Who's my lover?
August 15, 2009 7:09 AM Subscribe
So, women-who-have-sex-with-women, what do you consider having had sex?
I know that there is a school of thought that defines any significant sexual acts as having had sex. I also know that I wouldn't count just oral or manual sex with men in my list of men with whom I'd "had sex." Sexual activity? Yes, absolutely. Sexual activity that requires attention to STD details? Yes. But did I fuck X? No, I didn't fuck him, just a handjob. (If you have a huge problem with this definition, you may not need to answer this question.)
As a bisexual woman, I've drawn the line between messed around/foreplay/sexual activity/made out-with and "had sex with" in wholly subjective ways. Seems that we (me and other woman with whom i did...something) pretty much agree on the line, generally.
In heterosexual sex, one can quibble about the definition of "had sex" all one likes, but once penis is in vagina, no-one is disputing that this means that you've been lovers. In gay relationships, it seems to be a fuzzier line.
Sure, there's stuff between women that it is acknowledged that you'd only do with a more serious lover within the context of a relationship (i.e. we not usually fisting on the first date), but queer girls, where do you draw the line between making out and fucking?
I know that there is a school of thought that defines any significant sexual acts as having had sex. I also know that I wouldn't count just oral or manual sex with men in my list of men with whom I'd "had sex." Sexual activity? Yes, absolutely. Sexual activity that requires attention to STD details? Yes. But did I fuck X? No, I didn't fuck him, just a handjob. (If you have a huge problem with this definition, you may not need to answer this question.)
As a bisexual woman, I've drawn the line between messed around/foreplay/sexual activity/made out-with and "had sex with" in wholly subjective ways. Seems that we (me and other woman with whom i did...something) pretty much agree on the line, generally.
In heterosexual sex, one can quibble about the definition of "had sex" all one likes, but once penis is in vagina, no-one is disputing that this means that you've been lovers. In gay relationships, it seems to be a fuzzier line.
Sure, there's stuff between women that it is acknowledged that you'd only do with a more serious lover within the context of a relationship (i.e. we not usually fisting on the first date), but queer girls, where do you draw the line between making out and fucking?
Actually, not everyone agrees on the heteronormative penis-in-vagina definition of having sex. I would consider anal sex "having sex," and Dan Savage is big on the point that oral sex counts as having sex.
To answer your question, though, most WSWs I know (and have talked to about their sex lives) say that once they've given or received oral with their partner, they have had sex.
posted by emilyd22222 at 7:19 AM on August 15, 2009 [2 favorites]
To answer your question, though, most WSWs I know (and have talked to about their sex lives) say that once they've given or received oral with their partner, they have had sex.
posted by emilyd22222 at 7:19 AM on August 15, 2009 [2 favorites]
I think some queer girls here are likely to find your question condescending and heterosexist, as your premise appears based in a completely heterosexual default that may come across as uncomfortably similar to that of the clichéd, straight boy voyeur.
That said, I think that genital contact --straight, bi, or gay--equals “having sex.”
posted by applemeat at 7:26 AM on August 15, 2009 [12 favorites]
That said, I think that genital contact --straight, bi, or gay--equals “having sex.”
posted by applemeat at 7:26 AM on August 15, 2009 [12 favorites]
My working definition is that if you can whack "sex" into the descriptor, then it's fucking. Oral sex? Sex. Anal sex? Sex. Manual stimulation? Not so much.
I'd also suggest that the more extreme ends on manual stimulation count too. Fisting and fucking with a strap on are worlds more involved than clitoral fingering and tickling with a feather.
posted by Jilder at 7:28 AM on August 15, 2009
I'd also suggest that the more extreme ends on manual stimulation count too. Fisting and fucking with a strap on are worlds more involved than clitoral fingering and tickling with a feather.
posted by Jilder at 7:28 AM on August 15, 2009
I don't honestly see why there has to be a difference as to what constitutes sex with a man and what constitutes sex with a woman. And I don't see why subjective judgements are somehow worse than the kind of "only PIV is sex" belief that some people hold. When we get away from simple categories of sexual activity like anal/oral/PIV/manual, there is such a fantastically broad realm of what people actually do, that we have to hold all definitions of sex to be personal and individual. Your subjective view is fine, and any answer is just an opinion.
Personally though, if the act was both consensual and about either me or my partner moving towards or getting to orgasm, then that's sex. I know that probably covers everything more involved than groping, but I'm not a sex-is-serious kinda person, it's just fun with people you like.
posted by Sova at 7:57 AM on August 15, 2009 [4 favorites]
Personally though, if the act was both consensual and about either me or my partner moving towards or getting to orgasm, then that's sex. I know that probably covers everything more involved than groping, but I'm not a sex-is-serious kinda person, it's just fun with people you like.
posted by Sova at 7:57 AM on August 15, 2009 [4 favorites]
Something is "sex" if the people involved think it was "sex". In any given situation you already know what one participant (you!) thinks. You can find out what the other person(s) think by asking them. This works for any word.
posted by phrontist at 8:08 AM on August 15, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by phrontist at 8:08 AM on August 15, 2009 [4 favorites]
I believe the key to the Secret Lesbian Code is in the near-universal terminology used to describe sex acts:
Oral sex
Manual sex
Anal sex
Strap-on sex
Comparing those acts to where they fall within the heterosexual spectrum is an exercise in futility and arguably, some kind of weird heterosexist normalisation.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:57 AM on August 15, 2009 [8 favorites]
Oral sex
Manual sex
Anal sex
Strap-on sex
Comparing those acts to where they fall within the heterosexual spectrum is an exercise in futility and arguably, some kind of weird heterosexist normalisation.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:57 AM on August 15, 2009 [8 favorites]
yeah, pretty much when the genitals are involved.
which is to say, what darlingbri sez.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:36 AM on August 15, 2009
which is to say, what darlingbri sez.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:36 AM on August 15, 2009
I think Phobes had it in one: once the bits are involved, that's sex.
Also, wasn't this the main conflict of Chasing Amy?
posted by rokusan at 9:42 AM on August 15, 2009
Also, wasn't this the main conflict of Chasing Amy?
posted by rokusan at 9:42 AM on August 15, 2009
I hope this is contributing to the discussion of the question posted rather than chatfilter, and I could certainly never claim to be a lesbian (the closest I have been is having sex with a lesbian couple).
That said, I think the elephant in the room with this question is the gendered stigma of sexual experience. Women are (unfairly) devalued for sexual experience. There is a cultural standard that says that if you are a women, the more sex you have had, the less valuable you are as a partner, as if your sexuality were a limited resource that previous lovers have used up.
Given this absurd and unfair standard of judgement, and the fact that standards like these are difficult to challenge and to change, it only makes sense to try to classify as many of your experiences as possible as not being sex. As far as I am concerned, until this double standard is gone, women can feel free to count their sexual partners in any manner they like, because half truths about how many people you have fucked are not nearly as harmful as the slut stigma.
posted by idiopath at 9:48 AM on August 15, 2009 [2 favorites]
That said, I think the elephant in the room with this question is the gendered stigma of sexual experience. Women are (unfairly) devalued for sexual experience. There is a cultural standard that says that if you are a women, the more sex you have had, the less valuable you are as a partner, as if your sexuality were a limited resource that previous lovers have used up.
Given this absurd and unfair standard of judgement, and the fact that standards like these are difficult to challenge and to change, it only makes sense to try to classify as many of your experiences as possible as not being sex. As far as I am concerned, until this double standard is gone, women can feel free to count their sexual partners in any manner they like, because half truths about how many people you have fucked are not nearly as harmful as the slut stigma.
posted by idiopath at 9:48 AM on August 15, 2009 [2 favorites]
Manual stimulation? Not so much.
What.
I guess there's a whole lot of sex I thought I'd had that I actually haven't had, then. Sometimes penetration - by fingers, dildo, whatever - just isn't going to happen for whatever reason, but just because it didn't doesn't make it not sex.
Agree with others that if the genitals are in play, so to speak, it's definitely sex. If they're not, it still might be sex, depending.
posted by rtha at 10:26 AM on August 15, 2009 [2 favorites]
What.
I guess there's a whole lot of sex I thought I'd had that I actually haven't had, then. Sometimes penetration - by fingers, dildo, whatever - just isn't going to happen for whatever reason, but just because it didn't doesn't make it not sex.
Agree with others that if the genitals are in play, so to speak, it's definitely sex. If they're not, it still might be sex, depending.
posted by rtha at 10:26 AM on August 15, 2009 [2 favorites]
rtha: By "manual stimulation", I just meant groping and heavy petting. But you know, I'm not the one having your sex. You are, and if you think it's sex, then it's sex. Sexy sex.
posted by Jilder at 10:49 AM on August 15, 2009
posted by Jilder at 10:49 AM on August 15, 2009
My definition with partners of either sex is OPA, orgasm-producing activity. Doesn't 100% match up with "when genitals are involved" I suppose but very similar.
posted by olecranon at 10:59 AM on August 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by olecranon at 10:59 AM on August 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
My definition with partners of either sex is OPA, orgasm-producing activity. Doesn't 100% match up with "when genitals are involved" I suppose but very similar.
That's my definition of good sex. The problem with defining sex that way is that then, anytime someone's faking it (no matter how much fucking is going on), they're not having sex.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:13 AM on August 15, 2009 [3 favorites]
That's my definition of good sex. The problem with defining sex that way is that then, anytime someone's faking it (no matter how much fucking is going on), they're not having sex.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:13 AM on August 15, 2009 [3 favorites]
Plenty of good definitions above.
What's so important about about crossing the line from "making out" to "fucking" that definitions need to be made?
posted by notyou at 12:37 PM on August 15, 2009
What's so important about about crossing the line from "making out" to "fucking" that definitions need to be made?
posted by notyou at 12:37 PM on August 15, 2009
Oh, I think crossing the line is a big deal in a relationship or if you are hoping for one. Dating someone you are making out with is not the same a dating someone you are having sex with. Once you cross that line, people have some expectations that you need to accept.
(If you are doing sexy stuff and not dating and not looking for a relationship, it's sex. If the person you did this with didn't know you weren't dating and not looking for a relationship, that's a problem you've created and need to fix.
If you accidentally do sexy stuff with someone when drunk or upset or somehow foggy and have regrets, if there is any wiggle room, then you have just learned to stop doing sexy stuff when you are drunk or upset or otherwise foggy because it leads to confusion and possibly hurting people.)
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:06 PM on August 15, 2009
(If you are doing sexy stuff and not dating and not looking for a relationship, it's sex. If the person you did this with didn't know you weren't dating and not looking for a relationship, that's a problem you've created and need to fix.
If you accidentally do sexy stuff with someone when drunk or upset or somehow foggy and have regrets, if there is any wiggle room, then you have just learned to stop doing sexy stuff when you are drunk or upset or otherwise foggy because it leads to confusion and possibly hurting people.)
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:06 PM on August 15, 2009
The canonical (non-)answer: Are We Having Sex Now or What?
posted by gingerbeer at 1:39 PM on August 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by gingerbeer at 1:39 PM on August 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
As a bisexual lady, I have a category of sex that I've had labelled "lesbian sex." This covers all genital activities that don't involve a penis entering a vagina. Thus, I have even had "lesbian sex" with some men. It even works in conversation - people immediately know what I mean by "Oh, he and I only had lesbian sex."
(Yeah, even a blow-job in this situation counts as lesbian sex. Which actually isn't all that counter-intuitive since I know a number of lesbians who get off from strap-on "cock sucking.")
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:27 PM on August 15, 2009 [2 favorites]
(Yeah, even a blow-job in this situation counts as lesbian sex. Which actually isn't all that counter-intuitive since I know a number of lesbians who get off from strap-on "cock sucking.")
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:27 PM on August 15, 2009 [2 favorites]
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2006/09/are_we_having_s_1.html
posted by crawfo at 3:42 PM on August 15, 2009
posted by crawfo at 3:42 PM on August 15, 2009
Isn't sex what happens when people get together in the pursuit of orgasms? Honestly don't care how an O happens if another person is involved, it is sex to me.
posted by psycho-alchemy at 4:01 PM on August 15, 2009
posted by psycho-alchemy at 4:01 PM on August 15, 2009
I think it depends on the people involved. If two people have had intimate relations with each other in a way they percieve is sex, then it's sex. I'm a Gold Star (sarcasm, I don't actually like that term) but I don't consider myself a virgin, because I've had oral sex with my ex-girlfriend.
posted by alon at 4:08 PM on August 15, 2009
posted by alon at 4:08 PM on August 15, 2009
A blurry combination of nakedness, genitals and/or orgasms. I can't be bothered with the difficulty in defining, so I just don't define it. =P
posted by Enki at 4:45 PM on August 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Enki at 4:45 PM on August 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
I am bisexual, and I differentiate making out and sex the exact same way for both sexes:
Above the waist = making out
Below the waist = sex
posted by sunshinesky at 6:20 PM on August 15, 2009 [3 favorites]
Above the waist = making out
Below the waist = sex
posted by sunshinesky at 6:20 PM on August 15, 2009 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
When genitals get involved.
There's a whole host of problems with the common heterosexual definition of only penis-in-vagina/penetrative intercourse as intercourse, among them that things like marital rape and non-consexual sex are sometimes seen, in the media, as fucking.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:18 AM on August 15, 2009 [1 favorite]