Perplexed at my sister's lack of understanding re: the lake incident.
August 31, 2023 5:52 PM Subscribe
I finally had a Zoom session with my sister to share the news of me discontinuing chemo, and to explain why I reacted the way I did during the lake incident. Her reaction to the explanation re: lake was... not great.
I'm still processing the Zoom session. First, to be fair, my sister was wonderfully supportive, understanding, and willing to do everything she could to support me re: discontinuing chemo. She agreed to keep it between us until I was ready to break the news to my mom.
However, when I explained my response re: the high-stakes Yahtzee incident — having a trauma response/lashing out, feeling pressured into going into the water, it being dark/cold, lights flashing, having bad balance, trauma flashbacks to being bullied in middle school, my mom being inconsistent and goading me into it, recovering from surgery/sensitive to cold and shivering badly, etc., her counterresponses were:
-We were having fun until you had your moment/meltdown
-Why did you play in the first place if you knew you'd have to jump in the lake water?
-Not fair of you to say that Mom was goading you (not fair to blame Mom)
-You knew the consequences of losing was to jump in the lake water
I tried to explain the concept of consent — and that for example, my University often have research studies/surveys in which you have every right to withdraw anytime before/during/after. No go, she didn't seem to understand or really get it.
I also explained that I wasn't mad at her in the first place, I was mainly mad at my mom, not at her. (She was one of the instigators; it was basically girls vs. boys, and the girls won, but I really believe she didn't understand the heaviness of the situation.) I concluded that the reason I wanted to share was to get closure, then we moved on, because we were basically at a standstill.
It left a really bad taste in my mouth, though—I thought I had made it perfectly clear, and I was confident with my position, but how she responded made me feel like the bad guy again and brought back guilt. It was extremely perplexing because when I shared my chemo decision, she understood and acknowledged the mental health toll.
How would you recommend I navigate this situation? It's just hard because I want so badly to be understood and validated.
I'm still processing the Zoom session. First, to be fair, my sister was wonderfully supportive, understanding, and willing to do everything she could to support me re: discontinuing chemo. She agreed to keep it between us until I was ready to break the news to my mom.
However, when I explained my response re: the high-stakes Yahtzee incident — having a trauma response/lashing out, feeling pressured into going into the water, it being dark/cold, lights flashing, having bad balance, trauma flashbacks to being bullied in middle school, my mom being inconsistent and goading me into it, recovering from surgery/sensitive to cold and shivering badly, etc., her counterresponses were:
-We were having fun until you had your moment/meltdown
-Why did you play in the first place if you knew you'd have to jump in the lake water?
-Not fair of you to say that Mom was goading you (not fair to blame Mom)
-You knew the consequences of losing was to jump in the lake water
I tried to explain the concept of consent — and that for example, my University often have research studies/surveys in which you have every right to withdraw anytime before/during/after. No go, she didn't seem to understand or really get it.
I also explained that I wasn't mad at her in the first place, I was mainly mad at my mom, not at her. (She was one of the instigators; it was basically girls vs. boys, and the girls won, but I really believe she didn't understand the heaviness of the situation.) I concluded that the reason I wanted to share was to get closure, then we moved on, because we were basically at a standstill.
It left a really bad taste in my mouth, though—I thought I had made it perfectly clear, and I was confident with my position, but how she responded made me feel like the bad guy again and brought back guilt. It was extremely perplexing because when I shared my chemo decision, she understood and acknowledged the mental health toll.
How would you recommend I navigate this situation? It's just hard because I want so badly to be understood and validated.
Best answer: If this were me, I would not pursue additional processing with family members. From the outside looking in, it seems like there are longstanding patterns and scripts being played out here, both with your excessive guilt (please read that sympathetically) and your sister's unwillingness to entertain any take on the scenario that is not just down to you overreacting and not being a good sport. Those aren't likely to change in the context of this one incident. I don't think you're going to get the understanding from your sister that you're seeking, or that continuing to try will serve the relationship the two of you have at this point, but if you're able to look at "I shared my experience honestly" as a form of closure, I'd say you accomplished that. If you go back and spend some time rereading the responses to your original post about the incident, there is a whole lot of understanding and validation to be had there, from people who are arguably in a position to view the situation more objectively.
posted by wormtales at 6:18 PM on August 31, 2023 [41 favorites]
posted by wormtales at 6:18 PM on August 31, 2023 [41 favorites]
Best answer: It sounds like you did explain things clearly, people on Metafilter certain were able to understand what was happened to you and support your right to back out of a scary, possibly dangerous experience. I don't think more explaining will help your sister see things your way.
My thought is that people can be very mixed assortments of strengths and weaknesses. Your sister was great when you shared about the chemo decision. She was able to show up and be supportive and that is fantastic. She wasn't very good when you tried to explain your experience with the lake incident. My guess is that her role in your family's dynamics either made her feel defensive on her own account (she heard what you said as blame even though you said you didn't blame her) or defensive on Mom's account. In any case, not able to give you empathy for a difficult experience.
So, now you know. She is great for some problems and can't counted on to be supportive for others.
The challenge for you is if you can accept her imperfect support and let go of needing her to see your side of the lake incident. Not easy but I am hoping that even if with her imperfect support she will be able to still be someone in your life that cares about you as best as she is able.
posted by metahawk at 6:28 PM on August 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
My thought is that people can be very mixed assortments of strengths and weaknesses. Your sister was great when you shared about the chemo decision. She was able to show up and be supportive and that is fantastic. She wasn't very good when you tried to explain your experience with the lake incident. My guess is that her role in your family's dynamics either made her feel defensive on her own account (she heard what you said as blame even though you said you didn't blame her) or defensive on Mom's account. In any case, not able to give you empathy for a difficult experience.
So, now you know. She is great for some problems and can't counted on to be supportive for others.
The challenge for you is if you can accept her imperfect support and let go of needing her to see your side of the lake incident. Not easy but I am hoping that even if with her imperfect support she will be able to still be someone in your life that cares about you as best as she is able.
posted by metahawk at 6:28 PM on August 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
Best answer: It seems like there's an emotional motivation for her not to get it. Maybe she's attached to feeling like your family plays fun games, or she feels protective of herself and/or your mom. Or maybe she's rerouting some degree of chemo/cancer angst into this other area?
I wouldn't probably bring it back up with her again. If I still had strong feelings about it I might write them in a letter and then burn it. And I wouldn't play competitive games with my family anymore. "No thanks, I think I'll go for a walk this evening instead."
I'm sorry your sister wasn't able to hear you about this <3
posted by hungrytiger at 6:37 PM on August 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
I wouldn't probably bring it back up with her again. If I still had strong feelings about it I might write them in a letter and then burn it. And I wouldn't play competitive games with my family anymore. "No thanks, I think I'll go for a walk this evening instead."
I'm sorry your sister wasn't able to hear you about this <3
posted by hungrytiger at 6:37 PM on August 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Sent you a MeMail.
posted by honeybee413 at 7:10 PM on August 31, 2023
posted by honeybee413 at 7:10 PM on August 31, 2023
Response by poster: I just feel so disheartened because I was vulnerable with her; ie, sharing that I am getting therapy, that it was a trigger, explaining clearly WHY it was a trigger, associating it with being bullied, and emphasizing that it wasn't her—I just wanted to explain it to clear the air. And, yet, she STILL didn't get it. She said basically that I am an adult and I should have not played the game in the first place.
I was really hoping that if I would explain myself in a logical, clear way, that she would understand and have an "aha" moment and be supportive and understanding. Maybe not apologetic, because she didn't do anything wrong intentionally, but be understanding. Instead, I felt like the table was turned against me. Sometimes I don't do a good job explaining myself, and crumble easily, but this time I really felt I made many good points, including the concept of consent and using my University as an example.
I know I can't control her reaction, but it's just so saddening. If the shoes were reversed, I would be horrified, mortified, and deeply apologetic. I would be ashamed that something I (even inadvertently) did brought back wounds from childhood bullying. I would make damn sure that you would be comfortable and feel safe.
When I said I wanted so badly to be understood and validated, I meant by my family. Over the years, I've tried to explain my perspective, my version of events, and I was never really understood. I was basically almost always blamed for everything, my feelings were often invalidated, and I never felt truly comfortable with myself or had a foundation of self-love/confidence. And that is because my family never taught me HOW to love myself, and never said that what I am, is enough.
It's just so sad, I'm honestly just done with feeling this way. I don't know what else to do.
posted by dubious_dude at 7:11 PM on August 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was really hoping that if I would explain myself in a logical, clear way, that she would understand and have an "aha" moment and be supportive and understanding. Maybe not apologetic, because she didn't do anything wrong intentionally, but be understanding. Instead, I felt like the table was turned against me. Sometimes I don't do a good job explaining myself, and crumble easily, but this time I really felt I made many good points, including the concept of consent and using my University as an example.
I know I can't control her reaction, but it's just so saddening. If the shoes were reversed, I would be horrified, mortified, and deeply apologetic. I would be ashamed that something I (even inadvertently) did brought back wounds from childhood bullying. I would make damn sure that you would be comfortable and feel safe.
When I said I wanted so badly to be understood and validated, I meant by my family. Over the years, I've tried to explain my perspective, my version of events, and I was never really understood. I was basically almost always blamed for everything, my feelings were often invalidated, and I never felt truly comfortable with myself or had a foundation of self-love/confidence. And that is because my family never taught me HOW to love myself, and never said that what I am, is enough.
It's just so sad, I'm honestly just done with feeling this way. I don't know what else to do.
posted by dubious_dude at 7:11 PM on August 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: We have to accept the fact that some family members can't support us the way that we wish. It wasn't about you not explaining clearly. It's about your sister not willing to give you the satisfaction of understanding. I don't know if it's intentional or not, but it's most likely that she doesn't know how to break out of these toxic family dynamics and be a friend to you. Because that's what you're asking from your sister, to be like a friend. Family are notorious for irking us. That's why we grow up and make friends and find others who do support us.
And it has nothing to do with you not deserving validation. Because you do. We have to grieve the fact that some family or people can't affirm us the way that we need them to. And we have to find others who will. Not to mention, give yourself empathy. You didn't deserve to be treated that way during the prank at the lake.
I am saying "we and us" because I myself have had to stop looking for outside validation from my family... they support me in their own ways but not in ways I also need. This happens in most families.
You have a lot of people on your side here. I hope you remember that.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 7:27 PM on August 31, 2023 [16 favorites]
And it has nothing to do with you not deserving validation. Because you do. We have to grieve the fact that some family or people can't affirm us the way that we need them to. And we have to find others who will. Not to mention, give yourself empathy. You didn't deserve to be treated that way during the prank at the lake.
I am saying "we and us" because I myself have had to stop looking for outside validation from my family... they support me in their own ways but not in ways I also need. This happens in most families.
You have a lot of people on your side here. I hope you remember that.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 7:27 PM on August 31, 2023 [16 favorites]
Best answer: I would be ashamed that something I (even inadvertently) did brought back wounds from childhood bullying. I would make damn sure that you would be comfortable and feel safe.
Very few people willingly feel shame. Instead, they get defensive and try to cast the blame in any direction that doesn't make them responsible for the shameful thing.
It's not terribly mature but it is terribly common.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:28 PM on August 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
Very few people willingly feel shame. Instead, they get defensive and try to cast the blame in any direction that doesn't make them responsible for the shameful thing.
It's not terribly mature but it is terribly common.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:28 PM on August 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
Best answer: I'm sorry you feel like your needs aren't met in this instance; that must be really hard! Gently, though... if what you need is love, compassion, feeling like you're "enough," are you quite sure that those are what you asked her for, in this case?
Although you may not have intended it to come out like that, your description of the lake situation in this and the previous question really centers your resentment over the ways you feel your mother (and to a lesser extent your other relatives) wronged you. I think that's totally understandable as a defensive reaction to your own initial embarrassment. However, is it possible that framing it that way may have given your sister the impression that you were asking her to prove her love by blaming your mother for the situation? Without getting into the various arguments on both sides, or getting into the possible ways the incident would look different if told from your mom's point of view, I can at least see where she would feel defensive on your mom's behalf at that point, and it does sound as though that defensiveness immediately derailed the conversation away from your needs and toward (unhelpfully, as you point out) adjudicating the objective right and wrong of things.
If you were to go back to your sister and say, "You know, I was going through a tough time that night, and you don't need to agree with my take, but I really need to know if you still respect me and love me and value me as a brother even though I did back out of High Stakes Scrabble"... what do you think she would say?
posted by Bardolph at 7:42 PM on August 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Although you may not have intended it to come out like that, your description of the lake situation in this and the previous question really centers your resentment over the ways you feel your mother (and to a lesser extent your other relatives) wronged you. I think that's totally understandable as a defensive reaction to your own initial embarrassment. However, is it possible that framing it that way may have given your sister the impression that you were asking her to prove her love by blaming your mother for the situation? Without getting into the various arguments on both sides, or getting into the possible ways the incident would look different if told from your mom's point of view, I can at least see where she would feel defensive on your mom's behalf at that point, and it does sound as though that defensiveness immediately derailed the conversation away from your needs and toward (unhelpfully, as you point out) adjudicating the objective right and wrong of things.
If you were to go back to your sister and say, "You know, I was going through a tough time that night, and you don't need to agree with my take, but I really need to know if you still respect me and love me and value me as a brother even though I did back out of High Stakes Scrabble"... what do you think she would say?
posted by Bardolph at 7:42 PM on August 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
You have a tendency to re-litigate and ruminate on situations.
Incident with William.
Getting yelled at by your mother.
This behavior is not working for you. Are you still going to therapy?
You also have a tendency to say you are not controlling the person or trying to control the person in your recent questions. Except if you actually weren't trying to control the situation, you wouldn't be here asking the same type of questions.
posted by saturdaymornings at 7:52 PM on August 31, 2023 [37 favorites]
Incident with William.
Getting yelled at by your mother.
This behavior is not working for you. Are you still going to therapy?
You also have a tendency to say you are not controlling the person or trying to control the person in your recent questions. Except if you actually weren't trying to control the situation, you wouldn't be here asking the same type of questions.
posted by saturdaymornings at 7:52 PM on August 31, 2023 [37 favorites]
Honestly, if I were discontinuing chemo, the last thing I would want to spend my time on is other people's reactions.
You've told her, and it's really up to her to do the rest.
posted by yellowcandy at 7:52 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
You've told her, and it's really up to her to do the rest.
posted by yellowcandy at 7:52 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Family is a system. You're not just asking her to see your side; you're asking her (because she's part of a system) to change her own understanding of the system that she's in. It's likely that she's deeply invested in her own understanding of that system, in the same way that you're deeply invested in your understanding of that system. Her own understanding is likely directly connected to her sense of identity, because that's true for most of us with our family systems.
You didn't do anything wrong, but you're interpreting her response as if she has no relationship with anyone in the family other than you. It's really not at all analogous to a discussion about your chemo, which is just about you and not about family roles. It's normal that someone would react differently to those two topics in this situation.
posted by lapis at 8:41 PM on August 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
You didn't do anything wrong, but you're interpreting her response as if she has no relationship with anyone in the family other than you. It's really not at all analogous to a discussion about your chemo, which is just about you and not about family roles. It's normal that someone would react differently to those two topics in this situation.
posted by lapis at 8:41 PM on August 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
Also, with siblings, most of the time whatever harm we've dealt with from parents, they've dealt with similar. They may have developed totally different ways of coping or of interpreting it, and become deeply invested in those methods or interpretations. If your family never taught you how to love yourself, they likely never did the same for her either. Even if it appears otherwise.
posted by lapis at 8:48 PM on August 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by lapis at 8:48 PM on August 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Best answer: There's this fantasy I have where I explain someone's error to them and they get it and thank me for explaining this thing to them. And it's a happy ending! Yay!
But, this almost never happens. Especially with family members, oddly enough.
But, optimist that I am, I re-explain the thing to them. And then re-re-explain. And those doesn't work either because, rather than clarifying anything, I'm now THAT GUY who keeps doubling down and can't let things go, and have become a buzz kill because I'm convinced that if only people would listen, they'd see things my way.
Long story short, I've come to realize that I can't control anyone else's reactions.
I think your sister is your teacher here, and you have the opportunity to learn that you can still love and treat someone kindly even if they don't see the thing you're trying to show them.
My practice is to try to move away from intense arguments about small things. Because the world is a big place and we have limited time here.
posted by jasper411 at 9:08 PM on August 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
But, this almost never happens. Especially with family members, oddly enough.
But, optimist that I am, I re-explain the thing to them. And then re-re-explain. And those doesn't work either because, rather than clarifying anything, I'm now THAT GUY who keeps doubling down and can't let things go, and have become a buzz kill because I'm convinced that if only people would listen, they'd see things my way.
Long story short, I've come to realize that I can't control anyone else's reactions.
I think your sister is your teacher here, and you have the opportunity to learn that you can still love and treat someone kindly even if they don't see the thing you're trying to show them.
My practice is to try to move away from intense arguments about small things. Because the world is a big place and we have limited time here.
posted by jasper411 at 9:08 PM on August 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
I tried to re-edit my comment above but the edit window closed.
I just want to add that I understand this is not a small thing for you, and it was inept for me to use that word.
I sincerely wish you and your family the best in this difficult situation.
posted by jasper411 at 9:20 PM on August 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I just want to add that I understand this is not a small thing for you, and it was inept for me to use that word.
I sincerely wish you and your family the best in this difficult situation.
posted by jasper411 at 9:20 PM on August 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I want so badly to be understood and validated.
Almost everybody wants that. Trick is learning to look for it where it exists instead of insisting that it must exist where it doesn't.
I play drums for fun. Here's a drummer joke I've been told about 10000 times:
posted by flabdablet at 9:41 PM on August 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
Almost everybody wants that. Trick is learning to look for it where it exists instead of insisting that it must exist where it doesn't.
I play drums for fun. Here's a drummer joke I've been told about 10000 times:
So this guy goes into a store walks up to the counter and says "I'd like a Marshall HiWatt 360 watt ampflicator and a fender Geetar with the fried rose tremolo-It sucks that your family is a travel agency instead of a music store, but that does appear to be the situation.
The guy stops him right there and says "You're a drummer, aren't you?"
"Uh, yeah. How did you know?"
"This is a travel agency."
posted by flabdablet at 9:41 PM on August 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
Best answer: Previous answers address your sister's response to your news, which was, taken alone, properly supportive of you and your difficult decision. Others touched on the importance of separating out that gift from her (sadly predictable, given your particular family dynamics) take on the lake episode. You have had therapy, and the self-examination, reflection, and pattern-recognition practice that goes along with it. You've led very different lives, all along. Your views, probably even your thought patterns, aren't like hers, and I agree with the others that she was coming from a place of reflexive, possibly generational, defensiveness.
[I'd like to think that if someone I loved shared that they were discontinuing chemotherapy, I could keep it together for the entire conversation. That I'd rely on that beautiful, practical "ring theory" I think I first read about in this space. But I can't be sure; if the next topic was my loved one's mistreatment by our family, by *me*... I worry I'd get in the way. That I'd try minimizing, too. It would be from shame, and fear, even if it looked like habit.]
dubious_dude, you are who you are and your relatives are who they are. We're formed, in part, by our interactions with our families of origin. These are painful things that you've shared, and I wish they hadn't happened.
But the good in you, the good that's obvious in your contributions here? You developed those qualities in some lousy circumstances, which is very much to your credit.
You're a sensitive, sympathetic person. What you are is more than enough.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:32 PM on August 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
[I'd like to think that if someone I loved shared that they were discontinuing chemotherapy, I could keep it together for the entire conversation. That I'd rely on that beautiful, practical "ring theory" I think I first read about in this space. But I can't be sure; if the next topic was my loved one's mistreatment by our family, by *me*... I worry I'd get in the way. That I'd try minimizing, too. It would be from shame, and fear, even if it looked like habit.]
dubious_dude, you are who you are and your relatives are who they are. We're formed, in part, by our interactions with our families of origin. These are painful things that you've shared, and I wish they hadn't happened.
But the good in you, the good that's obvious in your contributions here? You developed those qualities in some lousy circumstances, which is very much to your credit.
You're a sensitive, sympathetic person. What you are is more than enough.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:32 PM on August 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I can easily see how your sister could have seen the lake thing as utterly unimportant compared to the major news about chemo. In fact, it might have been upsetting for her to deal with that topic after the gravity of a cancer/chemo discussion. I would honor her experience as well here, and recognize that even with your explanations, a focus in the lake could seem dismissive of her emotions surrounding the ‘real’ and ‘serious’ topic at hand.
This is also coming from someone who also explains things to death and thinks that if only I expressed all the painful and historical nuance surrounding a thing that people will care and ‘get it.’ But it just alienates people and brings them down and universally inspires avoidance in my experience. And therapy can sometimes intensify that dynamic with a bunch of terms and heavy nomenclature and exhaustive psychologizing. It’s a drag and it also shames people, and Ive almost never seen it go well. The internet makes us think all we have to do is have a clearly reasoned argument, but no.
posted by asimplemouse at 10:47 PM on August 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is also coming from someone who also explains things to death and thinks that if only I expressed all the painful and historical nuance surrounding a thing that people will care and ‘get it.’ But it just alienates people and brings them down and universally inspires avoidance in my experience. And therapy can sometimes intensify that dynamic with a bunch of terms and heavy nomenclature and exhaustive psychologizing. It’s a drag and it also shames people, and Ive almost never seen it go well. The internet makes us think all we have to do is have a clearly reasoned argument, but no.
posted by asimplemouse at 10:47 PM on August 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
In your original post you wrote that you felt kinda pressured a bit. Can you describe what they were actually doing that made you feel pressured?
Related, have you tried EMDR for your bullying trauma ? It seems like a lot of things trigger those memories and feelings; it’d be great to turn the volume down.
posted by mermaidcafe at 11:03 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Related, have you tried EMDR for your bullying trauma ? It seems like a lot of things trigger those memories and feelings; it’d be great to turn the volume down.
posted by mermaidcafe at 11:03 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: In fact, it might have been upsetting for her to deal with that topic after the gravity of a cancer/chemo discussion
Oops. My bad. I wasn’t clear about one thing — I talked with my sister about the lake situation first, to get it out of the way — then we moved on to the chemo discussion after that. Not sure what a difference that would make, but as a few others brought up the sequence, figured it’d be worthy to point out.
I was at a very low point earlier — was dealing with the conversation and processing it, plus a close friend of mine didn’t take the news about chemo very well, which I had shared with him around the same time. It was overwhelming, and that’s why I might have sounded “raw” earlier because I was juggling those situations.
I really love the perspectives here and my head is clearer now — I can see how my sister might have interpreted my sharing about the lake to "coerce" her to be on my side or “vs” my mom, even though that wasn’t my intention at all. I felt embarrassed about the situation, and she was there, so I wanted to clear the air. My cousin brought the night and my blowup up a few times in later family settings, and she seemed bothered about it, so that's why I wanted to clear the air with her. I really like the term “reflexive defensiveness” — that’s new to me.
I think the best situation is to let the lake situation go, move on — it's obvious we won't see eye to eye about it, and that's very highly likely to the dynamics of my family, which is a completely separate question (har har). Her being supportive of my chemo decision is much more important than a bad night at the lake, even though it's a bummer that she wasn't supportive about it to start with.
I am in therapy, yes — as a matter of fact, switching therapists (involuntary — my therapist is leaving the practice).
Good night!
posted by dubious_dude at 11:06 PM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oops. My bad. I wasn’t clear about one thing — I talked with my sister about the lake situation first, to get it out of the way — then we moved on to the chemo discussion after that. Not sure what a difference that would make, but as a few others brought up the sequence, figured it’d be worthy to point out.
I was at a very low point earlier — was dealing with the conversation and processing it, plus a close friend of mine didn’t take the news about chemo very well, which I had shared with him around the same time. It was overwhelming, and that’s why I might have sounded “raw” earlier because I was juggling those situations.
I really love the perspectives here and my head is clearer now — I can see how my sister might have interpreted my sharing about the lake to "coerce" her to be on my side or “vs” my mom, even though that wasn’t my intention at all. I felt embarrassed about the situation, and she was there, so I wanted to clear the air. My cousin brought the night and my blowup up a few times in later family settings, and she seemed bothered about it, so that's why I wanted to clear the air with her. I really like the term “reflexive defensiveness” — that’s new to me.
I think the best situation is to let the lake situation go, move on — it's obvious we won't see eye to eye about it, and that's very highly likely to the dynamics of my family, which is a completely separate question (har har). Her being supportive of my chemo decision is much more important than a bad night at the lake, even though it's a bummer that she wasn't supportive about it to start with.
I am in therapy, yes — as a matter of fact, switching therapists (involuntary — my therapist is leaving the practice).
Good night!
posted by dubious_dude at 11:06 PM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: The internet makes us think all we have to do is have a clearly reasoned argument
This is a good point worth unpacking a little.
The internet makes endless amounts of clearly reasoned argument available for perusal by those of us who like that sort of thing, because the internet makes anything available to those who like that sort of thing.
Experience with participating in online discussions, though, teaches us pretty damn quick that almost everybody prefers to stick with their existing worldview than to have it substantially challenged by reasoned argument.
Online, most genuinely reasoned argument tends to stay in its own lane, getting honed and reinforced by the relatively tiny minority of people who value reasoned argument for its own sake. Reasoned argument that shows any success at changing people's positions on the topics being reasoned about is actually super rare. It's less rare on Metafilter than in most places, which is one of the things I like about this place.
Straight-up assertion and appeals to emotion have a way stronger track record for changing minds than reasoned argument does, both online and off, and if you continue to hammer people with logic past the point where doing so has clearly become distressing for both of you then you're more likely to make them double down as well than instigate any change you'd rather see.
I think the best situation is to let the lake situation go, move on
I'm close to agreeing with that, as long as letting it go doesn't involve forgetting that it happened or that it having happened mattered. I see the lake incident as one of those "Ow! Hot stove is hot!" experiences. But yeah, there's very little to be gained by trying to persuade a hot stove not to be hot after it's already inflicted a second degree burn.
posted by flabdablet at 11:15 PM on August 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is a good point worth unpacking a little.
The internet makes endless amounts of clearly reasoned argument available for perusal by those of us who like that sort of thing, because the internet makes anything available to those who like that sort of thing.
Experience with participating in online discussions, though, teaches us pretty damn quick that almost everybody prefers to stick with their existing worldview than to have it substantially challenged by reasoned argument.
Online, most genuinely reasoned argument tends to stay in its own lane, getting honed and reinforced by the relatively tiny minority of people who value reasoned argument for its own sake. Reasoned argument that shows any success at changing people's positions on the topics being reasoned about is actually super rare. It's less rare on Metafilter than in most places, which is one of the things I like about this place.
Straight-up assertion and appeals to emotion have a way stronger track record for changing minds than reasoned argument does, both online and off, and if you continue to hammer people with logic past the point where doing so has clearly become distressing for both of you then you're more likely to make them double down as well than instigate any change you'd rather see.
I think the best situation is to let the lake situation go, move on
I'm close to agreeing with that, as long as letting it go doesn't involve forgetting that it happened or that it having happened mattered. I see the lake incident as one of those "Ow! Hot stove is hot!" experiences. But yeah, there's very little to be gained by trying to persuade a hot stove not to be hot after it's already inflicted a second degree burn.
posted by flabdablet at 11:15 PM on August 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Dubious_dude, I was deeply supportive at the outset and remain firmly in support that the incident was not okay. Still am. But it is time to let it go.
Across so many of your questions are examples of you requiring validation from others on things big and small, filtering for the negative and creating conflict with others where they have to address the ways they've triggered your trauma responses - often unknowingly (see the times where people commented on your looks in genuinely innocuous ways.)
Like if you look at some of your questions, they now come with links to past questions and history and suggest you spend a lot of time harboring resentment, keeping score, and not actually letting things go when you say you want to. As you transition to a new therapist - this to me should be goal one - how can I truly forgive people for their transgressions small and large so you can have the support you need in your life right now.
There's an old saying that you can be right or you can be happy. It's obviously not a strict dichotomy, but in many situations it's a good guide to what you may want to choose to do if you're at a crossroads. If you had just addressed your decision not to keep doing chemo, you'd have left the call with your sister feeling warm and supported. But you chose to start with a conflict point and now - you feel less warm and supported and not as happy. You chose being right.
You seem to make that choice a lot and it doesn't seem to work out that well for you. Why not try an alternate road for a while and see how you feel?
posted by openhearted at 5:19 AM on September 1, 2023 [36 favorites]
Across so many of your questions are examples of you requiring validation from others on things big and small, filtering for the negative and creating conflict with others where they have to address the ways they've triggered your trauma responses - often unknowingly (see the times where people commented on your looks in genuinely innocuous ways.)
Like if you look at some of your questions, they now come with links to past questions and history and suggest you spend a lot of time harboring resentment, keeping score, and not actually letting things go when you say you want to. As you transition to a new therapist - this to me should be goal one - how can I truly forgive people for their transgressions small and large so you can have the support you need in your life right now.
There's an old saying that you can be right or you can be happy. It's obviously not a strict dichotomy, but in many situations it's a good guide to what you may want to choose to do if you're at a crossroads. If you had just addressed your decision not to keep doing chemo, you'd have left the call with your sister feeling warm and supported. But you chose to start with a conflict point and now - you feel less warm and supported and not as happy. You chose being right.
You seem to make that choice a lot and it doesn't seem to work out that well for you. Why not try an alternate road for a while and see how you feel?
posted by openhearted at 5:19 AM on September 1, 2023 [36 favorites]
Best answer: You feel sad because it IS sad. Your sister's lack of empathy IS disheartening, and her insistence that it is rational for adults to live by elementary school rules is disconcerting and scary.
As the meme goes: I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people. Like, it's hard to imagine where she might draw a line here - would an elderly family member have to go in the lake too because that's just the rules and they knew what they got themselves into? A small child? How about a non-sibling who was recovering from surgery? Is this really her idea of care and concern for others, that a fucking Yahtzee game is more important than people?
You can't fix that kind of broken in someone. All you can do is NEVER play a game with them again, because next time it might be to the death.
And the rest of the family also seems to think all this is rational and okay, and that is also heartbreaking. It hurts you because it is hurtful. And of course you want to try to get them to not be this bad, to talk them out of their crappy values, because you want to give them every chance to be better not just because families are supposed to be better, that's supposed to be our safe place, but we also don't want to confront what they must feel about us personally if that's how they really are.
But from what you say about the rest of the conversation, it seems like your sister does care about you quite a bit in whatever capacity she is capable of, it just seems like the family dysfunctions cast an eerie pall over certain formations of family dynamics. It is also possible her arguments are simply defensiveness and she knows damn well she's wrong but that dysfunction won't let her concede. I don't think further conversations with her about this incident will result in you feeling better, but you may detect more grownup intervention from her in future situations that threaten to go down the elementary school route again.
I definitely agree that if you have to confront their ridiculous behavior again in the future, don't give them a list of personal explanations for why it's wrong, going back decades, as if this is a debate. It's not, it is you pointing out an obvious issue - this is harmful, this isn't safe, this isn't kind, this is not grown-up behavior, or this is not a reasonable thing to ask someone to do - and stand on that ground and refuse to participate or facilitate behavior you don't agree with. The next time you're in a lake situation, just go "this is not safe, enjoy your assault charges, I'm going to bed."
I do not think personal pleas about past traumas are ever going to sway them, and that hurts because you crave acknowledgement and repair on those traumas from them (instead of making your own repair, which is the controllable course of action). But in typical adult discourse that's not a component anyway - if someone takes credit for your work at work, it's not necessary to explain how this happened on your 3rd grade science project, because that's not what makes this bad. Taking credit for someone else's work IS bad, period. Pressuring people to jump in lakes when they don't want to is bad, same as pressuring someone to do anything they don't want to (barring maybe life-saving interventions, and even that is ethically super complicated in most circumstances that intertwine deeply with consent/ability to consent) is bad. It is sufficient to point out it is bad, you do not have to provide evidence - you do not have to prove you deserve adherence to basic human responsibility. You don't have to earn that, you already deserve it.
I know you keep hoping for better from that whole lot, and I am sure they are not actual monsters but people stuck in a system that's got some wide veins of dysfunction supplying it, but you may have to do some prep work to get better at meeting them where they are, flaws and all. It's cold to advise you to simply expect less from them, but I do think that when you feel yourself urgently craving - as our inner children do - something your adult self recognizes they may not be equipped to appropriately provide, try to practice taking 2 steps back and a few slow breaths first, so that you are communicating at a level you recognize they can better handle.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:05 AM on September 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
As the meme goes: I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people. Like, it's hard to imagine where she might draw a line here - would an elderly family member have to go in the lake too because that's just the rules and they knew what they got themselves into? A small child? How about a non-sibling who was recovering from surgery? Is this really her idea of care and concern for others, that a fucking Yahtzee game is more important than people?
You can't fix that kind of broken in someone. All you can do is NEVER play a game with them again, because next time it might be to the death.
And the rest of the family also seems to think all this is rational and okay, and that is also heartbreaking. It hurts you because it is hurtful. And of course you want to try to get them to not be this bad, to talk them out of their crappy values, because you want to give them every chance to be better not just because families are supposed to be better, that's supposed to be our safe place, but we also don't want to confront what they must feel about us personally if that's how they really are.
But from what you say about the rest of the conversation, it seems like your sister does care about you quite a bit in whatever capacity she is capable of, it just seems like the family dysfunctions cast an eerie pall over certain formations of family dynamics. It is also possible her arguments are simply defensiveness and she knows damn well she's wrong but that dysfunction won't let her concede. I don't think further conversations with her about this incident will result in you feeling better, but you may detect more grownup intervention from her in future situations that threaten to go down the elementary school route again.
I definitely agree that if you have to confront their ridiculous behavior again in the future, don't give them a list of personal explanations for why it's wrong, going back decades, as if this is a debate. It's not, it is you pointing out an obvious issue - this is harmful, this isn't safe, this isn't kind, this is not grown-up behavior, or this is not a reasonable thing to ask someone to do - and stand on that ground and refuse to participate or facilitate behavior you don't agree with. The next time you're in a lake situation, just go "this is not safe, enjoy your assault charges, I'm going to bed."
I do not think personal pleas about past traumas are ever going to sway them, and that hurts because you crave acknowledgement and repair on those traumas from them (instead of making your own repair, which is the controllable course of action). But in typical adult discourse that's not a component anyway - if someone takes credit for your work at work, it's not necessary to explain how this happened on your 3rd grade science project, because that's not what makes this bad. Taking credit for someone else's work IS bad, period. Pressuring people to jump in lakes when they don't want to is bad, same as pressuring someone to do anything they don't want to (barring maybe life-saving interventions, and even that is ethically super complicated in most circumstances that intertwine deeply with consent/ability to consent) is bad. It is sufficient to point out it is bad, you do not have to provide evidence - you do not have to prove you deserve adherence to basic human responsibility. You don't have to earn that, you already deserve it.
I know you keep hoping for better from that whole lot, and I am sure they are not actual monsters but people stuck in a system that's got some wide veins of dysfunction supplying it, but you may have to do some prep work to get better at meeting them where they are, flaws and all. It's cold to advise you to simply expect less from them, but I do think that when you feel yourself urgently craving - as our inner children do - something your adult self recognizes they may not be equipped to appropriately provide, try to practice taking 2 steps back and a few slow breaths first, so that you are communicating at a level you recognize they can better handle.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:05 AM on September 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Stories are great and massively important and useful. However, This is when our propensity to tell the story gets in the way of connection.
When we try to tell our story in a logical, clear way, it implicitly invites the listener to focus on the story, and therefore focus on pattern-finding and problem-solving. It elicits our critical thinking skills, rather than our compassion. ("Critical thinking" in both senses.)
And since the feelings and relationship connection(s) aren't directly addressed, their influence tends to be not experienced thoroughly enough, nor integrated into the conversation of the moment.
I find that when I can minimize the story as much as possible, and speak from a place of my longing, my yearning, my values and needs, and my request of what I'm wanting from the other person, it often goes better for both of us. That's hard. Hard and scary. But so exhilarating when it goes well.
posted by interbeing at 6:49 AM on September 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
When we try to tell our story in a logical, clear way, it implicitly invites the listener to focus on the story, and therefore focus on pattern-finding and problem-solving. It elicits our critical thinking skills, rather than our compassion. ("Critical thinking" in both senses.)
And since the feelings and relationship connection(s) aren't directly addressed, their influence tends to be not experienced thoroughly enough, nor integrated into the conversation of the moment.
I find that when I can minimize the story as much as possible, and speak from a place of my longing, my yearning, my values and needs, and my request of what I'm wanting from the other person, it often goes better for both of us. That's hard. Hard and scary. But so exhilarating when it goes well.
posted by interbeing at 6:49 AM on September 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: One way to think about it is that the chemo news is brand new, definitely adult/mature topic, and you were able to guide her towards what you needed from the outset of the conversation. It was a private conversation between the two of you. And she came through!
In contrast, the game/dunking event was a groupthink event, and most of all an almost-literal throwback to childhood games and the dynamics that came with them. So it started out as a continuation of old patterns, where things got set in motion from decades ago, and because groupthink, there was a lot of peer pressure for how to participate and treat others. I wonder if her defensiveness around that is partly because she actually recognizes all that and felt powerless to have it evolve any other way.
Which is just another way to say what Lyn said -- you can't fix what's broken in someone. Sounds like past patterns, at least, are still broken in her. But the silver lining is that she is willing and wants to be understanding and validating for you in the present and future events. And if you can accept that from/in her, you can access and rely on her support.
Keeping you in my thoughts, dude.
posted by Dashy at 7:02 AM on September 1, 2023
In contrast, the game/dunking event was a groupthink event, and most of all an almost-literal throwback to childhood games and the dynamics that came with them. So it started out as a continuation of old patterns, where things got set in motion from decades ago, and because groupthink, there was a lot of peer pressure for how to participate and treat others. I wonder if her defensiveness around that is partly because she actually recognizes all that and felt powerless to have it evolve any other way.
Which is just another way to say what Lyn said -- you can't fix what's broken in someone. Sounds like past patterns, at least, are still broken in her. But the silver lining is that she is willing and wants to be understanding and validating for you in the present and future events. And if you can accept that from/in her, you can access and rely on her support.
Keeping you in my thoughts, dude.
posted by Dashy at 7:02 AM on September 1, 2023
Best answer: It's hard to let things go when you really feel like you deserve validation and / or comfort. It's incredibly painful not to get those things from people we love, who are supposed to love us back and want us to feel safe and supported. But that is just not a reality in many relationships.
I have been there, and I know how hard this can be. I'm sorry you're going through this. And I think this is an excellent opportunity to find some therapeutic modalities that actually address the underlying root of this. I recommend Internal Family Systems (aka Parts Work). It has helped me so very much in dealing with this exact type of pattern. I hope you give it a try and it helps you as well.
posted by ananci at 7:27 AM on September 1, 2023
I have been there, and I know how hard this can be. I'm sorry you're going through this. And I think this is an excellent opportunity to find some therapeutic modalities that actually address the underlying root of this. I recommend Internal Family Systems (aka Parts Work). It has helped me so very much in dealing with this exact type of pattern. I hope you give it a try and it helps you as well.
posted by ananci at 7:27 AM on September 1, 2023
Best answer: Your sister has a different framework, and even if her understanding of the event is different, that doesn't mean yours is wrong. It's okay for her to not change her thinking, but I hope she listened well.
Also, her framework accepts the family tradition of bullying. Even if she didn't change her thinking, you challenged her, and over time may change the way she thinks about how families should behave.
posted by theora55 at 7:49 AM on September 1, 2023
Also, her framework accepts the family tradition of bullying. Even if she didn't change her thinking, you challenged her, and over time may change the way she thinks about how families should behave.
posted by theora55 at 7:49 AM on September 1, 2023
Best answer: Some families are just never gonna get it. I get in fights with my mom all the time because she can't deal with negative situations and tells me to shape up and fix it and everything has a solution and then we scream at each other. The only way to "win" is to not play at this, so we have the awkward conversations like we had yesterday of "how was work?" "Work was the usual. WHAT'S GOING ON WITH YOU?" I'm going to see her this weekend and we'll have another fight again because she can't not ask and she can't not react in the way she's gonna react. She complains that we never talk any more, but there's good reasons for that.
You can't get tea and sympathy from some people, including your own family. You have to stop trying with them and just move to "Let's talk about something else." Your sister isn't going to get it, and you should take the partial win and move on from trying to get further well, anything out of her.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:59 AM on September 1, 2023
You can't get tea and sympathy from some people, including your own family. You have to stop trying with them and just move to "Let's talk about something else." Your sister isn't going to get it, and you should take the partial win and move on from trying to get further well, anything out of her.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:59 AM on September 1, 2023
Best answer: Folks have covered a lot, I just wanted to pull out "did you actually ask your sister for what you wanted?" It sounds like her solution to "I did not feel comfortable with the stakes of the game" is that you shouldn't have played or should have said upfront "I'm not down for jumping in the lake in the dark, can we skip that?" (and then if everyone else is really into the idea you can just back out gracefully). So one way of reading this is that she's trying to help you problem solve! She is trying to give you advice on how you avoid this situation in the future. And what you wanted was support and sympathy. But there are a lot of conversational tricks to asking for that in a way that makes it possible to receive, and it might be worth seeing if your therapist has any advice for future conversations that seem to go off the rails. I know professional counseling helped me a lot with, to grab a recent example, being able to stop in the middle of a personal feelings conversation that had dug into a really painful "who is Right" place and explicitly redirect: "hey, I didn't come here to try to say you were a bad person, I wanted to mention it because I've been in pain and I thought you might want to know that?" and then it went to the hugs and reconciliation place I'd hoped for.
posted by Lady Li at 9:55 AM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Lady Li at 9:55 AM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Seconding @openhearted.
I don’t think your family handled it well either time. They should treat you with more respect and care.
But I can only say this bluntly: people are tired of hearing that they bring that all back every time you have friction with them. It sounds like you often explain it to people in hopes they’ll see your struggle and then validate you, which just isn’t possible because nothing is enough if you keep pulling the scab off that because it’s just a part of your conflict resolution—a system in which you don’t seem prepared to offer anything.
We do our best to validate you here and then you go into other situations that seem to undercut that.
I also have PTSD. I can be irrational and hard to get along with sometimes. I want people who are understanding of that. But it’s also my job to manage the situations I’m in and what I do.
You will always be a victim if you never say “I’m not jumping in the water, period” or “maybe the losers should make the s’mores instead.”
Going along with what others want and then feeling hurt and triggered and giving another lecture about your trauma, which they’ll never validate bc they’re frankly sick of hearing about it—- well, that doesn’t empower you much.
posted by mermaidcafe at 10:28 AM on September 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don’t think your family handled it well either time. They should treat you with more respect and care.
But I can only say this bluntly: people are tired of hearing that they bring that all back every time you have friction with them. It sounds like you often explain it to people in hopes they’ll see your struggle and then validate you, which just isn’t possible because nothing is enough if you keep pulling the scab off that because it’s just a part of your conflict resolution—a system in which you don’t seem prepared to offer anything.
We do our best to validate you here and then you go into other situations that seem to undercut that.
I also have PTSD. I can be irrational and hard to get along with sometimes. I want people who are understanding of that. But it’s also my job to manage the situations I’m in and what I do.
You will always be a victim if you never say “I’m not jumping in the water, period” or “maybe the losers should make the s’mores instead.”
Going along with what others want and then feeling hurt and triggered and giving another lecture about your trauma, which they’ll never validate bc they’re frankly sick of hearing about it—- well, that doesn’t empower you much.
posted by mermaidcafe at 10:28 AM on September 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: How would you recommend I navigate this situation?
The reason this tape keeps playing in your head is that you want your version of the story validated: you were victimized and you want your family to take responsibility for victimizing you.
You may find it easier to get over this if you accept that you DID have agency with the lake incident. I think actually the reason you are so angry is that deep down you know you could have just said "that's not happening" and simply not gone. But instead you went on down to the lake with them, and it wound up sucking even more than you thought it would. Lesson learned.
Try reframing it to yourself like this: your family made a mistake pressuring you. You made a mistake by going along with it. Hopefully that will let you put down the burden of the total-victimhood narrative. It sounds like your sister, at least, loves you a lot. It would be worth putting this incident behind you.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:30 PM on September 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
The reason this tape keeps playing in your head is that you want your version of the story validated: you were victimized and you want your family to take responsibility for victimizing you.
You may find it easier to get over this if you accept that you DID have agency with the lake incident. I think actually the reason you are so angry is that deep down you know you could have just said "that's not happening" and simply not gone. But instead you went on down to the lake with them, and it wound up sucking even more than you thought it would. Lesson learned.
Try reframing it to yourself like this: your family made a mistake pressuring you. You made a mistake by going along with it. Hopefully that will let you put down the burden of the total-victimhood narrative. It sounds like your sister, at least, loves you a lot. It would be worth putting this incident behind you.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:30 PM on September 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
I think it also might be helpful to consider that trying to apply the research model of consent and the ability to withdraw it at any time isn’t the best fit for this situation. Your family are not researchers, you are not a research subject—they are allowed to be frustrated if you agree to something and then renege. It is not ideal behavior for them to be pushy about it but they are not ethically bound to handle you with the kind of impartial distance to your decisions/actions that a researcher is. (This is also not a sexual situation where ongoing consent is critical.)
So I would recommend rethinking how you are framing this incident for yourself and how other people should understand it. You did not consent to participate in a research study and have a researcher commit a huge breech of ethics by pressuring you to continue with the experiment when you said you wanted to leave. You agreed to play a game with your family when you weren’t actually comfortable with their “fun” consequence for the losers and then were pressured into going through with it. You are right that they were unkind, your sister is right that you could, and probably should, have not opted in to the game if winning was the only acceptable outcome given the set stakes for losing.
posted by pie_seven at 4:55 AM on September 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
So I would recommend rethinking how you are framing this incident for yourself and how other people should understand it. You did not consent to participate in a research study and have a researcher commit a huge breech of ethics by pressuring you to continue with the experiment when you said you wanted to leave. You agreed to play a game with your family when you weren’t actually comfortable with their “fun” consequence for the losers and then were pressured into going through with it. You are right that they were unkind, your sister is right that you could, and probably should, have not opted in to the game if winning was the only acceptable outcome given the set stakes for losing.
posted by pie_seven at 4:55 AM on September 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
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posted by mermaidcafe at 6:14 PM on August 31, 2023 [37 favorites]