Thoughtcrime in Marriage: Help Needed
April 13, 2009 9:30 AM Subscribe
Over the past week I have had the worst nights with my wife I can remember in a long time. I can't remember a time in the past ten years I have felt so angry and misunderstood. I am hoping someone can give me some pointers. Long story inside and probably NSFW.
My wife of a little less than a year is bisexual. I have known that for our entire relationship. It doesn't bother my security in our relationship. She explored it two times that I can recall while dating me. Once with a college friend that resulted in oral sex and once she "hooked up" on a single occasion with a girl while out one evening three or four years ago.
She has never been with another man in the eight plus years we have been dating although she did kiss a man in a bar in Los Angeles and made out with another man and woman at a Hollywood party during the same trip. As far as I know that was it.
She also has a curiosity about fetishism, BDSM and associated kinks.
I have been very upfront with her about the role of sex and fidelity in our relationship. I told her I would never limit her experiences as long as they didn't interfere with our emotional life and that she should have experiences because I don't really believe in monogamy although I am monogamous to her. I guess you could call it a door-half-open-open-relationship.
For the record, I have never cheated on her. I have had no sexual or emotional contact with another woman in the entire time I have known her.
Recently, she met a woman as a pansexual event in March. They hit it off and I had a chance to meet her because my wife called me to meet her at the event. They hung out a few weeks after the event. That resulted in my wife “staying over” at this woman’s apartment. Nothing sexual happened.
A week ago I went with my wife, her new friend and the new friend’s ex-boyfriend to a local fundraiser. I had my first real discussions with the woman and did like her. She seems to be at a similar level of experience to my wife and they seem to be natural friends. We ended our time at the fundraiser with my wife and this woman kissing near the exits. The decision was made to all go back to our house.
We arrived back at my house and all ended up in the bedroom thanks to some adult beverages and did some fully clothed adult things where I had peripheral fully clothed contact with this other woman in a sort of bondage scene. My wife had a similar scene with the ex-boyfriend. There was zero under clothes contact except between my wife and the other woman. Things got a little hot and heavy, me and the ex-boyfriend left and my wife and this woman had sex. After, the woman left with her ex and headed home.
My wife and I talked about the event and seemed cool with it. It wasn’t until the next day things started to fall apart. In the course of conversation I gleaned that the possibility of me being in involved in a scenario with my wife and this other woman may occur. I asked her to confirm that, she said yes. I then asked what my roll would be. I was told what conditions I would have to work under and my wife stated emphatically no sex with the other woman. She asked me if I was fine with that. I turned the question back at her a bit and asked her if she was really ok with that or if I should know anything else.
There went the hydrogen bomb.
She lost it and inferred that I want to have sex with this other woman. I made the mistake of telling her I would if that is what she wanted me to do but that I was also fine with the conditions she placed on any contact with her and another woman.
She got a look like I punched her because apparently, even with the sexual freedom I give her, the idea of me even considering sex with another woman, even in fantasies where my wife is involved is cheating. Apparently I have broken some irreversible emotional trust in merely stating I am human and sometimes think about other people and would like to know the rules if I get involved in a scenario with her and her new girlfriend. I keep going back to repeating the same mantra over and over to try and calm her.
1. I would never betray our trust.
2. I would follow any conditions she gives me in regards to a group situation.
3. It would change nothing in my mind about our relationship.
I am sorry to ramble for so long to get to the point but, what do I do now? I have given her all the freedom in the world without condition but I feel like even my thoughts are damning me. Is this just an over-developed sense of insecurity on her part? Is it a selfishness that is deeper or is it something that should serve as a warning to the possible longevity of our marriage considering she stated she should leave me for this? Did I do something wrong?
I am at a loss.
My wife of a little less than a year is bisexual. I have known that for our entire relationship. It doesn't bother my security in our relationship. She explored it two times that I can recall while dating me. Once with a college friend that resulted in oral sex and once she "hooked up" on a single occasion with a girl while out one evening three or four years ago.
She has never been with another man in the eight plus years we have been dating although she did kiss a man in a bar in Los Angeles and made out with another man and woman at a Hollywood party during the same trip. As far as I know that was it.
She also has a curiosity about fetishism, BDSM and associated kinks.
I have been very upfront with her about the role of sex and fidelity in our relationship. I told her I would never limit her experiences as long as they didn't interfere with our emotional life and that she should have experiences because I don't really believe in monogamy although I am monogamous to her. I guess you could call it a door-half-open-open-relationship.
For the record, I have never cheated on her. I have had no sexual or emotional contact with another woman in the entire time I have known her.
Recently, she met a woman as a pansexual event in March. They hit it off and I had a chance to meet her because my wife called me to meet her at the event. They hung out a few weeks after the event. That resulted in my wife “staying over” at this woman’s apartment. Nothing sexual happened.
A week ago I went with my wife, her new friend and the new friend’s ex-boyfriend to a local fundraiser. I had my first real discussions with the woman and did like her. She seems to be at a similar level of experience to my wife and they seem to be natural friends. We ended our time at the fundraiser with my wife and this woman kissing near the exits. The decision was made to all go back to our house.
We arrived back at my house and all ended up in the bedroom thanks to some adult beverages and did some fully clothed adult things where I had peripheral fully clothed contact with this other woman in a sort of bondage scene. My wife had a similar scene with the ex-boyfriend. There was zero under clothes contact except between my wife and the other woman. Things got a little hot and heavy, me and the ex-boyfriend left and my wife and this woman had sex. After, the woman left with her ex and headed home.
My wife and I talked about the event and seemed cool with it. It wasn’t until the next day things started to fall apart. In the course of conversation I gleaned that the possibility of me being in involved in a scenario with my wife and this other woman may occur. I asked her to confirm that, she said yes. I then asked what my roll would be. I was told what conditions I would have to work under and my wife stated emphatically no sex with the other woman. She asked me if I was fine with that. I turned the question back at her a bit and asked her if she was really ok with that or if I should know anything else.
There went the hydrogen bomb.
She lost it and inferred that I want to have sex with this other woman. I made the mistake of telling her I would if that is what she wanted me to do but that I was also fine with the conditions she placed on any contact with her and another woman.
She got a look like I punched her because apparently, even with the sexual freedom I give her, the idea of me even considering sex with another woman, even in fantasies where my wife is involved is cheating. Apparently I have broken some irreversible emotional trust in merely stating I am human and sometimes think about other people and would like to know the rules if I get involved in a scenario with her and her new girlfriend. I keep going back to repeating the same mantra over and over to try and calm her.
1. I would never betray our trust.
2. I would follow any conditions she gives me in regards to a group situation.
3. It would change nothing in my mind about our relationship.
I am sorry to ramble for so long to get to the point but, what do I do now? I have given her all the freedom in the world without condition but I feel like even my thoughts are damning me. Is this just an over-developed sense of insecurity on her part? Is it a selfishness that is deeper or is it something that should serve as a warning to the possible longevity of our marriage considering she stated she should leave me for this? Did I do something wrong?
I am at a loss.
You need to cut the knot rather than attempt to untie it. If you and your wife want a monogamous relationship, have one. If you want a relationship where other people are involved, have one. You apparently don't enjoy being a doormat, so don't be one. Frankly, the idea of your wife not accomodating your passive, slight interest in this other woman in view of your behavior toward her is puzzling and hypocritical. Your wife seems to be under the impression that you're some sort of submissive or cuckold when you don't want to be. I would clarify that immediately, and if it doesn't work I think you should find somebody that respects you as an equal.
All that said, this is way beyond my knowledge about this sort of thing. I would have been out the door by paragraph three.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 9:40 AM on April 13, 2009 [5 favorites]
All that said, this is way beyond my knowledge about this sort of thing. I would have been out the door by paragraph three.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 9:40 AM on April 13, 2009 [5 favorites]
It sounds to me like you have a relationship boss and not a relationship partner.
Worrying about the trouble that springs from this well without addressing the problem with the well itself will only result in more trouble.
posted by paisley henosis at 9:40 AM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
Worrying about the trouble that springs from this well without addressing the problem with the well itself will only result in more trouble.
posted by paisley henosis at 9:40 AM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
Another question..... She can hook up and even spend the night with pretty much anyone, but you're not even allowed the thought of another woman?
Is she being selfish? Oh, yeah! Incredibly selfish!
posted by SoftSummerBreeze at 9:42 AM on April 13, 2009 [6 favorites]
Is she being selfish? Oh, yeah! Incredibly selfish!
posted by SoftSummerBreeze at 9:42 AM on April 13, 2009 [6 favorites]
Doesn't sound like a very healthy marriage to begin with. DTMFA and get out while you're still young.
posted by All.star at 9:42 AM on April 13, 2009
posted by All.star at 9:42 AM on April 13, 2009
Best answer: I don't think you did anything wrong and I think it's a bit selfish for her to blow up at you over it. She seriously said she should leave you because of this? I'm hoping she just hasn't seriously thought about you having sex with someone else before, and it was just said in a fit of insecurity.
Some people are monogamous because they don't really want to have sex with anyone else, and some couples agree on monogamy because while they may want to be with other people, they can't stand the idea of their spouse with other people. In other words, they know it's unfair to hold their spouse to different standards. Your wife hasn't had to seriously deal with this yet because she's gotten to have an open relationship without worrying about her own jealousy. Even if you agreed on an open relationship for both of you, you hadn't pursued anything before now so she hasn't had to confront the "downside" for her yet. In other words, I think this is something she was going to have to come to terms with regardless of when it happened, and it probably feels even more unfair to you now that it's years down the line. You probably feel like she should have dealt with it when you made the agreement and been over it by now. You're not wrong in that regard. I'm sure you can understand how the consequences of it might not have felt "real" to her until now, though, so you get to deal with it now rather than years ago. Sucks, yeah.
I would give her a week or two. It's probably just stinging her right now, but if she's fair and rational she'll get over it. This is what she would have had to done if she'd confronted it years ago. If she keeps being irrational after that and keeps making you out to be the bad guy, it's a bigger problem.
posted by Nattie at 9:51 AM on April 13, 2009 [12 favorites]
Some people are monogamous because they don't really want to have sex with anyone else, and some couples agree on monogamy because while they may want to be with other people, they can't stand the idea of their spouse with other people. In other words, they know it's unfair to hold their spouse to different standards. Your wife hasn't had to seriously deal with this yet because she's gotten to have an open relationship without worrying about her own jealousy. Even if you agreed on an open relationship for both of you, you hadn't pursued anything before now so she hasn't had to confront the "downside" for her yet. In other words, I think this is something she was going to have to come to terms with regardless of when it happened, and it probably feels even more unfair to you now that it's years down the line. You probably feel like she should have dealt with it when you made the agreement and been over it by now. You're not wrong in that regard. I'm sure you can understand how the consequences of it might not have felt "real" to her until now, though, so you get to deal with it now rather than years ago. Sucks, yeah.
I would give her a week or two. It's probably just stinging her right now, but if she's fair and rational she'll get over it. This is what she would have had to done if she'd confronted it years ago. If she keeps being irrational after that and keeps making you out to be the bad guy, it's a bigger problem.
posted by Nattie at 9:51 AM on April 13, 2009 [12 favorites]
So she can do whatever she wants but if you have a thought or fantasy you get in trouble? Everyone has fantasies. It is human nature. Ask her if she has fantasies. I dated someone like this.. Once. I liked her a lot but in the end I couldn't stand that she could kiss and do things with other women but I couldn't. These double standard Bi-girls are freaking hotter than all hell but geez the drama and "do as I say not as I do" values drive me insane. All.star said it best, get out while you're still young.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 9:58 AM on April 13, 2009
posted by Mastercheddaar at 9:58 AM on April 13, 2009
This is a bad scene for you, and you have not done anything to warrant an outburst of that nature or magnitude. In my considerable, but individual, experience what you need is probably two things: (1) Your wife probably needs to see a psychiatrist who can help her work through whatever considerable issues have led her to act towards you in unhealthy, borderline abusive, ways. (2) You both need to see a marriage counselor, who can help you reconcile the perceived disparities in your relationship and help you yourself see your contributing role in them (whatever that may be). That's what you want to do if you want the marriage to survive and grow. Maybe you don't, but that is not going to be a decision you make in the next few days, at least you shouldn't.
One thing I would like to mention is that the level of denial-of-self that I'm reading in between the lines of your text is pretty high. It sounds like you are putting your own interests, desire, and needs aside because you are afraid your wife can't deal with them, which as it turns out is true. I don't think you will be able to move forward regardless of the means you choose if that remains.
posted by mrmojoflying at 10:04 AM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
One thing I would like to mention is that the level of denial-of-self that I'm reading in between the lines of your text is pretty high. It sounds like you are putting your own interests, desire, and needs aside because you are afraid your wife can't deal with them, which as it turns out is true. I don't think you will be able to move forward regardless of the means you choose if that remains.
posted by mrmojoflying at 10:04 AM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
Best answer: It sounds like you were having this discussion at the tail end of a few big hairy experiences. Group sex is intense and complicated. Bondage is intense and complicated. Sleeping with someone new is intense and complicated. For a lot of people, sleeping with anyone of the same sex ever is intense and complicated. And all of that goes double or triple when you're trying stuff for the first time.
I'm guessing your wife is going through some pretty... well, intense and complicated feelings right now. She may well not be aware of all of them, and she clearly doesn't know how to handle all of them. But given what she's just been through, I think it's a safe bet that she's not being 100% calm and clear. Yes, of course "I fuck other women, you don't even think about anyone else" is a double standard. But I doubt it's her carefully-reasoned plan for the rest of your relationship. More likely, she's just conflicted and scared.
Talk to her. Find out what's on her mind. Give her a chance to talk through some of the scary shit. And then take it from there. You guys might decide that some of the stuff you did last night is too upsetting and you want to stop doing it. (Hint: this is almost certainly the safest option, although it might not be the most exciting.) You might decide that you want to keep doing it, but with different rules or better communication. You might put a lid on it for now and see how you feel in a few months or a year.
And, yeah, you might decide it's not going to work out. I'm not telling you to be a doormat, and if there's really no way for you to get what you need or speak honestly without incurring anger and resentment, then yeah, you need to get out. But if you want to make things work, you may as well talk to her before you decide that your marriage is doomed.
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:05 AM on April 13, 2009 [10 favorites]
I'm guessing your wife is going through some pretty... well, intense and complicated feelings right now. She may well not be aware of all of them, and she clearly doesn't know how to handle all of them. But given what she's just been through, I think it's a safe bet that she's not being 100% calm and clear. Yes, of course "I fuck other women, you don't even think about anyone else" is a double standard. But I doubt it's her carefully-reasoned plan for the rest of your relationship. More likely, she's just conflicted and scared.
Talk to her. Find out what's on her mind. Give her a chance to talk through some of the scary shit. And then take it from there. You guys might decide that some of the stuff you did last night is too upsetting and you want to stop doing it. (Hint: this is almost certainly the safest option, although it might not be the most exciting.) You might decide that you want to keep doing it, but with different rules or better communication. You might put a lid on it for now and see how you feel in a few months or a year.
And, yeah, you might decide it's not going to work out. I'm not telling you to be a doormat, and if there's really no way for you to get what you need or speak honestly without incurring anger and resentment, then yeah, you need to get out. But if you want to make things work, you may as well talk to her before you decide that your marriage is doomed.
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:05 AM on April 13, 2009 [10 favorites]
Your wife has built a little fort around herself with a revolving door that only she can pass through.
Basically you've allowed her to have unprecedented physical freedom to do whatever she wants.* At the same time you've opted out of such an arrangement for yourself. Your wife, for whatever reason, values your fidelity and is upset that you are possibly becoming more open to the same experiences that she enjoys.
This may revel a couple of things:
- Your wife does things that she doesn't want you doing. She's doing it guilt-free now, but the idea of you engaging in the same behavior actually has the effect of holding a mirror to her actions... and she doesn't want to see that.
- Your wife probably needs your steady reliability to enable her own feelings of freedom. If you start getting freaky it threatens her feelings of permanence.
- Your wife holds you to a higher standard than she holds herself. That's not automatically hypocritical - perhaps your wife has low self esteem and truly thinks you're a better person than she is. To see you "come down to her level" may erode that illusion.
Not sure what to tell you to do. Couple's counseling?
*Though you clarifying early on that she hasn't had sex - that you know of - with other men, points to a line you hope she wouldn't cross: banging other guys. For some reason this is a common guy trope. It's fine for our wives and girlfriends to roll around with other women, but having a penis in the frame is a no-no.
posted by wfrgms at 10:05 AM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
Basically you've allowed her to have unprecedented physical freedom to do whatever she wants.* At the same time you've opted out of such an arrangement for yourself. Your wife, for whatever reason, values your fidelity and is upset that you are possibly becoming more open to the same experiences that she enjoys.
This may revel a couple of things:
- Your wife does things that she doesn't want you doing. She's doing it guilt-free now, but the idea of you engaging in the same behavior actually has the effect of holding a mirror to her actions... and she doesn't want to see that.
- Your wife probably needs your steady reliability to enable her own feelings of freedom. If you start getting freaky it threatens her feelings of permanence.
- Your wife holds you to a higher standard than she holds herself. That's not automatically hypocritical - perhaps your wife has low self esteem and truly thinks you're a better person than she is. To see you "come down to her level" may erode that illusion.
Not sure what to tell you to do. Couple's counseling?
*Though you clarifying early on that she hasn't had sex - that you know of - with other men, points to a line you hope she wouldn't cross: banging other guys. For some reason this is a common guy trope. It's fine for our wives and girlfriends to roll around with other women, but having a penis in the frame is a no-no.
posted by wfrgms at 10:05 AM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
Meh, it sounds like it's time to fish or cut bait with this whole monogamy thing -- nothing poisons a relationship like inequality. In this situation, I'd probably insist that we're equals in the ability to stray -- either both get to fuck around or nobody does.
posted by paultopia at 10:06 AM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by paultopia at 10:06 AM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
My guess is that you've been so permissive and accommodating for so long that she just has no idea what to think when you actually do express your own desires. She's used to having all the control in the sexual arena. In her world, the bottom dropped out of that when she realized that hey, you are a full person with your own wants and needs, and she reacted quite irrationally.
Just stand strong - you love her, you don't want to do anything to damage your relationship, but you're not going to be guilted by this, because you didn't do anything wrong. Repeat, repeat, repeat, and stay as calm as humanly possible. Take a walk if you're going to raise your voice. Go somewhere else for the night if you have to. If you're the voice of calm and reason, she'll eventually see that she's being shrill and reactionary. Or she won't, in which case you're seeing how the rest of your marriage is going to play out.
My point - sigh, I haven't had enough caffeine yet - is that it's very important not to concede the point that you've done something wrong. Whether or not either of you have sex with this woman or any other is immaterial; you are not wrong for having fleeting thoughts of it and you will not allow yourself to be controlled in that way.
posted by desjardins at 10:07 AM on April 13, 2009 [9 favorites]
Just stand strong - you love her, you don't want to do anything to damage your relationship, but you're not going to be guilted by this, because you didn't do anything wrong. Repeat, repeat, repeat, and stay as calm as humanly possible. Take a walk if you're going to raise your voice. Go somewhere else for the night if you have to. If you're the voice of calm and reason, she'll eventually see that she's being shrill and reactionary. Or she won't, in which case you're seeing how the rest of your marriage is going to play out.
My point - sigh, I haven't had enough caffeine yet - is that it's very important not to concede the point that you've done something wrong. Whether or not either of you have sex with this woman or any other is immaterial; you are not wrong for having fleeting thoughts of it and you will not allow yourself to be controlled in that way.
posted by desjardins at 10:07 AM on April 13, 2009 [9 favorites]
Also, yes to marriage counseling for both of you, yes to therapy for your wife if she wants it, and if you want a hand dealing with your feelings about this stuff, you've got every right to see a therapist too. (I'm not blaming you for what happened, and I'm not calling you crazy, but totally innocent sane people who wander into messy situations can often use help sorting out what to do next.)
Professional help is awesome. Get some!
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:08 AM on April 13, 2009
Professional help is awesome. Get some!
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:08 AM on April 13, 2009
One rule for her and another rule for you is fine, if you're both OK with it. You obviously aren't OK with it (which I totally agree with, BTW).
Unless you went into this relationship knowing that the above situation was the case, she needs to deal with the fact that you want to and actually may screw around, just like she can.
the idea of me even considering sex with another woman, even in fantasies where my wife is involved is cheating.
Umm, hypocritical much? This woman wants to have her cake and eat it, but wants you to leave your cake on the plate where she can keep an eye on it. Run away, especially given that she knows you don't really believe in monogamy.
posted by Solomon at 10:12 AM on April 13, 2009
Unless you went into this relationship knowing that the above situation was the case, she needs to deal with the fact that you want to and actually may screw around, just like she can.
the idea of me even considering sex with another woman, even in fantasies where my wife is involved is cheating.
Umm, hypocritical much? This woman wants to have her cake and eat it, but wants you to leave your cake on the plate where she can keep an eye on it. Run away, especially given that she knows you don't really believe in monogamy.
posted by Solomon at 10:12 AM on April 13, 2009
Is this just an over-developed sense of insecurity on her part?
Yes.
Is it a selfishness that is deeper or is it something that should serve as a warning to the possible longevity of our marriage considering she stated she should leave me for this?
Who knows? I think it will take a lot of calm, mature conversation between the two of you to figure it out. It is, however, extremely unreasonable and childish of her to threaten to leave you over this.
Did I do something wrong?
No, not at all.
She has a pretty sweet deal here. She gets, what seems like, carte blanche to engage in whatever sexual behavior she wants, with whomever she wants. It doesn't even sound like you're particularly nosy about it--she only hasn't gone any farther with a man than kissing "as far as you know." I'm not really sure if you're allowing this solely because she's bi/kinky--you do know that even bisexuals can be totally monogamous, right? That those myths about our insatiable sexual hungers are just myths, right? I hope so. Just making sure.
I do wonder if you're really, genuinely satisfied with the way things are. Situations that are sexually open on one end might work for some couples, but frankly, I've never met any. In real life, it seems to lead, inevitably, to jealousy over one partner's sexual freedom. I know that I would feel put off by the whole thing. Even if you're heterosexual, if you value sexual freedom and exploration so deeply that you'd encourage it in your spouse, I would think that it might be an important part of your life for yourself, too.
I'm also curious about her relationship with this new woman. The past encounters sound purely sexual, but this one sounds like it could have an emotional component--the (supposedly) chaste sleepovers, the natural friendship. It's possible that she's not insecure or jealous about you sleeping with another woman, but with you sleeping with this woman, who (perhaps) she's starting another relationship with. Are you comfortable with the idea of your wife engaging with other people emotionally and romantically, not just sexually?
I think the two of you have a lot of talking to do. What are your needs and desires in this situation? What reassurances do you need? You haven't talked about them here, and they're a part of this equation, too. Polyamory of any form takes a good deal of negotiation, trust, and honesty. Good luck.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:13 AM on April 13, 2009 [5 favorites]
Yes.
Is it a selfishness that is deeper or is it something that should serve as a warning to the possible longevity of our marriage considering she stated she should leave me for this?
Who knows? I think it will take a lot of calm, mature conversation between the two of you to figure it out. It is, however, extremely unreasonable and childish of her to threaten to leave you over this.
Did I do something wrong?
No, not at all.
She has a pretty sweet deal here. She gets, what seems like, carte blanche to engage in whatever sexual behavior she wants, with whomever she wants. It doesn't even sound like you're particularly nosy about it--she only hasn't gone any farther with a man than kissing "as far as you know." I'm not really sure if you're allowing this solely because she's bi/kinky--you do know that even bisexuals can be totally monogamous, right? That those myths about our insatiable sexual hungers are just myths, right? I hope so. Just making sure.
I do wonder if you're really, genuinely satisfied with the way things are. Situations that are sexually open on one end might work for some couples, but frankly, I've never met any. In real life, it seems to lead, inevitably, to jealousy over one partner's sexual freedom. I know that I would feel put off by the whole thing. Even if you're heterosexual, if you value sexual freedom and exploration so deeply that you'd encourage it in your spouse, I would think that it might be an important part of your life for yourself, too.
I'm also curious about her relationship with this new woman. The past encounters sound purely sexual, but this one sounds like it could have an emotional component--the (supposedly) chaste sleepovers, the natural friendship. It's possible that she's not insecure or jealous about you sleeping with another woman, but with you sleeping with this woman, who (perhaps) she's starting another relationship with. Are you comfortable with the idea of your wife engaging with other people emotionally and romantically, not just sexually?
I think the two of you have a lot of talking to do. What are your needs and desires in this situation? What reassurances do you need? You haven't talked about them here, and they're a part of this equation, too. Polyamory of any form takes a good deal of negotiation, trust, and honesty. Good luck.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:13 AM on April 13, 2009 [5 favorites]
It's possible that she's not insecure or jealous about you sleeping with another woman, but with you sleeping with this woman, who (perhaps) she's starting another relationship with.
dingdingdingding, we have a winner.
posted by desjardins at 10:26 AM on April 13, 2009 [8 favorites]
dingdingdingding, we have a winner.
posted by desjardins at 10:26 AM on April 13, 2009 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I wonder how experienced your wife was before she met you? The short answer is: yeah, this sounds like she's really insecure about this scenario.
I have been very upfront with her about the role of sex and fidelity in our relationship. I told her I would never limit her experiences as long as they didn't interfere with our emotional life and that she should have experiences because I don't really believe in monogamy although I am monogamous to her. I guess you could call it a door-half-open-open-relationship.
If you two are comfortable with this agreement, that's fine. Open relationships do not have to be completely tit-for-tat in order to work. However, both parties do have to willing to communicate clearly, unembarassedly, and specifically. It sounds like you and she are not entirely comfortable discussing what exactly is allowed, especially since the language you use is sort of an inconsistent mishmosh of "cheating" and "experiences" and "faithfulness" and "monogamy." I'm not exactly sure how you two define these terms, and I'm not sure that you have decided how you define them either. But if you're going to be taking care of your emotional life, I think you two need to do some work together on these questions.
II turned the question back at her a bit and asked her if she was really ok with that or if I should know anything else.
If she can't handle a little bit of inquiry and discussion, she should do some serious thinking about what she wants from her relationships, her priorities, and what she's equipped to handle emotionally. There are a lot of people who are very attracted to the idea of open relationships/polyamory who are unfortunately not very good at it. A bit of morning-after doubt is completely normal, but the idea is to look at your spouse across the breakfast table and be happy to be having this discussion.
All is not lost. You two can back up, acknowledge (as nebulawindphone nicely explained) that group sex is intense and complicated, and make with the "I" statements. I'll look for some book recommendations for you later tonight when I get home from work.
/female, bisexual, married to a straight guy
posted by desuetude at 10:31 AM on April 13, 2009
I have been very upfront with her about the role of sex and fidelity in our relationship. I told her I would never limit her experiences as long as they didn't interfere with our emotional life and that she should have experiences because I don't really believe in monogamy although I am monogamous to her. I guess you could call it a door-half-open-open-relationship.
If you two are comfortable with this agreement, that's fine. Open relationships do not have to be completely tit-for-tat in order to work. However, both parties do have to willing to communicate clearly, unembarassedly, and specifically. It sounds like you and she are not entirely comfortable discussing what exactly is allowed, especially since the language you use is sort of an inconsistent mishmosh of "cheating" and "experiences" and "faithfulness" and "monogamy." I'm not exactly sure how you two define these terms, and I'm not sure that you have decided how you define them either. But if you're going to be taking care of your emotional life, I think you two need to do some work together on these questions.
II turned the question back at her a bit and asked her if she was really ok with that or if I should know anything else.
If she can't handle a little bit of inquiry and discussion, she should do some serious thinking about what she wants from her relationships, her priorities, and what she's equipped to handle emotionally. There are a lot of people who are very attracted to the idea of open relationships/polyamory who are unfortunately not very good at it. A bit of morning-after doubt is completely normal, but the idea is to look at your spouse across the breakfast table and be happy to be having this discussion.
All is not lost. You two can back up, acknowledge (as nebulawindphone nicely explained) that group sex is intense and complicated, and make with the "I" statements. I'll look for some book recommendations for you later tonight when I get home from work.
/female, bisexual, married to a straight guy
posted by desuetude at 10:31 AM on April 13, 2009
I think PhoBWanKenobi brought up something that you have to consider, and then decide how you feel about it.
is she jealous that you, her husband, wants to sleep with another woman - or is she upset that you, a man, wants to sleep with her girlfriend?
anytime you are in a not strictly monogamous relationship boundaries and expectations need to be discussed, decided upon, rediscussed, and redecided upon. relationships like this take a lot of work. she sounds like she has a really sweet deal here, but only you can decide if her selfishness is a deal breaker.
another point that i didn't see in your question - where does everyone sit on the kink scale? are you topping? is she? are you both topping or both bottoming (hence why you took the gal and she took his ex)? if she's a top and just finding herself in that, this could be more about control (and her inability to realize or communicate that).
posted by nadawi at 10:33 AM on April 13, 2009
is she jealous that you, her husband, wants to sleep with another woman - or is she upset that you, a man, wants to sleep with her girlfriend?
anytime you are in a not strictly monogamous relationship boundaries and expectations need to be discussed, decided upon, rediscussed, and redecided upon. relationships like this take a lot of work. she sounds like she has a really sweet deal here, but only you can decide if her selfishness is a deal breaker.
another point that i didn't see in your question - where does everyone sit on the kink scale? are you topping? is she? are you both topping or both bottoming (hence why you took the gal and she took his ex)? if she's a top and just finding herself in that, this could be more about control (and her inability to realize or communicate that).
posted by nadawi at 10:33 AM on April 13, 2009
This sounds less like equality to me than your wife feels threatened by a change in the rules: according to your story she's been playing by the rules fine, you've been playing by the rules fine, but the BDSM-and-dry-humping stretched the rules a bit, and now the thought of it pushing even further is even scarier; you need to work out the rules with her - and let her know that the existing rules are perfectly fine with you, but if they're going to change you both need to hash it out. The problem is the rules, not either of your behavior, so keep the discussion focused on how the rules are.
Secondary thought: if you guys have played light-BDSM-and-swinging and it's one of her turn-ons, might she be using this to feed a domme fantasy -- her freakout is because you weren't playing along, or what was "play" in her head went way off track and freaked her out?
posted by AzraelBrown at 10:36 AM on April 13, 2009
Secondary thought: if you guys have played light-BDSM-and-swinging and it's one of her turn-ons, might she be using this to feed a domme fantasy -- her freakout is because you weren't playing along, or what was "play" in her head went way off track and freaked her out?
posted by AzraelBrown at 10:36 AM on April 13, 2009
You are married, so immediate DTMFA isn't really an option. You need to try to work this out. And this starts with counseling and a new arrangement. People are free to work out any relationship status they want. But it is really hard to make it work when one party is free to do what they want and the other is not. If the emotional consequences are not the same for both parties, then it is quite hard to work out. It sounds like you've been the stronger party playing the role of the weaker. Not a good thing.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:37 AM on April 13, 2009
posted by Ironmouth at 10:37 AM on April 13, 2009
oh, and as was stated above, and i feel like it needs to be restated again and again -
bisexual women are able to have completely satisfying monogamous relationships. and, thinking that it's different if your wife is nose deep in pussy or throat deep in cock could be blinding you to whether or not this new relationship is a healthy thing for your marriage.
which brings me to another point - in a poly situation, any outside relationships or encounters or experiences (whatever you need to call them) should strengthen the primary relationship. if it is weakening the primary relationship then someone is putting their own needs and desires above the needs and desires of the couple which isn't so ok in open relationships. when someone wants to think of themselves first and most they should be single.
posted by nadawi at 10:39 AM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]
bisexual women are able to have completely satisfying monogamous relationships. and, thinking that it's different if your wife is nose deep in pussy or throat deep in cock could be blinding you to whether or not this new relationship is a healthy thing for your marriage.
which brings me to another point - in a poly situation, any outside relationships or encounters or experiences (whatever you need to call them) should strengthen the primary relationship. if it is weakening the primary relationship then someone is putting their own needs and desires above the needs and desires of the couple which isn't so ok in open relationships. when someone wants to think of themselves first and most they should be single.
posted by nadawi at 10:39 AM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]
Get yourselves a copy of The Ethical Slut. Read it, talk about it, talk some more. Being in an open/poly/non-monogamous (everyone seems to use the terms slightly differently, so I'm throwing them all out there) requires a lot of communication, something you two don't seem to have done enough of, yet. You're both going to find things you trip over that you didn't know you'd trip over - stuff that, in your head, doesn't bother you, but the reality of it flips you out. That's okay. You just have to talk more. Good luck.
posted by rtha at 11:01 AM on April 13, 2009
posted by rtha at 11:01 AM on April 13, 2009
I am not in the DTMFA camp on this one (am I just a hopeless romantic? It seems like I am always devil's advocate on these types of questions).
I think your wife freaked out because she has never known you to want to be with another woman, and the idea that you might made her feel jealous. This is new territory for her, so some jealousy is totally natural and normal. I have been in a committed open relationship for six years and we both still feel jealous sometimes.
I think her reaction seems out of whack, but give it some time. If you are able to have calm, caring conversations about this, and she is able to come around to understanding all the stuff you wrote above, then it will be fine.
If, on the other hand, she continues to act as if you have done something wrong (and this seems ridiculous because it seems like you aren't even intending to have sex with this other woman), then I don't see much hope. Non-monogamy and exploration like this only work if people are willing to communicate and be patient with each other.
posted by mai at 11:22 AM on April 13, 2009
I think your wife freaked out because she has never known you to want to be with another woman, and the idea that you might made her feel jealous. This is new territory for her, so some jealousy is totally natural and normal. I have been in a committed open relationship for six years and we both still feel jealous sometimes.
I think her reaction seems out of whack, but give it some time. If you are able to have calm, caring conversations about this, and she is able to come around to understanding all the stuff you wrote above, then it will be fine.
If, on the other hand, she continues to act as if you have done something wrong (and this seems ridiculous because it seems like you aren't even intending to have sex with this other woman), then I don't see much hope. Non-monogamy and exploration like this only work if people are willing to communicate and be patient with each other.
posted by mai at 11:22 AM on April 13, 2009
I think a lot of commenters have overreacted a bit.
Your wife has been very controlling of your sex life, and it sounds like up until this point you haven't had a problem with it. As evidence:
2. I would follow any conditions she gives me in regards to a group situation.
so she's used to calling the shots and setting the limits for acceptability. She didn't tell you that was a limit that you couldn't cross, and reaction was far too dramatic. I bet your wife has a strong personality, and she's dramatic about lots of things. If you wait a few days, this will pass.
If you're still fine with her calling the shots, just let it go. If not, you need to have a talk, but be prepared because it might not go well. But if it bothers you, you need to do it.
posted by Willy Wombat at 11:48 AM on April 13, 2009
Your wife has been very controlling of your sex life, and it sounds like up until this point you haven't had a problem with it. As evidence:
2. I would follow any conditions she gives me in regards to a group situation.
so she's used to calling the shots and setting the limits for acceptability. She didn't tell you that was a limit that you couldn't cross, and reaction was far too dramatic. I bet your wife has a strong personality, and she's dramatic about lots of things. If you wait a few days, this will pass.
If you're still fine with her calling the shots, just let it go. If not, you need to have a talk, but be prepared because it might not go well. But if it bothers you, you need to do it.
posted by Willy Wombat at 11:48 AM on April 13, 2009
The spheres of sexuality and monogamy are not clearly defined, even if we pretend they are.
And, sometimes, they overlap: perhaps your wife doesn't consider sex with another woman especially treacherous to your relationship, because, frankly: you're a man.
I sincerely doubt she would have the same reservations if you were boning a guy; I also doubt you would be as allowing/open-minded/free-thinking if she was having sex with a guy.
And honestly? Fuck the idea that bisexuality is just a fun little diversion for married couples who want to stay "really monogamous."
posted by trotter at 12:01 PM on April 13, 2009
And, sometimes, they overlap: perhaps your wife doesn't consider sex with another woman especially treacherous to your relationship, because, frankly: you're a man.
I sincerely doubt she would have the same reservations if you were boning a guy; I also doubt you would be as allowing/open-minded/free-thinking if she was having sex with a guy.
And honestly? Fuck the idea that bisexuality is just a fun little diversion for married couples who want to stay "really monogamous."
posted by trotter at 12:01 PM on April 13, 2009
i honestly thought i'd never say this, but: DTMFA.
ditto. People around here seem to jump to DTMFA at the slightest little problem but your wife is insane. The idea that you even thinking about sex with another woman (in the context of a discussion about having a threesome) is cheating is crazy, regardless of the fact that you let her do whatever she wants with whoever she wants.
If you wait a few days, this will pass.
Its been a week... this isn't going away.
Maybe DTMFA is a little harsh but if she wants to leave you over this then you should let her, she's a hypocrite and a drama queen. This isn't a knee jerk jealous reaction that she'll get over after she's had time to sleep on it. She's had lots of time to realise how irrational her reaction was. You need to stand firm, you did nothing wrong, you need to keep telling yourself that. People think about having sexual encounters with other people than their partners all the time, it is not cheating, it normal human behavior. If she's going to make your life miserable because of it then you should just walk away.
posted by missmagenta at 12:15 PM on April 13, 2009
ditto. People around here seem to jump to DTMFA at the slightest little problem but your wife is insane. The idea that you even thinking about sex with another woman (in the context of a discussion about having a threesome) is cheating is crazy, regardless of the fact that you let her do whatever she wants with whoever she wants.
If you wait a few days, this will pass.
Its been a week... this isn't going away.
Maybe DTMFA is a little harsh but if she wants to leave you over this then you should let her, she's a hypocrite and a drama queen. This isn't a knee jerk jealous reaction that she'll get over after she's had time to sleep on it. She's had lots of time to realise how irrational her reaction was. You need to stand firm, you did nothing wrong, you need to keep telling yourself that. People think about having sexual encounters with other people than their partners all the time, it is not cheating, it normal human behavior. If she's going to make your life miserable because of it then you should just walk away.
posted by missmagenta at 12:15 PM on April 13, 2009
Bisexual sex is sex. Just because it doesn't involve a penis in a vagina doesn't mean it doesn't count. She is having her cake and eating it, too, and not sharing it with her partner.
posted by fructose at 12:25 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by fructose at 12:25 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
"She has never been with another man in the eight plus years we have been dating although she did kiss a man in a bar in Los Angeles and made out with another man and woman at a Hollywood party during the same trip. As far as I know that was it."
As far as you know.
This will not end well. This is a very unhealthy arrangement you all have going on. And while you pretend that you trust your wife fully and completely, I'm nto buying it. And it's obvious she doesn't trust you that way either, no matter how sexually liberal you each think you are. I say it's time to have a nice long talk. The tryst game is over, it's lived out its usefullness and you all have reached the inevitable wall. Imo, either you both decide to be monogamous or it's a wrap. Clearly, the multi-party thing is no longer an option. Good luck.
posted by GeniPalm at 1:55 PM on April 13, 2009
As far as you know.
This will not end well. This is a very unhealthy arrangement you all have going on. And while you pretend that you trust your wife fully and completely, I'm nto buying it. And it's obvious she doesn't trust you that way either, no matter how sexually liberal you each think you are. I say it's time to have a nice long talk. The tryst game is over, it's lived out its usefullness and you all have reached the inevitable wall. Imo, either you both decide to be monogamous or it's a wrap. Clearly, the multi-party thing is no longer an option. Good luck.
posted by GeniPalm at 1:55 PM on April 13, 2009
And honestly? Fuck the idea that bisexuality is just a fun little diversion for married couples who want to stay "really monogamous."
Seriously. To me, bringing someone else into the bedroom and then freaking out at the result sounds a lot like "I want to get out of this relationship but I need a reason first."
Same thing happened to Mr. Messylissa. SAME THING. It did not end well, by any stretch of the imagination.
Either your wife values your relationship and wants an equal partnership or she's having too much fun and doesn't like you getting in the way. Sounds way too much like the latter to me, and you will end up heartbroken and destroyed.
You deserve better.
posted by messylissa at 3:37 PM on April 13, 2009
Seriously. To me, bringing someone else into the bedroom and then freaking out at the result sounds a lot like "I want to get out of this relationship but I need a reason first."
Same thing happened to Mr. Messylissa. SAME THING. It did not end well, by any stretch of the imagination.
Either your wife values your relationship and wants an equal partnership or she's having too much fun and doesn't like you getting in the way. Sounds way too much like the latter to me, and you will end up heartbroken and destroyed.
You deserve better.
posted by messylissa at 3:37 PM on April 13, 2009
It sounds to me that she doesn't want her new girlfriend cheating on her with you.
posted by agentwills at 5:06 PM on April 13, 2009
posted by agentwills at 5:06 PM on April 13, 2009
You did NOTHING wrong. Not a thing.
If you two have ground rules for your relationship that allow her a certain amount of sexual freedom, it's only fair that YOU are allowed the SAME amount of sexual freedom. If she's not down with that, you two need to have a serious talk about boundaries and why it's alright for them to be extended farther for her than for you.
It sounds like she wants a polyamorous relationship, but she wants YOU to have a monogamous relationship. That will just never work. If your relationship is open, it's OPEN. It's not closed on one side only.
For the record: I am bisexual. I have never, ever used this as an excuse to demand side affairs in monogamous relationships with EITHER gender. I'm in a LTR with a man, I've been married to a different man, and I was in a LTR with a woman. Never did I ever use being bi as an excuse to go out and have a fling with a member of the opposite gender. It's a ridiculous stereotype that some bisexuals who are also polyamorous (whether they're admitting this upfront or not) have pinned on those of us who are bisexual and ALSO monogamous.
These double standard Bi-girls are freaking hotter than all hell but geez the drama and "do as I say not as I do" values drive me insane.
Yeah, and they give the rest of us bisexual women a bad rap. Drives me bats.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:39 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
If you two have ground rules for your relationship that allow her a certain amount of sexual freedom, it's only fair that YOU are allowed the SAME amount of sexual freedom. If she's not down with that, you two need to have a serious talk about boundaries and why it's alright for them to be extended farther for her than for you.
It sounds like she wants a polyamorous relationship, but she wants YOU to have a monogamous relationship. That will just never work. If your relationship is open, it's OPEN. It's not closed on one side only.
For the record: I am bisexual. I have never, ever used this as an excuse to demand side affairs in monogamous relationships with EITHER gender. I'm in a LTR with a man, I've been married to a different man, and I was in a LTR with a woman. Never did I ever use being bi as an excuse to go out and have a fling with a member of the opposite gender. It's a ridiculous stereotype that some bisexuals who are also polyamorous (whether they're admitting this upfront or not) have pinned on those of us who are bisexual and ALSO monogamous.
These double standard Bi-girls are freaking hotter than all hell but geez the drama and "do as I say not as I do" values drive me insane.
Yeah, and they give the rest of us bisexual women a bad rap. Drives me bats.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:39 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
I'll just add to the consensus here that you don't seem to have done anything wrong. The fact that she is able to have sex with other people, but you aren't even "allowed" to be attracted to the same person, even someone with which you participated in a quasi-sexual roleplay with, is kind of astounding. That's a real imbalance in your relationship. If you're not ok with that imbalance, you need to have a talk with the wife and sort of draw a line in the sand. I would start with a simple "Look, I don't want to have sex with so-and-so, but I do find her attractive. Hell, you certainly find her attractive. But I promise I won't sleep with anyone else."
This is the crux of the matter--your promise. If you swear to do something and she doesn't believe you, then that's a problem. Give it some time; jealous people need more time than normal people to believe promises like this. But if she (not you) hasn't made any progress after a while, you may need to think about terminating the relationship.
You sound like a prince for not wanting to sleep around while your wife does with your permission. If she is too insecure/immature to allow you even the fantasy or simple erotic thoughts of another person, you're not doing yourself any favors being with a person like this. But before you call a divorce lawyer or anything, talk to her and tell her there's nothing wrong with the fantasy life that goes on in your head.
posted by zardoz at 7:27 PM on April 13, 2009
This is the crux of the matter--your promise. If you swear to do something and she doesn't believe you, then that's a problem. Give it some time; jealous people need more time than normal people to believe promises like this. But if she (not you) hasn't made any progress after a while, you may need to think about terminating the relationship.
You sound like a prince for not wanting to sleep around while your wife does with your permission. If she is too insecure/immature to allow you even the fantasy or simple erotic thoughts of another person, you're not doing yourself any favors being with a person like this. But before you call a divorce lawyer or anything, talk to her and tell her there's nothing wrong with the fantasy life that goes on in your head.
posted by zardoz at 7:27 PM on April 13, 2009
I really dont get why it is ok for her to be monogamous and it is not for you (even if you dont want to), I think you should put it out there and let it be known that if she gets to play around you get to play around also (even though you may never exercise the option)....Once the rules are established...then you can probably talk about your fantasies without no issues.....if not anytime you express your thoughts she can easily flip out and you will come back here asking if you are in the wrong (which you totally are not)...
If she is just jealous of that particular girl then of course you dont want to touch her...but now you have the issue of her getting into a "relationship" with someone else...is that allowed also?
posted by The1andonly at 8:13 PM on April 13, 2009
If she is just jealous of that particular girl then of course you dont want to touch her...but now you have the issue of her getting into a "relationship" with someone else...is that allowed also?
posted by The1andonly at 8:13 PM on April 13, 2009
This is absolutely crazy. She gets to eat out some other woman's slit, possibly make out with other men, go basically sexually hog wild, and you get villainized for (she thinks) being interested in banging some strange slit yourself?
She is being totally unreasonable, totally unfair, and you need to either get her up to speed on fundamental fairness or dump her ass.
posted by jayder at 11:53 PM on April 13, 2009
She is being totally unreasonable, totally unfair, and you need to either get her up to speed on fundamental fairness or dump her ass.
posted by jayder at 11:53 PM on April 13, 2009
The only rationale I could think of, for her attitude, is that her homosexual experimentation poses no threat to you, because you're a guy. So you shouldn't be jealous (perhaps this is her line of thought).
But you --- not being interested in dick --- would have to chase pussy to be able to indulge in extramarital sexual shenanigans. And this is a threat to her, because she's a woman.
I can totally understand this. If my wife were cheating on me with another woman, I wouldn't be nearly as jealous as I would be if she were cheating on me with a man. If it were a woman, my reaction would be a bemused "what the fuck?!?!", but if it were a man, I would be absolutely, homicidally enraged.
So perhaps this is her thinking. Her fooling around with other women's twats is not a threat to your relationship --- it's just a harmless extracurricular sexual activity --- but you wanting to pound some other twats is a threat to the core relationship.
posted by jayder at 11:58 PM on April 13, 2009
But you --- not being interested in dick --- would have to chase pussy to be able to indulge in extramarital sexual shenanigans. And this is a threat to her, because she's a woman.
I can totally understand this. If my wife were cheating on me with another woman, I wouldn't be nearly as jealous as I would be if she were cheating on me with a man. If it were a woman, my reaction would be a bemused "what the fuck?!?!", but if it were a man, I would be absolutely, homicidally enraged.
So perhaps this is her thinking. Her fooling around with other women's twats is not a threat to your relationship --- it's just a harmless extracurricular sexual activity --- but you wanting to pound some other twats is a threat to the core relationship.
posted by jayder at 11:58 PM on April 13, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
She understands that same-gender sex is still sex, right? I'm totally confused.
posted by availablelight at 9:38 AM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]