Mom: I'm not going to call you back.
July 11, 2009 6:34 PM Subscribe
MomFilter: help me deal with mine!
I do not have good relationship with my mom. I'm mid-forties and the reasons relate to events that occurred when I was a teen, and my parents split up. Beyond that, it's not relevant to what I'd like input on- it's just establishing the foundation.
I'm talking to those of you who:
- Rarely see your mom
- Rarely talk to, email or ortherwise communicate with your mom (I last saw mine in October of last year and she lives 3-4 hours away)
- Have no desire to see/talk to/spend time with your mom
- Get no enjoyment out of anything connected with your mom
- Are not really bothered by this situation.
I don't need anything from her, and I don't feel that she has the right to demand anything of me. Yet she texts, calls and emails using very accusatory language; things like "don't you care about me?" or "Why do you hate me?"
My life is so far removed from hers, she wouldn't understand the bulk of anything I might say to her about work or activities. The effort it would take to "translate" or summarize a report about my current events would be pointless, because it's not really the news she wants- she just wants me to do it. There is never any real exchange of information or give and take in these calls- they consist of her listening to me, then launching immediately into her own tales of woe that she wants my commiseration and validation of. "OK, I heard your news; now listen to how bad MY life sucks..." She inflames all my worst avoidance instincts. I will send a $50 flower arrangement rather than make a phone call.
I really do not think she has any idea about why I am like this. To explain it all would dump a lot of crap on her that, despite my stance, seems cruel. I grant you that she probably views my lack of involvement as cruel but I don't want to add to that by getting into the deep-seated reasons. Again- to go that far would initiate a level of contact and enagement that I just do not want to maintain.
You may ask- do I WANT to improve this relationship? By "improve," if you mean "rebuild and move toward a mother/child relationship that the average person would characterize as normal"- no, I really do not see that as my goal. I have lived this long without it and those needs are being met in other ways. There's nothing I would gain from such a change. SHE would be the one to gain, were that to occur.
What I want is for her to accept things as they are and to stop expecting my behavior to fit whatever model she has built up in her head, or is getting from TV, her friends etc. as to how kids are "supposed" to act. I will not do what she wants. I will not be the person she seems to need me to be. Is there a default level of obligation just because she is my mom?
I need language that lets me express that in spite of recognizing her demanding nature, she needs to chill. I have had to disable websites, delete blogs, and other evasive maneuvers due to her almost pathological aggression in searching for information about me online. I will never be comfortable opening up in this way and frankly don't give ANYONE lots of infomation about myself. I have fewer than 30 Facebook friends- I don't want the world knowing everything about me. I'm the anti-oversharer.
I was going to say "I don't want to hurt her" but I know that I am already hurting her. But even that doesn't really bug me that much. This is, again, tied to the origin of all the issues years ago. My primary goal is to get her to stop expecting results I will never be able to deliver. If any of you have endured similar situations, please let me know how you handled it.
I do not have good relationship with my mom. I'm mid-forties and the reasons relate to events that occurred when I was a teen, and my parents split up. Beyond that, it's not relevant to what I'd like input on- it's just establishing the foundation.
I'm talking to those of you who:
- Rarely see your mom
- Rarely talk to, email or ortherwise communicate with your mom (I last saw mine in October of last year and she lives 3-4 hours away)
- Have no desire to see/talk to/spend time with your mom
- Get no enjoyment out of anything connected with your mom
- Are not really bothered by this situation.
I don't need anything from her, and I don't feel that she has the right to demand anything of me. Yet she texts, calls and emails using very accusatory language; things like "don't you care about me?" or "Why do you hate me?"
My life is so far removed from hers, she wouldn't understand the bulk of anything I might say to her about work or activities. The effort it would take to "translate" or summarize a report about my current events would be pointless, because it's not really the news she wants- she just wants me to do it. There is never any real exchange of information or give and take in these calls- they consist of her listening to me, then launching immediately into her own tales of woe that she wants my commiseration and validation of. "OK, I heard your news; now listen to how bad MY life sucks..." She inflames all my worst avoidance instincts. I will send a $50 flower arrangement rather than make a phone call.
I really do not think she has any idea about why I am like this. To explain it all would dump a lot of crap on her that, despite my stance, seems cruel. I grant you that she probably views my lack of involvement as cruel but I don't want to add to that by getting into the deep-seated reasons. Again- to go that far would initiate a level of contact and enagement that I just do not want to maintain.
You may ask- do I WANT to improve this relationship? By "improve," if you mean "rebuild and move toward a mother/child relationship that the average person would characterize as normal"- no, I really do not see that as my goal. I have lived this long without it and those needs are being met in other ways. There's nothing I would gain from such a change. SHE would be the one to gain, were that to occur.
What I want is for her to accept things as they are and to stop expecting my behavior to fit whatever model she has built up in her head, or is getting from TV, her friends etc. as to how kids are "supposed" to act. I will not do what she wants. I will not be the person she seems to need me to be. Is there a default level of obligation just because she is my mom?
I need language that lets me express that in spite of recognizing her demanding nature, she needs to chill. I have had to disable websites, delete blogs, and other evasive maneuvers due to her almost pathological aggression in searching for information about me online. I will never be comfortable opening up in this way and frankly don't give ANYONE lots of infomation about myself. I have fewer than 30 Facebook friends- I don't want the world knowing everything about me. I'm the anti-oversharer.
I was going to say "I don't want to hurt her" but I know that I am already hurting her. But even that doesn't really bug me that much. This is, again, tied to the origin of all the issues years ago. My primary goal is to get her to stop expecting results I will never be able to deliver. If any of you have endured similar situations, please let me know how you handled it.
What I want is for her to accept things as they are and to stop expecting my behavior to fit whatever model she has built up in her head, or is getting from TV, her friends etc. as to how kids are "supposed" to act. I will not do what she wants. I will not be the person she seems to need me to be. Is there a default level of obligation just because she is my mom?
You sound, in terms of your relationship with your mom and the changes you want in that relationship, like someone close to me. Based on my outsider perspective on this friend's relationship with a difficult father, I think you need to accept the following: the truth is, you can't coerce her into accepting things as they are or force her to change her expectations. My friend has cut ties with their father because the father simply couldn't accept my friend's terms for a relationship (namely, that the drama, negativity, and accusations stop). Sure, it's sad, but it wasn't healthy for them to have a relationship. Just as you don't owe your mother the "results" you can't deliver, you also don't owe her a continued relationship if she won't respect your reasonable requests for limits on the relationship.
You may well have luck saying your piece to your mother, laying out exactly how you feel and what you want from her. At the same time, though I think you'd do well to work on accepting that she's probably going to continue to pursue information about you, and will probably continue to assume you "owe" her something. Maintain whatever level of privacy you'd prefer, and find a way to let yourself let her be frustrated by your choice.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:55 PM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
You sound, in terms of your relationship with your mom and the changes you want in that relationship, like someone close to me. Based on my outsider perspective on this friend's relationship with a difficult father, I think you need to accept the following: the truth is, you can't coerce her into accepting things as they are or force her to change her expectations. My friend has cut ties with their father because the father simply couldn't accept my friend's terms for a relationship (namely, that the drama, negativity, and accusations stop). Sure, it's sad, but it wasn't healthy for them to have a relationship. Just as you don't owe your mother the "results" you can't deliver, you also don't owe her a continued relationship if she won't respect your reasonable requests for limits on the relationship.
You may well have luck saying your piece to your mother, laying out exactly how you feel and what you want from her. At the same time, though I think you'd do well to work on accepting that she's probably going to continue to pursue information about you, and will probably continue to assume you "owe" her something. Maintain whatever level of privacy you'd prefer, and find a way to let yourself let her be frustrated by your choice.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:55 PM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Whether or not you have a "default obligation" depends on your culture and your religion. Only you will know whether you can cut off your mother without guilt or feeling of unfilled obligation.
My thought is that if you are willing to have some regular but limited contact with your mother, it will make her very much happier. My recommendation is buy a copy of Don't Shoot the Dog: A new guide to teaching and training by Karen Pryor. Use her approach to "train" your mother to have more comfortable interactions with you. For example, you let your mother know that you are willing to talk to her by phone once a week for no more than 20 minutes. When she calls, sound happy to hear from her and make a real effort to be a good listener. Don't worry about the content - the goal is to let her feel in contact with you. If she calls at other times be very cool and remind her that you will be talking to her at the scheduled time.
Finally, reconsider whether things would be worse if your mother had some idea of why you are so cold to her. I've tried to imagine what your mother might have done that hurt you so much and yet she doesn't realize it. I can think of several options and, depending on the facts and your mother, she might appreciate knowing the truth even if it hurt. On the other hand, it might be a horrendously bad idea but encourage you to think some more about that decision. If you can, this might be a good thing to sort out with a therapist or a family member who knows your mother and has good judgement about these things.
posted by metahawk at 6:55 PM on July 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
My thought is that if you are willing to have some regular but limited contact with your mother, it will make her very much happier. My recommendation is buy a copy of Don't Shoot the Dog: A new guide to teaching and training by Karen Pryor. Use her approach to "train" your mother to have more comfortable interactions with you. For example, you let your mother know that you are willing to talk to her by phone once a week for no more than 20 minutes. When she calls, sound happy to hear from her and make a real effort to be a good listener. Don't worry about the content - the goal is to let her feel in contact with you. If she calls at other times be very cool and remind her that you will be talking to her at the scheduled time.
Finally, reconsider whether things would be worse if your mother had some idea of why you are so cold to her. I've tried to imagine what your mother might have done that hurt you so much and yet she doesn't realize it. I can think of several options and, depending on the facts and your mother, she might appreciate knowing the truth even if it hurt. On the other hand, it might be a horrendously bad idea but encourage you to think some more about that decision. If you can, this might be a good thing to sort out with a therapist or a family member who knows your mother and has good judgement about these things.
posted by metahawk at 6:55 PM on July 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
I could have written this question. I've seen my own mother twice in the last seventeen years, and I'm about the same age as you. I truly feel that I'm happier without her in my life. I don't feel that I miss her because she was never a particularly wonderful mother in the first place. Just because she is your biological parent doesn't mean you have anything to thank her for. You don't owe her anything.
You don't have to explain to her why you don't want contact with her, but it sounds as if you may need to make it clear that you just want to live your life without her in it. She is pestering you all over the Internet? Not cool. That's stalking. That's creepy.
My mother found out about some health issues I had and subscribed my e-mail address to a ton of medical newsletters and quack websites. That really pissed me off. Now I just don't engage. It is "my turn" to e-mail her, but it's been a good few months now. My husband enjoys a light e-mail conversation with her from time to time, but he knows that this is my decision and he does not give her too many details about our life.
You sound as if you just don't like her very much. That's TOTALLY allowed. You don't need permission for that, and you don't have to feel guilty. You don't have to try to understand your feelings. If you have friends and loved ones to take care of your emotional needs, you'll be just fine.
Don't engage with her. Don't waste money on flowers. I find that innocuous e-cards are a great way to avoid actually engaging in uncomfortable conversations.
And good luck. Mail me if you want to talk offline.
posted by vickyverky at 6:55 PM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
You don't have to explain to her why you don't want contact with her, but it sounds as if you may need to make it clear that you just want to live your life without her in it. She is pestering you all over the Internet? Not cool. That's stalking. That's creepy.
My mother found out about some health issues I had and subscribed my e-mail address to a ton of medical newsletters and quack websites. That really pissed me off. Now I just don't engage. It is "my turn" to e-mail her, but it's been a good few months now. My husband enjoys a light e-mail conversation with her from time to time, but he knows that this is my decision and he does not give her too many details about our life.
You sound as if you just don't like her very much. That's TOTALLY allowed. You don't need permission for that, and you don't have to feel guilty. You don't have to try to understand your feelings. If you have friends and loved ones to take care of your emotional needs, you'll be just fine.
Don't engage with her. Don't waste money on flowers. I find that innocuous e-cards are a great way to avoid actually engaging in uncomfortable conversations.
And good luck. Mail me if you want to talk offline.
posted by vickyverky at 6:55 PM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
There's no rule that says that a child must like their mother, nor the mother her child.
Nevertheless, she carried you under her heart and kept you alive when you were helpless. That counts.
Keep your distance if that's what you need to do. I hope you thanked her at some point.
I don't think there's much to be done but stay away.
posted by reflecked at 7:10 PM on July 11, 2009
Nevertheless, she carried you under her heart and kept you alive when you were helpless. That counts.
Keep your distance if that's what you need to do. I hope you thanked her at some point.
I don't think there's much to be done but stay away.
posted by reflecked at 7:10 PM on July 11, 2009
This is so sad.
It's not hard to imagine scenarios where your actions would indeed be appropriate. And yet I still feel sad for your mother. Unless she is a totally evil beast-and I grant some mothers do fall in that category-the ties she feels to you are things one doesn't understand unless one is a parent oneself. Even if she knows in her head she needs to leave you alone and give you space I'm sure there is something inside her that grieves and longs to contact you.
Having said that, moms can be the most annoying things on the planet. I love my mom, have a good relationship with her, but she has moments where she is a flat pain in the neck. And I as a mother and grandmother who tries really hard to be good in those roles-there are times when I too am a pain in the neck (thankfully I am blessed with adult children who will cheerfully tell me to knock it off when needed.)
I guess what I am saying is-try to have a wee bit of compassion for her. If it is possible for you to carve out some sort of generic relationship with her-even if it is totally shallow and meaningless on your part-I'm telling you it won't be shallow to her. And I say that as someone who cannot share 80 percent of herself with her own mom and dad because they just don't get it and never will.
And again, if we are talking evil beast, ignore the above and go on.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:13 PM on July 11, 2009 [13 favorites]
It's not hard to imagine scenarios where your actions would indeed be appropriate. And yet I still feel sad for your mother. Unless she is a totally evil beast-and I grant some mothers do fall in that category-the ties she feels to you are things one doesn't understand unless one is a parent oneself. Even if she knows in her head she needs to leave you alone and give you space I'm sure there is something inside her that grieves and longs to contact you.
Having said that, moms can be the most annoying things on the planet. I love my mom, have a good relationship with her, but she has moments where she is a flat pain in the neck. And I as a mother and grandmother who tries really hard to be good in those roles-there are times when I too am a pain in the neck (thankfully I am blessed with adult children who will cheerfully tell me to knock it off when needed.)
I guess what I am saying is-try to have a wee bit of compassion for her. If it is possible for you to carve out some sort of generic relationship with her-even if it is totally shallow and meaningless on your part-I'm telling you it won't be shallow to her. And I say that as someone who cannot share 80 percent of herself with her own mom and dad because they just don't get it and never will.
And again, if we are talking evil beast, ignore the above and go on.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:13 PM on July 11, 2009 [13 favorites]
I have not spoken to my mother for almost 14 years now. It's a slightly different situation, but here is what I have learned.
1) It is not realistic to expect any change from her. All you can focus on is how you interact with her. But you should unfortunately, expect her behavior to stay the same.
2) Based on the above, you just need to set boundaries and create situations where she aggravates you minimally. You could limit your phone calls to 10 minutes and have an excuse to get off the phone. You could, if you wanted to put any effort into the relationship, tell her directly what is bothering you. But, honestly it doesn't seem like you want to put any effort into it, and so maybe it would be best to keep things to a minimum.
If you were saying in your post that you wanted to work on the relationship or improve it, I would be giving you a different answer. But, you're not saying that. You have no obligation to have a relationship with someone just because their family. I don't know the exact circumstances, but sometimes it is best to not have a relationship.
But, you haven't given enough details on exactly what her problematic behavior is and what your history is to give more specific advice.
posted by hazyspring at 7:24 PM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
1) It is not realistic to expect any change from her. All you can focus on is how you interact with her. But you should unfortunately, expect her behavior to stay the same.
2) Based on the above, you just need to set boundaries and create situations where she aggravates you minimally. You could limit your phone calls to 10 minutes and have an excuse to get off the phone. You could, if you wanted to put any effort into the relationship, tell her directly what is bothering you. But, honestly it doesn't seem like you want to put any effort into it, and so maybe it would be best to keep things to a minimum.
If you were saying in your post that you wanted to work on the relationship or improve it, I would be giving you a different answer. But, you're not saying that. You have no obligation to have a relationship with someone just because their family. I don't know the exact circumstances, but sometimes it is best to not have a relationship.
But, you haven't given enough details on exactly what her problematic behavior is and what your history is to give more specific advice.
posted by hazyspring at 7:24 PM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Oh, you're talking to me for sure. My mom isn't as bad as yours, but I still don't want to be close to her. What worked for me: fade out. Gradually stop returning calls and emails; take longer and longer to reply. (Never pick up the phone - anyone you want to talk to will leave a message and telemarketers won't waste their time talking to your machine. Win-win.) Eventually, don't reply at all to a large percent of messages. Only reply to things that are important and rational, and totally ignore the trivial and the crazy.
If Mom gets no response out of you, she won't get whatever satisfaction she's looking for and will stop contacting you frequently. Of course, the hard part here is to maintain your steely calm - Moms can push their kids' buttons like nobody else. You have to stop taking her bait, whatever it is, and stay unruffled and as bland as milk. Don't be afraid to change the subject to some neutral topic. If she won't be dissuaded, calmly warn her you won't discuss [whatever] and you'll hang up if she persists. Then you actually have to follow through - this will be really hard, but if she learns you're just bluffing, she wins game, set and match. The key is to be utterly and completely consistent, just like training a puppy - if she "wins" even a tiny fraction of the time, it will be enough reward to keep poking at your buttons. Only if there's zero reward will she stop.
It will probably take several years to reduce her crazy contacts to a minimum, and the first few months will probably be truly awful as she ramps up her efforts to maintain the status quo (see extinction burst). But eventually she'll get tired of making the effort to push your buttons without getting any payoff in return, and things will settle down into a cooler and more distant relationship. (There's even a tiny chance that your relationship will actually improve as she starts to see you as an independent adult, not the little girl she raised.) 20 years ago I had to take a shower after talking to my Mom, it was so stressful and crazy, but now she's pretty much learned what topics are acceptable and what gets shut down right away. I wish I had a better relationship with my Mom, and she hates that I keep her at arm's length, but given our respective personalities we'll never be friends and at least this way we can be civil to each other during our infrequent interactions. Best of luck navigating the treacherous shoals of family dynamics!
posted by Quietgal at 7:30 PM on July 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
If Mom gets no response out of you, she won't get whatever satisfaction she's looking for and will stop contacting you frequently. Of course, the hard part here is to maintain your steely calm - Moms can push their kids' buttons like nobody else. You have to stop taking her bait, whatever it is, and stay unruffled and as bland as milk. Don't be afraid to change the subject to some neutral topic. If she won't be dissuaded, calmly warn her you won't discuss [whatever] and you'll hang up if she persists. Then you actually have to follow through - this will be really hard, but if she learns you're just bluffing, she wins game, set and match. The key is to be utterly and completely consistent, just like training a puppy - if she "wins" even a tiny fraction of the time, it will be enough reward to keep poking at your buttons. Only if there's zero reward will she stop.
It will probably take several years to reduce her crazy contacts to a minimum, and the first few months will probably be truly awful as she ramps up her efforts to maintain the status quo (see extinction burst). But eventually she'll get tired of making the effort to push your buttons without getting any payoff in return, and things will settle down into a cooler and more distant relationship. (There's even a tiny chance that your relationship will actually improve as she starts to see you as an independent adult, not the little girl she raised.) 20 years ago I had to take a shower after talking to my Mom, it was so stressful and crazy, but now she's pretty much learned what topics are acceptable and what gets shut down right away. I wish I had a better relationship with my Mom, and she hates that I keep her at arm's length, but given our respective personalities we'll never be friends and at least this way we can be civil to each other during our infrequent interactions. Best of luck navigating the treacherous shoals of family dynamics!
posted by Quietgal at 7:30 PM on July 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
Without your backstory, it's hard to comment credibly but here goes. The only one of your questions I'll attempt to answer is whether there's a default level of obligation just because she is your mom. I say yes, though the specifics of your situation could change things. For example if she hurt or violated you in a despicable or unforgivable way, that would be different. If it was your dad, for example, and you had grown up with him beating you or molesting you, he'd have given up any default obligation and you wouldn't ever owe him anything. If your mom did something like that, then you don't have any obligation. If it was something less direct, for example, if she made bad choices that led to or contributed to the divorce, that starts to be more of a gray area.
But in general, you are the fruit of her womb. She literally made you. She carried you. She loves you in a way nobody else can, even if she's messed up in some way. You denying yourself to her is the cruelest thing you can do to her, except perhaps not telling her why you deny yourself to her. Leaving her in anguished mystery about why her child won't be in her life - that's horrible. I don't say that as a judgment of you but as a measure of the magnitude of pain it causes. You're willing to let the both of you die with this issue unresolved. With only one life apiece, that seems tragic. Again, I don't know your story, but it's possible you're deluding yourself about showing her mercy by not telling her why you have cut her off. Maybe that's really resistance on your part because it would be too painful for you. Or maybe it's vindictive because you want to hurt her like she hurt you.
Regardless of whether you ever tell her why you have cut her out of your life, it may be that you need to make yourself available to her on a limited basis, making the effort even if you don't want to reconcile and be a mom n' son. You'd just be doing it to give this human being a bit of the one thing she needs and avoid leaving her in torment. It would be a sacrifice on your part, and from the sound of it you might never get anything in return, but would be a human thing to do, less because you owe it and more because she needs it.
OK I guess I'll take a stab at your main question of what you can say to get her to accept that you have cut her out. Nothing. I don't see her ever accepting it based on any calm statement from you that omits your real reasons. She'll continue to not understand because your reasons won't be good enough. Unless you unleash hell on her, drive her away like that dog that won't quit coming around, she'll keep coming at you. Are you willing to do that?
posted by kookoobirdz at 7:41 PM on July 11, 2009 [8 favorites]
But in general, you are the fruit of her womb. She literally made you. She carried you. She loves you in a way nobody else can, even if she's messed up in some way. You denying yourself to her is the cruelest thing you can do to her, except perhaps not telling her why you deny yourself to her. Leaving her in anguished mystery about why her child won't be in her life - that's horrible. I don't say that as a judgment of you but as a measure of the magnitude of pain it causes. You're willing to let the both of you die with this issue unresolved. With only one life apiece, that seems tragic. Again, I don't know your story, but it's possible you're deluding yourself about showing her mercy by not telling her why you have cut her off. Maybe that's really resistance on your part because it would be too painful for you. Or maybe it's vindictive because you want to hurt her like she hurt you.
Regardless of whether you ever tell her why you have cut her out of your life, it may be that you need to make yourself available to her on a limited basis, making the effort even if you don't want to reconcile and be a mom n' son. You'd just be doing it to give this human being a bit of the one thing she needs and avoid leaving her in torment. It would be a sacrifice on your part, and from the sound of it you might never get anything in return, but would be a human thing to do, less because you owe it and more because she needs it.
OK I guess I'll take a stab at your main question of what you can say to get her to accept that you have cut her out. Nothing. I don't see her ever accepting it based on any calm statement from you that omits your real reasons. She'll continue to not understand because your reasons won't be good enough. Unless you unleash hell on her, drive her away like that dog that won't quit coming around, she'll keep coming at you. Are you willing to do that?
posted by kookoobirdz at 7:41 PM on July 11, 2009 [8 favorites]
Reading this, I thought you were my sister because it sounds EXACTLY like her relationship with my mother, minus the searching for info online. My mom's not that tech savvy, though she'd be just like yours if she were savvy enough.
I know why my sister doesn't doesn't want to have anything to with my mom. I think most of her reasons are childish, but it's not my place to tell her that, and anyway, I don't live in her head or see things from her perspective. It also isn't my place to tell my mother why. She's better off not knowing, there's no way to resolve the situation and, on top of my sister's reasons, she generally does not like my mom as a person. If my sister told, my mom it would only hurt her, and no good would come out of it. She has no interest in a relationship with my mom.
My mom, on the other hand, does not know or see the situation for what it really is. She constantly whines about why my sister never calls her, never visits her (she's probably seen my sister 3 times in the past 10 years) or invites her to visit. She thinks all kids call their parents at least weekly, she thinks all sorts of things. Probably due to her relationship with her parents, my cousins relationships with their parents, hollywood and her yenta friends' relationships with their kids. It's a no win situation. Instead of just accepting my sister for who she is, she CONSTANTLY has to force the issue with guilt trips and (not-so-)subtle digs when my sister does make the obligatory holiday or birthday calls. Calls that are mostly filled with my mother and her woe-is-me stories.
She whines to me non-stop about it. She talks about how ashamed she is when family or friends ask about my sister, when was the last time they spoke, etc. A few years back, I started trying to get her to see that my sister is just that sort of person. Seriously, she is. Even though there's no tension between my sister and I, we'll go months w/o speaking and then have a long conversation when we finally do speak. There's nothing wrong with our relationship, but my sister is very self-involved. She doesn't really like to talk on the phone, or talk about anything really. She and I will talk about music or diets or whatever, but my sister isn't into politics, sharing problems, hearing about people's problems, hearing other people's stories, etc. She's just ... like that. So I try to convince my mother that my sister is just the way she is. She's not communicative, she's wrapped up in herself and doesn't really think about calling. Not a slight, she just doesn't think about it. I've tried to get her to accept this and be open with friends and family. When asked, she should just say "oh, [insert name] is just like that, we speak infrequently, but that's just how she is" with a smile and no shame.
It's been a long process, but she's finally able to admit and joke about the way my sister is when the topic comes up with friends or family. She's finally accepted the way my sister is in general. She's sad, and she's disappointed that she doesn't have the relationship she wants to have, but she no longer takes it personally or feels like it's a reflection of something she did as a mother (though my sister's issues are a reflection of something my mother did, but like I said, it is really a trivial thing. It's the equivalent of my mother making my sister brush her hair as a teen and my sister feels that destroyed her life). Her expectations are now managed and she doesn't expect more than holiday or birthday calls, and she's accepted it as reality.
So, my advice to you is to figure out a way to get your mom to manage her expectations. If you have anyone to intervene on your behalf, that would be ideal. I did that for my sister, not because she asked me to, and she doesn't even really know about it, but my mother was driving ME crazy about it. If you don't have anyone to help you get your mom to manage her expectations, you are going to have to do it yourself. It's going to be awful, but I suggest it go something like this:
"mom, I know you are disappointed by our relationship, and I'm sorry that you feel that way. We are very different people. I am a very private person and I am this way with everyone. I know that you probably feel that family relationships should transcend my need for privacy, but this is just who I am. Please stop taking it personally, and please stop trying to make me feel guilty for the person I am. This is my personality and I can not be anyone other than who I am. It's not productive to guilt me or try to turn me into a someone I'm not. I need you to respect my privacy and my boundaries, and stop trying to dig up information about me online. I need you to stop the emails, texts and calls that accuse me of hating you or not caring about you. This is not healthy for either of us, and I need you to accept who I am and what I can give to this relationship"
Perhaps not in those exact words, but words that convey the important points:
-what she is to stop doing
-what she is to stop expecting
-what she is to accept
-that you are who you are as a person, you are not purposely trying to hurt her
If it were me, I'd do it in writing, but I have a hard time speaking when I'm put on the spot. I get so nervous, I cry. Not out of intimidation, just because my mind and emotions shut down. If you can get through it speaking, you'll be able to have peace at the end of the conversation without worrying about her interpretation of your email. If you can't get though it on the phone, go with email. The sooner you start to establish what she can/can't expect, the sooner you will be on your way to your ideal relationship (non-relationship) without the useless guilt Good luck. I really hope this helps and even not knowing your mother, I really feel like getting this out in the open, and establishing real boundaries, will help you to feel more honest in your dealings with your mother.
posted by necessitas at 7:56 PM on July 11, 2009 [6 favorites]
I know why my sister doesn't doesn't want to have anything to with my mom. I think most of her reasons are childish, but it's not my place to tell her that, and anyway, I don't live in her head or see things from her perspective. It also isn't my place to tell my mother why. She's better off not knowing, there's no way to resolve the situation and, on top of my sister's reasons, she generally does not like my mom as a person. If my sister told, my mom it would only hurt her, and no good would come out of it. She has no interest in a relationship with my mom.
My mom, on the other hand, does not know or see the situation for what it really is. She constantly whines about why my sister never calls her, never visits her (she's probably seen my sister 3 times in the past 10 years) or invites her to visit. She thinks all kids call their parents at least weekly, she thinks all sorts of things. Probably due to her relationship with her parents, my cousins relationships with their parents, hollywood and her yenta friends' relationships with their kids. It's a no win situation. Instead of just accepting my sister for who she is, she CONSTANTLY has to force the issue with guilt trips and (not-so-)subtle digs when my sister does make the obligatory holiday or birthday calls. Calls that are mostly filled with my mother and her woe-is-me stories.
She whines to me non-stop about it. She talks about how ashamed she is when family or friends ask about my sister, when was the last time they spoke, etc. A few years back, I started trying to get her to see that my sister is just that sort of person. Seriously, she is. Even though there's no tension between my sister and I, we'll go months w/o speaking and then have a long conversation when we finally do speak. There's nothing wrong with our relationship, but my sister is very self-involved. She doesn't really like to talk on the phone, or talk about anything really. She and I will talk about music or diets or whatever, but my sister isn't into politics, sharing problems, hearing about people's problems, hearing other people's stories, etc. She's just ... like that. So I try to convince my mother that my sister is just the way she is. She's not communicative, she's wrapped up in herself and doesn't really think about calling. Not a slight, she just doesn't think about it. I've tried to get her to accept this and be open with friends and family. When asked, she should just say "oh, [insert name] is just like that, we speak infrequently, but that's just how she is" with a smile and no shame.
It's been a long process, but she's finally able to admit and joke about the way my sister is when the topic comes up with friends or family. She's finally accepted the way my sister is in general. She's sad, and she's disappointed that she doesn't have the relationship she wants to have, but she no longer takes it personally or feels like it's a reflection of something she did as a mother (though my sister's issues are a reflection of something my mother did, but like I said, it is really a trivial thing. It's the equivalent of my mother making my sister brush her hair as a teen and my sister feels that destroyed her life). Her expectations are now managed and she doesn't expect more than holiday or birthday calls, and she's accepted it as reality.
So, my advice to you is to figure out a way to get your mom to manage her expectations. If you have anyone to intervene on your behalf, that would be ideal. I did that for my sister, not because she asked me to, and she doesn't even really know about it, but my mother was driving ME crazy about it. If you don't have anyone to help you get your mom to manage her expectations, you are going to have to do it yourself. It's going to be awful, but I suggest it go something like this:
"mom, I know you are disappointed by our relationship, and I'm sorry that you feel that way. We are very different people. I am a very private person and I am this way with everyone. I know that you probably feel that family relationships should transcend my need for privacy, but this is just who I am. Please stop taking it personally, and please stop trying to make me feel guilty for the person I am. This is my personality and I can not be anyone other than who I am. It's not productive to guilt me or try to turn me into a someone I'm not. I need you to respect my privacy and my boundaries, and stop trying to dig up information about me online. I need you to stop the emails, texts and calls that accuse me of hating you or not caring about you. This is not healthy for either of us, and I need you to accept who I am and what I can give to this relationship"
Perhaps not in those exact words, but words that convey the important points:
-what she is to stop doing
-what she is to stop expecting
-what she is to accept
-that you are who you are as a person, you are not purposely trying to hurt her
If it were me, I'd do it in writing, but I have a hard time speaking when I'm put on the spot. I get so nervous, I cry. Not out of intimidation, just because my mind and emotions shut down. If you can get through it speaking, you'll be able to have peace at the end of the conversation without worrying about her interpretation of your email. If you can't get though it on the phone, go with email. The sooner you start to establish what she can/can't expect, the sooner you will be on your way to your ideal relationship (non-relationship) without the useless guilt Good luck. I really hope this helps and even not knowing your mother, I really feel like getting this out in the open, and establishing real boundaries, will help you to feel more honest in your dealings with your mother.
posted by necessitas at 7:56 PM on July 11, 2009 [6 favorites]
I also have a trying mother, but with the added twist of me being her adopted (at birth) daughter. This means I wonder about the obligatory nature of our relationship on a whole other level.
As far as your question regarding the language to use; I had to confront my mother over her neediness and I just repeated "I am your daughter, not a therapist" over and over. I just let her know in a reasonable tone that I thought she would really enjoy seeing a therapist, as I did, and I hoped she would try to find someone to talk to, besides me.
She didn't get it, but I said it.
Now, I steer conversation into light fluffy things, or keep things at a level that is friendly enough, but not really revealing or honest. She seems happy enough and I don't have to council her on her relationships.
This status quo has been threatened recently with my having a major diagnosis and having to ask my parents for help (financially), but then again, I just talk about doctors and she "reassures" me.
So, distance (not picking up the phone is a great first step) and keeping it light. Oh- and blog under an alias. That's my two cents.
posted by smartypantz at 8:15 PM on July 11, 2009
As far as your question regarding the language to use; I had to confront my mother over her neediness and I just repeated "I am your daughter, not a therapist" over and over. I just let her know in a reasonable tone that I thought she would really enjoy seeing a therapist, as I did, and I hoped she would try to find someone to talk to, besides me.
She didn't get it, but I said it.
Now, I steer conversation into light fluffy things, or keep things at a level that is friendly enough, but not really revealing or honest. She seems happy enough and I don't have to council her on her relationships.
This status quo has been threatened recently with my having a major diagnosis and having to ask my parents for help (financially), but then again, I just talk about doctors and she "reassures" me.
So, distance (not picking up the phone is a great first step) and keeping it light. Oh- and blog under an alias. That's my two cents.
posted by smartypantz at 8:15 PM on July 11, 2009
She loves you in a way nobody else can, even if she's messed up in some way.
Note: not all mothers are capable of loving their children.
posted by availablelight at 8:23 PM on July 11, 2009 [20 favorites]
Note: not all mothers are capable of loving their children.
posted by availablelight at 8:23 PM on July 11, 2009 [20 favorites]
This could be me too.
To change her expectations, it took the act of me setting a boundary with my mother that really hurt her. I asked her to stay in a hotel when she was coming to town... to visit my brother. Even offering to pay for the hotel didn't help. In her eyes I had rejected her in an undeniable and unacceptable way. A river of resentment came out of her, all in one sentence, and then we didn't talk for a year or so. When we did talk, and from then on, she hasn't expected the same daughter she did before. I didn't predict that the suggestion of a hotel would push her over the edge and be a relationship changer for us, but it ended up being the best thing that could've happened, from my point of view.
Mom management techniques I've learned:
- Don't talk about the past. Just don't go there.
- Pep talk yourself before interactions with her. Put on an invisible force field, bring a good luck charm, or do whatever you need to do to create mental distance between her words and your reactions. You can't control her, so it's best to bolster your defenses so you can control yourself. Consider it taking care of yourself.
- Come to conversations with her prepared with an idea of topics. Safe topics are things that have never sparked conflict between you before. These are useful both for your current events report and for quickly changing the topic before she has a chance to push your buttons.
- Don't let her push your buttons. She knows where they are (she installed them), and you can probably feel your hair starting to stand on end even before she strikes. Be the grown-up. Don't take the bait.
- Guilt trips only work if they work on you, and you're in control of that.
- Celebrate your successes with her. Even if only the first 3 minutes went well, that's something to celebrate. Take note of what works for you, and why. You can gradually expand your repertoire. Not suggesting that you'll want to spend more time with her, just that you can have better interactions with her during the time you're already investing. You may want to reward yourself for being nice to her and generally getting along. It's harder than it sounds.
- Set your boundaries firmly, and defend them fiercely. Consider it defining the parameters within which you can have a relationship with her that does nobody any harm. Because that's the goal, right?
Good luck. It does get easier.
posted by nadise at 8:47 PM on July 11, 2009 [5 favorites]
To change her expectations, it took the act of me setting a boundary with my mother that really hurt her. I asked her to stay in a hotel when she was coming to town... to visit my brother. Even offering to pay for the hotel didn't help. In her eyes I had rejected her in an undeniable and unacceptable way. A river of resentment came out of her, all in one sentence, and then we didn't talk for a year or so. When we did talk, and from then on, she hasn't expected the same daughter she did before. I didn't predict that the suggestion of a hotel would push her over the edge and be a relationship changer for us, but it ended up being the best thing that could've happened, from my point of view.
Mom management techniques I've learned:
- Don't talk about the past. Just don't go there.
- Pep talk yourself before interactions with her. Put on an invisible force field, bring a good luck charm, or do whatever you need to do to create mental distance between her words and your reactions. You can't control her, so it's best to bolster your defenses so you can control yourself. Consider it taking care of yourself.
- Come to conversations with her prepared with an idea of topics. Safe topics are things that have never sparked conflict between you before. These are useful both for your current events report and for quickly changing the topic before she has a chance to push your buttons.
- Don't let her push your buttons. She knows where they are (she installed them), and you can probably feel your hair starting to stand on end even before she strikes. Be the grown-up. Don't take the bait.
- Guilt trips only work if they work on you, and you're in control of that.
- Celebrate your successes with her. Even if only the first 3 minutes went well, that's something to celebrate. Take note of what works for you, and why. You can gradually expand your repertoire. Not suggesting that you'll want to spend more time with her, just that you can have better interactions with her during the time you're already investing. You may want to reward yourself for being nice to her and generally getting along. It's harder than it sounds.
- Set your boundaries firmly, and defend them fiercely. Consider it defining the parameters within which you can have a relationship with her that does nobody any harm. Because that's the goal, right?
Good luck. It does get easier.
posted by nadise at 8:47 PM on July 11, 2009 [5 favorites]
I recently cut ties with my mother. She was a hurtful and damaging force in my life. I cut ties with her through a letter. I explained what I wanted (no contact) and my reasons for it. My mother still tries to contact me but I do not accept her calls. I have had to realize that I cannot control her behavior, only my response to it. In the same way that I could not make her stop doing the things that were hurting me, I cannot stop her from trying to contact me. I cannot force her to accept this situation. I can accept that this is how our relationship (or lack thereof) is, I can control whether or not I respond to her and I can limit or cease my contact with her. This is about all that you can do. You can be ok with your decision and your response to the situation. You don't have to read the texts. You don't have to listen to voicemails. You don't have to read e-mails. These are all things that are firmly under your control. If you do not wish to have contact with your mother, then don't--not even passively.
posted by anansi at 8:48 PM on July 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by anansi at 8:48 PM on July 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
My primary goal is to get her to stop expecting results I will never be able to deliver. If any of you have endured similar situations, please let me know how you handled it.
You're in your 40s - you know how to sever a relationship. Would consider trying to find an alternative between where you are now and that?
You may ask- do I WANT to improve this relationship? By "improve," if you mean "rebuild and move toward a mother/child relationship that the average person would characterize as normal"- no, I really do not see that as my goal.
It shouldn't be your goal. You're not a child anymore, you want an adult - adult relationship. The context of mother - son or daughter will always be there but the child part should recede. I think the son or daughter has to drive that progress, since they are the one who has grown and changed, right? I don't think there are many parent capable of seeing their son or daughter as an autonomous adult without a little shove.
I agree with kookoobirdz's great post, and also St. Alia's; unless your mom did something evil, please make an effort to reach an understanding with her. Cutting her off, or the silent treatment, is extremely cruel.
To get to an adult - adult relationship means you would have to: give her some of your time, set her expectations, and be willing to drive the conversation (somewhat) into adult areas. Surely there are other things to talk about besides work or personal problems. It's okay to tell her tone down the advice or get exasperated when she forgets or is needy. There are probably books out there about how adults talk to their parents. Go ahead, anon, make the effort. It will almost certainly be good for her and maybe it'll be good for you, too.
(I had a similar conversation problem with my Mom, when she could still converse, because she is 44 years older than me. She was a history buff though so that helped, and also she led quite the adventurous life for her time).
Good luck anon, I hope everything works out for the best.
posted by txvtchick at 9:11 PM on July 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
You're in your 40s - you know how to sever a relationship. Would consider trying to find an alternative between where you are now and that?
You may ask- do I WANT to improve this relationship? By "improve," if you mean "rebuild and move toward a mother/child relationship that the average person would characterize as normal"- no, I really do not see that as my goal.
It shouldn't be your goal. You're not a child anymore, you want an adult - adult relationship. The context of mother - son or daughter will always be there but the child part should recede. I think the son or daughter has to drive that progress, since they are the one who has grown and changed, right? I don't think there are many parent capable of seeing their son or daughter as an autonomous adult without a little shove.
I agree with kookoobirdz's great post, and also St. Alia's; unless your mom did something evil, please make an effort to reach an understanding with her. Cutting her off, or the silent treatment, is extremely cruel.
To get to an adult - adult relationship means you would have to: give her some of your time, set her expectations, and be willing to drive the conversation (somewhat) into adult areas. Surely there are other things to talk about besides work or personal problems. It's okay to tell her tone down the advice or get exasperated when she forgets or is needy. There are probably books out there about how adults talk to their parents. Go ahead, anon, make the effort. It will almost certainly be good for her and maybe it'll be good for you, too.
(I had a similar conversation problem with my Mom, when she could still converse, because she is 44 years older than me. She was a history buff though so that helped, and also she led quite the adventurous life for her time).
Good luck anon, I hope everything works out for the best.
posted by txvtchick at 9:11 PM on July 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
I found it was helpful to realize you can change YOU, but you cannot change others. As much as I would like to change my mother, it won't happen. I limit contact to what is healthy for me. I will send an e-mail to her, but she really never gets any real info out of me. I keep it generic--weather or whatever, things I don't mind having her "forward" to god knows who!
I feel for you. Limit contact to what helps you keep your sanity. Limiting contact has saved mine.
Memail me if you want to chat.
posted by 6:1 at 9:43 PM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
I feel for you. Limit contact to what helps you keep your sanity. Limiting contact has saved mine.
Memail me if you want to chat.
posted by 6:1 at 9:43 PM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
I have the same issue/scenario with my father. I simply ignore him and his attempts at contact. Every once in a while I throw him a bone and call him. I think the best way to have minimal contact is at your time and choosing. I never pick up his calls. Only initiate. Also, I have kids. I have them call him and then leave the house so when he says is your Dad home my kids can credibly say "no". It placates him a little because he hears from the grandkids, but not from me. IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE!!
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:43 PM on July 11, 2009
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:43 PM on July 11, 2009
I'm a father of a 6-year-old son, and the thought that someday he wouldn't want to speak to me, that I would not know very much about his life, is perhaps the most desolate and terrifying thing I can think of. Perhaps that's just part of the insanity of parenthood, this sense of someone else's life being tied so deeply to one's own. But it is very hard to hear of a child just cutting all ties with a parent who wants to know about his/her life. Maybe I'll change over the years.
I think a parent who is continually cruel or neglectful, abusive or dangerous, has earned this kind of outcome. A parent who is crazy or irritating -- I don't know. I think we have deep obligations to one another. I would pray my son could forgive my craziness or irritating nature and still be my son. I would pray we could all forgive each other that way. Oy, what an awful world if we couldn't.
posted by argybarg at 11:30 PM on July 11, 2009 [11 favorites]
I think a parent who is continually cruel or neglectful, abusive or dangerous, has earned this kind of outcome. A parent who is crazy or irritating -- I don't know. I think we have deep obligations to one another. I would pray my son could forgive my craziness or irritating nature and still be my son. I would pray we could all forgive each other that way. Oy, what an awful world if we couldn't.
posted by argybarg at 11:30 PM on July 11, 2009 [11 favorites]
Argybarg, with all due respect, this is the opposite of what the OP asked for and very much the opposite of what she needs to hear. Her situation is what it is. I can understand how this would be sensitive to you as a parent of a young child, but your son is not the OP, and you are not her parent. Casting judgment on her for her feelings about her mother is not helpful and not sensitive.
I would pray that we could all stop judging each other and answer the questions asked without piling on more guilt to an OP who is already dealing with guilt.
posted by necessitas at 12:41 AM on July 12, 2009 [10 favorites]
I would pray that we could all stop judging each other and answer the questions asked without piling on more guilt to an OP who is already dealing with guilt.
posted by necessitas at 12:41 AM on July 12, 2009 [10 favorites]
My mom can make me (and my sisters) crazy like no other. She is difficult. She has never been evil, cruel, etc. I mostly grin and bear it, try to have adult conversations when she's being difficult.
I was leaving work on a Friday to see her, was saying the "have a good weekends" with a colleague, mentioned that I was going to see my mother. He said something like "Oh, that's good and it sounds like y'all have some fun things lined up to check out." I said I hope it's good, that she makes me crazy.
He said very quietly and calmly, "You probably make her crazy, too."
posted by ambient2 at 12:47 AM on July 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
I was leaving work on a Friday to see her, was saying the "have a good weekends" with a colleague, mentioned that I was going to see my mother. He said something like "Oh, that's good and it sounds like y'all have some fun things lined up to check out." I said I hope it's good, that she makes me crazy.
He said very quietly and calmly, "You probably make her crazy, too."
posted by ambient2 at 12:47 AM on July 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
But in general, you are the fruit of her womb. She literally made you. She carried you. She loves you in a way nobody else can, even if she's messed up in some way. You denying yourself to her is the cruelest thing you can do to her
First of all, the fruit of the womb business is ridiculous oversentimentalizing.
TSecondly, the OP is asking for help, not guilt trips. Go submit your sentiments to Hallmark if you don't have anything better to do. This is probably very painful for the OP and she's managed to put some semblance of a life together without involving her mother, which is probably very difficult.
posted by anniecat at 5:23 AM on July 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
First of all, the fruit of the womb business is ridiculous oversentimentalizing.
TSecondly, the OP is asking for help, not guilt trips. Go submit your sentiments to Hallmark if you don't have anything better to do. This is probably very painful for the OP and she's managed to put some semblance of a life together without involving her mother, which is probably very difficult.
posted by anniecat at 5:23 AM on July 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
anniecat, necessitas, the OP also asked, "Is there a default level of obligation just because she is my mom?"
You may not care for their answers, which are from a parent's perspective, but argybarg and kookoobirdz aren't the ones being judgmental.
posted by txvtchick at 6:32 AM on July 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
You may not care for their answers, which are from a parent's perspective, but argybarg and kookoobirdz aren't the ones being judgmental.
posted by txvtchick at 6:32 AM on July 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
unless your mom did something evil, please make an effort to reach an understanding with her. Cutting her off, or the silent treatment, is extremely cruel.
This just isn't true. It doesn't have to be evil. It just has to be a pattern of refusing to treat the adult child as an adult. If an adult daughter says, "For us to have a relationship consisting of more than birthday and holiday cards, I need you to stop doing X" and her mother continues to do the thing, it's reasonable for the daughter to limit contact. As long as the parent has been told "please stop," it's the parent making a decision about the relationship: she is saying "I value doing this thing you've asked me to stop doing more than I value having a functional relationship with my daughter." The behavior in question may not be evil, but it's also not something the OP or any daughter needs to welcome into her life over and over--and it's something that the mother is free to stop doing.
posted by Meg_Murry at 7:32 AM on July 12, 2009 [9 favorites]
This just isn't true. It doesn't have to be evil. It just has to be a pattern of refusing to treat the adult child as an adult. If an adult daughter says, "For us to have a relationship consisting of more than birthday and holiday cards, I need you to stop doing X" and her mother continues to do the thing, it's reasonable for the daughter to limit contact. As long as the parent has been told "please stop," it's the parent making a decision about the relationship: she is saying "I value doing this thing you've asked me to stop doing more than I value having a functional relationship with my daughter." The behavior in question may not be evil, but it's also not something the OP or any daughter needs to welcome into her life over and over--and it's something that the mother is free to stop doing.
posted by Meg_Murry at 7:32 AM on July 12, 2009 [9 favorites]
Well, after reading and re-reading your thread a couple of times, I had to sit and think for a while. Right now, I'm completely estranged from my mother (you can read about her here). It took me a long time to get it together to finally cut her off 100%. But I had my reasons - primarily my sanity and safety of my kids - and for now (and the foreseeable future), that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
But if it's just a matter of not having anything in common with her and she's a hassle to deal with, could you not just occasionally drop her a line or send her those flowers? Believe me, I've been through more than my share of parent drama. I've been on both sides of the fence, being both a parent (like Argybarg), and being a child of a crazy parent. And I have to say, that you are in a somewhat enviable position to extricate yourself from what you perceive to be an untenable relationship, yet still appease your mother by throwing her a bone -- whether a card, or a bouquet, or an email, or a picture -- every now and again.
She's not going to be around forever, and as stupid and unlikely as it sounds now, you will probably miss her someday. I know for all the grief and angst my mother causes me, I miss having her (or at least the idea of her) in my life.
I hope you find some sort of resolution. Best of luck to you.
posted by dancinglamb at 7:39 AM on July 12, 2009
But if it's just a matter of not having anything in common with her and she's a hassle to deal with, could you not just occasionally drop her a line or send her those flowers? Believe me, I've been through more than my share of parent drama. I've been on both sides of the fence, being both a parent (like Argybarg), and being a child of a crazy parent. And I have to say, that you are in a somewhat enviable position to extricate yourself from what you perceive to be an untenable relationship, yet still appease your mother by throwing her a bone -- whether a card, or a bouquet, or an email, or a picture -- every now and again.
She's not going to be around forever, and as stupid and unlikely as it sounds now, you will probably miss her someday. I know for all the grief and angst my mother causes me, I miss having her (or at least the idea of her) in my life.
I hope you find some sort of resolution. Best of luck to you.
posted by dancinglamb at 7:39 AM on July 12, 2009
What I want is for her to accept things as they are and to stop expecting my behavior to fit whatever model she has built up in her head, or is getting from TV, her friends etc. as to how kids are "supposed" to act.
I suspect this is the real crux of the issue. You want her to change, she wants you to change, and you're both banging your heads against opposite sides of the same brick wall. Whether or not she's disappointed in how you turned out or by your current relationship is outside of your control.
My primary goal is to get her to stop expecting results I will never be able to deliver.
This may never happen, and keep in mind that she could probably say the same thing about you. It sounds like your mom is feeling victimized here ("don't you care about me?" or "Why do you hate me?" - I get those plus "you think I'm a bad mother!!1!") and there's nowhere to go from there. This is not a criticism of your behavior, attitudes, feelings, or anything else, but it is something to keep in mind. She may be the type of person who just always feels put upon. She may have felt that way for longer than you've been alive. Or maybe she's learned that guilt trips and manipulation are successful parenting tools (WHAT IS IT with this, who taught people this and how is it ever a good idea?). None of this is your fault or responsibility and it's certainly nothing you can change. Arguments, blocking contact, and the gnashing of teeth (which are perfectly natural reactions for you) are probably just feeding the conflict. I think your only option is to accept that she won't ever react any differently than she does now and YOU have to rise above. If she chooses to be chronically disappointed, that's her business.
I think nadise has it right, especially the part about button installation. That's exactly the advice I would give, so I won't rehash it. Feel free to send me a message if you'd like to chat more.
posted by Eumachia L F at 8:02 AM on July 12, 2009
I suspect this is the real crux of the issue. You want her to change, she wants you to change, and you're both banging your heads against opposite sides of the same brick wall. Whether or not she's disappointed in how you turned out or by your current relationship is outside of your control.
My primary goal is to get her to stop expecting results I will never be able to deliver.
This may never happen, and keep in mind that she could probably say the same thing about you. It sounds like your mom is feeling victimized here ("don't you care about me?" or "Why do you hate me?" - I get those plus "you think I'm a bad mother!!1!") and there's nowhere to go from there. This is not a criticism of your behavior, attitudes, feelings, or anything else, but it is something to keep in mind. She may be the type of person who just always feels put upon. She may have felt that way for longer than you've been alive. Or maybe she's learned that guilt trips and manipulation are successful parenting tools (WHAT IS IT with this, who taught people this and how is it ever a good idea?). None of this is your fault or responsibility and it's certainly nothing you can change. Arguments, blocking contact, and the gnashing of teeth (which are perfectly natural reactions for you) are probably just feeding the conflict. I think your only option is to accept that she won't ever react any differently than she does now and YOU have to rise above. If she chooses to be chronically disappointed, that's her business.
I think nadise has it right, especially the part about button installation. That's exactly the advice I would give, so I won't rehash it. Feel free to send me a message if you'd like to chat more.
posted by Eumachia L F at 8:02 AM on July 12, 2009
i feel the same way as you. the backstory of my mother was simply that she never wanted to get married or have kids, but she did it as a way to redirect whatever crippling sense of obligation to to other that she has away from her parents and toward something else. in the eight years since her parents died and she's become "free" of any excuse to live her own life, she's been systematically dismantling the life she'd built with us.
for my part, i always knew she would do this. i always knew she didn't love us, that she hated being a mother. she wasn't cruel, but she was distant and indifferent, and i could tell she was just biding her time until her parents died. my mother never showed a sliver of interest in my life. we talk about the weather. she assuages her guilt over this--and i'm sure she feels terrible guilt to have raised a child she cannot muster any love for--she gives me bags and bags of junk she's bought at TJ Maxx that I give directly to Goodwill.
i have been keeping her at arm's length for a long time. i don't know if i love her or ever did. i am planning my wedding, and my future husband's mother is far more involved than she is.
two things have helped, although possibly only one is recommended.
1. i stopped mourning the mother i never had. she is frustrating enough, why add the pain of what could have been to the equation?
2. we had a fight and, in anger, she finally expressed many of the above things explicitly. this has given me ample enough reason to cut ties with her. i am dreading seeing her at a family wedding later this month, but for the most part, i feel so much happier.
posted by thinkingwoman at 8:04 AM on July 12, 2009
for my part, i always knew she would do this. i always knew she didn't love us, that she hated being a mother. she wasn't cruel, but she was distant and indifferent, and i could tell she was just biding her time until her parents died. my mother never showed a sliver of interest in my life. we talk about the weather. she assuages her guilt over this--and i'm sure she feels terrible guilt to have raised a child she cannot muster any love for--she gives me bags and bags of junk she's bought at TJ Maxx that I give directly to Goodwill.
i have been keeping her at arm's length for a long time. i don't know if i love her or ever did. i am planning my wedding, and my future husband's mother is far more involved than she is.
two things have helped, although possibly only one is recommended.
1. i stopped mourning the mother i never had. she is frustrating enough, why add the pain of what could have been to the equation?
2. we had a fight and, in anger, she finally expressed many of the above things explicitly. this has given me ample enough reason to cut ties with her. i am dreading seeing her at a family wedding later this month, but for the most part, i feel so much happier.
posted by thinkingwoman at 8:04 AM on July 12, 2009
It doesn't have to be evil. It just has to be a pattern of refusing to treat the adult child as an adult. If an adult daughter says, "For us to have a relationship consisting of more than birthday and holiday cards, I need you to stop doing X" and her mother continues to do the thing, it's reasonable for the daughter to limit contact.
Meg_Murray, that's a good point and I don't think it contradicts my advice. In your example, the adult daughter is making the effort, which is what I advised OP. From your example:
"For us to have a relationship consisting of more than birthday and holiday cards, I need you to stop doing X"
By saying this the daughter is driving a change in the relationship and forcing the mother to treat her as an autonomous adult. Most people have to do that with their parents at some point even if it doesn't get to the "for us to have a relationship" stage. She's setting appropriate expectations for her mother. She is also paying her mother the courtesy of clearly explaining what she is doing wrong.
This works both ways and it's okay for the Mom to set some conditions as well. It just doesn't sound like OP has ever had that conversation.
posted by txvtchick at 8:10 AM on July 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Meg_Murray, that's a good point and I don't think it contradicts my advice. In your example, the adult daughter is making the effort, which is what I advised OP. From your example:
"For us to have a relationship consisting of more than birthday and holiday cards, I need you to stop doing X"
By saying this the daughter is driving a change in the relationship and forcing the mother to treat her as an autonomous adult. Most people have to do that with their parents at some point even if it doesn't get to the "for us to have a relationship" stage. She's setting appropriate expectations for her mother. She is also paying her mother the courtesy of clearly explaining what she is doing wrong.
This works both ways and it's okay for the Mom to set some conditions as well. It just doesn't sound like OP has ever had that conversation.
posted by txvtchick at 8:10 AM on July 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
You may not care for their answers, which are from a parent's perspective, but argybarg and kookoobirdz aren't the ones being judgmental.
It is definitely judgmental to say what the OP wants is somehow not right by virtue of asking her/him to reconsider what she's asking for and saying that what she's/he's doing is cruel. She/he doesn't need to hear that. If, from a parent's perspective, they have anything valuable to offer, such as, "Well, this is the best way to say it," then they're answering the question. But all they're doing is putting their two cents in on the whole situation, imagining how hurt they'll be when their six year old unilaterally decides to sever contact in the future.
posted by anniecat at 8:15 AM on July 12, 2009
It is definitely judgmental to say what the OP wants is somehow not right by virtue of asking her/him to reconsider what she's asking for and saying that what she's/he's doing is cruel. She/he doesn't need to hear that. If, from a parent's perspective, they have anything valuable to offer, such as, "Well, this is the best way to say it," then they're answering the question. But all they're doing is putting their two cents in on the whole situation, imagining how hurt they'll be when their six year old unilaterally decides to sever contact in the future.
posted by anniecat at 8:15 AM on July 12, 2009
Mod note: This is a followup from anonymous.
I posted this, and wanted to acknowledge a superior reply and one that really helped me. The one posted by necessitas gave such great insight, I had to write to you.posted by cortex (staff) at 8:51 AM on July 12, 2009
Also, in spite of the seeming conflict between his post and the one made by necesitas, argybarg's post also hit home.
I do have a child and part of my struggle is the exact comment he made: "... the thought that someday [my son] wouldn't want to speak to me, that I would not know very much about his life, is perhaps the most desolate and terrifying thing I can think of. "
It IS a desolate and terrifying thought. I fear that I am teaching my child that it will someday be OK to treat me the way I am now treating my mom. THIS is one reason I want to find some way to manage the relationship within a framework I can handle. If that is a selfish reason, so be it. At least it's making me try for a change this late in the game. Maybe it's because my child is the same age now that I was when my mom screwed everything up for me.
I have a difficult relationship with my mom, due to her alcoholism, verbal and emotional abusiveness and utter narcissism. She lives less than a mile away from me, and I can only bring myself to see her a few times a year.
What you need to realize is that she's never going to change. All you can do is do the right thing for you and build strong boundaries that you can defend. I find that the best thing for me is to make it clear to her that I will not tolerate guilt trips or abuse. I do not return histrionic phone calls, I will not bail her out of her imagined emergencies. I will, however, come to see her from time to time for no more than 2 hours - eat a little food, have a beer and catch up on the news. This is what I'm willing to do (all that I am able to do without becoming utterly depressed) and after years of kvetching, she has accepted it (usually).
Do what is right for you. If a few hours of tense conversation saves you from 3 months of guilt, then by all means, don't stand on principle - go and see her! These relationships are never going to be tidy and they're always going to hurt, but you can mitigate the pain by doing what you can do to not cause her undue suffering without hurting yourself. You will find the correct balance with time and a lot of self monitoring. Good Luck and be kind to yourself.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:50 PM on July 12, 2009
What you need to realize is that she's never going to change. All you can do is do the right thing for you and build strong boundaries that you can defend. I find that the best thing for me is to make it clear to her that I will not tolerate guilt trips or abuse. I do not return histrionic phone calls, I will not bail her out of her imagined emergencies. I will, however, come to see her from time to time for no more than 2 hours - eat a little food, have a beer and catch up on the news. This is what I'm willing to do (all that I am able to do without becoming utterly depressed) and after years of kvetching, she has accepted it (usually).
Do what is right for you. If a few hours of tense conversation saves you from 3 months of guilt, then by all means, don't stand on principle - go and see her! These relationships are never going to be tidy and they're always going to hurt, but you can mitigate the pain by doing what you can do to not cause her undue suffering without hurting yourself. You will find the correct balance with time and a lot of self monitoring. Good Luck and be kind to yourself.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:50 PM on July 12, 2009
Coming a little late to this, but I've been thinking on this for a while and, oddly, concerned that MY Mom would somehow find what I'd written here and give me a hard time about it was one of the things keeping me from commenting. I don't know if she follows me on MetaFilter.
I have a similar Mom. Not (really) abusive, not dangerous, just totally unable to get outside her own head and see other people as real people. I don't know if it's narcissism or what, but it's been this way since I was a teenager, and problematic in a few ways
- However much I contact her is never enough. When she gets upset with me she unleashes the "this is every bad thing you've ever done..." tirade, going back to perceived crappy things that I'd done to her when I was in high school.
- Note the "to her" part, my Mom takes everything I do that she can see affecting her as something I personally actively did to her.
- She is anxious and that anxiety spills over into both her hyper-surveillance of me [I just roll with it] and my sister [my mom knew my sister's private Craigsist handle for months before telling ehr that she'd been reading all her posts] as well as anything we possibly do together making every hang-out time, every trip, every interaction into a flurry of worry and possibly recriminations
- She is unable to process negative information so while she remembers bad things I did to her, she forgets anything she may have done to me, making actually talking out these things an exercise in futility. She denies ever hitting me [something that didn't happen often but I'm quite sure it happened], denied the years of horribleness that I endured as a child when she lived with my father, denies the dysfunction that I grew up in. She thinks she was a good parent and I was a bad kid.
So, after the last big event a few years ago when she came to visit me ostensibly to help cheer me up after the demise of my long term relationship and wound up arguing with me, upsetting me, and then threatening to leave when I was upset and crying on the couch (the one time I've ever gotten an apology from her in recent memory) I decided that this was bullshit and that I wasn't going to negotiate with her anymore about how much contact is okay with her wheedling for more and me desiring none. I do feel that I have an obligation to her, as my Mom and I feel moreso that I have an obligation to my sister to not have to be the go-between if I've cut off contact. Different people feel differently about these things, but this is how I feel.
So, I keep in contact in ways that are asynchronous, so she knows she is in my thoughts but so that I'm not trapped in marathon complainy phone calls that sometimes turn sour. I send postcards to her from my frequent travels. I comment on her flickr photos. I haven't blocked her from facebook or twitter but I refuse to engage with her if she acts weird or inappropriate or tried to extract more information than whatever I've offered. I call her on Mother's Day and her birthday. If I'm home and feeling extra grounded I might email her and tell her to feel free to call. I won't talk to her about my father, my boyfriend [except in general terms], my sister and her boyfriend or anything that turns into dishy gossip. If she wants to talk to me about her friends or her life or her stuff, I'll happily listen but I won't pretend that I don't think she's being weird ["you know mom you always complain about your friends.... maybe you should hang out with people you like?"] I end the call if she starts in with the "You are always like this *complain complain*" stuff.
And part of doing this was forgiving her and forgiving myself. I don't think she can help it. I don't think she can change. I dont think I can help it. I'm not willing to change more than I have. I think about the parable of the monks and the beautiful lady and remind myself that what I need to do is, mostly, to let this go. I see my Mom when I see her -- sometimes on holidays, sometimes when I visit my sister who lives nearby -- and I endure it like something else I'm not that psyched about, try to get the best out of it, and give the best to it and then leave it behind. I don't want to be "that woman who doesn't get along with her mom" I'd much rather be "that woman who has a cordial but distant relationship with her mom that makes her happy" and that's more or less what I have.
posted by jessamyn at 12:55 PM on July 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
I have a similar Mom. Not (really) abusive, not dangerous, just totally unable to get outside her own head and see other people as real people. I don't know if it's narcissism or what, but it's been this way since I was a teenager, and problematic in a few ways
- However much I contact her is never enough. When she gets upset with me she unleashes the "this is every bad thing you've ever done..." tirade, going back to perceived crappy things that I'd done to her when I was in high school.
- Note the "to her" part, my Mom takes everything I do that she can see affecting her as something I personally actively did to her.
- She is anxious and that anxiety spills over into both her hyper-surveillance of me [I just roll with it] and my sister [my mom knew my sister's private Craigsist handle for months before telling ehr that she'd been reading all her posts] as well as anything we possibly do together making every hang-out time, every trip, every interaction into a flurry of worry and possibly recriminations
- She is unable to process negative information so while she remembers bad things I did to her, she forgets anything she may have done to me, making actually talking out these things an exercise in futility. She denies ever hitting me [something that didn't happen often but I'm quite sure it happened], denied the years of horribleness that I endured as a child when she lived with my father, denies the dysfunction that I grew up in. She thinks she was a good parent and I was a bad kid.
So, after the last big event a few years ago when she came to visit me ostensibly to help cheer me up after the demise of my long term relationship and wound up arguing with me, upsetting me, and then threatening to leave when I was upset and crying on the couch (the one time I've ever gotten an apology from her in recent memory) I decided that this was bullshit and that I wasn't going to negotiate with her anymore about how much contact is okay with her wheedling for more and me desiring none. I do feel that I have an obligation to her, as my Mom and I feel moreso that I have an obligation to my sister to not have to be the go-between if I've cut off contact. Different people feel differently about these things, but this is how I feel.
So, I keep in contact in ways that are asynchronous, so she knows she is in my thoughts but so that I'm not trapped in marathon complainy phone calls that sometimes turn sour. I send postcards to her from my frequent travels. I comment on her flickr photos. I haven't blocked her from facebook or twitter but I refuse to engage with her if she acts weird or inappropriate or tried to extract more information than whatever I've offered. I call her on Mother's Day and her birthday. If I'm home and feeling extra grounded I might email her and tell her to feel free to call. I won't talk to her about my father, my boyfriend [except in general terms], my sister and her boyfriend or anything that turns into dishy gossip. If she wants to talk to me about her friends or her life or her stuff, I'll happily listen but I won't pretend that I don't think she's being weird ["you know mom you always complain about your friends.... maybe you should hang out with people you like?"] I end the call if she starts in with the "You are always like this *complain complain*" stuff.
And part of doing this was forgiving her and forgiving myself. I don't think she can help it. I don't think she can change. I dont think I can help it. I'm not willing to change more than I have. I think about the parable of the monks and the beautiful lady and remind myself that what I need to do is, mostly, to let this go. I see my Mom when I see her -- sometimes on holidays, sometimes when I visit my sister who lives nearby -- and I endure it like something else I'm not that psyched about, try to get the best out of it, and give the best to it and then leave it behind. I don't want to be "that woman who doesn't get along with her mom" I'd much rather be "that woman who has a cordial but distant relationship with her mom that makes her happy" and that's more or less what I have.
posted by jessamyn at 12:55 PM on July 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Tell her that, flat out and explicitly and repeat as needed until you're tired of repeating yourself. Otherwise, stop fretting over over it, based on what you've posted, it's her issue and all you can do is state what you will and won't do and leave it her to deal with that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:43 PM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]