Would she look prettier if she smiled more?
March 29, 2016 11:03 PM Subscribe
At a restaurant the other night, I returned from the table to hear my brother-in-law tell my daughter that she should smile because it makes her look prettier. I turned to him, in front of his daughters and my daughter and said, "Uh...what?"
And then, "Um...no. That's not... 'Pretty' is just not...important. Don't...say that." And he kind of sheepishly mumbled back that he was just trying to get her to cheer up. These girls are young, all under eight years old. My father-in-law was there as was my husband and I didn't know what to say in front of the girls or all of them so help me figure this out.
How can I combat toss-off sexist comments without creating a scene? I just couldn't figure out a way to say what I felt needed to say in front of those girls and to him. Honestly, similar things have happened in the past where I've just caught some stupid stuff that he's said and I just have a feeling that he would not have said them in my earshot. Like, he knows that's bullshit but managed to get it in while I almost didn't catch him. His father is extremely sexist and some of the attitudes my BIL was raised with I find distasteful.
No little boy has ever been told that he would look prettier if he smiled more. (Let alone a grown man. I know that BS is coming, too.) I don't want my little girl to be told this and certainly not in front of me and certainly without being defended. It's one thing to not be a sour-puss at the restaurant which she definitely was being. But the reason not to be a sour-puss is because you're annoying everyone who is trying to have a nice meal. It's not because your face should be "pretty" for the benefit of those around them.
I couldn't find an opportunity to address this with him in a private way and eventually the moment seemed to have passed. Besides, if you bring up these "minor" sexist things then everyone starts to hate you so I haven't wanted to be that woman. But, ugh.
This will happen in the future when someone says something mildly sexist to my daughter or about my daughter and I need some go-to phrases or short-sentence reasonings to have in my back pocket that don't escalate or make a scene or make my daughter feel unduly in the limelight in that moment. Any ideas?
And then, "Um...no. That's not... 'Pretty' is just not...important. Don't...say that." And he kind of sheepishly mumbled back that he was just trying to get her to cheer up. These girls are young, all under eight years old. My father-in-law was there as was my husband and I didn't know what to say in front of the girls or all of them so help me figure this out.
How can I combat toss-off sexist comments without creating a scene? I just couldn't figure out a way to say what I felt needed to say in front of those girls and to him. Honestly, similar things have happened in the past where I've just caught some stupid stuff that he's said and I just have a feeling that he would not have said them in my earshot. Like, he knows that's bullshit but managed to get it in while I almost didn't catch him. His father is extremely sexist and some of the attitudes my BIL was raised with I find distasteful.
No little boy has ever been told that he would look prettier if he smiled more. (Let alone a grown man. I know that BS is coming, too.) I don't want my little girl to be told this and certainly not in front of me and certainly without being defended. It's one thing to not be a sour-puss at the restaurant which she definitely was being. But the reason not to be a sour-puss is because you're annoying everyone who is trying to have a nice meal. It's not because your face should be "pretty" for the benefit of those around them.
I couldn't find an opportunity to address this with him in a private way and eventually the moment seemed to have passed. Besides, if you bring up these "minor" sexist things then everyone starts to hate you so I haven't wanted to be that woman. But, ugh.
This will happen in the future when someone says something mildly sexist to my daughter or about my daughter and I need some go-to phrases or short-sentence reasonings to have in my back pocket that don't escalate or make a scene or make my daughter feel unduly in the limelight in that moment. Any ideas?
"Nobody should have to smile if they don't feel like smiling. Why would you want someone to lie about how they're feeling?"
Also, please continue to be that woman. It's okay, those of us who are that woman absolutely have to be that woman until the day it's no longer necessary.
posted by erst at 11:13 PM on March 29, 2016 [246 favorites]
Also, please continue to be that woman. It's okay, those of us who are that woman absolutely have to be that woman until the day it's no longer necessary.
posted by erst at 11:13 PM on March 29, 2016 [246 favorites]
"She's not here for your amusement."
posted by Violet Hour at 11:33 PM on March 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Violet Hour at 11:33 PM on March 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
...then everyone starts to hate you so I haven't wanted to be that woman...
Instead of having this be you vs. the in-laws, what does your partner feel about this? Could the two of you discuss this as a team so that the response is "this is the terminology/values/etc" that we use/don't use as an anony family, and your partner can speak up as often as you do so it isn't viewed as a problem with you.
I'm not certain as to what phrases to use, but most friends that I have with kids (from 3-10 yrs) focus on helping their kids with strategies to self-soothe, etc. (ie, if you are sad, try to take a deep breath, sit in your room for a while, etc.)... maybe that could be the approach to use and recommend instead of gendered commentary (ie, for girls the "pretty if you smile" or "boys don't cry", etc.) for how to express emotions?
Nthing talk to your daughter about this away from the family. Ideally, I would try to give your child alternative points of view instead of the comments that your in laws are stating, both for now and when she is older.
posted by Wolfster at 11:58 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Instead of having this be you vs. the in-laws, what does your partner feel about this? Could the two of you discuss this as a team so that the response is "this is the terminology/values/etc" that we use/don't use as an anony family, and your partner can speak up as often as you do so it isn't viewed as a problem with you.
I'm not certain as to what phrases to use, but most friends that I have with kids (from 3-10 yrs) focus on helping their kids with strategies to self-soothe, etc. (ie, if you are sad, try to take a deep breath, sit in your room for a while, etc.)... maybe that could be the approach to use and recommend instead of gendered commentary (ie, for girls the "pretty if you smile" or "boys don't cry", etc.) for how to express emotions?
Nthing talk to your daughter about this away from the family. Ideally, I would try to give your child alternative points of view instead of the comments that your in laws are stating, both for now and when she is older.
posted by Wolfster at 11:58 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'd have caused the scene.
I have to admit it's mainly because I'm an asshole who likes causing scenes. But partly I hope it also shows my daughter that her feelings are important and that she doesn't have to put up with that shit. My daughter's reaction would probably have been a variation of "why don't you go fuck yourself" but then her primary role model is an asshole who likes to cause scenes.
Ok to be less flippant, as a man my initial response is both egotistical and self-centered. I am choosing to impart those values to my child because from my perspective it is simply unfair that women are denied the asshole response and I hope it gives my daughter greater options in choosing what her response would be. Our patriarchal society will constantly tell her to demure, to not cause a scene and I just want to provide a little bit of balance.
This is my way not the right way and there will be far more nuanced and intelligent responses from those not following the "what the fuck did you just say" asshole parenting model. Whatever you choose I wish you and your daughter luck.
posted by fullerine at 12:10 AM on March 30, 2016 [30 favorites]
I have to admit it's mainly because I'm an asshole who likes causing scenes. But partly I hope it also shows my daughter that her feelings are important and that she doesn't have to put up with that shit. My daughter's reaction would probably have been a variation of "why don't you go fuck yourself" but then her primary role model is an asshole who likes to cause scenes.
Ok to be less flippant, as a man my initial response is both egotistical and self-centered. I am choosing to impart those values to my child because from my perspective it is simply unfair that women are denied the asshole response and I hope it gives my daughter greater options in choosing what her response would be. Our patriarchal society will constantly tell her to demure, to not cause a scene and I just want to provide a little bit of balance.
This is my way not the right way and there will be far more nuanced and intelligent responses from those not following the "what the fuck did you just say" asshole parenting model. Whatever you choose I wish you and your daughter luck.
posted by fullerine at 12:10 AM on March 30, 2016 [30 favorites]
It depends on what you want. Do you want to express offense? Do you want to change his future behaviors around your family? Do you want your kid to see that you find those to be fighting words? Do you just want your kid to hear the "smile/pretty" message deconstructed? Because your go-to phrases are going to be different based on your goals.
I think I'd want to deconstruct the message for my kid, and thus would say something like "I disagree with that idea, I think your face is great in all its different expressions."
posted by hungrytiger at 12:27 AM on March 30, 2016 [19 favorites]
I think I'd want to deconstruct the message for my kid, and thus would say something like "I disagree with that idea, I think your face is great in all its different expressions."
posted by hungrytiger at 12:27 AM on March 30, 2016 [19 favorites]
In the interest of keeping your daughter from getting stuck in the middle, I would just say, "that's sexist" and change the subject. Then, when you're at home, you can explain your reasoning to your daughter, in an empowering and affirming way. This way, you're signaling to BIL that his behavior is not okay, while saving the teachable moment for later. I don't think any kid wants to be Exhibit A in a fraught, drawn-out discussion between their parent and a third party. Keep it short, and teach later.
posted by delight at 12:35 AM on March 30, 2016 [85 favorites]
posted by delight at 12:35 AM on March 30, 2016 [85 favorites]
In the interest of keeping your daughter from getting stuck in the middle, I would just say, "that's sexist" and change the subject. Then, when you're at home, you can explain your reasoning to your daughter, in an empowering and affirming way. This way, you're signaling to BIL that his behavior is not okay, while saving the teachable moment for later. I don't think any kid wants to be Exhibit A in a fraught, drawn-out discussion between their parent and a third party. Keep it short, and teach later.
can't favourite this enough times. Don't create a public embarrassing scene with your daughter as the focus. But do explain to her later what is wrong with his statement.
posted by 15L06 at 1:16 AM on March 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
can't favourite this enough times. Don't create a public embarrassing scene with your daughter as the focus. But do explain to her later what is wrong with his statement.
posted by 15L06 at 1:16 AM on March 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
The thing that makes me jump (and that may be a bit of an European perspective as far as I've understood) is that "smiling" is here pitched as a switch-on switch-off thing, independent from the person's emotions, in order to please others.
This is a patently wrong perspective. Smiling is something that happens spontaneously when a person is happy. The presence or absence of a smile is a great help for others to understand what a mood a person is in, in the service of a good straightforward communication.
Fake smiles, on the other hand, are disgustingly difficult to parse. I once worked with a classical singer who wore an always-smiling, positive facial expression right up to the point when she burst out in tears and started berating my ensemble for being callous and critical and so on--nobody had sensed this coming because she did not signal with a single muscle that she was entering a vulnerable patch during our work.
Bottom line: fake smiles are just as bad for the person who's smiling as for everyone else. The only thing they help establish is fundamental confusion about mood and intent.
AND THEN we haven't even talked about the sexist connotations of your brother-in-law's comments that others above have mentioned, or about the fact that there should be no default obligation to make others feel more comfortable around one's person, for little kids as well as for anyone else.
Mention to your daughter that she's bloody entitled to put on any face she feels like putting on; mention to your brother in law that you will take responsibility for managing your kid's smiles, thanks very much, and he please won't. Next time this happens, you blow up and/or remove your offspring from his sphere of influence.
posted by Namlit at 1:22 AM on March 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
This is a patently wrong perspective. Smiling is something that happens spontaneously when a person is happy. The presence or absence of a smile is a great help for others to understand what a mood a person is in, in the service of a good straightforward communication.
Fake smiles, on the other hand, are disgustingly difficult to parse. I once worked with a classical singer who wore an always-smiling, positive facial expression right up to the point when she burst out in tears and started berating my ensemble for being callous and critical and so on--nobody had sensed this coming because she did not signal with a single muscle that she was entering a vulnerable patch during our work.
Bottom line: fake smiles are just as bad for the person who's smiling as for everyone else. The only thing they help establish is fundamental confusion about mood and intent.
AND THEN we haven't even talked about the sexist connotations of your brother-in-law's comments that others above have mentioned, or about the fact that there should be no default obligation to make others feel more comfortable around one's person, for little kids as well as for anyone else.
Mention to your daughter that she's bloody entitled to put on any face she feels like putting on; mention to your brother in law that you will take responsibility for managing your kid's smiles, thanks very much, and he please won't. Next time this happens, you blow up and/or remove your offspring from his sphere of influence.
posted by Namlit at 1:22 AM on March 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'm a mother of young daughters, and I've struggled with similar situations where I've felt torn between what's right and what maintains the peace. There are women who think on their feet and go out guns blazing, and there are those who shut up and maybe have a quiet discussion with their own kids afterwards. But like you, I've been trying for years to locate the elusive, firm but diplomatic golden mean.
Nowadays, my go to phrase in that first moment of WTF is: "Well, I disagree." Delivered as calmly and clearly as I can muster. (I've actually practiced it, that's how much of a conflict avoider I naturally am.)
It usually gets people's attention but leaves them expecting a further explanation, so there's often a pregnant pause which allows me to gather my thoughts. (Which I need, because I can get flustered AF.) Also, the wording sort of centers views and opinions in stead of, you know, people themselves, so they seem to feel less attacked than if you go "What did you just say?"
And from there on, you go on to express your argument, which I think depends a lot on the situation. In this case, given that the kids are so young, I would have simply said that I think that if someone doesn't feel like smiling then they don't have to, and that it's also not important to look pretty all the time.
Because the girls are the ones who I would've meant my words for. When it comes to sexist attitudes, sadly I've long dropped the idea I can actually achieve meaningful change in people who have them. But in my view, standing up against this crap is really important for kids to see.
posted by sively at 1:23 AM on March 30, 2016 [23 favorites]
Nowadays, my go to phrase in that first moment of WTF is: "Well, I disagree." Delivered as calmly and clearly as I can muster. (I've actually practiced it, that's how much of a conflict avoider I naturally am.)
It usually gets people's attention but leaves them expecting a further explanation, so there's often a pregnant pause which allows me to gather my thoughts. (Which I need, because I can get flustered AF.) Also, the wording sort of centers views and opinions in stead of, you know, people themselves, so they seem to feel less attacked than if you go "What did you just say?"
And from there on, you go on to express your argument, which I think depends a lot on the situation. In this case, given that the kids are so young, I would have simply said that I think that if someone doesn't feel like smiling then they don't have to, and that it's also not important to look pretty all the time.
Because the girls are the ones who I would've meant my words for. When it comes to sexist attitudes, sadly I've long dropped the idea I can actually achieve meaningful change in people who have them. But in my view, standing up against this crap is really important for kids to see.
posted by sively at 1:23 AM on March 30, 2016 [23 favorites]
I'm learning how to be that woman. Thanks for asking and helping have the convo here.
We spent some time on the weekend discussing that comment and others with the kids because something like that happened to me and I froze instead of reacting appropriately. And it was approached from both sides. "If someone says/does that to you, say xyz" "If someone says that/does that to someone around you, call them on it." "It's similar to bullying ((my kids are tweens)) but not always with mean intent like bullying."
posted by tilde at 2:44 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
We spent some time on the weekend discussing that comment and others with the kids because something like that happened to me and I froze instead of reacting appropriately. And it was approached from both sides. "If someone says/does that to you, say xyz" "If someone says that/does that to someone around you, call them on it." "It's similar to bullying ((my kids are tweens)) but not always with mean intent like bullying."
posted by tilde at 2:44 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
In that sort of situation I would say "it's not her job in life to look pretty for you or any other man." Then just stare at him quizzically until he gives up. If stating an obvious truth in a mild, neutral tone is somehow "causing a scene" then tough luck to the poor offended man on the receiving end of that.
Basically you will never win with a misogynist guy like that so fuck em, might as well say what you think since they're going to judge you regardless.
posted by shelleycat at 2:59 AM on March 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
Basically you will never win with a misogynist guy like that so fuck em, might as well say what you think since they're going to judge you regardless.
posted by shelleycat at 2:59 AM on March 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
The thing that seems to work best in situations like this that I have witnessed (I don't have kids but am the age where everyone else does and I am honorary or actual aunt to enough of them that I have been there at lots of awkward family moments) is the flag it and move on approach. This weirded me out at first because I am totally a scene maker and didn't get what was happening.
Basically, upset parent would declare "that's sexist" or "that's racist" or "don't speak to my daughter that way" or something similarly short, and then move on. Then later, either in a separate area from the rest of the family (like if a restaurant has a couch in the bathroom, or the car on the way home, or another room in the house) or after the event, depending on the age of the kid, the parent explains why that was a bad thing that was said and how they would like their kid to respond to it or understand it. I didn't realize this was happening at first but maybe because I am "that woman" I have been asked along to these explaining moments a few times and even been able to offer a different point of view that compliments the parent's, or just comfort.
I'm sorry you have to deal with this. Since you know that your in-laws have sexist attitudes, you can start right away (if you haven't already) helping your kids have the language and self esteem to respond to it. Because unfortunately it isn't going to be just the in-laws, so might as well help them identify and deflect sexism as they encounter it. That will be more effective and helpful than any tense moments at a family dinner.
posted by Mizu at 3:20 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Basically, upset parent would declare "that's sexist" or "that's racist" or "don't speak to my daughter that way" or something similarly short, and then move on. Then later, either in a separate area from the rest of the family (like if a restaurant has a couch in the bathroom, or the car on the way home, or another room in the house) or after the event, depending on the age of the kid, the parent explains why that was a bad thing that was said and how they would like their kid to respond to it or understand it. I didn't realize this was happening at first but maybe because I am "that woman" I have been asked along to these explaining moments a few times and even been able to offer a different point of view that compliments the parent's, or just comfort.
I'm sorry you have to deal with this. Since you know that your in-laws have sexist attitudes, you can start right away (if you haven't already) helping your kids have the language and self esteem to respond to it. Because unfortunately it isn't going to be just the in-laws, so might as well help them identify and deflect sexism as they encounter it. That will be more effective and helpful than any tense moments at a family dinner.
posted by Mizu at 3:20 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Would you say that to a little boy?" is delightfully succinct and versatile enough to use in response to almost anything.
Since your daughter is young, it's not a bad idea to talk to her after the fact, so she knows you're on her side and so the right message sticks. "Men sometimes tell women to smile because it makes them look pretty. It's not nice to treat girls differently from boys, and no one gets to tell you how to look or feel. Smile because you want to."
I think you reacted really well; it's hard to catch and react to that crap in the moment. And we (kids especially) need more of those women around.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:28 AM on March 30, 2016 [34 favorites]
Since your daughter is young, it's not a bad idea to talk to her after the fact, so she knows you're on her side and so the right message sticks. "Men sometimes tell women to smile because it makes them look pretty. It's not nice to treat girls differently from boys, and no one gets to tell you how to look or feel. Smile because you want to."
I think you reacted really well; it's hard to catch and react to that crap in the moment. And we (kids especially) need more of those women around.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:28 AM on March 30, 2016 [34 favorites]
I applaud you for being unwilling to let this go. Is your BIL your husband's brother? Did he have the same upbringing as your BIL? I ask because you mention your BIL's upbringing but not your husbands. If they had the same upbringing, is there a reason your husband manages not to be sexist, and can he also intervene in these situations? Like wolfster said, can the two of you discuss it and approach it as a team?
And even if you do have a non-sexist husband who is the brother of your BIL, I think it sucks that you have to do the emotional labour of being the one to initiate this conversation in the first place while while your husband sits by and lets people make sexist commands of your daughter.
posted by Enchanting Grasshopper at 4:04 AM on March 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
And even if you do have a non-sexist husband who is the brother of your BIL, I think it sucks that you have to do the emotional labour of being the one to initiate this conversation in the first place while while your husband sits by and lets people make sexist commands of your daughter.
posted by Enchanting Grasshopper at 4:04 AM on March 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
You know, I don't think it's your obligation to figure out a way to convey your thoughts to him in a "nice" way. Much like, if he'd dropped his drawers and taken a big stinky shit in the middle of the restaurant, you'd not be obligated to handle that while being pleasant and inoffensive.
Comments like that are the emotional equivalent to taking a big stinky shit in public: utterly unacceptable, disgusting, and not to be tolerated.
If you're nice and diplomatic about this, it will make it all the more likely he won't take it seriously. I would have shut it down firmly right then and there, scene be damned. At this point, I'd speak to him privately, a very succinct conversation where I do all the talking and explain how he is to act from now on if he wants to have any contact at all with his niece.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 4:26 AM on March 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Comments like that are the emotional equivalent to taking a big stinky shit in public: utterly unacceptable, disgusting, and not to be tolerated.
If you're nice and diplomatic about this, it will make it all the more likely he won't take it seriously. I would have shut it down firmly right then and there, scene be damned. At this point, I'd speak to him privately, a very succinct conversation where I do all the talking and explain how he is to act from now on if he wants to have any contact at all with his niece.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 4:26 AM on March 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'd be all, "Samantha, what do we say when some man says something stupid and patronizing?" When your daughter appears confused you can say, "We say 'Bullshit', because that's what it is. Your job is to be a person, not an ornament."
I'm 'that woman' AND an asshole. It's rather formidable actually.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:58 AM on March 30, 2016 [85 favorites]
I'm 'that woman' AND an asshole. It's rather formidable actually.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:58 AM on March 30, 2016 [85 favorites]
I'm not one to make a scene but I do speak out about things like this because it's a f~king pain going through life being told that you're supposed to be pretty. It's also really creepy to say this to an 8 year old. He should know that. I know he probably did mean he wanted her to "cheer up" (still weird) but if he pays attention to what he is actually doing (telling her she is supposed to be physically pleasing to a grown man), I think he'd be creeped out too.
The things men say to young girls matter. I'm not saying that a female opinion on this doesn't matter but if we live within a patriarchy then the male voices (the louder voices) need to be positive and not sexist. It's inappropriate and irresponsible for someone with that amount of power to say that to a young girl, so you did the right thing and you did it in front of the girls which is even better. He probably makes statements like this in front of his own daughters all the time so at least they can experience a different opinion. I would immediately try to expose her to male feminists and positive male role models because the worst thing about experiencing these attitudes as a kid was not having any men counteracting this view as those with differing opinions were either 'shut out' or silent.
"Nobody should have to smile if they don't feel like smiling. Why would you want someone to lie about how they're feeling?"
Yes but I would have said something along those lines directly to the girls: 'Please don't smile unless you feel like smiling'.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:45 AM on March 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
The things men say to young girls matter. I'm not saying that a female opinion on this doesn't matter but if we live within a patriarchy then the male voices (the louder voices) need to be positive and not sexist. It's inappropriate and irresponsible for someone with that amount of power to say that to a young girl, so you did the right thing and you did it in front of the girls which is even better. He probably makes statements like this in front of his own daughters all the time so at least they can experience a different opinion. I would immediately try to expose her to male feminists and positive male role models because the worst thing about experiencing these attitudes as a kid was not having any men counteracting this view as those with differing opinions were either 'shut out' or silent.
"Nobody should have to smile if they don't feel like smiling. Why would you want someone to lie about how they're feeling?"
Yes but I would have said something along those lines directly to the girls: 'Please don't smile unless you feel like smiling'.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:45 AM on March 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
You: "Actually, no, she doesn't need to smile. I think she's beautiful just the way she is, don't you?"
Him: "Well of course! I just wanted her to cheer up!"
You: "Telling her to smile isn't cheering her up, it's imposing another obligation on her. If you want to cheer her up, tell her a joke, tell her you love her, or do something else nice for her."
And maybe follow that up by saying directly to your daughter (and include his daughters in your field of vision), "Daughter, I'm sorry for making you a little uncomfortable, but it's really important to me that you understand that you don't have to smile just because someone else asks you to."
As far as the moment being past, no, I don't believe that it is. You can call your BIL and say, "Look, I just wanted to expand on my statement earlier. This is really important to me, and I think to you as well. You may not realize it, but when you ask a woman to smile, it actually doesn't benefit the woman. If you want to cheer someone up, you have to take some action to make it so."
As far as not wanting to make a scene, he's the one who initially disturbed the social contract by prioritizing his wants over your daughter's. That's not the type of person I'm worried about upsetting by being "that" family member. If he doesn't want to be around me because I express an opinion, that totally works for me, I've got lots of other things to do with my life besides be around shitty people. And if he's a decent guy, maybe he'll take what you say to heart, and his daughters will have more of an ally.
posted by disconnect at 5:49 AM on March 30, 2016 [20 favorites]
Him: "Well of course! I just wanted her to cheer up!"
You: "Telling her to smile isn't cheering her up, it's imposing another obligation on her. If you want to cheer her up, tell her a joke, tell her you love her, or do something else nice for her."
And maybe follow that up by saying directly to your daughter (and include his daughters in your field of vision), "Daughter, I'm sorry for making you a little uncomfortable, but it's really important to me that you understand that you don't have to smile just because someone else asks you to."
As far as the moment being past, no, I don't believe that it is. You can call your BIL and say, "Look, I just wanted to expand on my statement earlier. This is really important to me, and I think to you as well. You may not realize it, but when you ask a woman to smile, it actually doesn't benefit the woman. If you want to cheer someone up, you have to take some action to make it so."
As far as not wanting to make a scene, he's the one who initially disturbed the social contract by prioritizing his wants over your daughter's. That's not the type of person I'm worried about upsetting by being "that" family member. If he doesn't want to be around me because I express an opinion, that totally works for me, I've got lots of other things to do with my life besides be around shitty people. And if he's a decent guy, maybe he'll take what you say to heart, and his daughters will have more of an ally.
posted by disconnect at 5:49 AM on March 30, 2016 [20 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Sorry, but this isn't really the place for an extended discussion of why you think people should smile more or why this doesn't seem to be a problem to you. Also, generally, other folks: OP has asked for "some go-to phrases or short-sentence reasonings to have in my back pocket that don't escalate or make a scene or make my daughter feel unduly in the limelight in that moment." Let's try to keep ideas and suggestions in line with the request.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:32 AM on March 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 6:32 AM on March 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
I don't think you should address any comments to your daughter at the restaurant. Talk to her later, privately, absolutely. But keep it directed toward the adult in public.
And I've found that taking the generally-male attitude of "aggressive but really just joking" very useful. As in, this case, directly to brother-in-law: "You know, if you didn't say such dumb things you'd be a lot sexier." Delivered with large smile, and then change the subject.
Note: you will probably be identified as a bitch for acting this way, but do you care?
posted by kestralwing at 6:32 AM on March 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
And I've found that taking the generally-male attitude of "aggressive but really just joking" very useful. As in, this case, directly to brother-in-law: "You know, if you didn't say such dumb things you'd be a lot sexier." Delivered with large smile, and then change the subject.
Note: you will probably be identified as a bitch for acting this way, but do you care?
posted by kestralwing at 6:32 AM on March 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Ask him why he says it. "What is it with people telling girls to do xyz to look pretty?" It sounds like this is totally unconscious and, frankly, dumb behavior on his part and letting him know that it's part of a syndrome puts him on the spot less as to why he personally does it while still conveying it's a thing that gets harmful when girls hear it again and again. This is slightly above the level of a microaggression in my opinion and part of what's difficult with is it can be hard to call them out in the moment, since the person usually doesn't seem to consciously intend anything bad and doesn't realize how many times the average girl hears this sort of thing.
posted by BibiRose at 6:33 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 6:33 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
"You know, in many cultures, they believe that smiling all the time makes you look like an idiot."
(See this discussion)
Alternately, "don't tell her what to do."
posted by deanc at 6:51 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
(See this discussion)
Alternately, "don't tell her what to do."
posted by deanc at 6:51 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would shy away from saying, as a few have suggested, "she's beautiful the way she is" or "I think your face looks great no matter what." Stick with your original instinct: the question of whether she's visually appealing to those around her should not be the primary concern.
posted by babelfish at 7:19 AM on March 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by babelfish at 7:19 AM on March 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
I really like Metroid Baby's phrasing. I think you combine that with another tactic that's oft been suggested on the green - "Wow. [pregnant pause] Would you say that to a little boy?"
The key is to deliver the wow with an undertone of "I can't believe you just said something that asinine." I think from there your daughter will pick up that you're standing up for her, the doofus in the room should get the message at least a little, and (most importantly) your daughter doesn't have to crawl through a hole in the floor and die.
And it leaves you with openings to later discuss with child and/or adult in more detail as needed.
posted by telepanda at 7:56 AM on March 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
The key is to deliver the wow with an undertone of "I can't believe you just said something that asinine." I think from there your daughter will pick up that you're standing up for her, the doofus in the room should get the message at least a little, and (most importantly) your daughter doesn't have to crawl through a hole in the floor and die.
And it leaves you with openings to later discuss with child and/or adult in more detail as needed.
posted by telepanda at 7:56 AM on March 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
"Being pretty is not the goal, and even if it was, fake smiles are not pretty, anyway."
posted by gatorae at 8:00 AM on March 30, 2016
posted by gatorae at 8:00 AM on March 30, 2016
"If you want her to smile make her happy, we (glance at partner for support who should nod encouragingly at this point) would prefer you didn't make her think how she looked was more important than how she felt."
Talk to your partner to get them on board & present a united front around the in laws. If you want to stop it escalating into an argument, when they mumble out their "excuse", say you understand but you & partner would prefer that she learn x instead of y. Don't attack their beliefs, just say this is what you both have decided is right for your family. Then smile & say thanks as if they'd agreed & move on.
posted by wwax at 8:25 AM on March 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Talk to your partner to get them on board & present a united front around the in laws. If you want to stop it escalating into an argument, when they mumble out their "excuse", say you understand but you & partner would prefer that she learn x instead of y. Don't attack their beliefs, just say this is what you both have decided is right for your family. Then smile & say thanks as if they'd agreed & move on.
posted by wwax at 8:25 AM on March 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
This thread is already full of good advice but I want to say good for you for speaking up.
posted by werkzeuger at 9:07 AM on March 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by werkzeuger at 9:07 AM on March 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
> I think you reacted really well
I do too. You're getting some great suggestions here, but don't beat yourself up about having responded wrong in the moment—you did great, and your daughter is lucky to have you as her mom.
posted by languagehat at 9:09 AM on March 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
I do too. You're getting some great suggestions here, but don't beat yourself up about having responded wrong in the moment—you did great, and your daughter is lucky to have you as her mom.
posted by languagehat at 9:09 AM on March 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
I agree with the correcting the brother in law on the spot and there are some great examples above, but by just focusing solely on the brother in law's comment, you are reinforcing the sour-puss behavior of your daughter that started this.
So maybe finish the lesson with the reminder you included in original post, "It's one thing to not be a sour-puss at the restaurant which [you] definitely [were] being. But the reason not to be a sour-puss is because you're annoying everyone who is trying to have a nice meal. It's not because your face should be "pretty" for the benefit of those around them."
posted by cecic at 9:31 AM on March 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
So maybe finish the lesson with the reminder you included in original post, "It's one thing to not be a sour-puss at the restaurant which [you] definitely [were] being. But the reason not to be a sour-puss is because you're annoying everyone who is trying to have a nice meal. It's not because your face should be "pretty" for the benefit of those around them."
posted by cecic at 9:31 AM on March 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
"It's not her job to look pretty" to the uncle and then later have a talk with your daughter about how to handle remarks like that. You should stand up for her, teach her how to stand up for herself, and you can do it all without being an aggressive asshole.
Also, have a chat about having a pouty face during family dinners and some options like taking a break from the table and going for a walk or something, because it's no fun sitting with a pouty person in general.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 9:43 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, have a chat about having a pouty face during family dinners and some options like taking a break from the table and going for a walk or something, because it's no fun sitting with a pouty person in general.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 9:43 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was kind of taught to go slightly crazytown on this stuff, so YMMV. I usually default to, "If you're concerned about someone looking happy, please feel free to smile for yourself."
"What she does with her face is only her concern, not yours."
Or, just to your daughter: "You are a person, not a decoration. You may do with your face as you please."
And if she is being a sour-puss then she need to learn to regulate her emotions, BUT NOT BECAUSE IT'S A PROBLEM FOR OTHER PEOPLE. She needs to learn to regulate her emotions so that she can be in control of herself and her experience. So if she is grumpy, she needs to learn to say, I'm grumpy, I'd like to be excused to go blow off some steam. She does NOT need to learn to mask her emotions to make other people comfortable.
posted by Medieval Maven at 10:32 AM on March 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
"What she does with her face is only her concern, not yours."
Or, just to your daughter: "You are a person, not a decoration. You may do with your face as you please."
And if she is being a sour-puss then she need to learn to regulate her emotions, BUT NOT BECAUSE IT'S A PROBLEM FOR OTHER PEOPLE. She needs to learn to regulate her emotions so that she can be in control of herself and her experience. So if she is grumpy, she needs to learn to say, I'm grumpy, I'd like to be excused to go blow off some steam. She does NOT need to learn to mask her emotions to make other people comfortable.
posted by Medieval Maven at 10:32 AM on March 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
Nthing to address the child with "pfft, no-one has to smile if they don't feel like it. Pretty has nothing to do with it."
As much as I would want to say "she's not here to decorate your world" (which is what I say to people who tell ME to smile on the street), I have to say that there is perhaps nothing more embarrassing and frustrating than grownups talking about you in the third person when you're right there. Even now, I can remember exactly how it used to twist me up inside, no matter what the subject was.
posted by desuetude at 10:59 AM on March 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
As much as I would want to say "she's not here to decorate your world" (which is what I say to people who tell ME to smile on the street), I have to say that there is perhaps nothing more embarrassing and frustrating than grownups talking about you in the third person when you're right there. Even now, I can remember exactly how it used to twist me up inside, no matter what the subject was.
posted by desuetude at 10:59 AM on March 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
When I was quite young, probably around the age of your daughter, my mother did a similar thing. She called out a family member who had made a mildly racist remark in a large group of family members and it went about the way you describe your comment going. There was a period of awkward conversation and then everyone moved on. Even at that age, it made a big impression on me. Years and years later, I brought up this moment in a conversation on race and fairness to my mom and she was stunned that I remembered it. She said that she later had regrets about seeming shrill and doubts that she was doing the right thing (because it was really sort of subtle). However, the fact that I not only remembered it, but saw it as an important thing in the way I formed my adult opinions on the subject convinced her 20 years later that not only was she right to call out that BS, but that she probably should have spoke up more often in those borderline cases.
So what I say to you is that if the most important thing to you is that you teach your daughter that this kind of crap is unacceptable and that it is perfectly fine for her to stand up for what is right, then you should absolutely be that woman. I'm proud that my wife is that woman and I bet your daughter will be proud that you are that woman too.
posted by Lame_username at 11:36 AM on March 30, 2016 [40 favorites]
So what I say to you is that if the most important thing to you is that you teach your daughter that this kind of crap is unacceptable and that it is perfectly fine for her to stand up for what is right, then you should absolutely be that woman. I'm proud that my wife is that woman and I bet your daughter will be proud that you are that woman too.
posted by Lame_username at 11:36 AM on March 30, 2016 [40 favorites]
I recently dealt with a similarly shitty sexist remark by saying "Wow, that is a really interesting choice of words!" with the kind of edgy tone that you might use to convey "I cannot believe you just said that out loud!" It worked pretty well, in that the guy who made the remark backpedaled fairly quickly and I was able to signal firmly that I was not having any of that while rapidly changing the subject. It won't work equally well in all situations, but as a handy phrase to keep in your back pocket when dealing with these kinds of crappy aggressions, it might suit.
posted by KathrynT at 4:43 PM on March 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 4:43 PM on March 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Co-signing KathrynT. I recently was on the receiving end of a reallllly questionable misogynist joke involving current politics, and I simply responded "Wow, that's really not funny" and immediately moved on to what I was working on. I think this is replicable in many social situations ("Wow, I completely disagree"/change subject). Said in a "cut that shit out" tone, I think it sends a pretty clear shutdown signal that a) you don't want to engage with any "buuuuuuuuuut I didn't mean it like thaaaat" and b) that this is not something to be trifled with again.
Note: you probably will get a reputation among insecure dudes as being someone who "can't take a joke" or a "bitchy feminist" but them's the breaks, and other women within earshot will usually be very glad that you're taking one for the team.
posted by mostly vowels at 8:42 PM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Note: you probably will get a reputation among insecure dudes as being someone who "can't take a joke" or a "bitchy feminist" but them's the breaks, and other women within earshot will usually be very glad that you're taking one for the team.
posted by mostly vowels at 8:42 PM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have a weird in-law type who occasionally makes inappropriate comments to/about my kids. The comments are so strange and off-base that they catch me off guard every time, and right now I need to keep the peace with this person, so the default response is just a head shake and a "we don't do that/ say things like that."
But in your case, since there's a predictable sexism theme, I really like the first suggestion someone had upthread of being ready with "if you wouldn't say it to a boy there's no reason to say it to a girl." It's not mean or scene-making, it's clear, it isn't "about" your kid specifically, and you can use it later when you talk to your girl about it in more detail.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:30 AM on March 31, 2016
But in your case, since there's a predictable sexism theme, I really like the first suggestion someone had upthread of being ready with "if you wouldn't say it to a boy there's no reason to say it to a girl." It's not mean or scene-making, it's clear, it isn't "about" your kid specifically, and you can use it later when you talk to your girl about it in more detail.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:30 AM on March 31, 2016
: "How can I combat toss-off sexist comments without creating a scene?"
I know this isn't technically answering the question, but...
...go ahead and feel free to create a scene like this in any location where I'm also there, so I can back you up immediately and loudly. You are a badass and an excellent mother.
You have received a lot of excellent advice in this thread, and I endorse everyone who's given you actual techniques and tactics to handle this in the future. I just wanted to throw in an Internet High Five for you, because you stuck your neck out and you did it and I hope you keep doing it because this is how things change. Well done.
Sincerely, a person who thinks you did exactly the right thing and thinks you should keep doing it
posted by scrump at 12:45 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I know this isn't technically answering the question, but...
...go ahead and feel free to create a scene like this in any location where I'm also there, so I can back you up immediately and loudly. You are a badass and an excellent mother.
You have received a lot of excellent advice in this thread, and I endorse everyone who's given you actual techniques and tactics to handle this in the future. I just wanted to throw in an Internet High Five for you, because you stuck your neck out and you did it and I hope you keep doing it because this is how things change. Well done.
Sincerely, a person who thinks you did exactly the right thing and thinks you should keep doing it
posted by scrump at 12:45 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Make a scene. I'm a dad and I make scenes if someone aggressively genders my daughter. An aunt calls her bossy? I'm gonna make a damn scene. I'm not going to yell in front of my daughter, I'm not going to curse but I am going to describe politely and vividly why they can't say those things to her.
posted by French Fry at 9:54 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by French Fry at 9:54 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think the situation is a bit more complex than some here are treating it, given that the original poster identified that her daughter was being a "sourpuss" at the table, and that she did not think this behavior was appropriate. She's trying to teach how to be with other people in a social situation. So of course she does not want to make a scene, she wants to keep things as pleasant as possible for all concerned, which is difficult since there is now a bit of conflict. I think the salient question is "what would you say to a little boy who was being a grump at the table?" At home, I'd send him somewhere boring until he felt capable of joining us and yes, smiling. In a restaurant, however, the choices are more limited. I think it might have been appropriate to pull the girl aside and explain that thing about trying to be pleasant for the benefit of everyone at the table, because we know how awful it is when mom or dad is a grump and people are trying to have fun. Or, once BIL had spoken, to say, well, it's not about being pretty, even boys and men try to be pleasant at family gatherings, and we're all trying so we'd like you to, as well.
posted by vbock at 6:50 AM on April 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by vbock at 6:50 AM on April 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've had a similar (and probably similarly gendered) experience with other people around my son, where he has been told not to cry or to stop crying. I always counter it immediately with "if you're feeling sad, it's okay. It can help you feel better".
I honestly don't even bother worrying about the feelings of the person who told my son to stop crying. Maybe that's just my privilege as a man? In any case, my child's feelings are no one else's business (they're barely my own business apart from comforting or mirroring how he's feeling and respond to it, except to the extent where his feelings might, say, make it difficult or impossible to get his shoes on).
Some people are genuinely upset when they see children (especially girls) who are sad. It makes them uncomfortable. Sometimes it is good to own up to that and just be in that discomfort, but that's a lot to ask of people you're not particularly close to.
Sometimes people just feel like they need to be able to do something. So instead of telling them "don't do this" give them something else to do:
posted by Deathalicious at 7:42 AM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I honestly don't even bother worrying about the feelings of the person who told my son to stop crying. Maybe that's just my privilege as a man? In any case, my child's feelings are no one else's business (they're barely my own business apart from comforting or mirroring how he's feeling and respond to it, except to the extent where his feelings might, say, make it difficult or impossible to get his shoes on).
Some people are genuinely upset when they see children (especially girls) who are sad. It makes them uncomfortable. Sometimes it is good to own up to that and just be in that discomfort, but that's a lot to ask of people you're not particularly close to.
Sometimes people just feel like they need to be able to do something. So instead of telling them "don't do this" give them something else to do:
- "Look, if you see a child — male or female — who seems sad, don't tell them to smile. Instead, do something or say something funny to try to make them laugh. If they laugh, great. If they don't, they're probably not going to smile no matter what, so just let them be." or
- If you're going to tell someone to smile, don't tell them to smile because it will make them look prettier. Tell them to smile because when they smile the muscle movements actually sends a signal to the brain that makes you feel happier. So if you are just feeling sad and would like to feel a bit better, just smile and it will make you feel better."
posted by Deathalicious at 7:42 AM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Jubey at 11:10 PM on March 29, 2016 [257 favorites]