How to confirm a story
June 18, 2018 8:08 AM Subscribe
A good friend has asked me to verify the background story of his fiancee. I'm not sure how to start.
A good friend of mine has fallen for a woman he met on-line. He has met her in person, they are dating, he's madly in love. They live an hour apart and see each other regularly. When he started to tell me her life story, it was jaw droppingly awful. Think, run away from home at 12, used and abused and sold to men, in and out of drugs and jail, six kids by four men, living in abject poverty. I know the kids are real, and her husband of the last 20 years is real.
He asked me to vet her as hard as possible, as he wants to marry her, and is afraid his love for her is clouding her judgment. I have no reason to doubt her story other than it sounds like something out of a terrible terrible book.
How would you go about vetting the rest of this story? I have names, birthdate, passport. I've been able to verify her marriage but not her allegedly complete divorce. Can you run a background check without someone's permission? Is there a company that would do this kind of vetting?
A good friend of mine has fallen for a woman he met on-line. He has met her in person, they are dating, he's madly in love. They live an hour apart and see each other regularly. When he started to tell me her life story, it was jaw droppingly awful. Think, run away from home at 12, used and abused and sold to men, in and out of drugs and jail, six kids by four men, living in abject poverty. I know the kids are real, and her husband of the last 20 years is real.
He asked me to vet her as hard as possible, as he wants to marry her, and is afraid his love for her is clouding her judgment. I have no reason to doubt her story other than it sounds like something out of a terrible terrible book.
How would you go about vetting the rest of this story? I have names, birthdate, passport. I've been able to verify her marriage but not her allegedly complete divorce. Can you run a background check without someone's permission? Is there a company that would do this kind of vetting?
yeah. I would suggest to him he use a professional if he is that worried, but if you are deadset on helping, you may be able access court records online. I know in my state you can. would need all possible incarnations of her name and its not foolproof if you don't find anything for several reasons.
posted by domino at 8:28 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by domino at 8:28 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: No no, I am not a private investigator. I'm just skeptical of the story - it seems like there should be public records of some of the stuff she is claiming, especially because of how she found him and the fact that he has a LOT of money.
I just wondered if I was missing some obvious resource. I'll suggest he get a professional.
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:29 AM on June 18, 2018
I just wondered if I was missing some obvious resource. I'll suggest he get a professional.
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:29 AM on June 18, 2018
Agree that you should not take this on yourself. Even if you were a licensed professional, this is the kind of professional service we shouldn't provide to friends.
As his friend, however, you are in a position to gently ask him why he's in a hurry to marry someone whose general honesty and basic life facts he feels he can't evaluate without a background check. Perhaps he ought to slow his roll if he'd rather investigate than wait until he's comfortable.
I should add that a lot of people have horrible lives that are hard for more privileged folks to comprehend.
posted by kapers at 8:31 AM on June 18, 2018 [48 favorites]
As his friend, however, you are in a position to gently ask him why he's in a hurry to marry someone whose general honesty and basic life facts he feels he can't evaluate without a background check. Perhaps he ought to slow his roll if he'd rather investigate than wait until he's comfortable.
I should add that a lot of people have horrible lives that are hard for more privileged folks to comprehend.
posted by kapers at 8:31 AM on June 18, 2018 [48 favorites]
It turns out that you can hire a private investigator for exactly the situation you describe via Trustify for an hourly rate. I cannot vouch for this service but apparently it exists. There are a variety of "background check" services online as well, which I cannot vouch for either. I did use one years ago to get the phone number of a friend I'd lost touch with. Cost 25 bucks at the time and well worth it to me. (I am not a creeper; she was happy to hear from me.)
posted by Bella Donna at 8:31 AM on June 18, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 8:31 AM on June 18, 2018 [8 favorites]
OP, it is wise of you to recommend he hire a professional. Best of luck to all three of you!
posted by Bella Donna at 8:32 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 8:32 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Court records are generally searchable, so the jail and divorce stuff ought to be visible if you know where to look. Agree getting professional help on this is going to be expedient and probably not very expensive, and well worth it in the long run. And FWIW, even if things don't add up, your friend may not be convinced to drop her like a hot rock. Try to advise sanity and caution; he can slow it down a bit and get to know her better before he marries her, just as I'm sure he'd advise you in a similiar circumstance. But don't set up a you vs. her dynamic.
posted by OneSmartMonkey at 8:37 AM on June 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by OneSmartMonkey at 8:37 AM on June 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
Seconding OneSmartMonkey's recommendation to advise your friend to take it slow and not rush into anything. Also, you might want to have another discussion with him about the PI route... it seems to me like him taking that route would be introducing a level of dishonesty and weirdness into their relationship. Honestly her situation sounds not implausible but if he's getting those vibes it is a red flag that something isn't right. Tell him to trust his gut and move slowly whether he gets you to hire a PI or not.
posted by DTMFA at 8:47 AM on June 18, 2018
posted by DTMFA at 8:47 AM on June 18, 2018
You can run background checks on people via public websites for ~200USD. Much of the information you're looking for (jail, dates of arrest, etc) should be public record wherever it happened. This doesn't mean google-able, it means you have to go to the county or state website and search for it and/or request it there.
OneSmartMonkey has really excellent preparatory advice for you. Even if you found out that none of it was true (or worse, that something _else_ was true), your friend might not deviate from this course and it might divide you as friends. Your friend may be emotionally unable to actually run a background check due to his relationship with this woman. You could facilitate by only asking him to pay for it, while you get it done.
The best advice for your friend would be to slow down and take each step in due time. There's no rush to marry. They should live together first. Etc.
Another question for you, that you shouldn't answer here in a public forum - beyond just the gold-digging implied in your post, does your friend work for a defense contractor, or does his wealth come from somewhere that would be of interest to a third party?
posted by fake at 8:47 AM on June 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
OneSmartMonkey has really excellent preparatory advice for you. Even if you found out that none of it was true (or worse, that something _else_ was true), your friend might not deviate from this course and it might divide you as friends. Your friend may be emotionally unable to actually run a background check due to his relationship with this woman. You could facilitate by only asking him to pay for it, while you get it done.
The best advice for your friend would be to slow down and take each step in due time. There's no rush to marry. They should live together first. Etc.
Another question for you, that you shouldn't answer here in a public forum - beyond just the gold-digging implied in your post, does your friend work for a defense contractor, or does his wealth come from somewhere that would be of interest to a third party?
posted by fake at 8:47 AM on June 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
If he's concerned about his money, the traditional approach is a pre-nup. The private investigator route could be incredibly damaging if she found out. I absolutely wouldn't marry a man who dug into my life like this. I would marry someone who had legitimate financial reasons to have a pre-nup, as long as the pre-nup wasn't horribly unfair.
Tell him to get off this path. It's corrosive and knowing details that she's possibly chosen to keep private won't keep his heart safe. This is a very unhealthy impulse he's having.
posted by quince at 8:50 AM on June 18, 2018 [15 favorites]
Tell him to get off this path. It's corrosive and knowing details that she's possibly chosen to keep private won't keep his heart safe. This is a very unhealthy impulse he's having.
posted by quince at 8:50 AM on June 18, 2018 [15 favorites]
FWIW, something similar happened to a friend of mine (a person with a mysterious past/a different SO came into their life and pushed them hard toward marriage very quickly), and the confusing signals and missing pieces turned out to be mental illness.
An important book often mentioned on AskMe is The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker. It teaches you to trust your gut and read small signals before things go wrong. Might be a good read for both of you, if you haven't read it already.
posted by fake at 8:52 AM on June 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
An important book often mentioned on AskMe is The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker. It teaches you to trust your gut and read small signals before things go wrong. Might be a good read for both of you, if you haven't read it already.
posted by fake at 8:52 AM on June 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
Before you commence, ask him to think hard about how he'll feel about finding out ugly things. She could be lying/ exaggerating. She could have some criminal history, many people who experience abuse do whatever they can to get out, and/or may have poor role models and early life training. Just learning the details of someone's abuse can be very difficult. And she could be a hustler, flat-out lying.
If he asks for advice, I would urge him to take it really slow. This is a person with a *lot* of baggage. In my family's quite recent experience, that level of baggage is deeply problematic.
If she is not in therapy, that would be a massive red flag; that kind of early abuse, dysfunction, and trauma creates lifelong issues.
posted by theora55 at 9:26 AM on June 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
If he asks for advice, I would urge him to take it really slow. This is a person with a *lot* of baggage. In my family's quite recent experience, that level of baggage is deeply problematic.
If she is not in therapy, that would be a massive red flag; that kind of early abuse, dysfunction, and trauma creates lifelong issues.
posted by theora55 at 9:26 AM on June 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
Juvenile court records are sealed, so if she ran away at 12 there would not be any way to find those records. If she's really been to jail as an adult those records are available. However, it would be best for your friend to hire an experienced investigator to look into it. She or he would also be able to find divorce records, if they exist.
posted by mareli at 9:30 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by mareli at 9:30 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
You should get all the way out of this and you should reflect on your friendship with a man who has a lot of money but asked you to do this. Something isn't adding up on his side.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 9:33 AM on June 18, 2018 [25 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 9:33 AM on June 18, 2018 [25 favorites]
How long have they known each other?
I have a crazy life story and it's all true. Not sure how some of it could be verified by a PI, but I've had a really weird life. And if a boyfriend thought I was lying and that the only way he could verify my past was to ... hire a PI or ask friends and give them personal information like my passport....? Man, I'd way prefer he dump me. Relationships require trust to work. Why doesn't he trust her?
He should probably dig around into his role here a bit: why doesn't he trust her, why does he feel a need to marry right now if he doesn't trust her, etc. And if he feels he needs to hire a PI he can but like .... that alone is a red flag, is it not?
posted by sockermom at 9:35 AM on June 18, 2018 [18 favorites]
I have a crazy life story and it's all true. Not sure how some of it could be verified by a PI, but I've had a really weird life. And if a boyfriend thought I was lying and that the only way he could verify my past was to ... hire a PI or ask friends and give them personal information like my passport....? Man, I'd way prefer he dump me. Relationships require trust to work. Why doesn't he trust her?
He should probably dig around into his role here a bit: why doesn't he trust her, why does he feel a need to marry right now if he doesn't trust her, etc. And if he feels he needs to hire a PI he can but like .... that alone is a red flag, is it not?
posted by sockermom at 9:35 AM on June 18, 2018 [18 favorites]
What has she done to deserve this level of scutiny? Has she acted untrustworthy in any other way? If I was her, I'd be unbelievably hurt that the man I loved did this to me. If the only thing you and your friend has to go one is that her story is particularly horrific, then I'd suggest reevaluating how you trust women, especially victims of sexual violence
posted by FirstMateKate at 10:11 AM on June 18, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by FirstMateKate at 10:11 AM on June 18, 2018 [15 favorites]
I have a somewhat unbelievable background in some respects. All I really want to say about that is that when you're abused as a kid and your family is not functional, it can put you at risk of predation in multiple ways at multiple points and I do believe there are predators out there really good at looking for those people. Not to mention the instability that comes from never having been stable.
Most of what's relevant to my suitability as a partner (integrity, emotional issues, etc.) are not things that you can check in a background check. I echo that if his gut is telling him this, he should listen. But if it's more that he doesn't think all that could happen to one person, he might need to do some background reading.
In your list of things above I think all you could really gather would be birth records, jail (after the age that juvenile records are sealed I believe?) and marriage/divorce records. They may support her story but they aren't going to answer the question of whether she's a person of integrity or not.
I think the advice I would give you is not to get involved, and to hire a professional.
But to your friend, I would advise that he should slow down. Long time before engagement, long time before legal marriage. If this is a partner worth marrying, it's worth waiting. If there's some other kind of rush (immigration status, health insurance) then that's a sign there's a lot at stake and also slow down.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:23 AM on June 18, 2018 [8 favorites]
Most of what's relevant to my suitability as a partner (integrity, emotional issues, etc.) are not things that you can check in a background check. I echo that if his gut is telling him this, he should listen. But if it's more that he doesn't think all that could happen to one person, he might need to do some background reading.
In your list of things above I think all you could really gather would be birth records, jail (after the age that juvenile records are sealed I believe?) and marriage/divorce records. They may support her story but they aren't going to answer the question of whether she's a person of integrity or not.
I think the advice I would give you is not to get involved, and to hire a professional.
But to your friend, I would advise that he should slow down. Long time before engagement, long time before legal marriage. If this is a partner worth marrying, it's worth waiting. If there's some other kind of rush (immigration status, health insurance) then that's a sign there's a lot at stake and also slow down.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:23 AM on June 18, 2018 [8 favorites]
A good friend has asked me to verify the background story of his fiancee. I'm not sure how to start.
"that would make me uncomfortable, i'm sorry."
posted by zippy at 10:35 AM on June 18, 2018 [13 favorites]
"that would make me uncomfortable, i'm sorry."
posted by zippy at 10:35 AM on June 18, 2018 [13 favorites]
if it's more that he doesn't think all that could happen to one person, he might need to do some background reading
This is very true--but it's also true that the horrific sob story is a tool of scammers, as it allows the mark to cast himself in the role of white knight. An unfortunate ambiguity.
A person who is very wealthy is more likely to be the target of certain kinds of scammers and is not unreasonable to take more elaborate steps to avoid being ripped off than would you or I. But why doesn't he tell her he wants to run a background check? If she is legitimate, she should understand (or have the chance to walk away, if she finds it unacceptable). He will be able to get considerably more information about her with her consent than not.
posted by praemunire at 11:06 AM on June 18, 2018 [9 favorites]
This is very true--but it's also true that the horrific sob story is a tool of scammers, as it allows the mark to cast himself in the role of white knight. An unfortunate ambiguity.
A person who is very wealthy is more likely to be the target of certain kinds of scammers and is not unreasonable to take more elaborate steps to avoid being ripped off than would you or I. But why doesn't he tell her he wants to run a background check? If she is legitimate, she should understand (or have the chance to walk away, if she finds it unacceptable). He will be able to get considerably more information about her with her consent than not.
posted by praemunire at 11:06 AM on June 18, 2018 [9 favorites]
Aside from being imprisoned, what of this does he think is verifiable? Like does he think some investigator is just gonna walk up to characters from her past involved in drug or sex trades and ask them if they ever did Something Illegal with Someone They Abused or Took Advantage Of? You trying to make her a target again?
Has your friend considered a prenup over this horrible idea of his?
posted by OnefortheLast at 11:24 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Has your friend considered a prenup over this horrible idea of his?
posted by OnefortheLast at 11:24 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Just dittoing the "if your friend has a LOT of money, he should be able to pay a P.I." response. It's weird.
Also, yeah, that's the sort of thing you do need to ask consent for, whether it's a romantic partner or an employee, if you want the relationship to last. Don't snoop on your friends or lovers (or employees). There is no love or trust without honesty.
Something doesn't add up. Be careful of getting involved.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:30 AM on June 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
Also, yeah, that's the sort of thing you do need to ask consent for, whether it's a romantic partner or an employee, if you want the relationship to last. Don't snoop on your friends or lovers (or employees). There is no love or trust without honesty.
Something doesn't add up. Be careful of getting involved.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:30 AM on June 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
This doesn't make a lot of sense. Obviously it would be immoral as well as impossible to do a "background check" into someone's childhood sexual abuse, but what else besides the finality of the divorce is he worried about? a history of arrests and incarceration is checkable but is he seriously concerned that she might not have ever taken drugs or been in legal trouble? Or concerned that she might have been involved with fewer men than she claims? it's as strange that these things would specifically appeal to him as it is that she might invent them to attract him.
before marrying her he needs to know that her divorce is final and what her debt situation is like. these are both things he can just ask her directly about, without accusation. if she refuses to talk about it, he can just not marry her based on that alone.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:32 AM on June 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
before marrying her he needs to know that her divorce is final and what her debt situation is like. these are both things he can just ask her directly about, without accusation. if she refuses to talk about it, he can just not marry her based on that alone.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:32 AM on June 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
especially because of how she found him
how did she find him online (vs. him finding her) and what was suspicious about it?
can't agree enough with the people pointing out to you that in order to provide you with her passport, he has either stolen or secretly copied her private documents. She may or may not be dishonest, but you already know he is. do whatever searches you want, but do not use illicitly obtained information you have no right to possess.
plenty of people are wary of internet randos, plenty of rich people demand prenups. he'd be within his rights for either. but I know nobody who wouldn't readily acknowledge that sure, they sometimes google a guy to make sure he's not a notorious criminal; or sure, they want to maintain separate accounts. you don't lie to people you date about that kind of safety precaution because it's not wrong. this is. this is like a cautionary tale for women about how you should never tell an internet date your last name or leave him alone in your apartment, ever.
imagine thinking you want to marry a man, and the whole time he's been telling his good friend -- whom you will probably meet if you get married! -- all about your history of 'use and abuse' as a child. I hope for her sake she is a scammer because that part especially is just awful of him.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:49 AM on June 18, 2018 [16 favorites]
how did she find him online (vs. him finding her) and what was suspicious about it?
can't agree enough with the people pointing out to you that in order to provide you with her passport, he has either stolen or secretly copied her private documents. She may or may not be dishonest, but you already know he is. do whatever searches you want, but do not use illicitly obtained information you have no right to possess.
plenty of people are wary of internet randos, plenty of rich people demand prenups. he'd be within his rights for either. but I know nobody who wouldn't readily acknowledge that sure, they sometimes google a guy to make sure he's not a notorious criminal; or sure, they want to maintain separate accounts. you don't lie to people you date about that kind of safety precaution because it's not wrong. this is. this is like a cautionary tale for women about how you should never tell an internet date your last name or leave him alone in your apartment, ever.
imagine thinking you want to marry a man, and the whole time he's been telling his good friend -- whom you will probably meet if you get married! -- all about your history of 'use and abuse' as a child. I hope for her sake she is a scammer because that part especially is just awful of him.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:49 AM on June 18, 2018 [16 favorites]
I'm wondering what he's worried he might find out that would put him off.
posted by biffa at 11:59 AM on June 18, 2018
posted by biffa at 11:59 AM on June 18, 2018
From what little you describe, OP, it would appear that the woman in question has been living a relatively normal married life for the last 20 years.
It is extremely irresponsible to assume that childhood abuse can (or will) cause someone to become a criminal, dysfunctional, unable to deal with trauma, a liar, a "huckster," or any other kind of terrible behavior. Most survivors grow up to live normal lives and do not become scam artists. Childhood abuse is a form of baggage, but it is not in any way a predictable factor that someone will become a lying, abusive adult.
People usually manage to rise above that which has been done to them.
OP, you want to protect your friend and that's a valuable impulse. But marriages are built on trust. If he can't trust her now enough to take her word for what she's been through, he sure as hell shouldn't be marrying her. Private investigations don't create trust. They will only feed mistrust. Even if the PI finds nothing other than that her childhood is what she says it is, it won't solve the basic problem: he doesn't trust her.
And frankly, that's a shitty foundation on which to build a relationship or a marriage.
posted by zarq at 12:09 PM on June 18, 2018 [12 favorites]
It is extremely irresponsible to assume that childhood abuse can (or will) cause someone to become a criminal, dysfunctional, unable to deal with trauma, a liar, a "huckster," or any other kind of terrible behavior. Most survivors grow up to live normal lives and do not become scam artists. Childhood abuse is a form of baggage, but it is not in any way a predictable factor that someone will become a lying, abusive adult.
People usually manage to rise above that which has been done to them.
OP, you want to protect your friend and that's a valuable impulse. But marriages are built on trust. If he can't trust her now enough to take her word for what she's been through, he sure as hell shouldn't be marrying her. Private investigations don't create trust. They will only feed mistrust. Even if the PI finds nothing other than that her childhood is what she says it is, it won't solve the basic problem: he doesn't trust her.
And frankly, that's a shitty foundation on which to build a relationship or a marriage.
posted by zarq at 12:09 PM on June 18, 2018 [12 favorites]
what else besides the finality of the divorce is he worried about? a history of arrests and incarceration is checkable but is he seriously concerned that she might not have ever taken drugs or been in legal trouble?
The one thing that does come to mind that seems reasonable is that "yes, I've been in legal trouble" can cover a lot of things--from early convictions for prostitution or drug use that might be easily understood as the kind of harm that can befall a teenage girl on her own trying to survive, to, e.g., convictions for fraud in more recent years, which would tell a different story. Similarly, getting arrested for pot possession has different implications than for dealing serious weight in heroin.
I agree it was highly inappropriate of him to disclose her history of sexual abuse, though. OP is well-advised to stay clear of this.
posted by praemunire at 12:10 PM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
The one thing that does come to mind that seems reasonable is that "yes, I've been in legal trouble" can cover a lot of things--from early convictions for prostitution or drug use that might be easily understood as the kind of harm that can befall a teenage girl on her own trying to survive, to, e.g., convictions for fraud in more recent years, which would tell a different story. Similarly, getting arrested for pot possession has different implications than for dealing serious weight in heroin.
I agree it was highly inappropriate of him to disclose her history of sexual abuse, though. OP is well-advised to stay clear of this.
posted by praemunire at 12:10 PM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure public records will help you vet this story. I'm sure there are probably some one-off background check services you could use for arrests and such. I used to have access to LexisNexis and a service called SmartLinx where you could look up a person and it would aggregate all the public records it could find, so it could let you find arrests, past addresses, voter registrations, etc. I don't think you'll be able to get a subscription for that though - I had to jump through many hoops to sign up. I'm sure there are other services. But again, as for the story about being sold to men and stuff, that would be hard to vet.
Do you know where the divorce should've taken place? That's public info. I had to find someone's divorce once and you call around to get the correct records office and then, at least in this particular state, you could submit an open records request to get all the divorce filings. It took weeks to get the record, but I got it and it was a messy divorce. Maybe a website like this can get you started. You probably want to start with a court clerk or records officer and say you're looking for a divorce record.
When I did stuff like this, I would get all previous known addresses and I would also submit open records request for anything related John Doe. So I'd see if I could get any police reports of disturbances or arrests at John Doe's known residence. All I ever got back was noise complaints and nothingburgers. You use court websites to search for any records involving the person, or you submit open records requests if you have to. You want to think about any public records that may exist about someone and find them. You also want to look at someone's entire social media presence, reverse google their phone numbers and email addresses, etc. There's whole checklist of stuff you do to dig into someone that's more than I can share here or remember at the moment.
All of that aside, unless you have some sort of background doing this kind of stuff, why is he asking you? He should indeed contact a private investigator. Many of them are former cops. Or he should contact someone with experience in opposition research, like me. If you do a good thorough job, this is many hours of work and is not something you ask a friend to do.
posted by AppleTurnover at 12:37 PM on June 18, 2018
Do you know where the divorce should've taken place? That's public info. I had to find someone's divorce once and you call around to get the correct records office and then, at least in this particular state, you could submit an open records request to get all the divorce filings. It took weeks to get the record, but I got it and it was a messy divorce. Maybe a website like this can get you started. You probably want to start with a court clerk or records officer and say you're looking for a divorce record.
When I did stuff like this, I would get all previous known addresses and I would also submit open records request for anything related John Doe. So I'd see if I could get any police reports of disturbances or arrests at John Doe's known residence. All I ever got back was noise complaints and nothingburgers. You use court websites to search for any records involving the person, or you submit open records requests if you have to. You want to think about any public records that may exist about someone and find them. You also want to look at someone's entire social media presence, reverse google their phone numbers and email addresses, etc. There's whole checklist of stuff you do to dig into someone that's more than I can share here or remember at the moment.
All of that aside, unless you have some sort of background doing this kind of stuff, why is he asking you? He should indeed contact a private investigator. Many of them are former cops. Or he should contact someone with experience in opposition research, like me. If you do a good thorough job, this is many hours of work and is not something you ask a friend to do.
posted by AppleTurnover at 12:37 PM on June 18, 2018
you should reflect on your friendship with a man who has a lot of money but asked you to do this. Something isn't adding up on his side.
So, I know a lot of people who really do have the kinds of traumatic backgrounds your friend's fiancee is describing, and yes, it can be difficult for people who come from stable lives to wrap their heads around. Like... six kids by four men is not something that just happens in exploitation books. It speaks to an extended chaotic period in someone's life, but isn't so out of the ordinary it might as well be made up, you know?
On the other hand, I just helped evict a serial con-man and catfish from the home of some good friends he was trying to scam, which involved digging up his publicly documented history of partner abuse, false medical fundraiser scams for terminal conditions that didn't exist, etc. He also at one point, during a different identity phase, claimed to have been a runaway and child prostitute; that's a story a lot of pathological liars gravitate towards because it's something that elicits such a strong protective emotional reaction from people who hear it, and really throws the people who have gone through that kind of trauma under the bus.
It sounds like what your friend is worried about, or should be worried about, is not that his fiancee has a rough and traumatizing past and is a recovered drug user who escaped a very hard childhood, but that she is a pathological liar who is making this stuff up, both to scam her way into a marriage with him and for whatever reason these people do what they do. I unfortunately think that's not unreasonable if he's getting that gut feeling that something is not right, rather than just disbelief that anyone could have had that kind of life. But there is no reason for your rich friend to put the burden of this on you, an unqualified person, when he can afford to do it the right way, and in a way that he's personally accountable for both individually and financially, instead of essentially roping you into relationship drama and subterfuge. Tell him thank you for confiding his worries with you but that you cannot do what he wants you to. What he needs to do is hire a PI, who can do something like go to her hometown and see if she graduated from the same elementary, middle, and high schools while claiming to have been a 12 year old runaway living on the streets in another city, or something like that. Not something you, a normal person, can do with a basic internet search, and not something you should be doing uncompensated because it's an enormous time and emotional labor sink. If it turns out that she's telling the truth and your friend is harboring some classist assumptions, you digging into her privacy is going to he a horrible, violating thing hanging over your relationship with them as a couple. Tell him no, tell him to slow down, and tell him to get this done right if he wants to do it at all.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 3:39 PM on June 18, 2018 [9 favorites]
So, I know a lot of people who really do have the kinds of traumatic backgrounds your friend's fiancee is describing, and yes, it can be difficult for people who come from stable lives to wrap their heads around. Like... six kids by four men is not something that just happens in exploitation books. It speaks to an extended chaotic period in someone's life, but isn't so out of the ordinary it might as well be made up, you know?
On the other hand, I just helped evict a serial con-man and catfish from the home of some good friends he was trying to scam, which involved digging up his publicly documented history of partner abuse, false medical fundraiser scams for terminal conditions that didn't exist, etc. He also at one point, during a different identity phase, claimed to have been a runaway and child prostitute; that's a story a lot of pathological liars gravitate towards because it's something that elicits such a strong protective emotional reaction from people who hear it, and really throws the people who have gone through that kind of trauma under the bus.
It sounds like what your friend is worried about, or should be worried about, is not that his fiancee has a rough and traumatizing past and is a recovered drug user who escaped a very hard childhood, but that she is a pathological liar who is making this stuff up, both to scam her way into a marriage with him and for whatever reason these people do what they do. I unfortunately think that's not unreasonable if he's getting that gut feeling that something is not right, rather than just disbelief that anyone could have had that kind of life. But there is no reason for your rich friend to put the burden of this on you, an unqualified person, when he can afford to do it the right way, and in a way that he's personally accountable for both individually and financially, instead of essentially roping you into relationship drama and subterfuge. Tell him thank you for confiding his worries with you but that you cannot do what he wants you to. What he needs to do is hire a PI, who can do something like go to her hometown and see if she graduated from the same elementary, middle, and high schools while claiming to have been a 12 year old runaway living on the streets in another city, or something like that. Not something you, a normal person, can do with a basic internet search, and not something you should be doing uncompensated because it's an enormous time and emotional labor sink. If it turns out that she's telling the truth and your friend is harboring some classist assumptions, you digging into her privacy is going to he a horrible, violating thing hanging over your relationship with them as a couple. Tell him no, tell him to slow down, and tell him to get this done right if he wants to do it at all.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 3:39 PM on June 18, 2018 [9 favorites]
I absolutely wouldn't marry a man who dug into my life like this. I would marry someone who had legitimate financial reasons to have a pre-nup, as long as the pre-nup wasn't horribly unfair.
OTOH, I would've had no problem with my husband running a detailed background check on me, but would not have signed a pre-nup. I have no problems with suspicions while getting into a relationship; I do have problems with distrust once it's established. If she loves him, and wants to spend the rest of her life with him, she should understand that he'd be worried and want to confirm the details of an unusual background story.
... And maybe you could do a bit of digging for him, but if he's got enough money to worry about a gold digger, he's got enough money to pay for someone who knows how to do that kind of research. Never mind the potential schism if you turn up something he doesn't want to acknowledge; imagine the problems if you failed to find something out because you didn't know how to verify some aspects of her story.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:56 PM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
OTOH, I would've had no problem with my husband running a detailed background check on me, but would not have signed a pre-nup. I have no problems with suspicions while getting into a relationship; I do have problems with distrust once it's established. If she loves him, and wants to spend the rest of her life with him, she should understand that he'd be worried and want to confirm the details of an unusual background story.
... And maybe you could do a bit of digging for him, but if he's got enough money to worry about a gold digger, he's got enough money to pay for someone who knows how to do that kind of research. Never mind the potential schism if you turn up something he doesn't want to acknowledge; imagine the problems if you failed to find something out because you didn't know how to verify some aspects of her story.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:56 PM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
He might suspect something middlingly bad will turn up (but not as bad as her being a legitimate scam artist) and is using you as the person to assign responsibility for the discovery. "Jimjam found out you've been on trial for false testimony. I don't know why s/he looked into it, maybe it's because we're close friends and s/he's protective of me." He's probably willing to confront her if the PI comes up with something truly incriminating, but how is he going to say he PI-ed her if it's something not as bad?
posted by thesockpuppet at 8:26 PM on June 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by thesockpuppet at 8:26 PM on June 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing he asked you because the same factors that give you pause also give him pause, in the rational part of his mind; and because he feels like "I hired a PI to look into your claims" is a different conversation than "my friend got curious", in the event that he has to have the conversation.
Anyway, as outlined above by moonlightonvermont, a PI can look into at least some of this stuff. It's extremely time consuming; that's why it's a profession. And yes, there is plenty of reason to be wary of the situation you've outlined here. I myself have heard the "sold to men" thing in the context of a completely made up story (in this case it wasn't a scam for money, just a fishing for attention/sympathy thing... the story that was confided to me, in utmost earnestness, turned out to have been the plot of a Dr Phil episode that broadcast a few days earlier.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:44 AM on June 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Anyway, as outlined above by moonlightonvermont, a PI can look into at least some of this stuff. It's extremely time consuming; that's why it's a profession. And yes, there is plenty of reason to be wary of the situation you've outlined here. I myself have heard the "sold to men" thing in the context of a completely made up story (in this case it wasn't a scam for money, just a fishing for attention/sympathy thing... the story that was confided to me, in utmost earnestness, turned out to have been the plot of a Dr Phil episode that broadcast a few days earlier.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:44 AM on June 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
My experience with this is so so very different than what has been guessed, implied, and assumed here, and I really hope that I can word this in a way sans emotional reaction that won't be moderated. Here goes...
Firstly, some parts of my life story are similarly unbelievable. I've also met and befriended many others who share similar experiences. So I'm speaking from that vantage point.
Generally, when you've had an exponentially challenging life, this is not something that is a point of pride. It's a deeply shameful and embarrassing thing that leaves you with a while lot of permanent dammage and emotional baggage, and only though years of therapy and self work, can you get to a place where your defensiveness about such things comes across to others more like, "Im proud of how strong I am," or something similar.
Next, the recalling and retelling of such experiences is widely acknowledged through psychiatry, to be of a mixed/confusing presentation for the reciever. This has to do with how our psyches process trauma. Those unfamiliar and untrained in that profession generally call these inconsistencies Lying.
In social context, those who haven't personally witnessed traumatic experiences, will have trouble even comprehending or imagining them. Many are socially conditioned to accept and mentally/emotionally process these realities as nothing more than an entertainment plot line.
In interpersonal relationships, those who've lived it, have had a lifetime of conditioning as well. They understand the general social understandings, they've experienced others reactions to it, and they also underwent a different type of conditioning necessary for it to have even occurred in the first place. They are well aware of the discrepancies between realities. What this looks like, in reality, is a person who, will share only bits and pieces of their experiences in certain situations, and retell them differently according to the listener and where they are at personally in terms of processing it. Ie. There are "safe" people to tell and there are "unsafe" people to tell. Some you lie to about your life, some you tell some truth to, and very rarely does anyone get the full or acurate story, including that person themselves, because their psyche has to protect itself according to what it can handle accepting and understanding about what happened to its person.
Now this is important for your friend to understand and take into account when attempting to vet her history.
In addition, survivors of abuse are also well aware of how this baggage is percieved by significant others. It is more often than not a dealbreaker, so there's much pressure to disclose it far sooner than you're ready to or capable of doing properly. It also immediately and significantly changes how another person views you and treats you, and this both is affected by how the information is presented and the fact that the initial impression it makes cannot be undone.
Contrary to common belief, receivers of traumatic life stories by their tellers, in my experience and knowledge, do not display compassion, empathy, sympathy etc. unless they've personally experienced it. What they do always do, in my experience and knowledge, is form a negative opinion of the survivor that includes any or all of the following applied: That the person is weak, naive, has poor judgment/values/morals, a victim complex, is attention seeking, is mentally ill, will assuredly carry on some of their afflictions in their own lives actions and choices, that they are lying, delusional, telling such things for alterior motives, that they are mentally and/or emotionally fragile and must be handled with "kid gloves", that they are abusers themselves, are immoral unstable unreliable untrustworthy etc. Etc. Etc.... basically a whole lot of judgements are broad-brush applied to the victim, that realistically, should instead be applied to the perpetrators.
Lastly, much of these things occur in secrecy, under gaslighting, manipulating circumstances which make it fully impossible to recall a full and acurate retell of events. This is why so many victims fail to receive justice in court, and are better served by the mental health community, even in absence of any legitimate mental health issues.
Given all of this, victims of abuse and crime take massive risks in disclosing their personal life stories, it affects each and every one of their interpersonal relationships, past present and future.
Another very important thing worth mentioning, is something your friend has done, which he may not realize is dangerous and puts her at further risk: he repeated what he was told in confidence to others, and even went further as to ask another to intervene in a way that would raise massive red flags for any of her perpetrators who are still within her vicinity or connected to her by association, and opened her to the risk of being retargeted, retaliated against, or revictimized.
A very final note and warning: those who's life stories are full of trauma, will have a degree of betrayal trauma. This is psychiatric injury, not mental illness. Your friend has now risked triggering her betrayal trauma all over again, undoing any progress she's made towards healing. He's likely permanently damaged or straight up sabotaged the relationship.
As for your friend himself, it sounds like he has some very urgent self-worth issues, trust issues, and general relationship anxiety, to such a severe degree that he's justifying coordinating a group stalking effort to placate those issues. Please encourage him to seek out a therapist, that's the best way you can help in this situation. If he is insistent on following through with this plan, at the very least, advise him to present his findings to a qualified psychiatrist in trauma/ptsd/ domestic abuse/ drug &sex trade culture etc. to give a more fair and neural assessment on any findings. If he fails to do this, he'll simply be perpetuating the inadequacies and failures of the legal and justice systems assessments towards victims.
posted by OnefortheLast at 1:49 PM on June 19, 2018 [11 favorites]
Firstly, some parts of my life story are similarly unbelievable. I've also met and befriended many others who share similar experiences. So I'm speaking from that vantage point.
Generally, when you've had an exponentially challenging life, this is not something that is a point of pride. It's a deeply shameful and embarrassing thing that leaves you with a while lot of permanent dammage and emotional baggage, and only though years of therapy and self work, can you get to a place where your defensiveness about such things comes across to others more like, "Im proud of how strong I am," or something similar.
Next, the recalling and retelling of such experiences is widely acknowledged through psychiatry, to be of a mixed/confusing presentation for the reciever. This has to do with how our psyches process trauma. Those unfamiliar and untrained in that profession generally call these inconsistencies Lying.
In social context, those who haven't personally witnessed traumatic experiences, will have trouble even comprehending or imagining them. Many are socially conditioned to accept and mentally/emotionally process these realities as nothing more than an entertainment plot line.
In interpersonal relationships, those who've lived it, have had a lifetime of conditioning as well. They understand the general social understandings, they've experienced others reactions to it, and they also underwent a different type of conditioning necessary for it to have even occurred in the first place. They are well aware of the discrepancies between realities. What this looks like, in reality, is a person who, will share only bits and pieces of their experiences in certain situations, and retell them differently according to the listener and where they are at personally in terms of processing it. Ie. There are "safe" people to tell and there are "unsafe" people to tell. Some you lie to about your life, some you tell some truth to, and very rarely does anyone get the full or acurate story, including that person themselves, because their psyche has to protect itself according to what it can handle accepting and understanding about what happened to its person.
Now this is important for your friend to understand and take into account when attempting to vet her history.
In addition, survivors of abuse are also well aware of how this baggage is percieved by significant others. It is more often than not a dealbreaker, so there's much pressure to disclose it far sooner than you're ready to or capable of doing properly. It also immediately and significantly changes how another person views you and treats you, and this both is affected by how the information is presented and the fact that the initial impression it makes cannot be undone.
Contrary to common belief, receivers of traumatic life stories by their tellers, in my experience and knowledge, do not display compassion, empathy, sympathy etc. unless they've personally experienced it. What they do always do, in my experience and knowledge, is form a negative opinion of the survivor that includes any or all of the following applied: That the person is weak, naive, has poor judgment/values/morals, a victim complex, is attention seeking, is mentally ill, will assuredly carry on some of their afflictions in their own lives actions and choices, that they are lying, delusional, telling such things for alterior motives, that they are mentally and/or emotionally fragile and must be handled with "kid gloves", that they are abusers themselves, are immoral unstable unreliable untrustworthy etc. Etc. Etc.... basically a whole lot of judgements are broad-brush applied to the victim, that realistically, should instead be applied to the perpetrators.
Lastly, much of these things occur in secrecy, under gaslighting, manipulating circumstances which make it fully impossible to recall a full and acurate retell of events. This is why so many victims fail to receive justice in court, and are better served by the mental health community, even in absence of any legitimate mental health issues.
Given all of this, victims of abuse and crime take massive risks in disclosing their personal life stories, it affects each and every one of their interpersonal relationships, past present and future.
Another very important thing worth mentioning, is something your friend has done, which he may not realize is dangerous and puts her at further risk: he repeated what he was told in confidence to others, and even went further as to ask another to intervene in a way that would raise massive red flags for any of her perpetrators who are still within her vicinity or connected to her by association, and opened her to the risk of being retargeted, retaliated against, or revictimized.
A very final note and warning: those who's life stories are full of trauma, will have a degree of betrayal trauma. This is psychiatric injury, not mental illness. Your friend has now risked triggering her betrayal trauma all over again, undoing any progress she's made towards healing. He's likely permanently damaged or straight up sabotaged the relationship.
As for your friend himself, it sounds like he has some very urgent self-worth issues, trust issues, and general relationship anxiety, to such a severe degree that he's justifying coordinating a group stalking effort to placate those issues. Please encourage him to seek out a therapist, that's the best way you can help in this situation. If he is insistent on following through with this plan, at the very least, advise him to present his findings to a qualified psychiatrist in trauma/ptsd/ domestic abuse/ drug &sex trade culture etc. to give a more fair and neural assessment on any findings. If he fails to do this, he'll simply be perpetuating the inadequacies and failures of the legal and justice systems assessments towards victims.
posted by OnefortheLast at 1:49 PM on June 19, 2018 [11 favorites]
« Older Are there any discussion forums left? | Giving a post-wedding celebration party that... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by notorious medium at 8:13 AM on June 18, 2018 [62 favorites]