How to get out of carrot and stick parenting style.
October 12, 2023 9:59 PM Subscribe
I can't tell if it's the ages of my kids (boy 7 & girl 9), or if this is just what parenting actually is, but both myself and my partner seem to be stuck in a dynamic with our kids where there is just so much resistance to everything and we're in a constant state of basically what feels like bribing them to just get them to go along with things. Like most other aspects of parenting (for us), it's exhausting. Looking for some tips how to manage!
A cursory look at previous questions, it's clear we have some anxious kids. They love to be in control, and I totally get that. I subscribe to all the tenants of positive parenting and concepts of being authoritative and not authoritarian. It just seems for the last few years every. single. thing. is. a battle. Mess doesn't get cleaned up. Teeth don't get brushed. Food we make doesn't get eaten. Like, all very run of the mill kid stuff I think? The problem is that we've just gotten into this dynamic whereby the only way we can actually get our household functioning and not turn everything into a meltdown or extended discussion is through some kind of sweetener. Do this and you'll get that, or we'll do x. It's gotten to the point where I feel a bit gross about it - like the kids only really like us for what we're going to potentially give them and it feels just super transactional.
The mess/cleanliness thing is the one that really makes me crazy. I've tried to relax this as much as possible and basically say they can do whatever they want in their rooms, but common areas need to be kept to a certain standard of cleanliness which just doesn't happen, so I'm in a constant state of cleaning things and putting things away to maintain my own mental health which also just makes me feel awful on many levels. This is just one minor and vague example though...
I'd like to somehow shift this dynamic, but I don't know if it's even possible at their ages, or if my expectations are simply just out of alignment with what is reasonable, so I'm very keen to hear from others on their experience of this aspect of parenting. Do kids grow out of it? Are there better ways I can set and enforce certain boundaries or consequences without having some kind of lifelong negative repercussions? At the moment I just feel resigned to the whole situation and feel like anything I do is wrong! Are there alternatives? What does that even look like?
Any pointers in the right direction would be received with much gratitude.
A cursory look at previous questions, it's clear we have some anxious kids. They love to be in control, and I totally get that. I subscribe to all the tenants of positive parenting and concepts of being authoritative and not authoritarian. It just seems for the last few years every. single. thing. is. a battle. Mess doesn't get cleaned up. Teeth don't get brushed. Food we make doesn't get eaten. Like, all very run of the mill kid stuff I think? The problem is that we've just gotten into this dynamic whereby the only way we can actually get our household functioning and not turn everything into a meltdown or extended discussion is through some kind of sweetener. Do this and you'll get that, or we'll do x. It's gotten to the point where I feel a bit gross about it - like the kids only really like us for what we're going to potentially give them and it feels just super transactional.
The mess/cleanliness thing is the one that really makes me crazy. I've tried to relax this as much as possible and basically say they can do whatever they want in their rooms, but common areas need to be kept to a certain standard of cleanliness which just doesn't happen, so I'm in a constant state of cleaning things and putting things away to maintain my own mental health which also just makes me feel awful on many levels. This is just one minor and vague example though...
I'd like to somehow shift this dynamic, but I don't know if it's even possible at their ages, or if my expectations are simply just out of alignment with what is reasonable, so I'm very keen to hear from others on their experience of this aspect of parenting. Do kids grow out of it? Are there better ways I can set and enforce certain boundaries or consequences without having some kind of lifelong negative repercussions? At the moment I just feel resigned to the whole situation and feel like anything I do is wrong! Are there alternatives? What does that even look like?
Any pointers in the right direction would be received with much gratitude.
Ok 7 and 9 is still really young. What you describe sounds normal, if very hard on you, but it will improve, gradually. My kid was only motivated by food, access/loss of access to her computer, or by reverse psychology for a surprisingly long time. And it did feel like a constant battle.
One thing you might try to find out is, are your kids like this with everyone, or only their parents? It was eye opening to me to see my kid be well-behaved for her teacher. What another parent told me is that this isn't unusual...kids often behave better with strangers then let out their wildness at home, where it's safe.
It's ok if you don't win every battle, you just have to keep being consistent and holding on till they are better at managing themselves.
posted by emjaybee at 11:42 PM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
One thing you might try to find out is, are your kids like this with everyone, or only their parents? It was eye opening to me to see my kid be well-behaved for her teacher. What another parent told me is that this isn't unusual...kids often behave better with strangers then let out their wildness at home, where it's safe.
It's ok if you don't win every battle, you just have to keep being consistent and holding on till they are better at managing themselves.
posted by emjaybee at 11:42 PM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also do they have chores? My older one has chores. He gets $5 a week and is expected to do his chores but it’s not a pay for performance - he can’t opt out of doing his chores, but he does get some pocket money out of it. Then every now and again I help him out on a chore and he is soooo grateful.
I read my comments here and I totally sound like an asshole mom but honestly I’m a people pleaser and I hate conflict but I refuse to have kids that take things for granted.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:44 PM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I read my comments here and I totally sound like an asshole mom but honestly I’m a people pleaser and I hate conflict but I refuse to have kids that take things for granted.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:44 PM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the early responses here - Just to briefly chime in, I am very much on board with the idea of natural consequences - I heard of that before and it makes so much sense but I suppose I really have a hard time understanding where the line between that and threats/punishments come in.
The cleaning is just so hard though - Like, I think they simply don't notice the mess, and obviously they don't care about it. But when it's in our shared space it drives me absolutely crazy, so I can't just let it pile up on my own, I would lose my mind and they would just have no idea! I think this is really where the rub is so I just wanted to write in and clarify.
Take the toothbrushing as well. It's night - ask them to brush their teeth. Huge fight ensues. The actual natural consequence is having to get cavities drilled out which sucks. If I say no treats, that feels more like a threat/punishment. The kids would most likely just say fine and still refuse. Then when the treats came out the next day and I reminded them, they would promise they would brush their teeth that night, and then repeat the whole thing over again and that's when I feel like I'm in this Authoritarian mode on literally everything...
(and yes, they did have chores and pocket money but it didn't, and still doesn't work - they don't care about the money!)
posted by sxtrumpeto at 12:13 AM on October 13, 2023
The cleaning is just so hard though - Like, I think they simply don't notice the mess, and obviously they don't care about it. But when it's in our shared space it drives me absolutely crazy, so I can't just let it pile up on my own, I would lose my mind and they would just have no idea! I think this is really where the rub is so I just wanted to write in and clarify.
Take the toothbrushing as well. It's night - ask them to brush their teeth. Huge fight ensues. The actual natural consequence is having to get cavities drilled out which sucks. If I say no treats, that feels more like a threat/punishment. The kids would most likely just say fine and still refuse. Then when the treats came out the next day and I reminded them, they would promise they would brush their teeth that night, and then repeat the whole thing over again and that's when I feel like I'm in this Authoritarian mode on literally everything...
(and yes, they did have chores and pocket money but it didn't, and still doesn't work - they don't care about the money!)
posted by sxtrumpeto at 12:13 AM on October 13, 2023
Best answer: If the punishment is reasonable and you carry through I would worry less about whether it is or is not a natural consequence. In the waking up and being noisy story above the important factors were that the kid believed the threatened action would happen and was motivated to avoid it. I think for the teeth brushing, then maybe you do just stick to your guns and not give them anything sweet until the teeth are brushed acceptably. But you must then stick to that without giving in. For the cleaning, it could be no tv/console until the tidying/cleaning is done. If they struggle because of the quantity of stuff then box up some of it and put it out of reach. (Don’t dispose of it, that’s too draconian). Also, you both need to be on board.
This stage will eventually end.
posted by plonkee at 12:45 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
This stage will eventually end.
posted by plonkee at 12:45 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I agree with the natural consequences. On the other hand, I do not like external motivators like presents or treats or pocket money. Pocket money is something the kids get because they are full members in our household, though they need a bit less than adults. They get treats just because, just like us adults need treats.
I approach these situations with the mentality: We all have to learn to live in this place together. I have as much right as the kids to deserve/ want a nice structured home. I am allowed to get upset or angry because I am a real person with feelings too. Here’s where it can get a little tricky: me being upset does NOT mean I can shout/ vent at them, but it DOES mean I can show I am upset because they haven’t followed the rules of living together harmoniously.
So things like tidying up after themselves, brushing their teeth and shower time are built into routine. This is what people living in the same household do. This is what clean functional people do. There is no excuse. We do have to remind them (because they are still learning), but it’s not up for discussion or negotiation. If they complain, then they won’t get enough time for reading and story time. That’s a natural consequence.
Yes, we do pick up after them as their attention to detail is lacking. We have rules like ‘one in and one out’. And to be fair our standards have slipped a little. But our kids automatically put their shoes away when they enter the home, they put their socks in laundry baskets as soon as they take them off, they sometimes remember to take bowls to the dishwasher (and if they don’t from time to time, that’s okay, cos they are still learning), and they sometimes pick up after themselves especially when there is a one in one out policy.
posted by moiraine at 1:46 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I approach these situations with the mentality: We all have to learn to live in this place together. I have as much right as the kids to deserve/ want a nice structured home. I am allowed to get upset or angry because I am a real person with feelings too. Here’s where it can get a little tricky: me being upset does NOT mean I can shout/ vent at them, but it DOES mean I can show I am upset because they haven’t followed the rules of living together harmoniously.
So things like tidying up after themselves, brushing their teeth and shower time are built into routine. This is what people living in the same household do. This is what clean functional people do. There is no excuse. We do have to remind them (because they are still learning), but it’s not up for discussion or negotiation. If they complain, then they won’t get enough time for reading and story time. That’s a natural consequence.
Yes, we do pick up after them as their attention to detail is lacking. We have rules like ‘one in and one out’. And to be fair our standards have slipped a little. But our kids automatically put their shoes away when they enter the home, they put their socks in laundry baskets as soon as they take them off, they sometimes remember to take bowls to the dishwasher (and if they don’t from time to time, that’s okay, cos they are still learning), and they sometimes pick up after themselves especially when there is a one in one out policy.
posted by moiraine at 1:46 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: When this has happened with my kid(s), I had a family meeting unrelated to any specific incident. I try to figure out if it's a communication thing and often where I ended up -- especially when they were younger like yours -- is posting a picture of the things they're supposed to do. Draw or print something that has a picture of toys sitting on shelves, a toothbrush, etc. That takes (some) of my reminding them out of the dynamic. (The reminding -- aka nagging -- can start me on my own irritation journey so reducing it helps everyone.)
If it's not a communication issue, or if things also need to change quickly, I say something like, "I've noticed you're not picking up your stuff or brushing your teeth. This affects everyone in the family. We have to walk around and pick up your stuff. We have to get extra dental care and fillings are painful. So I want you to know what's going to happen if you don't do xyz." And then you spell out the natural consequence. Sometimes I also make images of this, if it will help remind them, e.g. a toothbrush with an x through it = picture of cavity. Remembering what it's like to feel like a kid, I guess this might still feel like a punishment. But it's separated from any one incident and is a natural consequence, rather than an over-sized consequence amplified by my frustration in the moment.
Looking at your update, the consequences follow not meeting the expected behavior/standard, not as a threat about the next time. So in your example with the treats coming out the next day -- those treats should not even an be option. Don't provide them. If the kids ask for them or get them out, it's a calm "No treats. You didn't brush your teeth last night, so we are keeping your teeth clean this way. After you brush your teeth three days in a row to show you can keep your teeth clean, you can start eating treats again." (Have a calming intervention in the plan for yourself, even if it's taking 10 deep breaths or going into the bathroom by yourself, for when they protest.)
posted by cocoagirl at 1:47 AM on October 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
If it's not a communication issue, or if things also need to change quickly, I say something like, "I've noticed you're not picking up your stuff or brushing your teeth. This affects everyone in the family. We have to walk around and pick up your stuff. We have to get extra dental care and fillings are painful. So I want you to know what's going to happen if you don't do xyz." And then you spell out the natural consequence. Sometimes I also make images of this, if it will help remind them, e.g. a toothbrush with an x through it = picture of cavity. Remembering what it's like to feel like a kid, I guess this might still feel like a punishment. But it's separated from any one incident and is a natural consequence, rather than an over-sized consequence amplified by my frustration in the moment.
Looking at your update, the consequences follow not meeting the expected behavior/standard, not as a threat about the next time. So in your example with the treats coming out the next day -- those treats should not even an be option. Don't provide them. If the kids ask for them or get them out, it's a calm "No treats. You didn't brush your teeth last night, so we are keeping your teeth clean this way. After you brush your teeth three days in a row to show you can keep your teeth clean, you can start eating treats again." (Have a calming intervention in the plan for yourself, even if it's taking 10 deep breaths or going into the bathroom by yourself, for when they protest.)
posted by cocoagirl at 1:47 AM on October 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
Lastly, for food, if they don’t eat the food by a certain time (one hour), the bowls get cleared up. That’s a natural consequence.
I do give one or two reminders though, but I definitely do not plead with them or nag them to finish or give threats or treats or enter into negotiation or discussion. That way madness lies. Sometimes I will give extra reminders for vegetables, explaining that if they don’t eat them, they won’t be able to poop. And if they are hungry because they haven’t eaten their food in time, they can wait till morning.
posted by moiraine at 1:59 AM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I do give one or two reminders though, but I definitely do not plead with them or nag them to finish or give threats or treats or enter into negotiation or discussion. That way madness lies. Sometimes I will give extra reminders for vegetables, explaining that if they don’t eat them, they won’t be able to poop. And if they are hungry because they haven’t eaten their food in time, they can wait till morning.
posted by moiraine at 1:59 AM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I recommend How to talk so kids will listen for the long negotiations.
For tidying up, are you saying “go tidy up” or “why didn’t you tidy up?” That never worked at my house at that age (it does now.) at your kids’ age we had a routine that before dinner, I would put on dance music for a “how fast can you tidy”-off, with times posted on our blackboard wall. Sneaky fact: one child figure out he could tidy early and win. That worked I think because:
- it was a routine
- the music was a clear start/end
- we had fun
We also had things organized so it was easy (small bins on IKEA shelves) and not excessive toys (we rotated them.)
For rooms we tidied before bed but generally I did help because they were tired at that point.
Teeth were non-negotiable so no tricks there.
For food, I subscribed to Elyn Satter - my job is to put the food on the table. After that it’s their choice. I always put on thing on the table I was reasonably sure they would eat. I didn’t withhold dessert.,I can’t say they are perfect eaters but they are pleasant and adventurous now. There were nights they didn’t eat and were cranky in the morning.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:59 AM on October 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
For tidying up, are you saying “go tidy up” or “why didn’t you tidy up?” That never worked at my house at that age (it does now.) at your kids’ age we had a routine that before dinner, I would put on dance music for a “how fast can you tidy”-off, with times posted on our blackboard wall. Sneaky fact: one child figure out he could tidy early and win. That worked I think because:
- it was a routine
- the music was a clear start/end
- we had fun
We also had things organized so it was easy (small bins on IKEA shelves) and not excessive toys (we rotated them.)
For rooms we tidied before bed but generally I did help because they were tired at that point.
Teeth were non-negotiable so no tricks there.
For food, I subscribed to Elyn Satter - my job is to put the food on the table. After that it’s their choice. I always put on thing on the table I was reasonably sure they would eat. I didn’t withhold dessert.,I can’t say they are perfect eaters but they are pleasant and adventurous now. There were nights they didn’t eat and were cranky in the morning.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:59 AM on October 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
I used the 1-2-3 counting to give them control and space. There’s some books on it but they are very short because you literally: ask them to do something calmly. Tell them a second time and add that you will now count to 3/5 and then X consequence will happen. Calmly and slowly count to 3/5 and deliver consequence without further negotiation.
I can now count 1,2.. and my kids scramble. It’s not a drill sergeant thing, I’m super calm and slow about it but they know I will deliver. The consequences are also very small! Like no you can’t have extra time on the iPad or I will give the last cookies to your sister instead. It’s Pavlovian almost and it takes away the misery because it’s an understood and neutral action.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:10 AM on October 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can now count 1,2.. and my kids scramble. It’s not a drill sergeant thing, I’m super calm and slow about it but they know I will deliver. The consequences are also very small! Like no you can’t have extra time on the iPad or I will give the last cookies to your sister instead. It’s Pavlovian almost and it takes away the misery because it’s an understood and neutral action.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:10 AM on October 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think for kids that young, and for things that shouldn’t be optional like teeth brushing or tidying, consequences and rewards, even natural consequences, don’t work great. What worked for me better (my kids are in their 20s now) was just making them do the thing, which sounds high conflict but it doesn’t have to be.
Like, with teethbrushing, you’re telling them time to brush their teeth and then they don’t go and do it? So you walk over and stand right with them and calmly break it down into minimal steps: stand up; walk to the bathroom with them; pick up your brush; toothpaste on brush; brush. And just don’t engage with anything other than obedience with the next step. Most kids (not all! There are all sorts of kids with all sorts of ways of being, but this does work for lots of them.) won’t ultimately disobey or fight about this sort of minimal step by step supervision.
The downside for you is that it’s laborious, and you have to keep your temper through it, and it feels like you’re babying a kid who should be able to just do the thing. And it’s not as good for maintaining a clean space, because you’re not there when the mess is generated; you have to manage the kid through cleaning after the fact. But in the situations it works for, it really works.
(I just had a funny moment with my 22-year old son. We were talking about this sort of thing, and I had a particular way of saying “Stand on your feet” which was sort of the signal that I was giving orders that they were going to obey now — it wasn’t something I developed consciously, just a habit. I mentioned that to him, and he didn’t actually remember it because this was all from when they were fairly little. So I said it in the tone and with the cadence I used to use, and he jerked upright and looked alarmed — while he hadn’t remembered it consciously, hearing it had almost lifted him involuntarily out of his chair.)
posted by LizardBreath at 4:29 AM on October 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Like, with teethbrushing, you’re telling them time to brush their teeth and then they don’t go and do it? So you walk over and stand right with them and calmly break it down into minimal steps: stand up; walk to the bathroom with them; pick up your brush; toothpaste on brush; brush. And just don’t engage with anything other than obedience with the next step. Most kids (not all! There are all sorts of kids with all sorts of ways of being, but this does work for lots of them.) won’t ultimately disobey or fight about this sort of minimal step by step supervision.
The downside for you is that it’s laborious, and you have to keep your temper through it, and it feels like you’re babying a kid who should be able to just do the thing. And it’s not as good for maintaining a clean space, because you’re not there when the mess is generated; you have to manage the kid through cleaning after the fact. But in the situations it works for, it really works.
(I just had a funny moment with my 22-year old son. We were talking about this sort of thing, and I had a particular way of saying “Stand on your feet” which was sort of the signal that I was giving orders that they were going to obey now — it wasn’t something I developed consciously, just a habit. I mentioned that to him, and he didn’t actually remember it because this was all from when they were fairly little. So I said it in the tone and with the cadence I used to use, and he jerked upright and looked alarmed — while he hadn’t remembered it consciously, hearing it had almost lifted him involuntarily out of his chair.)
posted by LizardBreath at 4:29 AM on October 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Positive Discipline by Dr Jane Nelsen. There's a whole series of excellent books, and a website.
posted by interbeing at 4:55 AM on October 13, 2023
posted by interbeing at 4:55 AM on October 13, 2023
(caveat: I'm not a parent, the following is based on being on the receiving end of efforts to get me to clean up as a kid, and on time spent with other families.)
The cleaning is just so hard though - Like, I think they simply don't notice the mess, and obviously they don't care about it.
Having lived with enough people who just didn't notice mess or dirt, I've come to the conclusion that for a lot of us it's something we actually have to be taught. As is seeing cleaning up as a non-terrible part of day to day life.
Cleaning and cleaning up both suck because it's boring and it often feels like a punishment - you're stuck doing this thing while other people are doing other stuff that surely must be more fun. So I agree with warriorqueen's suggestion above - put on music, make it something you all do together as a regular part of the daily routine. Make games or challenges, make up funny songs about putting stuff away, etc. Do make sure there's a place for everything to go, and when they're isn't a place figure one out together with them. One bonus of doing cleanup time together is that (eventually, once the routine is ingrained) it goes faster that way, and you can point out how fast it is.
For other things, like building a habit of putting shoes, dishes, etc. in their place right away, I'd work on them one by one, modeling where they go, showing that you do it too, explaining why it helps (less cleaning time later! Less tripping over stuff!), etc. Probably a years-long process for some things, with plenty of regressions, and not everything is worth negative enforcement. But eventually things tend to become routine.
If your kids are anything like I was, they'll see any move to get them to do more unfun things as a gross oppression. They didn't have to do it before and everything was fine, right? Why is Paradise being lost, Eden being ruined? Clearly they're being taken advantage of by lazy parents and turned into modern-day Cinderellas. I still viscerally remember that feeling. But I also learned to do the things, you know?
And acknowledgement for jobs well done and for being so grown up, and thank yous, go a long way sometimes.
posted by trig at 5:05 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
The cleaning is just so hard though - Like, I think they simply don't notice the mess, and obviously they don't care about it.
Having lived with enough people who just didn't notice mess or dirt, I've come to the conclusion that for a lot of us it's something we actually have to be taught. As is seeing cleaning up as a non-terrible part of day to day life.
Cleaning and cleaning up both suck because it's boring and it often feels like a punishment - you're stuck doing this thing while other people are doing other stuff that surely must be more fun. So I agree with warriorqueen's suggestion above - put on music, make it something you all do together as a regular part of the daily routine. Make games or challenges, make up funny songs about putting stuff away, etc. Do make sure there's a place for everything to go, and when they're isn't a place figure one out together with them. One bonus of doing cleanup time together is that (eventually, once the routine is ingrained) it goes faster that way, and you can point out how fast it is.
For other things, like building a habit of putting shoes, dishes, etc. in their place right away, I'd work on them one by one, modeling where they go, showing that you do it too, explaining why it helps (less cleaning time later! Less tripping over stuff!), etc. Probably a years-long process for some things, with plenty of regressions, and not everything is worth negative enforcement. But eventually things tend to become routine.
If your kids are anything like I was, they'll see any move to get them to do more unfun things as a gross oppression. They didn't have to do it before and everything was fine, right? Why is Paradise being lost, Eden being ruined? Clearly they're being taken advantage of by lazy parents and turned into modern-day Cinderellas. I still viscerally remember that feeling. But I also learned to do the things, you know?
And acknowledgement for jobs well done and for being so grown up, and thank yous, go a long way sometimes.
posted by trig at 5:05 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
It sounds like part of the issue that the rewards/positive reinforcements are “extras” that A) they wouldn’t really mind not getting and B) feel expensive, excessive, or unhealthy to give them more and more of.
A different way to look at it might be to find things they not only like but would normally engage in and gravitate toward (high-probability behavior) and make it contingent upon doing the cleaning, brushing, etc. (low-probability behavior).
While they may be a little young, this is pretty much what allowance was invented for, and screen time is an excellent carrot that before long they most likely (for better or worse) won’t want to forego.
posted by staggernation at 5:12 AM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
A different way to look at it might be to find things they not only like but would normally engage in and gravitate toward (high-probability behavior) and make it contingent upon doing the cleaning, brushing, etc. (low-probability behavior).
While they may be a little young, this is pretty much what allowance was invented for, and screen time is an excellent carrot that before long they most likely (for better or worse) won’t want to forego.
posted by staggernation at 5:12 AM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
For food, we've decided that if my kid won't eat the dinner they can have instant oatmeal with milk.
That's the deal. Oatmeal will be fine, it's filling and she won't be hungry at 3am prowling and it also takes a minute to make.
Turns out oatmeal is boring and dinner is usually fine in our case. When is not we just say okay, we can get you some oatmeal. There is no negotiation or back and forth on it outside of that agreement.
No desert or sweets unless she's eaten a reasonable amount of either.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:26 AM on October 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
That's the deal. Oatmeal will be fine, it's filling and she won't be hungry at 3am prowling and it also takes a minute to make.
Turns out oatmeal is boring and dinner is usually fine in our case. When is not we just say okay, we can get you some oatmeal. There is no negotiation or back and forth on it outside of that agreement.
No desert or sweets unless she's eaten a reasonable amount of either.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:26 AM on October 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
Best answer: It might be helpful to try to clarify whether the kids are resisting doing the thing, or whether they are resisting transitioning out of what they were in the middle of. Transitions can be hard in general, and can really be helped with thoughtful routines and timing.
posted by wyzewoman at 5:55 AM on October 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by wyzewoman at 5:55 AM on October 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
Best answer: What worked for us was "next thing".
Teeth brushing happens before the next thing (playing, screen time, outing). Move it earlier in the routine so it's before something they want to do.
Clean up before the next thing (meal, playing, outing, screen time).
Meals. If they don't want to finish eating that is fine. They can eat again at next meal.
We kind of set up a routine that you can go on to the next thing when you are done with the one before. Move the pain points to before the things they want to do.
Very low stress and calm. It's kind of immediate natural consequences but also the next thing is a natural motivator so we don't get into power struggles. And even though in a way it is kind of bribe, it doesn't feel that way because it also is about setting up normal workable routines.
I think what helped was being matter of fact and stating positively rather than negatively. For example:
Yes you can play after clean up
Vs
You can't play until you've cleaned up
It's subtle difference but it somehow it was less confrontational.
posted by halehale at 5:58 AM on October 13, 2023 [23 favorites]
Teeth brushing happens before the next thing (playing, screen time, outing). Move it earlier in the routine so it's before something they want to do.
Clean up before the next thing (meal, playing, outing, screen time).
Meals. If they don't want to finish eating that is fine. They can eat again at next meal.
We kind of set up a routine that you can go on to the next thing when you are done with the one before. Move the pain points to before the things they want to do.
Very low stress and calm. It's kind of immediate natural consequences but also the next thing is a natural motivator so we don't get into power struggles. And even though in a way it is kind of bribe, it doesn't feel that way because it also is about setting up normal workable routines.
I think what helped was being matter of fact and stating positively rather than negatively. For example:
Yes you can play after clean up
Vs
You can't play until you've cleaned up
It's subtle difference but it somehow it was less confrontational.
posted by halehale at 5:58 AM on October 13, 2023 [23 favorites]
Right, that “next thing” works with the micromanaging them through tasks they’re balking at that I was talking about above. If you want the kid to do something, you can just sort of calmly stop everything from happening that isn’t the kid taking the next step toward what you want them to do.
posted by LizardBreath at 6:56 AM on October 13, 2023
posted by LizardBreath at 6:56 AM on October 13, 2023
Best answer: Take the toothbrushing as well. It's night - ask them to brush their teeth. Huge fight ensues. The actual natural consequence is having to get cavities drilled out which sucks. If I say no treats, that feels more like a threat/punishment. The kids would most likely just say fine and still refuse. Then when the treats came out the next day and I reminded them, they would promise they would brush their teeth that night, and then repeat the whole thing over again and that's when I feel like I'm in this Authoritarian mode on literally everything...
I think you are being really hard on yourself. It's not authoritative to enforce consequences to actions, that is normal interpersonal relations. It's also not bribery to tie a positive reward to a behavior.
The way to frame it the day after they've not brushed their teeth is "I told you there would be no treats today and there are no treats today. I know you're disappointed about that and it is okay to feel that way. If you brush your teeth tonight, there will be treats tomorrow. That choice is up to you."
There will likely be a fight in the short term because there are no treats right now - but at bedtime, it is very likely you will have created a motivator for brushing their teeth that is tied to something they want in the future - not as a punishment for something they've done in the past (had treats today so you HAVE to brush now.)
I think what helped was being matter of fact and stating positively rather than negatively. For example:
Yes you can play after clean up
Vs
You can't play until you've cleaned up
I wholeheartedly agree with this subtle difference in positioning - even at a younger age (5) this has dramatically changed my child's awareness of what is expected of her by anchoring it not only to something she wants - but also something she can remember. Kids don't remember what is expected of them or notice what we do and being able to anchor those things to things they can remember is useful.
I also think setting reasonable standards for things will help - i.e., "you can watch your tv show if you spend the next 5 minutes cleaning the living room" vs "you can watch your tv show once you have cleaned the living room" and focus on praising the things that were done well if they have tried vs. highlighting the ones they missed. I grew up in a household with a mother who had tidiness standards that were beyond reasonable and it was a constant source of conflict and frustration to put effort into it and be told it's not good enough constantly. Cue rebellion.
posted by openhearted at 7:02 AM on October 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think you are being really hard on yourself. It's not authoritative to enforce consequences to actions, that is normal interpersonal relations. It's also not bribery to tie a positive reward to a behavior.
The way to frame it the day after they've not brushed their teeth is "I told you there would be no treats today and there are no treats today. I know you're disappointed about that and it is okay to feel that way. If you brush your teeth tonight, there will be treats tomorrow. That choice is up to you."
There will likely be a fight in the short term because there are no treats right now - but at bedtime, it is very likely you will have created a motivator for brushing their teeth that is tied to something they want in the future - not as a punishment for something they've done in the past (had treats today so you HAVE to brush now.)
I think what helped was being matter of fact and stating positively rather than negatively. For example:
Yes you can play after clean up
Vs
You can't play until you've cleaned up
I wholeheartedly agree with this subtle difference in positioning - even at a younger age (5) this has dramatically changed my child's awareness of what is expected of her by anchoring it not only to something she wants - but also something she can remember. Kids don't remember what is expected of them or notice what we do and being able to anchor those things to things they can remember is useful.
I also think setting reasonable standards for things will help - i.e., "you can watch your tv show if you spend the next 5 minutes cleaning the living room" vs "you can watch your tv show once you have cleaned the living room" and focus on praising the things that were done well if they have tried vs. highlighting the ones they missed. I grew up in a household with a mother who had tidiness standards that were beyond reasonable and it was a constant source of conflict and frustration to put effort into it and be told it's not good enough constantly. Cue rebellion.
posted by openhearted at 7:02 AM on October 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
With regards to food, I have a kid who has ODD and is probably a super taster to a degree. As a result, food that is flavorful will not go into his body. We've tried a bunch of things over time - engaging him in meal planning and preparation so that he has bought into the process to a degree. The only thing that that helped was that he learned how to make basic foods. If he doesn't eat, he is welcome to go make himself a PB&J. At this point in mid-teens, he's better at expressing what he likes and why and I try to always include things that he will eat. For example, tonight I'm making "chicken and pasta" which is going to be pan cooked chicken tossed with cooked peppers and other veg and some GF pasta and a little red sauce. He won't eat that. He will eat plain chicken, so I'll set aside one piece for him.
As far as tidying up is concerned, that's just become a lost cause in this house. Pick your battles. If you want to pick that battle, find ways to incorporate the natural consequences in a way that's more personal. For example, my son might want to do something and I can say, "I'd love to do that, but you're going to have to wait because I have to do w, x, y, and z, and that's going to take me xyz time. I hope there's time after, but that's a lot for me to do." He would often offer to pitch in and take a task off my plate. I often label these tasks as "thankless jobs" and make a point of thanking him if he helps.
posted by plinth at 7:14 AM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
As far as tidying up is concerned, that's just become a lost cause in this house. Pick your battles. If you want to pick that battle, find ways to incorporate the natural consequences in a way that's more personal. For example, my son might want to do something and I can say, "I'd love to do that, but you're going to have to wait because I have to do w, x, y, and z, and that's going to take me xyz time. I hope there's time after, but that's a lot for me to do." He would often offer to pitch in and take a task off my plate. I often label these tasks as "thankless jobs" and make a point of thanking him if he helps.
posted by plinth at 7:14 AM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
My kids weren't always happy with what I made for dinner, so they both learned to cook around that age. Stuff like ramen, soup, spaghetti where you boil noodles and dump on sauce, stuff from trader joes.
Also don't feel bad about being a bit authoritarian to a kid - they don't know better! Sometimes when other people don't know better authoritarianism is good! Like loading lifeboats on a sinking ship.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:19 AM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also don't feel bad about being a bit authoritarian to a kid - they don't know better! Sometimes when other people don't know better authoritarianism is good! Like loading lifeboats on a sinking ship.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:19 AM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
LizardBreath beat me to the advice I was going to give: "...break it down into minimal steps: stand up; walk to the bathroom with them; pick up your brush; toothpaste on brush; brush." Breaking things down into steps can be surprisingly effective.
As for food, I think Ellyn Satter offers excellent advice.
posted by SageTrail at 7:22 AM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
As for food, I think Ellyn Satter offers excellent advice.
posted by SageTrail at 7:22 AM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: 5 minute warnings for cleanup time, and getting them to hear you and acknowledge that warning, so it doesn't hit them out of nowhere that play time is over. Don't negotiate the time.
The 1,2,3 (or counting to 5) method mentioned above works very well quite often with some practice, and it saves you having to say extra words when your kids already know the consequence (whatever it is).
They're old enough to have a real heart to heart talk with them about needing to clean up and brush their teeth, and any other home expectations and responsibilities. Not in the evening when it all has to happen NOW and you're all tired, but on a weekend afternoon. Ask them what their expectations are for you, or share with them what *your* responsibilites are. We even hung up lists of expectations around the house - for the bathroom, for doing homework, for the dinner table, for keeping the living room and bedrooms clean. They probably have "jobs" and expectations or classroom rules in school, so this won't be anything new.
Work on getting them to put away the previous toy before taking a new one out in the living room.
Some kids truly dont see every part of the mess that bothers you. Once in a while, clean their toys up with them and talk through how "oh let me look around, oops I missed these Legos in the corner, and wait I see some chalk dust that I should vacuum because the floor isn't clean yet even though all the toys are off the floor."
If you *do* have to negotiate, turn it into a positive thing so *they* are in charge: instead of "if you don't clean up right now, you can't watch TV before bed" say "if you clean up and brush your teeth by 8pm, you can watch TV, it's up to you." This way you're not the bad guy.
Read this bucket book to them and explain that having to negotiate with them all the time dips into your bucket. Ask them what fills *their* bucket. I also explained to my son that I have an energy bucket (or a battery analogy would work) and if I use up all my energy on repeating myself to him and arguing with him to do his work, then I don't have energy to play with him/take him to the park/read to him/etc.
Once in a while when you're planning some kind of treat or fun activity for them, try to time it on a day after they do a really good job with all their expected home tasks, and tell them you wanted to take them out/do something with them because you were really happy with how they did X, Y, and Z. Since they were able to do that themselves, you had time and energy to plan this.
posted by dabadoo at 7:45 AM on October 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
The 1,2,3 (or counting to 5) method mentioned above works very well quite often with some practice, and it saves you having to say extra words when your kids already know the consequence (whatever it is).
They're old enough to have a real heart to heart talk with them about needing to clean up and brush their teeth, and any other home expectations and responsibilities. Not in the evening when it all has to happen NOW and you're all tired, but on a weekend afternoon. Ask them what their expectations are for you, or share with them what *your* responsibilites are. We even hung up lists of expectations around the house - for the bathroom, for doing homework, for the dinner table, for keeping the living room and bedrooms clean. They probably have "jobs" and expectations or classroom rules in school, so this won't be anything new.
Work on getting them to put away the previous toy before taking a new one out in the living room.
Some kids truly dont see every part of the mess that bothers you. Once in a while, clean their toys up with them and talk through how "oh let me look around, oops I missed these Legos in the corner, and wait I see some chalk dust that I should vacuum because the floor isn't clean yet even though all the toys are off the floor."
If you *do* have to negotiate, turn it into a positive thing so *they* are in charge: instead of "if you don't clean up right now, you can't watch TV before bed" say "if you clean up and brush your teeth by 8pm, you can watch TV, it's up to you." This way you're not the bad guy.
Read this bucket book to them and explain that having to negotiate with them all the time dips into your bucket. Ask them what fills *their* bucket. I also explained to my son that I have an energy bucket (or a battery analogy would work) and if I use up all my energy on repeating myself to him and arguing with him to do his work, then I don't have energy to play with him/take him to the park/read to him/etc.
Once in a while when you're planning some kind of treat or fun activity for them, try to time it on a day after they do a really good job with all their expected home tasks, and tell them you wanted to take them out/do something with them because you were really happy with how they did X, Y, and Z. Since they were able to do that themselves, you had time and energy to plan this.
posted by dabadoo at 7:45 AM on October 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Best answer: About the bucket book I mentioned above: sometimes all I have to say to my son is "you're dipping into my bucket" and he goes "ok ok!" and starts doing whatever I was asking him to do.
We use a combination of all the techniques I listed above, depending on the actual issue, and it helps. It's still exhausting to have to always come up with the correct technique, but at least it often makes things less heated in the moment because we have rehearsed words and tools we can rely on instead of repeating ourselves over and over (for example: "look at expectation #2 please" or "1,2...." instead of "clean up, how many times do I have to ask you!")
And speaking of repeating... when I do have to repeat myself, I often use 1 or 2 words: "John, Socks" instead of "pick up your socks!"
posted by dabadoo at 7:55 AM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
We use a combination of all the techniques I listed above, depending on the actual issue, and it helps. It's still exhausting to have to always come up with the correct technique, but at least it often makes things less heated in the moment because we have rehearsed words and tools we can rely on instead of repeating ourselves over and over (for example: "look at expectation #2 please" or "1,2...." instead of "clean up, how many times do I have to ask you!")
And speaking of repeating... when I do have to repeat myself, I often use 1 or 2 words: "John, Socks" instead of "pick up your socks!"
posted by dabadoo at 7:55 AM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: If I say no treats, that feels more like a threat/punishment. The kids would most likely just say fine and still refuse. Then when the treats came out the next day and I reminded them, they would promise they would brush their teeth that night,
Ya I see the problem. You’re being way too nice! When they ask for treats on the next day you just say No. No explanation, no reminders. They’re 8/9 they’re fully intelligent and no explanation is needed (you already gave it).
And the next night? If they still refuse? Another No from you. Ad infinity till they get it. (My daughter needed three days of these natural consequences before I could see her clue and adjust her behavior ahead of time.)
Learn to get comfortable saying No full stop. They can handle it!
Maybe it “feels” like a punishment from you because you’re annoyed / angry at them not listening and that’s normal. But don’t let that get in the way of effective parenting.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:20 AM on October 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
Ya I see the problem. You’re being way too nice! When they ask for treats on the next day you just say No. No explanation, no reminders. They’re 8/9 they’re fully intelligent and no explanation is needed (you already gave it).
And the next night? If they still refuse? Another No from you. Ad infinity till they get it. (My daughter needed three days of these natural consequences before I could see her clue and adjust her behavior ahead of time.)
Learn to get comfortable saying No full stop. They can handle it!
Maybe it “feels” like a punishment from you because you’re annoyed / angry at them not listening and that’s normal. But don’t let that get in the way of effective parenting.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:20 AM on October 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I’ll mention one thing I don’t think has been mentioned yet: intensely fun connection time right before an ask. This is a really tough one because it takes energy from us (especially at first). Here’s how it works:
- first it requires planning ahead always to “the next ask” so there’s not a big rush to get the ask in
- next without mentioning the big ask, propose really fun interactive play between you and your kid. Plan on spending ten - twenty minutes being really engaged with playing with them. Right now, we do a lot of “rough house” play (wrestling, wrapping each other in blankets, chasing). At different times we’ve also done extended story telling/acting out play, side by side crafting, baking together, hide and seek, hide an object, etc. it’s important that it’s you playing with them, not just you giving them something to do.
- when there’s about 5 minutes left in the play, give a five minute warning and even set a timer they can see. When the five minutes are up, they are up. Try saying something like “wow that was fun! I’ve got to go [sort socks, whatever]. I’ll be back in a few minutes. When I come back, I expect you to have picked up this room.”
You can’t do this for every ask, there simply isn’t enough time in the day. Pick the battle that most annoys you and try it for that one.
The idea here is that when our kids feel connected to us, they also feel positive about themselves and are able to tap more deeply into their empathy for us. Both things help them accomplish jobs.
posted by CMcG at 8:21 AM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
- first it requires planning ahead always to “the next ask” so there’s not a big rush to get the ask in
- next without mentioning the big ask, propose really fun interactive play between you and your kid. Plan on spending ten - twenty minutes being really engaged with playing with them. Right now, we do a lot of “rough house” play (wrestling, wrapping each other in blankets, chasing). At different times we’ve also done extended story telling/acting out play, side by side crafting, baking together, hide and seek, hide an object, etc. it’s important that it’s you playing with them, not just you giving them something to do.
- when there’s about 5 minutes left in the play, give a five minute warning and even set a timer they can see. When the five minutes are up, they are up. Try saying something like “wow that was fun! I’ve got to go [sort socks, whatever]. I’ll be back in a few minutes. When I come back, I expect you to have picked up this room.”
You can’t do this for every ask, there simply isn’t enough time in the day. Pick the battle that most annoys you and try it for that one.
The idea here is that when our kids feel connected to us, they also feel positive about themselves and are able to tap more deeply into their empathy for us. Both things help them accomplish jobs.
posted by CMcG at 8:21 AM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: (They can handle No and you can handle feeling like a jerk / feeling disliked for a minute. You’re all resilient.)
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:21 AM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:21 AM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh also, progress over perfect. If you come back and they’ve put a few things away, that’s good. Say something like “wow! What a great start. I sure do appreciate it when you help out around the house. What support do you need from me to get the rest of this done? I’ll have to go back to [sorting socks] in a moment, but right now I have a moment to do something for you.” As long as it’s reasonable/doable in a few moments, do it.
posted by CMcG at 8:23 AM on October 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by CMcG at 8:23 AM on October 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Apparently I’ve got a lot to say on this dynamic, because I’ve had it. The kids are wearing you down because they can. You haven’t demonstrated that your word is final… your word is always No that can be pushed into a Yes.
Give yourself a seat at the table. You deserve to feel sane and OK in your own house and that means clean areas. If you let them continue on this path then it’s you who will feel all the bad feelings and meanwhile they feel fine. That’s not fair to you and it’s not a family, where we care about the experience of the other members and adjust our behavior to an appropriate degree. You’re not asking for something out of the ordinary and you deserve what you want. So don’t make your needs less than anyone else’s in the family. Maybe that helps you move from thinking about this as punishment, and more as healthy dynamics, demonstrating you setting your boundaries, knowing your feelings and needs are valid. That’s good for kids to witness!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:45 AM on October 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Give yourself a seat at the table. You deserve to feel sane and OK in your own house and that means clean areas. If you let them continue on this path then it’s you who will feel all the bad feelings and meanwhile they feel fine. That’s not fair to you and it’s not a family, where we care about the experience of the other members and adjust our behavior to an appropriate degree. You’re not asking for something out of the ordinary and you deserve what you want. So don’t make your needs less than anyone else’s in the family. Maybe that helps you move from thinking about this as punishment, and more as healthy dynamics, demonstrating you setting your boundaries, knowing your feelings and needs are valid. That’s good for kids to witness!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:45 AM on October 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
One little thing you said: "Take the toothbrushing as well. It's night - ask them to brush their teeth. Huge fight ensues."
There's no need for you to "ask" them to brush their teeth. You can remind them "It's 8pm; it's time to brush your teeth." Don't give them a chance to say no. This just is how it is. If they're watching a show or youtube, it goes off at 8pm until teeth are brushed; toys are taken away. If they sit there stubbornly, then no sweets until they brush their teeth. You're teaching them how to live in this world, not asking them for favors.
A blog post that resonates with me is "You don't have to like it; you just have to do it." This can be in reference to your kids doing their chores, or even to yourself, learning to practice a bit of tough love.
posted by hydra77 at 8:50 AM on October 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
There's no need for you to "ask" them to brush their teeth. You can remind them "It's 8pm; it's time to brush your teeth." Don't give them a chance to say no. This just is how it is. If they're watching a show or youtube, it goes off at 8pm until teeth are brushed; toys are taken away. If they sit there stubbornly, then no sweets until they brush their teeth. You're teaching them how to live in this world, not asking them for favors.
A blog post that resonates with me is "You don't have to like it; you just have to do it." This can be in reference to your kids doing their chores, or even to yourself, learning to practice a bit of tough love.
posted by hydra77 at 8:50 AM on October 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
My kid is younger (almost 4) but I agree with previous commenters, it seems like your boundaries aren't strong enough. We follow Ellyn Satter pretty closely and there are times when the kid goes to bed without eating anything - if she doesn't like what's on the table, she doesn't have to eat it, but I'm not making something special. There is usually bread or some other nice kid option, but if she still doesn't want that, I don't care - eat or don't eat, she is not going to starve from skipping one meal. She usually makes it up at breakfast and she's still on her growth curve so I don't stress when this happens. But it goes a long way towards reinforcing parental authority.
Also, toys that don't get cleaned up by a kid get cleaned up by Mama, right into a bin that goes "away." No more toys. Obviously I bring them back eventually, but I consider loose Lego a safety hazard and if she won't clean them up, I see that as an indication that she isn't responsible enough to have them.
I do agree that with something like toothbrushing, it just has to get done, and since my kid is still small I basically do it for her if she won't help participate. But I think standing over your kid coaching them through every step would work for most older kids - it's condescending, but if you can't act responsibly, perhaps you need help.
The key here is not to be punitive. You are not helping as a punishment. Be neutral, frame it as needing extra support with a learning experience. But also, some things are not negotiable.
posted by epanalepsis at 8:51 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, toys that don't get cleaned up by a kid get cleaned up by Mama, right into a bin that goes "away." No more toys. Obviously I bring them back eventually, but I consider loose Lego a safety hazard and if she won't clean them up, I see that as an indication that she isn't responsible enough to have them.
I do agree that with something like toothbrushing, it just has to get done, and since my kid is still small I basically do it for her if she won't help participate. But I think standing over your kid coaching them through every step would work for most older kids - it's condescending, but if you can't act responsibly, perhaps you need help.
The key here is not to be punitive. You are not helping as a punishment. Be neutral, frame it as needing extra support with a learning experience. But also, some things are not negotiable.
posted by epanalepsis at 8:51 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
But it goes a long way towards reinforcing parental authority.
I just wanted to note here around food in particular that I see it almost as reinforcing parental expertise as well as forming a relationship. I didn’t want to be the “short order cook” of the family. I didn’t want to be a dictator either. I did meal planning and each kid got to choose (from a range of healthy and doable options) one meal a week. But when it came to the actual meal, the relationship I wanted was respectful. I respect that they get to choose what they eat and tried to make sure they had things that should appeal, with some stretch things, and meals others -including me - enjoy.. They need to respect (in our family! Families are different!) that we serve one unified dinner and even if you don’t like it, you can’t sit there saying eww gross.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:10 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I just wanted to note here around food in particular that I see it almost as reinforcing parental expertise as well as forming a relationship. I didn’t want to be the “short order cook” of the family. I didn’t want to be a dictator either. I did meal planning and each kid got to choose (from a range of healthy and doable options) one meal a week. But when it came to the actual meal, the relationship I wanted was respectful. I respect that they get to choose what they eat and tried to make sure they had things that should appeal, with some stretch things, and meals others -including me - enjoy.. They need to respect (in our family! Families are different!) that we serve one unified dinner and even if you don’t like it, you can’t sit there saying eww gross.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:10 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Agree with a lot of the advice here. On toothbrushing, I have found micromanaging very effective to get it done. I also do it with them - show, don't tell - I literally brush my teeth at the same time as them, bringing my toothbrush into their bathroom so we can do it together. I have found that to be a very positive and effective way of getting them to "buy in" to the process. I also explain the consequences clearly - cavities are hard for a kid to understand, but bad breath isn't, point out (in a silly way) the stinky breath, food on teeth etc. I also remind them that it's *their* teeth they are taking care of, and the consequences will be quite literally in their mouth, not mine. Sometimes (not always) that helps to show that this is something we remind them of for their own sake, not the adult's.
I also have (painstakingly) learned that our 2 kids (also anxiety prone, turning 8 & 10) need the ability and freedom to react / have an emotional response for themselves before doing the boring thing. Their response is not an invitation to negotiate, but an expression of feeling. Our youngest sometimes just has to yell "no" before walking over and doing the thing. While our oldest needs the reminders because of likely adhd. But I've had to train *myself* not to react to their reactions - just let them pass and continue guiding them to the chore.
posted by icy_latte at 9:19 AM on October 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I also have (painstakingly) learned that our 2 kids (also anxiety prone, turning 8 & 10) need the ability and freedom to react / have an emotional response for themselves before doing the boring thing. Their response is not an invitation to negotiate, but an expression of feeling. Our youngest sometimes just has to yell "no" before walking over and doing the thing. While our oldest needs the reminders because of likely adhd. But I've had to train *myself* not to react to their reactions - just let them pass and continue guiding them to the chore.
posted by icy_latte at 9:19 AM on October 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
One trick I've found that works with a lot of kids (not all. There is no works for all!) to stop the whining "Whyyyyy" is to ask them to repeat back the reason to me. I ask with a kind patient tone (I am often shocked how patient I can sound when inside I am on fire), give them time to answer, and don't allow them to change topics. You can't be angry or short here as that makes them understandably defensive. You want to be firm, but conversational. They'll often ignore the first few times and keep repeating themselves, but once they are able to repeat the reason it usually ends it. It's almost as though if the reason comes from them instead of at them it becomes more real. If they revert back to WHYYY you repeat and ask them to give you the reason out loud again.
I've also found a lot of kids will genuinely not know the reason, which will feel infuriating because you've told them ONE MILLION TIMES. It's like water off a ducks back, they just don't care to retain it. Once they've said it themselves out loud it's more likely to stick.
(When you've had the exact same conversation 4 times in one week, and each time they appear to genuinly have no idea what the reason is... that's why the bottle of cooking sherry is always empty.)
posted by Dynex at 9:48 AM on October 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
I've also found a lot of kids will genuinely not know the reason, which will feel infuriating because you've told them ONE MILLION TIMES. It's like water off a ducks back, they just don't care to retain it. Once they've said it themselves out loud it's more likely to stick.
(When you've had the exact same conversation 4 times in one week, and each time they appear to genuinly have no idea what the reason is... that's why the bottle of cooking sherry is always empty.)
posted by Dynex at 9:48 AM on October 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
You've taught them that negotiating and being persistent at not complying is successful. It takes effort to teach a new deal.
Brushing teeth. If you brush your teeth during this commercial, you can watch the end of the show. Turn off screens. If anyone doesn't brush teeth, screens stay off. Go brush your teeth with them. Not brushing teeth is not an option, it's just too important. Maybe at 1st as you implement changes, but you should act horrified at tooth-brushing/ face-washing/ showering refusal. Many kids have sensory issues that require help, but getting clean is about health.
Picking up stuff. Dinner is ready. We're going to pick up stuff now. 7, your shoes are in the living room, 9, backpack, etc. If they leave toys/ tablets/ etc., out - remind, then remove the toy for a week or more. Most kids have gobs of toys, so you may need to keep removing toys for a while. You and other parent can pick up the scarf or shoes you left in the hall or whatever. I set aside time for room-cleaning with my kid, giving them more to do as they got older. We had a bunch of buckets (walmart always has cheap decorated buckets) for action figures, matchbox cars, markers, whatever. A big hammock or basket for stuffed animals. Hooks for jackets. Fussy organization can be a barrier.
At 7 and 9, kids can load the dishwasher, sweep the kitchen, strip sheets for laundry, etc. Declare a time when cleaning happens, no screens, phone, friends until basic tasks are completed. We all live in a home, we all take care of the home. Do tasks with them, play music, at earlier ages, kids don't have the habit yet.
Rewards chart. They seem so goofy but rewards work. Clean room - star on their calendar. 4 stars - sticker. 4 stickers - matchbox car, new marker, or other tangible reward. This is how new toys and art supplies enter the house. Negotiate rewards if they have a specific goal, like a bigger toy/ game.
If you don't like the meal prepared/ aren't hungry right now, you can make toast, have an apple or similar later. If you liked sloppy joes last week and hate them this week, that's annoying, but I never forced my kid to do more than taste stuff and he eats a variety of healthy food, loves vegetables, tries everything.
They have taught you that their persistent refusal is stronger than your persistence. Be persistent and unemotional. Reward the behavior you want more of. praise is a powerful motivator. keep saying to yourself What Gets Rewarded Gets Repeated. 7, good job putting away the puzzles. 9, thanks for rinsing the sink.
Everything you do is teaching. You are teaching them to be fun to live with, responsible, reasonable, fair, etc. You teach by example, rewards, explaining, demonstrating, consequences. Sympathize. Yeah, washing dishes is boring, but it has to get done. Singing along to Beyonce helps! And then we can read books/ watch a movie. Encourage, praise, thank. Thanks for bringing your dishes to the sink. I like the way you arranged the stuffed animals.
posted by theora55 at 10:39 AM on October 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Brushing teeth. If you brush your teeth during this commercial, you can watch the end of the show. Turn off screens. If anyone doesn't brush teeth, screens stay off. Go brush your teeth with them. Not brushing teeth is not an option, it's just too important. Maybe at 1st as you implement changes, but you should act horrified at tooth-brushing/ face-washing/ showering refusal. Many kids have sensory issues that require help, but getting clean is about health.
Picking up stuff. Dinner is ready. We're going to pick up stuff now. 7, your shoes are in the living room, 9, backpack, etc. If they leave toys/ tablets/ etc., out - remind, then remove the toy for a week or more. Most kids have gobs of toys, so you may need to keep removing toys for a while. You and other parent can pick up the scarf or shoes you left in the hall or whatever. I set aside time for room-cleaning with my kid, giving them more to do as they got older. We had a bunch of buckets (walmart always has cheap decorated buckets) for action figures, matchbox cars, markers, whatever. A big hammock or basket for stuffed animals. Hooks for jackets. Fussy organization can be a barrier.
At 7 and 9, kids can load the dishwasher, sweep the kitchen, strip sheets for laundry, etc. Declare a time when cleaning happens, no screens, phone, friends until basic tasks are completed. We all live in a home, we all take care of the home. Do tasks with them, play music, at earlier ages, kids don't have the habit yet.
Rewards chart. They seem so goofy but rewards work. Clean room - star on their calendar. 4 stars - sticker. 4 stickers - matchbox car, new marker, or other tangible reward. This is how new toys and art supplies enter the house. Negotiate rewards if they have a specific goal, like a bigger toy/ game.
If you don't like the meal prepared/ aren't hungry right now, you can make toast, have an apple or similar later. If you liked sloppy joes last week and hate them this week, that's annoying, but I never forced my kid to do more than taste stuff and he eats a variety of healthy food, loves vegetables, tries everything.
They have taught you that their persistent refusal is stronger than your persistence. Be persistent and unemotional. Reward the behavior you want more of. praise is a powerful motivator. keep saying to yourself What Gets Rewarded Gets Repeated. 7, good job putting away the puzzles. 9, thanks for rinsing the sink.
Everything you do is teaching. You are teaching them to be fun to live with, responsible, reasonable, fair, etc. You teach by example, rewards, explaining, demonstrating, consequences. Sympathize. Yeah, washing dishes is boring, but it has to get done. Singing along to Beyonce helps! And then we can read books/ watch a movie. Encourage, praise, thank. Thanks for bringing your dishes to the sink. I like the way you arranged the stuffed animals.
posted by theora55 at 10:39 AM on October 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
You are teaching them to be fun to live with, responsible, reasonable, fair, etc.
This. Being firm with them now is what you have to do in order to make them a pleasure to be around, and successfully teaching them to be pleasant to have around is one of the biggest things you can do for them as a parent.
posted by LizardBreath at 11:10 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
This. Being firm with them now is what you have to do in order to make them a pleasure to be around, and successfully teaching them to be pleasant to have around is one of the biggest things you can do for them as a parent.
posted by LizardBreath at 11:10 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Cleaning – my mom very successfully got me to scrub the kitchen floor at age five by pretending she was the Wicked Witch and I was a helpless princess, forced to do her bidding! I got a special cone hat and our neighbor's old prom dress. The power of make believe: intrinsically rewarding for most kids.
posted by lloquat at 1:26 PM on October 13, 2023
posted by lloquat at 1:26 PM on October 13, 2023
To get them to brush their teeth, you could always try not letting them go to bed until the teeth are done. They have to stay in the bathroom until they get the chore done. Stand in the bathroom doorway. They are young enough that they do need supervision to make sure they stay on task, so it's not unreasonable for you to escort them to the bathroom and stand there, not watching them or talking to them, but glancing over to make sure they do it.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:19 PM on October 13, 2023
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:19 PM on October 13, 2023
The bridge between natural consequences and punishment is called logical consequences. In cases where the natural consequences are too diffuse (you'll cavities later) too dangerous (you'll get hit by a car) or impact other people more than the child (clean up the mess) then you need something that serves as a more immediate consequence.
It take some thought. What you want is to find a consequence that is
- logically related (don't brush teeth, no candy tomorrow) and not generic (take away electronics as the consequence for everything.
- respectful (in both the manner of your tone and also not embarrassing)
- reasonably sized for both the age and the offense (no sugar tomorrow not no sugar for a week)
- since it is not punishment, it doesn't need to make them miserable but just enough to guide them towards making good choices.
My second big point is that when you are ready to try to do better, expect things to get worse first. In psychology this is called an extinction burst - right now, whining and ignoring and complaining all work in getting to you to back down. So the first time you say "no and I mean it" they won't believe it and will just try hard. You have to very very firm - if you do give in you just taught them to be more persistent.
Best book for the kind of parenting you want is How to Talk so Kids Will Listen by Faber and Mizlich. Second book that would be helpful for learning how to hold your position is Magic 1-2-3. (Not my favorite overall but very helpful in making this transition.)
posted by metahawk at 7:58 PM on October 14, 2023
It take some thought. What you want is to find a consequence that is
- logically related (don't brush teeth, no candy tomorrow) and not generic (take away electronics as the consequence for everything.
- respectful (in both the manner of your tone and also not embarrassing)
- reasonably sized for both the age and the offense (no sugar tomorrow not no sugar for a week)
- since it is not punishment, it doesn't need to make them miserable but just enough to guide them towards making good choices.
My second big point is that when you are ready to try to do better, expect things to get worse first. In psychology this is called an extinction burst - right now, whining and ignoring and complaining all work in getting to you to back down. So the first time you say "no and I mean it" they won't believe it and will just try hard. You have to very very firm - if you do give in you just taught them to be more persistent.
Best book for the kind of parenting you want is How to Talk so Kids Will Listen by Faber and Mizlich. Second book that would be helpful for learning how to hold your position is Magic 1-2-3. (Not my favorite overall but very helpful in making this transition.)
posted by metahawk at 7:58 PM on October 14, 2023
These are all great suggestions.
My addition to this list is: kids - especially at the age yours are - THRIVE on predictability. So if you set aside a time to clean up, then put it on the fridge or the wall calendar, and remind them about 30 min prior, and give them a 5 minute heads up as well, like, "Get your aprons and gloves on in five minutes, it's time for cleaning."
When I "surprise" them, like expect them to yank themselves out of whatever fun thing they are doing at a moment's notice just because I already told them yesterday that this was the plan, they get pretty cranky. Well, they used to! Now they're teenagers and they do fine remembering to check the schedule on their own.
posted by MiraK at 2:54 PM on October 18, 2023
My addition to this list is: kids - especially at the age yours are - THRIVE on predictability. So if you set aside a time to clean up, then put it on the fridge or the wall calendar, and remind them about 30 min prior, and give them a 5 minute heads up as well, like, "Get your aprons and gloves on in five minutes, it's time for cleaning."
When I "surprise" them, like expect them to yank themselves out of whatever fun thing they are doing at a moment's notice just because I already told them yesterday that this was the plan, they get pretty cranky. Well, they used to! Now they're teenagers and they do fine remembering to check the schedule on their own.
posted by MiraK at 2:54 PM on October 18, 2023
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
You have to make the kids feel the natural consequences. Not a threat or punishment! But the natural consequence of doing or not doing what is required.
No discussion. No anger. Just simple natural consequences.
Don’t brush your teeth? Well you can’t have treats if you don’t brush those sugar bugs out. It causes cavities. End of story.
Don’t clean your mess? Sorry we don’t watch tv till our messes are cleaned (this is our hard family rule and after years of enforcement the just do it now).
Don’t eat your food? You get it tomorrow. (Yes I did this.)
(And don’t clean the mess for them! You’re compensating for them and that’s unhealthy. Leave their dirty dishes at the table and let them eat on dirty plates from the day before. Unless it was meat they won’t die. Don’t do their laundry if it’s not in the baskets. Can’t find your toy? That’s just so bad! If only you put it back where it belonged. You’d know where to find it. That kind of thing. And if they still don’t clean then you will do a Final Clean because clearly they have too much toys/books/whatever and it goes to good will.)
It sounds like, with all the discussion, you’re trying to get their buy-in, or to get them to want to do the thing you’ve asked. No. You’re not running a democracy here sorry. And who ever “wants” to clean anyways come on. No one does but it’s necessary. Here are the rules here is what I expect here’s the natural consequences and hold firm.
It may a while of you consistently enforcing but it will change. Don’t give up or relinquish your parental stance at this stage or teenage years will be worse.
So just ask yourself: what is the natural consequence of them not doing what they were asked and then make sure they feel the consequence.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:41 PM on October 12, 2023 [41 favorites]