Creepy Themes Part II: Restaurant Employee Version
June 24, 2024 7:42 AM
Employee at restaurant behaved in a creepy manner. I've improved in responses and response times greatly since beginning therapy 2 years ago, but had a temporary freeze response in this situation. Please help me communicate a clear message.
I recently moved, and wanted to try a restaurant that I hadn't been to before. I reached right as they were opening, and I was the only customer who came in. There was one man behind the register who took my takeout order, although there was at least one other person in the kitchen (I could hear them). I was asking the cashier what dish he recommended as I love the cuisine, but was new to the restaurant. He gave a suggestion, and I ordered something along those lines.
As I was ordering, he asked, "Are you married?" Initially I thought he was asking because people in the past have been surprised that I enjoy that cuisine so much, and have assumed I'm married to someone of the culture from which it originates, so I responded, "No, I just really love [cuisine]" and laughed. As I was paying, he asked, "Do you have a boyfriend?" I then realized what his intentions likely were, and said, "No." We finished the transaction, and he told me to wait in my car. My car was visible through the large glass windows, and was the only one in the lot other than (I assume) his truck. I found it odd that he asked me to wait in my car despite no one else being in the restaurant, and plenty of chairs to sit in. But I felt uncomfortable as it was, so I obliged.
I was sitting in my car browsing my phone, while still aware of my surroundings. I was on alert and at the ready just in case. A few minutes later, he walked out of the restaurant to my car with the food. I immediately lock my doors as soon as I get into my car, so I unlocked them for him and started getting out of the driver side to retrieve the food from him. He walked over to the passenger side and put the food on my seat. I put it on the floor, as I don't like food on my seats. He then asked if he could have my number. I said, "My phone number?" to which he responded, "For friendship." I was so taken aback by the whole thing that I again had a minor freeze response. I said, "Yeah, sure, as long as it's just friendship. I'm not looking for anything more." He entered his contact information into my phone, and then called himself so that he had my number. He then asked, "See you tomorrow?" to which I gave a half-salute and got into my car.
I live less than 10 minutes down the road, and I didn't even make it home before he'd called me twice. I didn't answer either time. He left two voicemails, each that said, "Hello?" repeatedly. I wondered if this person was secretly an alien who had just hatched on this planet and was figuring out human ways. But then I felt like I was actually the alien. I just wanted to pick up some food without being objectified and sexualized. That's it. To have a normal outing and then go back home. The worst part is that the food was absolutely delicious, and I will definitely be returning at some point to try other dishes there. I refuse to let someone's creepy behavior deter me from doing something I want to do.
I'm in my 30's and have been working very hard in therapy for the past two years to set boundaries and break ingrained habits of people pleasing, but this situation genuinely took me aback. I didn't have time to "plan" any specific scripts to say "in case" this happened. I just didn't even think twice that this would happen in a food establishment at 11:00 in the morning. I initially felt embarrassed that I gave him my number, but it was still a lingering trauma response that I've almost nipped in the bud, just slipped up momentarily.
After those two phone calls and voicemails, he sent me a text message about an hour later that said, "Hello". I didn't respond. He then called me again about 20 minutes after that. I didn't pick up. At that point, I blocked his number. I don't feel bad about this in the least bit, and I've successfully gotten to the point where I no longer *care* about appeasing others or people pleasing. However, I do want to continue *practicing* how to verbally assert my boundaries so that the skills stay sharp. I want to message him something along the lines of, "Your behavior was extremely unprofessional and inappropriate, and made me feel very uncomfortable. I enjoyed the food and will return to [restaurant] in the future, and I expect to be treated as any other customer. You will not ask me personal questions. We will greet each other cordially, and then I'll pay you for the food services and be on my way. I'm not interested in any contact outside of this." Can you help me write a more concise message that leaves absolutely no wiggle room, please? Thank you!
I recently moved, and wanted to try a restaurant that I hadn't been to before. I reached right as they were opening, and I was the only customer who came in. There was one man behind the register who took my takeout order, although there was at least one other person in the kitchen (I could hear them). I was asking the cashier what dish he recommended as I love the cuisine, but was new to the restaurant. He gave a suggestion, and I ordered something along those lines.
As I was ordering, he asked, "Are you married?" Initially I thought he was asking because people in the past have been surprised that I enjoy that cuisine so much, and have assumed I'm married to someone of the culture from which it originates, so I responded, "No, I just really love [cuisine]" and laughed. As I was paying, he asked, "Do you have a boyfriend?" I then realized what his intentions likely were, and said, "No." We finished the transaction, and he told me to wait in my car. My car was visible through the large glass windows, and was the only one in the lot other than (I assume) his truck. I found it odd that he asked me to wait in my car despite no one else being in the restaurant, and plenty of chairs to sit in. But I felt uncomfortable as it was, so I obliged.
I was sitting in my car browsing my phone, while still aware of my surroundings. I was on alert and at the ready just in case. A few minutes later, he walked out of the restaurant to my car with the food. I immediately lock my doors as soon as I get into my car, so I unlocked them for him and started getting out of the driver side to retrieve the food from him. He walked over to the passenger side and put the food on my seat. I put it on the floor, as I don't like food on my seats. He then asked if he could have my number. I said, "My phone number?" to which he responded, "For friendship." I was so taken aback by the whole thing that I again had a minor freeze response. I said, "Yeah, sure, as long as it's just friendship. I'm not looking for anything more." He entered his contact information into my phone, and then called himself so that he had my number. He then asked, "See you tomorrow?" to which I gave a half-salute and got into my car.
I live less than 10 minutes down the road, and I didn't even make it home before he'd called me twice. I didn't answer either time. He left two voicemails, each that said, "Hello?" repeatedly. I wondered if this person was secretly an alien who had just hatched on this planet and was figuring out human ways. But then I felt like I was actually the alien. I just wanted to pick up some food without being objectified and sexualized. That's it. To have a normal outing and then go back home. The worst part is that the food was absolutely delicious, and I will definitely be returning at some point to try other dishes there. I refuse to let someone's creepy behavior deter me from doing something I want to do.
I'm in my 30's and have been working very hard in therapy for the past two years to set boundaries and break ingrained habits of people pleasing, but this situation genuinely took me aback. I didn't have time to "plan" any specific scripts to say "in case" this happened. I just didn't even think twice that this would happen in a food establishment at 11:00 in the morning. I initially felt embarrassed that I gave him my number, but it was still a lingering trauma response that I've almost nipped in the bud, just slipped up momentarily.
After those two phone calls and voicemails, he sent me a text message about an hour later that said, "Hello". I didn't respond. He then called me again about 20 minutes after that. I didn't pick up. At that point, I blocked his number. I don't feel bad about this in the least bit, and I've successfully gotten to the point where I no longer *care* about appeasing others or people pleasing. However, I do want to continue *practicing* how to verbally assert my boundaries so that the skills stay sharp. I want to message him something along the lines of, "Your behavior was extremely unprofessional and inappropriate, and made me feel very uncomfortable. I enjoyed the food and will return to [restaurant] in the future, and I expect to be treated as any other customer. You will not ask me personal questions. We will greet each other cordially, and then I'll pay you for the food services and be on my way. I'm not interested in any contact outside of this." Can you help me write a more concise message that leaves absolutely no wiggle room, please? Thank you!
I'm sorry this happened to you. He was really inappropriate. I'm also on Team Keep him Blocked and don't send a message.
If the food was so outstanding that you really, really want to eat there again, can you use doordash or some other food delivery application (not the restaurant) and select contactless delivery? But for me, I would just block him and maybe leave an (anonymous) review on something like yelp which allows you to obscure your identity that the cashier hit on you in a pretty creepy/pushy way.
And - for future reference my suggested script it "Oh, I'd love to, but I'm meeting my husband for lunch/dinner/whatever," and in response to "but you said you were single" I'd look mildly puzzled and say "No I didn't" in a pleasant way, then leave. If he tries to re-engage I'd fake a phone call. You shouldn't have to do any of this - it should be ok for you to say you're single and not get hit on - but it is a good way to insulate yourself. Again, sorry you're dealing with that.
posted by arnicae at 7:56 AM on June 24
If the food was so outstanding that you really, really want to eat there again, can you use doordash or some other food delivery application (not the restaurant) and select contactless delivery? But for me, I would just block him and maybe leave an (anonymous) review on something like yelp which allows you to obscure your identity that the cashier hit on you in a pretty creepy/pushy way.
And - for future reference my suggested script it "Oh, I'd love to, but I'm meeting my husband for lunch/dinner/whatever," and in response to "but you said you were single" I'd look mildly puzzled and say "No I didn't" in a pleasant way, then leave. If he tries to re-engage I'd fake a phone call. You shouldn't have to do any of this - it should be ok for you to say you're single and not get hit on - but it is a good way to insulate yourself. Again, sorry you're dealing with that.
posted by arnicae at 7:56 AM on June 24
Do NOT engage. Harassers see any response, whatever the content, as a success. Your silence is a sufficient response in and of itself.
I agree you shouldn't return to that restaurant either.
I noticed you also posted a previous question about being made to feel uncomfortable by a creepy guy's unwanted attentions.
I want to link you to Mizu's great comment in your previous thread:
...Retreat, block, do not give excuses or explanations, don’t give in to manipulation, resist the urge to please.
The message you want to send is unnecessary - it is an excuse and an explanation and you owe him neither.
You do NOT have to answer truthfully when someone asks you if you have a partner. You do NOT have to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure there are innocent reasons for asking this, but 9 times out of 10 it's because they're gauging your availability for a romantic relationship. You also do NOT have to give someone your number or contact details just because they ask for it.
posted by unicorn chaser at 7:56 AM on June 24
I agree you shouldn't return to that restaurant either.
I noticed you also posted a previous question about being made to feel uncomfortable by a creepy guy's unwanted attentions.
I want to link you to Mizu's great comment in your previous thread:
...Retreat, block, do not give excuses or explanations, don’t give in to manipulation, resist the urge to please.
The message you want to send is unnecessary - it is an excuse and an explanation and you owe him neither.
You do NOT have to answer truthfully when someone asks you if you have a partner. You do NOT have to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure there are innocent reasons for asking this, but 9 times out of 10 it's because they're gauging your availability for a romantic relationship. You also do NOT have to give someone your number or contact details just because they ask for it.
posted by unicorn chaser at 7:56 AM on June 24
I cannot imagine food that is tasty enough to make me ever want to interact again with such an off putting ignorant asshole. If he doesn’t know the basic rules of how to treat customers what other rules does he ignore? I would never go near that restaurant ever again. Give him no message , no clarification, nothing. I’m afraid next time you are there he will put a tracker on your car and then he will show up at your house.
posted by Vatnesine at 8:00 AM on June 24
posted by Vatnesine at 8:00 AM on June 24
Whoa, yeah, that's creepy as !@#$. Block and move on. You are under no obligation to respond at all.
posted by number9dream at 8:02 AM on June 24
posted by number9dream at 8:02 AM on June 24
I’m really sorry this happened. Lately, I’ve been working on the concept of taking time to respond to people, to be conscious of what I’m doing/saying in a moment. I, like so many others, tend to react quickly and end up just going along with whatever to appease and get the interaction over with, especially when it’s out of the blue or when the interaction veers somewhere I was not expecting or prepared for. I’ve been telling myself it’s ok to take a beat before responding. It’s ok to gather my thoughts first. It takes practice and effort though. But, it’s easy to practice in every day normal conversations so that when inappropriate interactions come up, you’ll be comfortable enough to take a moment to decipher what the person was saying and react accordingly, instead of feeling steamrolled by the out of the blue question.
posted by Sassyfras at 8:14 AM on June 24
posted by Sassyfras at 8:14 AM on June 24
Block and move on. If you go into the restaurant later and he’s there, pretend it never happened. If he tries this again you say:
I’m not interested.
“How come you didn’t return my texts?”
I’m not interested. Can you take my order please?
If he doesn’t stop, you walk out, no matter how much you love the food. Don’t wait in your car (if you feel that unsafe you don’t want him somewhere less public.)
Arguing with a creepy guy never solves anything. Your actions have already indicated that you’re not interested. Hopefully he’s moved on.
Remember that boundaries are about the actions you take, not what the other party does or thinks. You don’t need to message him again. You’ve delivered the message.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:18 AM on June 24
I’m not interested.
“How come you didn’t return my texts?”
I’m not interested. Can you take my order please?
If he doesn’t stop, you walk out, no matter how much you love the food. Don’t wait in your car (if you feel that unsafe you don’t want him somewhere less public.)
Arguing with a creepy guy never solves anything. Your actions have already indicated that you’re not interested. Hopefully he’s moved on.
Remember that boundaries are about the actions you take, not what the other party does or thinks. You don’t need to message him again. You’ve delivered the message.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:18 AM on June 24
Seriously do not go into that restaurant again. Tell the manager (unless this guy IS the manager? :( If he was alone in there, he could be.) that this guy relentlessly came onto you if you want to go back there. He went from 0-stalker INSTANTLY and I was scared reading this. HELL NO DO NOT BE AROUND THIS GUY because boundaries are not his jam and you even live close by. I don't care how good the food was, he's not taking no for an answer.
Just as an FYI to you because I have learned this the hard way:
* If a strange man asks if you're single/married/have a boyfriend, he's fishing for a date. This is not casual conversation.
* Likewise, he didn't want your number "for friendship."
Seriously, you told him you didn't want more/romance and he went for it anyway. I don't think you can come up with the right words that he'd listen to and stop at.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:29 AM on June 24
Just as an FYI to you because I have learned this the hard way:
* If a strange man asks if you're single/married/have a boyfriend, he's fishing for a date. This is not casual conversation.
* Likewise, he didn't want your number "for friendship."
Seriously, you told him you didn't want more/romance and he went for it anyway. I don't think you can come up with the right words that he'd listen to and stop at.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:29 AM on June 24
I'm sorry this happened. It's just another of the myriad ways that men make it impossible for us to exist comfortably in this world. Fuck the whole thing, burn it all to the ground.
I was very much raised in a kill them with kindness mindset, and I have relieved myself of all those shackles with some intention. It also helps that I live in a big city now and have taken public transit my entire adult life, which imo really helps to hone your response to pushy strangers.
Think of this like a course in defensive driving. When you're learning to drive, you're taught to have a set of safe responses and reactions to hazards so you're prepared when you encounter them. This is just the same, but for people.
Some things you can do/think about. Start small, practice a lot. Quick reactions, unlearning behavior, these are skills. Skills you can practice like anything else in your life.
- Say no a lot. Share your negative opinions in small, safe ways in lots of different situations.
- Practice doing a face. I would kill for a resting bitch face, but genetics blessed me with soft round features and a ten point smile. Cool. So instead I have to practice looking nasty. For me what works is "unimpressed" which is easy for me because it turns out I'm unimpressed a lot. A mix of both pity and revulsion. A look that gives "I'm sorry you suck but leave me out of it."
- Uncharitably assume people are trying to scam you at all times. The ironic thing is that I'm actually much more generous in my opinion of strangers than the average person (recently learned this during a networking event) so it was something I had to practice doing, too. No one gets to hold my phone but me. No one gets to come in my home. No one gets my time. You want that from me you have to provide a demonstrated track record of trust over time. Period.
- Cultivate a sense of entitlement for yourself. Remind yourself of your own value and rights constantly. I have a right to be here, I have a right to order my takeaway in peace, I have a right to not be harassed as I go about my daily business. Anyone who stands in the way of that is infringing my rights. I am entitled to live my life in peace, and I am allowed to be rude to anyone who breaks that contract.
posted by phunniemee at 8:31 AM on June 24
I was very much raised in a kill them with kindness mindset, and I have relieved myself of all those shackles with some intention. It also helps that I live in a big city now and have taken public transit my entire adult life, which imo really helps to hone your response to pushy strangers.
Think of this like a course in defensive driving. When you're learning to drive, you're taught to have a set of safe responses and reactions to hazards so you're prepared when you encounter them. This is just the same, but for people.
Some things you can do/think about. Start small, practice a lot. Quick reactions, unlearning behavior, these are skills. Skills you can practice like anything else in your life.
- Say no a lot. Share your negative opinions in small, safe ways in lots of different situations.
- Practice doing a face. I would kill for a resting bitch face, but genetics blessed me with soft round features and a ten point smile. Cool. So instead I have to practice looking nasty. For me what works is "unimpressed" which is easy for me because it turns out I'm unimpressed a lot. A mix of both pity and revulsion. A look that gives "I'm sorry you suck but leave me out of it."
- Uncharitably assume people are trying to scam you at all times. The ironic thing is that I'm actually much more generous in my opinion of strangers than the average person (recently learned this during a networking event) so it was something I had to practice doing, too. No one gets to hold my phone but me. No one gets to come in my home. No one gets my time. You want that from me you have to provide a demonstrated track record of trust over time. Period.
- Cultivate a sense of entitlement for yourself. Remind yourself of your own value and rights constantly. I have a right to be here, I have a right to order my takeaway in peace, I have a right to not be harassed as I go about my daily business. Anyone who stands in the way of that is infringing my rights. I am entitled to live my life in peace, and I am allowed to be rude to anyone who breaks that contract.
posted by phunniemee at 8:31 AM on June 24
I don't think sending him another message will have any useful effect here and may encourage him. Just leave him blocked and do not engage. You can contact the manager of the restaurant and practice your verbal assertiveness with *them*, letting them know they have an employee who is behaving incredibly inappropriately and that you would love to be a regular at their restaurant but you can't while doing so exposes you to inappropriate and harassing behavior.
posted by Stacey at 8:32 AM on June 24
posted by Stacey at 8:32 AM on June 24
I'm really sorry you felt uncomfortable! It's totally ok that you blocked him. I just wanted to explain that from my perspective, from what you describe, I don't think he was being creepy, I think he actually was fairly respectful and asked for consent to try to date you, and you inadvertently gave him consent.
He asked a series of common questions that have commonly-understood implied meanings and are a fairly common way of feeling out consent. You took his questions literally, - but I don't think he meant them literally. I think he was asking you in a pretty standard way, if it was ok to try to start courting you. And unfortunately, you gave truthful answers that aligned with how many women would give consent. In that situation, if they didn't want him to call, most women would have lied.
It sucks that we have to lie or claim an imaginary man to save a random man's ego and make him back off! But it does work - in my experience, about 80% of men will dial down their flirting if we just tell the standard lie that we're not single. The other 20% are pushy verging on creeps.
"Are you married?" Means "Can I start flirting with you?"
"Do you have a boyfriend?" Means, "Is there a chance you'd date me?"
To my ear, those are not factual questions. He doesn't actually care if you have a boyfriend. Those questions mean, "Are you available for me to flirt with you?" And if you don't want to be flirted with, you LIE and say "Yeah I have a boyfriend" and most men will typically (sort of) back off. They'll also say "He doesn't need to know" but if you're firm like "Haha, no I couldn't do that" they'll usually stop overtly asking for more.
"Can we exchange numbers?" Means, "Can I ask you out on a dates?"
"I only want friendship," in this context, I believe he reasonably interpreted you to mean, "OK, well I do kind of like you, so we can flirt, and maybe down the line it could be more. But just to be clear, I'm not willing to have sex with someone I don't know well, so you need to take it slow."
Then the number exchange moment is the final time you can back out. You have a few options:
Hard no: "Oh, no thanks, I don't give out my number" (clearly saying "I'm not interested in dating you", but that does risks angering some men)
Soft no: "Ok tell me your number and I'll punch it in" and then you never call him (fairly safe choice in the moment as it protects his ego, although he will ask again if he sees you again)
Soft no: "Um, ok... here's my number" BUT you dictate a fake number to him (plausibly deniable next time you see him that he cpuld have punched it in wrong)
Yes: You dictate your real number to him - meaning, he will start courting you
Hard yes: You let him touch your phone, at which point he will type in his number and he will also send himself a text which means he now has your number. When you let him touch your phone, meaning letting him exchange numbers both ways, I think it's reasonable for him to conclude that you definitely like him and want to see him again.
Then he called you when he knew you had your phone in hand and were eating the food he gave you so it would be a great time for a woman who liked him to pick up the phone and chat. He probably tried twice in a row because he figured you were driving the first time. Remember, from his perspective reading the signals you inadvertently gave, you had just strongly implied that you liked him and wanted to flirt more! What better time to flirt than when you've just returned home (to your home that you told him twice is man-less), and you were eating yummy food he packaged for you!
Then he goes "Hmm why didn't she call me back", so he tried a couple more times. Again, from his perspective, you just "said", yes I want you to call me and flirt with me, so of course he's excited and going to try a few times. I think the fact that he just said "hello" is showing he isn't all that creepy, maybe a little shy. A more forward confident guy might have said "Hey beautiful, can I take you to dinner tonight" and a more creepy guy might have sent a nude photo or said "Hey sexy". He just said "hello" to open a convo, and then hung up, so that's pretty much the mildest way he could start contact with you. 4 times in one day is a little much, but remember the first 2 times he correctly assumed you were driving. After that, one call and one text isn't that much.
Next time, when a man asks if you're married or have a boyfriend, you can lie (badly) and say "uhhhh... yes" and most men will interpret it to mean "I'm not available to flirt". If a man asks for your number, say "Oh sorry I don't give out my number!" If he's pushy say things like "Oh thanks but sorry I don't do that". MOST men will get the message (and the few who keep pushing really are creeps).
I will say that handing your phone to a man does signal interest, so maybe don't do that again.
It takes practice to know how to read these signals and get good at managing the dance that's happening and it's not your fault that factual answers, in this case, feel like flirtatious parts of the dance. I hope what I typed helped you feel safer.
In your shoes, I think I'd just wait a month or so before going back to the restaurant, and if he asks why you didn't message him, be ready to say "Oh sorry. I was kinda seeing someone. Now he's my boyfriend." and hopefully he's not creepy or scary (80% of men aren't) and he'll just back off. I hope that's what happens!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:41 AM on June 24
He asked a series of common questions that have commonly-understood implied meanings and are a fairly common way of feeling out consent. You took his questions literally, - but I don't think he meant them literally. I think he was asking you in a pretty standard way, if it was ok to try to start courting you. And unfortunately, you gave truthful answers that aligned with how many women would give consent. In that situation, if they didn't want him to call, most women would have lied.
It sucks that we have to lie or claim an imaginary man to save a random man's ego and make him back off! But it does work - in my experience, about 80% of men will dial down their flirting if we just tell the standard lie that we're not single. The other 20% are pushy verging on creeps.
"Are you married?" Means "Can I start flirting with you?"
"Do you have a boyfriend?" Means, "Is there a chance you'd date me?"
To my ear, those are not factual questions. He doesn't actually care if you have a boyfriend. Those questions mean, "Are you available for me to flirt with you?" And if you don't want to be flirted with, you LIE and say "Yeah I have a boyfriend" and most men will typically (sort of) back off. They'll also say "He doesn't need to know" but if you're firm like "Haha, no I couldn't do that" they'll usually stop overtly asking for more.
"Can we exchange numbers?" Means, "Can I ask you out on a dates?"
"I only want friendship," in this context, I believe he reasonably interpreted you to mean, "OK, well I do kind of like you, so we can flirt, and maybe down the line it could be more. But just to be clear, I'm not willing to have sex with someone I don't know well, so you need to take it slow."
Then the number exchange moment is the final time you can back out. You have a few options:
Hard no: "Oh, no thanks, I don't give out my number" (clearly saying "I'm not interested in dating you", but that does risks angering some men)
Soft no: "Ok tell me your number and I'll punch it in" and then you never call him (fairly safe choice in the moment as it protects his ego, although he will ask again if he sees you again)
Soft no: "Um, ok... here's my number" BUT you dictate a fake number to him (plausibly deniable next time you see him that he cpuld have punched it in wrong)
Yes: You dictate your real number to him - meaning, he will start courting you
Hard yes: You let him touch your phone, at which point he will type in his number and he will also send himself a text which means he now has your number. When you let him touch your phone, meaning letting him exchange numbers both ways, I think it's reasonable for him to conclude that you definitely like him and want to see him again.
Then he called you when he knew you had your phone in hand and were eating the food he gave you so it would be a great time for a woman who liked him to pick up the phone and chat. He probably tried twice in a row because he figured you were driving the first time. Remember, from his perspective reading the signals you inadvertently gave, you had just strongly implied that you liked him and wanted to flirt more! What better time to flirt than when you've just returned home (to your home that you told him twice is man-less), and you were eating yummy food he packaged for you!
Then he goes "Hmm why didn't she call me back", so he tried a couple more times. Again, from his perspective, you just "said", yes I want you to call me and flirt with me, so of course he's excited and going to try a few times. I think the fact that he just said "hello" is showing he isn't all that creepy, maybe a little shy. A more forward confident guy might have said "Hey beautiful, can I take you to dinner tonight" and a more creepy guy might have sent a nude photo or said "Hey sexy". He just said "hello" to open a convo, and then hung up, so that's pretty much the mildest way he could start contact with you. 4 times in one day is a little much, but remember the first 2 times he correctly assumed you were driving. After that, one call and one text isn't that much.
Next time, when a man asks if you're married or have a boyfriend, you can lie (badly) and say "uhhhh... yes" and most men will interpret it to mean "I'm not available to flirt". If a man asks for your number, say "Oh sorry I don't give out my number!" If he's pushy say things like "Oh thanks but sorry I don't do that". MOST men will get the message (and the few who keep pushing really are creeps).
I will say that handing your phone to a man does signal interest, so maybe don't do that again.
It takes practice to know how to read these signals and get good at managing the dance that's happening and it's not your fault that factual answers, in this case, feel like flirtatious parts of the dance. I hope what I typed helped you feel safer.
In your shoes, I think I'd just wait a month or so before going back to the restaurant, and if he asks why you didn't message him, be ready to say "Oh sorry. I was kinda seeing someone. Now he's my boyfriend." and hopefully he's not creepy or scary (80% of men aren't) and he'll just back off. I hope that's what happens!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:41 AM on June 24
Also, if you feel pressured into giving a number and feel that is the safest way to extricate yourself from the interaction, this is a nice one to share: 248-434-5508
posted by phunniemee at 8:44 AM on June 24
posted by phunniemee at 8:44 AM on June 24
First, well done blocking this creep. Good for you! It’s awesome that you are becoming more assertive. Really happy about your progress!
I don’t think you inadvertently gave him permission to do any of these things. There is absolutely no universe in which you have to lie about having a man in your life in order to avoid being hit on. As a customer who had basically zero interactions with him up to that point, he had no reason to think you were interested in him or would welcome this kind of contact. Ignore anyone blaming you for this.
I agree that you should block him and if you want to practice assertiveness, I would consider talking to the manager or owner. I will say with a small business there’s a significant risk that the person working the cash register was the manager/owner, so you might want to skip this step.
posted by knobknosher at 8:49 AM on June 24
I don’t think you inadvertently gave him permission to do any of these things. There is absolutely no universe in which you have to lie about having a man in your life in order to avoid being hit on. As a customer who had basically zero interactions with him up to that point, he had no reason to think you were interested in him or would welcome this kind of contact. Ignore anyone blaming you for this.
I agree that you should block him and if you want to practice assertiveness, I would consider talking to the manager or owner. I will say with a small business there’s a significant risk that the person working the cash register was the manager/owner, so you might want to skip this step.
posted by knobknosher at 8:49 AM on June 24
Also, I do sometimes lie about having a boyfriend or husband. If I get catcalled, compliments are usually met with “yes, my husband thinks so too.” That’s mainly because I have found it the most effective way to shut them up. It’s not because being single means it’s fine for men to treat me however they want.
posted by knobknosher at 8:50 AM on June 24
posted by knobknosher at 8:50 AM on June 24
I don't lie about having a boyfriend or husband because I think it's gross, personal choice, am not conveying judgment on women who choose this as a conversation ender.
If you're looking for an easy reflexive response to this kind of "are you married" question, try this: "are you?"
You don't have to provide any information about yourself. And their response to "are you?" will be fun. "Yes" = how interesting. "No" = you can ask "why not?"
posted by phunniemee at 8:59 AM on June 24
If you're looking for an easy reflexive response to this kind of "are you married" question, try this: "are you?"
You don't have to provide any information about yourself. And their response to "are you?" will be fun. "Yes" = how interesting. "No" = you can ask "why not?"
posted by phunniemee at 8:59 AM on June 24
I wanted to stress that I am not blaming you or shaming you... You didn't do anything wrong, you answered his questions (which were a bit intrusive in a Western context but I would say, not intrusive in other cultures) truthfully because you felt on the spot.
I also acknowledge that there can be nonverbal signals or clues of danger in an interaction that are hard to put into words - so you may have been picking up those kinds of signale that may have added to your "no feeling" and I'm not reading them in what you wrote, but the were there. And when that's the case, we should ALWAYS listen to the "no" in our gut. Some men can be scary! So fear / trepidation / not knowing how to respond / stress responses like freezing or fawning are totally understandable! It is HARD to know how to ride the nonverbal signals, or whether he is awkward or nice or a sociopath, and it's a risk to try to judge the danger, and everyone gets it wrong sometimes so it's smart to be vigilant. If he made you feel scared, you are SMART to block him.
The reason I wrote the above is more to kind of reassure you that I THINK he was trying to be respectful in his world, so I hope that makes you feel safer (not blamed!)
Reading between the lines, this guy is not American, and you are? If a white American man did what you describe, I would think he was pretty clumsy to the point where he might indeed be scary. American culture kind of does say, "Men should leave women alone, many women feel sexually harassed and think it's scary if men express interest too strongly." So a white American man who did this maybe IS a bit creepy.
But when non-American men do this routine, in my experience, they're less likely to be creeps. I observe that non-American men are more likely to think, "Ok the rules are: Men should shoot their shot, Women like being flirted with, Women know to do the dance of claiming a boyfriend if they don't want to talk to me, and if they say that, I will nudge a tiny bit more just in case, but mostly I will be fine and back off if she says she's taken, that's the polite way for a woman to say no." I'm not saying that's RIGHT, but in my experience it's true.
I'm a friendly, smiley, chatty non-white woman and I take Ubers a lot, meaning that several times a week, I spend 20 minutes alone with a non-North American man who knows my name and address. If they think I'm pretty, they always start with "Are you married," and I always say yes - in my case because I am. But I started saying that when I was like 22. In my personal experience that is a coded answer for "don't hit on me too strongly please" and they all shift to this sort of "I like you but I will be appropriate with you" way of interacting that I actually find can be warm and pleasant - and none have ever become creepy to me, even though they all know my name and address. SO I hope this guy is that kind of guy, and he won't be mad and will just write it off as an unfortunate miscommunication and continue to give you yummy food and leave you alone from now on.
I do NOT think you should message him again to set boundaries, or message his manager. I think both of those will feel like nuclear options to him again because I think he felt he did approach you respectfully and you said he could message you. So if you respond with scolding or complaint, he may feel wronged which could it raise the odds of negative interactions in future.
So I think the best way to end it is to play his game, give signals. You gave a great one already by not responding and blocking him. The next signal is to avoid the restaurant. If you wanted, you could come back with a male friend next time. And if he ever asks again, just say "sorry I have a boyfriend", and hopefully that's his language and he leaves you alone. Wishing you all the best!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:09 AM on June 24
I also acknowledge that there can be nonverbal signals or clues of danger in an interaction that are hard to put into words - so you may have been picking up those kinds of signale that may have added to your "no feeling" and I'm not reading them in what you wrote, but the were there. And when that's the case, we should ALWAYS listen to the "no" in our gut. Some men can be scary! So fear / trepidation / not knowing how to respond / stress responses like freezing or fawning are totally understandable! It is HARD to know how to ride the nonverbal signals, or whether he is awkward or nice or a sociopath, and it's a risk to try to judge the danger, and everyone gets it wrong sometimes so it's smart to be vigilant. If he made you feel scared, you are SMART to block him.
The reason I wrote the above is more to kind of reassure you that I THINK he was trying to be respectful in his world, so I hope that makes you feel safer (not blamed!)
Reading between the lines, this guy is not American, and you are? If a white American man did what you describe, I would think he was pretty clumsy to the point where he might indeed be scary. American culture kind of does say, "Men should leave women alone, many women feel sexually harassed and think it's scary if men express interest too strongly." So a white American man who did this maybe IS a bit creepy.
But when non-American men do this routine, in my experience, they're less likely to be creeps. I observe that non-American men are more likely to think, "Ok the rules are: Men should shoot their shot, Women like being flirted with, Women know to do the dance of claiming a boyfriend if they don't want to talk to me, and if they say that, I will nudge a tiny bit more just in case, but mostly I will be fine and back off if she says she's taken, that's the polite way for a woman to say no." I'm not saying that's RIGHT, but in my experience it's true.
I'm a friendly, smiley, chatty non-white woman and I take Ubers a lot, meaning that several times a week, I spend 20 minutes alone with a non-North American man who knows my name and address. If they think I'm pretty, they always start with "Are you married," and I always say yes - in my case because I am. But I started saying that when I was like 22. In my personal experience that is a coded answer for "don't hit on me too strongly please" and they all shift to this sort of "I like you but I will be appropriate with you" way of interacting that I actually find can be warm and pleasant - and none have ever become creepy to me, even though they all know my name and address. SO I hope this guy is that kind of guy, and he won't be mad and will just write it off as an unfortunate miscommunication and continue to give you yummy food and leave you alone from now on.
I do NOT think you should message him again to set boundaries, or message his manager. I think both of those will feel like nuclear options to him again because I think he felt he did approach you respectfully and you said he could message you. So if you respond with scolding or complaint, he may feel wronged which could it raise the odds of negative interactions in future.
So I think the best way to end it is to play his game, give signals. You gave a great one already by not responding and blocking him. The next signal is to avoid the restaurant. If you wanted, you could come back with a male friend next time. And if he ever asks again, just say "sorry I have a boyfriend", and hopefully that's his language and he leaves you alone. Wishing you all the best!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:09 AM on June 24
You don't owe a strange man an honest answer about how you are absolutely single and available to date him. Frankly, if lying and saying you are taken gets him the hell away from you faster, it's worth the lie. If it makes him more likely to take no for an answer, it's worth the lie.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:17 AM on June 24
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:17 AM on June 24
Ignore anyone blaming you for this.
I think there's no blame on the OP, and it sucks that this is how things are and that most (though not all) guys who do this don't even understand how dangerous a guy hitting on a woman can turn out to be and how threatening the experience can feel. Some (though far from all) of them also come from subcultures or social groups where this kind of behavior is considered standard and sometimes even expected or flattering.
But either way: this guy was speaking a specific language (the "I'm trying to pick up any random female person" language) and as much as it sucks, it's one that we pretty much have to learn to recognize and translate in order to avoid being misinterpreted.
It's not OP's fault at all, but now OP is in a position to learn from this for next time.
Also, it's a good idea to not give your number out willy-nilly in general. I've had a relative stranger google me by my number, and later they stupidly told me about it and let me know what facts they'd learned about me and it was very creepy indeed.
I would not write this guy or interact or, frankly, go there again for a while because while he might be like "oh, my bad, I didn't realize and am now enlightened", he's at least as likely to take it as an attack on his ego and go with the entitled, angry, violent approach. And that's the whole problem and the thing that makes these interactions so loaded: there's no way to know.
posted by trig at 9:18 AM on June 24
I think there's no blame on the OP, and it sucks that this is how things are and that most (though not all) guys who do this don't even understand how dangerous a guy hitting on a woman can turn out to be and how threatening the experience can feel. Some (though far from all) of them also come from subcultures or social groups where this kind of behavior is considered standard and sometimes even expected or flattering.
But either way: this guy was speaking a specific language (the "I'm trying to pick up any random female person" language) and as much as it sucks, it's one that we pretty much have to learn to recognize and translate in order to avoid being misinterpreted.
It's not OP's fault at all, but now OP is in a position to learn from this for next time.
Also, it's a good idea to not give your number out willy-nilly in general. I've had a relative stranger google me by my number, and later they stupidly told me about it and let me know what facts they'd learned about me and it was very creepy indeed.
I would not write this guy or interact or, frankly, go there again for a while because while he might be like "oh, my bad, I didn't realize and am now enlightened", he's at least as likely to take it as an attack on his ego and go with the entitled, angry, violent approach. And that's the whole problem and the thing that makes these interactions so loaded: there's no way to know.
posted by trig at 9:18 AM on June 24
I think there's no blame on the OP, and it sucks that this is how things are and that most (though not all) guys who do this don't even understand how dangerous a guy hitting on a woman can turn out to be and how threatening the experience can feel. Some (though far from all) of them also come from subcultures or social groups where this kind of behavior is considered standard and sometimes even expected or flattering.
I realize it wasn’t intended this way but telling someone they gave consent to being cornered in their car and then essentially harassed by phone because they answered a couple of inappropriate questions honestly? Is victim blaming. He may have thought he had consent, although he doesn’t seem all that concerned with it, but she absolutely did not consent to this treatment.
Men behaving badly is common in a lot of cultures, including white American culture. It doesn’t make it OK and it doesn’t mean that people consent to shitty behavior simply by interacting with people from those cultures.
posted by knobknosher at 9:25 AM on June 24
I realize it wasn’t intended this way but telling someone they gave consent to being cornered in their car and then essentially harassed by phone because they answered a couple of inappropriate questions honestly? Is victim blaming. He may have thought he had consent, although he doesn’t seem all that concerned with it, but she absolutely did not consent to this treatment.
Men behaving badly is common in a lot of cultures, including white American culture. It doesn’t make it OK and it doesn’t mean that people consent to shitty behavior simply by interacting with people from those cultures.
posted by knobknosher at 9:25 AM on June 24
I didn't have time to "plan" any specific scripts to say "in case" this happened.
Luckily, you can do that now! These are fairly standard flirtatious questions, and you can decide now how you want to answer them, and/or practice a few different answers until you find one that feels natural.
posted by unknowncommand at 9:28 AM on June 24
Luckily, you can do that now! These are fairly standard flirtatious questions, and you can decide now how you want to answer them, and/or practice a few different answers until you find one that feels natural.
posted by unknowncommand at 9:28 AM on June 24
I get what it's like to not pick up on the cues of Being Picked Up On, for sure, It happens extremely rarely to me and I'm not considered attractive by most people, so it hardly ever comes up and it took me awhile of learning the hard way to figure out that's really where they were aiming with the conversation. Giving a strange dude the benefit of the doubt/assuming he's talking to you not as a come-on is a bad idea, as it turns out. Assume he's fishing for a date and you probably will not be wrong.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:30 AM on June 24
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:30 AM on June 24
Sorry, did you want actual scripts? Lots of people lie and have a few details ready about their fake husbands. They also have fake names that they are ready to give out, when asked. Numbers are harder, and usually I would tell someone that I don't give out my number.
Also? Remember that you can physically leave most situations. Just walk out. If you want, you can say, "Sorry, I left the stove on! I have to go." But you don't have to say anything, if you have a bad feeling about someone. You can just be a funny story they tell their friends later. Your comfort is important.
If a man had asked me if I was married, then if I had a boyfriend, and then asked me to wait in my car, I would have driven away immediately. But I can afford to do so, and I don't like confrontation (or most men, if I'm being honest), and I enjoy the reminder that I have agency.
posted by unknowncommand at 9:56 AM on June 24
Also? Remember that you can physically leave most situations. Just walk out. If you want, you can say, "Sorry, I left the stove on! I have to go." But you don't have to say anything, if you have a bad feeling about someone. You can just be a funny story they tell their friends later. Your comfort is important.
If a man had asked me if I was married, then if I had a boyfriend, and then asked me to wait in my car, I would have driven away immediately. But I can afford to do so, and I don't like confrontation (or most men, if I'm being honest), and I enjoy the reminder that I have agency.
posted by unknowncommand at 9:56 AM on June 24
I read this interaction not as flirting, but as victim selection. He made multiple minor tests to gauge the reaction. To use a burglar metaphor, he was circling the house and trying different doors and windows to see if an alarm might sound. He was very calculated in his stepwise progression.
It is completely not her fault for interacting with him like a human being. But sadly, there are predators out there, much as we might wish otherwise.
The key takeaway is to acquire skills in situational awareness and self defense. Learn to confidently, loudly, declaratively say No! Stop right there!
To get this into muscle memory. I recommend the "model mugging" self-defense classes. These are non-profit community-led classes where you practice getting out of dangerous situations by shouting and hitting a male assailant dressed in pads.
posted by dum spiro spero at 9:59 AM on June 24
It is completely not her fault for interacting with him like a human being. But sadly, there are predators out there, much as we might wish otherwise.
The key takeaway is to acquire skills in situational awareness and self defense. Learn to confidently, loudly, declaratively say No! Stop right there!
To get this into muscle memory. I recommend the "model mugging" self-defense classes. These are non-profit community-led classes where you practice getting out of dangerous situations by shouting and hitting a male assailant dressed in pads.
posted by dum spiro spero at 9:59 AM on June 24
There are times when I get mad at men, and times I get serial killer stalker vibes and this is in the second category. You must have looked creeped out, you didn’t answer the phone. I wouldn’t go back to the restaurant or contact the restaurant. Any attention (in the case he is a stalker) will escalate things. And in the future, I generally started saying “just write your number down… this is a new phone, I’m learning how to use it…”. And if by chance you run I to him then sorry you didn’t call but you got back together with your boyfriend. You could be more straightforward as others suggest but if you’re not comfortable doing that it lets him know there might be another man around. I’m sorry we still live in these times.
posted by pairofshades at 10:12 AM on June 24
posted by pairofshades at 10:12 AM on June 24
Thank you all very much for your responses! Every single one has been helpful in its own way.
To clarify, yes, he is from a non-Western culture, and I am. I've dated men from his culture and understand the norms. Having said that, the ones I've dated have been willing to compromise between us regarding what we each consider appropriate behavior. We always worked to understand each other, not just me understanding them and adhering to their expectations all the time. There was one man who was similar to this person, and it went to the extent that when I told him to stop a certain sexual act because it was hurting me, he told me it wasn't hurting and that he'll be gentle. I was clearly pissed off, got dressed, and told him never to contact me again. He said he understood. The next day he messaged me, "Hey, what's up?" as if nothing ever happened. That's not culture.
We're all taught to adhere to cultural norms when in another country/region outside of our own culture, but when a lot of Americans encounter others acting in a way that we may perceive as "rude" in American culture, in a country (let's say the U.S.) where American culture is the norm, we're told to just accept the behavior. I personally am not willing to accept someone, for example, slapping me in public just because that's what they would do in their culture. I'm not sorry about that, it's simply not okay with me. If I went to their part of the world where slapping people in public was the norm, and I were slapped there, then I *would* accept it because that's their norm. A silly example, but hopefully the point is clear there. I wouldn't go there and behave as if my culture was the norm and everyone should adhere to me. No.
Body language is universal, and if this man took a beat to actually observe my reactions, he would have noticed I was uncomfortable. But he was too focused on himself and his goal to notice. That has nothing to do with culture. He simply didn't care. When he called twice in a row, it was a matter of seconds. He called the first time, I saw that he was leaving a voicemail, and not even 5 seconds passed before he was calling again and leaving another.
It goes against my moral values to lie about having a man in my life as a partner when I don't. I'm not going to say that I do just to get someone to back off. Similar to if I'm bothered while walking, I'm not going to change my route, unless it's a serious life-or-death matter of survival. No, I did not consent to this person opening my car door from the other side of where I was, and then grabbing my phone. I was holding my phone and entering his contact information, and he took it from me and called himself. This wasn't okay with me, and no matter what signals I was giving, I did not willingly hand him my phone.
I've learned a lot here about what to say and what sort of behavior to convey for future scenarios. But I would like to have an alternative to saying that I have a male partner. What I really want to say is, "No, I don't, but I also don't want a relationship. I just want to pick up food and have a normal interaction." I realize this would be quite rude, though. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
posted by Jangatroo at 10:16 AM on June 24
To clarify, yes, he is from a non-Western culture, and I am. I've dated men from his culture and understand the norms. Having said that, the ones I've dated have been willing to compromise between us regarding what we each consider appropriate behavior. We always worked to understand each other, not just me understanding them and adhering to their expectations all the time. There was one man who was similar to this person, and it went to the extent that when I told him to stop a certain sexual act because it was hurting me, he told me it wasn't hurting and that he'll be gentle. I was clearly pissed off, got dressed, and told him never to contact me again. He said he understood. The next day he messaged me, "Hey, what's up?" as if nothing ever happened. That's not culture.
We're all taught to adhere to cultural norms when in another country/region outside of our own culture, but when a lot of Americans encounter others acting in a way that we may perceive as "rude" in American culture, in a country (let's say the U.S.) where American culture is the norm, we're told to just accept the behavior. I personally am not willing to accept someone, for example, slapping me in public just because that's what they would do in their culture. I'm not sorry about that, it's simply not okay with me. If I went to their part of the world where slapping people in public was the norm, and I were slapped there, then I *would* accept it because that's their norm. A silly example, but hopefully the point is clear there. I wouldn't go there and behave as if my culture was the norm and everyone should adhere to me. No.
Body language is universal, and if this man took a beat to actually observe my reactions, he would have noticed I was uncomfortable. But he was too focused on himself and his goal to notice. That has nothing to do with culture. He simply didn't care. When he called twice in a row, it was a matter of seconds. He called the first time, I saw that he was leaving a voicemail, and not even 5 seconds passed before he was calling again and leaving another.
It goes against my moral values to lie about having a man in my life as a partner when I don't. I'm not going to say that I do just to get someone to back off. Similar to if I'm bothered while walking, I'm not going to change my route, unless it's a serious life-or-death matter of survival. No, I did not consent to this person opening my car door from the other side of where I was, and then grabbing my phone. I was holding my phone and entering his contact information, and he took it from me and called himself. This wasn't okay with me, and no matter what signals I was giving, I did not willingly hand him my phone.
I've learned a lot here about what to say and what sort of behavior to convey for future scenarios. But I would like to have an alternative to saying that I have a male partner. What I really want to say is, "No, I don't, but I also don't want a relationship. I just want to pick up food and have a normal interaction." I realize this would be quite rude, though. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
posted by Jangatroo at 10:16 AM on June 24
I also got comfortable telling strangers that I just don’t talk to strangers. I liked that because, well, it’s not that they’re weird creeps- it’s that he’s a stranger and there’s nothing he can do about it.
posted by pairofshades at 10:17 AM on June 24
posted by pairofshades at 10:17 AM on June 24
“That’s a Little Personal, im just here to (buy food, window shop)…”
If you are talking to people for whom a conversation with a woman is an invitation or flirting, you need to end the conversation, not have a conversation or answer questions about your relationship status (full stop)- that’s still flirting and I don’t think you’re going to be successful with boundaries without being unpleasant.
posted by pairofshades at 10:21 AM on June 24
If you are talking to people for whom a conversation with a woman is an invitation or flirting, you need to end the conversation, not have a conversation or answer questions about your relationship status (full stop)- that’s still flirting and I don’t think you’re going to be successful with boundaries without being unpleasant.
posted by pairofshades at 10:21 AM on June 24
What I really want to say is, "No, I don't, but I also don't want a relationship. I just want to pick up food and have a normal interaction." I realize this would be quite rude, though. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
What I generally have done in the past:
"Are you married?"
"No."
"Do you have a boyfriend?"
"No."
Asking for my number, or any other flirting: A cheerful, "Oh, no thank you!"
I recognize that this is a weird way to answer, but as you already realize, there are not a lot of good scripts if one doesn't want to lie about having a boyfriend, and it tends to bemuse people, if nothing else.
Or you could do the joke answer ("Married to the sea" is a joke answer I like quite a lot).
A cheerful "excuse me" is often a good answer if you can get the tone of voice right. Because you can say "excuse me" with the intonation of "I am outraged that you would ask me that" or you can say "excuse me" with the intonation of "Please may I be excused from this conversation right now."
All of these answers make me sound like a weirdo, and that is... not necessarily the goal but certainly a welcome side effect. I am no longer afraid of sounding like a weirdo.
posted by Jeanne at 10:28 AM on June 24
What I generally have done in the past:
"Are you married?"
"No."
"Do you have a boyfriend?"
"No."
Asking for my number, or any other flirting: A cheerful, "Oh, no thank you!"
I recognize that this is a weird way to answer, but as you already realize, there are not a lot of good scripts if one doesn't want to lie about having a boyfriend, and it tends to bemuse people, if nothing else.
Or you could do the joke answer ("Married to the sea" is a joke answer I like quite a lot).
A cheerful "excuse me" is often a good answer if you can get the tone of voice right. Because you can say "excuse me" with the intonation of "I am outraged that you would ask me that" or you can say "excuse me" with the intonation of "Please may I be excused from this conversation right now."
All of these answers make me sound like a weirdo, and that is... not necessarily the goal but certainly a welcome side effect. I am no longer afraid of sounding like a weirdo.
posted by Jeanne at 10:28 AM on June 24
but when a lot of Americans encounter others acting in a way that we may perceive as "rude" in American culture, in a country (let's say the U.S.) where American culture is the norm, we're told to just accept the behavior.
Hard agree. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. It's just "boys will be boys" for liberals.
But I would like to have an alternative to saying that I have a male partner. What I really want to say is, "No, I don't, but I also don't want a relationship. I just want to pick up food and have a normal interaction."
"Are you?" | "No." (without further comment) | *stony glare* | "I'm just here to order food." | "Why." | "Not your business ." | "Ha, couldn't be me!" | "Do you know how long the order will take? I'm late for my krav maga class."
posted by phunniemee at 10:30 AM on June 24
Hard agree. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. It's just "boys will be boys" for liberals.
But I would like to have an alternative to saying that I have a male partner. What I really want to say is, "No, I don't, but I also don't want a relationship. I just want to pick up food and have a normal interaction."
"Are you?" | "No." (without further comment) | *stony glare* | "I'm just here to order food." | "Why." | "Not your business ." | "Ha, couldn't be me!" | "Do you know how long the order will take? I'm late for my krav maga class."
posted by phunniemee at 10:30 AM on June 24
If you don't want to lie, you can just go with "that's not your business" in response to questions about your partnered status. It's kind of rude and might result in you being called a bitch, but it sure shuts things down fast. Just repeat "that's not your business" to any invasive questions.
posted by yasaman at 10:33 AM on June 24
posted by yasaman at 10:33 AM on June 24
This sucks and I'm sorry!
A great general boundary is that no unknown entity needs your vital statistics, because of identity theft, bank fraud, cybersecurity, etc. You can be suspicious and cautious from the first personal question, and these are super easy to prepare a script for.
But the easiest answer for strangers to "are you married" (or where do you live or how old are you or what's your mother's maiden name etc etc) is "why?" There's very few reasons someone needs to know that, in a restaurant. The prices shouldn't change depending on the answer, nor should the quality or availability of the food. Health code remains the same regardless of your marital status. More importantly, "why" is a push-back in a way that neither yes nor no are. It makes it clear you know what you owe that person: jack shit until they make a decent case for it. Maybe that person has totally good intentions, like they think they recognize you as Acquaintance's Partner, but they can lead with that or explain they think they play softball with your husband or whatever before you give any information away. (And you can still be like "hm, no, that's not me" without giving away your marital status.)
This is standard operating procedure for me, in the same way that I don't tell a goddamn thing to anybody who knocks on my door without me requesting they come there. (Girl Scouts excepted, at least until I find out they're data-mining.) People give away so much important information over-explaining their no and trying to be nice, it makes security professionals weep.
The script you want and the script you should actually use are really different things. You're assuming this man would care about your boundaries if you just explained them correctly, but he doesn't care. This wasn't an actual attempt to make friends/marriage. The aspects of this that displease you are exactly WHY he did it, because it's fun. Possibly also kind of intriguing because you gave him your phone number, which possibly nobody has ever done before.
By giving out your number, you may have played into a code you aren't even aware of, and it's possible he mistook you for someone offering "friendship" in a transactional sense. It's just really unusual to have given him that information under most circumstances, since most adults don't make friends like this. (This is also sometimes how people walk unexpectedly into drug deals, not knowing they've accidentally performed the secret ritual.)
"I'm just here to get my food" is sufficient in the future if he brings it up. And never volunteer information about you that might also be asked on a bank application without knowing why you're giving the information.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:34 AM on June 24
A great general boundary is that no unknown entity needs your vital statistics, because of identity theft, bank fraud, cybersecurity, etc. You can be suspicious and cautious from the first personal question, and these are super easy to prepare a script for.
But the easiest answer for strangers to "are you married" (or where do you live or how old are you or what's your mother's maiden name etc etc) is "why?" There's very few reasons someone needs to know that, in a restaurant. The prices shouldn't change depending on the answer, nor should the quality or availability of the food. Health code remains the same regardless of your marital status. More importantly, "why" is a push-back in a way that neither yes nor no are. It makes it clear you know what you owe that person: jack shit until they make a decent case for it. Maybe that person has totally good intentions, like they think they recognize you as Acquaintance's Partner, but they can lead with that or explain they think they play softball with your husband or whatever before you give any information away. (And you can still be like "hm, no, that's not me" without giving away your marital status.)
This is standard operating procedure for me, in the same way that I don't tell a goddamn thing to anybody who knocks on my door without me requesting they come there. (Girl Scouts excepted, at least until I find out they're data-mining.) People give away so much important information over-explaining their no and trying to be nice, it makes security professionals weep.
The script you want and the script you should actually use are really different things. You're assuming this man would care about your boundaries if you just explained them correctly, but he doesn't care. This wasn't an actual attempt to make friends/marriage. The aspects of this that displease you are exactly WHY he did it, because it's fun. Possibly also kind of intriguing because you gave him your phone number, which possibly nobody has ever done before.
By giving out your number, you may have played into a code you aren't even aware of, and it's possible he mistook you for someone offering "friendship" in a transactional sense. It's just really unusual to have given him that information under most circumstances, since most adults don't make friends like this. (This is also sometimes how people walk unexpectedly into drug deals, not knowing they've accidentally performed the secret ritual.)
"I'm just here to get my food" is sufficient in the future if he brings it up. And never volunteer information about you that might also be asked on a bank application without knowing why you're giving the information.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:34 AM on June 24
"are you married/seeing anyone/do you have a boyfriend?" from a stranger is a clear signal that they think women are property.
My response would be: "I think that's a rude question"
I wouldn't go back to a business where the employees are incapable of treating customers with respect and the management refuses to fire them. For me this includes the hotel chain named for India's most famous landmark and shops where the cashiers think they can stroke my fingers as they give me my change.
posted by brujita at 10:40 AM on June 24
My response would be: "I think that's a rude question"
I wouldn't go back to a business where the employees are incapable of treating customers with respect and the management refuses to fire them. For me this includes the hotel chain named for India's most famous landmark and shops where the cashiers think they can stroke my fingers as they give me my change.
posted by brujita at 10:40 AM on June 24
Please think twice about ordering food from this restaurant via Seamless, Ubereats, etc. where there's the potential for this creep to match up your phone number with an address.
posted by essexjan at 11:19 AM on June 24
posted by essexjan at 11:19 AM on June 24
Said with either a smile or cold glare, whichever feels easier and more comfortable:
"Excuse me, I'd like to focus on my lunch. Thanks."
"Oh my gosh, that's a very personal question from a stranger! Let's talk about the menu, thanks."
That's your answer, and it's true.
Also, it was not true that you were open to friendship with this man who was making you uncomfortable. So, while I hear you saying you don't want to lie, there are different ways of being honest. Not answering a question, or deflecting, is not lying. You are not obligated to answer personal questions asked by anyone, especially strangers. It is often better not to.
I really want you to practice saying not and drawing boundaries, perhaps with friends, perhaps with women friends, because I know you struggled with this with your classmate too. You can even make a joke of it, to start, if that would be easier. Ask a trusted female friend to ask you to do something absurd you would find it easy to say no to. "Want to go jump off a bridge into a river of crocodiles with me?" It's a skill, to learn to say no and get away from people pleasing. And once again I want to strongly recommend the book Stop People Pleasing and Find Your Power.
Because even if we wish men were better or not creepy or not hitting on women in situations like this, the reality is that saying no is a good and important skill to cultivate for all sorts of situations! Whether it's to someone asking you to sign a petition you don't want to when you are rushing someplace, or a friend asking you to do a favor that would be really inconvenient, asserting yourself is an important life skill, and one you have to learn and practice.
One of the things you might need to learn is that you can draw boundaries and you will be safe and okay. That's why it's good to practice on little things with a trusted friend.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:24 AM on June 24
"Excuse me, I'd like to focus on my lunch. Thanks."
"Oh my gosh, that's a very personal question from a stranger! Let's talk about the menu, thanks."
That's your answer, and it's true.
Also, it was not true that you were open to friendship with this man who was making you uncomfortable. So, while I hear you saying you don't want to lie, there are different ways of being honest. Not answering a question, or deflecting, is not lying. You are not obligated to answer personal questions asked by anyone, especially strangers. It is often better not to.
I really want you to practice saying not and drawing boundaries, perhaps with friends, perhaps with women friends, because I know you struggled with this with your classmate too. You can even make a joke of it, to start, if that would be easier. Ask a trusted female friend to ask you to do something absurd you would find it easy to say no to. "Want to go jump off a bridge into a river of crocodiles with me?" It's a skill, to learn to say no and get away from people pleasing. And once again I want to strongly recommend the book Stop People Pleasing and Find Your Power.
Because even if we wish men were better or not creepy or not hitting on women in situations like this, the reality is that saying no is a good and important skill to cultivate for all sorts of situations! Whether it's to someone asking you to sign a petition you don't want to when you are rushing someplace, or a friend asking you to do a favor that would be really inconvenient, asserting yourself is an important life skill, and one you have to learn and practice.
One of the things you might need to learn is that you can draw boundaries and you will be safe and okay. That's why it's good to practice on little things with a trusted friend.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:24 AM on June 24
I've learned a lot here about what to say and what sort of behavior to convey for future scenarios. But I would like to have an alternative to saying that I have a male partner. What I really want to say is, "No, I don't, but I also don't want a relationship. I just want to pick up food and have a normal interaction." I realize this would be quite rude, though.
So, I'd like you to consider rethinking what you consider rude. Now, if the employee was making friendly small talk with you, i.e. "How did you come to like this kind of food?" it would be rude to respond "Don't talk to me, I'm not here to make friends." It would be rude because part of the job of being in the service industry is being friendly - responding with gruffness to someone just trying to do their job is rude. But when he asked "Do you have a boyfriend?" he was no longer acting professionally - it's not his job to flirt with customers. He was being rude. So it actually wouldn't be rude to call him out for his bad behavior - I wouldn't advocate being over the top about it, but some the scripts already provided to you, like "that's none of your business" are a polite and firm way of calling it out. Honestly, you'd be within your right to use the potential script you've provided - nothing rude about it.
posted by coffeecat at 11:36 AM on June 24
So, I'd like you to consider rethinking what you consider rude. Now, if the employee was making friendly small talk with you, i.e. "How did you come to like this kind of food?" it would be rude to respond "Don't talk to me, I'm not here to make friends." It would be rude because part of the job of being in the service industry is being friendly - responding with gruffness to someone just trying to do their job is rude. But when he asked "Do you have a boyfriend?" he was no longer acting professionally - it's not his job to flirt with customers. He was being rude. So it actually wouldn't be rude to call him out for his bad behavior - I wouldn't advocate being over the top about it, but some the scripts already provided to you, like "that's none of your business" are a polite and firm way of calling it out. Honestly, you'd be within your right to use the potential script you've provided - nothing rude about it.
posted by coffeecat at 11:36 AM on June 24
>Body language is universal
This is NOT true. People in different places or with different experiences or different neurotypes are going to infer shockingly different things from the same body language.
Eye contact alone, involves so many factors - the length of eye contact, the amount of looking away, whether you look away sideways or up or down, the amount or timing of when you look back, the angle of your chin up or down when eye contact is made, the angle of your nose pointed towards or away from the person, whether eyebrows are up, or partially up, or flat, or frowning, the contractions of tiny muscles around the eyes that can be involuntary, the pupils involuntarily changing size, skin blushing or flushing, open or closed lips, how much you talk with and without eye contact... Then there's smiling, another novel of body language. Then breathing. Posture. Foot / Hip / Chest angles. Hand movements. There is NO WAY people from different places can all read the same thing from body language, even if they really want to.
It's actually dangerous for you to think that body language is universal so I implore you to drop that idea.
It's dangerous for you if they're creepy and you think your body language alone will head them off, or that honesty is the best policy with random men who approach you.
But it's also dangerous for THEM, if they're a POC who has a culturally definied set of expectations or behaviours and they haven't totally figured out yet what people do here, and then there's an ambiguous moment and a white lady unfairly frames them as creepy or aggressive and gets them fired (or calls the cops, or puts an unfair framing of an incident on their school record, or or or).
These things are extremely subtle and layered and REGIONAL, and people's interpretation is extremely different in different cultures. Please ingest that idea!
(Anyway body language aside, you SAID IN VERBAL LANGUAGE, "yes you can call me!". So it is really unfair for you to expect him to know he wasn't allowed to.)
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:47 AM on June 24
This is NOT true. People in different places or with different experiences or different neurotypes are going to infer shockingly different things from the same body language.
Eye contact alone, involves so many factors - the length of eye contact, the amount of looking away, whether you look away sideways or up or down, the amount or timing of when you look back, the angle of your chin up or down when eye contact is made, the angle of your nose pointed towards or away from the person, whether eyebrows are up, or partially up, or flat, or frowning, the contractions of tiny muscles around the eyes that can be involuntary, the pupils involuntarily changing size, skin blushing or flushing, open or closed lips, how much you talk with and without eye contact... Then there's smiling, another novel of body language. Then breathing. Posture. Foot / Hip / Chest angles. Hand movements. There is NO WAY people from different places can all read the same thing from body language, even if they really want to.
It's actually dangerous for you to think that body language is universal so I implore you to drop that idea.
It's dangerous for you if they're creepy and you think your body language alone will head them off, or that honesty is the best policy with random men who approach you.
But it's also dangerous for THEM, if they're a POC who has a culturally definied set of expectations or behaviours and they haven't totally figured out yet what people do here, and then there's an ambiguous moment and a white lady unfairly frames them as creepy or aggressive and gets them fired (or calls the cops, or puts an unfair framing of an incident on their school record, or or or).
These things are extremely subtle and layered and REGIONAL, and people's interpretation is extremely different in different cultures. Please ingest that idea!
(Anyway body language aside, you SAID IN VERBAL LANGUAGE, "yes you can call me!". So it is really unfair for you to expect him to know he wasn't allowed to.)
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:47 AM on June 24
For intrusive questions, go meta – question the question: "That's an interesting question. What kind of answers have you been getting?"
And then just treat it as an interesting subject of dispassioned study. What are the patterns?
posted by dum spiro spero at 11:51 AM on June 24
And then just treat it as an interesting subject of dispassioned study. What are the patterns?
posted by dum spiro spero at 11:51 AM on June 24
That guy sounds way off to me. Having you wait in your car is not normal, opening your car door is bad, and then grabbing your phone? I'd be freaked out.
You said you plan to go back to the restaurant, so: go during a busy time, park yourself by the entrance or cash register while waiting for food, follow people back out to the parking lot. I personally would not ever go back.
A possible explanation for why you never responded to this guy is: he broke your phone when he messed with it. It never worked again. (I've used broken-phone as a reason not to share my number. People think it's weird but they can't argue you into having functional technology.)
posted by mersen at 11:53 AM on June 24
You said you plan to go back to the restaurant, so: go during a busy time, park yourself by the entrance or cash register while waiting for food, follow people back out to the parking lot. I personally would not ever go back.
A possible explanation for why you never responded to this guy is: he broke your phone when he messed with it. It never worked again. (I've used broken-phone as a reason not to share my number. People think it's weird but they can't argue you into having functional technology.)
posted by mersen at 11:53 AM on June 24
That OP had a fawn/freeze reaction instead of fight/flee is valid.
posted by brujita at 11:54 AM on June 24
posted by brujita at 11:54 AM on June 24
I've been single by choice for many years and have found a few things that have been helpful for me.
I realized over the years that a lot of people look at hands, especially women's hands, for rings to determine marital status. The fact that I didn't wear a lot of jewelry, and I didn't wear rings, made men ask me date related questions a lot. I eventually got a set of four really lovely rings that I wear on both of my middle fingers, left and right, and it really cut down on the amount of inquiries.
My replies to their initial question about marital status or boyfriend was: "No, not looking, single by choice." All of that shuts down further questions. Just said in a matter of fact voice, no shade. If they keep persisting I can get significantly less friendly. I also realized that there are some places that I just can't go and be by myself and be left undisturbed. I don't even try to go out to a bar and sit by myself to have a drink.
Hard no to the phone number, and I would definitely flat out refuse to go to my car and wait and tell them I want to wait inside and pick up the food myself. All of that asserts your agency and sets boundaries and discourages someone without a sense of boundaries. Women are reared to put others' feelings before their own safety and it makes me sad to see women get pressured into more than they are clearly comfortable with and may be dangerous for them.
posted by effluvia at 12:45 PM on June 24
I realized over the years that a lot of people look at hands, especially women's hands, for rings to determine marital status. The fact that I didn't wear a lot of jewelry, and I didn't wear rings, made men ask me date related questions a lot. I eventually got a set of four really lovely rings that I wear on both of my middle fingers, left and right, and it really cut down on the amount of inquiries.
My replies to their initial question about marital status or boyfriend was: "No, not looking, single by choice." All of that shuts down further questions. Just said in a matter of fact voice, no shade. If they keep persisting I can get significantly less friendly. I also realized that there are some places that I just can't go and be by myself and be left undisturbed. I don't even try to go out to a bar and sit by myself to have a drink.
Hard no to the phone number, and I would definitely flat out refuse to go to my car and wait and tell them I want to wait inside and pick up the food myself. All of that asserts your agency and sets boundaries and discourages someone without a sense of boundaries. Women are reared to put others' feelings before their own safety and it makes me sad to see women get pressured into more than they are clearly comfortable with and may be dangerous for them.
posted by effluvia at 12:45 PM on June 24
Hard agree. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. It's just "boys will be boys" for liberals.
Completely agree, the idea that men being creepy are doing so because they’re not white also feeds into a lot of really negative and dangerous stereotypes about men who aren’t white being inherently sexually aggressive. I’m not white and there are different ways of interacting but this was obviously way beyond that.
posted by knobknosher at 1:12 PM on June 24
Completely agree, the idea that men being creepy are doing so because they’re not white also feeds into a lot of really negative and dangerous stereotypes about men who aren’t white being inherently sexually aggressive. I’m not white and there are different ways of interacting but this was obviously way beyond that.
posted by knobknosher at 1:12 PM on June 24
I’m not white either and I’m NOT saying I found him sexually aggressive at all. I’m saying I think he was asking indirect questions to get consent for more contact, which unfortunately were understood literally and answered literally by the OP. So she did not want him to call her, but it’s reasonable that he interpreted a woman saying “sure you can call me” as consent for him to call her. (And note that when he did call and text he did NOT behave sexually even though many men would).
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:48 PM on June 24
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:48 PM on June 24
Just a quick update that despite blocking his number, he both called me and messaged me on WhatsApp this afternoon. I use it everyday, but it didn't even occur to me to block him there too. I've done so now, but the fact that he contacted me there shows that he knew I blocked him elsewhere and he couldn't get through. People like that don't care about boundaries. I'm actually convinced they don't even perceive them as boundaries, just obstacles that are in the way. Like a spiderweb that they brush out of the way as they continue moving forward, as if it's nothing. It's not about culture. He's a creep.
posted by Jangatroo at 2:49 PM on June 24
posted by Jangatroo at 2:49 PM on June 24
I'm so angry for you that this piece of shit ruined your regional cuisine hookup.
posted by phunniemee at 3:08 PM on June 24
posted by phunniemee at 3:08 PM on June 24
Also want to nth the suggestion not to go back to the restaurant. He might well take any return visit of yours as a positive sign. No food is that good, you know?
posted by bluedaisy at 3:11 PM on June 24
posted by bluedaisy at 3:11 PM on June 24
“Are you married?” “Do you have a boyfriend?” or any intrusive question
[pause] “Why do ask?” [stony-faced stare]
If they persist, “Not interested”
Don’t go back. Pray that he’s not a relative of the owner and will be fired soon. Have a friend order and pick up for you.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 3:14 PM on June 24
[pause] “Why do ask?” [stony-faced stare]
If they persist, “Not interested”
Don’t go back. Pray that he’s not a relative of the owner and will be fired soon. Have a friend order and pick up for you.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 3:14 PM on June 24
Whether or not he's being aggressive is not for me to say, but he's definitely being annoying and can't take a hint, and shouldn't be hitting on customers. I wouldn't take the nuclear option of sending a stern message. That only invites further pleading and cajoling, or on the flipside, actual anger. Just block him, ignore him and order through Uber. After a few weeks pass and he forgets about you, you can go back in there and order, and act like nothing happened to preserve his dignity and prevent any future drama. If at that point he still can't take a hint, then smile and mention your boyfriend and let him think "aw what a shame" rather than "I hate that *&^%$". Better to avoid making any enemies if you can manage it. It's sad that this is the reality, but being a human in a society is pretty complicated these days.
posted by winterportage at 3:45 PM on June 24
posted by winterportage at 3:45 PM on June 24
Please read Neil Strauss' The Game, about pickup artists (of all cultures). The game is about taking as many shots as possible in order to score.
It will open your eyes to what guy like this are trying to do, and how much of a non-person you are to them. Once you understand that, you will let go of worrying about being rude.
PUAs are easy to spot. They go full court press within 5 seconds. Obviously they don't know you or care about you. Movie-style meet-cutes are not real.
posted by dum spiro spero at 3:58 PM on June 24
It will open your eyes to what guy like this are trying to do, and how much of a non-person you are to them. Once you understand that, you will let go of worrying about being rude.
PUAs are easy to spot. They go full court press within 5 seconds. Obviously they don't know you or care about you. Movie-style meet-cutes are not real.
posted by dum spiro spero at 3:58 PM on June 24
It's commendable that you don't want to lie about your relationship status. However, the most dangerous people are those who don't care about your boundaries at all. So your boundary-stating scripts will work on exactly the wrong people - the harmless ones who were just being socially awkward. It's useful to have scripts for those interactions. But for people who truly seem threatening, please reconsider your values. You do not owe a predator honesty. The world does not get better when we're honest to predators.
In addition, I'm not sure any of the scripts will practically work for you when you feel scared. You're comfortable being assertive in calm situations, and that's wonderful. But when you're scared, I think it will be much, much harder to be confrontative than to lie. Talking about an imaginary boyfriend to keep yourself safe lets the conversation end safely. It makes me so angry, but in my experience, men who'll chat you up are often also the ones who get aggressive when they're ridiculed, or ignored, or just calmly told to mind their own business.
I think you should think about how to be safe, as well as true to yourself. I'm not saying that this guy in the restaurant is a predator, of course. No way to know, he might just be very weird. But your body was sensing something off, and he was acting extremely strange. I would definitely not go back. I'm already worried he wanted you to wait in the car so he could memorize the license plate.
posted by toucan at 4:07 PM on June 24
In addition, I'm not sure any of the scripts will practically work for you when you feel scared. You're comfortable being assertive in calm situations, and that's wonderful. But when you're scared, I think it will be much, much harder to be confrontative than to lie. Talking about an imaginary boyfriend to keep yourself safe lets the conversation end safely. It makes me so angry, but in my experience, men who'll chat you up are often also the ones who get aggressive when they're ridiculed, or ignored, or just calmly told to mind their own business.
I think you should think about how to be safe, as well as true to yourself. I'm not saying that this guy in the restaurant is a predator, of course. No way to know, he might just be very weird. But your body was sensing something off, and he was acting extremely strange. I would definitely not go back. I'm already worried he wanted you to wait in the car so he could memorize the license plate.
posted by toucan at 4:07 PM on June 24
This might already be in the comments but just adding: trying to have the perfect script for every possibly triggering/dangerous/activating scenario can be a common but double-edged trauma response.
In this case, you are legitimately being harassed, and no one would have the perfect script for that. Even someone who didn’t have any people pleasing tendencies, etc. and if it were me, I would definitely be having various trauma responses right now. And I’d probably be inclined to jump into problem solving mode to regain a sense of safety.
Your brain is trying to protect you from people pleasing tendencies AND from ever letting people like this creep invade your space. So it can easily start to spiral into “if I just do XYZ, [bad thing] will never happen again!” And “if I just prepare a FEW more scripts… supplies… techniques… etc I will be safe!” It can become a huge psychic burden over time to keep internalizing more and more things to be hyper vigilant of, remembering and carrying around (literally and figuratively).
Not in any way saying that you shouldn’t follow your gut and do more scripting / mantra work! It can definitely be proactively helpful. Just be careful about directing your frustration inward and/or turning it into a script in a REACTIVE way right after something like this happens. Even if it’s in service of salvaging a sense of agency or meaning after the event, it can be a quick and slippery slope to post-traumatic hyper vigilance.
Be kind to yourself, ask for extra supports from your supportive people for the next little bit, and give yourself space to just process and emote.
Also fuck that guy. Really sorry you dealt with that.
posted by seemoorglass at 4:21 PM on June 24
In this case, you are legitimately being harassed, and no one would have the perfect script for that. Even someone who didn’t have any people pleasing tendencies, etc. and if it were me, I would definitely be having various trauma responses right now. And I’d probably be inclined to jump into problem solving mode to regain a sense of safety.
Your brain is trying to protect you from people pleasing tendencies AND from ever letting people like this creep invade your space. So it can easily start to spiral into “if I just do XYZ, [bad thing] will never happen again!” And “if I just prepare a FEW more scripts… supplies… techniques… etc I will be safe!” It can become a huge psychic burden over time to keep internalizing more and more things to be hyper vigilant of, remembering and carrying around (literally and figuratively).
Not in any way saying that you shouldn’t follow your gut and do more scripting / mantra work! It can definitely be proactively helpful. Just be careful about directing your frustration inward and/or turning it into a script in a REACTIVE way right after something like this happens. Even if it’s in service of salvaging a sense of agency or meaning after the event, it can be a quick and slippery slope to post-traumatic hyper vigilance.
Be kind to yourself, ask for extra supports from your supportive people for the next little bit, and give yourself space to just process and emote.
Also fuck that guy. Really sorry you dealt with that.
posted by seemoorglass at 4:21 PM on June 24
I want to second a point made above about responses that may make you sound just a little bit weird or not quite fit the conversational flow, but which judo-style interrupt the interaction. They are nice because they are general purpose and you can train yourself to use them pretty automatically. Using them in lower-pressure settings may make them easier to reach for when you feel more directly threatened.
My personal favorite is a friendly "Oh, no thank you!" to short circuit the interaction. Or "I'm all set, thanks!" also works in my dialect. I think it helps that this is a really normal thing to say in the course of a positive casual conversation, so it feels like it sets things back on track a bit.
- Cashier: "Do you have a Whatever Store Reward Card to use for your purchase today?" Oh, no thank you!
- Guy, for some damn reason: "Are you married?" I'm all set, thanks!
- Aggressive NGO staff: "Hey there, do you have a minute to talk about Cause You Care About But Here's a High Pressure Donation Pitch?" Oh, no thank you!
posted by heyforfour at 4:35 PM on June 24
My personal favorite is a friendly "Oh, no thank you!" to short circuit the interaction. Or "I'm all set, thanks!" also works in my dialect. I think it helps that this is a really normal thing to say in the course of a positive casual conversation, so it feels like it sets things back on track a bit.
- Cashier: "Do you have a Whatever Store Reward Card to use for your purchase today?" Oh, no thank you!
- Guy, for some damn reason: "Are you married?" I'm all set, thanks!
- Aggressive NGO staff: "Hey there, do you have a minute to talk about Cause You Care About But Here's a High Pressure Donation Pitch?" Oh, no thank you!
posted by heyforfour at 4:35 PM on June 24
Something else I wanted to add after a few people addressed asking him the question, "Why?" I completely forgot when posting originally that I did this. When he asked if I'm married and I responded with the cuisine comment, I did then ask him, "Why do you ask?" He didn't answer. I figured he just didn't hear me. When he asked if I had a boyfriend and I responded no, I again said, "Why do you ask?" He didn't respond again. He said, "No boyfriend, huh?" I said, "No, do you have one?" I chuckled because, to me, I was clearly trying to shut down the conversation by asking him if he, too, had a boyfriend. But he saw me laugh and said, "No, I don't have a girlfriend."
Thinking about this, not only do I think I have autism (I've thought this for a long time) based on social cues like this, but I also think there might be some major denial internally, and I use humor to deflect. I never really thought about this, but I definitely did this as a kid. I knew when boys and older men were trying something with me with malicious intent. We have instincts to detect these kinds of things. I knew right from the beginning, but when it started at maybe 9 or 10 years old (I developed breasts early), I felt so uncomfortable that the only way I knew how to push through it was to deny that *that's* what was happening. I would convince myself that they don't mean anything bad by it, that they were playing. I thought that if I could pretend it wasn't happening the way I knew it was deep down, that would become the reality. I didn't want to believe that people could be so wicked. I then developed a sense of humor and have 100% used that to try and distract people from harassing me further in late teenage years and adulthood. So I think I did know what this person wanted all along, but was in denial. I knew he heard my "Why?" questions. He just didn't care. I just didn't want to face the reality that someone could be behaving this way in this situation. It felt like a dream. I didn't want it to be true.
These after effects of not being taught boundaries as a child, and not having them heard by men in my life when I did assert them, are pretty intense. My parents would always stand up for me and fight my battles, never taught me verbal skills for asserting myself. Dad was loving but always dismissed what I said as if he knew best. Still tries to, but I set boundaries now and don't tolerate that. It took me a long time to figure it out for myself as an adult. I'm basically there, it's just these one off situations that throw me for a loop. These responses are so helpful, especially the ones about not being able to possibly plan a script for every single scenario. That wouldn't be healthy. Never thought of it that way before.
posted by Jangatroo at 5:22 PM on June 24
Thinking about this, not only do I think I have autism (I've thought this for a long time) based on social cues like this, but I also think there might be some major denial internally, and I use humor to deflect. I never really thought about this, but I definitely did this as a kid. I knew when boys and older men were trying something with me with malicious intent. We have instincts to detect these kinds of things. I knew right from the beginning, but when it started at maybe 9 or 10 years old (I developed breasts early), I felt so uncomfortable that the only way I knew how to push through it was to deny that *that's* what was happening. I would convince myself that they don't mean anything bad by it, that they were playing. I thought that if I could pretend it wasn't happening the way I knew it was deep down, that would become the reality. I didn't want to believe that people could be so wicked. I then developed a sense of humor and have 100% used that to try and distract people from harassing me further in late teenage years and adulthood. So I think I did know what this person wanted all along, but was in denial. I knew he heard my "Why?" questions. He just didn't care. I just didn't want to face the reality that someone could be behaving this way in this situation. It felt like a dream. I didn't want it to be true.
These after effects of not being taught boundaries as a child, and not having them heard by men in my life when I did assert them, are pretty intense. My parents would always stand up for me and fight my battles, never taught me verbal skills for asserting myself. Dad was loving but always dismissed what I said as if he knew best. Still tries to, but I set boundaries now and don't tolerate that. It took me a long time to figure it out for myself as an adult. I'm basically there, it's just these one off situations that throw me for a loop. These responses are so helpful, especially the ones about not being able to possibly plan a script for every single scenario. That wouldn't be healthy. Never thought of it that way before.
posted by Jangatroo at 5:22 PM on June 24
I was literally typing out exactly what heyforfour said when I read his/her post. I, too, use the exact reply "oh, no thank you!", delivered with indefatigable cheeriness, in every sort of situation. I get approached on the street by lots of charity fundraiser folks, and it works there. It also works when being asked most kinds of awkward questions, even if it actually doesn't answer the question. I've definitely also used it when being questioned about my relationship status by a presumably interested male. I have found this phrase, delivered in this way, to defuse the situation and avoid provoking folks - perhaps because it sounds like you're complimenting the person for offering something nice that you just happen not to want.
What's great about it is that it doesn't give reasons. I've found that when you give reasons with an excuse, many interpret that as the opening position of a negotiation, or at least something to hang a bid for connection on. This, in contrast, doesn't allow debate. If the questioner persists, you can just keep repeating similar phrases, with similar cheeriness. Depending on context, I use things like "actually, that unfortunately won't work for me!"
posted by ClaireBear at 6:32 PM on June 24
What's great about it is that it doesn't give reasons. I've found that when you give reasons with an excuse, many interpret that as the opening position of a negotiation, or at least something to hang a bid for connection on. This, in contrast, doesn't allow debate. If the questioner persists, you can just keep repeating similar phrases, with similar cheeriness. Depending on context, I use things like "actually, that unfortunately won't work for me!"
posted by ClaireBear at 6:32 PM on June 24
In my long ago single days, my normal response to “Are you married/Do you have a boyfriend?” was “I’m not interested.” It contains multitudes— not interested in answering the question, not interested in talking about my personal life, not interested in interacting with the dude. It also comes off a bit assholey which never hurts with these types. Practice saying it in the mirror. It works in many situations.
posted by jabes at 6:41 PM on June 24
posted by jabes at 6:41 PM on June 24
It's pretty understandable and more common than you might expect that people have a "fawn" reaction when they are panicking on the inside. I would urge you not to beat yourself up over having had a "fawn" response to this situation.
The major downside of the fawn reaction is that you end up saying yes to people when you wish you could say no, and then you feel victimized, resentful, etc. when they take you at your word, like this guy did when you told him you want friendship with him. Saying yes to people when you want to say no is obviously not in your best interest! It's really worth working on yourself and training yourself to either not panic (which allows you the wherewithal to say the no you mean) or to override your fawn reaction in some way (and I would argue that a universal script IS useful in this case).
So for instance, you might be able to train yourself like so: if you catch yourself feeling uncomfortable, you will always say "Excuse me," and hurry away (perhaps looking busily at your phone).
The beauty of training yourself on such a short, polite, and totally neutral script is that it is ALWAYS appropriate, very polite and inoffensive - and thus works with your natural inclination to fawn where a firmer response like "no" or "not interested" may feel too out of reach. And it's a SHORT script, which is crucial because long scripts are never realistic to say out loud. You would not be able to speak whole paragraphs to anybody even under normal circumstances, let alone when you are panicking, because nobody talks that way in real life!
tl;dr: train yourself to say "excuse me," and leave, because it's dangerous to say yes to strangers when you want to say no.
posted by MiraK at 6:49 PM on June 24
The major downside of the fawn reaction is that you end up saying yes to people when you wish you could say no, and then you feel victimized, resentful, etc. when they take you at your word, like this guy did when you told him you want friendship with him. Saying yes to people when you want to say no is obviously not in your best interest! It's really worth working on yourself and training yourself to either not panic (which allows you the wherewithal to say the no you mean) or to override your fawn reaction in some way (and I would argue that a universal script IS useful in this case).
So for instance, you might be able to train yourself like so: if you catch yourself feeling uncomfortable, you will always say "Excuse me," and hurry away (perhaps looking busily at your phone).
The beauty of training yourself on such a short, polite, and totally neutral script is that it is ALWAYS appropriate, very polite and inoffensive - and thus works with your natural inclination to fawn where a firmer response like "no" or "not interested" may feel too out of reach. And it's a SHORT script, which is crucial because long scripts are never realistic to say out loud. You would not be able to speak whole paragraphs to anybody even under normal circumstances, let alone when you are panicking, because nobody talks that way in real life!
tl;dr: train yourself to say "excuse me," and leave, because it's dangerous to say yes to strangers when you want to say no.
posted by MiraK at 6:49 PM on June 24
Jangatroo, I'm sorry this encounter happened: it sounds like it was a scary experience. It took me some time to develop conversational assertiveness, especially with men. I remember experiences in my teens where older men engaged me in conversation and I literally talked to them for 45 minutes while I was scared and bored out of my mind, simply because I didn't know I could/didn't know how to exit the conversation. I agree with the suggestion above about practicing being assertive in lower-stakes situations that provoke less of a fight-or-flight response in you. For instance, being approached by charity workers seeking donations, salesmen trying to upsell you on stuff, etc. That will help you develop the conversational reflexes that you need in encounters like this.
The trick is not getting angry. Previously, I tried to teach assertiveness to a good friend, and that friend ended up being pretty aggressive instead: that friend's two modes seemed to be submission and aggression. Both of these are reactive in the sense that they let the other person set the terms of the discussion. Assertiveness is about you delineating your own boundaries and sticking to them. The thing that was helpful for me was to understand here is that most responses are not an emergency. Just because someone has asked you something doesn't mean you need to respond immediately, or even that you need to respond at all. There's no need to panic. As I said above, you set your own boundaries, and the other person isn't in charge of the encounter you two are having. It's an obvious thing, but when it sinks in, it's very empowering.
The other thing is that, in my experience, women are usually socialized in a way that makes them very uncomfortable being direct to others, especially men, and they try to pad or soften anything harsh. Breaking this taboo is freeing. For me, it took a while to feel even somewhat comfortable saying things like, "Oh, no thank you", or "I'm not interested, sorry", or "That's not going to work for me, but thanks for the offer". You say one of these, and then don't say anything else. Many women tend to apologize, or explain, or otherwise speak. This qualifies what they're saying and feels submissive. Just let your words stand for themselves and ride out any awkward pauses. It gets easier the more you do it.
posted by ClaireBear at 6:58 PM on June 24
The trick is not getting angry. Previously, I tried to teach assertiveness to a good friend, and that friend ended up being pretty aggressive instead: that friend's two modes seemed to be submission and aggression. Both of these are reactive in the sense that they let the other person set the terms of the discussion. Assertiveness is about you delineating your own boundaries and sticking to them. The thing that was helpful for me was to understand here is that most responses are not an emergency. Just because someone has asked you something doesn't mean you need to respond immediately, or even that you need to respond at all. There's no need to panic. As I said above, you set your own boundaries, and the other person isn't in charge of the encounter you two are having. It's an obvious thing, but when it sinks in, it's very empowering.
The other thing is that, in my experience, women are usually socialized in a way that makes them very uncomfortable being direct to others, especially men, and they try to pad or soften anything harsh. Breaking this taboo is freeing. For me, it took a while to feel even somewhat comfortable saying things like, "Oh, no thank you", or "I'm not interested, sorry", or "That's not going to work for me, but thanks for the offer". You say one of these, and then don't say anything else. Many women tend to apologize, or explain, or otherwise speak. This qualifies what they're saying and feels submissive. Just let your words stand for themselves and ride out any awkward pauses. It gets easier the more you do it.
posted by ClaireBear at 6:58 PM on June 24
sometimes it DOES help to show anger:
Long before the street harassment websites existed I was on my way back to my car when a guy saw me and made a beeline : "Hi......Hi....Hi...." I scowled and angled away from him. He refused to take the hint and continued to approach. It wasn't until I roared "LEAVE ME ALONE!" when he'd blocked my way that he backed off.
posted by brujita at 7:55 AM on June 25
Long before the street harassment websites existed I was on my way back to my car when a guy saw me and made a beeline : "Hi......Hi....Hi...." I scowled and angled away from him. He refused to take the hint and continued to approach. It wasn't until I roared "LEAVE ME ALONE!" when he'd blocked my way that he backed off.
posted by brujita at 7:55 AM on June 25
nothing will work if someone is determined to harass you but in terms of easy responses to give every time without having to think about anything, “no thanks!” with a big dumb smile works well for me in response to almost anything. it is a Polite response that is never rude, but since it is the standard polite response to offers, giving it as a response to requests or demands can often confuse the other party into politely subsiding. Can I get your number? no, but thanks! do you have a boyfriend? haha, no thanks! what’s your name? no, thank you! I called you all weekend, why didn’t you answer? Don’t call me again, thanks!
fake laughs and false cheer have a time and a place and if you feel really hobbled & constrained by fear of rudeness, you can decorate a None of your business easily enough without weakening it. Ha ha, I don’t want to get into it. oh boy, that’s not something I’m going to talk about. the decoration isn’t necessary but if you need to train yourself into saying no rather than yes as your standard panic reflex, it can be useful. the essential thing is to acquire such a reflex so that these guys, who are legion if not all equally dangerous, don’t get to see you thinking it over and working up your nerve. they are trying to manufacture a reality where their intrusive speech is normal and you have to conform to it, and you can do it right back at them, reality is equally yours to mold. have a nice day? you too! what’s your number? no thanks! these are the normal, standard, unremarkable answers.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:20 PM on June 25
fake laughs and false cheer have a time and a place and if you feel really hobbled & constrained by fear of rudeness, you can decorate a None of your business easily enough without weakening it. Ha ha, I don’t want to get into it. oh boy, that’s not something I’m going to talk about. the decoration isn’t necessary but if you need to train yourself into saying no rather than yes as your standard panic reflex, it can be useful. the essential thing is to acquire such a reflex so that these guys, who are legion if not all equally dangerous, don’t get to see you thinking it over and working up your nerve. they are trying to manufacture a reality where their intrusive speech is normal and you have to conform to it, and you can do it right back at them, reality is equally yours to mold. have a nice day? you too! what’s your number? no thanks! these are the normal, standard, unremarkable answers.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:20 PM on June 25
I’m chiming in as another dedicated member of the cheery “no, thanks!” club. A quick change of subject/redirect is also helpful, as some other folks have mentioned: “No thanks! Do you know when my order will be ready?”
Responding to an unwanted question with a question leads to conversation: if someone asks, “are you married?” and I don’t want to talk about it, I absolutely do NOT want to respond with a question for them to answer. “Why do you ask?” might work with a nosy relative at a block party, but not ever no NEVER with a dude I don’t know and don’t want to know. He might not be flirting, but in any case it is intrusive and none of his gorram business, both of which are also creepy.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 11:39 PM on June 25
Responding to an unwanted question with a question leads to conversation: if someone asks, “are you married?” and I don’t want to talk about it, I absolutely do NOT want to respond with a question for them to answer. “Why do you ask?” might work with a nosy relative at a block party, but not ever no NEVER with a dude I don’t know and don’t want to know. He might not be flirting, but in any case it is intrusive and none of his gorram business, both of which are also creepy.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 11:39 PM on June 25
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
You do not have to be nice. You can litterally just never ever interact with this person again.
And don't go back to to that restaurant for awhile and if he is there you just leave. No engagement.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:47 AM on June 24