Why is my English boyfriend so reserved?
August 5, 2010 10:28 AM Subscribe
Are British people kind of socially retarded or is it normal for them to not be chatty and friendly with people they don't know well?
My boyfriend is English and he is very reserved and quiet around people he's just met. I think he might be a little socially awkward and that's saying something because I consider myself socially inept. I have introduced him to some of my friends and my mom. An average American guy would be quite chatty and ask them lots of questions (do you like your job, what are your hobbies...just random small talk to show your interest in the person), but he basically doesn't speak unless spoken to or asked a direct question. With me he's not gregarious but he does at least talk is really witty and fun.
I have read a book by an Oxford anthropologist called Watching the English and although the book says English people are more reserved than Americans, I am not sure if it's common for them to be THAT reserved. In America it's totally normal for complete strangers to start chatting about their personal lives. How rude do British people consider such behavior?
My boyfriend is English and he is very reserved and quiet around people he's just met. I think he might be a little socially awkward and that's saying something because I consider myself socially inept. I have introduced him to some of my friends and my mom. An average American guy would be quite chatty and ask them lots of questions (do you like your job, what are your hobbies...just random small talk to show your interest in the person), but he basically doesn't speak unless spoken to or asked a direct question. With me he's not gregarious but he does at least talk is really witty and fun.
I have read a book by an Oxford anthropologist called Watching the English and although the book says English people are more reserved than Americans, I am not sure if it's common for them to be THAT reserved. In America it's totally normal for complete strangers to start chatting about their personal lives. How rude do British people consider such behavior?
In America it's totally normal for complete strangers to start chatting about their personal lives.
I would not say that this is true. It might be a regional thing. I am American (northeast). If I brought home a boy who asked my mom, upon meeting her, if she liked her job, I would be faintly horrified.
I think your boyfriend is just a reserved person. It may be partially a cultural thing, as English culture is, on average, one of the more reserved ones, but it is certainly partially his own temperament as well.
posted by millipede at 10:31 AM on August 5, 2010 [8 favorites]
I would not say that this is true. It might be a regional thing. I am American (northeast). If I brought home a boy who asked my mom, upon meeting her, if she liked her job, I would be faintly horrified.
I think your boyfriend is just a reserved person. It may be partially a cultural thing, as English culture is, on average, one of the more reserved ones, but it is certainly partially his own temperament as well.
posted by millipede at 10:31 AM on August 5, 2010 [8 favorites]
This is... kind of offensively phrased.
That said, human beings have different levels of reserve and unreserve. Not everyone opens up to strangers easily.
Also, your language indicates some hostility, at least at the subterranean level. If he's picking that up it might not be helping him relax.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 10:31 AM on August 5, 2010 [61 favorites]
That said, human beings have different levels of reserve and unreserve. Not everyone opens up to strangers easily.
Also, your language indicates some hostility, at least at the subterranean level. If he's picking that up it might not be helping him relax.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 10:31 AM on August 5, 2010 [61 favorites]
Oh, and don't generalize about America. There are plenty of parts of America where talking to complete strangers about your personal life is weird and rude.
posted by ishotjr at 10:32 AM on August 5, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by ishotjr at 10:32 AM on August 5, 2010 [4 favorites]
You are making a huge amount of unfair generalizations.
I suspect your boyfriend is shy and reserved, or maybe just not interested in forging relationships with your friends, or even your mother.
posted by litnerd at 10:32 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I suspect your boyfriend is shy and reserved, or maybe just not interested in forging relationships with your friends, or even your mother.
posted by litnerd at 10:32 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yeah, your question is offensive. Not all Americans are one way and not all English people are another way. He's just reserved.
posted by Lobster Garden at 10:33 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Lobster Garden at 10:33 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
" In America it's totally normal for complete strangers to start chatting about their personal lives."
This happens to be an extremely rude and annoying phenomenon. We Americans are known for our "openness" toward strangers, but that trait too often tips into a tsunami of verbal diarrhea.
Your boyfriend sounds like a civilized, well-brought up person.
posted by BostonTerrier at 10:34 AM on August 5, 2010 [8 favorites]
This happens to be an extremely rude and annoying phenomenon. We Americans are known for our "openness" toward strangers, but that trait too often tips into a tsunami of verbal diarrhea.
Your boyfriend sounds like a civilized, well-brought up person.
posted by BostonTerrier at 10:34 AM on August 5, 2010 [8 favorites]
Could it be he's introverted? Also, as having worked in both USA and the UK, I think that is a gross overgeneralization of personalities.
posted by TrinsicWS at 10:36 AM on August 5, 2010
posted by TrinsicWS at 10:36 AM on August 5, 2010
I don't think this is necessarily because he's British.
You might be better served asking yourself instead if this behavior is something you're okay with.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 10:36 AM on August 5, 2010
You might be better served asking yourself instead if this behavior is something you're okay with.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 10:36 AM on August 5, 2010
I am American (northeast).
As am I, and I'm somewhat reserved with new people. I concur with millipede, there are ways to be more and less reserved as an American just like there are ways to be more and less reserved as a British person. Maybe you didn't mean retarded to sound like an insult, but again welcome to the world of cultural semantics. it sounds like you're basically saying there is something wrong with your boyfriend. My feeling is that there's not really a wrong or right in this case, but there's definitely a "bad fit" possibility.
posted by jessamyn at 10:39 AM on August 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
As am I, and I'm somewhat reserved with new people. I concur with millipede, there are ways to be more and less reserved as an American just like there are ways to be more and less reserved as a British person. Maybe you didn't mean retarded to sound like an insult, but again welcome to the world of cultural semantics. it sounds like you're basically saying there is something wrong with your boyfriend. My feeling is that there's not really a wrong or right in this case, but there's definitely a "bad fit" possibility.
posted by jessamyn at 10:39 AM on August 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
As an American who's lived in London for a short period of time, I'd say there is some truth to the stereotype of the British as reserved. It's not unheard of for them to start conversations with strangers, but it's probably more common in the US.
You may have a confirmation bias. Naturally, you notice people's outgoing behavior more than you notice reserved behavior. You conclude that the outgoing behavior represents everyone because it's so much more visible.
There are Americans who consider it "kind of socially retarded" for "complete strangers to start chatting about their personal lives."
posted by Jaltcoh at 10:39 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
You may have a confirmation bias. Naturally, you notice people's outgoing behavior more than you notice reserved behavior. You conclude that the outgoing behavior represents everyone because it's so much more visible.
There are Americans who consider it "kind of socially retarded" for "complete strangers to start chatting about their personal lives."
posted by Jaltcoh at 10:39 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I (an American) was in England and Scotland for two weeks earlier this year. I had chats with lots of random English (and Scottish) people.
Your generalizations are incorrect.
posted by rtha at 10:40 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Your generalizations are incorrect.
posted by rtha at 10:40 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh, and I was not usually the person starting the conversation.
posted by rtha at 10:41 AM on August 5, 2010
posted by rtha at 10:41 AM on August 5, 2010
Did you seriously just ask if an entire country had the same personality trait? And that that trait is 'social retardation'? REALLY?
The answer to the question about all brits is 'No'.
The answer to the silent question about you is 'yes'.
posted by Kololo at 10:42 AM on August 5, 2010 [27 favorites]
The answer to the question about all brits is 'No'.
The answer to the silent question about you is 'yes'.
posted by Kololo at 10:42 AM on August 5, 2010 [27 favorites]
I can't believe anyone has to point this out to you, but sometimes people from different cultures behave different from people from other cultures. Or it could be that he just doesn't like your friends and family.
posted by dhammond at 10:43 AM on August 5, 2010
posted by dhammond at 10:43 AM on August 5, 2010
As an American living in London, I concur with Jaltcoh.
That is, yes, there is something there - Americans are kind of renowned for their chattiness.
But, I also agree you are overgeneralizing. Heck, I sometimes work in a sales office filled with British guys and I often wish they'd shut up. :)
posted by vacapinta at 10:44 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
That is, yes, there is something there - Americans are kind of renowned for their chattiness.
But, I also agree you are overgeneralizing. Heck, I sometimes work in a sales office filled with British guys and I often wish they'd shut up. :)
posted by vacapinta at 10:44 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
An average American guy would be quite chatty and ask them lots of questions (do you like your job, what are your hobbies
I am English and I'd find the behaviour you describe as 'normal' as somewhat rude and/or invasive. These two factors may or may not be related in any way. You can, however, directly link them with gross generalisations as you seem to have adopted.
Just as a data point - As I said, I am English and would consider those kinds of questions intrusive from a total stranger, and would expect that kind of thing to be offered, not extracted from people. I'd have to know someone fairly well to pry into their lives, and 'small talk' is pretty much defined in my upbringing as not being about personal details such as that.
In addition, I really don't care about those details from complete strangers. I couldn't care less if they like their job until I have decided I like them enough to give a crap. As such, I'd not bother asking anything of that sort of detail until I got to know them. However, I am kind of anti-social to some.
Also, I would find it perfectly normal for a shy person who is fine talking to peers or people they know well may adopt the viewpoint that it is easier not to say too much than risk asking or saying something that may offend. This is, to my mind, a pretty understandable viewpoint. Once they can judge the person better, they will perhaps open up once they establish the chance of doing so without inadvertently offend.
posted by Brockles at 10:47 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I am English and I'd find the behaviour you describe as 'normal' as somewhat rude and/or invasive. These two factors may or may not be related in any way. You can, however, directly link them with gross generalisations as you seem to have adopted.
Just as a data point - As I said, I am English and would consider those kinds of questions intrusive from a total stranger, and would expect that kind of thing to be offered, not extracted from people. I'd have to know someone fairly well to pry into their lives, and 'small talk' is pretty much defined in my upbringing as not being about personal details such as that.
In addition, I really don't care about those details from complete strangers. I couldn't care less if they like their job until I have decided I like them enough to give a crap. As such, I'd not bother asking anything of that sort of detail until I got to know them. However, I am kind of anti-social to some.
Also, I would find it perfectly normal for a shy person who is fine talking to peers or people they know well may adopt the viewpoint that it is easier not to say too much than risk asking or saying something that may offend. This is, to my mind, a pretty understandable viewpoint. Once they can judge the person better, they will perhaps open up once they establish the chance of doing so without inadvertently offend.
posted by Brockles at 10:47 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
So, I'm English and not in any way offended by your question (I can't speak for the rest of my *cough* people, since that would be a generalisation and all).
Yes, we're probably a bit more reserved on the whole than Americans. For the second part of your question, I'd be a little weirded out if someone on the train started chatting to me, but if it was at a party then that'd be alright.
posted by muteh at 10:48 AM on August 5, 2010
Yes, we're probably a bit more reserved on the whole than Americans. For the second part of your question, I'd be a little weirded out if someone on the train started chatting to me, but if it was at a party then that'd be alright.
posted by muteh at 10:48 AM on August 5, 2010
In America it's totally normal for complete strangers to start chatting about their personal lives.
Thank God I don't like in America! Oh, wait. I do. Or is New York City not part of the USA any more? In Manhattan, we keep to ourselves. (Largely -- of course there are exceptions.)
I have lived in both the US (Indiana, Ohio, California, Florida) and London. I've met introverts and extroverts in both countries. I'm an extreme introvert, and I've often been annoyed by gregarious strangers in London. I DO think there's a GENERAL trend towards reservedness in the UK and a GENERAL trend towards extroversion in the US -- but those trends are VERY VERY VERY general. Many citizens of both countries don't fit the stereotypes.
Do you come from the South? My wife does, and so I've spent some time in Alabama and Georgia. Here's a stereotype for you: people in those states are VERY chatty to strangers. (Of course this is a generalization.) I often don't get how Southerners get anything done. I've had trouble walking three blocks without getting into nineteen conversations.
posted by grumblebee at 10:51 AM on August 5, 2010 [12 favorites]
Thank God I don't like in America! Oh, wait. I do. Or is New York City not part of the USA any more? In Manhattan, we keep to ourselves. (Largely -- of course there are exceptions.)
I have lived in both the US (Indiana, Ohio, California, Florida) and London. I've met introverts and extroverts in both countries. I'm an extreme introvert, and I've often been annoyed by gregarious strangers in London. I DO think there's a GENERAL trend towards reservedness in the UK and a GENERAL trend towards extroversion in the US -- but those trends are VERY VERY VERY general. Many citizens of both countries don't fit the stereotypes.
Do you come from the South? My wife does, and so I've spent some time in Alabama and Georgia. Here's a stereotype for you: people in those states are VERY chatty to strangers. (Of course this is a generalization.) I often don't get how Southerners get anything done. I've had trouble walking three blocks without getting into nineteen conversations.
posted by grumblebee at 10:51 AM on August 5, 2010 [12 favorites]
My entire family is introverted and not chatty.
And most of my friends.
We all grew up in Boston.
I've noticed in other parts of this country (I live in Tennessee now and have lived in Florida) - people are way more talkative, less sarcastic and make more eye contact. it's actually hard to get used to.
So, i think you have a valid question. people have asked me about my personality and if it's because of where I'm from. I don't find it insulting at all. I'm curious about cultures and the way people act - so I've asked similiar questions as yours plenty of times.
posted by KogeLiz at 10:52 AM on August 5, 2010
And most of my friends.
We all grew up in Boston.
I've noticed in other parts of this country (I live in Tennessee now and have lived in Florida) - people are way more talkative, less sarcastic and make more eye contact. it's actually hard to get used to.
So, i think you have a valid question. people have asked me about my personality and if it's because of where I'm from. I don't find it insulting at all. I'm curious about cultures and the way people act - so I've asked similiar questions as yours plenty of times.
posted by KogeLiz at 10:52 AM on August 5, 2010
I'm an American too, and I would diagnose your boyfriend's condition as politeness. Would that more of my countrymen suffered the same affliction.
posted by .kobayashi. at 10:57 AM on August 5, 2010 [8 favorites]
posted by .kobayashi. at 10:57 AM on August 5, 2010 [8 favorites]
I grew up in the southern United States, where people are supposedly extra-friendly and chatty. And I'm so introverted that if the barista at Starbucks recognizes me and remembers my usual order, it feels like an invasion of privacy. Culture can be an influence, but I'd just chalk it up to people being people.
posted by Metroid Baby at 11:00 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Metroid Baby at 11:00 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Take a look at this excerpt from Michael Moffat's Coming of Age In New Jersey about what Moffat calls 'the American value of "friendliness."'
posted by tangerine at 11:03 AM on August 5, 2010 [7 favorites]
In the assumptions of most Americans, the contemporary self is neither self-contained nor exclusive in its affiliations. It is or it should be potentially open to other selves in its most authentic form;if you are a good, normal American human being in the 1980s, you should be ready, under certain unstated circumstances, to extend friendship to any other human being regardless of the artificial distinctions that divide people in the real world. To be otherwise is to be something other than a properly egalitarian American; it is to be "snobbish"; it is to "think you are better thanother people." Americans know perfectly well that they cannot actually be friends with everyone, but in many daily contexts most of them still feel obliged to act as if they might be, to act friendly. To act friendly is to give regular abbreviated performances of the standard behaviors of real friendship -- to look pleased and hapy when you meet someone, to put on the all-American friendly smile, to acknowledge the person you are meeting by name (preferably by the first name, shortened version), to make casual body contact, to greet the person with one of the two or three conventional queries about the state of their 'whole self' ("How are you?" "How's it goin'?" "What's new?")Also, as others have pointed out, not all American regional and class cultures consider it "totally normal for complete strangers to start chatting about their personal lives."
The knowledge that "friendly" is often social etiquette, that it does not always mean that the person who is acting friendly wants or expects to be friends, can be a subtle matter. Foreigners, especially from closely related Western European cultures in which similar behavior is only produced under more genuinely intimate circumstances, have to learn to distinguish American friendliness from real friendship before they can function smoothly in the United States. Well-raised Americans, on the other hand, usually understand the distinction without thinking about it consciously.
posted by tangerine at 11:03 AM on August 5, 2010 [7 favorites]
I said "Excuse me" to a New Yorker once and got a mouthful of entirely unwarranted in-my-face loud aggressive abuse once.
An argument formed from an anecdote is an illusion. From an incomprehensible, context-free anecdote doubly so.
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 11:07 AM on August 5, 2010
An argument formed from an anecdote is an illusion. From an incomprehensible, context-free anecdote doubly so.
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 11:07 AM on August 5, 2010
Are British people kind of socially retarded or is it normal for them to not be chatty and friendly with people they don't know well?
No.
I'm an American. Lived in Scotland for a year. If anything, the reality might even be the opposite of what you describe, although that's also a nasty generalization, and could just be my Northeastern roots talking. I've also noticed that the British generalization of Americans is just as wrong as the American generalization of Brits. There are overarching cultural differences, although they're a lot more subtle than most people make them out to be.*
Of course, generalizing Americans is a pretty difficult task as well. Finding commonalities between somebody from Alabama and somebody from Boston, and then comparing that to the commonalities between somebody from London and somebody from Belfast is a tricky task.
Even though it's a much smaller nation, there is a considerable level of cultural fragmentation in the UK, even beyond the division of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Most noticeably, English accents can vary considerably from town to town. I'm not going to pretend to be perceptive enough to carve out any concrete differences between Americans and Brits.... the difference is there, although it's probably not what you think it is.
*For instance, did you know that trespassing is not a crime or even an offense in Scotland? This is completely unfathomable to most Americans.
posted by schmod at 11:08 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
No.
I'm an American. Lived in Scotland for a year. If anything, the reality might even be the opposite of what you describe, although that's also a nasty generalization, and could just be my Northeastern roots talking. I've also noticed that the British generalization of Americans is just as wrong as the American generalization of Brits. There are overarching cultural differences, although they're a lot more subtle than most people make them out to be.*
Of course, generalizing Americans is a pretty difficult task as well. Finding commonalities between somebody from Alabama and somebody from Boston, and then comparing that to the commonalities between somebody from London and somebody from Belfast is a tricky task.
Even though it's a much smaller nation, there is a considerable level of cultural fragmentation in the UK, even beyond the division of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Most noticeably, English accents can vary considerably from town to town. I'm not going to pretend to be perceptive enough to carve out any concrete differences between Americans and Brits.... the difference is there, although it's probably not what you think it is.
*For instance, did you know that trespassing is not a crime or even an offense in Scotland? This is completely unfathomable to most Americans.
posted by schmod at 11:08 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
How are you defining "personal"? Maybe we (UK/US) just have different ideas of what counts?
Whether this is "normal" strongly depends on which part of England your bf is from. Danger: Sweeping generalities ahoy!
I grew up in a rural(ish) area, where people are happy to chat with strangers and get to know each other quite easily. Personal lives might well be talked about with relative strangers and new acquaintances, depending how you define personal. "I've had a busy week" / "My relative just got married" / "I tried that recipe last week" all seem plausible.
I have family in small towns in the north of England where people are polite and welcoming to a fault, but would regard a stranger suddenly dumping their personal lives on them as bizarre and, as you so charmingly put it, "socially retarded".
I now live in London, where most people present themselves as right miserable bastards. For the most part, it's practically impossible to make eye contact with a Londoner you don't know (especially on public transport; some contexts are easier), much less get a conversation going. Even then, it seems to take much longer to get past generalities than I'm used to.
I don't meet that many Americans (and most of them are tourists, so there's a sampling bias), but I haven't noticed a big difference between UK and US attitudes. Some are very guarded like Londoners and some are much friendlier and more open like the people in my home village. I don't have an outside view of Brits - maybe we're more homogenous than I think - but the range of American attitudes that I've encountered seems about the same as the range of UK attitudes that I'm used to.
So my bet would be that it's not a UK/US thing, but a small town / big city thing?
posted by metaBugs at 11:10 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Whether this is "normal" strongly depends on which part of England your bf is from. Danger: Sweeping generalities ahoy!
I grew up in a rural(ish) area, where people are happy to chat with strangers and get to know each other quite easily. Personal lives might well be talked about with relative strangers and new acquaintances, depending how you define personal. "I've had a busy week" / "My relative just got married" / "I tried that recipe last week" all seem plausible.
I have family in small towns in the north of England where people are polite and welcoming to a fault, but would regard a stranger suddenly dumping their personal lives on them as bizarre and, as you so charmingly put it, "socially retarded".
I now live in London, where most people present themselves as right miserable bastards. For the most part, it's practically impossible to make eye contact with a Londoner you don't know (especially on public transport; some contexts are easier), much less get a conversation going. Even then, it seems to take much longer to get past generalities than I'm used to.
I don't meet that many Americans (and most of them are tourists, so there's a sampling bias), but I haven't noticed a big difference between UK and US attitudes. Some are very guarded like Londoners and some are much friendlier and more open like the people in my home village. I don't have an outside view of Brits - maybe we're more homogenous than I think - but the range of American attitudes that I've encountered seems about the same as the range of UK attitudes that I'm used to.
So my bet would be that it's not a UK/US thing, but a small town / big city thing?
posted by metaBugs at 11:10 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, it's all stereotype, but certainly many British people would recognise the stereotype of the loud American who seeks to be intimate enough to call strangers by their first names almost from the get go.
I was once told off roundly by an American girlfriend in sort of inversion of the OP. Building a yurt with her friends one day, the physical activity of it all meant I was very "matey" in a British way, which all fans of Top Gear will know involves a degree of joshing and satirical intimacy. Result a telling off and the information that all her friends thought I was a jerk. Relationship ended soon after.
posted by A189Nut at 11:13 AM on August 5, 2010
I was once told off roundly by an American girlfriend in sort of inversion of the OP. Building a yurt with her friends one day, the physical activity of it all meant I was very "matey" in a British way, which all fans of Top Gear will know involves a degree of joshing and satirical intimacy. Result a telling off and the information that all her friends thought I was a jerk. Relationship ended soon after.
posted by A189Nut at 11:13 AM on August 5, 2010
KimikoPi: “I have introduced him to some of my friends and my mom. An average American guy would be quite chatty and ask them lots of questions (do you like your job, what are your hobbies...just random small talk to show your interest in the person), but he basically doesn't speak unless spoken to or asked a direct question.”
You might think this is a way in which the English are different from Americans. But even aside from the vast regional differences between Americans themselves (all Americans are not the same in this respect) I think you're simply wrong here. I am an American guy, and every single time I've ever been dating someone and I met her friends or especially her mother or father, I was very reserved; it's hard for me to imagine very many situations in which I'd be more reserved, in fact. People are often careful when they're meeting those who are close to a new partner, because this is a situation where it's important to make a good impression; being quieter and more reserved makes perfect sense. He's probably just trying to be respectful; that's exactly what I would've done in his place.
posted by koeselitz at 11:15 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
You might think this is a way in which the English are different from Americans. But even aside from the vast regional differences between Americans themselves (all Americans are not the same in this respect) I think you're simply wrong here. I am an American guy, and every single time I've ever been dating someone and I met her friends or especially her mother or father, I was very reserved; it's hard for me to imagine very many situations in which I'd be more reserved, in fact. People are often careful when they're meeting those who are close to a new partner, because this is a situation where it's important to make a good impression; being quieter and more reserved makes perfect sense. He's probably just trying to be respectful; that's exactly what I would've done in his place.
posted by koeselitz at 11:15 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
I read a while ago a discussion of the divergence of British and American ideas of politeness in the 1800s ... it talked about how in the 1800s, the UK became an increasingly urbanized society with extreme crowding in the cities, where people would pretend they couldn't see or hear things in order to get along better with neighbors they lived literally on top of, to preserve social harmony. Whereas in the 1800s in the US, the frontier was open and people on the frontier, or traveling that way, might go weeks or even months without seeing anyone but their immediately family, and lives could depend on the help of strangers; in such extreme isolation, a premium was placed on friendliness with strangers, even though you might only see them once as they rolled through to the West.
I don't know enough about social science or the history of manners to know if this is a good analysis, but it does seem in cities people create a little artificial distance, and in less urban areas people create a little artificial friendliness. And I don't mean artificial in a bad way; just that the concentration of people in urban areas suggests a little standoffishness as polite, to allow people to preserve the fiction of privacy; while in more rural areas politeness suggests giving people the opportunity to share and enjoy company even if you're not friends per se, an opportunity people may not have as often.
(As an American, when a complete stranger starts chatting with me about their personal life, I get nervous and see if I can move to a different seat on public transit, or otherwise extricate myself from an uncomfortably awkward conversation.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:16 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
I don't know enough about social science or the history of manners to know if this is a good analysis, but it does seem in cities people create a little artificial distance, and in less urban areas people create a little artificial friendliness. And I don't mean artificial in a bad way; just that the concentration of people in urban areas suggests a little standoffishness as polite, to allow people to preserve the fiction of privacy; while in more rural areas politeness suggests giving people the opportunity to share and enjoy company even if you're not friends per se, an opportunity people may not have as often.
(As an American, when a complete stranger starts chatting with me about their personal life, I get nervous and see if I can move to a different seat on public transit, or otherwise extricate myself from an uncomfortably awkward conversation.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:16 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
I said "Excuse me" to a New Yorker once and got a mouthful of entirely unwarranted in-my-face loud aggressive abuse once.
The perceived "unfriendliness" of New Yorkers has more to do with personal space than anything else. You just need to learn to read body language, and respect people who do not wish to be bothered. If you're in NYC, and are having a busy/stressful/angsty day, there's no place for you to disappear to and be left alone. Instead, you have to share a very small area of public space with several million people.
Most New Yorkers are friendly, helpful, and sociable. If one brushes you off, it's probably not personal (or even anything to do with you).
posted by schmod at 11:18 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
The perceived "unfriendliness" of New Yorkers has more to do with personal space than anything else. You just need to learn to read body language, and respect people who do not wish to be bothered. If you're in NYC, and are having a busy/stressful/angsty day, there's no place for you to disappear to and be left alone. Instead, you have to share a very small area of public space with several million people.
Most New Yorkers are friendly, helpful, and sociable. If one brushes you off, it's probably not personal (or even anything to do with you).
posted by schmod at 11:18 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
on non-preview, what metabugs says about urban/rural
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:18 AM on August 5, 2010
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:18 AM on August 5, 2010
Also, for what it's worth: there are many people who've pointed out that the "American guy" is more diverse than you're allowing for in your question – some are gregarious and talkative, some aren't – but so far no one's pointed out that the same is true on the other side of the equation. There are British (and in particular English) guys who act exactly the way you're describing. In fact, my sense of it is that there exists within the British psyche a capacity to be much more rude than any American would dream of. I have a feeling this is all tied up with social class, which has always meant more in Britain than it does in the US. Also, England is much more geographically diverse than the US (as far as societal variation and local distinctiveness goes – which makes sense, considering the fact that the whole United Kingdom is smaller than Texas) and you'll find cultural differences there all over; some people tend to be louder, some people tend to be quieter, etc.
posted by koeselitz at 11:29 AM on August 5, 2010
posted by koeselitz at 11:29 AM on August 5, 2010
My wife and I grew up the same state (but opposite sides of Iowa). Her family has the chat virus bigtime (they can't even sit down and watch tv or movie without chatting). My family is the 'say what you need to, otherwise keep your yapper shut' type. So its not a regional, national, or international thing. People and families are just different.
posted by ducktape at 11:41 AM on August 5, 2010
posted by ducktape at 11:41 AM on August 5, 2010
I'm English and sort of middling on the introversion-extroversion spectrum. I live in London, and have done for 15 years though am originally from the Northwest. The book that you mention discusses the reserve of the English in the context of how we live in very close proximity to each other, and how this is a form of negative politeness - you wouldn't want to intrude on someone else's privacy or time alone. In the same book, parallels are drawn with Japan, where there is also a high degree of population density.
Having said that...despite that Watching the English may be written by an Oxford anthropologist, but I found it a very unsatisfying book to read and is really only good on the south-eastern established middle class. Which is a roundabout way of saying that Kate Fox, amongst many others, says that the English are generally reserved, I find Londoners reserved, but apart from that I think it's a generalisation without much going for it. I very seldom start a conversation with strangers. If I were introduced to people socially as in your examples, I would try to think of something to talk about, but it would be very unlikely to be what hobbies you have or whether you like your job. I'd have to consider someone a friend before I asked the second particularly. I don't really think anyone can answer your question; I'm shy-ish and English, but the second probably didn't cause the first.
Otherwise, the British image of ourselves is that we keep a stiff upper lip, and that if we absolutely have to talk to a stranger, we talk about the weather, but we're also renowned in Europe for our large groups of drunken stag parties - who are generally anything but reserved. So who knows?
(maybe think through suggesting an entire nation are socially retarded a little more next time though?)
posted by calico at 11:43 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Having said that...despite that Watching the English may be written by an Oxford anthropologist, but I found it a very unsatisfying book to read and is really only good on the south-eastern established middle class. Which is a roundabout way of saying that Kate Fox, amongst many others, says that the English are generally reserved, I find Londoners reserved, but apart from that I think it's a generalisation without much going for it. I very seldom start a conversation with strangers. If I were introduced to people socially as in your examples, I would try to think of something to talk about, but it would be very unlikely to be what hobbies you have or whether you like your job. I'd have to consider someone a friend before I asked the second particularly. I don't really think anyone can answer your question; I'm shy-ish and English, but the second probably didn't cause the first.
Otherwise, the British image of ourselves is that we keep a stiff upper lip, and that if we absolutely have to talk to a stranger, we talk about the weather, but we're also renowned in Europe for our large groups of drunken stag parties - who are generally anything but reserved. So who knows?
(maybe think through suggesting an entire nation are socially retarded a little more next time though?)
posted by calico at 11:43 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
In Minnesota people talk to strangers rarely and if they do it's always about the weather or the Vikings (football team).
posted by ShadePlant at 11:44 AM on August 5, 2010
posted by ShadePlant at 11:44 AM on August 5, 2010
I'm a Brit married to an American and have lived in the US for close to 20 years now.
Are all English people reserved? Absolutely not. Are some Brits reserved? Yes, very much so, just like some Americans are reserved. I personally hate talking to people I don't know and my wonderful, beautiful American wife has no problem striking up conversations with total strangers. She thinks its because of my English reserve, but I just don't interact freely with people I don't know.
But it's kind of dumb to assume everybody from England is the same just because one person you know is uncomfortable with strangers. Maybe your b/f is just shy. What a concept.
posted by 543DoublePlay at 11:46 AM on August 5, 2010
Are all English people reserved? Absolutely not. Are some Brits reserved? Yes, very much so, just like some Americans are reserved. I personally hate talking to people I don't know and my wonderful, beautiful American wife has no problem striking up conversations with total strangers. She thinks its because of my English reserve, but I just don't interact freely with people I don't know.
But it's kind of dumb to assume everybody from England is the same just because one person you know is uncomfortable with strangers. Maybe your b/f is just shy. What a concept.
posted by 543DoublePlay at 11:46 AM on August 5, 2010
In Manhattan, we keep to ourselves.
I've always found that in NYC people keep to themselves on the street or on the subway, but once you're standing in line in the deli or pizza place the floodgates open and you have to hear all about everyone's emotional problems, or even about their periods.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:59 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I've always found that in NYC people keep to themselves on the street or on the subway, but once you're standing in line in the deli or pizza place the floodgates open and you have to hear all about everyone's emotional problems, or even about their periods.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:59 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I agree with Jaltcoh and vacapinta, though my knowledge of the English is pretty much just London, and I haven't spent that much time in the US (maybe 6 or 7 weeks all up, in several states).
I've definitely found Americans less reserved and more willing to start conversations with me, a stranger, than are English people. Even in supposedly unfriendly NYC.
Although it occurs to me that those people could be outliers - e.g. if even 1% of Americans are incredibly gregarious and start conversations with random strangers, it would appear that Americans as a whole were very outgoing.
posted by Infinite Jest at 12:21 PM on August 5, 2010
I've definitely found Americans less reserved and more willing to start conversations with me, a stranger, than are English people. Even in supposedly unfriendly NYC.
Although it occurs to me that those people could be outliers - e.g. if even 1% of Americans are incredibly gregarious and start conversations with random strangers, it would appear that Americans as a whole were very outgoing.
posted by Infinite Jest at 12:21 PM on August 5, 2010
but he basically doesn't speak unless spoken to or asked a direct question
Meet my husband, MuddDude. He's not British (he was born in California) - he's just shy.
posted by muddgirl at 12:45 PM on August 5, 2010
Meet my husband, MuddDude. He's not British (he was born in California) - he's just shy.
posted by muddgirl at 12:45 PM on August 5, 2010
Judging by your appalling and unapologetic phrasing, I'll venture a guess that you were raised in a family with low expectations of personal space and ideas. That's perfectly fine, but it doesn't mean that "most Americans" are like you. The basic problem here is that you see yourself as an average American, so you assume that all average Americans are like you. Likewise, you see your boyfriend as an average Briton and assume that all average Britons are like him. This is false. Likely, he was raised by a family that instilled strict manners in him regarding speaking to adults. I don't know your or your boyfriend's age, but I'm guessing that you're both fairly young. If he's fairly young, he still may be uncomfortable addressing other adults because he doesn't consider himself an adult.
People are raised differently with different values. This has nothing really to do with where you were raised, but who you are raised by.
posted by InsanePenguin at 12:48 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
People are raised differently with different values. This has nothing really to do with where you were raised, but who you are raised by.
posted by InsanePenguin at 12:48 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
It has nothing to do with his Britishness, and your question is offensive as asked.
posted by rocket88 at 1:12 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by rocket88 at 1:12 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
In America it's totally normal for complete strangers to start chatting about their personal lives.
I'm an American. I'm not shy. I just choose to speak rarely, and almost never to strangers. I've met both Brits and Americans who are like me, and others who wouldn't shut up.
My conclusion: People are different.
posted by coolguymichael at 1:18 PM on August 5, 2010
I'm an American. I'm not shy. I just choose to speak rarely, and almost never to strangers. I've met both Brits and Americans who are like me, and others who wouldn't shut up.
My conclusion: People are different.
posted by coolguymichael at 1:18 PM on August 5, 2010
I have read a book by an Oxford anthropologist called Watching the English
Which has some moments of anecdotal fun, like much of SIRC's output, but it's best read with the same pinch of salt as you would a Bill Bryson book.
People are different. Some of it gets tied up into regional clusters or class expectations. It was Yorkshire Day this week, and the supposed taciturn character of the region -- "hear all, see all, say nowt" -- co-exists with a selective gregariousness, where there are unspoken but understood boundaries as to what gets talked about with whom.
So put me down with "a wee bit offensive as phrased".
posted by holgate at 2:00 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Which has some moments of anecdotal fun, like much of SIRC's output, but it's best read with the same pinch of salt as you would a Bill Bryson book.
People are different. Some of it gets tied up into regional clusters or class expectations. It was Yorkshire Day this week, and the supposed taciturn character of the region -- "hear all, see all, say nowt" -- co-exists with a selective gregariousness, where there are unspoken but understood boundaries as to what gets talked about with whom.
So put me down with "a wee bit offensive as phrased".
posted by holgate at 2:00 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
You know even if (IF!) British people tend to be one and way Americans tend to be another, it's pretty rude to assume that the American way is normal. I'm horrified when strangers start chatting to me (am neither British nor American although I have lived in the US for 10 years). Some might say (and they would also be wrong) that British people tend towards being polite and unintrusive and Americans are pushy and in-your-face.
posted by gaspode at 2:02 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by gaspode at 2:02 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Born and raised Canadian here. What you describe of your boyfriend's behaviour and personality sounds well within the norms of my society, which is often caricatured as halfway between English and American.
Similar to what several other commenters have noted, I find it rude and offensive "for complete strangers to start chatting about their personal lives", though I would extend "complete strangers" to "those who are not close friends".
posted by thatdawnperson at 2:17 PM on August 5, 2010
Similar to what several other commenters have noted, I find it rude and offensive "for complete strangers to start chatting about their personal lives", though I would extend "complete strangers" to "those who are not close friends".
posted by thatdawnperson at 2:17 PM on August 5, 2010
I think it's good manners for a well-established group to be welcoming to an outsider, not the reverse. If your family meet your boyfriend for the first time, I'd expect your family to be the ones making small talk, trying to put him at his ease. Similarly, when two people meet I'd expect the older one, the more senior or experienced one, or the one on home turf to be the one making more of the effort.
posted by emilyw at 2:34 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by emilyw at 2:34 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'd expect your family to be the ones making small talk, trying to put him at his ease
Worth pointing out that (as we've seen above) the variation isn't just in amount of small talk, but in what subjects actually do put people at their ease. One subculture's friendly questions are another's intrusive interrogation.
posted by tangerine at 3:12 PM on August 5, 2010
Worth pointing out that (as we've seen above) the variation isn't just in amount of small talk, but in what subjects actually do put people at their ease. One subculture's friendly questions are another's intrusive interrogation.
posted by tangerine at 3:12 PM on August 5, 2010
I should add (having grown up in Canada, now living in the US, also lived in the UK) that I'm generally glad to chat with strangers who are so inclined, but I hate hate hate personal questions.
posted by tangerine at 3:21 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by tangerine at 3:21 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
Ignoring the offensiveness of your question, I'll say this as a British person living in the US. When I meet an American, who has not met any/very few other British people, they have a hard time distinguishing between my own personal character traits and those of the whole nation. And often I have to justify myself in comparison with other English people they might know if our personalities contradict each other. It is really tedious. This seems to be one of those cases.
Yes, there are sweeping national characteristics, but it's a lot more complex than that. But given that you've read a book on the English (yes, I've read it too, and it is pretty accurate) and have appear to be not very well traveled, I would suggest the issue is with you, and not them. Try not seeing life quite so black and white.
posted by poissonrouge at 3:53 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes, there are sweeping national characteristics, but it's a lot more complex than that. But given that you've read a book on the English (yes, I've read it too, and it is pretty accurate) and have appear to be not very well traveled, I would suggest the issue is with you, and not them. Try not seeing life quite so black and white.
posted by poissonrouge at 3:53 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
So, from your previous questions I see that your boyfriend started off in England and presumably is visiting you in the US (or has recently moved there). So he's suddenly surrounded by a familiar but somewhat alien culture. Part of the reason that Americans in England are able to strike up conversations is that they're a novelty and that's interesting enough to make allowances for any cross-cultural awkwardness. Your boyfriend's outnumbered. In his place I'd be inclined to be quiet while I scoped out the situation and worked out what the rules are.
Or he could just be shy.
(Also, English, didn't find your question offensive at all.)
posted by xchmp at 4:34 PM on August 5, 2010
Or he could just be shy.
(Also, English, didn't find your question offensive at all.)
posted by xchmp at 4:34 PM on August 5, 2010
Mod note: Few comments removed - Guys I think the OP is clear that the phrasing of this question leaves a lot ot be desired. Can you answer the question or go to MeTa if you can't answer this question civilly?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:15 PM on August 5, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:15 PM on August 5, 2010
One subculture's friendly questions are another's intrusive interrogation.
I think that's more relevant here than a spectrum of introversion/extroversion. It's somewhat of a cliché to say that "money, politics and religion" are traditionally verboten in polite British conversation, but it holds to some degree. That's what the weather is for.
posted by holgate at 6:12 PM on August 5, 2010
I think that's more relevant here than a spectrum of introversion/extroversion. It's somewhat of a cliché to say that "money, politics and religion" are traditionally verboten in polite British conversation, but it holds to some degree. That's what the weather is for.
posted by holgate at 6:12 PM on August 5, 2010
British, lived in the US for a while.
Whilst some British people are reserved in the way that you say, this is approximately equal to the amount of Americans I have encountered who behave in the way that you describe. When I was at law school in the US the vast majority of my American college-mates were reserved in the way that you describe, whilst I was working in Cape Cod, the vast amount of Americans I encountered where what I would term overly intrusive about my life.
Equally in certain situations I come across large groups of my fellow countrymen who are obnoxious in their intrusiveness (last night on the bus home being one of those occasions!).
My advice? Whilst there may be some truth to stereotypes, it doesn't do to sweepingly generalise. We do have very different cultures despite using the same language.
posted by nunoidia at 11:18 PM on August 5, 2010
Whilst some British people are reserved in the way that you say, this is approximately equal to the amount of Americans I have encountered who behave in the way that you describe. When I was at law school in the US the vast majority of my American college-mates were reserved in the way that you describe, whilst I was working in Cape Cod, the vast amount of Americans I encountered where what I would term overly intrusive about my life.
Equally in certain situations I come across large groups of my fellow countrymen who are obnoxious in their intrusiveness (last night on the bus home being one of those occasions!).
My advice? Whilst there may be some truth to stereotypes, it doesn't do to sweepingly generalise. We do have very different cultures despite using the same language.
posted by nunoidia at 11:18 PM on August 5, 2010
Still waters run deep. He's probably an observer. (or you know, shy).
posted by dabitch at 3:54 PM on August 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by dabitch at 3:54 PM on August 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by ishotjr at 10:31 AM on August 5, 2010 [6 favorites]