Breakup, and Sacrifice vs. Compromise in Happy Relationships
January 14, 2023 1:27 PM Subscribe
Boyfriend (M/55) and I (F/34) were together for 5 months, recently decided to take a break for some self-work. We've still been maintaining contact and spending time together. Sacrifice vs. compromise was brought up yesterday, and I need a perspective check. Ended things with him after realizing that I'm still processing a previous breakup, and feel immoral being in a relationship in the interim. Currently grappling with the fact that I may have made too sudden a decision, that perhaps our values do align, and that after a break with no contact, things could be different. Several questions below!
During the conversation, we spoke a great deal about the book "Attached" (thank you to everyone who recommended this). I've since read it, lent it to him, and he's almost finished with it. I've also shared articles with him from Mark Manson's website, and verbally shared my interest with him in Emotion-Focused Therapy (EFT) despite being in "traditional" therapy myself at the moment. He's been open and willingly accepting of these resources, and is genuinely researching them. He feels increasingly disappointed in the reality of his Avoidant attachment style, however, and was mindblown that he's spent the majority of his life not knowing any of this or thinking to look into it until I shared the resources with him. He seems hesitant to give "traditional" therapy another attempt, as the one therapist he clicked with (5+ years ago) relocated his practice and couldn't keep the same patients. My ex has tried other therapists as well, but has found it challenging to practice self-acceptance without feeling that he's achieved/produced something first. He's mentioned most therapists viewing it in this order, rather than accomplishing something and then accepting oneself. He's found it very difficult to accept himself as he is first and foremost, and feels this is what's holding him back in many ways in his life.
This transitioned into us talking about sacrifice vs. compromise in relationships. He stated that as he's spoken with more happily married couples, they've all mentioned sacrifice for the betterment of the marriage itself. I brought up my perspective that "sacrifice" entails giving up a piece of yourself and who you are, whereas "compromise" involves finding a common ground, and not giving up any parts of yourself. He agreed, but his perspective is that sacrificing a part of yourself- similar to an altar in a church- is a noble act, and he feels it would be necessary for him to do in a marriage in order to better it. My perspective is that neither person should have to give up a part of who they are long-term, whether it be for another person, or for an entity such as a marriage. Rather, there should be compromises and learning what the other person wants/needs, and finding ways to fulfill those needs for them. But if this involves one extricating a piece of themself, that doesn't seem healthy. To me, that seems more like contorting oneself in order to stay with someone else. Is my perspective unrealistic on this? He considers himself to be a Puritan, and has views and expectations for himself on certain things that others may consider "extreme" (is a self-proclaimed orthorexic and "health nut", has been forcing himself to sleep with the windows open in his house because he read that a cold environment helps you sleep better, goes all-or-nothing with alcohol and gives it up for months, then has 4-5 drinks on average at once, etc.). I was this way in my late teens/early 20's, and it ultimately chipped away at my happiness. Does this lifestyle work for some people, though? Are they truly happy?
After our conversation transitioned into past relationships yesterday, I ultimately decided to end things with my ex. I told him that while in therapy that day, I mentioned that I was writing an apology letter to an ex-fiance whom I was with for 5+ years prior to meeting my most recent ex-boyfriend. One of the reasons I broke up with that person was because there was no longer any sexual desire or intimacy expressed towards me from him, and I thought I was "broken" and undesirable sexually. This is a need I have in a relationship, but I didn't realize at the time that it was that simple to just express that. So instead, I suddenly ended the relationship, and joined a dating site where I casually met people for sex, because I needed to know that I wasn't "broken". It was a cruel thing to do, but I've since accepted that I did it, hence the apology letter. However, my most recent ex and I met on that site. We initially connected for that reason, and then soon realized that we were emotionally attached and wanted to see where things could go in a relationship.
I've since worked on my issue with using sex as validation. I can admit now that that's what I was doing, and I've moved past that and have found healthier ways to find that (starting with getting it from myself and looking inward). But when my most recent ex and I were about 2 months into the relationship, I went to a friend's wedding that my ex-fiance was also at (we'd already planned to attend prior to breaking up, and the friends were mutual between us, so we both ended up still going albeit separately). Just before leaving my hotel room to go to the wedding, my ex-boyfriend texted me saying, "Remember not to get drunk and sleep with your ex!" I felt the color leave my entire body, and gut-wrenching pain ensue. There have seldom been occurrences where a partner has upset me so much, but this was one of them. We spoke on the phone about it, and he said it was a joke (please see my previous questions for his sense of humor, vastly different from my own). He said that there's also a kernel of truth to it, because weddings are places where women notoriously feel more amorous, and people end up doing things (with exes) after having too much to drink, that they may not otherwise do. They realize feelings are still there, or they're aroused. The way he said this was so matter-of-fact, as if people just go around doing this type of thing at weddings frequently. Is this the case? I asked him if he's ever done that or thinks he would, and he immediately said he hasn't and wouldn't. But he said that it's still a possibility, and people can never be 100% certain about what they would or wouldn't do under given circumstances.
The worst part about all of this is that after I speak with him, I realize what he's saying makes sense, actually. I've since changed my perspective on some things, especially the "100% certainty" notion in a previous question. My views on relationships were too "romantic" previously, and I've recognized and changed that for the better. I just don't know if the comment above (about sleeping with exes) is another one of these cases? I've spoken with friends and family about this comment, and they've unanimously stated that it's inappropriate and not something you should say to your partner (even "gross" from one heterosexual male friend). Hearing this from others has made me realize that while some of our values do align, it seems that others are simply part of our respective personalities that, if we changed, would no longer be true to ourselves.
This post seems a bit scattered, but my takeaway questions here are:
(1) If you've ever been (or currently are) in a relationship wherein you have different love languages and/or values, how have you come to a compromise to ensure the other person's happiness while still remaining true to yourself?
(2) If you have been (or currently are) in a happy and healthy long-term relationship, which of these do you believe has been necessary to nourish it: sacrifice or compromise?
(3) If you've endured a breakup due to a difference in values, when did you finally reach the point where you realized, "I've tried to be open and change my perspective for this person, and they've done the same for me, but ultimately our values just don't align and we're incompatible"?
(4) He's said he wants to work on himself, but I've been the one finding and sharing all of the resources (which he has been open to receiving and researching). Should I be waiting for him to pursue therapy again, though? And if this hasn't worked for him ultimately, wouldn't that just be me pushing my own value on him as to what "self-work" looks like (therapy), when there could actually be a different method for him to achieve the things he wants within himself?
(5) Hypothetically speaking, if we stayed in a relationship, and he found a therapist and pursued this tomorrow, I would still need to wait for him to "change" enough to fulfill certain needs of mine (being more physically expressive, wanting to hold my hand in public, expressing a sexual desire for me like he used to, etc.). This would take time, of course. But this would also be time that I could be spending either being single, or even pursuing someone who I knew already possessed those traits and could meet my needs immediately. Am I a bad person for not wanting to wait on this?
(6) My attachment style is Secure (scored second-highest and quite close in Anxious). My ex-fiance was Secure. Almost every other relationship I've been in has been with an Avoidant style, which have all resulted in me "grasping" at some point in the relationship for affection, attention, reciprocation, etc. Why do I continue to pursue these relationships? I may have a "Savior"/"Fixer" tendency, and am not sure why; could this be connected?
(7) While the Honeymoon Phase absolutely exists, I've always found myself still being excited to see my partner, missing them when they're not there, and desiring them sexually, long after this phase ends. This has only been "reciprocated" once, with my ex-fiance. Am I an anomaly for sort of... Staying in the Honeymoon Phase? Is it natural for the other person's desire for me to taper off so much after this phase that they seem lukewarm about seeing me (when it's convenient for them), and not missing or thinking about me when we're not together? I feel like an alien for having felt this way about others, and then rejected/hurt every single time because it isn't reciprocated after [insert completely unpredictable and blindsidingly sudden timeframe here].
During the conversation, we spoke a great deal about the book "Attached" (thank you to everyone who recommended this). I've since read it, lent it to him, and he's almost finished with it. I've also shared articles with him from Mark Manson's website, and verbally shared my interest with him in Emotion-Focused Therapy (EFT) despite being in "traditional" therapy myself at the moment. He's been open and willingly accepting of these resources, and is genuinely researching them. He feels increasingly disappointed in the reality of his Avoidant attachment style, however, and was mindblown that he's spent the majority of his life not knowing any of this or thinking to look into it until I shared the resources with him. He seems hesitant to give "traditional" therapy another attempt, as the one therapist he clicked with (5+ years ago) relocated his practice and couldn't keep the same patients. My ex has tried other therapists as well, but has found it challenging to practice self-acceptance without feeling that he's achieved/produced something first. He's mentioned most therapists viewing it in this order, rather than accomplishing something and then accepting oneself. He's found it very difficult to accept himself as he is first and foremost, and feels this is what's holding him back in many ways in his life.
This transitioned into us talking about sacrifice vs. compromise in relationships. He stated that as he's spoken with more happily married couples, they've all mentioned sacrifice for the betterment of the marriage itself. I brought up my perspective that "sacrifice" entails giving up a piece of yourself and who you are, whereas "compromise" involves finding a common ground, and not giving up any parts of yourself. He agreed, but his perspective is that sacrificing a part of yourself- similar to an altar in a church- is a noble act, and he feels it would be necessary for him to do in a marriage in order to better it. My perspective is that neither person should have to give up a part of who they are long-term, whether it be for another person, or for an entity such as a marriage. Rather, there should be compromises and learning what the other person wants/needs, and finding ways to fulfill those needs for them. But if this involves one extricating a piece of themself, that doesn't seem healthy. To me, that seems more like contorting oneself in order to stay with someone else. Is my perspective unrealistic on this? He considers himself to be a Puritan, and has views and expectations for himself on certain things that others may consider "extreme" (is a self-proclaimed orthorexic and "health nut", has been forcing himself to sleep with the windows open in his house because he read that a cold environment helps you sleep better, goes all-or-nothing with alcohol and gives it up for months, then has 4-5 drinks on average at once, etc.). I was this way in my late teens/early 20's, and it ultimately chipped away at my happiness. Does this lifestyle work for some people, though? Are they truly happy?
After our conversation transitioned into past relationships yesterday, I ultimately decided to end things with my ex. I told him that while in therapy that day, I mentioned that I was writing an apology letter to an ex-fiance whom I was with for 5+ years prior to meeting my most recent ex-boyfriend. One of the reasons I broke up with that person was because there was no longer any sexual desire or intimacy expressed towards me from him, and I thought I was "broken" and undesirable sexually. This is a need I have in a relationship, but I didn't realize at the time that it was that simple to just express that. So instead, I suddenly ended the relationship, and joined a dating site where I casually met people for sex, because I needed to know that I wasn't "broken". It was a cruel thing to do, but I've since accepted that I did it, hence the apology letter. However, my most recent ex and I met on that site. We initially connected for that reason, and then soon realized that we were emotionally attached and wanted to see where things could go in a relationship.
I've since worked on my issue with using sex as validation. I can admit now that that's what I was doing, and I've moved past that and have found healthier ways to find that (starting with getting it from myself and looking inward). But when my most recent ex and I were about 2 months into the relationship, I went to a friend's wedding that my ex-fiance was also at (we'd already planned to attend prior to breaking up, and the friends were mutual between us, so we both ended up still going albeit separately). Just before leaving my hotel room to go to the wedding, my ex-boyfriend texted me saying, "Remember not to get drunk and sleep with your ex!" I felt the color leave my entire body, and gut-wrenching pain ensue. There have seldom been occurrences where a partner has upset me so much, but this was one of them. We spoke on the phone about it, and he said it was a joke (please see my previous questions for his sense of humor, vastly different from my own). He said that there's also a kernel of truth to it, because weddings are places where women notoriously feel more amorous, and people end up doing things (with exes) after having too much to drink, that they may not otherwise do. They realize feelings are still there, or they're aroused. The way he said this was so matter-of-fact, as if people just go around doing this type of thing at weddings frequently. Is this the case? I asked him if he's ever done that or thinks he would, and he immediately said he hasn't and wouldn't. But he said that it's still a possibility, and people can never be 100% certain about what they would or wouldn't do under given circumstances.
The worst part about all of this is that after I speak with him, I realize what he's saying makes sense, actually. I've since changed my perspective on some things, especially the "100% certainty" notion in a previous question. My views on relationships were too "romantic" previously, and I've recognized and changed that for the better. I just don't know if the comment above (about sleeping with exes) is another one of these cases? I've spoken with friends and family about this comment, and they've unanimously stated that it's inappropriate and not something you should say to your partner (even "gross" from one heterosexual male friend). Hearing this from others has made me realize that while some of our values do align, it seems that others are simply part of our respective personalities that, if we changed, would no longer be true to ourselves.
This post seems a bit scattered, but my takeaway questions here are:
(1) If you've ever been (or currently are) in a relationship wherein you have different love languages and/or values, how have you come to a compromise to ensure the other person's happiness while still remaining true to yourself?
(2) If you have been (or currently are) in a happy and healthy long-term relationship, which of these do you believe has been necessary to nourish it: sacrifice or compromise?
(3) If you've endured a breakup due to a difference in values, when did you finally reach the point where you realized, "I've tried to be open and change my perspective for this person, and they've done the same for me, but ultimately our values just don't align and we're incompatible"?
(4) He's said he wants to work on himself, but I've been the one finding and sharing all of the resources (which he has been open to receiving and researching). Should I be waiting for him to pursue therapy again, though? And if this hasn't worked for him ultimately, wouldn't that just be me pushing my own value on him as to what "self-work" looks like (therapy), when there could actually be a different method for him to achieve the things he wants within himself?
(5) Hypothetically speaking, if we stayed in a relationship, and he found a therapist and pursued this tomorrow, I would still need to wait for him to "change" enough to fulfill certain needs of mine (being more physically expressive, wanting to hold my hand in public, expressing a sexual desire for me like he used to, etc.). This would take time, of course. But this would also be time that I could be spending either being single, or even pursuing someone who I knew already possessed those traits and could meet my needs immediately. Am I a bad person for not wanting to wait on this?
(6) My attachment style is Secure (scored second-highest and quite close in Anxious). My ex-fiance was Secure. Almost every other relationship I've been in has been with an Avoidant style, which have all resulted in me "grasping" at some point in the relationship for affection, attention, reciprocation, etc. Why do I continue to pursue these relationships? I may have a "Savior"/"Fixer" tendency, and am not sure why; could this be connected?
(7) While the Honeymoon Phase absolutely exists, I've always found myself still being excited to see my partner, missing them when they're not there, and desiring them sexually, long after this phase ends. This has only been "reciprocated" once, with my ex-fiance. Am I an anomaly for sort of... Staying in the Honeymoon Phase? Is it natural for the other person's desire for me to taper off so much after this phase that they seem lukewarm about seeing me (when it's convenient for them), and not missing or thinking about me when we're not together? I feel like an alien for having felt this way about others, and then rejected/hurt every single time because it isn't reciprocated after [insert completely unpredictable and blindsidingly sudden timeframe here].
He’s 55, he is who he is! And you were together 5 months and were arguing for most of them— I really don’t see why on earth your approach now is assigning him a curriculum and therapy like you can force him to become someone else.
Cutting your losses and processing all your relationship issues on your own, then finding someone who’s actually compatible is an option, you know.
All your posts about this relationship are circuitous and frankly exhausting to read. This is not a criticism of you, but it just doesn’t seem worth this level of analysis. If it were the right relationship for both of you it wouldn’t require endless relitigation.
posted by kapers at 2:11 PM on January 14, 2023 [93 favorites]
Cutting your losses and processing all your relationship issues on your own, then finding someone who’s actually compatible is an option, you know.
All your posts about this relationship are circuitous and frankly exhausting to read. This is not a criticism of you, but it just doesn’t seem worth this level of analysis. If it were the right relationship for both of you it wouldn’t require endless relitigation.
posted by kapers at 2:11 PM on January 14, 2023 [93 favorites]
The compromise vs sacrifice question seems like a semantic argument, and arguing about it theoretically seems like torture/a trap.
I think it’s general knowledge that all successful relationships require compromise and sacrificing things you may want and even changing a bit for the good of the relationship. A relationship where these compromises and sacrifices and changes chip away at your happiness is not a good one; a relationship where those things serve to increase your overall fulfillment and happiness is a good one.
posted by kapers at 2:23 PM on January 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think it’s general knowledge that all successful relationships require compromise and sacrificing things you may want and even changing a bit for the good of the relationship. A relationship where these compromises and sacrifices and changes chip away at your happiness is not a good one; a relationship where those things serve to increase your overall fulfillment and happiness is a good one.
posted by kapers at 2:23 PM on January 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Honestly, relationships can be a lot easier and happier than this.
posted by lokta at 2:32 PM on January 14, 2023 [31 favorites]
posted by lokta at 2:32 PM on January 14, 2023 [31 favorites]
If you have been (or currently are) in a happy and healthy long-term relationship, which of these do you believe has been necessary to nourish it: sacrifice or compromise?
(Married 32 years, together 35): Both, from both of us. But we don't think of it as some kind of contest. There's no winning or losing involved, just navigating our way through life together.
For goodness sake, let this relationship go. I've read your other questions and people have given you this answer many times, in many ways. Listen to us, or please stop asking.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 2:35 PM on January 14, 2023 [44 favorites]
(Married 32 years, together 35): Both, from both of us. But we don't think of it as some kind of contest. There's no winning or losing involved, just navigating our way through life together.
For goodness sake, let this relationship go. I've read your other questions and people have given you this answer many times, in many ways. Listen to us, or please stop asking.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 2:35 PM on January 14, 2023 [44 favorites]
Thinking of your past questions...you guys like to get into word arguments to cover up that you aren't happy with each other.
But I'll take a few of your questions just from my perspective:
1. My spouse and I have different styles but we have the same values. Love languages are easy. Having a severely disabled child on life support is hard. There's a whole lot of life in between.
2. Joy. We've each compromised and sometimes we've had situations you can't compromise about so one person has to back down. But ALL of the choices had joy for both people.
4. If you have to give someone a laundry list of therapy items five months into a relationship, it's not good.
6. You need to get happy ON YOUR OWN.
7. We still light up seeing each other.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:38 PM on January 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
But I'll take a few of your questions just from my perspective:
1. My spouse and I have different styles but we have the same values. Love languages are easy. Having a severely disabled child on life support is hard. There's a whole lot of life in between.
2. Joy. We've each compromised and sometimes we've had situations you can't compromise about so one person has to back down. But ALL of the choices had joy for both people.
4. If you have to give someone a laundry list of therapy items five months into a relationship, it's not good.
6. You need to get happy ON YOUR OWN.
7. We still light up seeing each other.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:38 PM on January 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
The “remember not to get drunk and sleep with your ex!” comment would have been gross and childish from a 28-year-old: your ex is 55. Your ex feels he has to achieve things before he can accept himself. Your ex cycles between self-denial and excess, and seems to think that orthorexia is a perfectly cool and fine thing to have, as opposed to a disordered way of relating to food and exercise. It sounds as though your ex’s libido waned within *five months* of beginning to date. Your ex discussed with you in earnest that he does not believe in compromise, only sacrifice.
Where do your values align with this person?
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 2:38 PM on January 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
Where do your values align with this person?
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 2:38 PM on January 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
You’re so close! Finish breaking up with this person who won’t change and keep doing this work with yourself.
posted by chiquitita at 3:11 PM on January 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by chiquitita at 3:11 PM on January 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
This guy is exhausting. Your relationship with him is exhausting. Your regular squabbles about who is right about the exact interpretation of word meanings is exhausting and seems like a distraction from your actual issues.
He's unkind to you. You have a high need for certainty in some areas where he is never going to give it to you and he has weirdly fixed certainties in other areas that are frankly gross and misogynistic. Your questions are almost all beside the basic point that *you two don't seem to like each other very much*. I think you should throw out all these questions and *actually* break up .
But okay.
1. I don't stay in relationships with people I have very different values from, so that's a moot point. But on the love language front I haven't found this to be be a big deal. I take note of things my partner likes and make sure to do them sometimes even if they're not necessarily the most natural thing in the world for me, and vice versa. It's minor and easy, because I love him and like him to feel loved in ways that are meaningful to him. He does the same for me.
2. I think you're both fighting over a mostly silly distinction, frankly. But if you want to make it then I'd say over the 23 years of my current relationship, sometimes it's sacrifice and sometimes it's compromise. Quite often it's just saying " hey, you care about this much more, let's do it your way and when it's something I really care about we'll do it mine" and trusting that it balances out over a lifetime, and I don't know which of your options that would be. I don't think it's realistic to think you'll be in a long term relationship and never sacrifice.
3. It was a repeated infidelity thing, it was pretty straightforward.
4. Yes, it sounds like you're doing too much here. If he wants to do self work he'll do it when it becomes important enough for him. I think you should stop pushing books and theories at him.
5. I think it's much kinder to let someone go than to try to mold them into an essentially different person that you wish they were.
7. There's a huge spectrum between Honeymoon Phase and "doesn't care if they ever see me or talk to me." I think most long term couples eventually end up somewhere in that vast middle, hopefully closer to the former. You deserve someone who stays excited about your presence in his life.
posted by Stacey at 3:15 PM on January 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
He's unkind to you. You have a high need for certainty in some areas where he is never going to give it to you and he has weirdly fixed certainties in other areas that are frankly gross and misogynistic. Your questions are almost all beside the basic point that *you two don't seem to like each other very much*. I think you should throw out all these questions and *actually* break up .
But okay.
1. I don't stay in relationships with people I have very different values from, so that's a moot point. But on the love language front I haven't found this to be be a big deal. I take note of things my partner likes and make sure to do them sometimes even if they're not necessarily the most natural thing in the world for me, and vice versa. It's minor and easy, because I love him and like him to feel loved in ways that are meaningful to him. He does the same for me.
2. I think you're both fighting over a mostly silly distinction, frankly. But if you want to make it then I'd say over the 23 years of my current relationship, sometimes it's sacrifice and sometimes it's compromise. Quite often it's just saying " hey, you care about this much more, let's do it your way and when it's something I really care about we'll do it mine" and trusting that it balances out over a lifetime, and I don't know which of your options that would be. I don't think it's realistic to think you'll be in a long term relationship and never sacrifice.
3. It was a repeated infidelity thing, it was pretty straightforward.
4. Yes, it sounds like you're doing too much here. If he wants to do self work he'll do it when it becomes important enough for him. I think you should stop pushing books and theories at him.
5. I think it's much kinder to let someone go than to try to mold them into an essentially different person that you wish they were.
7. There's a huge spectrum between Honeymoon Phase and "doesn't care if they ever see me or talk to me." I think most long term couples eventually end up somewhere in that vast middle, hopefully closer to the former. You deserve someone who stays excited about your presence in his life.
posted by Stacey at 3:15 PM on January 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
I would still need to wait for him to "change" enough to fulfill certain needs of mine
This is not going to happen. You are not right for each other.
posted by Glinn at 3:40 PM on January 14, 2023 [21 favorites]
This is not going to happen. You are not right for each other.
posted by Glinn at 3:40 PM on January 14, 2023 [21 favorites]
1. I never bothered to learn what the heck love language are, and somehow have managed to have a very loving and happy marriage. My husband, who never wanted gifts or romantic gestures was brilliant enough to know I liked flowers and buy them for our anniversary. No problem. Values are totally different, if I was with someone who, for example, treated people badly, I would not want to be with them. You are convoluting these things.
2. This compromise/sacrifice discussion sounds like a colossal waste of time. What really is the difference? Was it a sacrifice of my time when I went to boring in-law events? I guess we compromised and decided we’d both go to each other’s family major family events, or was it a mutual sacrifice? There are times when someone is not going to get to do what they want. That does not automatically mean they are giving up part of their identity. And no--you don't need to compromise on wanting to feel desired, which it sounds like you might be the question.
3. I knew for far too long before I broke up with old ex. That is why I feel you know this already and are struggling to come up with all sorts of plans and schemes to avoid leaving him.
4. Stop trying to fix him. If he is happy being a Puritan, great for him. If he is unhappy being a Puritan, that is his problem, not yours.
5. He will not become what you want.
6. You are in therapy, keep working on these issues. In my simple read, you are just afraid to be alone.
7. Please read this paragraph over again, why are you still with him? No, it is not normal for a person to be lukewarm to their beloved.
I think you know all of this.
Regarding the wedding: People hooking up at weddings is not unheard of, with exes or the bridesmaid from out of town, etc.. But your guy puts a pretty sexist slant to it….. people of both genders get drunk and horny and have sex sometimes. His comment was not funny to you, and you did not like it. You don't need to debate it, he should have said he was sorry.
I think you come up with these questions to avoid admitting you just aren’t a good match. If you like holding hands in public, find someone who will do that with you.
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 3:45 PM on January 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
2. This compromise/sacrifice discussion sounds like a colossal waste of time. What really is the difference? Was it a sacrifice of my time when I went to boring in-law events? I guess we compromised and decided we’d both go to each other’s family major family events, or was it a mutual sacrifice? There are times when someone is not going to get to do what they want. That does not automatically mean they are giving up part of their identity. And no--you don't need to compromise on wanting to feel desired, which it sounds like you might be the question.
3. I knew for far too long before I broke up with old ex. That is why I feel you know this already and are struggling to come up with all sorts of plans and schemes to avoid leaving him.
4. Stop trying to fix him. If he is happy being a Puritan, great for him. If he is unhappy being a Puritan, that is his problem, not yours.
5. He will not become what you want.
6. You are in therapy, keep working on these issues. In my simple read, you are just afraid to be alone.
7. Please read this paragraph over again, why are you still with him? No, it is not normal for a person to be lukewarm to their beloved.
I think you know all of this.
Regarding the wedding: People hooking up at weddings is not unheard of, with exes or the bridesmaid from out of town, etc.. But your guy puts a pretty sexist slant to it….. people of both genders get drunk and horny and have sex sometimes. His comment was not funny to you, and you did not like it. You don't need to debate it, he should have said he was sorry.
I think you come up with these questions to avoid admitting you just aren’t a good match. If you like holding hands in public, find someone who will do that with you.
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 3:45 PM on January 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Your questions remind me of this scene from House.
You have a brokenfinger boyfriend.
posted by phunniemee at 3:48 PM on January 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
You have a broken
posted by phunniemee at 3:48 PM on January 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hello, I want to repeat what I said previously in response to one of your many questions about this relationship and relationships in general. Although the topic of your question is different, the problem is the same: you have an unrealistic standards for romantic relationships and an unhealthy way of thinking about them. As others have suggested, you probably shouldn't be dating right now, or analyzing exes or past relationships. Focus on you.
In regard to this specific relationship: it's not for you and analyzing the reasons why as an ongoing life pursuit is a futile effort both because it doesn't matter and because your methods of analysis don't work as a way to find resolution or peace for yourself (or your partners). Focus on you.
posted by desert exile at 4:03 PM on January 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
In regard to this specific relationship: it's not for you and analyzing the reasons why as an ongoing life pursuit is a futile effort both because it doesn't matter and because your methods of analysis don't work as a way to find resolution or peace for yourself (or your partners). Focus on you.
posted by desert exile at 4:03 PM on January 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
Yeah, you're asking the wrong questions here of a new relationship. At five months, the questions to ask are: Do I feel comfortable around this person? Do I trust this person? Does this person make me feel good? Are we good at resolving conflict? Is the sex fun and arousing? Do we laugh together? Am I excited by this person? Do we have similar visions for our future in terms of basic pragmatics (geographic location, kids, money, etc.)? Is the majority of our time together positive?
You seem really hung out on figuring out whether certain claims your ex has made are factually accurate, when the issue has nothing to do with facts. Like, his text "Remember not to get drunk and sleep with your ex!" would be obnoxious regardless of whether this behavior is common, because is reveals he doesn't trust you. (Cheating is a common act in general, but that doesn't mean everyone should be mistrustful of their partners). And even worse, instead of owning up to his insecurity, he tried to play it off as a joke. The inability to trust you when you've done nothing untrustworthy, and the inability to own up to his emotions, all red flags - and that's just in terms of this small example.
posted by coffeecat at 4:04 PM on January 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
You seem really hung out on figuring out whether certain claims your ex has made are factually accurate, when the issue has nothing to do with facts. Like, his text "Remember not to get drunk and sleep with your ex!" would be obnoxious regardless of whether this behavior is common, because is reveals he doesn't trust you. (Cheating is a common act in general, but that doesn't mean everyone should be mistrustful of their partners). And even worse, instead of owning up to his insecurity, he tried to play it off as a joke. The inability to trust you when you've done nothing untrustworthy, and the inability to own up to his emotions, all red flags - and that's just in terms of this small example.
posted by coffeecat at 4:04 PM on January 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
You really need to stop talking to him. Like, for real. Setting aside any judgments about him (though I will note that he frankly seems to suck), you are using him. You're using him to work on your own shit in ways that are not productive and that are not helping either of you. You are continuing to, like, hyper-analyze this guy's every opinion and statement and trait, and like. It doesn't matter. IT DOES NOT MATTER. That's pretty much the answer to your questions 1 through 7, because all that stuff is besides the point and what you really need to be doing is NEVER TALKING TO THIS GUY AGAIN and continuing to work on yourself in therapy. He's not that interesting. He's not your job. You were together for like four or five months, it didn't work out, you don't owe each other anything. Stop talking to him and figure your own shit out, by which I mean, figure out why you're obsessed with this rando's opinions on love and romance rather than figuring out what YOU think ON YOUR OWN or with the assistance of a qualified therapist.
Stop treating your relationships and your romantic history as essay prompts. What are you avoiding with all this exhausting overthinking? Whatever it is, work on that, and learn to be single while you do.
posted by yasaman at 4:20 PM on January 14, 2023 [52 favorites]
Stop treating your relationships and your romantic history as essay prompts. What are you avoiding with all this exhausting overthinking? Whatever it is, work on that, and learn to be single while you do.
posted by yasaman at 4:20 PM on January 14, 2023 [52 favorites]
Even calling someone an "ex-" after 5 months seems like pushing it. You dated someone. You're not compatible. You sure don't sound Secure to me. Give up the quizzes or whatever. Try to get into where you are inside of you, not lost in obsessive rumination; I hope your therapist will help you with this!
posted by DMelanogaster at 4:45 PM on January 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by DMelanogaster at 4:45 PM on January 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree with a lot of the other posters here, this is hugely unsustainable (for you and for him, for the both of you) and I haven't felt this level of angst around a romantic relationship myself since I was like, 20. That's not a criticism of you, but what I think it could mean is that you just need to get out there and date a lot. more. people. Until every litle jab can be dismissed instead of overanalyzed, so that you can build up your confidence to the point where you can honestly evaluate what you want and don't want in a relationship and not feel bad about not wanting to date someone when enough arbitrary irritation that's not worth working through builds up. Yes sometimes we need to work shit out with others, but dear lord not to this extent, not after this short amount of time. Kind of like going through the cafeteria line at school, you're picking up every single food on the line, tasting it, swilling it around in your mouth, wondering if you really do like pineapple pizza or if this particular day the pizza was just in a bad mood and had Puritanical values, then moving on to the salad bar and throwing everything onto your plate, the cottage cheese, the iceberg lettuce, the thousand island dressing, mashing it all together, and overthinking whether or not it's disgusting when. YOU KNOW. IT IS. DISGUSTING. But by all means, overchew the food you don't like and overpile your plate, just don't keep eating the same damn dish you know, not even that deep down, you really don't like, and it's not because you're deficient, you're simply entitled to dislike and like what you genuinely prefer.
Like ideally you can start to run through the cafeteria line after you've tried enough of the foods to not stop on things you don't want to eat, and you can say with certainty that you like garlic knots, you want a small side salad, and you're happy with schnitzel and you don't need to overthink it, toss and turn over the flavors you don't like and whether or not you truly didn't give them a chance, and just move on, pick your meal, and sit down and enjoy it, damn.
posted by erattacorrige at 4:51 PM on January 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Like ideally you can start to run through the cafeteria line after you've tried enough of the foods to not stop on things you don't want to eat, and you can say with certainty that you like garlic knots, you want a small side salad, and you're happy with schnitzel and you don't need to overthink it, toss and turn over the flavors you don't like and whether or not you truly didn't give them a chance, and just move on, pick your meal, and sit down and enjoy it, damn.
posted by erattacorrige at 4:51 PM on January 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Sacrifice and compromise seem a bit negative (to me). I think a more positive spin on things would be Acceptance and Collaboration. Instead of sacrificing some part of myself, I accepted my partner as they are with all their quirks and flaws and choose not to let them drive me bonkers. Instead of compromising and giving something up, my partner and I can collaborate and create something better for each our contributions.
Regardless, a healthy relationship shouldn't require that much work.
posted by brookeb at 5:00 PM on January 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Regardless, a healthy relationship shouldn't require that much work.
posted by brookeb at 5:00 PM on January 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Also instead of having a somewhat semantic debate over compromise vs. sacrifice, I'd advise you to come up with a list of needs that you will not compromise on. Things like "I need my partner to be someone who is proactive about their mental health" or "I need my partner to have a healthy relationship with drugs and alcohol" or "I need to feel desired by my partner" - these are all reasonable needs, and are not areas where you should compromise or sacrifice. I bet if you make up a list like this, you'll see that this guy comes up short on a lot of your needs.
Where you compromise in relationships is on preferences.
posted by coffeecat at 5:07 PM on January 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
Where you compromise in relationships is on preferences.
posted by coffeecat at 5:07 PM on January 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's so, so hard to walk away from something you're so invested in even if it's not working at all. We put so many hopes and dreams into a relationship, especially if it's one that feels better than what we've had in the past... even if it's got a lot of bad stuff that makes us feel shitty about ourselves. Staying is miserable but letting go is so scary! I understand that; so many of do. It sounds like you're not quite ready yet but I know you are strong and will be able to when that time comes.
posted by smorgasbord at 5:07 PM on January 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 5:07 PM on January 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is the same guy you described in a previous question making racist jokes about POC drivers, right? You showed him the door, now ask him to walk on through and out of your life.
Also, you know, it's okay to break up with a guy if he isn't into you sexually and that makes you feel bad. You don't need to hash it out with him and go through cycles of him trying to perform desire and you trying to feel like things are okay, etc. It's okay to have a lot of meaningless sex afterward, too. Some folks would say that in fact desire discrepancy is a good reason to break up with someone. I am not sure why you are writing your ex-fiance an apology.
I mean, if you feel sad that you left the relationship and wish that you had tried to work to preserve it, or if you feel that the meaningless sex made you feel worse, yes, sure, those are legit feelings, but you are allowed to just....break up with people. You don't need to try to fix things, and in fact usually when it's a constant slog of needing to fix things that's a sign that the relationship is unfixable, like your relationship with hard-drinking fifty-ish man.
It feels like you're looking for reasons to give up or change your views and your self in order to adapt to this much older guy who clearly has a very strong personality and a fairly set character. This will not make you happy. You should really take a couple of months at least where you don't talk to him and get some distance. I will preemtively say that you should never, never, never find yourself feeling that you should write this guy an apology letter.
I have never worked as hard in any relationship as you seem to work in every relationship you have, and yet I feel like I've had mostly good, happy relationships with nice people.
posted by Frowner at 5:12 PM on January 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also, you know, it's okay to break up with a guy if he isn't into you sexually and that makes you feel bad. You don't need to hash it out with him and go through cycles of him trying to perform desire and you trying to feel like things are okay, etc. It's okay to have a lot of meaningless sex afterward, too. Some folks would say that in fact desire discrepancy is a good reason to break up with someone. I am not sure why you are writing your ex-fiance an apology.
I mean, if you feel sad that you left the relationship and wish that you had tried to work to preserve it, or if you feel that the meaningless sex made you feel worse, yes, sure, those are legit feelings, but you are allowed to just....break up with people. You don't need to try to fix things, and in fact usually when it's a constant slog of needing to fix things that's a sign that the relationship is unfixable, like your relationship with hard-drinking fifty-ish man.
It feels like you're looking for reasons to give up or change your views and your self in order to adapt to this much older guy who clearly has a very strong personality and a fairly set character. This will not make you happy. You should really take a couple of months at least where you don't talk to him and get some distance. I will preemtively say that you should never, never, never find yourself feeling that you should write this guy an apology letter.
I have never worked as hard in any relationship as you seem to work in every relationship you have, and yet I feel like I've had mostly good, happy relationships with nice people.
posted by Frowner at 5:12 PM on January 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm a speed reader, I read longer than most people do, and I hit "tldr" pretty quickly in this. All I can say is, this guy should not be this much work and effort after 5 months, and he's in his 50's so he probably won't adapt too well.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:24 PM on January 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:24 PM on January 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you all so much for your responses. Definitely needed these reality checks, especially about it being basically the same question about this person that I've had since the beginning, just in different costumes.
Just for clarification, I did officially end things with him yesterday. I told him that a 2-month window of a break won't be enough time for me to process over a decade's worth of relationship issues, and that it wouldn't be fair of me to lead him on or make him wait. Especially if I may still have lingering feelings for my ex-fiance that I don't realize at this moment. Even a 0.0001% chance that those feelings are present would feel like an infidelity. So I broke things off. Should I have mentioned that our values are too different, or that I don't like his sexist jokes whether he's making them in my presence or separately with his friends? Maybe, but I didn't want to hurl his own flaws at him when I have my own that I very much need to (continue to) work on.
In regards to the apology letter to my ex-fiance, I'm writing it to apologize for how much I hurt him and how the way I left him was heartless. He was one of the kindest, most thoughtful humans I've ever met, and he didn't deserve to be blindsided like that because of my own foolish impulses.
posted by Jangatroo at 5:42 PM on January 14, 2023
Just for clarification, I did officially end things with him yesterday. I told him that a 2-month window of a break won't be enough time for me to process over a decade's worth of relationship issues, and that it wouldn't be fair of me to lead him on or make him wait. Especially if I may still have lingering feelings for my ex-fiance that I don't realize at this moment. Even a 0.0001% chance that those feelings are present would feel like an infidelity. So I broke things off. Should I have mentioned that our values are too different, or that I don't like his sexist jokes whether he's making them in my presence or separately with his friends? Maybe, but I didn't want to hurl his own flaws at him when I have my own that I very much need to (continue to) work on.
In regards to the apology letter to my ex-fiance, I'm writing it to apologize for how much I hurt him and how the way I left him was heartless. He was one of the kindest, most thoughtful humans I've ever met, and he didn't deserve to be blindsided like that because of my own foolish impulses.
posted by Jangatroo at 5:42 PM on January 14, 2023
I brought up my perspective that "sacrifice" entails giving up a piece of yourself and who you are,
but there are in actual fact a million other things you can sacrifice. sacrifice entails giving something up, period. meaningful sacrifice means giving up something you care about and would rather keep. sacrificing some physical privacy is something all couples do when they decide to move in together, for example. calling this compromise instead of sacrifice because it doesn't involve literally cutting off one of your fingers is something you can do, but it is not the accepted usage.
as far as sacrificing a part of yourself goes, most people have some undesirable parts they could just as well do without. it's not required, it's not always possible, and it's not advisable when other people are the ones suggesting it, but it's hardly an unthinkable thought.
Does this lifestyle work for some people, though? Are they truly happy?
which lifestyle, puritanism? no, happiness is not the point, for a puritan. some people would say you can't understand any of the sacrifice argument until you find something you value more than happiness. I am not such a person but I respect such people. theoretically. from a distance.
or do you mean the all-or-nothing lifestyle of vacillating between extremes, which you also describe - going from sobriety and orthorexia to unrestrained satisfaction of appetites and back again? that one, yes, you can be truly happy living like that, to the extent that fun and happiness are more or less the same thing for some people.
what I get from your concern over compromise vs. sacrifice and the preoccupation over love languages is that vocabulary and definitions are very important to you. they are important to me too, in a very different way. sometimes a shared way of talking is more crucial to a relationship's success than a shared value system.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:43 PM on January 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
but there are in actual fact a million other things you can sacrifice. sacrifice entails giving something up, period. meaningful sacrifice means giving up something you care about and would rather keep. sacrificing some physical privacy is something all couples do when they decide to move in together, for example. calling this compromise instead of sacrifice because it doesn't involve literally cutting off one of your fingers is something you can do, but it is not the accepted usage.
as far as sacrificing a part of yourself goes, most people have some undesirable parts they could just as well do without. it's not required, it's not always possible, and it's not advisable when other people are the ones suggesting it, but it's hardly an unthinkable thought.
Does this lifestyle work for some people, though? Are they truly happy?
which lifestyle, puritanism? no, happiness is not the point, for a puritan. some people would say you can't understand any of the sacrifice argument until you find something you value more than happiness. I am not such a person but I respect such people. theoretically. from a distance.
or do you mean the all-or-nothing lifestyle of vacillating between extremes, which you also describe - going from sobriety and orthorexia to unrestrained satisfaction of appetites and back again? that one, yes, you can be truly happy living like that, to the extent that fun and happiness are more or less the same thing for some people.
what I get from your concern over compromise vs. sacrifice and the preoccupation over love languages is that vocabulary and definitions are very important to you. they are important to me too, in a very different way. sometimes a shared way of talking is more crucial to a relationship's success than a shared value system.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:43 PM on January 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Okay, I’ll be the jerk and say it: you sound like you’re in a bit of crisis now and obsessing over romantic relationships instead of dealing with that. I say this with true empathy because I’ve been there—and I mean clinically obsessing over romantic relationships to the point where my paragraphs became chapters like this.
I will also be blunt and say I don’t think you should send the letter to your ex-fiancée. I think you should leave him to process the relationship on his own and only send him what I can only imagine is a long, intense, self-flagellating missive if you are sure he is in a good space to receive it. And even then you should start with small overtures for contact, not major ones. This letter is for you; write it and discuss it with your therapist but maybe keep it aside until your sense of urgency passes.
posted by kapers at 7:11 PM on January 14, 2023 [27 favorites]
I will also be blunt and say I don’t think you should send the letter to your ex-fiancée. I think you should leave him to process the relationship on his own and only send him what I can only imagine is a long, intense, self-flagellating missive if you are sure he is in a good space to receive it. And even then you should start with small overtures for contact, not major ones. This letter is for you; write it and discuss it with your therapist but maybe keep it aside until your sense of urgency passes.
posted by kapers at 7:11 PM on January 14, 2023 [27 favorites]
I’ll be more final. Absolutely DO NOT send any letters to any exes. Write it down, whatever you need to say, and either burn it or use it only as a discussion topic with your therapist.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 8:20 PM on January 14, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 8:20 PM on January 14, 2023 [25 favorites]
Please don't send an apology letter to your ex. That would be a very unhealthy (for both of you) and not helpful (for either of you) thing to do.
posted by SageTrail at 8:25 PM on January 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by SageTrail at 8:25 PM on January 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
I'm really happy you broke up with Mr. Puritan. Yay! He sounds like a huge pill, and if he has a crap personality and he's not into you sexually or romantically, why waste any more time? Move on and try to accept that is was a short relationship, didn't work, you don't bear any guilt here, and you can close the book on this short chapter.
However, I do worry about you now wanting to write a self-flagellating letter to your former fiance and saying really very extreme, rigid, self-punishing things like this about yourself:
Especially if I may still have lingering feelings for my ex-,fiance that I don't realize at this moment. Even a 0.0001% chance that those feelings are present would feel like an infidelity.
It's okay to have conflicting feelings. It's okay to be messy. I've found that life is messy. Feelings are messy. Loving people can be messy. Your obsession with insisting on absolutes in feelings, and thinking you can define the one relationship value to rule them all, and your need for emotional things to be tightly locked into neat little boxes really looks from where I'm sitting like you're using guilt and emotional control to hurt and punish yourself.
Please try to be kind and loving to yourself. Do hard work in therapy but outside of that, please try not to ruminate so much and find things to enjoy and extend some compassion to yourself.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 9:36 PM on January 14, 2023 [22 favorites]
However, I do worry about you now wanting to write a self-flagellating letter to your former fiance and saying really very extreme, rigid, self-punishing things like this about yourself:
Especially if I may still have lingering feelings for my ex-,fiance that I don't realize at this moment. Even a 0.0001% chance that those feelings are present would feel like an infidelity.
It's okay to have conflicting feelings. It's okay to be messy. I've found that life is messy. Feelings are messy. Loving people can be messy. Your obsession with insisting on absolutes in feelings, and thinking you can define the one relationship value to rule them all, and your need for emotional things to be tightly locked into neat little boxes really looks from where I'm sitting like you're using guilt and emotional control to hurt and punish yourself.
Please try to be kind and loving to yourself. Do hard work in therapy but outside of that, please try not to ruminate so much and find things to enjoy and extend some compassion to yourself.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 9:36 PM on January 14, 2023 [22 favorites]
Compromise is literal and concrete. Sacrifice (unless it involves actual killing) is metaphorical and abstract. Your boy likes sacrifice because it can mean whatever he wants it to mean. Compromise is what actually makes relationships work, but is harder for "big thinkers" because it involves actual results, not just big thoughts.
posted by grog at 10:28 AM on January 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by grog at 10:28 AM on January 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
By ruminating, you are trying to delay what you know you must do: let go. As long as you ponder these questions, you can keep the drama alive in your head. Go do fun things with your friends and stop dating for a few months. Whenever one of these questions about love, romance, or an ex pop up in your head, acknowledge it then don't go down that rabbit hole.
posted by airmail at 1:04 PM on January 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by airmail at 1:04 PM on January 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure I had seen before that you all met on an app. I am super curious as to why you are matching with men more than 20 years older than you are. Do you typically date older men, and if so, why?
I'm in my late 40s, dating someone in his mid 30s, and I'm not opposed to an age difference generally (as long as we are talking about consenting adults), but I also know, as someone closer to your ex's age, that men are generally more conservative than women, and older folks are generally more conservative than younger folks.
For me, this means that men younger than I am are usually a bit more aligned with my values. I know some great men my age - men close to your ex's age - and certainly many who don't have values like your ex's. But, if things like being generally not racist or sexist and having similar values are important to you, then it can be a good idea to screen for this right from the start.
And, the next time you get on the aps, I am going to suggest you do an age rage as much younger as older. I'd say go 29 to 39.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:49 PM on January 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm in my late 40s, dating someone in his mid 30s, and I'm not opposed to an age difference generally (as long as we are talking about consenting adults), but I also know, as someone closer to your ex's age, that men are generally more conservative than women, and older folks are generally more conservative than younger folks.
For me, this means that men younger than I am are usually a bit more aligned with my values. I know some great men my age - men close to your ex's age - and certainly many who don't have values like your ex's. But, if things like being generally not racist or sexist and having similar values are important to you, then it can be a good idea to screen for this right from the start.
And, the next time you get on the aps, I am going to suggest you do an age rage as much younger as older. I'd say go 29 to 39.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:49 PM on January 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: bluedaisy, he lied about his age initially on the app. He put it as 42, and then when we went on a date early on, we were discussing age/Birthdays for an unrelated reason. I asked him, "What year were you born?" and he responded, "1982." That would have made him 40 at the time. I had a hunch he wasn't revealing his true age on the app when we met, but that confirmed it. I don't have a specific age range, but with men especially, I've tended to date older in hopes that they've had similar life experiences to me by that point in their lives. And that they're emotionally mature.
He told me that he'd lied about his age approximately 3-4 weeks into dating. He looks much younger than he is, and doesn't have any gray hair (genetics on his father's side; his father is 80 and looks 40). My ex told me he lied because he thought that if people saw that he was 55 straight away, they would be more likely to disregard him as an option. I wasn't thrilled about this, but I understood it and told him that lying is a dealbreaker for me, so if there was anything else he's been untruthful about, we couldn't continue. For whatever reason, lying about age- especially when meeting on the Internet- didn't bother me as much as lying about other matters (having another partner, etc.).
I can say with confidence that I don't think he was untruthful about anything else in the relationship. He has significantly more female friends than male, and has a sexual/romantic/dating past with most of them (unless the woman was already in a relationship when he met her). He says he gets along better with women because he can say things like, "I miss you" and talk about anything, whereas with men he "can't" do that because Southern Culture and not crossing emotional/vulnerability lines with men. I did ask him to please tell me if, when he mentions a female friend, that they've had a sexual past. He didn't understand why this mattered so much to me, but he would do it. But towards the end of the relationship, there were two female friends he mentioned, and I had to "drag it out" of him that they did indeed have a sexual past. So I don't know. Is that lying? Regardless, it's no longer my problem.
posted by Jangatroo at 8:54 AM on January 16, 2023
He told me that he'd lied about his age approximately 3-4 weeks into dating. He looks much younger than he is, and doesn't have any gray hair (genetics on his father's side; his father is 80 and looks 40). My ex told me he lied because he thought that if people saw that he was 55 straight away, they would be more likely to disregard him as an option. I wasn't thrilled about this, but I understood it and told him that lying is a dealbreaker for me, so if there was anything else he's been untruthful about, we couldn't continue. For whatever reason, lying about age- especially when meeting on the Internet- didn't bother me as much as lying about other matters (having another partner, etc.).
I can say with confidence that I don't think he was untruthful about anything else in the relationship. He has significantly more female friends than male, and has a sexual/romantic/dating past with most of them (unless the woman was already in a relationship when he met her). He says he gets along better with women because he can say things like, "I miss you" and talk about anything, whereas with men he "can't" do that because Southern Culture and not crossing emotional/vulnerability lines with men. I did ask him to please tell me if, when he mentions a female friend, that they've had a sexual past. He didn't understand why this mattered so much to me, but he would do it. But towards the end of the relationship, there were two female friends he mentioned, and I had to "drag it out" of him that they did indeed have a sexual past. So I don't know. Is that lying? Regardless, it's no longer my problem.
posted by Jangatroo at 8:54 AM on January 16, 2023
I brought up my perspective that "sacrifice" entails giving up a piece of yourself and who you are, whereas "compromise" involves finding a common ground, and not giving up any parts of yourself. He agreed, but his perspective is that sacrificing a part of yourself- similar to an altar in a church- is a noble act, and he feels it would be necessary for him to do in a marriage in order to better it
I promise you, promise you, that when you are in a healthy relationship with a good match you will know it because you will not be spending your entire sole brief breath of existence upon this glorious earth debating ABSOLUTELY MADDENING SEMANTIC NONSENSE.
You MUST yeet this irritating man directly into Earth's yellow sun, at this point I declare it your moral imperative.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:09 PM on January 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
I promise you, promise you, that when you are in a healthy relationship with a good match you will know it because you will not be spending your entire sole brief breath of existence upon this glorious earth debating ABSOLUTELY MADDENING SEMANTIC NONSENSE.
You MUST yeet this irritating man directly into Earth's yellow sun, at this point I declare it your moral imperative.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:09 PM on January 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
My ex told me he lied because he thought that if people saw that he was 55 straight away, they would be more likely to disregard him as an option.
Nah, he lied because he wants to date younger women, how novel.
Do you think he'd date a woman who was 76 -- the same age gap you two have -- if they'd have him? Or even a woman who was 55?
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:59 PM on January 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
Nah, he lied because he wants to date younger women, how novel.
Do you think he'd date a woman who was 76 -- the same age gap you two have -- if they'd have him? Or even a woman who was 55?
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:59 PM on January 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
he lied about his age initially on the app
I asked him, "What year were you born?" and he responded, "1982."
Okay, even aside from the age difference, this is a gigantic red flag. Please, for the future: someone who starts out any relationship with a lie that they double down on in person is not someone to continue to engage with. The reasons aren't relevant.
My ex told me he lied because he thought that if people saw that he was 55 straight away, they would be more likely to disregard him as an option.
But also, this reason is pretty terrible! Let's reword this: "if [younger women] saw that he was 55 straight away, they would be more likely to disregard him as an option [because they had specifically decided that they didn't want to date people his age so lying was the only way to trick them]."
This is pretty sleazy, really. He's lying to skirt around specific criteria people have set. We aren't talking about a category of people who are discriminated against in the world in a situation where they are competing based on merit. People are allowed to decide that they want to date people within a certain age rage. He's violating boundaries from the get-go.
Also, who isn't giving 55 year old men a chance? Many women in his age cohort are certainly interested in dating men the same age. So he's really not talking about women who are peers. Also, if he wants to justify dating younger because he allegedly looks younger: well, guess what, some women look younger too!
I also want to speak to the idea that older men are more emotionally mature. That is not necessarily the case. Many millennial men are as emotionally mature and grew up with more feminist parents who were more likely to at least try to work past gender roles in parenting. Also, I'd say a key thing to look for in emotionally mature men: they have solid friendships with men, where they actually talk about problems and feelings. It's a pretty common thing that men are socialized not to show their feelings, especially to other men, but may be more comfortable doing that with women they've dated or women friends more generally. I know there are lots of men who have emotionally close friendships only with women. To me, that's a sign that a man hasn't really done the work to unpack misogyny and his privilege, because he's still adhering to gender roles that say it's not okay for men to be emotional or vulnerable with each other. It's also really common for men to want to stay friends with women after a break up because they don't really have other emotionally connected friendships.
I'm not saying it's bad for a man to have women friends, or to be friends with some exes. But a man who has close and emotionally intimate friendships only with women is a concern, something I look for. So I'd say, in dating, try to figure out if the man you are dating has close and emotional connections to other men, or if he always relies of women for that.
More broadly, you seem to give him lots of chances to explain his inappropriate behavior and offensive ideas. You don't have to do this. You don't have to give anyone a chance to tell you why it's okay that they lied, that they hate the state you live in and complain about it all the time, that they made a racist comment. Dating is about weeding out people whose values don't align with your own, not about compromising your own values because you've fallen for someone quickly.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:48 PM on January 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
I asked him, "What year were you born?" and he responded, "1982."
Okay, even aside from the age difference, this is a gigantic red flag. Please, for the future: someone who starts out any relationship with a lie that they double down on in person is not someone to continue to engage with. The reasons aren't relevant.
My ex told me he lied because he thought that if people saw that he was 55 straight away, they would be more likely to disregard him as an option.
But also, this reason is pretty terrible! Let's reword this: "if [younger women] saw that he was 55 straight away, they would be more likely to disregard him as an option [because they had specifically decided that they didn't want to date people his age so lying was the only way to trick them]."
This is pretty sleazy, really. He's lying to skirt around specific criteria people have set. We aren't talking about a category of people who are discriminated against in the world in a situation where they are competing based on merit. People are allowed to decide that they want to date people within a certain age rage. He's violating boundaries from the get-go.
Also, who isn't giving 55 year old men a chance? Many women in his age cohort are certainly interested in dating men the same age. So he's really not talking about women who are peers. Also, if he wants to justify dating younger because he allegedly looks younger: well, guess what, some women look younger too!
I also want to speak to the idea that older men are more emotionally mature. That is not necessarily the case. Many millennial men are as emotionally mature and grew up with more feminist parents who were more likely to at least try to work past gender roles in parenting. Also, I'd say a key thing to look for in emotionally mature men: they have solid friendships with men, where they actually talk about problems and feelings. It's a pretty common thing that men are socialized not to show their feelings, especially to other men, but may be more comfortable doing that with women they've dated or women friends more generally. I know there are lots of men who have emotionally close friendships only with women. To me, that's a sign that a man hasn't really done the work to unpack misogyny and his privilege, because he's still adhering to gender roles that say it's not okay for men to be emotional or vulnerable with each other. It's also really common for men to want to stay friends with women after a break up because they don't really have other emotionally connected friendships.
I'm not saying it's bad for a man to have women friends, or to be friends with some exes. But a man who has close and emotionally intimate friendships only with women is a concern, something I look for. So I'd say, in dating, try to figure out if the man you are dating has close and emotional connections to other men, or if he always relies of women for that.
More broadly, you seem to give him lots of chances to explain his inappropriate behavior and offensive ideas. You don't have to do this. You don't have to give anyone a chance to tell you why it's okay that they lied, that they hate the state you live in and complain about it all the time, that they made a racist comment. Dating is about weeding out people whose values don't align with your own, not about compromising your own values because you've fallen for someone quickly.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:48 PM on January 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's disrespectful, controlling, and violating to ask/make/coach your partner to change themselves in order for you to have a better relationship experience with them.
A romantic relationship is supposed to be a soft sanctuary for everyone involved, where both/all partners are accepted and appreciated by each another just as they are, for who they are. When we don't like parts of someone, it is our responsibility to break up and find someone else whom we do like. Sticking around with them and trying to change them is selfish and cruel: we're giving ourselves permission to abuse the power we have in the relationship (which is derived from the intimacy we share) to violate their personhood, just because we don't want the hassle of having to find someone else.
posted by MiraK at 8:21 AM on January 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
A romantic relationship is supposed to be a soft sanctuary for everyone involved, where both/all partners are accepted and appreciated by each another just as they are, for who they are. When we don't like parts of someone, it is our responsibility to break up and find someone else whom we do like. Sticking around with them and trying to change them is selfish and cruel: we're giving ourselves permission to abuse the power we have in the relationship (which is derived from the intimacy we share) to violate their personhood, just because we don't want the hassle of having to find someone else.
posted by MiraK at 8:21 AM on January 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
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