Was I gaslit? Bothered by an interaction with a friend.
February 9, 2023 6:51 PM Subscribe
Last November, I asked about William and his birthday. Got a lot of helpful answers here. We got together earlier this week, and during our conversation, he shared that he was pissed off because I asked Gabby (doing what he told me to do), and didn't expect that I would actually do that. We had a good, transparent conversation, but I still feel bothered by what he said, and want to see if that's a sign of gaslighting?
So, after that first question, I did a lot of analyzing and realized I might have inadventurely invited myself (even though William originally said he was thinking about hosting the event, and specifically said I was invited, but a few months later, during our 1:1 birthday dinner, I asked him what the update was, because he's forgetful, and he said it was still on and to contact Gabby for details). I made the mistake of not reading between the lines.
As my question detailed, I had then reached out to Gabby, like William had instructed. What happened led to my question, which had helpful answers. I ruminated for a while, then moved on, reducing contact with William. I realized it was a communication breakdown, and he might have not wanted to invite me. I was hurt, but realized it really had nothing to do with me.
Earlier this week, we had a nice dinner (first time we got together since that last time), but I was a bit caught off guard when William said he was pissed off at me last November after I reached out to Gabby and that he felt like I invited myself. He explained that he didn't want his social circles to overlap (as we here had suspected). I was fine with the explanation; it was a great, transparent conversation overall. However, it also bothered me because I didn't even know he was pissed off at me in the first place, and I was just following his instructions. I get the inviting myself part; that was my bad, I misread the situation, but he did explicitly tell me to contact Gabby. He said he never expected that I would actually go as far as reaching out to Gabby. I was just doing what I was told. Not everyone can read between the lines. I felt a bit uneasy afterwards because of that statement. I'm trying to get a better grasp on understanding people and reading between the lines.
Other than that, we had a very nice dinner, so there's no other issue; but I am a bit bothered by that, and wanted to ask and see if that is a sign of gaslighting? I do acknowledge I have a hard time sometimes reading/understanding social cues, but I do feel the "pissed off" part was a bit strong, especially as I had nothing but the best of intentions, and I was doing what I was told to do. It was also not my intention to invite myself; I was simply following up because he can be forgetful and had told me to remind him about stuff, and he originally did say I could go axe throwing.
And yes, he is definitely a poopshake, as ever so eloquently and hilariously said in my last Ask. I'm accepting that part of him, though, and acknowledging I can't change him or who he is, and just to accept that part of him.
So, after that first question, I did a lot of analyzing and realized I might have inadventurely invited myself (even though William originally said he was thinking about hosting the event, and specifically said I was invited, but a few months later, during our 1:1 birthday dinner, I asked him what the update was, because he's forgetful, and he said it was still on and to contact Gabby for details). I made the mistake of not reading between the lines.
As my question detailed, I had then reached out to Gabby, like William had instructed. What happened led to my question, which had helpful answers. I ruminated for a while, then moved on, reducing contact with William. I realized it was a communication breakdown, and he might have not wanted to invite me. I was hurt, but realized it really had nothing to do with me.
Earlier this week, we had a nice dinner (first time we got together since that last time), but I was a bit caught off guard when William said he was pissed off at me last November after I reached out to Gabby and that he felt like I invited myself. He explained that he didn't want his social circles to overlap (as we here had suspected). I was fine with the explanation; it was a great, transparent conversation overall. However, it also bothered me because I didn't even know he was pissed off at me in the first place, and I was just following his instructions. I get the inviting myself part; that was my bad, I misread the situation, but he did explicitly tell me to contact Gabby. He said he never expected that I would actually go as far as reaching out to Gabby. I was just doing what I was told. Not everyone can read between the lines. I felt a bit uneasy afterwards because of that statement. I'm trying to get a better grasp on understanding people and reading between the lines.
Other than that, we had a very nice dinner, so there's no other issue; but I am a bit bothered by that, and wanted to ask and see if that is a sign of gaslighting? I do acknowledge I have a hard time sometimes reading/understanding social cues, but I do feel the "pissed off" part was a bit strong, especially as I had nothing but the best of intentions, and I was doing what I was told to do. It was also not my intention to invite myself; I was simply following up because he can be forgetful and had told me to remind him about stuff, and he originally did say I could go axe throwing.
And yes, he is definitely a poopshake, as ever so eloquently and hilariously said in my last Ask. I'm accepting that part of him, though, and acknowledging I can't change him or who he is, and just to accept that part of him.
Good good, I'm glad you brought up the poopshake.
Is this interaction definitionally gaslighting? It's making you feel bad. Why does it matter?
If someone is pooping in your milkshake, does it really matter where on the Bristol Stool Scale that poop falls? It's still poop.
It's poop in your shake. It's behavior that makes you feel bad. You don't need to drink milkshakes with poop in them, and you don't need to spend time with people who make you feel bad.
posted by phunniemee at 7:21 PM on February 9, 2023 [25 favorites]
Is this interaction definitionally gaslighting? It's making you feel bad. Why does it matter?
If someone is pooping in your milkshake, does it really matter where on the Bristol Stool Scale that poop falls? It's still poop.
It's poop in your shake. It's behavior that makes you feel bad. You don't need to drink milkshakes with poop in them, and you don't need to spend time with people who make you feel bad.
posted by phunniemee at 7:21 PM on February 9, 2023 [25 favorites]
Best answer: No, in this case it is not classic gaslighting because he's being quite open about the miscommunication. If he was pretending that he never told you to contact Gabby that would be more in the line of gaslighting.
In a lot of ways this is a classic "Ask" vs. "Guess" culture situation: he was doing that delicate "guess" thing where what he said wasn't what he meant and he had specific cultural expectations of what you would do. You were doing the blunt "ask" thing where everyone says what's on their mind and does what they say they'll do.
I can see where you would feel gaslit, as "guess" culture easily lends itself to that. When people aren't being clear up front they can later claim they said just about anything. Or that you should have understood what they were saying despite the fact that they obfuscated it. It can be very frustrating.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:28 PM on February 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
In a lot of ways this is a classic "Ask" vs. "Guess" culture situation: he was doing that delicate "guess" thing where what he said wasn't what he meant and he had specific cultural expectations of what you would do. You were doing the blunt "ask" thing where everyone says what's on their mind and does what they say they'll do.
I can see where you would feel gaslit, as "guess" culture easily lends itself to that. When people aren't being clear up front they can later claim they said just about anything. Or that you should have understood what they were saying despite the fact that they obfuscated it. It can be very frustrating.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:28 PM on February 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Ah, this interaction is making you feel uncomfortable for good reason, but you're using the wrong term - it's not gaslighting (Gaslighting would be if he tried to make you believe that he never told you to ask Gabby).
"he did explicitly tell me to contact Gabby. He said he never expected that I would actually go as far as reaching out to Gabby."
Yeahhhh... That's not on you. That's just bullshit on his part.
I mean, it is a really common abusive tactic to turn a shitty thing the original person did around, and get really offended by it, to the extent that the person originally harmed starts blaming themselves.
The bit that feels like gaslighting is where he's the one who did the shitty thing, but he's turning it around and making it feel like it's your fault. But this is common in abusive tactics, not just in gaslighting, but the term DARVO etc.
He told you to ask Gabby, you asked Gabby, and then he told you that *he* was offended by what he told you to do.
But still, you're going round in circles -
You know this is bullshit, mefi has pointed out it's bullshit, but he's making you doubt yourself enough that you're coming to ask us again, but if you step back, you're not really asking anything new.
Is he really worth the cumulative stress and self doubt he inspires in you?
posted by Elysum at 7:44 PM on February 9, 2023 [37 favorites]
"he did explicitly tell me to contact Gabby. He said he never expected that I would actually go as far as reaching out to Gabby."
Yeahhhh... That's not on you. That's just bullshit on his part.
I mean, it is a really common abusive tactic to turn a shitty thing the original person did around, and get really offended by it, to the extent that the person originally harmed starts blaming themselves.
The bit that feels like gaslighting is where he's the one who did the shitty thing, but he's turning it around and making it feel like it's your fault. But this is common in abusive tactics, not just in gaslighting, but the term DARVO etc.
He told you to ask Gabby, you asked Gabby, and then he told you that *he* was offended by what he told you to do.
But still, you're going round in circles -
You know this is bullshit, mefi has pointed out it's bullshit, but he's making you doubt yourself enough that you're coming to ask us again, but if you step back, you're not really asking anything new.
Is he really worth the cumulative stress and self doubt he inspires in you?
posted by Elysum at 7:44 PM on February 9, 2023 [37 favorites]
It's not classic gaslighting, but it's also not good communication. And if you have trouble reading tacit and indirect communication, and this person has known trouble delivering direct and explict communication, you have an inherent conflict there. It seems you're internalizing the results of that conflict as a value judgment on yourself. It's not. But if your goal is to keep yourself emotionally safe, you might consider whether maintaining a relationship with an unclear communicator who is holding a 6 month resentment about someone who he was unclear with will be worth it to you in the long run.
posted by Miko at 7:55 PM on February 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Miko at 7:55 PM on February 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
WHY are you still hanging out with him. He’s 💩 in a 🥤. He’s causing you so much grief.
posted by pando11 at 8:03 PM on February 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by pando11 at 8:03 PM on February 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
Best answer: I think it's absolutely worth understanding what he's doing and naming it, in part so that you can recognize it in the future.
William wasn't gaslighting you, exactly, since he wasn't denying your reality or that it happened, but he was definitely lying/being dishonest/not telling the truth. The most generous reading is that he was doing this so both of you could save face (he doesn't have to outright reject you, you don't have to cover up your disappointment). This would be a very Guess thing to do. In fact, he could be thinking of this as him doing you a social favor when you did a faux pas by inviting yourself. But you didn't pick up on it, and then when you called Gabby, you made him look bad by having to reject you outright. This explains why he's pissed: he tried to do you a favor and not only did you not notice, you made him look bad.
I don't agree with this logic, personally. It doesn't strike me as a kind rejection even in Guess-land, it reeks of the reverse-victim-and-offender tactic in DARVO, and in general I think mature adults should be more straightforward in their communication. But that's my take on what's going on.
And it sounds like you value transparency and honesty in your friends! It hurts when friends lie to you. It's confusing when friends lie to you, ostensibly for your benefit. It's downright bewildering when friends get mad at you for not being grateful for their lie (seriously, ugh). Not only that, but they bring it up 6 months later (double ugh). I can see why you feel gaslit. You thought you were playing by the rules, when in fact the rules were completely different.
In my experience, when people say one thing but mean the opposite, I can tell because I feel funny when I hear it. My radar goes "something feels... off... about that" even if I don't know what it is yet. Either it doesn't make sense somehow (why is Gabby suddenly managing invitations to William's own birthday party?), or their body language is "too much" as if they're trying to cover up the lie (like suddenly smiling a little too widely or acting a little too friendly), or they stiffen up as they say it, or I just get a weird flutter in my stomach when I hear it. There's always some funny feeling. Pay attention to that feeling.
By the way, this? You thought you were playing by the rules, when in fact the rules were completely different. That's a classic experience for neurodivergent folks, who are likely to take a situation literally without catching the additional layers of context that are typically communicated through social cues and body language. And a common result of having that happen over and over again in life is some combination of RSD (Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria) and/or codependency and/or CPTSD. Here's the best explanation I've seen about it.
posted by danceswithlight at 9:37 PM on February 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
William wasn't gaslighting you, exactly, since he wasn't denying your reality or that it happened, but he was definitely lying/being dishonest/not telling the truth. The most generous reading is that he was doing this so both of you could save face (he doesn't have to outright reject you, you don't have to cover up your disappointment). This would be a very Guess thing to do. In fact, he could be thinking of this as him doing you a social favor when you did a faux pas by inviting yourself. But you didn't pick up on it, and then when you called Gabby, you made him look bad by having to reject you outright. This explains why he's pissed: he tried to do you a favor and not only did you not notice, you made him look bad.
I don't agree with this logic, personally. It doesn't strike me as a kind rejection even in Guess-land, it reeks of the reverse-victim-and-offender tactic in DARVO, and in general I think mature adults should be more straightforward in their communication. But that's my take on what's going on.
And it sounds like you value transparency and honesty in your friends! It hurts when friends lie to you. It's confusing when friends lie to you, ostensibly for your benefit. It's downright bewildering when friends get mad at you for not being grateful for their lie (seriously, ugh). Not only that, but they bring it up 6 months later (double ugh). I can see why you feel gaslit. You thought you were playing by the rules, when in fact the rules were completely different.
In my experience, when people say one thing but mean the opposite, I can tell because I feel funny when I hear it. My radar goes "something feels... off... about that" even if I don't know what it is yet. Either it doesn't make sense somehow (why is Gabby suddenly managing invitations to William's own birthday party?), or their body language is "too much" as if they're trying to cover up the lie (like suddenly smiling a little too widely or acting a little too friendly), or they stiffen up as they say it, or I just get a weird flutter in my stomach when I hear it. There's always some funny feeling. Pay attention to that feeling.
By the way, this? You thought you were playing by the rules, when in fact the rules were completely different. That's a classic experience for neurodivergent folks, who are likely to take a situation literally without catching the additional layers of context that are typically communicated through social cues and body language. And a common result of having that happen over and over again in life is some combination of RSD (Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria) and/or codependency and/or CPTSD. Here's the best explanation I've seen about it.
posted by danceswithlight at 9:37 PM on February 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Gaslighting is like "What? No, it's not hot in here. Maybe you have a fever or are losing touch with reality," all while knowing they had turned the thermostat up to 90 degrees.
The gaslighting here, to the extent there is any, is the (implicit or explicit) denial that he said to contact Gabby. If he said he didn't tell you to contact her, or if he implied he had no idea where you got that idea, that is some degree of gaslighting. But it sounds like he acknowledged saying it.
And his intent here isn't the intent that gaslighting has. This isn't "I will manipulate dubious_dude's environment and lie about my own perceptions to make them doubt their senses and question reality." This sounds like it's most likely "I communicated poorly but can't take responsibility for my part in the miscommunication and want to put all the blame on dubious_dude." Which is another form of suckiness, but I wouldn't call it gaslighting. It probably has a name, but I think of it as putting the blame on others, and I don't think it's great to hang out with people who can't see both sides and acknowledge their contribution to a problem.
The other possibility, just for completeness, is that maybe what he originally said did do a fairly good job of communicating and required only the most minor interpretation to see he wasn't actually saying to call her, and he's rightfully somewhat frustrated by the miscommunication. It doesn't sound like that, but I don't know how "lukewarm" he originally was and how he communicated the suggestion to call Gabby. Still, I would think he could still acknowledge that he played some part in the miscommunication.
Have you told him that you appreciate very direct and clear communication? I wonder if he could provide that if he knows it's helpful.
posted by slidell at 9:43 PM on February 9, 2023
The gaslighting here, to the extent there is any, is the (implicit or explicit) denial that he said to contact Gabby. If he said he didn't tell you to contact her, or if he implied he had no idea where you got that idea, that is some degree of gaslighting. But it sounds like he acknowledged saying it.
And his intent here isn't the intent that gaslighting has. This isn't "I will manipulate dubious_dude's environment and lie about my own perceptions to make them doubt their senses and question reality." This sounds like it's most likely "I communicated poorly but can't take responsibility for my part in the miscommunication and want to put all the blame on dubious_dude." Which is another form of suckiness, but I wouldn't call it gaslighting. It probably has a name, but I think of it as putting the blame on others, and I don't think it's great to hang out with people who can't see both sides and acknowledge their contribution to a problem.
The other possibility, just for completeness, is that maybe what he originally said did do a fairly good job of communicating and required only the most minor interpretation to see he wasn't actually saying to call her, and he's rightfully somewhat frustrated by the miscommunication. It doesn't sound like that, but I don't know how "lukewarm" he originally was and how he communicated the suggestion to call Gabby. Still, I would think he could still acknowledge that he played some part in the miscommunication.
Have you told him that you appreciate very direct and clear communication? I wonder if he could provide that if he knows it's helpful.
posted by slidell at 9:43 PM on February 9, 2023
Not gaslighting in the dictionary sense of the word.
Misleading, maybe... but also, how good are you at accepting "no" as an answer? Have you ever pushed for reasons or expressed confusion about a "no" rather than graciously moving on? Because if we want people to be direct we also need to make it easy for others to be direct with us.
Also, a good rule of thumb: Anything other than an enthusiastic "yes" is a NO.
And, very gently, have you considered taking a break from this friendship?
posted by M. at 11:11 PM on February 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
Misleading, maybe... but also, how good are you at accepting "no" as an answer? Have you ever pushed for reasons or expressed confusion about a "no" rather than graciously moving on? Because if we want people to be direct we also need to make it easy for others to be direct with us.
Also, a good rule of thumb: Anything other than an enthusiastic "yes" is a NO.
And, very gently, have you considered taking a break from this friendship?
posted by M. at 11:11 PM on February 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
It’s not gaslighting in the original, “useful because if has a specific meaning separate from just lying” sense, as others have noticed. But it does seem like the term is rapidly losing meaning as people use it to just mean “lying” or “saying something I disagree with.” So sure, probably someone somewhere would call this gaslighting. But I don’t think you should do so. It would be misleading.
He said you could do something, hoping and expecting you wouldn’t actually do it, and then got angry when you actually did, and it created awkwardness for him. Possibly he thought you would pick up some “this is a social nicety that I’m saying this but you shouldn’t actually do it” nonverbal cues. He didn’t tell you at the time that he was angry, but waited for it to pass and only brought it up later when he was apparently calmer about it.
None of that is actually gaslighting, but it’s a style of communication that clearly doesn’t work well for you, and you’re on very solid ground to be frustrated by it. If you have decided to keep this friendship going, you may want to do both of you a favor, and model clear communication in the process, by saying “I need you to understand that reading social cues is not a strength I have, and you can’t rely on me picking up if you say one thing and mean something else. You’ll save both of us a lot of frustration if you just say what you actually mean in a situation like that.”
posted by Stacey at 3:05 AM on February 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
He said you could do something, hoping and expecting you wouldn’t actually do it, and then got angry when you actually did, and it created awkwardness for him. Possibly he thought you would pick up some “this is a social nicety that I’m saying this but you shouldn’t actually do it” nonverbal cues. He didn’t tell you at the time that he was angry, but waited for it to pass and only brought it up later when he was apparently calmer about it.
None of that is actually gaslighting, but it’s a style of communication that clearly doesn’t work well for you, and you’re on very solid ground to be frustrated by it. If you have decided to keep this friendship going, you may want to do both of you a favor, and model clear communication in the process, by saying “I need you to understand that reading social cues is not a strength I have, and you can’t rely on me picking up if you say one thing and mean something else. You’ll save both of us a lot of frustration if you just say what you actually mean in a situation like that.”
posted by Stacey at 3:05 AM on February 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
I also question what's so great about this guy that makes you feel so bad you repeatedly turn to strangers to help you figure out how to deal with him/the emotional damage he's doing to you.
Relatedly, I'm deeply suspicious of guys who get real cagey about their friends meeting other friends. Makes me wonder how many of them he also has somewhat abusive (or at least dickish) relationships with.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:51 AM on February 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Relatedly, I'm deeply suspicious of guys who get real cagey about their friends meeting other friends. Makes me wonder how many of them he also has somewhat abusive (or at least dickish) relationships with.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:51 AM on February 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: He is Guess, you are Ask. Oil and water, which can be eventually emulsified but it takes a lot of work.
I don't see gaslighting in what you've said. He just plain didn't tell you how he felt or what he wanted. That's on him.
posted by Dashy at 5:38 AM on February 10, 2023
I don't see gaslighting in what you've said. He just plain didn't tell you how he felt or what he wanted. That's on him.
posted by Dashy at 5:38 AM on February 10, 2023
William rejected you and really hurt you. Why are you still having dinner with him?
Next 2 questions:
Who initiated this week’s dinner date?
Who paid more money for this dinner?
If the answer to either of those is “dubious dude” I think you should stop talking to this person - you’re being used by William.
If the answer is “William”, he’s still not a great friend for you, but at least he cares enough to initiate hangouts and pay your way once in a while, which points more to him being a big flake who personally I would still taper off friendship with.
Don’t go where you’re not enthusiastically invited. I mean this literally - don’t ask about axe throwing if you were not on the first round of guests invited - and I also mean it more figuratively - don’t pursue friendships with people who reject you in small ways.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:07 AM on February 10, 2023 [20 favorites]
Next 2 questions:
Who initiated this week’s dinner date?
Who paid more money for this dinner?
If the answer to either of those is “dubious dude” I think you should stop talking to this person - you’re being used by William.
If the answer is “William”, he’s still not a great friend for you, but at least he cares enough to initiate hangouts and pay your way once in a while, which points more to him being a big flake who personally I would still taper off friendship with.
Don’t go where you’re not enthusiastically invited. I mean this literally - don’t ask about axe throwing if you were not on the first round of guests invited - and I also mean it more figuratively - don’t pursue friendships with people who reject you in small ways.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:07 AM on February 10, 2023 [20 favorites]
Alternative reading, and I could be completely wrong: You're friends with benefits, right? I suspect William has a boyfriend/girlfriend or some relationship prospects that he values more highly and those are the people he invites to traditional friend/dating activities like parties or bar nights or bowling or Dungeons and Dragons or whatever it is that's fun in your circle.
He hangs out with you one-on-one to get the milk for free, so to speak, but he's not ever going to do anything with you where there's the chance he'd have to acknowledge you. Thus the insistence on "different social circles"--are you guys still in middle school?--and the disproportionate amount of anger at you for contacting Gabby. Yeah, maybe you should have read his signals better, but he's really strongly signaling that you are never to let other people know you have a link to him. The worst thing that happened to Gabby was that she was put in a mildly socially awkward situation--he shouldn't be that angry at you about this.
Anyway, I hate to say it but he's not really a friend, he's somebody who hangs out with you occasionally when he doesn't have anything better to do or possibly when he's horny.
posted by kingdead at 6:43 AM on February 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
He hangs out with you one-on-one to get the milk for free, so to speak, but he's not ever going to do anything with you where there's the chance he'd have to acknowledge you. Thus the insistence on "different social circles"--are you guys still in middle school?--and the disproportionate amount of anger at you for contacting Gabby. Yeah, maybe you should have read his signals better, but he's really strongly signaling that you are never to let other people know you have a link to him. The worst thing that happened to Gabby was that she was put in a mildly socially awkward situation--he shouldn't be that angry at you about this.
Anyway, I hate to say it but he's not really a friend, he's somebody who hangs out with you occasionally when he doesn't have anything better to do or possibly when he's horny.
posted by kingdead at 6:43 AM on February 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I agree with kingdead. Also, you said this in a reply on your last question about him:
I feel like we have a deeper friendship than just fuck buddies. We've had numerous deep conversations, and he's spilled his feelings to me about other various situations he had going on.
I think you're making a mistake in thinking that just because he poured his feelings out with you means that he really values your friendship. It's entirely possible that he does this for the exact opposite reason: he doesn't really care what you think about him and/or he doesn't intend to stay friends with you very long so he can just say whatever he wants. Also it's very possible for people with narcissistic tendencies to come across as being very vulnerable at times but it just doesn't really mean much. I'm not saying he's a narcissist, just pointing out that, for some people, having a deep conversation just doesn't mean much to them.
In the end, I think you're thinking about him way more than he thinks about you and that you are never going to have an equitable friendship with him. And it doesn't seem like you're ok with that. I would drop the rope and spend your time and energy with people that genuinely want to be around you.
posted by dawkins_7 at 7:37 AM on February 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
I feel like we have a deeper friendship than just fuck buddies. We've had numerous deep conversations, and he's spilled his feelings to me about other various situations he had going on.
I think you're making a mistake in thinking that just because he poured his feelings out with you means that he really values your friendship. It's entirely possible that he does this for the exact opposite reason: he doesn't really care what you think about him and/or he doesn't intend to stay friends with you very long so he can just say whatever he wants. Also it's very possible for people with narcissistic tendencies to come across as being very vulnerable at times but it just doesn't really mean much. I'm not saying he's a narcissist, just pointing out that, for some people, having a deep conversation just doesn't mean much to them.
In the end, I think you're thinking about him way more than he thinks about you and that you are never going to have an equitable friendship with him. And it doesn't seem like you're ok with that. I would drop the rope and spend your time and energy with people that genuinely want to be around you.
posted by dawkins_7 at 7:37 AM on February 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hey, remember how you said, "one of my goals this year is to finally break away from my people-pleasing tendencies,"? You set this goal so you could finally stop being in a pattern of giving a lot and getting little in return - a pattern which only erodes your self worth even further, making you that much more vulnerable to selfish jerks.
And now, the universe has given you a beautiful opportunity to absolutely knock it out of the park and make a huge step toward your goal! You can do it! You can throw away the poop milkshake. You know it's a poop milkshake. You've accepted it's a poop milkshake. You just have to take that final step of saying, 'You know what? I may be many things, but I'm not a person who drinks a milkshake with poop in it just because someone handed it to me.'
posted by Ausamor at 8:03 AM on February 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
And now, the universe has given you a beautiful opportunity to absolutely knock it out of the park and make a huge step toward your goal! You can do it! You can throw away the poop milkshake. You know it's a poop milkshake. You've accepted it's a poop milkshake. You just have to take that final step of saying, 'You know what? I may be many things, but I'm not a person who drinks a milkshake with poop in it just because someone handed it to me.'
posted by Ausamor at 8:03 AM on February 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: A lot of super helpful answers here. I'm glad it's established that this wasn't gaslighting, per se. I'm still trying to learn about certain behaviors and patterns, so all those responses were super helpful.
The bit that feels like gaslighting is where he's the one who did the shitty thing, but he's turning it around and making it feel like it's your fault. But this is common in abusive tactics, not just in gaslighting, but the term DARVO etc.
SPOT ON. In other words, poopshake behavior. I knew there was a specific way to explain why I felt so bothered, and gaslighting seemed to closely fit it, but this is much more specific and accurate.
It does appear that we're opposites — I'm definitely Ask, and he's definitely Guess. I can understand why he was a bit miffed off, though. It was just a bad situation all around.
Reflecting upon this, I do realize that I really don't get much value out of this friendship, other than some feel-good bits (conversation and sex-wise), and like many of you noted, I often am left feeling bad or weird. It's not healthy. I think the best solution is just to scale back and slowly fade. I initiated our get-together earlier this week because I felt things were lingering and wanted to get things cleared up/resolved (and to see him). Which ultimately... happened. We had a nice time other than that blip, but I'm tired of being a people pleaser and walking on eggshells around him. I've seen him talk about other people in a poor manner, so I know he has some trust issues and other traumas. Yeah, I think just scaling back and no longer initiating stuff is probably the best course. Maybe if he initiates, I'll do coffee or something quick and simple, keep it cordial, like each other's SM posts. Nothing more. I'll always love him, but poopshakes no longer will get such a central, special place in my life.
posted by dubious_dude at 9:12 AM on February 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
The bit that feels like gaslighting is where he's the one who did the shitty thing, but he's turning it around and making it feel like it's your fault. But this is common in abusive tactics, not just in gaslighting, but the term DARVO etc.
SPOT ON. In other words, poopshake behavior. I knew there was a specific way to explain why I felt so bothered, and gaslighting seemed to closely fit it, but this is much more specific and accurate.
It does appear that we're opposites — I'm definitely Ask, and he's definitely Guess. I can understand why he was a bit miffed off, though. It was just a bad situation all around.
Reflecting upon this, I do realize that I really don't get much value out of this friendship, other than some feel-good bits (conversation and sex-wise), and like many of you noted, I often am left feeling bad or weird. It's not healthy. I think the best solution is just to scale back and slowly fade. I initiated our get-together earlier this week because I felt things were lingering and wanted to get things cleared up/resolved (and to see him). Which ultimately... happened. We had a nice time other than that blip, but I'm tired of being a people pleaser and walking on eggshells around him. I've seen him talk about other people in a poor manner, so I know he has some trust issues and other traumas. Yeah, I think just scaling back and no longer initiating stuff is probably the best course. Maybe if he initiates, I'll do coffee or something quick and simple, keep it cordial, like each other's SM posts. Nothing more. I'll always love him, but poopshakes no longer will get such a central, special place in my life.
posted by dubious_dude at 9:12 AM on February 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
The whole idea behind the "poop milkshake" analogy is that HE is the milkshake with poop in it, and being friends with him is the equivalent of drinking a milkshake with poop in it. I.E., not something you would ever want to do.
Whether he was technically gaslighting you in the situation is not the point. I mean, I know you want to know, but why? Why do you want to drink, understand, examine, a milkshake that has poop in it? Just throw it in the trash.
posted by bearette at 12:42 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Whether he was technically gaslighting you in the situation is not the point. I mean, I know you want to know, but why? Why do you want to drink, understand, examine, a milkshake that has poop in it? Just throw it in the trash.
posted by bearette at 12:42 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I think your course of action going forward is great. I hope you can pay more attention in future to how you're feeling - that despite the good parts, if you're feeling bad and weird, that's a sign this person's friendship/relationship isn't good for you. If you feel bad and weird, don't dismiss it as "I'm not giving them a chance" "This isn't a big deal" "I'm being too picky" or whatever. You have a gut for a reason, listen to it.
Also keeping in mind for the future: William was a FWB and you also said that he didn't like his friend groups to mix. For me, I didn't tell anyone about my FWBs. Maybe that's bad from a safety perspective, but I guess I'm generally a private person about these things. And honestly? My FWBs were good for sex and conversation, but not for mixing in with my friends. That would have been super awkward. So I wonder if William was thinking something similar. From that point of view, I can see why he didn't want you to go to his birthday. He only wanted to interact with you 1:1; he didn't want to be in a social situation with you. And it's not because you're not good enough, etc. He just didn't want that type of relationship with you. Yes, it would have been great if he was upfront about all that, but people are bad communicators and there are just some conversations that are way too awkward. Saying to you "I only want to see you every so often when I feel like it for conversations and sex and I don't want to be social with you and my friends" is not something people say.
I agree with others who said that having deep conversations doesn't mean someone is a good friend, as weird as that sounds. I think you wanted more from this relationship with William than he was willing to give. And you always have to be mindful of if you or the other person wants more, no matter what type of relationship it is - friendship, FWB, hookup, dating relationship etc.
About the birthday specifically - you mentioned in your last post "during our 1:1 birthday dinner, at one point, we talked about his other birthday plans... he suggested I reach out to "Gabby" and ask about joining, as she was the one coordinating the whole event. The axe throwing event would be tonight. He didn't seem instantly eager/energetic for me to come (although he's generally "lukewarm" about things, which I've gotten used to), but did suggest reaching out to Gabby, so there seemed to be no friction there."
You say you're bad at reading signals, but I don't think you are. You noted that he didn't seem eager for you to come. I think you DO pick up on signals; you just don't want to believe them. Instead, you rely very much on what people say and interpret it to the letter, ignoring the subtle cues/body language that you ARE picking up on.
I'm also wondering how his suggestion that you reach out to Gabby came about? You were both talking about his other birthday plans, was it something like this:
You: "What else are you doing for your birthday?
Him: "Oh, me and a few friends are going axe throwing tonight at [place]."
You: "Oh I know that place, it's great. I've been there before."
At this point did you ask directly if you could come, or was there some kind of awkward silence where it seemed like you wanted an invitation? Cuz I'm wondering how the next part came about:
Him: "You should contact Gabby and ask if you can join."
Anyway, this is all in the past now and maybe not worth it to mull over. We already know that William isn't a good friend and you're moving on from him. I only bring this up because I wonder about your part in ending up in these weird and disappointing situations. On the one hand yes, get better friends who want the type of friendship that you do, but for other friends, I wonder if there's a better way to be more aware of how you might be contributing to these disappointing situations. I'm not trying to blame you at all - I'm just saying be aware of what you want from people, and also what they're interested in having from you.
posted by foxjacket at 4:07 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also keeping in mind for the future: William was a FWB and you also said that he didn't like his friend groups to mix. For me, I didn't tell anyone about my FWBs. Maybe that's bad from a safety perspective, but I guess I'm generally a private person about these things. And honestly? My FWBs were good for sex and conversation, but not for mixing in with my friends. That would have been super awkward. So I wonder if William was thinking something similar. From that point of view, I can see why he didn't want you to go to his birthday. He only wanted to interact with you 1:1; he didn't want to be in a social situation with you. And it's not because you're not good enough, etc. He just didn't want that type of relationship with you. Yes, it would have been great if he was upfront about all that, but people are bad communicators and there are just some conversations that are way too awkward. Saying to you "I only want to see you every so often when I feel like it for conversations and sex and I don't want to be social with you and my friends" is not something people say.
I agree with others who said that having deep conversations doesn't mean someone is a good friend, as weird as that sounds. I think you wanted more from this relationship with William than he was willing to give. And you always have to be mindful of if you or the other person wants more, no matter what type of relationship it is - friendship, FWB, hookup, dating relationship etc.
About the birthday specifically - you mentioned in your last post "during our 1:1 birthday dinner, at one point, we talked about his other birthday plans... he suggested I reach out to "Gabby" and ask about joining, as she was the one coordinating the whole event. The axe throwing event would be tonight. He didn't seem instantly eager/energetic for me to come (although he's generally "lukewarm" about things, which I've gotten used to), but did suggest reaching out to Gabby, so there seemed to be no friction there."
You say you're bad at reading signals, but I don't think you are. You noted that he didn't seem eager for you to come. I think you DO pick up on signals; you just don't want to believe them. Instead, you rely very much on what people say and interpret it to the letter, ignoring the subtle cues/body language that you ARE picking up on.
I'm also wondering how his suggestion that you reach out to Gabby came about? You were both talking about his other birthday plans, was it something like this:
You: "What else are you doing for your birthday?
Him: "Oh, me and a few friends are going axe throwing tonight at [place]."
You: "Oh I know that place, it's great. I've been there before."
At this point did you ask directly if you could come, or was there some kind of awkward silence where it seemed like you wanted an invitation? Cuz I'm wondering how the next part came about:
Him: "You should contact Gabby and ask if you can join."
Anyway, this is all in the past now and maybe not worth it to mull over. We already know that William isn't a good friend and you're moving on from him. I only bring this up because I wonder about your part in ending up in these weird and disappointing situations. On the one hand yes, get better friends who want the type of friendship that you do, but for other friends, I wonder if there's a better way to be more aware of how you might be contributing to these disappointing situations. I'm not trying to blame you at all - I'm just saying be aware of what you want from people, and also what they're interested in having from you.
posted by foxjacket at 4:07 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Hey, man. You ask this question a lot. Not with all the same details every time. But this is like the tenth time you've asked a question that boils down to "I've spent hours/days/weeks obsessed with a social interaction where I fear someone let me down. Could you help me spend more days/weeks/months stewing in that same question?"
The question you should have asked is something more like "do you have advice for letting shit go?"
Of *course* that's going to be easier said than done. But one answer is this.
First, simply acknowledge to yourself that you err way, way too far toward the "dwell on everything forever" side of the spectrum.
Then take a step to adjust for that problem. Actively work to internalize the idea "I err on the side of dwelling on stuff. Whatever's currently on my mind, I should probably see what happens if I let myself disregard it. I bet it works out fine."
Recite that to yourself. Write it on an index card and keep it in your wallet. Copy it out longhand every night before you go to bed. Tattoo it on your forearm. Carve it into the ceiling above your bed.
Don't rule out talking to a psychiatrist about it.
If you can pull it off, 80% of the problems that feel insurmountable in your life are going to melt and disappear, and you are going to realize they were never there to begin with.
posted by foursentences at 10:33 PM on February 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
The question you should have asked is something more like "do you have advice for letting shit go?"
Of *course* that's going to be easier said than done. But one answer is this.
First, simply acknowledge to yourself that you err way, way too far toward the "dwell on everything forever" side of the spectrum.
Then take a step to adjust for that problem. Actively work to internalize the idea "I err on the side of dwelling on stuff. Whatever's currently on my mind, I should probably see what happens if I let myself disregard it. I bet it works out fine."
Recite that to yourself. Write it on an index card and keep it in your wallet. Copy it out longhand every night before you go to bed. Tattoo it on your forearm. Carve it into the ceiling above your bed.
Don't rule out talking to a psychiatrist about it.
If you can pull it off, 80% of the problems that feel insurmountable in your life are going to melt and disappear, and you are going to realize they were never there to begin with.
posted by foursentences at 10:33 PM on February 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'll always love him
Given enough time, you may find this won't even be the case. You don't have to anticipate the cutoff hurting. It could well be liberating.
posted by Miko at 1:17 PM on February 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Given enough time, you may find this won't even be the case. You don't have to anticipate the cutoff hurting. It could well be liberating.
posted by Miko at 1:17 PM on February 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Got a lot of helpful answers here.
What answers did you apply to this situation?
posted by mermaidcafe at 9:28 PM on February 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
What answers did you apply to this situation?
posted by mermaidcafe at 9:28 PM on February 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
If you've accepted that your communication with William is not going to be great (regardless of who is at fault), as your last paragraph implies, you really need to get to a less emotionally-entwined place with him. This is too much thought and perseverating for something that happened six months ago.
posted by sagc at 7:07 PM on February 9, 2023 [22 favorites]