Are My Relationship Desires Unrealistic?
December 12, 2022 8:28 AM Subscribe
My boyfriend (M/55) and I (F/33) are both introverts, and have been in a relationship for 4 months. We share core values, and are compatible in many ways. A dispute yesterday has left me wondering if what I desire in a relationship is unrealistic or unfeasible.
My boyfriend (M/55) and I (F/33) met 5 months ago, and have been in a relationship for the last 4 months. We are both introverts. Yesterday, we were talking about our upbringings and the sexual culture (and repressions thereof) within our individual backgrounds. We eventually got to discussing the importance of being open with your partner in terms of sharing desires and urges. I believe that honest communication is the most important thing in a relationship, and that even if something is difficult to talk (or think) about, it should still be brought up with the other person. His upbringing (Southern U.S.) was very reserved, and people were taught not to voice their feelings to someone if they were negative in nature. My boyfriend has experienced my openness, and has stated that he now understands how important it is, and has been expressing himself with me fully. This has been wonderful.
Unfortunately, our discussion yesterday segued into discussing cheating and commitment to a person. We both agree that anything can happen in a person's life to change the way they feel about something, and that we cannot always control when this happens. No issues there; we were on the same page about that. But he then claimed that two people can love one another and be more committed to each other than any two people in the history of humanity, but there is still a 0.000001% (with more zeroes, in fact) that something could happen, and those people could cheat on their partner, fall out of love with their partner, find that they no longer want to be committed to their partner, etc. This was absolutely devastating to me, and I'm wondering if I'm in denial about love.
His parents divorced when he was about 8, and my parents have been together for almost 40 years. His parents had a toxic relationship devoid of love, and certainly no verbal or physical expression of their affections towards one another when they were still together. My parents look at one another- to this very day- as if they've just met. They love each other so very much, and have no qualms about expressing that to the other person. I told my boyfriend that there is, of course, an extremely (almost infinitesimally) small chance that my parents could get divorced, but that it could still happen. BUT, if I were to ask each of my parents that same question, they would say they *know* for a *fact* that they 100% trust the other person to never do something that would hurt them, and that they each *will* for a *fact* love and be committed to their spouse forever.
I then told my boyfriend that this is how I feel about myself; I trust him completely to never cheat, and to always be open with me if he did have an urge to be with someone else. His perspective was that this is true for himself as well, but because no human has ever been completely without sin ever, that he trusts me 99.99999% (non-terminating), and trusts me more than anyone, but that it isn't 100% because there is always a chance that something could happen in me to where I would change/cheat/no longer be in love with him. I understand and agree with his perspective that there is always a chance that something could change, whether it be a physical change in the brain (from a concussion, for example), or even as simple as feelings changing. However, I told him that I feel I deserve to be with someone who trusts me 100%, and who knows that THEY themselves would never cheat on me. I don't want to be anybody's "right now" or temporary certainty. In a nutshell, the dispute encompassed the idea of "I love and am committed to you, and because of who I am right now, that is unfaltering. But we cannot predict the future, and so I cannot say with absolute 100% certainty that something wouldn't happen to where I would cheat/fall out of love/etc."
My question is: Am I setting unrealistic expectations for myself to have a partner who 100% trusts me? Is this even a possibility? I'm very conflicted. All humans are capable of "sin" (for lack of a better term), and to think that I am above that would be delusional. My boyfriend even says that people who think they themselves are above sin are the ones who can't be trusted. I completely agree with this. There's just something in me about *this* specific topic of cheating that guts me to my core. I really would like to know others' perspectives on this, especially those who are in long-term, happy and committed relationships. Do you recognize and acknowledge the possibility that your partner could in fact cheat on you one day (even through extreme circumstances like having a lobotomy or being driven insane, and they are suddenly a completely different person)?
(On a side note, he is calm during arguments because his father was explosive, angry, and had a hair-trigger temper. My boyfriend doesn't want to continue that cycle for himself, and so when he feels that level of anger in himself in an argument, his way of coping is to have a calm demeanor. At one point during the dispute yesterday, he was raising his voice slightly, and then got down in my face (I was sitting on the floor, he was standing) and YELLED one of the words in the sentence. I immediately stood up and began trembling. I know he would never put his hands on me, and he said the same (that he himself would never put his hands on me). I've had abusive partners in the past, and hearing the anger come out put me into a state of fear. I don't want to be scared, because *everyone* has moments like this in their relationship. But I can't help that it scared me. Is this sound? Should I just acknowledge this as the result of past triggers and move on?)
My boyfriend (M/55) and I (F/33) met 5 months ago, and have been in a relationship for the last 4 months. We are both introverts. Yesterday, we were talking about our upbringings and the sexual culture (and repressions thereof) within our individual backgrounds. We eventually got to discussing the importance of being open with your partner in terms of sharing desires and urges. I believe that honest communication is the most important thing in a relationship, and that even if something is difficult to talk (or think) about, it should still be brought up with the other person. His upbringing (Southern U.S.) was very reserved, and people were taught not to voice their feelings to someone if they were negative in nature. My boyfriend has experienced my openness, and has stated that he now understands how important it is, and has been expressing himself with me fully. This has been wonderful.
Unfortunately, our discussion yesterday segued into discussing cheating and commitment to a person. We both agree that anything can happen in a person's life to change the way they feel about something, and that we cannot always control when this happens. No issues there; we were on the same page about that. But he then claimed that two people can love one another and be more committed to each other than any two people in the history of humanity, but there is still a 0.000001% (with more zeroes, in fact) that something could happen, and those people could cheat on their partner, fall out of love with their partner, find that they no longer want to be committed to their partner, etc. This was absolutely devastating to me, and I'm wondering if I'm in denial about love.
His parents divorced when he was about 8, and my parents have been together for almost 40 years. His parents had a toxic relationship devoid of love, and certainly no verbal or physical expression of their affections towards one another when they were still together. My parents look at one another- to this very day- as if they've just met. They love each other so very much, and have no qualms about expressing that to the other person. I told my boyfriend that there is, of course, an extremely (almost infinitesimally) small chance that my parents could get divorced, but that it could still happen. BUT, if I were to ask each of my parents that same question, they would say they *know* for a *fact* that they 100% trust the other person to never do something that would hurt them, and that they each *will* for a *fact* love and be committed to their spouse forever.
I then told my boyfriend that this is how I feel about myself; I trust him completely to never cheat, and to always be open with me if he did have an urge to be with someone else. His perspective was that this is true for himself as well, but because no human has ever been completely without sin ever, that he trusts me 99.99999% (non-terminating), and trusts me more than anyone, but that it isn't 100% because there is always a chance that something could happen in me to where I would change/cheat/no longer be in love with him. I understand and agree with his perspective that there is always a chance that something could change, whether it be a physical change in the brain (from a concussion, for example), or even as simple as feelings changing. However, I told him that I feel I deserve to be with someone who trusts me 100%, and who knows that THEY themselves would never cheat on me. I don't want to be anybody's "right now" or temporary certainty. In a nutshell, the dispute encompassed the idea of "I love and am committed to you, and because of who I am right now, that is unfaltering. But we cannot predict the future, and so I cannot say with absolute 100% certainty that something wouldn't happen to where I would cheat/fall out of love/etc."
My question is: Am I setting unrealistic expectations for myself to have a partner who 100% trusts me? Is this even a possibility? I'm very conflicted. All humans are capable of "sin" (for lack of a better term), and to think that I am above that would be delusional. My boyfriend even says that people who think they themselves are above sin are the ones who can't be trusted. I completely agree with this. There's just something in me about *this* specific topic of cheating that guts me to my core. I really would like to know others' perspectives on this, especially those who are in long-term, happy and committed relationships. Do you recognize and acknowledge the possibility that your partner could in fact cheat on you one day (even through extreme circumstances like having a lobotomy or being driven insane, and they are suddenly a completely different person)?
(On a side note, he is calm during arguments because his father was explosive, angry, and had a hair-trigger temper. My boyfriend doesn't want to continue that cycle for himself, and so when he feels that level of anger in himself in an argument, his way of coping is to have a calm demeanor. At one point during the dispute yesterday, he was raising his voice slightly, and then got down in my face (I was sitting on the floor, he was standing) and YELLED one of the words in the sentence. I immediately stood up and began trembling. I know he would never put his hands on me, and he said the same (that he himself would never put his hands on me). I've had abusive partners in the past, and hearing the anger come out put me into a state of fear. I don't want to be scared, because *everyone* has moments like this in their relationship. But I can't help that it scared me. Is this sound? Should I just acknowledge this as the result of past triggers and move on?)
First: I agree with kapers that the yelling is very worrisome. That is NOT appropriate behavior in an argument and the fact that he didn't get physical is irrelevant. He invaded your personal space in a very scary way and that's a big issue.
But I do want to answer your question:
My question is: Am I setting unrealistic expectations for myself to have a partner who 100% trusts me?
My very humble opinion is that it is possible, but not with everyone. Your partner is one of the people with whom it is not.
My background is pretty similar to your boyfriend's. My parents divorced when I was 8 and absolutely loathed each other. My dad has cheated in every relationship he's been in. He cheated on my mom with my stepmom and he cheated on my stepmom with other women (they're still married). My mom also had borderline personality disorder and I have depression and anxiety.
I've been in therapy for years and my ability to trust the people I care about has certainly improved over time. But given my family history and my mental health, I just don't know if it will ever be 100%. It has little to do with the person or people in question; it's my inability to get over that "hump" and feel perfectly certain that nothing is going to change and they are not going to hurt me. This is true for cheating, leaving me in the middle of the night, whatever – it's all the same, it's an inability, based on my past experiences, to ever truly believe that someone will not hurt me.
posted by anotheraccount at 8:44 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
But I do want to answer your question:
My question is: Am I setting unrealistic expectations for myself to have a partner who 100% trusts me?
My very humble opinion is that it is possible, but not with everyone. Your partner is one of the people with whom it is not.
My background is pretty similar to your boyfriend's. My parents divorced when I was 8 and absolutely loathed each other. My dad has cheated in every relationship he's been in. He cheated on my mom with my stepmom and he cheated on my stepmom with other women (they're still married). My mom also had borderline personality disorder and I have depression and anxiety.
I've been in therapy for years and my ability to trust the people I care about has certainly improved over time. But given my family history and my mental health, I just don't know if it will ever be 100%. It has little to do with the person or people in question; it's my inability to get over that "hump" and feel perfectly certain that nothing is going to change and they are not going to hurt me. This is true for cheating, leaving me in the middle of the night, whatever – it's all the same, it's an inability, based on my past experiences, to ever truly believe that someone will not hurt me.
posted by anotheraccount at 8:44 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
There's a huge difference between being 100% certain that you (and perhaps even your partner) will never cheat, and being 100% certain that your relationship will never change. Cheating is a conscious choice and it's quite simple to make the decision to never cheat no matter what happens in your life. You can't make the decision to never fall out of love with someone. You can decide to stay married forever regardless of happiness, but that's not quite the same thing. I think it's very reasonable to say that you can't predict the future with certainty.
That said, I think it may be a red flag that he's not willing to say he would never cheat in a 4 month old relationship, unless perhaps he has the quirk of being...."technically correct" to a fault. Sure, maybe almost everyone would cheat in very very unusual circumstances, but you don't say that in a new relationship, or plan on it. You say that you'll never cheat if you're very very determined not to, even if you can't predict the future with certainty (and I'm saying that as someone who is sometimes "technically correct" about the things I promise, to a fault, and who is also determined to never cheat, and never have yet - but I wonder if your boyfriend has. I would suspect he may have, even if he's not saying so now.)
posted by randomnity at 8:45 AM on December 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
That said, I think it may be a red flag that he's not willing to say he would never cheat in a 4 month old relationship, unless perhaps he has the quirk of being...."technically correct" to a fault. Sure, maybe almost everyone would cheat in very very unusual circumstances, but you don't say that in a new relationship, or plan on it. You say that you'll never cheat if you're very very determined not to, even if you can't predict the future with certainty (and I'm saying that as someone who is sometimes "technically correct" about the things I promise, to a fault, and who is also determined to never cheat, and never have yet - but I wonder if your boyfriend has. I would suspect he may have, even if he's not saying so now.)
posted by randomnity at 8:45 AM on December 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
I'm sure more articulate people can give you a better answer than this, but I just want to tell you that your relationship desires are not unrealistic. I totally get why the possibility of leaving being acknowledged would not bother you, but the possibility of cheating being acknowledged would. One involves honesty and one is extremely dishonest and gives you no agency.
I say this as a 35 year old married to a 52 year old, but the age difference combined with the recent yelling really worries me for you. I think you deserve better. My husband has never yelled at me or made me feel scared. In fact, he actively looks for the best ways to communicate with me (the same as I do for him). I was on guard when I started my relationship, expecting that he might be dating someone so much younger because he was looking for someone who would put up with more than an older woman would. Please try to look at your boyfriend through that lens a little more until you're sure about him.
posted by Eyelash at 8:47 AM on December 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
I say this as a 35 year old married to a 52 year old, but the age difference combined with the recent yelling really worries me for you. I think you deserve better. My husband has never yelled at me or made me feel scared. In fact, he actively looks for the best ways to communicate with me (the same as I do for him). I was on guard when I started my relationship, expecting that he might be dating someone so much younger because he was looking for someone who would put up with more than an older woman would. Please try to look at your boyfriend through that lens a little more until you're sure about him.
posted by Eyelash at 8:47 AM on December 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
I feel like you are responding, on a gut level, to two red flag feelings - first, the fact that he yelled at you, which is terrible; and second, that you felt a lack of mutual trust. I wonder if your concern isn't so much the possibility that people can fall out of love, but that you would want a partner who would be willing to make a commitment in spite of the possibility it can occur. I presume that people who make marriage vows and such things know it is possible that they will be broken some day, but are hoping that that isn't the case and committed to trying to avoid those situations - that is, that the arrangement is explicitly set up to be as non-temporary as possible.
Which is to say, maybe you can agree to disagree about the percentages and risks, as long as you agree about the intention and purpose of the relationship. And if you can't, I wouldn't feel like that was something off about your idea of love, just an incompatibility between the two of you as partners. I think there are definitely many people who enter into relationships with the goal of going for something that lasts (and your partner may still be one of them! But I hope he learns to deal with his temper - everyone has one, even if they don't let it out...).
posted by nightcoast at 8:48 AM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Which is to say, maybe you can agree to disagree about the percentages and risks, as long as you agree about the intention and purpose of the relationship. And if you can't, I wouldn't feel like that was something off about your idea of love, just an incompatibility between the two of you as partners. I think there are definitely many people who enter into relationships with the goal of going for something that lasts (and your partner may still be one of them! But I hope he learns to deal with his temper - everyone has one, even if they don't let it out...).
posted by nightcoast at 8:48 AM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
You've only been together for four months, that's very early days in a relationship, so why are you guys having yelling arguments about weird cheating hypotheticals? Are you always this worried that a partner will eventually cheat on you, or is something about this guy?
posted by cakelite at 8:51 AM on December 12, 2022 [102 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 8:51 AM on December 12, 2022 [102 favorites]
At one point during the dispute yesterday, he was raising his voice slightly, and then got down in my face (I was sitting on the floor, he was standing) and YELLED one of the words in the sentence. I immediately stood up and began trembling.
I know this wasn't the focus of your question but I see this as a big problem and cause to end the relationship.
posted by fies at 8:51 AM on December 12, 2022 [40 favorites]
I know this wasn't the focus of your question but I see this as a big problem and cause to end the relationship.
posted by fies at 8:51 AM on December 12, 2022 [40 favorites]
It seems reasonable to me to agree that nothing is 100%. Is that where you partner is? Is there anything that would be considered 100%? Is it a mathematical thing? In a certain sense, in the future, there is no guarantee. That's what the 99.9999999999 means to me. It is as close to 100% as anything could be in a predictive sense.
With that said, it may be that you are picking up on some other feeling that is not really about the numbers.
posted by RoadScholar at 8:51 AM on December 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
With that said, it may be that you are picking up on some other feeling that is not really about the numbers.
posted by RoadScholar at 8:51 AM on December 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
And, for many people yelling is not that unusual though you have to decide for yourself.
posted by RoadScholar at 8:53 AM on December 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by RoadScholar at 8:53 AM on December 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
I'm 23 years into a committed, generally happy relationship. I sort of think you're conflating different things with cheating and falling out of love, which to me are a choice you make vs. a thing that just happens.
But I think some of this is just temperament and past experience. (Mental health, family history, personal relationship experience, etc.) I can't imagine 100% trusting anyone about almost anything, including myself. I'm not that person. Maybe your partner isn't that person, either, especially with twenty more years than you of observing human failures to live up to our best selves. It's more important to me to be on the same page about how we each *hope* to behave in the event of a loss of love, and also how we would try to behave in the event that one of us fails to live up to those hopes, than to be absolutely 100% sure that the situation will never arise in the first place.
I agree, though, that I'm a lot more concerned about getting into your face and yelling right now than about any hypothetical "what if". I'm worried that you're worrying about the hypothetical to avoid facing the present. If he can't get that under control, the hypothetical barely matters.
(I do sympathize. I'm a person from a repressed-feelings family partnered with someone from a yelling-throwing-things family. But he never yells at me, even if he sometimes speaks sharply to his own workbench in ways that trip my startle reflex. And the first time he threw anything was also the last time because we had "that's not okay" talk and he recalibrated to what was okay in the context of our shared life. Your partner needs to get this under control.)
posted by Stacey at 8:53 AM on December 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
But I think some of this is just temperament and past experience. (Mental health, family history, personal relationship experience, etc.) I can't imagine 100% trusting anyone about almost anything, including myself. I'm not that person. Maybe your partner isn't that person, either, especially with twenty more years than you of observing human failures to live up to our best selves. It's more important to me to be on the same page about how we each *hope* to behave in the event of a loss of love, and also how we would try to behave in the event that one of us fails to live up to those hopes, than to be absolutely 100% sure that the situation will never arise in the first place.
I agree, though, that I'm a lot more concerned about getting into your face and yelling right now than about any hypothetical "what if". I'm worried that you're worrying about the hypothetical to avoid facing the present. If he can't get that under control, the hypothetical barely matters.
(I do sympathize. I'm a person from a repressed-feelings family partnered with someone from a yelling-throwing-things family. But he never yells at me, even if he sometimes speaks sharply to his own workbench in ways that trip my startle reflex. And the first time he threw anything was also the last time because we had "that's not okay" talk and he recalibrated to what was okay in the context of our shared life. Your partner needs to get this under control.)
posted by Stacey at 8:53 AM on December 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
"...that he trusts me 99.99999% (non-terminating), and trusts me more than anyone..."
After four months of dating, that's actually A LOT of trust to have for a partner. Your parents had 40 years to build their relationship, and true trust is earned over time. I wonder how they felt four months in? Would they have said with 100% certainty that neither of them would ever cheat?
My parents sound much like yours, actually. Forty two years married, and when I go home to visit I still overhear them in the next room over, expressing their love and gratitude for each other before they go to sleep. It's enough to make you weep. But I can say with near-certainty that they did not have flawless, pristine trust for each other the entirety of those 42 years. Especially in the beginning, when my mom was still reeling a bit from her first failed marriage, etc.
It's a beautiful sentiment, but... in my view, not entirely realistic, no. And that's okay! In fact, the messiness and uncertainty and humanity of it makes it all the more real. You don't fully trust, but you say fuck it and love anyway.
OK—but, also... your last paragraph was burying the lede a little bit. To me, this doesn't seem like the kind of conversation that would naturally devolve to him yelling in your face?! How did he react when you stood up, trembling? If he didn't immediately see his mistake and apologize... I would definitely recommend reserving your trust for a while longer in this relationship. Also, please do not minimize your fear. Listen to it!
posted by gold bridges at 8:56 AM on December 12, 2022 [47 favorites]
After four months of dating, that's actually A LOT of trust to have for a partner. Your parents had 40 years to build their relationship, and true trust is earned over time. I wonder how they felt four months in? Would they have said with 100% certainty that neither of them would ever cheat?
My parents sound much like yours, actually. Forty two years married, and when I go home to visit I still overhear them in the next room over, expressing their love and gratitude for each other before they go to sleep. It's enough to make you weep. But I can say with near-certainty that they did not have flawless, pristine trust for each other the entirety of those 42 years. Especially in the beginning, when my mom was still reeling a bit from her first failed marriage, etc.
It's a beautiful sentiment, but... in my view, not entirely realistic, no. And that's okay! In fact, the messiness and uncertainty and humanity of it makes it all the more real. You don't fully trust, but you say fuck it and love anyway.
OK—but, also... your last paragraph was burying the lede a little bit. To me, this doesn't seem like the kind of conversation that would naturally devolve to him yelling in your face?! How did he react when you stood up, trembling? If he didn't immediately see his mistake and apologize... I would definitely recommend reserving your trust for a while longer in this relationship. Also, please do not minimize your fear. Listen to it!
posted by gold bridges at 8:56 AM on December 12, 2022 [47 favorites]
I agree 100% about the yelling and honestly, 4 months in - I think I would consider walking away.
That said, after 28 years of marriage involving loss of a child and other things that have rocked our foundation:
they would say they *know* for a *fact* that they 100% trust the other person to never do something that would hurt them, and that they each *will* for a *fact* love and be committed to their spouse forever
...I'm not sure this is realistic exactly. In our marriage quite honestly I'm the one that's come closest to cheating, but we've each had our moments, and we've always turned towards each other. That's not the same, however, as never doing "anything that would hurt them." We've each done things that have hurt each other. They just haven't been unrecoverable. Cheating is just...one bad thing you can do.
Additionally, for me...I am committed to my husband for life, thick and thin, as long as our marriage is healthy and we love each other. But there was a year where I did not feel that was the case and so instead I committed to working on it as hard as we could.
But if things had not improved, I would have ended the marriage...and that line in the sand, that it's not enough to be committed to each other but that it's a commitment to a good marriage, is really important to me. I would not enter into a relationship with someone who wasn't prepared to leave me if they were really unhappy with me.
Would I say that to my kids? Not really, not while they're not in need of that information. As far as they are concerned we have a great marriage that's always been great and we're committed forever. Hopefully, most importantly, they see and feel that. But the work of it underneath...a lot of that takes place away from them, because we're their parents. So...consider the source a bit too.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:59 AM on December 12, 2022 [53 favorites]
That said, after 28 years of marriage involving loss of a child and other things that have rocked our foundation:
they would say they *know* for a *fact* that they 100% trust the other person to never do something that would hurt them, and that they each *will* for a *fact* love and be committed to their spouse forever
...I'm not sure this is realistic exactly. In our marriage quite honestly I'm the one that's come closest to cheating, but we've each had our moments, and we've always turned towards each other. That's not the same, however, as never doing "anything that would hurt them." We've each done things that have hurt each other. They just haven't been unrecoverable. Cheating is just...one bad thing you can do.
Additionally, for me...I am committed to my husband for life, thick and thin, as long as our marriage is healthy and we love each other. But there was a year where I did not feel that was the case and so instead I committed to working on it as hard as we could.
But if things had not improved, I would have ended the marriage...and that line in the sand, that it's not enough to be committed to each other but that it's a commitment to a good marriage, is really important to me. I would not enter into a relationship with someone who wasn't prepared to leave me if they were really unhappy with me.
Would I say that to my kids? Not really, not while they're not in need of that information. As far as they are concerned we have a great marriage that's always been great and we're committed forever. Hopefully, most importantly, they see and feel that. But the work of it underneath...a lot of that takes place away from them, because we're their parents. So...consider the source a bit too.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:59 AM on December 12, 2022 [53 favorites]
IMO it seems like you two have different communication styles, and you don't actually value honest communication as much as you say. If he says there is a .000000001% or whatever chance of falling out of love and/or cheating, then accept that as his honest answer. You seem to be the one asking for 'wuv' or whatever, not honesty.
Also, people who are married yell sometimes. It sucks, but it's true. If that's a red flag, then like 99% of people shouldn't be married. Also, you are occasionally going to hurt the person you are married to because you are a separate person from them, and occasionally have separate desires, and someone has to budge. That's life.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:06 AM on December 12, 2022 [30 favorites]
Also, people who are married yell sometimes. It sucks, but it's true. If that's a red flag, then like 99% of people shouldn't be married. Also, you are occasionally going to hurt the person you are married to because you are a separate person from them, and occasionally have separate desires, and someone has to budge. That's life.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:06 AM on December 12, 2022 [30 favorites]
I have to admit I would be somewhat alarmed if, four month into a relationship, my partner told me they were certain they would never fall out of love with me. That just feels very, very soon to me personally.
But on the flip side: cheating is a conscious choice, and I would NOT stick around with anyone who talked about cheating as something that “just happens.”
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:07 AM on December 12, 2022 [34 favorites]
But on the flip side: cheating is a conscious choice, and I would NOT stick around with anyone who talked about cheating as something that “just happens.”
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:07 AM on December 12, 2022 [34 favorites]
I think using your parents' marriage as an example by which to measure your relationship is unrealistic. When I had been dating my now husband of almost 20 years for 4 months, I barely knew him let alone enough to blindly state that I 100% trusted him not to cheat. It seems way too early in a relationship to even be making these kinds of pronouncements AND to be questioning the viability of the relationship on that basis alone.
The more concerning issue, IMHO is the yelling AT YOU. If he cannot discuss what is essentially a hypothetical situation without yelling, he has some major issues communicating that will not get better without formal therapy.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 9:09 AM on December 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
The more concerning issue, IMHO is the yelling AT YOU. If he cannot discuss what is essentially a hypothetical situation without yelling, he has some major issues communicating that will not get better without formal therapy.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 9:09 AM on December 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
There's raising your voice in an argument...which most humans do at some point or other --and then there's getting into your face in an intimidating way and yelling at you. If he made you feel physically threatened, that is a major red flag, and I would worry far more about that, than about whether he'll someday maybe cheat or fall out of love with you.
In fact, I would table the latter question until you fix the first thing. Who cares if a guy whose anger frightens you believes in true love??? Worry about that when you find someone who makes you feel safe, not scared.
posted by invincible summer at 9:15 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
In fact, I would table the latter question until you fix the first thing. Who cares if a guy whose anger frightens you believes in true love??? Worry about that when you find someone who makes you feel safe, not scared.
posted by invincible summer at 9:15 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
You have a completely unrealistic standard for romantic relationships in which you can not even tolerate a nanoscale level possibility that a human being might change in a couple to the extent that they might end the relationship or harm it. That you can not even allow this as a conceptual possibility in a conversation about hypotheticals would be severely frustrating and, to the extent that you insisted on it, enraging. You are demanding perfection of thought as well as behavior in any romantic partner, including your present one. Let go of this absurd demand.
posted by desert exile at 9:19 AM on December 12, 2022 [55 favorites]
posted by desert exile at 9:19 AM on December 12, 2022 [55 favorites]
Someone who yells at you only 4 months into a relationship is 99.999999% likely to do it again and escalate next time.
Get out of this. He's not a good person for you.
posted by phunniemee at 9:27 AM on December 12, 2022 [27 favorites]
Get out of this. He's not a good person for you.
posted by phunniemee at 9:27 AM on December 12, 2022 [27 favorites]
Reading your ask, i think that this issue of being 99% sure etc comes down to life experience. He has 20+ years more of experience, being mid-fifties. I am 57. when i was mid thirties things like true forever love, promises etc, seemed doable and right. However, 20+ years later a certain realism set in. People sometimes do things they never thought they might do. I don't think this is a reason to end the relationship but i think you should consider if being at such different levels of life experience is something you want.
posted by 15L06 at 9:33 AM on December 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by 15L06 at 9:33 AM on December 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
I think the various opinions on yelling are both a function of various perspectives and the fact that we weren't there. But you definitely need to talk to tell him that it scared you. I would judge him more on his response to that than on the initial action. It's true that virtually all people in relationships, being human, yell and make other mistakes. But decent people recognize an error, apologize, and work to improve.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:37 AM on December 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:37 AM on December 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
I know he would never put his hands on me, and he said the same (that he himself would never put his hands on me).
Just for what it's worth...I think this is not very reassuring. How many people here have heard the same from a partner who ended up putting their hands on them??
He's also giving himself permission to take things out on you as long as it doesn't reach the point of x. But what you might find if you spend more time with him is that x is a moving goalpost.
posted by knotty knots at 9:41 AM on December 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
Just for what it's worth...I think this is not very reassuring. How many people here have heard the same from a partner who ended up putting their hands on them??
He's also giving himself permission to take things out on you as long as it doesn't reach the point of x. But what you might find if you spend more time with him is that x is a moving goalpost.
posted by knotty knots at 9:41 AM on December 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
I think you are being unreasonable about the first point, yes. Relationships take huge amounts of work and mutual dedication. Even under the very best of circumstances people can grow in the relationship and sometimes that means growing in different directions. All the love in the world doesn't mean the relationship hasn't reached its natural end sometimes. If both people have outgrown the relationship, and the parting is done well, isn't that also a successful relationship? Forever and always is a great goal but not always realistic. It's what I yearn for in my next relationship, but I understand that even if I'm never going to fall out of love with someone that there are a lot of factors that can end relationships ranging from life change to addiction to just growing far apart enough in a healthy way that we've outgrown the relationship.
I do think cheating is a choice and thus can be avoided. But people are not always rational or logical machines, our past damage and baggage can lead to making very dumb choices. No matter how self-destructive a choice seems, it was made for a reason and had some sort of payoff at the time. So no, there's absolutely no guarantee that someone will stick with fairy tale love no matter what. No matter how great or serious their intentions are sometimes relationships end. That's life.
Now, uh, hi buried lede. You put yelled in all capitals so it's clearly affecting you heavily. An age gap big enough to be defined as a generation gap plus this occurring four months into a relationship Plus that's not sounding at all like the type of discussion that deserves yelling is a huge red flag.
posted by Jacen at 9:42 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
I do think cheating is a choice and thus can be avoided. But people are not always rational or logical machines, our past damage and baggage can lead to making very dumb choices. No matter how self-destructive a choice seems, it was made for a reason and had some sort of payoff at the time. So no, there's absolutely no guarantee that someone will stick with fairy tale love no matter what. No matter how great or serious their intentions are sometimes relationships end. That's life.
Now, uh, hi buried lede. You put yelled in all capitals so it's clearly affecting you heavily. An age gap big enough to be defined as a generation gap plus this occurring four months into a relationship Plus that's not sounding at all like the type of discussion that deserves yelling is a huge red flag.
posted by Jacen at 9:42 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
I do not think this relationship is a good fit, no. Whether or not either of you are being "realistic" is not the point - you're asking for a statement of commitment, and he's not willing to give you one. I don't think either of you are wrong, necessarily, although I definitely know who I agree with, but it's very clear that the argument escalating to the point of yelling means that you are completely failing to communicate your actual needs. Four months in, that's a *very* bad sign.
He doesn't find the idea of "100%" reassuring - in fact it sounds like he finds it destabilizing, an unrealistic expectation that's setting the relationship up to fail - and you find the idea of "100%" comforting and safe, whether or not you actually believe it intellectually. This is a pretty big point of difference that has zero to do with the actual possibility of cheating.
I think you really need to spend some time, probably on your own, thinking through your ideas of commitment and security. Is a relationship valueless because it ends? Because cheating happened on one side or the other? Is it worth even being in a relationship if there's a minute possibility that it *will* end before death? Because... come on. You know that possibility always exists, whatever promises people make. No promise can erase it. So... then what? It's a question worth sitting with for a while.
(I do not have any particular opinion about the yelling, because I don't have enough information. Even the calmest person can get frustrated and yell, and it sure sounds like this was a fucking infuriating circular argument. But you *were* there, and if you find you don't feel safe any more, then bail. It's four months - it's exactly when you start hitting points of incompatibility, whether they're about argument styles or philosophy.)
posted by restless_nomad at 9:43 AM on December 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
He doesn't find the idea of "100%" reassuring - in fact it sounds like he finds it destabilizing, an unrealistic expectation that's setting the relationship up to fail - and you find the idea of "100%" comforting and safe, whether or not you actually believe it intellectually. This is a pretty big point of difference that has zero to do with the actual possibility of cheating.
I think you really need to spend some time, probably on your own, thinking through your ideas of commitment and security. Is a relationship valueless because it ends? Because cheating happened on one side or the other? Is it worth even being in a relationship if there's a minute possibility that it *will* end before death? Because... come on. You know that possibility always exists, whatever promises people make. No promise can erase it. So... then what? It's a question worth sitting with for a while.
(I do not have any particular opinion about the yelling, because I don't have enough information. Even the calmest person can get frustrated and yell, and it sure sounds like this was a fucking infuriating circular argument. But you *were* there, and if you find you don't feel safe any more, then bail. It's four months - it's exactly when you start hitting points of incompatibility, whether they're about argument styles or philosophy.)
posted by restless_nomad at 9:43 AM on December 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
I mean, you can trust someone 100%, but your trust is not a predictor of their behaviour. People change, and commitment doesn't lock in how someone feels.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:44 AM on December 12, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 9:44 AM on December 12, 2022 [28 favorites]
Also I'll just add if you can't trust his .00001% or whatever not to cheat then you really really can't trust his "would never put his hands on you." Please just get out now while it's easy.
posted by phunniemee at 9:49 AM on December 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 9:49 AM on December 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
Best answer: One of the things that is really confusing me here is that this:
, fall out of love with their partner, find that they no longer want to be committed to their partner, etc
happens in most relationships, and has nothing to do with cheating. Most of us will only have one or two relationships that don't suffer that fate (and that one or two may still go through it and recover), and it still has nothing to do with cheating. You cannot demand that someone never lose their commitment to the relationship, nor is it a thing that one person can promise another, and the whole "promise you'll love me forever" bit is for love songs and movies that end approximately 20 minutes into the actual relationship.
You also, separately, cannot prevent someone from ever cheating. All you can say is that your position is that the relationship is over if they do, and that you expect a general commitment to not do that which is tied to probably a series of conversations (to start from, and as check-ins as needed throughout the relationship) about what actually connotes monogamy for the purposes of your relationship, because one person's "monogamy" is another person's "what do you mean I can't speak to opposite-sex coworkers without a witness??" Cheating isn't the only way people end relationships, either; most times there's just a break-up.
So, if you were being THAT literal-minded that a zillionth of a percent of uncertainty was unacceptable to you, and THAT naive about how long-term relationships work, I can see where you might have come across as demanding an impossible amount of commitment from someone trying very hard to make a reasonable commitment to you, and that could be quite frustrating.
Getting in your face is a level of aggression that is not okay, however, and choosing "well, I won't hit you tho" instead of "it was inexcusable for me to get in your face and I absolutely do not intend to ever do that again, I need to go deal with that problem", is...quite a choice.
Incidentally, you are holding your parents to an impossible standard that's not serving you well. People hurt each other sometimes. It can easily be an accident or an act of carelessness or a misread cue or a cultural difference, but even well-meaning people let each other down sometimes and you will let other people down sometimes and you work through it when it happens rather than dwelling over the fact that it happened at all, which is what you are setting yourself up for with this 100% nonsense. Humans get stressed, scared, tired, hangry, sick, shocked, traumatized, and confused sometimes, and you have to let people be human and fallible and not always bringing their 100%. I guarantee your parents know this too, if their whole thing isn't a big facade of denial. Real love is about knowing the other person might let you down - and you might let them down - but being willing to show up and make the effort anyway, it's not about infallibility.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:00 AM on December 12, 2022 [71 favorites]
, fall out of love with their partner, find that they no longer want to be committed to their partner, etc
happens in most relationships, and has nothing to do with cheating. Most of us will only have one or two relationships that don't suffer that fate (and that one or two may still go through it and recover), and it still has nothing to do with cheating. You cannot demand that someone never lose their commitment to the relationship, nor is it a thing that one person can promise another, and the whole "promise you'll love me forever" bit is for love songs and movies that end approximately 20 minutes into the actual relationship.
You also, separately, cannot prevent someone from ever cheating. All you can say is that your position is that the relationship is over if they do, and that you expect a general commitment to not do that which is tied to probably a series of conversations (to start from, and as check-ins as needed throughout the relationship) about what actually connotes monogamy for the purposes of your relationship, because one person's "monogamy" is another person's "what do you mean I can't speak to opposite-sex coworkers without a witness??" Cheating isn't the only way people end relationships, either; most times there's just a break-up.
So, if you were being THAT literal-minded that a zillionth of a percent of uncertainty was unacceptable to you, and THAT naive about how long-term relationships work, I can see where you might have come across as demanding an impossible amount of commitment from someone trying very hard to make a reasonable commitment to you, and that could be quite frustrating.
Getting in your face is a level of aggression that is not okay, however, and choosing "well, I won't hit you tho" instead of "it was inexcusable for me to get in your face and I absolutely do not intend to ever do that again, I need to go deal with that problem", is...quite a choice.
Incidentally, you are holding your parents to an impossible standard that's not serving you well. People hurt each other sometimes. It can easily be an accident or an act of carelessness or a misread cue or a cultural difference, but even well-meaning people let each other down sometimes and you will let other people down sometimes and you work through it when it happens rather than dwelling over the fact that it happened at all, which is what you are setting yourself up for with this 100% nonsense. Humans get stressed, scared, tired, hangry, sick, shocked, traumatized, and confused sometimes, and you have to let people be human and fallible and not always bringing their 100%. I guarantee your parents know this too, if their whole thing isn't a big facade of denial. Real love is about knowing the other person might let you down - and you might let them down - but being willing to show up and make the effort anyway, it's not about infallibility.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:00 AM on December 12, 2022 [71 favorites]
I think the danger here is that you are a bit naive about relationships and your boyfriend clearly has a rage problem that can and likely will escalate to physical violence over time. Age disparate relationships can and do work but that’s a red herring. He’s had 22 more years than you to work on his communication style but continues to be aggressive. Saying he doesn’t want to be like his dad is meaningless unless it’s backed by action.
posted by smorgasbord at 10:08 AM on December 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 10:08 AM on December 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
The 100% or nothing does seem naive but this statement is equally black and white: "I know he would never put his hands on me, and he said the same (that he himself would never put his hands on me)."
Maybe you can know this after four years, but you can't know this after four months. Screaming in your face? I mean, it's been 25 years and my cis male partner has never come close to doing this to me. 🚩
posted by Threeve at 10:12 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
Maybe you can know this after four years, but you can't know this after four months. Screaming in your face? I mean, it's been 25 years and my cis male partner has never come close to doing this to me. 🚩
posted by Threeve at 10:12 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
I think you get on some cellular level that this person is not someone you want to stay with. The way you've constructed the question by burying the "he yelled at me" lede makes me think you're looking for us to say you should end this.
You should end this, but only because the floodgates of yelling at you have now been opened. They're damn hard to close.
Just get out now.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 10:13 AM on December 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
You should end this, but only because the floodgates of yelling at you have now been opened. They're damn hard to close.
Just get out now.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 10:13 AM on December 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
Well, I think it's totally okay that you want what you want. And yes, you might find that the nuances of it change over time. I don't understand why this conversation about hypotheticals got so heated.
You all haven't been dating that long, and you don't know each other that well (conventional dating wisdom is give it a year before you make major decisions about things like moving in together or other major relationship escalations). Early dating is exactly for this: to get to know someone and to figure out if your feelings and goals align well enough to give it a longer term goal.
And you know what you've found? Your goals don't align -- not because of the .000001% technicality, but because he scared you. That anger that he says is well-controlled? It's not. He says that "when he feels anger coming on like that, he does x & y." But what has he done to manage that anger in other ways?
Early dating is a time to get to know each other, to find out who someone is. You are finding out that you are dating a man more than two decades older who has anger management problems and that comes out even in hypothetical conversations about commitment. You don't have to know him more or understand him better to know this isn't good or what you want. It will only get worse.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:14 AM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
You all haven't been dating that long, and you don't know each other that well (conventional dating wisdom is give it a year before you make major decisions about things like moving in together or other major relationship escalations). Early dating is exactly for this: to get to know someone and to figure out if your feelings and goals align well enough to give it a longer term goal.
And you know what you've found? Your goals don't align -- not because of the .000001% technicality, but because he scared you. That anger that he says is well-controlled? It's not. He says that "when he feels anger coming on like that, he does x & y." But what has he done to manage that anger in other ways?
Early dating is a time to get to know each other, to find out who someone is. You are finding out that you are dating a man more than two decades older who has anger management problems and that comes out even in hypothetical conversations about commitment. You don't have to know him more or understand him better to know this isn't good or what you want. It will only get worse.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:14 AM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
You two do not seem like a good match. Yelling is a red flag but so is demanding 100% devotion four months into a relationship! I don’t know that your relationship expectations are unrealistic *generally*. They are however unrealistic and concerning for barely knowing this person. Therapy can’t hurt, it will help you to dig into these issues so that future relationships are more successful for you.
posted by scantee at 10:16 AM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by scantee at 10:16 AM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Two things strike me:
This guy is 55. Getting angry enough to bend over and yell a word into someone's face is not behavior that I would expect from an adult in any but the most extreme, intense situation (like, you're arguing about some very intense medical or financial decision that has everyone completely unglued). I'm in my forties and it seems like extremely bizarre, unsettling behavior from someone my age, never mind someone older.
You sound very young in this question - younger than 33. The worry about language differences between 99.9999999999 and 100%, the feeling that others can't be relied on if they are only very certain about something but don't literally say the magic words 100%, the general sense that you are drawing heavily on rubrics rather than on your own experience of people. That's fine, we all integrate life experience at different rates and because of my own upbringing and life in general, I'm pretty "young" for my age in terms of emotions and confidence in dealing with people. But it makes me worry when you are dating someone who is 22 years older than you and yell-y. It makes me concerned that not only did he seek out a much younger female partner but that he also sought out a partner who is still feeling out how to date successfully and what to put up with from a boyfriend.
This whole thing sounds bad, frankly.
posted by Frowner at 10:20 AM on December 12, 2022 [58 favorites]
This guy is 55. Getting angry enough to bend over and yell a word into someone's face is not behavior that I would expect from an adult in any but the most extreme, intense situation (like, you're arguing about some very intense medical or financial decision that has everyone completely unglued). I'm in my forties and it seems like extremely bizarre, unsettling behavior from someone my age, never mind someone older.
You sound very young in this question - younger than 33. The worry about language differences between 99.9999999999 and 100%, the feeling that others can't be relied on if they are only very certain about something but don't literally say the magic words 100%, the general sense that you are drawing heavily on rubrics rather than on your own experience of people. That's fine, we all integrate life experience at different rates and because of my own upbringing and life in general, I'm pretty "young" for my age in terms of emotions and confidence in dealing with people. But it makes me worry when you are dating someone who is 22 years older than you and yell-y. It makes me concerned that not only did he seek out a much younger female partner but that he also sought out a partner who is still feeling out how to date successfully and what to put up with from a boyfriend.
This whole thing sounds bad, frankly.
posted by Frowner at 10:20 AM on December 12, 2022 [58 favorites]
I feel his yelling instilled a deep sense of fear in you and your instincts are telling you to run. Those same fearful instincts are also deploying your logical brain to come up with a logical reason to break up with him which is why you are fixating on the 100% vs 99.9% thing, which to me just comes down to someone's intellectual outlook and whether they tend to be more skeptical or more idealistic.
Either way is, your instincts are there to protect you, and you should listen to them. Some decisions do require a lot of logical reasoning and hashing out of pros and cons but when your body gives you such a clear signal that this is not a safe person to be with, listen very carefully to that signal because. It's the old saying "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you"..... Just because you have had abusive partners in the past and are extra sensitive to danger, doesn't mean you should ignore your instincts. Actually it's possible your instincts are even more honed and more accurate because of that? Either way, listen to what your body is telling you, examine the feelings and thoughts you're experiencing, fully. What is the nature of the fear, what is the sensation of threat? And you may find that it's impossible to be in a safe loving relationship with the same person who makes you feel threatened like that. Because that is not something you should ever have to feel in a relationship.
posted by winterportage at 10:25 AM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Either way is, your instincts are there to protect you, and you should listen to them. Some decisions do require a lot of logical reasoning and hashing out of pros and cons but when your body gives you such a clear signal that this is not a safe person to be with, listen very carefully to that signal because. It's the old saying "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you"..... Just because you have had abusive partners in the past and are extra sensitive to danger, doesn't mean you should ignore your instincts. Actually it's possible your instincts are even more honed and more accurate because of that? Either way, listen to what your body is telling you, examine the feelings and thoughts you're experiencing, fully. What is the nature of the fear, what is the sensation of threat? And you may find that it's impossible to be in a safe loving relationship with the same person who makes you feel threatened like that. Because that is not something you should ever have to feel in a relationship.
posted by winterportage at 10:25 AM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Other have mentioned the yelling. It’s not something I’d leave a relationship over, but ymmv.
I personally think your expectations are unrealistic and they would be a red flag for me. Possibly because I’ve been in abusive relationships, I would view that expectation of trust and devotion at this stage to be manipulative. I’m not saying those are your motivations but I wanted to share my opinion and give you context.
posted by Pretty Good Talker at 10:26 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
I personally think your expectations are unrealistic and they would be a red flag for me. Possibly because I’ve been in abusive relationships, I would view that expectation of trust and devotion at this stage to be manipulative. I’m not saying those are your motivations but I wanted to share my opinion and give you context.
posted by Pretty Good Talker at 10:26 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
Ugh. When you are 33 and you 55 year old partner REFUSES to give you reassurance about something important to you based on a .0000000000000000000000000001% chance it might happen???? Run away. Just run away. He’s not dating women his own age, or even women in their 40’s for a reason. I’m sorry to have to tell you that. You will never find peace here. He’s had another 20 years on this planet to realize that most things work out fine, and most people are good (or not) and instead of just being optimistic and being happy he met you he’s giving you a hard time about this topic. I dated older guys when I was younger and this would be a very BAD sign.
posted by catspajammies at 10:27 AM on December 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by catspajammies at 10:27 AM on December 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
I really would like to know others' perspectives on this, especially those who are in long-term, happy and committed relationships. Do you recognize and acknowledge the possibility that your partner could in fact cheat on you one day (even through extreme circumstances like having a lobotomy or being driven insane, and they are suddenly a completely different person)?
Look setting aside anything about this particular guy, just addressing your question above: I don't even need to imagine the extreme circumstances to imagine that. After decades in relationships of various lengths and types, I can very confidently say that the majority of cheating happens absent traumatic brain injury or mental illness. It happens in the most boring, pedestrian of ways, fueled by a heady influx of brain chemicals sometimes or by a lot of unexpressed anger/resentment, or by a deep unaddressed need, and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't rare or dramatic at all.
People say love is a verb and i think trust is also a verb. Just like you decide to treat your partner well, to stick to the terms of your relationship (or not), to express your feelings, etc., you also choose to give your partner privacy. You choose not to monitor their friendships and messages and location. You encourage and show expression of thoughts and feelings but choose not to interrogate them. You decide to trust your partner not because you have some guarantee that they will be perfectly devoted to you forever, but because a lack of trust actually can't protect you from anything.
Also I would second the post above that you don't necessarily know as much about your parents' marriage as you think you do. I'm not saying they DON'T adore each other of course, just that it's unlikely they told you about that dark night of the soul they had in 1992, or the coworker whose emails got a littttttttle dicey, etc., etc.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:27 AM on December 12, 2022 [20 favorites]
Look setting aside anything about this particular guy, just addressing your question above: I don't even need to imagine the extreme circumstances to imagine that. After decades in relationships of various lengths and types, I can very confidently say that the majority of cheating happens absent traumatic brain injury or mental illness. It happens in the most boring, pedestrian of ways, fueled by a heady influx of brain chemicals sometimes or by a lot of unexpressed anger/resentment, or by a deep unaddressed need, and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't rare or dramatic at all.
People say love is a verb and i think trust is also a verb. Just like you decide to treat your partner well, to stick to the terms of your relationship (or not), to express your feelings, etc., you also choose to give your partner privacy. You choose not to monitor their friendships and messages and location. You encourage and show expression of thoughts and feelings but choose not to interrogate them. You decide to trust your partner not because you have some guarantee that they will be perfectly devoted to you forever, but because a lack of trust actually can't protect you from anything.
Also I would second the post above that you don't necessarily know as much about your parents' marriage as you think you do. I'm not saying they DON'T adore each other of course, just that it's unlikely they told you about that dark night of the soul they had in 1992, or the coworker whose emails got a littttttttle dicey, etc., etc.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:27 AM on December 12, 2022 [20 favorites]
This is how a 50 plus boyfriend needs to explain to a younger girlfriend about things not lasting, I pulled this from my old old old emails, it didn’t last many many years but this is the NICE way to say things:
We have to acknowledge and realize the fact that relationships don't always last for ever, though we, for the moment can't tell why not :) In other words lets just enjoy each other as long as it last, hopefully for many, many years
posted by catspajammies at 10:35 AM on December 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
We have to acknowledge and realize the fact that relationships don't always last for ever, though we, for the moment can't tell why not :) In other words lets just enjoy each other as long as it last, hopefully for many, many years
posted by catspajammies at 10:35 AM on December 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
It happens in the most boring, pedestrian of ways, fueled by a heady influx of brain chemicals sometimes or by a lot of unexpressed anger/resentment, or by a deep unaddressed need, and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't rare or dramatic at all.
So like as an example of this, and how it would maybe apply to you: You stay with this guy, somehow. For years and years and years. And yet, he never really comes around to be quite on the same page as you about certainty. But you decided your positions are unreasonable. You tell yourself that this is really about probability and cheating and such when what it really is, is a deep, unaddressed need in you for your partner to make you feel safe, trusted, and trusting. 15 years from now your partner is a legit senior citizen and you are still kind of in the prime of things, and you find someone who inexplicably has no problem meeting your need to feel safe, trusted, and trusting. Just, a friend or a coworker or whatever, who through his words and actions happens to fill a decades-old lack.
I promise you, you're not prepared for how your mind and body and heart will react to that! Nobody is. And that's why people aren't necessarily lying when they say cheating "just happens." It's because the groundwork for it can be quietly set in place for years, and get triggered when one least expects it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:46 AM on December 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
So like as an example of this, and how it would maybe apply to you: You stay with this guy, somehow. For years and years and years. And yet, he never really comes around to be quite on the same page as you about certainty. But you decided your positions are unreasonable. You tell yourself that this is really about probability and cheating and such when what it really is, is a deep, unaddressed need in you for your partner to make you feel safe, trusted, and trusting. 15 years from now your partner is a legit senior citizen and you are still kind of in the prime of things, and you find someone who inexplicably has no problem meeting your need to feel safe, trusted, and trusting. Just, a friend or a coworker or whatever, who through his words and actions happens to fill a decades-old lack.
I promise you, you're not prepared for how your mind and body and heart will react to that! Nobody is. And that's why people aren't necessarily lying when they say cheating "just happens." It's because the groundwork for it can be quietly set in place for years, and get triggered when one least expects it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:46 AM on December 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think everyone else has adequately addressed the yelling thing, which is on its own reason enough to decide you two aren't compatible. That's not the only red flag here from either of you though. You have been together for four months. You've known each other for five. That's barely anything! And yet you're both talking about 100% absolute and complete trust? Yeah, I think you're setting unrealistic expectations at a very early point of your relationship, and you're framing things in terms of absolutes in a way that would make many partners or potential partners uncomfortable.
A relationship is not a static thing, it's something you enact and build every day, together. You seem to be framing it more as a kind of pre-existing, perfect monument. That's not something most relationships can live up to, and I know, I personally, would be really uncomfortable with someone demanding 100%s from me in this way after only a few months, not because I think I would or could cheat, and not because I think it's unrealistic or bad to expect and demand commitment, but simply because it's speaks of putting love and relationships on a kind of pedestal when the reality is far more messy. Your trust is your own to give however you like, but trust is also earned, and it is built. Going 100% all in with it so quickly is somewhat precipitous, and if that's the expectation you bring to every new relationship, I would say, yeah, that's not entirely realistic. You need to give it time to grow, and you should probably do some work with yourself when it comes to needing the safety of absolutes.
posted by yasaman at 10:51 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
A relationship is not a static thing, it's something you enact and build every day, together. You seem to be framing it more as a kind of pre-existing, perfect monument. That's not something most relationships can live up to, and I know, I personally, would be really uncomfortable with someone demanding 100%s from me in this way after only a few months, not because I think I would or could cheat, and not because I think it's unrealistic or bad to expect and demand commitment, but simply because it's speaks of putting love and relationships on a kind of pedestal when the reality is far more messy. Your trust is your own to give however you like, but trust is also earned, and it is built. Going 100% all in with it so quickly is somewhat precipitous, and if that's the expectation you bring to every new relationship, I would say, yeah, that's not entirely realistic. You need to give it time to grow, and you should probably do some work with yourself when it comes to needing the safety of absolutes.
posted by yasaman at 10:51 AM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
Personally, I think your expectations are unrealistic and that you aren't asking for the additional .000000001% of trust, but for them to know they should tactfully lie about this sort of thing because it's more romantic and loving to you than them expressing any doubt about the relationship or the future.
Your disagreement isn't really about cheating, but it is about certainty in the world. They are telling you they trust you and himself as much as they thinks it is humanly possible to trust anyone but that that number is not 100% and they don't see it as possible to commit to anything in the future 100% because that's not how the future or human nature works to them.
Your disagreement isn't about cheating, but it is also about communication and openness. You want openness and honesty in a relationship, but then when your partner expresses even the tiniest amount of doubt about whether your future is 100% guaranteed to be cheating free, that's unacceptable to you. So they are given the choice between a white lie to smooth over the disagreement or you getting mad at them for telling the truth.
I agree with others that the yelling is a bad sign and you should be wary of your partner. But if your partner had asked the same question, I would tell them that asking for open communication and then punishing them for engaging in it is a bad sign and they should be wary of you.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:53 AM on December 12, 2022 [23 favorites]
Your disagreement isn't really about cheating, but it is about certainty in the world. They are telling you they trust you and himself as much as they thinks it is humanly possible to trust anyone but that that number is not 100% and they don't see it as possible to commit to anything in the future 100% because that's not how the future or human nature works to them.
Your disagreement isn't about cheating, but it is also about communication and openness. You want openness and honesty in a relationship, but then when your partner expresses even the tiniest amount of doubt about whether your future is 100% guaranteed to be cheating free, that's unacceptable to you. So they are given the choice between a white lie to smooth over the disagreement or you getting mad at them for telling the truth.
I agree with others that the yelling is a bad sign and you should be wary of your partner. But if your partner had asked the same question, I would tell them that asking for open communication and then punishing them for engaging in it is a bad sign and they should be wary of you.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:53 AM on December 12, 2022 [23 favorites]
Yes, I think your relationship expectations are way too high. If someone demanded that I promise them that I'd never fall out of love with them after four months of dating, that would be a red flag to me. You can't compare your 4 month relationship to your parents' 40 year relationship. As they say, trust needs to be earned. And that doesn't just go for individuals, but relationships - many people can't fully trust a relationship until it's weathered a few fights, stressors, or rough patches - there is a reason many people live together before getting married. I trust my partner of six years more now than I did 4 months in, not because he's measurably more trustworthy, but simply because I now have evidence of our ability to resolve disputes, handle life stress together, etc.
I also think you are likely romanticizing your parents' relationship to a degree that's unhealthy. I'm not saying they don't love each other! But all parents hide something from their kids. I would bet all of my savings that they've had fights and least one rough patch you don't know about.
On yelling: In my opinion Metafilter is overly quick to judge people who yell - the fact he yelled one word does not strike me as a big deal per se, though perhaps not great 4 months in when people should be on their best behavior - though to be honest, if someone was pushing and pushing me to agree that I was 100% committed for life to them, I would likely eventually snap and yell too. I am not saying you should stay in this relationship, but if you do, I'd suggest asking your partner to say to you directly "hey, I can feel myself about to snap in frustration from this argument" and then you need to both respect that and give each other some space to cool down. This has been effective for my partner and myself.
posted by coffeecat at 10:57 AM on December 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
I also think you are likely romanticizing your parents' relationship to a degree that's unhealthy. I'm not saying they don't love each other! But all parents hide something from their kids. I would bet all of my savings that they've had fights and least one rough patch you don't know about.
On yelling: In my opinion Metafilter is overly quick to judge people who yell - the fact he yelled one word does not strike me as a big deal per se, though perhaps not great 4 months in when people should be on their best behavior - though to be honest, if someone was pushing and pushing me to agree that I was 100% committed for life to them, I would likely eventually snap and yell too. I am not saying you should stay in this relationship, but if you do, I'd suggest asking your partner to say to you directly "hey, I can feel myself about to snap in frustration from this argument" and then you need to both respect that and give each other some space to cool down. This has been effective for my partner and myself.
posted by coffeecat at 10:57 AM on December 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
I think you’ve been given a lot of good advice to think about, but I wanted to raise one particular issue about the relationship model you see in your parents. People communicate very differently about their relationship depending on who they are speaking with. To you, your parents may make these emphatic statements (because they are reassuring you that your family is stable, because they don’t want to talk about troubles with their kid, because they want you to have high standards for yourself, etc), but that doesn’t mean they might not have more nuance when discussing it with their friends, each other, or themselves.
Communication is as much about our emotional needs as it is about the “data” being communicated. When your parents tell you they are 100%, I think they probably mean to communicate an emotional truth more than a literal expectation of fact. I think you might desire to hear that 100% from your partner for the same reason. Similarly, it’s possible that your boyfriend is unable to make that statement because he doesn’t want to communicate that emotional truth, because he doesn’t feel it, and all this back-and-forth about brain damage is a way to avoid that emotional core. (The fact of the extremely inappropriate yelling is what convinces me this isn’t a mere disagreement on his part about rational predictions.)
I don’t think you are wrong or immature to want a relationship in which you feel emotionally reassured and cared for. I do think that it is a bad sign for both of your communication skills that this discussion has gone on so long, and caused so much distress, without either of you digging out the emotional center to talk about what you’re really talking about and why.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 11:01 AM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Communication is as much about our emotional needs as it is about the “data” being communicated. When your parents tell you they are 100%, I think they probably mean to communicate an emotional truth more than a literal expectation of fact. I think you might desire to hear that 100% from your partner for the same reason. Similarly, it’s possible that your boyfriend is unable to make that statement because he doesn’t want to communicate that emotional truth, because he doesn’t feel it, and all this back-and-forth about brain damage is a way to avoid that emotional core. (The fact of the extremely inappropriate yelling is what convinces me this isn’t a mere disagreement on his part about rational predictions.)
I don’t think you are wrong or immature to want a relationship in which you feel emotionally reassured and cared for. I do think that it is a bad sign for both of your communication skills that this discussion has gone on so long, and caused so much distress, without either of you digging out the emotional center to talk about what you’re really talking about and why.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 11:01 AM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
My read is that this guy doesn't want to commit to you (and probably doesn't want to commit to anybody) so he fell back on technicalities as a conversational gambit. You continued to push. Upon realizing this was not simply a theoretical conversation to you, but a discussion of your own relationship, he reacted by attempting to intimidate you physically (and he was very successful at intimidating you). This ended the conversation without him having to directly admit that he will never commit to you.
In other words, he was trying to say that it's ok that he doesn't want to commit to you because no one can ever really commit to anyone. He fell back on physical intimidation when consistently challenged on that rhetoric. Do with that what you will.
posted by ewok_academy at 11:21 AM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
In other words, he was trying to say that it's ok that he doesn't want to commit to you because no one can ever really commit to anyone. He fell back on physical intimidation when consistently challenged on that rhetoric. Do with that what you will.
posted by ewok_academy at 11:21 AM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
you reminded me of a time when I found my dear friend crying in her car, while she was visiting me with her boyfriend. She - a person not given to emotional displays - was dissolved, completely distraught. Upon gentle questioning it emerged that she had had a chat almost identical to yours with the boyfriend -- the same theoreticals: his statement that nobody could be 100% sure what would happen in the future; and her catastrophized inference that this meant he was not committed to her.
Anyway, I got her to at least consider that he is just an extremely truthful and precise person, who knows that nobody can ever predict with 100% certainty what will happen in the future. And indeed that was all he meant. He was bewildered, shocked and hurt at her picking a fight with him about his acknowledgment that one can only ever do one's best, which isn't a guarantee.
They are happily and very monogamously married many years later.
(I don't like that he yelled at you; but: one word? He yelled one word? Look, you can break up with anyone for any reason you want, but if you're asking me? No, I wouldn't break up with someone because they yelled one word.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:34 AM on December 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
Anyway, I got her to at least consider that he is just an extremely truthful and precise person, who knows that nobody can ever predict with 100% certainty what will happen in the future. And indeed that was all he meant. He was bewildered, shocked and hurt at her picking a fight with him about his acknowledgment that one can only ever do one's best, which isn't a guarantee.
They are happily and very monogamously married many years later.
(I don't like that he yelled at you; but: one word? He yelled one word? Look, you can break up with anyone for any reason you want, but if you're asking me? No, I wouldn't break up with someone because they yelled one word.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:34 AM on December 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
First, about the yelling, yes, that's the buried lede. That seems like the thing that should be concerning.
Second, about the nominal subject of the question. You have a naïve view of relationships. People change over time. If two people are in a long-term relationship, they hope that they will change on parallel paths, but there's nothing they can do to ensure that. People fall out of love all the time, even after very long and happy relationships. It's normal and it's not anyone's fault. There's no "sin" involved. How you behave when you realize this is happening is another matter.
The fact that your 55-yo boyfriend was indulging your argument on your terms makes me think he's got a naïve view of relationships too, maybe.
posted by adamrice at 11:40 AM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Second, about the nominal subject of the question. You have a naïve view of relationships. People change over time. If two people are in a long-term relationship, they hope that they will change on parallel paths, but there's nothing they can do to ensure that. People fall out of love all the time, even after very long and happy relationships. It's normal and it's not anyone's fault. There's no "sin" involved. How you behave when you realize this is happening is another matter.
The fact that your 55-yo boyfriend was indulging your argument on your terms makes me think he's got a naïve view of relationships too, maybe.
posted by adamrice at 11:40 AM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
A huge percentage of people cheat - 10-25% depending on what studies you read. One conclusion you can draw from that is that those people didn't love each other enough. Another conclusion you can draw is that infidelity is endemic to monogamous relationships, and that people can love their partner fully and still cheat.
I know which conclusion I draw. The first version seems like magical thinking to me: "just love your partner enough and you'll magically never cheat!" The second seems much more realistic. In this reading, monogamy isn't something that just magically happens if you love each other enough, it's something you decide to commit to as a couple and work on as the relationship grows and evolves.
You might want to read Ester Perel's The State of Affairs to get more insight into this way of thinking. I think it'll help you approach this kind of conversation in the future, with this partner or another.
posted by dorothy hawk at 11:53 AM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I know which conclusion I draw. The first version seems like magical thinking to me: "just love your partner enough and you'll magically never cheat!" The second seems much more realistic. In this reading, monogamy isn't something that just magically happens if you love each other enough, it's something you decide to commit to as a couple and work on as the relationship grows and evolves.
You might want to read Ester Perel's The State of Affairs to get more insight into this way of thinking. I think it'll help you approach this kind of conversation in the future, with this partner or another.
posted by dorothy hawk at 11:53 AM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
the fact that it was one word makes it worse IMO? If you're heated and emotional and getting loud, that's one thing, but yelling a single word in someone's face for emphasis strikes me as very much in control
Based on the OP's description of this argument, it sounds like there was a lot of back and forth along the lines of "but if you can be 99.99999% committed for life why not 100%?" and that is the type of argument where a lot of people will make an effort to be calm until they lose patience with the other's person's unwillingness to agree to disagree, but it's also possible to snap and still be somewhat in control. I personally prefer people who are still able to maintain a bit of control over how they express their emotions even when they fail to stop themselves from briefly yelling. For some people, yelling one word is a sort of warning sign that says "look, I'm not kidding when I say I've had enough of this discussion!" - I'm not defending it as a mature response (obviously a better action would have been for the boyfriend to have just left and cooled down), but I don't think it's fair to jump any conclusions that this means anything more than that.
posted by coffeecat at 12:04 PM on December 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
Based on the OP's description of this argument, it sounds like there was a lot of back and forth along the lines of "but if you can be 99.99999% committed for life why not 100%?" and that is the type of argument where a lot of people will make an effort to be calm until they lose patience with the other's person's unwillingness to agree to disagree, but it's also possible to snap and still be somewhat in control. I personally prefer people who are still able to maintain a bit of control over how they express their emotions even when they fail to stop themselves from briefly yelling. For some people, yelling one word is a sort of warning sign that says "look, I'm not kidding when I say I've had enough of this discussion!" - I'm not defending it as a mature response (obviously a better action would have been for the boyfriend to have just left and cooled down), but I don't think it's fair to jump any conclusions that this means anything more than that.
posted by coffeecat at 12:04 PM on December 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
Functionally, what is the difference between 99.99...% and 100%, to you and to him? Because to me it sounds like you re saying almost the same thing in different ways. He's just using overly precise language for you and you're using imprecise language for him. Like, he's accounting for a head injury that causes a severe personality change in one of you, but you're talking about generally if things stay the course how will things go.
Disclaimer: I love my husband and trust him completely and think we'll be together forever. But I wouldn't 100% guarantee things will stay this way forever, because I've known so many people who make big proclamations like that who were really just covering for their insecurities in the situation (not relegated to relationships). Not that everyone who says things like that are insecure, just that enough people are it makes me wary.
The yelling could be concerning, but I can also see it like some people above where if you two had been talking in circles and he shouted "It's IMPOSSIBLE to know for sure," the that's a bit less so.
posted by ghost phoneme at 12:34 PM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Disclaimer: I love my husband and trust him completely and think we'll be together forever. But I wouldn't 100% guarantee things will stay this way forever, because I've known so many people who make big proclamations like that who were really just covering for their insecurities in the situation (not relegated to relationships). Not that everyone who says things like that are insecure, just that enough people are it makes me wary.
The yelling could be concerning, but I can also see it like some people above where if you two had been talking in circles and he shouted "It's IMPOSSIBLE to know for sure," the that's a bit less so.
posted by ghost phoneme at 12:34 PM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
What frowner said, x1000.
The elephant in the room that nobody wants to discuss is that you are dating someone who is old enough to be your father. In fact, I am closer in age to my daughter than you are to your boyfriend. I am not a fan of these kind of relationships (and I have been in them) for a whole host of reasons I will not bore you with now but here's the most basic one: you are at different places in your life. A philosophical do you love me 100% or only 99% is the kind of question that young people in a young relationship might ask each other. This guy has already had this conversation, 25 or more years ago. And if he hasn't, then that's a red flag too, sorry. It's not a question that people in their 50s ask each other. I am a couple years older than this man and I am quite sure that if that sort of thing popped up four months into dating I would laugh unkindly at them, then plan my exit. By the time you're in your fifties you're realistic, or you had better be. The time for weirdly precise hypotheticals is long over. I can completely understand him not wanting to have this conversation (which does not excuse the yelling) - but you need to think hard about whether you want to be with someone who isn't ever going to want to have those sorts of ditzy young love conversations.
These are the questions you should be asking: Where is his ex? Exes? What do you know about his romantic history, his long term relationships? He's as old or older than the parents you are romanticizing, what happened to his forever love?
posted by mygothlaundry at 12:41 PM on December 12, 2022 [46 favorites]
The elephant in the room that nobody wants to discuss is that you are dating someone who is old enough to be your father. In fact, I am closer in age to my daughter than you are to your boyfriend. I am not a fan of these kind of relationships (and I have been in them) for a whole host of reasons I will not bore you with now but here's the most basic one: you are at different places in your life. A philosophical do you love me 100% or only 99% is the kind of question that young people in a young relationship might ask each other. This guy has already had this conversation, 25 or more years ago. And if he hasn't, then that's a red flag too, sorry. It's not a question that people in their 50s ask each other. I am a couple years older than this man and I am quite sure that if that sort of thing popped up four months into dating I would laugh unkindly at them, then plan my exit. By the time you're in your fifties you're realistic, or you had better be. The time for weirdly precise hypotheticals is long over. I can completely understand him not wanting to have this conversation (which does not excuse the yelling) - but you need to think hard about whether you want to be with someone who isn't ever going to want to have those sorts of ditzy young love conversations.
These are the questions you should be asking: Where is his ex? Exes? What do you know about his romantic history, his long term relationships? He's as old or older than the parents you are romanticizing, what happened to his forever love?
posted by mygothlaundry at 12:41 PM on December 12, 2022 [46 favorites]
It stuck out to me that he said he trusts you more than *anyone* after four months, which seems a little weird to me at this stage in his life- is he not close to friends or family?
My parents are like yours, and I think do trust each other completely. I've also trusted that everyone I've dated wouldn't cheat on me, even though I know it's always been theoretically possible. And I wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't feel like they could trust me. I think what you're picking up on is valid--yes, obviously things can go wrong, but I feel like this conversation wouldn't have happened unless he actually does have some issues with trust.
posted by pinochiette at 12:54 PM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
My parents are like yours, and I think do trust each other completely. I've also trusted that everyone I've dated wouldn't cheat on me, even though I know it's always been theoretically possible. And I wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't feel like they could trust me. I think what you're picking up on is valid--yes, obviously things can go wrong, but I feel like this conversation wouldn't have happened unless he actually does have some issues with trust.
posted by pinochiette at 12:54 PM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Honestly this whole argument sounds juvenile and ridiculous, the kind of thing teenagers in their first serious relationship get worked up over. Your view of what anyone can know about their future selves is naive, and your partner is being an idiot in continuing to argue over the difference between 99.9999999999% and 100% instead of addressing your emotional need for reassurance. It's not necessarily wrong to be starry-eyed about romantic relationships, but it's unlikely to work with someone who is impatient with your nonsense.
posted by HotToddy at 12:56 PM on December 12, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 12:56 PM on December 12, 2022 [26 favorites]
In a way it's semantics, but the semantics represent -- for you -- a complete emotional-psychological commitment; that commitment is 100%, and when you say 100%, you're talking about an internal mental state, not the probability model of the world.
Your boyfriend may not understand the distinction between the probabilities in the larger world, and the very real ability for a person to commit 100% to behaving and thinking _as though_ there is only one way forward and that way is with his person.
Even if he understands that distinction in an abstract way, he may not be able to imagine letting himself feel that kind of commitment; he may not know what that feels like, may not know what feelings or mental gestalt switch matches those words; or he may feel safe enough in the world to let himself feel that way.
The semantics -- the words -- are all we have to try to represent what's really going on in our minds, so they do matter.
For this reason, it might be good to get the most emotionally expert person available -- probably a therapist -- to try to help match the words to what's actually going on in your minds and limbic systems.
posted by amtho at 1:11 PM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Your boyfriend may not understand the distinction between the probabilities in the larger world, and the very real ability for a person to commit 100% to behaving and thinking _as though_ there is only one way forward and that way is with his person.
Even if he understands that distinction in an abstract way, he may not be able to imagine letting himself feel that kind of commitment; he may not know what that feels like, may not know what feelings or mental gestalt switch matches those words; or he may feel safe enough in the world to let himself feel that way.
The semantics -- the words -- are all we have to try to represent what's really going on in our minds, so they do matter.
For this reason, it might be good to get the most emotionally expert person available -- probably a therapist -- to try to help match the words to what's actually going on in your minds and limbic systems.
posted by amtho at 1:11 PM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
the wonderful thing about dating someone as old as 55 or even - frankly - as old as 33, in typical cases, is that you don't have to judge them by their ideals and principles alone, because they have had relationships before so you can judge them on their past instead. You don't have to go by philosophical discussions of what they might, could, or would do. you can simply ask them what they have done.
of course, they might lie
but you might also be able to tell.
there is no reason to be stewing about why a 50-+ year old man is talking about 99.9 percent instead of 100 percent probabilities! if you are worried about cheating, don't ask him the probability of him cheating, ask him if he EVER HAS. if he says Yes, find out how he justifies it or how convincingly he explains that he is different now. if he says no, and he never intends to, because [good reasons], you're fine. if he says no, and explodes in anger that you would dare to ask, you leave. if he says No and he never intends to but he still won't make any promises because hey you never really know for sure, do you, you should leave, but I am not sure you will.
in any case, leave the what-are-the-chances junk behind, that is for people who are both in their first relationship ever and to whom love is still mostly theoretical. unless that does apply to you both.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:23 PM on December 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
of course, they might lie
but you might also be able to tell.
there is no reason to be stewing about why a 50-+ year old man is talking about 99.9 percent instead of 100 percent probabilities! if you are worried about cheating, don't ask him the probability of him cheating, ask him if he EVER HAS. if he says Yes, find out how he justifies it or how convincingly he explains that he is different now. if he says no, and he never intends to, because [good reasons], you're fine. if he says no, and explodes in anger that you would dare to ask, you leave. if he says No and he never intends to but he still won't make any promises because hey you never really know for sure, do you, you should leave, but I am not sure you will.
in any case, leave the what-are-the-chances junk behind, that is for people who are both in their first relationship ever and to whom love is still mostly theoretical. unless that does apply to you both.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:23 PM on December 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
Who on earth yells in someone's face like that? At that point the rest of the argument is immaterial.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:53 PM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 1:53 PM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Expecting someone to provide an iron-clad guarantee that your feelings for each other will never ever change after having known you for five months is not at all reasonable of you. Arguing about the difference between 100% and 99.999.% is immature of you both. I get the need to be sure, but I also get the need to acknowledge that nobody can predict the future with 100% certainty. Your partner sounds like something of a pedant (like me), which can be annoying for others, but this specific argument hardly seems worth perpetuating.
I think queenofbithynia has a point - ask him if he's ever cheated on someone and if he's been cheated on in the past. Talk to him about whether you've ever been cheated on or have cheated on someone. There is quite likely a lightbulb moment for one or both of you in that conversation.
His yelling at you is absolutely unacceptable, no ifs or buts. You were owed an immediate and unreserved apology. It seems like you both might have some history that makes this triggering, making it worse for both of you. If this is an isolated occurrence, I would make it very clear to him that you will not tolerate such behaviour and why. Whether this one occurrence is enough for you to bail is something only you can decide, because only you know how it makes you feel now, after things have cooled off. I tend to take the calm approach in arguments, because that's how I avoid saying things I don't mean and I shy away from conflict so try to calm the waters. But it means I sometimes don't get to express how angry I am about something. I can see your partner reaching a point of frustration that resulted in the yelling when they are always trying to maintain control even during an argument because that's happened to me, but that doesn't make it OK. Contrary to what many claim, a person yelling at someone once is absolutely no guarantee that things will escalate.
posted by dg at 2:06 PM on December 12, 2022
I think queenofbithynia has a point - ask him if he's ever cheated on someone and if he's been cheated on in the past. Talk to him about whether you've ever been cheated on or have cheated on someone. There is quite likely a lightbulb moment for one or both of you in that conversation.
His yelling at you is absolutely unacceptable, no ifs or buts. You were owed an immediate and unreserved apology. It seems like you both might have some history that makes this triggering, making it worse for both of you. If this is an isolated occurrence, I would make it very clear to him that you will not tolerate such behaviour and why. Whether this one occurrence is enough for you to bail is something only you can decide, because only you know how it makes you feel now, after things have cooled off. I tend to take the calm approach in arguments, because that's how I avoid saying things I don't mean and I shy away from conflict so try to calm the waters. But it means I sometimes don't get to express how angry I am about something. I can see your partner reaching a point of frustration that resulted in the yelling when they are always trying to maintain control even during an argument because that's happened to me, but that doesn't make it OK. Contrary to what many claim, a person yelling at someone once is absolutely no guarantee that things will escalate.
posted by dg at 2:06 PM on December 12, 2022
Sounds like a bad fit--not because either of you necessarily have the one correct idea about relationships and true love but because you need someone who's more emotionally reassuring then this man. Someone who would say "yes, I won't betray you" without blinking an eyelash. (Doesn't necessarily mean that that man won't cheat, because the future is still unwritten and you can't guarantee he's not a liar, but...)
posted by kingdead at 2:13 PM on December 12, 2022
posted by kingdead at 2:13 PM on December 12, 2022
IMO, you're coming at it from the "feelings" point of view, while he's at "logic". And on top of it, you've got some rather black-and-white thinking going on.
I believe the idea of perfect soulmates - which you seem to be clinging to - is incredibly unrealistic. And I'm not convinced the sort of all-consuming, soulmate nonsense is the best sort of love, either. (My parents are like that... and at the same time, they're toxic as hell.) And yet, my relationship with my ex-husband - we HAVE been through hell and back with each other... and yet, somehow, we're still here. And love and respect each other far more than we ever have. Love is both a solid, concrete NOUN... and an ever-acting, moving VERB.
I used to believe that there were absolutely zero circumstances in which I would cheat. Believed that til I was a couple years older than you, in fact.
Learned I was wrong. So, so, incredibly wrong.
My certainty was for primarily ethical reasons - not "love"... I held myself - and everyone else - to a pretty high standard, prior to that.
Took me some time to figure out why I *did* end up cheating. I mean, I knew WHY at the time... but sorting out how I felt about it in my head took a lot longer. A couple of books helped, and they might give you some insight.
When Good People Have Affairs by Mira Kirshenbaum
Too Good To Leave, Too Bad To Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum
Should I Stay Or Should I Go? by Lundy Bancroft
In my opinion - four months is way too soon to know if you'll have a forever commitment. Hell, it's too soon to just move in together, like I told my 24yo son last month... and even he feels it's really sooner than he wants the gf introduced to his daughter.
I'm a little worried, too, about your mention of abusive partners in your past. Multiple. I'm not so worried about the yelling... in the right circumstances, a conversation like that might've frustrated the crap out of me and I'd have yelled, too. I'm almost always quiet and calm... so if I hit the point where someone is being so utterly obtuse (in my opinion) that I feel like I have to yell to get them to actual notice what I'm saying, it generally gets listened to. So not knowing more - or either of you in particular - I'm not going to speculate on where on the spectrum that moment lands.
But that "abusive partners" doesn't track well for me with the way you describe your parents and presumably then, home life. It's possible, of course, like anything else. But... not being mean here, but if the home life was really that ideal, a person tends to nope of of relationships before they go from iffy or uncomfortable to abusive.
Like I said. I could be wrong. In fact, I hope I am. But remember, back there, when I mentioned my parents? I always wanted a relationship like theirs, too. They've been married 50 years. But when you peek under that perfect surface, there's an awful lot of toxic stuff underneath.
Maybe, if this keeps bothering you, and you continue in the relationship, at some point, consider some sort of therapy. You alone, or couples, either might be the place to start. Just in case it isn't quite as simple as it seems, y'know?
And good luck to you.
posted by stormyteal at 2:32 PM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I believe the idea of perfect soulmates - which you seem to be clinging to - is incredibly unrealistic. And I'm not convinced the sort of all-consuming, soulmate nonsense is the best sort of love, either. (My parents are like that... and at the same time, they're toxic as hell.) And yet, my relationship with my ex-husband - we HAVE been through hell and back with each other... and yet, somehow, we're still here. And love and respect each other far more than we ever have. Love is both a solid, concrete NOUN... and an ever-acting, moving VERB.
I used to believe that there were absolutely zero circumstances in which I would cheat. Believed that til I was a couple years older than you, in fact.
Learned I was wrong. So, so, incredibly wrong.
My certainty was for primarily ethical reasons - not "love"... I held myself - and everyone else - to a pretty high standard, prior to that.
Took me some time to figure out why I *did* end up cheating. I mean, I knew WHY at the time... but sorting out how I felt about it in my head took a lot longer. A couple of books helped, and they might give you some insight.
When Good People Have Affairs by Mira Kirshenbaum
Too Good To Leave, Too Bad To Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum
Should I Stay Or Should I Go? by Lundy Bancroft
In my opinion - four months is way too soon to know if you'll have a forever commitment. Hell, it's too soon to just move in together, like I told my 24yo son last month... and even he feels it's really sooner than he wants the gf introduced to his daughter.
I'm a little worried, too, about your mention of abusive partners in your past. Multiple. I'm not so worried about the yelling... in the right circumstances, a conversation like that might've frustrated the crap out of me and I'd have yelled, too. I'm almost always quiet and calm... so if I hit the point where someone is being so utterly obtuse (in my opinion) that I feel like I have to yell to get them to actual notice what I'm saying, it generally gets listened to. So not knowing more - or either of you in particular - I'm not going to speculate on where on the spectrum that moment lands.
But that "abusive partners" doesn't track well for me with the way you describe your parents and presumably then, home life. It's possible, of course, like anything else. But... not being mean here, but if the home life was really that ideal, a person tends to nope of of relationships before they go from iffy or uncomfortable to abusive.
Like I said. I could be wrong. In fact, I hope I am. But remember, back there, when I mentioned my parents? I always wanted a relationship like theirs, too. They've been married 50 years. But when you peek under that perfect surface, there's an awful lot of toxic stuff underneath.
Maybe, if this keeps bothering you, and you continue in the relationship, at some point, consider some sort of therapy. You alone, or couples, either might be the place to start. Just in case it isn't quite as simple as it seems, y'know?
And good luck to you.
posted by stormyteal at 2:32 PM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
In 1997 I made a vow in front of God and all those in attendance that I would love my partner 100% now and forever, etc etc and we both believed those words. I was in my early 20s and he was my first serious relationship. Nine years later we divorced. The feelings fizzled and we grew apart. And I while I did not, I could have definitely cheated by then, because I was lonely and while that's not an excuse, it's hard to be lonely when the ring and the legal document say you shouldn't be lonely.
When my current husband (also once-divorced) and I married, we came into it knowing that the percentages were definitely far less than 100% but here we are ten years later, still making a go of it. I would rather go into a relationship knowing about percentages rather than assuming that a spoken promise of 100% was enough to carry us through.
Because the only thing that is 100% guaranteed as far as humans go is that we are going to die. By 55 you are painfully aware of that and by 33 you should be pretty aware of that. He is painfully aware, but you want him to fib and say he's 100% and ... you're not a good match just on that principle alone.
I'm of the opinion that an occasional outburst is human and while not fantastic, is not a guaranteed signpost of future abuse. I yell when I feel that my perfectly logical and calmly-expressed points are being ignored. But if that upsets you to the point of trembling, you need to bounce.
posted by kimberussell at 2:46 PM on December 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
When my current husband (also once-divorced) and I married, we came into it knowing that the percentages were definitely far less than 100% but here we are ten years later, still making a go of it. I would rather go into a relationship knowing about percentages rather than assuming that a spoken promise of 100% was enough to carry us through.
Because the only thing that is 100% guaranteed as far as humans go is that we are going to die. By 55 you are painfully aware of that and by 33 you should be pretty aware of that. He is painfully aware, but you want him to fib and say he's 100% and ... you're not a good match just on that principle alone.
I'm of the opinion that an occasional outburst is human and while not fantastic, is not a guaranteed signpost of future abuse. I yell when I feel that my perfectly logical and calmly-expressed points are being ignored. But if that upsets you to the point of trembling, you need to bounce.
posted by kimberussell at 2:46 PM on December 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
To me, the 0.000000001% is just a technicality.
But yelling IN YOUR FACE is a huge problem. Yelling in general isn't good, but mutual yelling can be ok - voices can get louder in a disagreement, and to me, yelling at each other once in a while isn't the end of the world, it can be just a sign of trying to be heard.
But he loomed down at you and yelled in your face. His goal with that action isn't "be heard", his goal is to intimidate you. That is not ok.
For context in my two most serious relationships with men, totalling over 12 years, and lots of disagreements, I've NEVER been yelled at with any kind of physical approach tacked on. Entering your personal space in anger is a threat, and it is NOT OK.
A friend told me her abusive partner only hit her three times, but after the first time, her behaviour was forever changed and so many of his minor actions in conflict situations became much more scary and threatening to her. I saw them argue once before I knew he was abusive and I was very alarmed at how appeasing and submissive she became. He submitted her permanently with just that first hit. It took a few years before the second hit. Only a few weeks before the third hit. These things escalate.
But it only takes that one first time to change your feeling of safety - you felt it, you were trembling - and he did it at only month 4! Now all he has to do is get close to you, walk towards you, turn suddenly towards you, raise his voice a little, and you'll enter a flight response and be shaky and scared.
After only 4 months? I would end a relationship. What the heck would he be doing by Year 5?
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:48 PM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
But yelling IN YOUR FACE is a huge problem. Yelling in general isn't good, but mutual yelling can be ok - voices can get louder in a disagreement, and to me, yelling at each other once in a while isn't the end of the world, it can be just a sign of trying to be heard.
But he loomed down at you and yelled in your face. His goal with that action isn't "be heard", his goal is to intimidate you. That is not ok.
For context in my two most serious relationships with men, totalling over 12 years, and lots of disagreements, I've NEVER been yelled at with any kind of physical approach tacked on. Entering your personal space in anger is a threat, and it is NOT OK.
A friend told me her abusive partner only hit her three times, but after the first time, her behaviour was forever changed and so many of his minor actions in conflict situations became much more scary and threatening to her. I saw them argue once before I knew he was abusive and I was very alarmed at how appeasing and submissive she became. He submitted her permanently with just that first hit. It took a few years before the second hit. Only a few weeks before the third hit. These things escalate.
But it only takes that one first time to change your feeling of safety - you felt it, you were trembling - and he did it at only month 4! Now all he has to do is get close to you, walk towards you, turn suddenly towards you, raise his voice a little, and you'll enter a flight response and be shaky and scared.
After only 4 months? I would end a relationship. What the heck would he be doing by Year 5?
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:48 PM on December 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
(Fun fact about math that you might hear from the world's worst couples therapist: 99.999 (non-terminating) equals 100.)
You and your partner are not very good at communicating with each other. If he wants to be the kind of person that maintains a calm demeanor, and he is a)well into his fifth decade of life and b)incapable of maintaining that demeanor, in this conversation, that's a problem.
Not everyone has moments of fear and trembling, like the ones you felt when he yelled at you, in their relationships. Lots of people don't. It's not the yelling as much as it is your response that makes me feel you might be better off without him.
posted by box at 3:12 PM on December 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
You and your partner are not very good at communicating with each other. If he wants to be the kind of person that maintains a calm demeanor, and he is a)well into his fifth decade of life and b)incapable of maintaining that demeanor, in this conversation, that's a problem.
Not everyone has moments of fear and trembling, like the ones you felt when he yelled at you, in their relationships. Lots of people don't. It's not the yelling as much as it is your response that makes me feel you might be better off without him.
posted by box at 3:12 PM on December 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
There's a thing that poorly matched and immature couples often do called Ghastly Emotional Scene. It doesn't even matter who starts it. One member of the couple starts digging in and then the other digs in and before long both are displaying their very worst tendencies at a high fever pitch until something goes really wrong and they stop. Here what went really wrong is your partner got down to your level and yelled a word in your face. That was wrong. He should have walked away from your absurd demands way before that moment. Like I stated above, it didn't come out of the blue: your standards and demands for complete, 100% everlasting devotion in word, thought, action and conceptual framework in a relationship that is not even six months old with a man who you already know has difficulties with expressions of intimacy is also wrong, and as emotionally immature-verging-on-mean-and-manipulative as yelling to make it stop is. (That you then both then discussed the also absolutely hypothetical possibility of him ever someday hitting you, based on him yelling one word one time, while you discussed your impossible demands for ongoing perfection, is also ratcheting things up not down, btw.) This is not how well-matched, adult couples behave. This is classic Ghastly Emotional Scene.
posted by desert exile at 3:19 PM on December 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by desert exile at 3:19 PM on December 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all so incredibly much. I asked this question because I knew I needed to do some digging, but did not realize just how much still needs to be done. Thank you for providing answers that relay what someone *needs* to hear, rather than what they *want* to hear.
Cakelife, your post resonated with me most with this question: "Are you always this worried that a partner will eventually cheat on you, or is something about this guy?" I have always been afraid to be vulnerable and give my all to someone, because it simply hurts too much to be hurt. There is nothing about this person that gives any indication that he will eventually cheat on me. In fact, he's been one of two people I've been with now, where I've actually felt reassured based on their behaviors.
There are a few points that are necessary to make, just to provide clarity and context that weren't present in my original post:
(1) I have been engaged twice; the first partner I was with for almost 6 years, and the second I was with for over 5. I had relationships prior to those, but things never became that serious. With both of these relationships, I was the one who ended them. I ended the first because my partner was abusive in every way, cheated on me, and went behind my back constantly. He enjoyed having a secret life. The other one stopped expressing a sexual desire for me, and for me that is something vital in a relationship. I wondered if I was meant to be in an open relationship instead, because I never seemed to feel that someone ever loved me and *only* me (or that I didn't become boring because I was familiar). He was one of the kindest souls I've ever met, but it turned out we had different core values that he didn't disclose to me until after we had broken up. Having had these serious, long-term relationships (lived together with both people) should have made me less naive. Why hasn't that been the case? Several people have mentioned naivete, or me viewing relationships as a fairy tale. I'm very glad those people said that, and I also find it concerning that my behavior seems so juvenile/inexperienced despite actually having the experience.
(2) My boyfriend has expressed many times that he is absolutely committed to me. There is no question or doubt on my part regarding his commitment (and he feels the same about me). He has never cheated on a partner, but has been cheated on. He even said during the dispute last night that there's a reason he's 55 and has never been married: it's because he hadn't yet found someone with whom he felt compatible enough or trusted enough. We both have trust issues regarding humans in general. However, we both trust each other as much as it's possible to trust another person. We feel this way because we've already had difficult conversations and practiced healthy communications during those struggles. We've shown one another that we are trustworthy as individuals. There is no lack of- or hesitance towards- commitment from either of us.
(3) My parents don't really have friends. My dad has 1 or 2 that he still speaks with from childhood, but my mother doesn't so much, and she doesn't leave the house unless absolutely necessary. She loves her grandchildren (my nieces), and has basically raised my sister's children for her. My mother once said to me that she "couldn't leave [sister's name] and I alone in the house, because she couldn't bear to ever be away from us." This screams "codependence", and I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason my parents are still so in love is because of this. I'm very adamant about not continuing negative family cycles, and if my post has been an indicator of codependence, I need to know that.
(4) I will be starting therapy next week. It's been long-awaited for months now, because all previous appointments were cancelled (by the therapists) last-minute without any notice, 4 consecutive times. It only exacerbated my feelings of not being important or "enough" for anyone, and left me feeling as if I'm simply not important enough to be loved; not even enough to be seen for therapy. I felt abandoned, and don't want to feel that way anymore.
(5) Regarding my boyfriend yelling the word in my face, I think it was him reaching the point of utter frustration. He told me he felt I wasn't understanding a single word he was saying. I told him I felt the same in that moment. We realized we actually *were* saying the exact same things, just in different ways. For me it was the lack of 100% certainty, which I now realize is unrealistic. He apologized immediately, and I looked him in the eye and told him that I will never be spoken to that way again. I deserve better, and I simply won't tolerate that from anyone. He hugged me, and was completely shattered and filled with remorse in feeling my uncontrollable trembling. He felt absolutely awful about having made me feel that way. I will address this further with him in the future, but for me, at least consciously, I don't feel that that was my main concern from yesterday. My only concern about that is that if we had children, that he would yell at them that way. But again, we will address that at another time with each other.
posted by Jangatroo at 3:21 PM on December 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Cakelife, your post resonated with me most with this question: "Are you always this worried that a partner will eventually cheat on you, or is something about this guy?" I have always been afraid to be vulnerable and give my all to someone, because it simply hurts too much to be hurt. There is nothing about this person that gives any indication that he will eventually cheat on me. In fact, he's been one of two people I've been with now, where I've actually felt reassured based on their behaviors.
There are a few points that are necessary to make, just to provide clarity and context that weren't present in my original post:
(1) I have been engaged twice; the first partner I was with for almost 6 years, and the second I was with for over 5. I had relationships prior to those, but things never became that serious. With both of these relationships, I was the one who ended them. I ended the first because my partner was abusive in every way, cheated on me, and went behind my back constantly. He enjoyed having a secret life. The other one stopped expressing a sexual desire for me, and for me that is something vital in a relationship. I wondered if I was meant to be in an open relationship instead, because I never seemed to feel that someone ever loved me and *only* me (or that I didn't become boring because I was familiar). He was one of the kindest souls I've ever met, but it turned out we had different core values that he didn't disclose to me until after we had broken up. Having had these serious, long-term relationships (lived together with both people) should have made me less naive. Why hasn't that been the case? Several people have mentioned naivete, or me viewing relationships as a fairy tale. I'm very glad those people said that, and I also find it concerning that my behavior seems so juvenile/inexperienced despite actually having the experience.
(2) My boyfriend has expressed many times that he is absolutely committed to me. There is no question or doubt on my part regarding his commitment (and he feels the same about me). He has never cheated on a partner, but has been cheated on. He even said during the dispute last night that there's a reason he's 55 and has never been married: it's because he hadn't yet found someone with whom he felt compatible enough or trusted enough. We both have trust issues regarding humans in general. However, we both trust each other as much as it's possible to trust another person. We feel this way because we've already had difficult conversations and practiced healthy communications during those struggles. We've shown one another that we are trustworthy as individuals. There is no lack of- or hesitance towards- commitment from either of us.
(3) My parents don't really have friends. My dad has 1 or 2 that he still speaks with from childhood, but my mother doesn't so much, and she doesn't leave the house unless absolutely necessary. She loves her grandchildren (my nieces), and has basically raised my sister's children for her. My mother once said to me that she "couldn't leave [sister's name] and I alone in the house, because she couldn't bear to ever be away from us." This screams "codependence", and I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason my parents are still so in love is because of this. I'm very adamant about not continuing negative family cycles, and if my post has been an indicator of codependence, I need to know that.
(4) I will be starting therapy next week. It's been long-awaited for months now, because all previous appointments were cancelled (by the therapists) last-minute without any notice, 4 consecutive times. It only exacerbated my feelings of not being important or "enough" for anyone, and left me feeling as if I'm simply not important enough to be loved; not even enough to be seen for therapy. I felt abandoned, and don't want to feel that way anymore.
(5) Regarding my boyfriend yelling the word in my face, I think it was him reaching the point of utter frustration. He told me he felt I wasn't understanding a single word he was saying. I told him I felt the same in that moment. We realized we actually *were* saying the exact same things, just in different ways. For me it was the lack of 100% certainty, which I now realize is unrealistic. He apologized immediately, and I looked him in the eye and told him that I will never be spoken to that way again. I deserve better, and I simply won't tolerate that from anyone. He hugged me, and was completely shattered and filled with remorse in feeling my uncontrollable trembling. He felt absolutely awful about having made me feel that way. I will address this further with him in the future, but for me, at least consciously, I don't feel that that was my main concern from yesterday. My only concern about that is that if we had children, that he would yell at them that way. But again, we will address that at another time with each other.
posted by Jangatroo at 3:21 PM on December 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
It sounds to me like you have a pretty unrealistic expectation of what relationships look like, but also like you haven't done much introspection on what the things you expect out of a relationship really mean to you. A lot of other people have touched on this, but I think trusting any person 100% is (at best) more of a statement of intent than something that can actually realistically be achieved. Nobody can be their best self all the time. There will be times that they intend to do something but forget, or times that they're tired and do something thoughtless, or any of a million other things that are absolutely inevitable that cause harm or upset to someone without intending to do so. No one can promise they won't hurt you. The best that you can get is that they will never hurt you intentionally, and even that is a pretty unrealistic goal. In any long-term relationship, there will be a day that someone is frustrated and angry enough to say something hurtful. In a good relationship, those times will be few and far between, and will be followed by sincere apologies, but no one can be perfect all the time.
I want to leave you with a couple questions to reflect on about what your hopes for a relationship mean to you.
If you trust him 100% as you say you do, why does it frighten you when he yells? That fear points at something you don't trust. What is it?
Another thing you say you want from your relationship is to know with absolute certainty that the other person will never hurt you. His yelling and his unwillingness to commit to a "100%" number have already hurt you. How do you square that with trusting him 100%?
posted by duien at 3:34 PM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
I want to leave you with a couple questions to reflect on about what your hopes for a relationship mean to you.
If you trust him 100% as you say you do, why does it frighten you when he yells? That fear points at something you don't trust. What is it?
Another thing you say you want from your relationship is to know with absolute certainty that the other person will never hurt you. His yelling and his unwillingness to commit to a "100%" number have already hurt you. How do you square that with trusting him 100%?
posted by duien at 3:34 PM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
I posted before reading your follow-up, so I apologize if it feels like harping on things you've addressed.
Based on that comment, I think another thing to think about would be what it would mean to have that 100% trust in yourself. Your fear of not being "enough" is a kind of lack of trust -- what would it feel like to know with certainty that you're enough, because you're already enough for yourself?
posted by duien at 3:43 PM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Based on that comment, I think another thing to think about would be what it would mean to have that 100% trust in yourself. Your fear of not being "enough" is a kind of lack of trust -- what would it feel like to know with certainty that you're enough, because you're already enough for yourself?
posted by duien at 3:43 PM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
I have always been afraid to be vulnerable and give my all to someone, because it simply hurts too much to be hurt.
Then you can't be in a relationship. You don't get a hurt-free relationship. Nobody does. Nor do you get hurt-free parenthood.
I have a lot of side-eye for people who want to talk about their trust issues as an excuse for being in a crappy relationship and for being crappy in a relationship and taking crap in a relationship. It really feels like in your case you want to skip to the ending. You seem to not want to navigate the now, you want all these promises about 20 years from now rather than putting in the work up front. And that work? Is largely about vetting people and then breaking up with them as soon as you recognize they're not a really really really good match. You want "happily ever after" at four months with someone who still hasn't resolved his Family of Origin issues at 55, with only an okay chance of living until your kids are out of school, who yells in your face like a baby when he's frustrated, but tells you you're more special than all the other women (his age, likely) who couldn't make it work.
Be single and go to therapy. Be brave enough to be single and go to therapy and learn to be enough for yourself so you can actually be picky about who is good enough for you. Be rational enough to stay out of relationships until you have gained the skills of being appropriately vulnerable and being able to manage the normal discomfort of sharing yourself and develop discretion and discernment rather than "trust issues". Be forward-thinking enough to delay parenthood until you've had enough time in therapy to not emotionally scramble your kids (and make them incredibly vulnerable to predation) with your need to be filled up by someone else.
Take two years to rebuild yourself stronger and smarter, without a partner, so that you know your worth first instead of wanting to be loaned worth by people who know how to take advantage of the needy.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:54 PM on December 12, 2022 [32 favorites]
Then you can't be in a relationship. You don't get a hurt-free relationship. Nobody does. Nor do you get hurt-free parenthood.
I have a lot of side-eye for people who want to talk about their trust issues as an excuse for being in a crappy relationship and for being crappy in a relationship and taking crap in a relationship. It really feels like in your case you want to skip to the ending. You seem to not want to navigate the now, you want all these promises about 20 years from now rather than putting in the work up front. And that work? Is largely about vetting people and then breaking up with them as soon as you recognize they're not a really really really good match. You want "happily ever after" at four months with someone who still hasn't resolved his Family of Origin issues at 55, with only an okay chance of living until your kids are out of school, who yells in your face like a baby when he's frustrated, but tells you you're more special than all the other women (his age, likely) who couldn't make it work.
Be single and go to therapy. Be brave enough to be single and go to therapy and learn to be enough for yourself so you can actually be picky about who is good enough for you. Be rational enough to stay out of relationships until you have gained the skills of being appropriately vulnerable and being able to manage the normal discomfort of sharing yourself and develop discretion and discernment rather than "trust issues". Be forward-thinking enough to delay parenthood until you've had enough time in therapy to not emotionally scramble your kids (and make them incredibly vulnerable to predation) with your need to be filled up by someone else.
Take two years to rebuild yourself stronger and smarter, without a partner, so that you know your worth first instead of wanting to be loaned worth by people who know how to take advantage of the needy.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:54 PM on December 12, 2022 [32 favorites]
If you trust him 100% as you say you do, why does it frighten you when he yells? That fear points at something you don't trust. What is it?
I don't think this is a fair question to ask or a fair inference to draw. being yelled at in real anger by an adult you love is scary. to anyone, to everyone who is emotionally functional and responsive. not scary because they might hit you, not scary because they might leave, scary because they are so angry at you they are yelling. that is the thing! the thing pointed at, not the thing pointing.
the only two ways that thing is not scary are if a) you're equally angry at them and can't feel their anger because you're too busy feeling your own - which is more equal, but not good at all except for couples who love to yell - or b) you don't love them anymore, you despise them, and so it can't be scary that they're mad at you because it's funny, they are funny to you.
I don't think much of a 55 year old who can't control himself in an argument and I worry about a 33 year old who is unsure of herself in a relationship with an old blowhard. but fair is fair.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:11 PM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
everything Lyn Never said. Seriously. They have a crystal ball or something. The wisdom is invaluable.
If I had this advice 20 years ago, I would've been better off, truly. Please heed the advice in this thread.
posted by VyanSelei at 4:23 PM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
If I had this advice 20 years ago, I would've been better off, truly. Please heed the advice in this thread.
posted by VyanSelei at 4:23 PM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Reading your ask, i think that this issue of being 99% sure etc comes down to life experience. He has 20+ years more of experience, being mid-fifties.
I came to say this. Twenty years ago, my views were more like yours, but time humbles you and most people are a lot less certain of anything by their mid-fifties. It sounds like your boyfriend might have been a bit pedantic in clinging to his .0001 (or whatever) percent, but on the other hand, would you have preferred he lied or ignored his own feelings to reassure you? There's no wrong answer to that question, but if you differ on it, you might just not be compatible in that area.
Like others, I am more concerned about the yelling. Although I would not go so far as to say he is, or will become, abusive based on one moment of frustration, it's something to keep your eye on. Trust your gut as always, and if your instincts are telling you this is something you need to be afraid of, don't talk yourself out of it.
posted by rpfields at 4:47 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I came to say this. Twenty years ago, my views were more like yours, but time humbles you and most people are a lot less certain of anything by their mid-fifties. It sounds like your boyfriend might have been a bit pedantic in clinging to his .0001 (or whatever) percent, but on the other hand, would you have preferred he lied or ignored his own feelings to reassure you? There's no wrong answer to that question, but if you differ on it, you might just not be compatible in that area.
Like others, I am more concerned about the yelling. Although I would not go so far as to say he is, or will become, abusive based on one moment of frustration, it's something to keep your eye on. Trust your gut as always, and if your instincts are telling you this is something you need to be afraid of, don't talk yourself out of it.
posted by rpfields at 4:47 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Okay, so you shared some more here about your parents. You are idealizing your parents' marriage, but I'm also worried that you aren't quite seeing how emotionally unhealthy they are. Your mom sounds housebound by fear, and both of your parents don't have much community beyond their kids and grandchildren. That's not a good way to live. It's not just about being codependent. I think your mom has some pretty major emotional and mental health issues that you might have conflated with an indication of a good marriage and commitment to family.
Having a robust community that includes friends doesn't preclude or prevent being in a great relationship. Focusing your relationship intensity on one other person isn't healthy, either. Indeed, I'd say being part of a bigger community is really important regardless of relationship status.
Do you have a community of friends and do you put energy into those relationships?
posted by bluedaisy at 5:05 PM on December 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
Having a robust community that includes friends doesn't preclude or prevent being in a great relationship. Focusing your relationship intensity on one other person isn't healthy, either. Indeed, I'd say being part of a bigger community is really important regardless of relationship status.
Do you have a community of friends and do you put energy into those relationships?
posted by bluedaisy at 5:05 PM on December 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
When romantic partners or prospects have asked me to guarantee that I will love them and be 100% committed to them without any hesitations or doubts or backsies no matter what, I have learned the hard way that they were asking me to give them permission to take our relationship for granted, at best, or treat me like crap, at worst.
What you’re asking your partner to promise would be a huge red flag for me—a sign that you were either not ready or not interested in giving longterm relationships the kind of care and feeding they inevitably require.
posted by pinkacademic at 5:08 PM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
What you’re asking your partner to promise would be a huge red flag for me—a sign that you were either not ready or not interested in giving longterm relationships the kind of care and feeding they inevitably require.
posted by pinkacademic at 5:08 PM on December 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
It’s no matter what anyone else would be okay with, to each their own. People can disagree on a lot of things regarding relationship semantics and stay married, continuing to talk about your concerns is a good thing. Sounds like you need to spend more time together for you get a better idea of what he’s about. You deserve that for yourself.
posted by waving at 5:09 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by waving at 5:09 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
But he then claimed that two people can love one another and be more committed to each other than any two people in the history of humanity, but there is still a 0.000001% (with more zeroes, in fact) that something could happen, and those people could cheat on their partner, fall out of love with their partner, find that they no longer want to be committed to their partner, etc. This was absolutely devastating to me, and I'm wondering if I'm in denial about love.
Yep, you are in major denial. Stuff happens all the time. People change. Nobody is ever frozen in time unchanging, the same person as they were in the past feeling exactly as they did then. At this instant cheating is unthinkable. Two months from now? It doesn't take a major personality change to cause a relationship to fray a little. Sometimes all it takes is one drink, just enough to lower the inhibitions, but often it doesn't even take that.
There are a gazillion people out there who are absolutely certain they could never cheat, and then they do and they struggle with cognitive dissonance because they were sure they never would, never could. "I don't know why I did it, I still love him..." etc. It's such a typical, common, story it's a cliché.
The belief that your relationship is unique in the history of humankind and your bond is fate, or stronger than ordinary relationships, and all that kind of thing is one of the standard common as mud things that people feel when they fall in love. It's a classic symptom of having fallen in love, the feeling that this person is the one, the only one, the one that is forever. We tend to believe it absolutely, but statistically the one we are fooling is ourself. In fact there are a lot of people who have felt absolutely certain that there current partner is the ONE multiple times with multiple people.
When people fall in love they really, really mean it. Words like forever rise up unbidden. There is an urge to declare your love. There is the sense that you are willing to die for this new person, to throw away everything currently in your life for this other person. You are everything to me. And they are, and people do. They say Jove laughs at lover's perjuries. Lovers vow eternity all the time. In fact if bonding was permanent people wouldn't feel the urge to swear to it. It would never occur to them. They'd be too busy serving their partner the way worker bees serve the hive.
But if nothing dramatic happens that bonding peak usually wears off in a few weeks or a few years. The love high wears off. And couples often stay together afterwards because they have become good friends and partners and made commitments. That peak of absolute willingness to trust and commit wears off though. It wears off for the same reason it occurs. For one thing, it's not physiologically sustainable.
For another it happens so we will pair bond and have kids and protect and raise them. If you were capable of fully bonding with someone permanently it would be biologically counter productive. Everyone who lost a partner would be unable to transfer allegiance to another. Everyone whose partner turned out to be unsuitable would be unable to transfer allegiance to another. Everyone who couldn't survive or save their partner if they stay with them would die or be unable to transfer their allegiance to another. But as it happens the average length of time we are in love is roughly three years, the length of time it takes to get pregnant and raise a kid until it is weaned and no longer completely helpless.
You're not a magic spiritual being who is going to meet your soul mate in every future incarnation, nor will you have eternal life with them because your love can't die. But this is what the bonding instinct makes us feel. It feels real and it feels reciprocal.
As for your guy yelling at you... that sounds like you are starting to unbond with him already to me. Either he yelled at you in a threatening way and your self preservation instinct is starting to kick in and telling you to drop him, or your need to feel bonded is weaker than you want it to be, and you are starting to have doubts about him being The One and questioning his behaviour.
Unbonding with him is not a bad thing, but it is likely to feel really crappy. Falling out of love always sucks. Not having perfect security is scary. But you don't have perfect security and you never did. Your parents were not perfect and you are not perfect and he is not perfect. There is no way to have perfect security, no matter how much you want it.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:58 PM on December 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
Yep, you are in major denial. Stuff happens all the time. People change. Nobody is ever frozen in time unchanging, the same person as they were in the past feeling exactly as they did then. At this instant cheating is unthinkable. Two months from now? It doesn't take a major personality change to cause a relationship to fray a little. Sometimes all it takes is one drink, just enough to lower the inhibitions, but often it doesn't even take that.
There are a gazillion people out there who are absolutely certain they could never cheat, and then they do and they struggle with cognitive dissonance because they were sure they never would, never could. "I don't know why I did it, I still love him..." etc. It's such a typical, common, story it's a cliché.
The belief that your relationship is unique in the history of humankind and your bond is fate, or stronger than ordinary relationships, and all that kind of thing is one of the standard common as mud things that people feel when they fall in love. It's a classic symptom of having fallen in love, the feeling that this person is the one, the only one, the one that is forever. We tend to believe it absolutely, but statistically the one we are fooling is ourself. In fact there are a lot of people who have felt absolutely certain that there current partner is the ONE multiple times with multiple people.
When people fall in love they really, really mean it. Words like forever rise up unbidden. There is an urge to declare your love. There is the sense that you are willing to die for this new person, to throw away everything currently in your life for this other person. You are everything to me. And they are, and people do. They say Jove laughs at lover's perjuries. Lovers vow eternity all the time. In fact if bonding was permanent people wouldn't feel the urge to swear to it. It would never occur to them. They'd be too busy serving their partner the way worker bees serve the hive.
But if nothing dramatic happens that bonding peak usually wears off in a few weeks or a few years. The love high wears off. And couples often stay together afterwards because they have become good friends and partners and made commitments. That peak of absolute willingness to trust and commit wears off though. It wears off for the same reason it occurs. For one thing, it's not physiologically sustainable.
For another it happens so we will pair bond and have kids and protect and raise them. If you were capable of fully bonding with someone permanently it would be biologically counter productive. Everyone who lost a partner would be unable to transfer allegiance to another. Everyone whose partner turned out to be unsuitable would be unable to transfer allegiance to another. Everyone who couldn't survive or save their partner if they stay with them would die or be unable to transfer their allegiance to another. But as it happens the average length of time we are in love is roughly three years, the length of time it takes to get pregnant and raise a kid until it is weaned and no longer completely helpless.
You're not a magic spiritual being who is going to meet your soul mate in every future incarnation, nor will you have eternal life with them because your love can't die. But this is what the bonding instinct makes us feel. It feels real and it feels reciprocal.
As for your guy yelling at you... that sounds like you are starting to unbond with him already to me. Either he yelled at you in a threatening way and your self preservation instinct is starting to kick in and telling you to drop him, or your need to feel bonded is weaker than you want it to be, and you are starting to have doubts about him being The One and questioning his behaviour.
Unbonding with him is not a bad thing, but it is likely to feel really crappy. Falling out of love always sucks. Not having perfect security is scary. But you don't have perfect security and you never did. Your parents were not perfect and you are not perfect and he is not perfect. There is no way to have perfect security, no matter how much you want it.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:58 PM on December 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
Contrary to what many claim, a person yelling at someone once is absolutely no guarantee that things will escalate.
Sure, if it's an otherwise healthy relationship where both/all partners feel safe and comfortable. But in an abusive relationship, it absolutely is a sign that things will escalate.
I come from a family of yellers. I realized this was unhealthy and had to change so I did a few years ago in mid-thirties. Since then, I've ended relationships and walked away from dates; however, I've never had a screaming match with anyone I genuinely love and respect. I think there's something very off about this guy, and most of us feel it: at the very least, his style of in-your-face-yelling is a sign of emotional immaturity. I get shivers just imagining it.
OP, I do hope things work out for the best but, should they not and you need help to get out, now or week or months from now, we are here for you.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:22 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sure, if it's an otherwise healthy relationship where both/all partners feel safe and comfortable. But in an abusive relationship, it absolutely is a sign that things will escalate.
I come from a family of yellers. I realized this was unhealthy and had to change so I did a few years ago in mid-thirties. Since then, I've ended relationships and walked away from dates; however, I've never had a screaming match with anyone I genuinely love and respect. I think there's something very off about this guy, and most of us feel it: at the very least, his style of in-your-face-yelling is a sign of emotional immaturity. I get shivers just imagining it.
OP, I do hope things work out for the best but, should they not and you need help to get out, now or week or months from now, we are here for you.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:22 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Lots of good answers. I do think your desires are unrealistic. I think whether or not people think that will depend on whether they agree with you, or with your boyfriend. If what you need is to be with someone who espouses the same discourse, that is a totally valid -- and realistic -- desire.
posted by virve at 6:55 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by virve at 6:55 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is a long thread, and I haven't read it all. But what stood out to me was the need for 100% certainty. That doesn't exist in this world, and certainly not in a relationship. We as humans don't even have 100% certainty our own brains won't turn against us (due to any number of neurological conditions, mental health, etc). There's no certainty in life, period. Expecting it is setting yourself up for disappointment.
posted by cgg at 7:12 PM on December 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by cgg at 7:12 PM on December 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
Why are you desperate for unwavering commitment from a person you barely know? You shouldn’t be looking for it or offering it either, there are a lot of things you still don’t know about each other before you make promises like that. Point in case, this person you trust implicitly just yelled at you and scared the beejesus out of you.
You think he’s worth that kind of trust and commitment? You say you know your boyfriend would never put his hands on you, how could possibly know that, you can measure the time you’ve spent together in weeks.
I think you need to ask yourself why you’re so desperate to get these reassurances from him and what he’s saying or doing to you to trigger this. I think things are going to escalate and the last thing this guy deserves from you is promises of commitment.
posted by Jubey at 9:49 PM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
You think he’s worth that kind of trust and commitment? You say you know your boyfriend would never put his hands on you, how could possibly know that, you can measure the time you’ve spent together in weeks.
I think you need to ask yourself why you’re so desperate to get these reassurances from him and what he’s saying or doing to you to trigger this. I think things are going to escalate and the last thing this guy deserves from you is promises of commitment.
posted by Jubey at 9:49 PM on December 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
There are some people who think that pedantic honesty is a virtue. The people who might "correct" someone who says they're an atheist because "there's no way whether you could know for sure that there's no gods, so you can only be agnostic. In my experience, they tend to mostly be men. And I have some leanings towards that but learned at a relatively young age that it doesn't actually improve communication but hinders it.
As a parallel to your boyfriend's statement, I have never drunk a beer while driving and never intend to. Younger me (and it sounds like your boyfriend) might argue that I can't say that I would never drink while driving because some extreme edge case might provoke it, but current me knows to just say that.
P.S. The yelling thing isn't cool, as everyone else has said.
posted by Candleman at 10:30 PM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
As a parallel to your boyfriend's statement, I have never drunk a beer while driving and never intend to. Younger me (and it sounds like your boyfriend) might argue that I can't say that I would never drink while driving because some extreme edge case might provoke it, but current me knows to just say that.
P.S. The yelling thing isn't cool, as everyone else has said.
posted by Candleman at 10:30 PM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
I will be starting therapy next week. It's been long-awaited for months now, because all previous appointments were cancelled (by the therapists) last-minute without any notice, 4 consecutive times.
Is this because you are using one of those online portals like BetterHelp? I know some people have had them work, but this is a common experience people have - so not only is it absolutely not a reflection of you as a person, but also if you can find a brick-and-mortar therapist, do it (I realize these days that's easier said than done).
And yes, like others have pointed out, based on your update it sounds like your main focus right now should be working on yourself in therapy. Your mom's inability to leave the house for fear of being away from her children (you) seems really unhealthy. It also will likely be worth boiling down why it is you endured not just one, but two unhappy long term relationships. Good luck.
posted by coffeecat at 8:00 AM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Is this because you are using one of those online portals like BetterHelp? I know some people have had them work, but this is a common experience people have - so not only is it absolutely not a reflection of you as a person, but also if you can find a brick-and-mortar therapist, do it (I realize these days that's easier said than done).
And yes, like others have pointed out, based on your update it sounds like your main focus right now should be working on yourself in therapy. Your mom's inability to leave the house for fear of being away from her children (you) seems really unhealthy. It also will likely be worth boiling down why it is you endured not just one, but two unhappy long term relationships. Good luck.
posted by coffeecat at 8:00 AM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Something I read/heard/realized a long time ago is that women in particular are culturally trained that relationships start from 100% promising at the moment we meet someone, and we should only carefully downgrade that number upon serious consideration of flaws/mismatches/flags and whether we can "afford", by our own lack of value, to hold those things against them.
This framing tends to get bolstered by limerence, new relationship energy, being fuck-drunk, and people usually putting on their best behavior early in a relationship. Look at how wonderful this all is, with basically zero data! It will definitely always be this way! People tell you all the time that they met someone and they "just knew"* and I feel great right now so I clearly "just know" too!
I encourage you to start starting at somewhere around 50%, give or take, depending on circumstances. Not just potential boyfriends, but also friends, jobs, volunteer commitments, roommates, buyer-seller relationship, therapy, another type of service provider, whatever. 50% falls around the level of "reasonable faith in humanity but time will tell". If you walk into a situation that immediately feels like less than 50%, get out ASAP. If your 50% starts dropping even in early days, start looking for the exits.
Be as conservative about adding points as you previously were about removing them. Let it take time. Seeing him be nice to one serviceperson is not the same as experiencing him repeatedly showing respect to people over whom he has some kind of power. Seeing him get in one argument with a relative is not the same as seeing an overall warm loving relationship that occasionally experiences conflict that is fairly well-handled. Seeing his clean house on the first date is not the same as watching it slide into squalor over the next six months, and even that is very different than watching it slide into squalor specifically because he expects you to clean it for him. Yelling in your face once, if that alone isn't a dealbreaker, is a flag that you need to watch and wait to see if it happens again and not just blow off because the make-up sex was good or he told you a sob story about not wanting to be like his dad.
You can enjoy the early stages of a relationship without jumping immediately to "forever", you know. Yes, of course, you can and should talk about monogamy and exclusivity and the other high-value requirements you have in a relationship, but keep in mind you're discussing the short-term future because that's all there is yet.
*It's easy to not remember you "just knew" about basically everyone, if that's how you generally perceive things. I am one of those people who "just knew" in my case, but what I "knew" was that I was going to take this one seriously, because I felt I was really ready for my next long-term relationship to come along AND I felt we had shared values and well-matched personalities that I think is the bare minimum requirement for a good relationship. The "knowing" didn't mean we didn't have to put in the work, if anything it meant being extra careful about the groundwork we were laying because it would be a pity to screw it all up by not trying our best.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:30 AM on December 13, 2022 [28 favorites]
This framing tends to get bolstered by limerence, new relationship energy, being fuck-drunk, and people usually putting on their best behavior early in a relationship. Look at how wonderful this all is, with basically zero data! It will definitely always be this way! People tell you all the time that they met someone and they "just knew"* and I feel great right now so I clearly "just know" too!
I encourage you to start starting at somewhere around 50%, give or take, depending on circumstances. Not just potential boyfriends, but also friends, jobs, volunteer commitments, roommates, buyer-seller relationship, therapy, another type of service provider, whatever. 50% falls around the level of "reasonable faith in humanity but time will tell". If you walk into a situation that immediately feels like less than 50%, get out ASAP. If your 50% starts dropping even in early days, start looking for the exits.
Be as conservative about adding points as you previously were about removing them. Let it take time. Seeing him be nice to one serviceperson is not the same as experiencing him repeatedly showing respect to people over whom he has some kind of power. Seeing him get in one argument with a relative is not the same as seeing an overall warm loving relationship that occasionally experiences conflict that is fairly well-handled. Seeing his clean house on the first date is not the same as watching it slide into squalor over the next six months, and even that is very different than watching it slide into squalor specifically because he expects you to clean it for him. Yelling in your face once, if that alone isn't a dealbreaker, is a flag that you need to watch and wait to see if it happens again and not just blow off because the make-up sex was good or he told you a sob story about not wanting to be like his dad.
You can enjoy the early stages of a relationship without jumping immediately to "forever", you know. Yes, of course, you can and should talk about monogamy and exclusivity and the other high-value requirements you have in a relationship, but keep in mind you're discussing the short-term future because that's all there is yet.
*It's easy to not remember you "just knew" about basically everyone, if that's how you generally perceive things. I am one of those people who "just knew" in my case, but what I "knew" was that I was going to take this one seriously, because I felt I was really ready for my next long-term relationship to come along AND I felt we had shared values and well-matched personalities that I think is the bare minimum requirement for a good relationship. The "knowing" didn't mean we didn't have to put in the work, if anything it meant being extra careful about the groundwork we were laying because it would be a pity to screw it all up by not trying our best.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:30 AM on December 13, 2022 [28 favorites]
Regarding my boyfriend yelling the word in my face, I think it was him reaching the point of utter frustration. He told me he felt I wasn't understanding a single word he was saying.
The way to express this feeling would be to say "I feel like you are not understanding a single word I am saying." Getting into position to scream one particular word into someone's face is not a reasonable way to make your point more understandable. It is a useful way to shut people down.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:08 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
The way to express this feeling would be to say "I feel like you are not understanding a single word I am saying." Getting into position to scream one particular word into someone's face is not a reasonable way to make your point more understandable. It is a useful way to shut people down.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:08 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
One thing that jumped out at me here, in connection with the yelling and aggression and weird argument about a theoretical difference between 99.999999 and 100 percent on a total hypothetical issue.
The high level of trust and love etc. you're both saying you have in each other is a lot for a four month relationship. Maybe too much.
Love bombing and earlier than normal levels of too much attachment are common in relationships that eventually bece abusive. I actually think that alone is a red flag that you're not really considering.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:24 PM on December 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
The high level of trust and love etc. you're both saying you have in each other is a lot for a four month relationship. Maybe too much.
Love bombing and earlier than normal levels of too much attachment are common in relationships that eventually bece abusive. I actually think that alone is a red flag that you're not really considering.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:24 PM on December 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
You've already gotten a lot of advice, including most of what I would say, so I'll just leave a couple comments for consideration:
1) At 4 months into a relationship, and 5 months of knowing someone, you're still in the state of limerence (surprised that Lyn Never's comment was the first to use that word). Any predictions now about how you will feel in 2-3 years are highly untrustworthy. My now-wife and I decided to move in together after knowing one another for only 8 months or so. Most of our friends and family thought it was a terrible idea. In most cases they would have been right, even though we've been together for 31 years after signing that first lease and have had a remarkably serene and joyful life together. We were lucky in that once we got past that first period of intense infatuation, we turned out to have compatible values, hobbies, preferences, and senses of humor.
2) People in a committed relationship will feel attraction to others from time to time. Being aware of that possibility, and being willing to address it, is important. Johnny Cash's song "I Walk the Line" offers good advice. Sometimes a relationship is on the rocks when it ends, and the other person is just the catalyst, but sometimes poor impulse control is responsible. One can be happy in a relationship and still destroy it.
posted by brianogilvie at 4:24 PM on December 13, 2022
1) At 4 months into a relationship, and 5 months of knowing someone, you're still in the state of limerence (surprised that Lyn Never's comment was the first to use that word). Any predictions now about how you will feel in 2-3 years are highly untrustworthy. My now-wife and I decided to move in together after knowing one another for only 8 months or so. Most of our friends and family thought it was a terrible idea. In most cases they would have been right, even though we've been together for 31 years after signing that first lease and have had a remarkably serene and joyful life together. We were lucky in that once we got past that first period of intense infatuation, we turned out to have compatible values, hobbies, preferences, and senses of humor.
2) People in a committed relationship will feel attraction to others from time to time. Being aware of that possibility, and being willing to address it, is important. Johnny Cash's song "I Walk the Line" offers good advice. Sometimes a relationship is on the rocks when it ends, and the other person is just the catalyst, but sometimes poor impulse control is responsible. One can be happy in a relationship and still destroy it.
posted by brianogilvie at 4:24 PM on December 13, 2022
OP, you sound like an incredibly thoughtful and conscientious person to be able to incorporate all this feedback in such an analytical way. Just know that I am rooting for you and your relationship
posted by winterportage at 11:28 AM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by winterportage at 11:28 AM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
The point is not the correct analysis of the odds. I’ve been married for 22 years and I’m 100% for my marriage and my wife. Like, zero doubt about her and us, and I can’t imagine that changing. I’m sticking with her forever, as long as she’ll have me.
I don’t know. I love The Beatles and I don’t like professional wrestling. Will those values suddenly change for me? No. I know myself. That’s just how it is. Same with my marriage.
I think you want the kind of conviction I have, and he wants to be right about an esoteric point. This sounds like a mismatch to me.
posted by argybarg at 10:19 PM on December 15, 2022
I don’t know. I love The Beatles and I don’t like professional wrestling. Will those values suddenly change for me? No. I know myself. That’s just how it is. Same with my marriage.
I think you want the kind of conviction I have, and he wants to be right about an esoteric point. This sounds like a mismatch to me.
posted by argybarg at 10:19 PM on December 15, 2022
This thread is closed to new comments.
The yelling is more worrisome IMO.
posted by kapers at 8:40 AM on December 12, 2022 [77 favorites]