Should she stay or should she go?
January 18, 2011 9:22 AM Subscribe
Should the fiance stay or should she go? She has a chance to move out, no strings attached, no penalties, no hard feelings... but should I ask her to, make her, or something else?
Anonymous b/c friends on MeFi are friends in real life.
Me: 28 years old, living abroad for almost 3 years in the same country.
Her: 27 years old, living with me for over a year.
We: got engaged last year after meeting abroad. Looking to get married in our home country late summer this year.
The place I work for provides an apartment - a small apartment, mind you, but it's been good enough so far. She has an option to take a new job - and a place of her own - an 8-10 minute walk away.
We've been living together since we got engaged, and I need a break. Not really from her (I don't think), but from living together. From the cat she got without asking. From her having twice as much stuff as me. From having zero space to stretch out. From her having hour-long conversation at full-voice on Skype with her mom.
I (think I) know what some of you will ask - 'is this a step toward breaking up?'. I don't know... and perhaps that's part of the problem. We have plenty in common - and plenty that's different. Perhaps it's just that I feel trapped - and her getting a place of her own might give for a bit of breathing room.
Thoughts, data points, and anecdotes welcome.
Throwaway e-mail: helpmeimengaged@gmail.com
Anonymous b/c friends on MeFi are friends in real life.
Me: 28 years old, living abroad for almost 3 years in the same country.
Her: 27 years old, living with me for over a year.
We: got engaged last year after meeting abroad. Looking to get married in our home country late summer this year.
The place I work for provides an apartment - a small apartment, mind you, but it's been good enough so far. She has an option to take a new job - and a place of her own - an 8-10 minute walk away.
We've been living together since we got engaged, and I need a break. Not really from her (I don't think), but from living together. From the cat she got without asking. From her having twice as much stuff as me. From having zero space to stretch out. From her having hour-long conversation at full-voice on Skype with her mom.
I (think I) know what some of you will ask - 'is this a step toward breaking up?'. I don't know... and perhaps that's part of the problem. We have plenty in common - and plenty that's different. Perhaps it's just that I feel trapped - and her getting a place of her own might give for a bit of breathing room.
Thoughts, data points, and anecdotes welcome.
Throwaway e-mail: helpmeimengaged@gmail.com
Yikes. I can't see why you'd fart around with "a break." Man up, end the relationship. If you are irritated at a chat with Mom you are irritated with her, and this really shouldn't progress towards marriage. The cat thing isn't good but the rest of this is pretty petty. You don't like her enough to live with her, never mind marry her. Why are you engaged?
posted by kmennie at 9:27 AM on January 18, 2011 [17 favorites]
posted by kmennie at 9:27 AM on January 18, 2011 [17 favorites]
If she's moving out, you aren't getting married.
posted by empath at 9:29 AM on January 18, 2011 [11 favorites]
posted by empath at 9:29 AM on January 18, 2011 [11 favorites]
Not really from her? But you just listed five things that are all her. Yeah, it might be that you don't have enough living space, but you sound like you just can't deal with part of the package that comes with her. And people DO. NOT. CHANGE. just because of the ring on their finger.
posted by Melismata at 9:29 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 9:29 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sounds to me like you want out and you're using these bits as fuel to that fire.
The cat situation should have been discussed. Does she need your "permission" - probably if it's "your place" but if she considers it a shared space and had a reasonable assumption that you like animals or were open to it.... but still, it should have been discussed prior and certainly addressed after.
Stuff/Sace - people vary in how much they feel they need in order to be ok. Me? I'm spartan to the point where it freaks people out a bit. Most other people have too much stuff for me to deal with. That's something that should have been discussed a long time ago if it bothers you.
Skype calls? Um, do you want her to whisper? It's still a phone call, what else is she supposed to do? If you're around she could use a headset. Have you asked her to?
Bottom line... all of those things should be discussed. You should buck up and say something to her about feeling a little pinched and that you would like to address these things that you think are making you feel that way. Every one of those issues is imminently "solvable" with a variety of options. If nothing changes then I think the issue is really that you want out of the relationship, not that you want her out of the apartment. Well, that would happen too... but you know what I mean.
posted by FlamingBore at 9:31 AM on January 18, 2011
The cat situation should have been discussed. Does she need your "permission" - probably if it's "your place" but if she considers it a shared space and had a reasonable assumption that you like animals or were open to it.... but still, it should have been discussed prior and certainly addressed after.
Stuff/Sace - people vary in how much they feel they need in order to be ok. Me? I'm spartan to the point where it freaks people out a bit. Most other people have too much stuff for me to deal with. That's something that should have been discussed a long time ago if it bothers you.
Skype calls? Um, do you want her to whisper? It's still a phone call, what else is she supposed to do? If you're around she could use a headset. Have you asked her to?
Bottom line... all of those things should be discussed. You should buck up and say something to her about feeling a little pinched and that you would like to address these things that you think are making you feel that way. Every one of those issues is imminently "solvable" with a variety of options. If nothing changes then I think the issue is really that you want out of the relationship, not that you want her out of the apartment. Well, that would happen too... but you know what I mean.
posted by FlamingBore at 9:31 AM on January 18, 2011
And, to quote Ann Landers, people are on their best behavior before marriage.
posted by Melismata at 9:31 AM on January 18, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 9:31 AM on January 18, 2011 [6 favorites]
Nowhere in this do I get the feeling you have any desire to be married to her. Your reasons for wanting her to move out are things that wouldn't change at all if you got married to her.
posted by Zophi at 9:31 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Zophi at 9:31 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
Yeah, seconding kmennie that this doesn't look good for your relationship. There's nothing in your post that indicates that your feelings are due to special circumstances that will change magically once you're married. If it's unbearably annoying to live with her now, it will be unbearably annoying to live with her in the future. Having her move out may relieve the pressure for now, but it also remove a really important ongoing source of information about your mutual long-term compatibility.
posted by Bardolph at 9:32 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Bardolph at 9:32 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you get married, are you going to live together? Ever? She'll still have stuff and a cat and a mother. If you can't work out how to occupy the same space, it's just not a good idea to get married.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:33 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:33 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
Single data point:
Last year, because of job stuff and money stuff, my boyfriend had to live 1400 miles/6 states away for over 6 months. It was the best thing that happened to our relationship since we met. A year later, we've just moved into the first apartment that is "ours" (rather than him moving in with me), it's much bigger, and we've never been happier.
This can be done, and honestly, it sounds like it needs to be done. And now that it's on the table, you will resent it if you, at least, don't talk it out. For the sake of both of you, please do that at the very least.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:35 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
Last year, because of job stuff and money stuff, my boyfriend had to live 1400 miles/6 states away for over 6 months. It was the best thing that happened to our relationship since we met. A year later, we've just moved into the first apartment that is "ours" (rather than him moving in with me), it's much bigger, and we've never been happier.
This can be done, and honestly, it sounds like it needs to be done. And now that it's on the table, you will resent it if you, at least, don't talk it out. For the sake of both of you, please do that at the very least.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:35 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
I would say that in a standard relationship you may get one of these "breaks" and that is strictly to find out if you miss having her in your life more than having to deal with the minor inconveniences you have listed. How to negotiate that is a minefield and you do run serious risk of tanking the relationship entirely.
In reality, given your ambiguousness you well might have to come to terms that a significant part of you wants tot end the relationship, and there is no real safe way to find this out.
posted by edgeways at 9:36 AM on January 18, 2011
In reality, given your ambiguousness you well might have to come to terms that a significant part of you wants tot end the relationship, and there is no real safe way to find this out.
posted by edgeways at 9:36 AM on January 18, 2011
'is this a step toward breaking up?'. I don't know... and perhaps that's part of the problem.
Yeah, you need to know this before you initiate the conversation, because she's definitely going to ask you.
posted by hermitosis at 9:37 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yeah, you need to know this before you initiate the conversation, because she's definitely going to ask you.
posted by hermitosis at 9:37 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
Do you love her? No where in that paragraph do you say that or mention the world 'love' at all.
posted by ejazen at 9:40 AM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by ejazen at 9:40 AM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Do ask her to move out. Be prepared for her to ditch you, I would.
posted by francesca too at 9:41 AM on January 18, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by francesca too at 9:41 AM on January 18, 2011 [8 favorites]
I would be honest with her and say that the apartment is too small for two people and that it's driving you crazy. Tell her you wish she hadn't gotten the cat without talking with you first, the small apartment has too much stuff and you don't like being a captive audience to her phone calls.
Ask her what she thinks the two of you should do. If you can't be honest with her, you shouldn't marry her. I also think asking her move out without hearing her opinion is bad move, a breakup move. Getting a larger apartment may be an option but if your current place is free, does that make economic sense? I would emphasize to her at this point that you love her but that the current living situation isn't working.
One question, what's the plan for after the marriage? Are you returning to the foreign country and what will the living arrangements be then? If you're paying wedding expenses, it might make sense to keep your free apartment. You didn't mention whether she would be paying rent if she took the other place. However, a new, larger apartment will need to found at some point.
posted by shoesietart at 9:45 AM on January 18, 2011 [10 favorites]
Ask her what she thinks the two of you should do. If you can't be honest with her, you shouldn't marry her. I also think asking her move out without hearing her opinion is bad move, a breakup move. Getting a larger apartment may be an option but if your current place is free, does that make economic sense? I would emphasize to her at this point that you love her but that the current living situation isn't working.
One question, what's the plan for after the marriage? Are you returning to the foreign country and what will the living arrangements be then? If you're paying wedding expenses, it might make sense to keep your free apartment. You didn't mention whether she would be paying rent if she took the other place. However, a new, larger apartment will need to found at some point.
posted by shoesietart at 9:45 AM on January 18, 2011 [10 favorites]
It's interesting that you see her moving out as the solution. If this is really about having space to stretch out, space to store her stuff out of your way, and space for one of you to relax while the other is on Skype, then the solution is a bigger apartment. That your inclination is to go back to living separately suggests to me that this is about more than just tackling logistical issues of clutter and noise in a small, shared apartment. This will be completely transparent to your fiancee, so you need to sort yourself out before you raise the subject.
The cat thing strikes me as very odd as well--did you really not work together to find a solution when she brought home the cat? A decision to return the cat and get a pet when you have a bigger space? A decision to keep the cat but your fiancee understands that choosing the cat without you was not cool? Something else the two of you came up with after discussing the situation?
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:47 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
The cat thing strikes me as very odd as well--did you really not work together to find a solution when she brought home the cat? A decision to return the cat and get a pet when you have a bigger space? A decision to keep the cat but your fiancee understands that choosing the cat without you was not cool? Something else the two of you came up with after discussing the situation?
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:47 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
Is this your first cohabitation experience? If not, call it quits unless you're both cool with adjoining-but-separate apartments. If you're sick of her after a year, you'll be crawling up the wall in a decade. Living together doesn't get easier with time.
posted by pjaust at 9:49 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by pjaust at 9:49 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
I don't understand why you would continue to consider getting married (a few months from now!) to someone you don't want to live with.
You may very well feel trapped, and her moving out would certainly give you breathing room. But how exactly would you feel any less trapped if you ever lived together again in the future? If the things that are issues for you now are within the realm of resolvable, they can be worked out while you're under the same roof.
Think of it like a new pair of boots: there's a breaking in period where they don't quite fit right and they rub in places. If your new boots are rubbing you raw, you can be patient while your boots adjust to your feet (and your feet adjust to your boots by building up calluses in the right places). Or you may decide that the boots are the wrong size or shape or just are not well suited to your feet. Regardless, if you put them in the closet for 6 months, when you pull them out again you'll be right back where you started.
posted by drlith at 9:50 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
You may very well feel trapped, and her moving out would certainly give you breathing room. But how exactly would you feel any less trapped if you ever lived together again in the future? If the things that are issues for you now are within the realm of resolvable, they can be worked out while you're under the same roof.
Think of it like a new pair of boots: there's a breaking in period where they don't quite fit right and they rub in places. If your new boots are rubbing you raw, you can be patient while your boots adjust to your feet (and your feet adjust to your boots by building up calluses in the right places). Or you may decide that the boots are the wrong size or shape or just are not well suited to your feet. Regardless, if you put them in the closet for 6 months, when you pull them out again you'll be right back where you started.
posted by drlith at 9:50 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
I don't know, it sounds to me more like you're feeling your apartment is too small for the both of you; are you an introvert? Are you not getting enough alone time of your own? An introvert in a very small apartment with someone else can go crazy, even if the other person is dearly loved.
Would the two of you have a chance to get a larger place together in the future, or are you going to be cramped long-term?* It really sounds to me like you'd be happier with your own space for a while, but it doesn't sound like you *necessarily* want an end to the relationship.
* Obviously as an anonymous poster you're not likely to answer me here, just something to consider.
posted by galadriel at 9:50 AM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Would the two of you have a chance to get a larger place together in the future, or are you going to be cramped long-term?
posted by galadriel at 9:50 AM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
You're thinking about having her move out, distancing yourself from your fiance, because she has more "stuff" than you and she has loud conversations with her mom?
What? No. If you want to marry her and live with her (the latter goes along with the former, right?), you have to accept everything about her. Her "stuff" is part of her life. I'll bet she could explain why specific things she owns are very important to her; she wouldn't dismiss it as a bunch of "stuff" that just takes up space. Her conversations with her mom are clearly important to her.
You seem like you're focusing on how annoyed you are with a bunch of little things, but you haven't fully thought this through.
(The cat could be a big issue if she truly imposed this on you without consulting you at all, but you don't give any details on this and you just threw it in there with a bunch of other things, so I assume it's not a big issue for you.)
posted by John Cohen at 9:51 AM on January 18, 2011
What? No. If you want to marry her and live with her (the latter goes along with the former, right?), you have to accept everything about her. Her "stuff" is part of her life. I'll bet she could explain why specific things she owns are very important to her; she wouldn't dismiss it as a bunch of "stuff" that just takes up space. Her conversations with her mom are clearly important to her.
You seem like you're focusing on how annoyed you are with a bunch of little things, but you haven't fully thought this through.
(The cat could be a big issue if she truly imposed this on you without consulting you at all, but you don't give any details on this and you just threw it in there with a bunch of other things, so I assume it's not a big issue for you.)
posted by John Cohen at 9:51 AM on January 18, 2011
So... You can't tell her all the stuff is driving you crazy, decide what to keep, and put the rest in a storage closet? You can't ask her to use a headset for skype, or go for a walk? You can't tell her the cat really pissed you off so she can apologize? You can't talk about how to make your living situation better, and instead the best solution is to bail?
You aren't willing to do the everyday, ongoing, sometimes maddening, always rewarding, human business of making a relationship work. Instead you're walking out. If i was your fiancé I'd be heartbroken. This is a break up. At least treat her with respect and make it a clean one.
posted by nerdfish at 9:54 AM on January 18, 2011 [31 favorites]
You aren't willing to do the everyday, ongoing, sometimes maddening, always rewarding, human business of making a relationship work. Instead you're walking out. If i was your fiancé I'd be heartbroken. This is a break up. At least treat her with respect and make it a clean one.
posted by nerdfish at 9:54 AM on January 18, 2011 [31 favorites]
Would you feel differently if you lived in a bigger apartment, or would other issues move in to take the place of the issues resolved by having more space?
If it's the latter, you can and should ask her to move out. You can tell her you just want some space/time, but be prepared for the very real possibility that she'll see it as a step back in your relationship and break up. I would, in this situation.
FWIW, you don't seem to this impartial observer like you love her or want to marry her.
posted by superfluousm at 9:54 AM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
If it's the latter, you can and should ask her to move out. You can tell her you just want some space/time, but be prepared for the very real possibility that she'll see it as a step back in your relationship and break up. I would, in this situation.
FWIW, you don't seem to this impartial observer like you love her or want to marry her.
posted by superfluousm at 9:54 AM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you can't work out how to occupy the same space, it's just not a good idea to get married.
Quoted for truth.
posted by amro at 9:55 AM on January 18, 2011
Quoted for truth.
posted by amro at 9:55 AM on January 18, 2011
I (think I) know what some of you will ask - 'is this a step toward breaking up?'. I don't know... and perhaps that's part of the problem. We have plenty in common - and plenty that's different. Perhaps it's just that I feel trapped - and her getting a place of her own might give for a bit of breathing room.
Her moving out may or may not help the situation in the short term, but the main thing I get from your question is that you do not seem at all ready to get married to this person in less than a year. If you are not sure if you are sick of her or just sick of living with her, why would you make such a huge commitment? Marriage will inevitably involve a lot more difficult things than worrying about Skype call volume. It sounds to me like this moving out thing is just a symptom of a larger overall problem of your ambivalence to the relationship, and you definitely need to discuss that with her before you get married regardless of what happens with your living situation.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:57 AM on January 18, 2011
Her moving out may or may not help the situation in the short term, but the main thing I get from your question is that you do not seem at all ready to get married to this person in less than a year. If you are not sure if you are sick of her or just sick of living with her, why would you make such a huge commitment? Marriage will inevitably involve a lot more difficult things than worrying about Skype call volume. It sounds to me like this moving out thing is just a symptom of a larger overall problem of your ambivalence to the relationship, and you definitely need to discuss that with her before you get married regardless of what happens with your living situation.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:57 AM on January 18, 2011
You don't seem to like her. Not really unusual. Lots of people find themselves with people that they love (or lust) but don't necessarily like. But why would you want to take the relationship to the next level? If you want to see how you'll do living separately for a while to put it in perspective, do it, but it sounds like you'd both be better off separately.
posted by Happydaz at 9:57 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Happydaz at 9:57 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think the first step is not drastic: the first step is to have a calm, understanding discussion with her about rules for living together. You need to have a frank-but-caring talk about things that are bothering you. It doesn't sound like you've actually discussed these issues. She needs to know that you were surprised by the cat, and maybe she should discuss changes like that with you - not that she needs your permission, but you two need to agree on using your shared space. Same for getting lots of stuff - it's shared space, you two need to agree. And she needs to know that her conversations are bothersome. You have to be tolerant of discussions with her mother that last any amount of time, but she should be considerate of which room she's taking the call in and whether she can keep the sound down.
This might not 100% fix the issues - you may still feel cramped in the apartment. But if you two can make adjustments for each other that make the apartment situation better, then that's a good indication that if you have a larger place (or two places) then things will actually be better.
If you can't navigate these simple compromises, yeah, you're doomed. These are small, annoying issues, not life-altering problems. They won't 100% go away when you have a larger place (or two places). And if you can't agree on pets or on not pissing each other off with phone calls (and not being pissed off by phone calls), then you won't make it through a real rough patch.
posted by Tehhund at 10:06 AM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
This might not 100% fix the issues - you may still feel cramped in the apartment. But if you two can make adjustments for each other that make the apartment situation better, then that's a good indication that if you have a larger place (or two places) then things will actually be better.
If you can't navigate these simple compromises, yeah, you're doomed. These are small, annoying issues, not life-altering problems. They won't 100% go away when you have a larger place (or two places). And if you can't agree on pets or on not pissing each other off with phone calls (and not being pissed off by phone calls), then you won't make it through a real rough patch.
posted by Tehhund at 10:06 AM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Several of these "minor inconveniences" sound a lot like the shoulda-been-red-flags in my friends' divorce. Marriage isn't just about love -- it's about living together. You do not seem to feel that she is respectful of your space and boundaries, and that sense of respect doesn't magically appear.
If you love her and cannot imagine living the rest of your life without her, you and she need to work proactively together to develop your communication such that you both feel respected and comfortable in your home. You also need to consider that, if you can't build that sense of respect and comfort before marriage, it ain't gonna happen after marriage.
Taking a break from living together may solve the proximate problem -- she's driving you crazy -- but it doesn't solve the underlying problem, that you have not yet developed working strategies for resolving conflict.
You may find that the fundamental issues are practical and have practical solutions, once you are both listening and feel listened to. But those practical solutions have to be found in an atmosphere of mutual and loving respect, and that has not come across in your post, and its absence is worrying.
posted by endless_forms at 10:12 AM on January 18, 2011
If you love her and cannot imagine living the rest of your life without her, you and she need to work proactively together to develop your communication such that you both feel respected and comfortable in your home. You also need to consider that, if you can't build that sense of respect and comfort before marriage, it ain't gonna happen after marriage.
Taking a break from living together may solve the proximate problem -- she's driving you crazy -- but it doesn't solve the underlying problem, that you have not yet developed working strategies for resolving conflict.
You may find that the fundamental issues are practical and have practical solutions, once you are both listening and feel listened to. But those practical solutions have to be found in an atmosphere of mutual and loving respect, and that has not come across in your post, and its absence is worrying.
posted by endless_forms at 10:12 AM on January 18, 2011
I can understand wanting to take a break from living together in the situation you describe. As much as I love my partner it would drive me crazy if we didn't have enough space so that he wasn't in my face all the time. I need time alone, peace and quiet to concentrate, and my own space. With my partner, if I'm on the phone he goes upstairs and practices his trumpet, for example.
So I can see how, having been driven crazy for so long, you can't tell whether it's her or the situation anymore, and you need to become non-crazy enough to be able to think this through.
You definitely need to tell her how you feel. It's not going to be an easy conversation, but it's one you desperately need to have. You can't marry her without being sure, and you can't be sure the way you're living now.
posted by hazyjane at 10:14 AM on January 18, 2011
So I can see how, having been driven crazy for so long, you can't tell whether it's her or the situation anymore, and you need to become non-crazy enough to be able to think this through.
You definitely need to tell her how you feel. It's not going to be an easy conversation, but it's one you desperately need to have. You can't marry her without being sure, and you can't be sure the way you're living now.
posted by hazyjane at 10:14 AM on January 18, 2011
I need a break. Not really from her (I don't think)
I (think I) know what some of you will ask - 'is this a step toward breaking up?'. I don't know... and perhaps that's part of the problem.
Yeah, that's your problem. Your question is really "Do I want to break up or not?" And if you try to hide behind the question of "Should I ask her to move out?" it's a smokescreen that becomes all about "am I a bad guy" "I know I'm not a bad guy" blah blah blah meanwhile no one answers the real question, which only you can answer. (I personally have a policy of "If it's too hard to decide that the answer is "yes", or if the answer is "I don't know" for a long time, then that defaults to "no" automatically without further argument.)
So yes, for starters, don't be that guy who's an ambivalent cowardly dumper and lets fate or the girl decide the hard stuff for you.
It will hurt worse in the short term but will save you a lot of time and misery if you can figure out what you want, exactly, not contingent on "waiting and seeing" or "experimenting" with getting her to change her behavior. And by what you want, I of course don't mean that she moves out but only comes over when you want and still sleeps with you when you want and meanwhile you do whatever. (Of course you want that. Everyone wants that.) I mean it's a package deal with binary options, yes or no, and you have to do the hard work of making a decision yourself. And these are really hard decisions! Deciding to get married or break up is a doozy! Loneliness, or no privacy? Having friendship but having to lie to get it, or being honest but miserable? Believe me, I know it's not easy! Novels are written about this stuff! This is what it is to be human, making choices like that. Abdicating responsibility for, or trying to delay making those decisions is highly likely to create a lot more misery for everyone.
posted by Nixy at 10:20 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
I (think I) know what some of you will ask - 'is this a step toward breaking up?'. I don't know... and perhaps that's part of the problem.
Yeah, that's your problem. Your question is really "Do I want to break up or not?" And if you try to hide behind the question of "Should I ask her to move out?" it's a smokescreen that becomes all about "am I a bad guy" "I know I'm not a bad guy" blah blah blah meanwhile no one answers the real question, which only you can answer. (I personally have a policy of "If it's too hard to decide that the answer is "yes", or if the answer is "I don't know" for a long time, then that defaults to "no" automatically without further argument.)
So yes, for starters, don't be that guy who's an ambivalent cowardly dumper and lets fate or the girl decide the hard stuff for you.
It will hurt worse in the short term but will save you a lot of time and misery if you can figure out what you want, exactly, not contingent on "waiting and seeing" or "experimenting" with getting her to change her behavior. And by what you want, I of course don't mean that she moves out but only comes over when you want and still sleeps with you when you want and meanwhile you do whatever. (Of course you want that. Everyone wants that.) I mean it's a package deal with binary options, yes or no, and you have to do the hard work of making a decision yourself. And these are really hard decisions! Deciding to get married or break up is a doozy! Loneliness, or no privacy? Having friendship but having to lie to get it, or being honest but miserable? Believe me, I know it's not easy! Novels are written about this stuff! This is what it is to be human, making choices like that. Abdicating responsibility for, or trying to delay making those decisions is highly likely to create a lot more misery for everyone.
posted by Nixy at 10:20 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
We've been living together since we got engaged, and I need a break. Not really from her (I don't think), but from living together. From the cat she got without asking. From her having twice as much stuff as me. From having zero space to stretch out. From her having hour-long conversation at full-voice on Skype with her mom.
Why are you planning on marrying this woman, again? It doesn't sound like you like her very much. And these are all things that are going to be a factor when you are married, unless you plan never to live together. She's going to own things, and talk to people who aren't you, and if she's the type to adopt a pet impulsively that probably means she's got an impulsive streak in general that isn't going to just go away. Aside from the cat, they're all very petty things that, if they're causing you to think about breaking up, probably mean you two aren't marriage material.
In light of all this, I think that if you go through with asking her to move out, you should do the honorable thing and break up with her.
posted by Sara C. at 11:00 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
Why are you planning on marrying this woman, again? It doesn't sound like you like her very much. And these are all things that are going to be a factor when you are married, unless you plan never to live together. She's going to own things, and talk to people who aren't you, and if she's the type to adopt a pet impulsively that probably means she's got an impulsive streak in general that isn't going to just go away. Aside from the cat, they're all very petty things that, if they're causing you to think about breaking up, probably mean you two aren't marriage material.
In light of all this, I think that if you go through with asking her to move out, you should do the honorable thing and break up with her.
posted by Sara C. at 11:00 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
Out of curiosity, is she an only child and you have siblings? Because this is a dynamic I've seen where one partner as an only child (with permissive parents and/or a big house) never had to get used to sharing space with someone else, so they have a ton of stuff, don't understand how a cat puts you out, never think that loud phone conversations might be an intrusion. While the one with siblings (or in-home grandparents who need quiet, or from a very small house, whatever) is used to always having to think of others and considers others in their living space all the time as a matter of course.
If it's this ongoing thoughtlessness, it helps to know that it's not DELIBERATE; it's an ingrained habit. But it's a habit that's not going to change very much, so you have to decide if you can live with it. And she has to decide if she can at least make an effort to be more considerate of others in her space.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:20 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
If it's this ongoing thoughtlessness, it helps to know that it's not DELIBERATE; it's an ingrained habit. But it's a habit that's not going to change very much, so you have to decide if you can live with it. And she has to decide if she can at least make an effort to be more considerate of others in her space.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:20 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
You understand that being married to her implies living with her, right? Forever, presumably.
posted by Neekee at 11:22 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Neekee at 11:22 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
if you want to break up - ask her to move out.
if you want to stay together - get a bigger place, no matter the sacrifice.
posted by nadawi at 11:23 AM on January 18, 2011
if you want to stay together - get a bigger place, no matter the sacrifice.
posted by nadawi at 11:23 AM on January 18, 2011
I don't get the "you don't like her very much" vibe that other people seem to be getting. It's totally possible to love someone and also be irritated by them sometimes, particularly when living in a small space that doesn't allow for you to find solitude when you need it.
The people suggesting you need a larger apartment (preferably with an extra room for quiet reading or loud Skype calls) are right, but if you can't afford something like that right now I'd suggest getting the new apartment while still keeping your old one. Even if it's the same size it would give you a place to store some of your extra stuff, and if hers is a bit larger you can both move into that one. As a bonus, you'll have a place for friends and family to stay if they come out to visit you.
posted by stefanie at 1:29 PM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
The people suggesting you need a larger apartment (preferably with an extra room for quiet reading or loud Skype calls) are right, but if you can't afford something like that right now I'd suggest getting the new apartment while still keeping your old one. Even if it's the same size it would give you a place to store some of your extra stuff, and if hers is a bit larger you can both move into that one. As a bonus, you'll have a place for friends and family to stay if they come out to visit you.
posted by stefanie at 1:29 PM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Meh. I'm not one of those people who thinks your relationship has to look like my relationship or its broken. If you currently live in an apartment so small that it is detrimental to your relationship, and she has an opportunity to fix that, you could take the approach that living together in this apartment isn't working out and that she should take this opportunity for everyone to have more space while the two of you look for a new place.
But yeah; if you want her to move out and you don't have a game plan for how and when the two of you will live together again, that's probably not a great sign.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:58 PM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
But yeah; if you want her to move out and you don't have a game plan for how and when the two of you will live together again, that's probably not a great sign.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:58 PM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
You should decide now if you want to continue the relationship. She has the chance to get her own place and it would be more difficult for her if you guys break up in a month or two and she has nowhere to go.
That said, things that you would never think twice about in a normal-sized space can become extremely irritating in a very small apartment, and it doesn't matter how much you love/like the other person.
Can both of you ask your employers for a housing stipend (for a larger place) instead of the free apartments? If not, 10 minutes apart is nothing and it just might save your relationship. She could be feeling claustrophobic, too. Which one of you brought up the fact that a separate place was part of her job offer?
posted by martianna at 2:58 PM on January 18, 2011
That said, things that you would never think twice about in a normal-sized space can become extremely irritating in a very small apartment, and it doesn't matter how much you love/like the other person.
Can both of you ask your employers for a housing stipend (for a larger place) instead of the free apartments? If not, 10 minutes apart is nothing and it just might save your relationship. She could be feeling claustrophobic, too. Which one of you brought up the fact that a separate place was part of her job offer?
posted by martianna at 2:58 PM on January 18, 2011
"Should the fiance stay or should she go? She has a chance to move out, no strings attached, no penalties, no hard feelings... but should I ask her to, make her, or something else?"
She has a CHANCE to move out? You mean a choice right? You know, after she TRIES to mend the error of her ways? Sorry for being snarky. But you sound in this opening sentence like you're deciding everything, and she gets the amazing offer of what you have solely decided sans consultation with her.
"No hard feelings?" Have you taken into account the potential that she may have hard feelings? "No penalties?" How about moving to be with your fiance, the love of her life, and then being told she has to move out because she has loud conversations with her family? It's a penalty for her.
Wow. I'm sorry OP, but your question really rankled me. I know someone like you. He keeps saying he's looking for the love of his life, the perfect woman, and then every woman he finds and promises to commit to, he then finds something mundane/trivial that somehow makes her imperfect. Like she dared to leave his bedroom a mess. Or like she questioned his motives in a decision. Things that NORMAL couples talk about, grapple with, daily. Instead of talking to his girlfriends about these issues, he pushes them away, says he needs a break, until they inevitably break up with him. Then he says they didn't want to try hard enough - most times the girl doesn't even know what her error was, it was that unidentifiable.
Maybe I'm projecting, whatever. Maybe you're not this guy. But your question seems awfully cold, and you're giving up what I presume to be a serious commitment, for daily trivialities.
I come from a loud, noisy, cacklng family. When we skype, they want to wave hello to my SO as well and talk to him, we're just loving like that. One day my SO said, "hey, I don't mind if you start the chat in the loungeroom, and we do the HI! HI! WAVE! thing, but would you mind taking the next 40 mins to the bedroom so I can watch sports whilst you discuss which auntie is hosting dinner next?" - and surprise surprise, it worked. I have a lot of stuff. We discussed storage options after moving in together, so my stuff didn't bother him.
Communication is an incredible thing, and you don't seem to have shown any signs of having tried it. And you're just pushing her away, which is incredibly selfish and unfair. It's very self involved, and indicates that you're perhaps not ready for a relationship, let alone this relationship.
Do her a favour. Break up with her, or ask for a break. But ensure she knows exactly the reasons as you've outlined above, and let HER make the decision whether or not to stick around waiting for you. I know if you were my SO, and I'd seen this question, I wouldn't be giving you a chance, I'd go out there and find myself a partner who adored me and was willing to work through the truly trivialities of life exactly as they are - trivialities. So show her this question, the way you've posed it to us, and let HER make the decision. I think you'll find you don't need to "make her".
And if she decides to stay, for the love of god, buy her a skyping headset.
posted by shazzam! at 5:33 PM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
She has a CHANCE to move out? You mean a choice right? You know, after she TRIES to mend the error of her ways? Sorry for being snarky. But you sound in this opening sentence like you're deciding everything, and she gets the amazing offer of what you have solely decided sans consultation with her.
"No hard feelings?" Have you taken into account the potential that she may have hard feelings? "No penalties?" How about moving to be with your fiance, the love of her life, and then being told she has to move out because she has loud conversations with her family? It's a penalty for her.
Wow. I'm sorry OP, but your question really rankled me. I know someone like you. He keeps saying he's looking for the love of his life, the perfect woman, and then every woman he finds and promises to commit to, he then finds something mundane/trivial that somehow makes her imperfect. Like she dared to leave his bedroom a mess. Or like she questioned his motives in a decision. Things that NORMAL couples talk about, grapple with, daily. Instead of talking to his girlfriends about these issues, he pushes them away, says he needs a break, until they inevitably break up with him. Then he says they didn't want to try hard enough - most times the girl doesn't even know what her error was, it was that unidentifiable.
Maybe I'm projecting, whatever. Maybe you're not this guy. But your question seems awfully cold, and you're giving up what I presume to be a serious commitment, for daily trivialities.
I come from a loud, noisy, cacklng family. When we skype, they want to wave hello to my SO as well and talk to him, we're just loving like that. One day my SO said, "hey, I don't mind if you start the chat in the loungeroom, and we do the HI! HI! WAVE! thing, but would you mind taking the next 40 mins to the bedroom so I can watch sports whilst you discuss which auntie is hosting dinner next?" - and surprise surprise, it worked. I have a lot of stuff. We discussed storage options after moving in together, so my stuff didn't bother him.
Communication is an incredible thing, and you don't seem to have shown any signs of having tried it. And you're just pushing her away, which is incredibly selfish and unfair. It's very self involved, and indicates that you're perhaps not ready for a relationship, let alone this relationship.
Do her a favour. Break up with her, or ask for a break. But ensure she knows exactly the reasons as you've outlined above, and let HER make the decision whether or not to stick around waiting for you. I know if you were my SO, and I'd seen this question, I wouldn't be giving you a chance, I'd go out there and find myself a partner who adored me and was willing to work through the truly trivialities of life exactly as they are - trivialities. So show her this question, the way you've posed it to us, and let HER make the decision. I think you'll find you don't need to "make her".
And if she decides to stay, for the love of god, buy her a skyping headset.
posted by shazzam! at 5:33 PM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think others have answered the overall question better than I could, but one thing did stand out to me:
but should I ask her to, make her, or something else?
As in, force her to, against her will? Could that ever really end well?
posted by Talisman at 6:25 PM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
but should I ask her to, make her, or something else?
As in, force her to, against her will? Could that ever really end well?
posted by Talisman at 6:25 PM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Sounds like you might just go nuts living with this chick for the rest of your life...
posted by Glendale at 8:45 PM on January 18, 2011
posted by Glendale at 8:45 PM on January 18, 2011
In some "how to move in together" question on Ask, someone advised that you absolutely need two comfortable rooms with doors that close, so that someone can read while someone sleeps, and both people can have a decent place to cry/call mom/sleep it off/punch a pillow/write in their journal/whatever after the occasional newlywed (or just newly-cohabitating) fight.
posted by salvia at 10:48 PM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 10:48 PM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I have a happy marriage with my husband of 9 years. I could have written this post during the first months of my marriage, in many ways (stuff in personal space; no personal space; being irritated by little things).
That said, we live in a small space. And I am not good at small spaces. Hearing someone breathing in the next room is enough to make me angry if I haven't had enough alone time lately. He's nearly as bad as I am.
We have a no-fault 'bugger off for the day/afternoon/evening' agreement - if one of us desperately needs that alone time, that solitude, so we don't have the crazy, we just say so, and the other person goes and does something else, elsewhere, for a while.
I also get annoyed at having stuff all over - and my husband is not tidy. He leaves empty packets, dirty dishes, and stuff everywhere. It bugs the living daylights out of me, but when I can clean up, I do. And when we can afford it, we have a cleaner.
I will say with complete honesty, before we worked out these and other compromises, living together was hell for both of us. We loved each other very much, but when you're rubbed raw by sheer presence, all sorts of little things assume mountainous proportions.
So basically: talk about it. Or, it just may not work.
The one red flag in this is the cat. What the hell, bringing another life into your relationship without discussion?
posted by ysabet at 10:50 PM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
That said, we live in a small space. And I am not good at small spaces. Hearing someone breathing in the next room is enough to make me angry if I haven't had enough alone time lately. He's nearly as bad as I am.
We have a no-fault 'bugger off for the day/afternoon/evening' agreement - if one of us desperately needs that alone time, that solitude, so we don't have the crazy, we just say so, and the other person goes and does something else, elsewhere, for a while.
I also get annoyed at having stuff all over - and my husband is not tidy. He leaves empty packets, dirty dishes, and stuff everywhere. It bugs the living daylights out of me, but when I can clean up, I do. And when we can afford it, we have a cleaner.
I will say with complete honesty, before we worked out these and other compromises, living together was hell for both of us. We loved each other very much, but when you're rubbed raw by sheer presence, all sorts of little things assume mountainous proportions.
So basically: talk about it. Or, it just may not work.
The one red flag in this is the cat. What the hell, bringing another life into your relationship without discussion?
posted by ysabet at 10:50 PM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
Yeah, the cat thing would piss me off.
But I came here to say that changing the space in which you live, DOES change the way in which you live. I could have said the same things you have about my partner - for 8 years until we renovated our house to put in extra space we had irritations and niggles about not having our own space. We even bought the house next door to us, and we lived next door to each other for a year. But after making one place bigger, with a proper study, entertaining area, spare room etc, we're past those irritations. It's amazing how much organising your space can change the way a couple lives together. Give it a try as the stuff you are feeling frustrated about is really quite a basic cry for your own space in a shared home.
posted by honey-barbara at 2:56 AM on January 19, 2011
But I came here to say that changing the space in which you live, DOES change the way in which you live. I could have said the same things you have about my partner - for 8 years until we renovated our house to put in extra space we had irritations and niggles about not having our own space. We even bought the house next door to us, and we lived next door to each other for a year. But after making one place bigger, with a proper study, entertaining area, spare room etc, we're past those irritations. It's amazing how much organising your space can change the way a couple lives together. Give it a try as the stuff you are feeling frustrated about is really quite a basic cry for your own space in a shared home.
posted by honey-barbara at 2:56 AM on January 19, 2011
I will give the benefit of the doubt and assume you wrote this question in a frustrated state, perhaps while your fiance was yelling on Skype with her mom. Otherwise, I would have to say the whole tone of your post reeks that you don't like her ie "the fiance" not "my fiance" and the fact that your solution is for her to move out, you don't even mention another solution. That's not a good look.
But if, as I suspect, you were just frustrated when you wrote this, and you really do "like" her and love her, I don't think these issues are necessarily deal-breakers. As others have stated, you HAVE to communicate your frustration to her. Let her know what's going on and try to find a workable solution between the two of you. I think your issues are perfectly understandable, a too-small space with someone who is doing things that you deem not respectful of the little private space you do have. A larger place could fix those things, given that her actions have just been oversights and not outright disrespect (like bringing the cat. Personally, I couldn't do the cat thing, that would be a no-go, but that's just me.)
So I say give it at least a fighting chance before throwing it away. Good luck.
posted by GeniPalm at 5:49 PM on January 20, 2011
But if, as I suspect, you were just frustrated when you wrote this, and you really do "like" her and love her, I don't think these issues are necessarily deal-breakers. As others have stated, you HAVE to communicate your frustration to her. Let her know what's going on and try to find a workable solution between the two of you. I think your issues are perfectly understandable, a too-small space with someone who is doing things that you deem not respectful of the little private space you do have. A larger place could fix those things, given that her actions have just been oversights and not outright disrespect (like bringing the cat. Personally, I couldn't do the cat thing, that would be a no-go, but that's just me.)
So I say give it at least a fighting chance before throwing it away. Good luck.
posted by GeniPalm at 5:49 PM on January 20, 2011
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She's probably not going to get rid of her cat, or not talk to her mom on Skype. If the issue really is room, you should find a larger apartment together.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:26 AM on January 18, 2011 [19 favorites]