Minister Sister Ignites Yet More Drama
April 3, 2024 2:55 PM Subscribe
You all are generally fantastic at questions involving boundaries w toxic family, going no-contact, etc. so have a go at mine. My manipulative, abusive sister (who is a minister) is using her possible cancer to triangulate and create drama, even telling my mom she can't give any health updates unless I unblock sister and stop being no-contact with her. Things are escalating and today my mom refused to respect an explicit boundary. I'm still looking for strategies for dealing with this, so thanks for any you have.
I'm 42 and my 45 y/o sister has been jealous and abusive of me literally my whole life. As children, she sexually abused me for a few years. She had more friends than I did, but it. whenever I had a friend over she'd give them presents and try to woo them away from me and to her. As an adult, she's continued to manipulate and abuse. I had a housefire and she told my dad not to give me money because I'd only spend it on drugs (not true). She self-published a book of poems, admitting that it was out of competition with me (I'm a professional writer) to get even re something our dad said 30 years. ago. And currently, she's watching a GFM I have set up for moving expenses and making weird comments to our mom to try to make it seem somehow sketchy. She works full-time and is married to a nice and wealthy man that helps her live way beyond her ministerial means. I am single and on disability for chronic depression and pain (godawful fibro) and cannot afford the $600 curling irons she buys.
I went no-contact with her in 2020. Have never regretted it. She treats my mom badly and frequently stirs up drama about being no-contact. My mom is quite passive and she has old-fashioned ideas about what sisters should be, and my mom is really quite terrible about having emotional conversations. She's definitely pushed it re wanting me and my sister to get along, but I went broken record ("abuse doesn't stop when the touching stops) and she relaxed some. She refuses to see a therapist.
My sister had some medical tests that led to her dr saying she possibly had endometrial cancer. Early into that, before she knew anything, she made my mother promise not to share updates with me. She said if I wanted to hear anything I would have to re-establish a relationship with her. I was not going to do to that, obv. Mom is worried about sister's health and sometimes gives little pieces of information, like that sister is having surgery, but then clams up about the rest. I've asked her not to do that but she does.
Which brings us to now. Next week my mom and I have a trip planned and place booked so I can look at apartments in the city I'm moving to. Yesterday it was my birthday, and my mom opened my birthday lunch by mentioning the surgery thing. Again, I asked her not to do that. She said she was mentioning it because it might "goof up our trip." She admitted that sister has never wanted her there for other medical things and if she asked this time it would clearly be to undermine me. And that sister has her husband and church community and would not be alone and our trip was only for 3 nights.
Last night I started running a fever and was thinking how much sister drama affects my health. I'd finally been getting relief from fibro but some new ailments have moved in and I am refusing to live that way, repeating boundaries over and over just to try to keep some toxicity from worsening my own health. I brought this up to my mom today, how important it was to keep sister stuff away from me, and it did not go well. My mom said that if she gets permission to give updates then she will explain her perspective so I can understand. I said none of that mattered because I was just asking her to improve my health by respecting a boundary. She had no flexibility and no willigness to talk to a therapist or good friend. Also, to be frank, I really don't want to hear about her health anyway. It was like I didn't have the right to have a boundary (which is why they're there, of course). My mom and I live close to each other and see each other a couple times a week and have our trip planned next week. For logistical reasons, I can't cancel or go with someone else. I am planning to be a broken record again and keep being NC with sister and reduce time spent with mom. Ideas involving conversations with mom have a low chance of working.
What are some strategies for coping with this all and for asserting boundaries? I do have a good therapist and supportive friends.
I'm 42 and my 45 y/o sister has been jealous and abusive of me literally my whole life. As children, she sexually abused me for a few years. She had more friends than I did, but it. whenever I had a friend over she'd give them presents and try to woo them away from me and to her. As an adult, she's continued to manipulate and abuse. I had a housefire and she told my dad not to give me money because I'd only spend it on drugs (not true). She self-published a book of poems, admitting that it was out of competition with me (I'm a professional writer) to get even re something our dad said 30 years. ago. And currently, she's watching a GFM I have set up for moving expenses and making weird comments to our mom to try to make it seem somehow sketchy. She works full-time and is married to a nice and wealthy man that helps her live way beyond her ministerial means. I am single and on disability for chronic depression and pain (godawful fibro) and cannot afford the $600 curling irons she buys.
I went no-contact with her in 2020. Have never regretted it. She treats my mom badly and frequently stirs up drama about being no-contact. My mom is quite passive and she has old-fashioned ideas about what sisters should be, and my mom is really quite terrible about having emotional conversations. She's definitely pushed it re wanting me and my sister to get along, but I went broken record ("abuse doesn't stop when the touching stops) and she relaxed some. She refuses to see a therapist.
My sister had some medical tests that led to her dr saying she possibly had endometrial cancer. Early into that, before she knew anything, she made my mother promise not to share updates with me. She said if I wanted to hear anything I would have to re-establish a relationship with her. I was not going to do to that, obv. Mom is worried about sister's health and sometimes gives little pieces of information, like that sister is having surgery, but then clams up about the rest. I've asked her not to do that but she does.
Which brings us to now. Next week my mom and I have a trip planned and place booked so I can look at apartments in the city I'm moving to. Yesterday it was my birthday, and my mom opened my birthday lunch by mentioning the surgery thing. Again, I asked her not to do that. She said she was mentioning it because it might "goof up our trip." She admitted that sister has never wanted her there for other medical things and if she asked this time it would clearly be to undermine me. And that sister has her husband and church community and would not be alone and our trip was only for 3 nights.
Last night I started running a fever and was thinking how much sister drama affects my health. I'd finally been getting relief from fibro but some new ailments have moved in and I am refusing to live that way, repeating boundaries over and over just to try to keep some toxicity from worsening my own health. I brought this up to my mom today, how important it was to keep sister stuff away from me, and it did not go well. My mom said that if she gets permission to give updates then she will explain her perspective so I can understand. I said none of that mattered because I was just asking her to improve my health by respecting a boundary. She had no flexibility and no willigness to talk to a therapist or good friend. Also, to be frank, I really don't want to hear about her health anyway. It was like I didn't have the right to have a boundary (which is why they're there, of course). My mom and I live close to each other and see each other a couple times a week and have our trip planned next week. For logistical reasons, I can't cancel or go with someone else. I am planning to be a broken record again and keep being NC with sister and reduce time spent with mom. Ideas involving conversations with mom have a low chance of working.
What are some strategies for coping with this all and for asserting boundaries? I do have a good therapist and supportive friends.
For me, it helps to think of a boundary as a rule for myself, not for someone else. I inform them of my boundary. Examples from my own life: “If you raise your voice or swear, I will end the conversation/ hang up/leave the room.” “I will read your texts once a day and send you a reply text once a day, in the late afternoon.” “I will communicate with you only after you enter a rehab facility.” At first, it was extremely hard to endure the anxiety of stating the boundary without discussing it. I forced myself just to repeat it, and say nothing else about it and not explain or justify. And it was difficult to be firm and follow through. With practice, I’ve gotten better at it.
Now you have an added degree of difficulty because you’re going somewhere with your mother for 3 days. You’ll need to tailor your responses to the situation, like if you’re in a car or a restaurant. Maybe it would work to say you need to change the subject, and then if she keeps talking about your sister, just stay silent and ignore. You can’t stop her from bringing it up, but you can control your own behavior and refuse to participate.
Your mother might become even more persistent when you set limits; that’s normal. Be steadfast.
By the way, one of my sisters is very much like yours, plus addiction, minus sexual abuse. You’re wise to cut contact.
posted by wryly at 3:49 PM on April 3, 2024 [11 favorites]
Now you have an added degree of difficulty because you’re going somewhere with your mother for 3 days. You’ll need to tailor your responses to the situation, like if you’re in a car or a restaurant. Maybe it would work to say you need to change the subject, and then if she keeps talking about your sister, just stay silent and ignore. You can’t stop her from bringing it up, but you can control your own behavior and refuse to participate.
Your mother might become even more persistent when you set limits; that’s normal. Be steadfast.
By the way, one of my sisters is very much like yours, plus addiction, minus sexual abuse. You’re wise to cut contact.
posted by wryly at 3:49 PM on April 3, 2024 [11 favorites]
Best answer: Another option to work on not letting the sister drama have such an emotional impact on you (and your health)
Imagine your mother was telling you all about the health issues of some reality TV star that you don't respect and don't care about in the least. It might be annoying to hear your mother droning on about the Karadashians or some Real Housewife (FP for Famous Person You Don't Respect) but hopefully it wouldn't actually be upsetting. Then when your mother starts to tell you something, remind yourself that sister is not in life your any more and her drama has less to do with you than Famous Person's drama would. Maybe (if it would feel fun) even do some research on Famous Person and each time your mother brings up your sister, change the topic by saying "Did you hear the latest about Famous Person?" In any case, the message to yourself is you don't need to get all wound up about this just because your mother happens to mention her - don't give them that control over your inner thoughts
Or picture your sister as a very small, annoying pest, say for example a wasp. Everytime your mother starts to talk about her, bring that image, think "oh, Mom is talking about the wasp again" Picutre her turning into a wasp and then image yourself swatting wasp (mabye killing it,maybe sending it flying into the air to land a mile away - whatever feels satisfying to you).
posted by metahawk at 4:28 PM on April 3, 2024 [15 favorites]
Imagine your mother was telling you all about the health issues of some reality TV star that you don't respect and don't care about in the least. It might be annoying to hear your mother droning on about the Karadashians or some Real Housewife (FP for Famous Person You Don't Respect) but hopefully it wouldn't actually be upsetting. Then when your mother starts to tell you something, remind yourself that sister is not in life your any more and her drama has less to do with you than Famous Person's drama would. Maybe (if it would feel fun) even do some research on Famous Person and each time your mother brings up your sister, change the topic by saying "Did you hear the latest about Famous Person?" In any case, the message to yourself is you don't need to get all wound up about this just because your mother happens to mention her - don't give them that control over your inner thoughts
Or picture your sister as a very small, annoying pest, say for example a wasp. Everytime your mother starts to talk about her, bring that image, think "oh, Mom is talking about the wasp again" Picutre her turning into a wasp and then image yourself swatting wasp (mabye killing it,maybe sending it flying into the air to land a mile away - whatever feels satisfying to you).
posted by metahawk at 4:28 PM on April 3, 2024 [15 favorites]
When I get upset, at some point I remember ask myself the following question:
Step off the merry-go-round of morbid obsessive ruminations. You have better things to do.
posted by y2karl at 4:51 PM on April 3, 2024 [7 favorites]
Of what precious few minutes of my life that I have left, how many do I want to waste on this shit?I find it helps to clear my mind more often than not.
Step off the merry-go-round of morbid obsessive ruminations. You have better things to do.
posted by y2karl at 4:51 PM on April 3, 2024 [7 favorites]
I think I might feel like countering an unwanted mom update with, "Gosh, mom, her life must be so stressful. Imagine if her congregation knew she had a multi-year history of being a child sexual abuser." I'm not recommending this as a good idea, necessarily, but it might be a satisfying scenario to imagine while you're picturing swatting the wasp.
posted by shadygrove at 6:26 PM on April 3, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by shadygrove at 6:26 PM on April 3, 2024 [1 favorite]
I never went full no-contact, but I got very good at boundaries. I moved 1,000 miles away and went a year with no phone in the 70s because you can't manipulate somebody who can easily get off the payphone.
Read Stop Walking on Eggshells, it's helpful regarding boundaries. The library probably has it.
There are costs to reducing or ending contact, like a postponed trip. With your Mom, keep a mental list of topics. When she brings up your sister, allow her to tell you basic news and to share her own feelings, then bring up a new topic. Distraction is a really useful tool.
Your sister takes up all the bandwidth. Reclaim some. Read an interesting article, share it with your Mom, save up some jokes, or just some cool pictures from Pinterest or wherever. Find the overlap of what books you and your Mom can enjoy, read and discuss. Get her to teach you to knit or some other skill. This might drive sister a bit nuts, but she isn't the point. She makes herself the center of everybody's life, but you can carve out territory away from her.
Your sister is toxic and a bully. I'm so sorry she's done you such harm. I think moving is going to be a big help. Distance is a great boundary.
posted by theora55 at 6:33 PM on April 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
Read Stop Walking on Eggshells, it's helpful regarding boundaries. The library probably has it.
There are costs to reducing or ending contact, like a postponed trip. With your Mom, keep a mental list of topics. When she brings up your sister, allow her to tell you basic news and to share her own feelings, then bring up a new topic. Distraction is a really useful tool.
Your sister takes up all the bandwidth. Reclaim some. Read an interesting article, share it with your Mom, save up some jokes, or just some cool pictures from Pinterest or wherever. Find the overlap of what books you and your Mom can enjoy, read and discuss. Get her to teach you to knit or some other skill. This might drive sister a bit nuts, but she isn't the point. She makes herself the center of everybody's life, but you can carve out territory away from her.
Your sister is toxic and a bully. I'm so sorry she's done you such harm. I think moving is going to be a big help. Distance is a great boundary.
posted by theora55 at 6:33 PM on April 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
Is this a boundary worth having with your mother? It's not your problem if your mother shares information with you that your sister doesn't want her to, it's her problem. It doesn't sound like she's doing it to wheedle you into resuming contact. So really this is just another not terribly interesting thing your mother tells you about--tune her out, change the topic, nod politely, whatever.
I definitely do want to acknowledge it's easy to imagine scenarios where your mom is expecting you to care, or making it your problem that she's meant to not be sharing information, but that wasn't what I took from your description.
posted by hoyland at 6:38 PM on April 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
I definitely do want to acknowledge it's easy to imagine scenarios where your mom is expecting you to care, or making it your problem that she's meant to not be sharing information, but that wasn't what I took from your description.
posted by hoyland at 6:38 PM on April 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
I just relearned the "Grey Rock" method of engaging when you can't realistically set or maintain boundaries with someone, and this matches a lot of answers so far. Just respond as boringly, non-commitally, non-emotionally, and with the least amount of words possible. A lot of dry "mmm," "huh," "oh," or one-word responses, or "I don't know/I'm not sure".
posted by wannabecounselor at 7:56 PM on April 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by wannabecounselor at 7:56 PM on April 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
Yeah, grey rock. They teach in military SERE training that if they try interrogating you/indoctinating you/manipulating you, your best strategy is to just refuse to engage. Don't even let your mind think of responses, objections, etc. because resistance is still engaging. Just "hm" or "ok (shrug)" and change the subject. Or treat mom like she's telling you about a boring dream she had or reading you a fictional story you're not particularly interested in.
All the demanding she not talk about it and giving reasons and getting mad... is you engaging with the topic. Just stop doing that. (Easier said than done, I know, but it works)
posted by ctmf at 1:03 AM on April 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
All the demanding she not talk about it and giving reasons and getting mad... is you engaging with the topic. Just stop doing that. (Easier said than done, I know, but it works)
posted by ctmf at 1:03 AM on April 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
Yep, just keep grey rocking her. It’s hard to have a conversation with someone who won’t engage and eventually your mum will just change the topic because it’s not going anywhere.
posted by Jubey at 1:15 AM on April 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Jubey at 1:15 AM on April 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
I think what you are viewing as enforcing a boundary is actually engaging with and participating in the drama you are seeking to avoid.
As everyone has said, let your mother say what she wants and don't argue when she brings up your sister. If your mother has to change her plans with you, say that's too bad and move on. I know it hurts and is not fair. But your mother isn't going to stop engaging with your sister, and you arguing about this is just a proxy conflict for the larger schism.
good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 2:06 AM on April 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
As everyone has said, let your mother say what she wants and don't argue when she brings up your sister. If your mother has to change her plans with you, say that's too bad and move on. I know it hurts and is not fair. But your mother isn't going to stop engaging with your sister, and you arguing about this is just a proxy conflict for the larger schism.
good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 2:06 AM on April 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
Your mother is not the enemy, right? She has a daughter who may have cancer - is having surgery at least - and she wants to talk about her own stress. I can understand this completely, and it would be kind of you to allow her to talk. I get that you want nothing to do with your sister. You can continue having nothing to do with your sister, but this is your mom, who you sound close to.
Can you talk to your mom about confining the conversation to how she is feeling rather than the details about your sister? I can't imagine how she is hurting being cut off every time she wants to share her pain with you. I think you may risk rupturing your relationship with your mother otherwise.
posted by citygirl at 4:07 AM on April 4, 2024 [5 favorites]
Can you talk to your mom about confining the conversation to how she is feeling rather than the details about your sister? I can't imagine how she is hurting being cut off every time she wants to share her pain with you. I think you may risk rupturing your relationship with your mother otherwise.
posted by citygirl at 4:07 AM on April 4, 2024 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Can you talk to your mom about confining the conversation to how she is feeling rather than the details about your sister? I can't imagine how she is hurting being cut off every time she wants to share her pain with you. I think you may risk rupturing your relationship with your mother otherwise.
You have some good ideas here, and the obstacle here is that my mother would never ever be able to distinguish between the two. Even asking her how she's feeling day-to-day is a challenge. . I don't know if there's a generational thing where women don't talk about those things. With her, I'll regularly ask how she's doing and she'll say 'Well, I just got the paper" or something, and if I ever ask her if she's been feeling stressed, she gets mad that I'm asking about her stress. It's so hard when things need conversations but conversations are so seldom fruitful. Honestly, I can't think of a way to introduce any nuance or flexibility since she's so all-or-nothing.
I do see the benefit of letting her talk and just detaching from it, but it'd be nice if she weren't so tone-deaf. Surprise birthday convos about 'goofing up' an important trip and screenshotting texts from sister about keeping me out of the loop and sending them to me without warning or context or when I'm sick myself all cross lines for me.
I'm open to letting her talk.more, but I think she also needs a person she can talk to who isn't me, and if she brings up wanting my sister and I to be "friends like sisters should be" again, then that's a time to go broken record because that's a totally different thing .
posted by mermaidcafe at 8:04 AM on April 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
You have some good ideas here, and the obstacle here is that my mother would never ever be able to distinguish between the two. Even asking her how she's feeling day-to-day is a challenge. . I don't know if there's a generational thing where women don't talk about those things. With her, I'll regularly ask how she's doing and she'll say 'Well, I just got the paper" or something, and if I ever ask her if she's been feeling stressed, she gets mad that I'm asking about her stress. It's so hard when things need conversations but conversations are so seldom fruitful. Honestly, I can't think of a way to introduce any nuance or flexibility since she's so all-or-nothing.
I do see the benefit of letting her talk and just detaching from it, but it'd be nice if she weren't so tone-deaf. Surprise birthday convos about 'goofing up' an important trip and screenshotting texts from sister about keeping me out of the loop and sending them to me without warning or context or when I'm sick myself all cross lines for me.
I'm open to letting her talk.more, but I think she also needs a person she can talk to who isn't me, and if she brings up wanting my sister and I to be "friends like sisters should be" again, then that's a time to go broken record because that's a totally different thing .
posted by mermaidcafe at 8:04 AM on April 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
I have the same sister, and pretty much the same mother. Anytime I am told bad news about my sister to elicit my sympathy I comment that it must be god punishing her for being so evil. I don’t believe in god, but enough people believe in that shit to make it a fun little game for me.
Honestly though, I had to recognise that my mother has agency and if she is choosing to be manipulated by my sister and remain around for my sister’s abuse then I just won’t care. My mother has made her choice, so I don’t have the support of a parent and I am instead relying on other, more stable people. If your mother is so willing to cancel such an important trip on your sister’s say-so, then your mother has chosen not to support you. And she has that right. Just as you have the right to go live a fabulous life without the stress your family of origin brings you.
It has been several years and NOW they are all trying to hitch a ride on my coattails as my life has improved 1000% percent without them. Your life WILL be easier without the constant stress (which yes, this is definately affecting your health, but not that god is punishing you)
posted by saucysault at 5:07 PM on April 5, 2024 [1 favorite]
Honestly though, I had to recognise that my mother has agency and if she is choosing to be manipulated by my sister and remain around for my sister’s abuse then I just won’t care. My mother has made her choice, so I don’t have the support of a parent and I am instead relying on other, more stable people. If your mother is so willing to cancel such an important trip on your sister’s say-so, then your mother has chosen not to support you. And she has that right. Just as you have the right to go live a fabulous life without the stress your family of origin brings you.
It has been several years and NOW they are all trying to hitch a ride on my coattails as my life has improved 1000% percent without them. Your life WILL be easier without the constant stress (which yes, this is definately affecting your health, but not that god is punishing you)
posted by saucysault at 5:07 PM on April 5, 2024 [1 favorite]
I had a beloved aunt, who just talked. The same family stories, over and over. I took to interrupting, just plunging in with a new topic that would interest her, and me. She'd look started, but grab the conversational bait. I liked hearing about family, and her life. If she minded the rudeness, she never said. Just wave your hand, say Enough of Sister, how is Uncle Joe? or whatever. I did this with my Mom when she was in a pissy mood and winding up to pick a fight. You'll feel ridiculous and rude at 1st, but it's effective.
posted by theora55 at 8:15 AM on April 9, 2024
posted by theora55 at 8:15 AM on April 9, 2024
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