combo crimes you can rack up if you're a petty violent criminal. I.E. he didn't just rob the convenience store, but he did it with a gun, shoved someone around so it's assault, etc etc.(Bear with me if this is a shitty analogy, it sounded cool in my head)

Do not look at this as one infraction, look at it as a spree of overlapping bullshit things that just happened to take place in the same night. There was a series of bad decisions and subsequent fuckups that went on here, not just one big nuclear bomb. Lots of little ones.
posted by emptythought at 8:11 PM on May 13, 2013 [7 favorites]


Although my experience is as an observer, I wanted to second what emptythought said, particularly people like this are the most insidious alcoholics in my opinion.
posted by variella at 8:29 PM on May 13, 2013


The sleeping with someone else, accepting messages from someone he may otherwise not be friends with, being avoidant and having an addiction are just symptoms of a bigger problem. He has to address the deeper issue himself to be a decent partner and husband to you. You can choose to be at his side while he explores his personal demons or he may not be ready to delve into working on them now. Confront him with the drinking issue as that is the medium he is choosing to act out his inner fear and shame, and see if he is willing to tackle that. If he is, then there is promise. If he is not, then you cannot fix him and may be on the path to a future breakdown. Address it now and you may still have a chance in the future. If he chooses to address it now, then he is showing much care and love for himself and for you.
posted by happysocks at 8:42 PM on May 13, 2013


When someone Ina relationship screws up in a major way the most useful thing to do is to take a step back and look at the patterns you see in their behaviour. I see a pattern of him drinking in a problematic way (problematic for him and especially the powerless people he interacts with), I see a pattern of him putting his needs first, a pattern of him manipulating you and focusing both of your emotional energy on his emotions and validating him, I see a pattern of not being authentic with people and a pattern of avoiding problems by ignoring them and hoping they will go away. He has had a couple of days to take steps towards making things right; instead he has gotten into your head and you've been focused on him and saving his reputation.

I think you should tell everyone what happened - people should be accountable for their actions and if telling family and friends helps them support you in making a healthy decision for YOU it is a good thing. If he truly loved you he would want you to have that support.
posted by saucysault at 9:23 PM on May 13, 2013 [5 favorites]


Am I crazy stupid to consider forgiving him? Has anyone ever forgiven their partner a one night stand and gone on to enjoy their relationship or is that just a ridiculous notion and I'm setting myself up for further grief? Should I cut my losses and flee?

I have a very good friend who could have written this question.

She and her partner went to counseling, he stopped drinking entirely, and they got married. They have been married for five years and have a wonderful two year old kiddo. They are truly committed to each other and work hard at having a happy and functional relationship.

It may or may not work out this way for you, but it's not crazy or stupid. Right now, focus on the next immediate step and go from there. It might be helpful for you to consider counseling together, especially if there are still emotional issues to work through w/r/t pregnancy termination. It might also be helpful for your boyfriend to attend an AA meeting and/or for you to go to AlAnon if there are larger issues about alcohol at play.

Think about what needs to happen right now, and go from there. Maybe it will work out, maybe it won't, but the best way forward is to be gentle with yourself and see how things go. Allow for the possibility that there may not be a way for you to stay together, but it does not have to be an inevitability if this is a one time aberration that can be resolved.
posted by sonika at 6:31 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Replied without having read the whole thread, after seeing your response I would highly recommend Al Anon for you and try to get him to go to AA.

If he has a serious drinking problem like you describe, he absolutely has to quit before he can have a functional adult relationship with you or anyone else. You deserve a functional relationship - don't stay with someone who is fundamentally incapable of it.
posted by sonika at 6:59 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


The way I see this one is:

1) he screwed up and did a stupid thing.
2) he did not try to cover up the stupid thing. He realized it was stupid, he told you about it immediately, and (presumably) is embarrassed and apologetic about said stupid thing.

If not for (2), we'd be in clear, instant, DTMFA territory. The coverup is worse than the crime -- I believe it's more of a sign of untrustworthiness to hide a problem than to have the problem in the first place -- and here there was no coverup. The faint silver lining here is that you're getting the chance to see how he handles a very bad situation, and so far it sounds like he's doing the right thing.

I am NOT saying that (2) excuses (1) by any means, but it's a sign that he may be worth the work of working through this. If he's owning the mistake, and continues to take responsibility for his actions and takes appropriate steps to prevent such stupid things from happening again (this probably includes quitting drinking, or at least quitting the "blowouts with old friends" thing) then your relationship may end up all the stronger for this.

(If on the other hand he figuratively ducks his head and hopes it all just blows over, or waits for you to set ultimatums before he's willing to make any real change, then we're back in DTMFA territory.)
posted by ook at 7:01 AM on May 14, 2013


Hey, first of all, I want to pass a lot of love and support to you. Being cheated on sucks.

That said, I have a perspective on this that may be a bit unusual.

A few years ago, I had a chance to see a cheating-type situation from both perspectives, and it was really illuminating. My partner at the time ended up cheating on me, though I didn't know. When he broke up with me, I knew he had started seeing another woman, but he said it was casual.We would still see each other, he would call me (often from work). I thought nothing of it, because I didn't know he was a cheater. He'd tell me he loved me, and never mention his new girlfriend - if I asked about her, he'd minimize it, or say they were broken up or that they were friends with benefits.

From his then-girlfriend's perspective, I was just an ex, who she didn't particularly think was in a good situation, and she didn't think was physically attractive. She was very pretty in a blond/blue-eyed/very thin way, She thought I would contact him more than he contacted me, and so nothing was going on - that I was just a "persistent ex" who couldn't get over him.

Meanwhile, there was a lot of romantisexual stuff that we both would have called cheating if we knew what was going on. We eventually both found out about it by stupid circumstance - something put us on the phone together. And what we found when we got together on the phone is that we had both been lied to for a long period of time and that excuses had been given on all sides (I was drunk was, in fact, one of them).

She eventually ended up forgiving him because she figured it was an unusual circumstance that wouldn't happen again. Their relationship is miserable now. She periodically messages me, saying that he's acting suspicious and she wants to know if it's with me. It's not - I'm pretty sure he's cheating on her with someone else now.

Why I'm saying this is, it's possible that this was just a drunken one night stand. But it does not appear likely to me, reading this with new knowledge of how these things look from all sides. From here, it looks like maybe his relationship with this "fling" is actually stronger than you think it is. One key flag I see is: he gave you his phone and passwords to convince you to trust him. People who are not habitually cheaters don't assume they'll be mistaken for them.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I'd advise you to talk to the other woman involved. See what happened from her perspective. It will tell you a lot about the leadup, how random it was, etc - and let you know what you should do. If it really was a random one night stand, maybe you can forgive - but if it wasn't, then you may want to reevaluate how happy this guy will make you. You say you've had trust issues - is this guy likely to encourage them or increase them?
posted by corb at 7:03 AM on May 14, 2013 [8 favorites]


What happens if the woman he cheated with is pregnant?
posted by Juliet Banana at 7:25 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]


He was out drinking at a party, slept with her at someone elses house, can't remember much. Didn't use protection

Irregardless of anything else, this is an ASTOUNDINGLY stupid thing to do when one has already been through a pregnancy scare and a termination. There might be another one waiting for him to go through.
posted by mippy at 9:48 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]


You should break up with him for at least a few months to make sure he didn't just create baby #4 for the woman and ends up bound to her for 18 years.

After that period of time, you can reassess teh situation and see if your nerves aren't more relaxed for not having to deal with an alcoholic.

(I'm sorry this happened to you.)
posted by WeekendJen at 12:36 PM on May 14, 2013 [5 favorites]


I agree with corb....though it might not be feasible (and would almost surely open a Pandora's box of epic proportions), talking to the other woman would likely be an eye-opener. My most recent ex broke up with me after a fight six months into our relationship, and one month later was posting pictures of himself and another woman on FB. I thought, wow, he sure moved on fast. Two months later, he started calling me, told me he broke up with her, that it was just a rebound fling, and we ended up getting back together for over a year. I asked him if he had met her while we were together and he swore that he hadn’t. It never sat right with me but I believed him and felt I had no right to feel jealous over a relationship we had when we were not together. Towards the end of my relationship with him, the woman he was dating during our "break up" emailed me after seeing our pictures on FB and realizing they had been taken both before and after their time together. So...we got to talking. Turns out, he met her while he and I were together; dated her/slept with us both for 2 months before he and I broke up; actually got ENGAGED to her during their 2-month relationship; contacted me/slept with me a couple of weeks after they got "engaged" after telling me he had broken up with her, even though they were still together for a month after that; finally did break up with her to come back to me; and then cheated on me with her a couple of months later. He lied to us both for the better part of a year. When confronted, he denied everything, told me she was crazy, that she was trying to ruin our relationship because she was jealous, that she Photoshopped (!) the ring on her finger in the picture she sent to me as “proof.” For the record, all 3 of us are late 30s professionals. I'm not saying your BF is on the same "level" as my ex, but some people are unfortunately extremely capable of screwing the people they claim to love over in very heinous ways, particularly if they have some type of addiction and/or emotional issues (my ex happens to be bipolar, and was unmedicated for a good part of the aforementioned time). If I were you, I'd try to obtain more information, if possible, before taking him back only to find yourself in the same situation down the line. Oh, and nthing what everyone else said about his drinking.
posted by kribensa at 2:23 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


Is he really that worth it? What about his behavior makes you believe and insist that he truly is this great of a catch? I believe that it's not an instance, but a person is who they have always been. It's easy when you have rose-colored glasses to be kind and justifying. But when you step back, have perspective, and let the chemical processes in your head subside, you'll see the real him. So far, to strangers on the internet, he doesn't sound so great.

I know for your various reasons he seems awesome. But.. shouldn't a relationship and future (hopefully life-long) marriage be to a man who trusts, cherishes, values, and honors you? You are wasting so much time, especially after only 1 year of being together with this guy. He sounds like he's in his early 20's and wanting to sow his wild oats. He sounds like a wolf in sheep's clothing, always wanting and trying to be the good guy, but it finally caught up to him and he needed to break free of his facade.

You deserve better. You will find better. This relationship is black and white, you will find a man who will show you love in technicolor. Because right now you're settling and getting the bare minimum and focusing on arbitrary things as to why he is a worthy partner. You're not even married yet, and you're having all of this doubt and negativity? This is yucksville and it sucks that he's made you the mayor of it. But you can walk away! It's so easy and such a beautiful thing on the other side. It hurts right now, and will for a while. But you will learn. And you will most importantly learn your boundaries, what you will and will not put up with, and what you are truly looking for in a relationship and partner.

Hon, all I can say is, can you imagine feeling this hurt and being stuck on this rollercoaster if this guy becomes your husband? You sound like an amazing woman and there is someone out there who will treat you like you deserve. He's not thinking about you, he wasn't when he was with his fling, he wasn't when he got drunk, and he's not now. You will find someone who will think of you first, not himself. And like posters above have said, someone who actually has your back.

Also, don't limit yourself to this "list" that you have of what this current guy "possesses" that makes him so desirable. Because then you get stuck in a situation that on paper sounds perfect, but in reality is miserable. You also miss out on amazing and fantastic individuals because of some detail.

Option 1: This guy, and all the dramatics and circus acts that come with it.
Option 2: A real marriage with someone who values you.

Best of luck. It's never easy and it always hurts like hell. But time truly does heal all wounds. And what matters most is you. The song "Me" by Tamia, is something that might help you find the strength to truly view this from a perspective that benefits you.
posted by lunastellasol at 4:51 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


I posted already, but ... someone shared the other perspective side. Here's mine.

A guy (fling) contacted me to try to hook up. He had been back with an old girlfriend for about a month - no idea how long they were together previously but they hadn't dated for probably a year. I said "sure, why not." Again, he contacted me about it so I figured I wouldn't be the "home-wrecker" and their relationship didn't seem serious. I was single and I also liked the attention. We were both sober.

After we hooked up, we laid together and he started talking about his girlfriend. It was a very odd situation.

He said, "You know, I really like my girlfriend. I thought I even loved her."

I asked him to talk about it more, and asked, "Do you love her?" I was almost playing relationship counselor while being the "other woman."

He said, "Well, I guess I don't love her that much since I am over here doing this with you."

That ^ is your boyfriend/fiance. If he DID love you that much, he wouldn't be over there doing that with someone else. He broke up with that girl the next time he saw her.
posted by Crystalinne at 9:04 PM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]


Hi. I'm sorry; this must be really hard. I don't think you'd be stupid to forgive him, and only the two of you are in the relationship, so only you two know whether you can work through this.

But, you know, you've only been together for a little over a year, right? That is nothing. I know you're engaged, but that is such a short amount of time.

You've had a lot of ups and downs and problems and hurts for such a short relationship. If you had said that this was your husband of 15 years, I would say, sure, try to work it out. You'd have so much shared history, such an established foundation, that you could try to tap into that foundation while trying to work things out.

Do you have that, really, after only a year? Or do you feel like this, this experience, is going to go into the foundation that you draw upon in the future? Is that the basis of the relationship you want for the future?
posted by vivid postcard at 9:15 PM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]


Nthing you should break up with him for at least 4 months, until you are CERTAIN he and the ex aren't about to become parents together.

Nthing the cheating scenarios from the other side descriptions.

Honestly? The self-loathing act reminds me of a particular someone who was, like, the master of cheating.

End the engagement and reclaim your sanity while you still can.
posted by jbenben at 10:12 PM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]


To be honest, I do think this is something in the idea that this could be partly a reaction to an unwanted pregnancy and termination. Just by the nature of how he cheated.

I don't know how much that helps, though. I mean, this really is such a spree of the most immensely destructive and damaging behaviour along so many dimensions, that in your place I would pity him and consider forgiving him but I wouldn't make any decisions right now.

A lot of people here are condemning him up one side and down the other and they may not be wrong, but how does that help you? You've been with him for a year and you know what's good about him, why should you just substitute a bunch of strangers' judgment for yours? That would be just as stupid as uncritically accepting him and rushing back to him without question.

On the other hand, yeah, you have only been with him for a year and much of that long distance. That's the point of engagements, they give you time to get to know someone and find out if they do stuff like this. If you'd been married for 15 years then you'd have a much clearer view of his character and how this incident fits into it. But right now, you just don't know.

So I think jbenben has the best practical suggestion here, which is to break up for four months so you can be sure of the outcome of that unprotected cheating. You'll also have had a chance to see how he behaves.

For the record, I'm sorry you've been put in this position and are having to ask this question.
posted by tel3path at 2:44 AM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


Having read your follow up I am standing by my original response, with an addition of "Don't marry him". htid is so incredibly bang on, you have no idea. You need to really read and reread their response because it is a huge plate of truth. Hard truth, but truth.

Other things I wish to address:
1. You are going in to this with a ton of HOPE. You HOPE he will get his drinking under control. You HOPE he won't cheat again. You HOPE you can come back from this. You HOPE you'll be able to trust him again. Hope is good and everything, but it is misplaced here. You aren't engaged to this guy, you are engaged to who you HOPE he will be, and I think you know that. You are making a big big life decision based upon hope that he will be different, and that almost never ends well. I can almost guarantee it won't end well in this case because he is now giving you extra reasons to believe your hope is misplaced.

2. Trust, and feeling comfortable trusting others, is a big deal. I absolutely feel for you, I know how hard it can be to finally trust someone. You finally decided to trust someone fully and hey, look, it didn't work out. This doesn't make you stupid or flawed. This doesn't represent a failure on your part, even though it might feel that way. The person you trusted has betrayed your trust, pretty catastrophically I may add. I totally get why you are so hesitant to end the relationship, it sucks to admit your hard earned trust was misplaced. It is really difficult admitting you were wrong, but I swear to you that you are. This guy is no someone to trust, and definitely not someone to spend your life with.

3. I cannot agree more with everyone that is saying that for him to have unprotected sex with this woman so soon after an accidental pregnancy and abortion is just way way beyond the pale. It shows a degree of poor judgement and stupidity that would send me running for the hills.

4. You need to consider him as the person he is NOW, today, not who you think he will be in time. That is all you can reasonably do. Look at who he is NOW, not who you think he could or should be, not who he would be if he made the changes he has said he would. Look at the person he is today, and then think about if you want to spend your life with THIS person for the rest of your life. Consider if the person he is today is a person you'd want to have raising your children. You need to approach it this way because 99 times out of 100, the person they are TODAY is exactly who they are in 5/10/50 years from now.

5. The "I ruined everything" and making his cheating all about HIM and how HE feels is intensely manipulative and would be making me extremely angry and upset if I were you. He cheated on you, and yet his focus is on his feelings. Seriously? From what you said it sounds like he isn't doing much/anything to acknowledge your feelings and emotions through this. He sounds like he is actually looking to YOU to make HIM feel better! And this is after he betrayed you, his fiance, by having sex with another woman and not using protection, putting himself and YOU at risk of STDs as well as risking empregnating this other woman, and this is after a recent pregnancy termination of yours. If he really wanted this relationship to survive he would be bending over backwards to be trying to make it up to you and to earn your trust again, but he isn't. Think about that.



This is such a terrible situation and I can only imagine how upset and disappointed and angry you are by it. His making it all about him and not really doing anything to acknowledge YOUR feelings and possibly making you feel guilty for how bad he feels is no doubt making this even worse for you.

Please. Please understand this is not behaviour you need to accept. None of this is okay. None of this is "normal" relationship stuff. This isn't the type of thing that happens in healthy relationships. You can and should demand more for yourself. You can and should demand to be in a relationship where your partner respects you and your relationship. You can and should be in a relationship where you feel secure and supported and loved. You can and should be in a relationship where your partner is truly your PARTNER instead of your responsibilty.

You are deserving of so much more from a partner. I know it feels like he was one in a million but believe me, he isn't. You will find something better. You will find someone deserving of your trust and who won't betray you in such a tremendously hurtful insulting way.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 5:56 AM on May 15, 2013 [7 favorites]


OMG. Just reread "I would pity him and consider forgiving him" which implies that I would consider resuming the relationship as well. Forgiveness is a separate issue from resuming the relationship which is a lot more of a dubious proposition.
posted by tel3path at 1:21 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


Deal Breakers: When to Work on a Relationship and when to Walk Away by Bethany Marshall. Amazing book, she explains in a no-nonsense way why women stick with good-for-nothing men and how to approach it in your relationship, when to walk away, and what to do if you want to stick it out and improve the relationship for the better. She also says when this would be possible, and under what circumstances, or if it will never change and you're basically wasting your time. Definitely an insightful read.

This might benefit you in gaining perspective on your relationship.
posted by lunastellasol at 7:51 AM on May 20, 2013


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