No sex no fun

June 4, 2009 3:27 PM

What is one to do when the sex has gone out of the marriage?

My wife and I are early 30s, married about 5 years together for 7, and it seems that the sex is over. I have tried the usual things, romantic dates, nights out, trips intended to be romantic "away from our daily job grind" types of things, but it's just not there. I compliment her on her looks, her clothes, etc. to make sure she knows I find her sexy, but all it garners is "thank you".

We are fairly healthy communicators I feel and I've brought this up to her a number of times, and it's always the same reply "I'm busy, I'm tired, I don't mean to neglect you" but whenever I initiate sex I am turned down for reasons of "tired" or "sore" or "sick" or "headache" etc. And she never initiates it.

This is a far cry from the sexy, sex-minded woman I dated who used to initiate constantly...I almost feel like I was lured into the marriage by false advertising, that she pretended to be more into sex until marriage, where it has now waned to the point I cannot remember the last time we did have sex.

Other than the sex our relationship is great. She's my closest friend and confidant. But without the sex, I'm starting to not feel valued, etc. It doesn't help that I have some issues in my past which have led to me having a higher than normal libido, and I find my self-worth through sex. So without the sex I'm feeling unloved.

(I do think perhaps the loss of libido may be due to some weight we have both picked up recently, both due to attractiveness issues and due to the fact that overweight people lose energy and libido, however she also seems fairly unwilling to eat more healthy which is something I have tried to pursue as well).

And in case anyone brings it up, I'm positive she's not having an affair. It's not that she's getting it somewhere else, it's that she just seems to no longer need it.

So I guess my question is: is this a divorce-worthy issue if everything else is going good? Is therapy required? Are there alternatives (Besides the obvious solo masturbation that I am doing daily) that can simply make ME not want sex?

She's fairly conservative so I don't feel suggesting an "open marriage" would be something she would be receptive to.

posted by anonymous to human relations (67 comments total)

But without the sex, I'm starting to not feel valued, etc.

Tell her this instead of us.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:33 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]

Is she depressed? That can be a huge libido killer. Her unwillingness to eat more healthy could also be a symptom of depression. Also, you say you compliment her and have done all the "usual things," but are you doing these things because that's how you feel about her or because you want to get laid?
posted by MaryDellamorte at 3:36 PM on June 4 [2 favorites]

Considering what you say about her being your confidant, et cetera, I wouldn't say she simply lost interest in you- but I am going to second the depression theory in a serious way.
posted by dunkadunc at 3:44 PM on June 4

Talk to her. It's unclear whether you're actually talking to her about it now or whether you just express frustration when you are turned down, etc.) Let her know how you feel and ask her what you can do so that the two of you are able to resume sex.

But if talking isn't working, you should find a marriage counselor. Ask her to come with you, but if she doesn't, you should still go on your own.

Good luck!
posted by Happydaz at 3:44 PM on June 4

There are tons of us out there in the same situation - see my previous similar question for some insight.

The biggest thing that has helped me has been to make sure I masturbate regularly. (for me, this means every morning after she goes to work).

I am slowly coming to terms with the fact that I probably won't ever have the level of intimacy and sexuality that I want out of a relationship. Some women just aren't wired that way, and it looks like we each got one.

I'm not interested in dealing with the messiness of cheating at this point, so porn and my right hand it is.

We'll have kids in the next year or so, so hopefully that will distract me from what is missing in our relationship.

Good luck, and seriously, jerk off until you don't care anymore.
posted by anonymous account at 3:44 PM on June 4

I feel that something is divorce worthy if it's something that is a dealbreaker for you. Never mind if it "should or shouldn't" be a dealbreaker - is it a dealbreaker for you? And I think the truth is that sex is a huge part of an intimate relationship, and it's important that both partners be clear on the others' needs.

It gets into murky territory when you immediately call something a dealbreaker without doing your best to address the issue. And while you have done some of the right things - being honest with her, trying to make her feel sexy and loved - I think there is more you can do before you have to make such a decision. Namely, addressing why it is she isn't doing her part in order to make things better (if she indeed isn't). Knowing how you feel but not doing anything to fix it, or even just meet you halfway, is putting even more strain on an already touchy problem.

Have you had this kind of talk with her, where you not only address the lack of sex, but how it makes you feel when she doesn't do her part to work on it? This is a hard thing to talk about but you have to give her all of the information she needs to have in order to move forward: namely, knowing exactly how you feel and why you feel that way. I'm not saying she needs to know you are entertaining divorce (at least not at this point). But at no point later on do you want her to be able to say that she didn't know how strongly you felt about this, because that's not fair to her or your marriage.

Someone upthread mentioned depression, and I think that is worth exploring. I know, personally, depression manifests itself for me in the form of inertia - I know what I need to do, I know it's important...and yet I don't do it. I strongly encourage therapy, either for you guys individually or as a couple. Her lack of action may be due to circumstances she can't quite control right now, or not have the tools to manage.
posted by DrGirlfriend at 3:54 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]

>: jerk off until you don't care anymore.

That's.... a sad option. You should tell her what you've told us, though, and look into marriage counseling if you can afford it.

Is it worth a divorce? In this day and age, it's kind of a given in a long-term relationship that there be some sex involved. If sex is important to you, and talking/therapy doesn't help, then... well, I don't think masturbating all the time is going to help much.
posted by dunkadunc at 3:57 PM on June 4

I wonder how long this has been going on? I've gone through periods where, for one reason or another, I just wasn't interested in all the hassle of sex. One period lasted nearly a year and looking back I could have handled it much better. I sound a lot like your wife, who has told you exactly why she's not interested:

"I'm busy, I'm tired, I don't mean to neglect you" but whenever I initiate sex I am turned down for reasons of "tired" or "sore" or "sick" or "headache" etc. And she never initiates it.

I doubt it has anything to do with getting fatter (I'm fatter now than I was when I had low libido) and everything to do with getting older and busier and more stressed out (or it's possible she's depressed). Here's what changed for me since that time: 1) I stopped working out in the morning before work, so I had more energy after work. 2) I started getting more sleep overall - at least 7.5 hours. 3) My spouse and I started initiating sex earlier in the day - much, much earlier on the weekends. You say that you're trying to communicate but maybe the message isn't getting through to her that this is really affecting you...
posted by muddgirl at 4:19 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]

Well... is she busy and tired all the time? Is she working long hours at work? Doing most of the child rearing/housework? If so, is there anything you (plural) can do to address that?

I have brought this up before in a similar thread and don't want to sound like a one-trick pony, but the fact is that in most hetero relationships, even today, women end up doing most of the housework. And my own observation is that most men are oblivious to that fact. If she works full time and then comes home and has to make dinner and clean and [etc.] before she even gets to sit down, then yeah, she probably is too tired.

This is, of course, only one possibility and I could be completely wrong. The suggestion upthread that she might be depressed is worth considering too. Or it could be something else.

Whatever it is, though, I think you both owe it to yourselves to figure out what's wrong and at least try to fix it. You only get one life, do you really want to spend so much of it unfulfilled?
posted by AV at 4:37 PM on June 4 [7 favorites]

Some women just aren't wired that way, and it looks like we each got one.

This is by no means exclusively a female issue, and nobody (including the OP) is well served by positing it as one.

Anonymous, your question is premature. "I'm not getting any; should I dump her?" is not the question you need to be asking right now. The question you need to be asking right now is "I'm not getting any; how do we find a reputable marriage therapist?"

And to answer your actual question, it's a dealbreaker for some - but presumably not the surprisingly large percentage of couples living in a celibate marriage. I can't remember the stats but I think it's somewhere in excess of 20%.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:38 PM on June 4 [4 favorites]

I almost feel like I was lured into the marriage by false advertising, that she pretended to be more into sex until marriage

Does she have a job?
posted by Zambrano at 4:40 PM on June 4

I've recently learned about a new model for women's sexual response that might help you start a discussion with your wife. Look up Rosemary Basson and Lori Brotto for more information and papers. Here is a graphic.

Previously, the same model was used for men and women. However, for many women as they got older and/or more established in their relationship, they no longer experienced spontaneous desire to be sexual. Losing that latent desire can lead to feelings of something being wrong.

Instead of starting off aroused, many women have to be willing to start off just being receptive to being sexual. They need to tell themselves that even though they may not feel like it at the moment, it will make them feel good, closer to their partner, is an important part of a relationship, etc. They need to figure out what kind of stimuli they need, be it sexual or just having chores done. Then women start to get aroused (in contrast to the old model, which assumes you start with arousal). Finally, you're having sex, which hopefully is positive and leads to feeling close to your partner, giving you even more reason to be willing to start the cycle next time.

Reading over this, it all sounds a bit academic. But the basic idea is it's ok if you're wife has a low sex drive if she decides that she would like to have sex anyways. Hopefully you can talk to each other and come to some sort of compromise. Learning this made me feel better about not wanting sex that much. I hope it helps and things get better.
posted by carolr at 4:44 PM on June 4 [18 favorites]

The solution to your age-old problem is just as age-old. If your wife is no longer willing to fill those needs, then there is nothing ethically wrong with filling them with someone else. If she re-discovers her libido later, then all the better.

I live in Japan, where women are famous for not having sex after marriage. :)
It's kind of assumed that the guys will get it somewhere else, and it's expected that they be discrete enough not to let their wives know about it. It's almost a question of manners.

To me this solution seems eminently logical and civilized, without the emotional histrionics so present in the US based on originally-untenable ideals such as life-long fidelity coupled with perfect transparency and honesty (bleh).
posted by zachawry at 4:51 PM on June 4 [8 favorites]

I agree, she is saying she is tired, sore, sick, stressed and she means it. It is the biggest libido killer I know of. She needs the time and energy to feel sexy/sensual for herself, in her own life. She needs to recharge, sleep, de-overwhelm, feel free enough to have 'me' time, have some luxury, have the recession end, have the house clean, finances in order, that proposal finished, the dishes clean. For starters (that list is about 1% of the real list).

Try to change the structure of life so that there is room for sex. Anything that can get her to stop the 'do-do' list in her head that is constantly harassing her.

And once that is all taken care of, she probably needs a good 2 weeks on an island with nothing but a good book to recover from her overstimulated, overobligated, overwhelmed life. Two months would be better.

Oh. that would be me I am talking about. But it might be her, too.
posted by Vaike at 4:52 PM on June 4 [8 favorites]

I'll try to offer some personal female perspective. Exhaustion and stress are huge obstacles to our female libido, especially for women who throw themselves into work and career. Maybe this is what she's trying to communicate when she says she's too exhausted to have sex. Instead of interpreting this as a sexual rejection, maybe you can move past this bump in your marriage by interpreting her statements as a cry for help.
Instead of focusing on romance, try focusing on helping her find opportunities to get her mind and body back into balance by investing in herself. Help her relax, retune, and eventually reconnect back to you through intimacy by helping her finding a space where she's free of any demands on her time - including needs for attention from work and family (you didn't mention whether you have kids or pets, but taking care of someone or something else can be both physically and emotionally draining.)
Therapeutic massage from a licensed therapist may work wonders, because it gives her an opportunity to relax and recenter in a neutral environment with someone who doesn't need her to give back anything (other than perhaps $$$). Before she can reconnect with you, she needs to reconnect with herself.
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:52 PM on June 4 [4 favorites]

Please don't have kids only because you hope they'll fill a void or be a distraction. I'm guessing that's not the only reason you want to have them, but I'm just sayin'. Good luck.
posted by ShadePlant at 5:02 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]

Seconding carolr as hard as I can. I haven't seen those resources before, but they mirror what I have learned over time. I like this approach because nobody has to feel bad or weird for having high sex drive or low sex drive, and it really seeks a win-win situation for both partners.

Your post probably could have been written by my husband at one point or another. What helps me is to just be open to having sex. If I'm just open, my husband knows what to do to help me get from just open to YES!

We still don't have sex as much as he would like, but it is better. He's a lot like you in the fact that he feels unloved when we don't have sex, and understanding that has been important to me being open. I had to realize that he isn't just trying to "get his," but that he's trying to communicate his feelings.
posted by jeoc at 5:05 PM on June 4 [2 favorites]

If your wife is no longer willing to fill those needs, then there is nothing ethically wrong with filling them with someone else.
There's nothing intrinsically ethically wrong about it, but in the situation the OP is describing -- and in most monogamous cultures I'm aware of -- it's unquestionably ethically wrong. Cheating isn't suddenly acceptable simply because one's needs aren't being met.

OP: Unlike the others, I'd suggest you stop masturbating. It's an unsatisfying substitute, and increasing your sexual tension will give you more drive to raise the sexual tension in your relationship.

I realise it's almost verboten in such threads to suggest that more talking isn't the answer, but in this case, I suspect it isn't. You don't whine or wheedle someone into bed, you seduce them. Not with compliments and godawful corny romance, but with sexuality, which is largely an animal thing. Right now, she doesn't want you sexually, and you're not going to change that by sitting up straight and saying "please" nicely.

Drop the confidant best-pals shit and the perma-compliments -- all you're doing is making clear that she's reeled you in. Why should she bother to lose weight, or give you sex she doesn't feel like -- she's already got you, and people don't want what they've already got. You need to get her to want you again. So you lose the weight. And get yourself some mystery -- not in a skeezy where-the-hell-is-he? way but in a oh-he's-suddenly-become-interesting-to-me-again way.

Then seduce her properly, in a way that's more "pounce" than "please, miss, may I have a go, if it's OK?". If she's physically flinching away from you after this, you have deeper problems. If it's just boredom and familiarity, you've got a chance. "Man up, nancy" is boorish and frat-like, but there's also a grain of truth in it.
posted by fightorflight at 5:25 PM on June 4 [18 favorites]

(Dear Penthouse: I never thought I would use this sockpuppet account for anything but a stupid joke, but...)

We'll have kids in the next year or so, so hopefully that will distract me from what is missing in our relationship.

Good luck, and seriously, jerk off until you don't care anymore.

I was in the same situation. We ended up having kids. It did not distract us, it did not solve our problems, and now we're in a position where we believe getting divorced would be the best option but do not want to do it since we have kids. The kids pick up on this, and it impacts their well being. We are in therapy and have no idea if it will help. DO NOT HAVE KIDS. GET A DIVORCE OR GET THERAPY. That is all.
posted by Passillododorconquail Buttonquivorybidododorbacon at 5:28 PM on June 4 [17 favorites]

You say that you've both recently put on weight...is it possible that she's less attracted to you now because of it? If that's the case, she may be trying to spare your feelings by turning you down for other reasons.

I would definitely try to find a couples' therapist, especially since it sounds like the rest of the relationship has a lot going for it.

Best of luck to you both.
posted by corey flood at 5:30 PM on June 4 [2 favorites]

I'm just thinking thru a theory that may or may not be part of this, but I know was a factor in relationships in my past.
For lack of a better term, I'll call it a need for autonomy, when the people closest to us expect us to do something and the very expectation makes us resistant. An analogy would be when someone lends you a book that is very important to them, with the almost command of "you got to read this", and for some stupid reason, even though you may really like the book, just getting started with it is like a chore.
I think in marriages this becomes a thing. Either way, when one partner has a stronger libido than the other, it's just there between you, all the time, the expectation and resistance. It has less to do with sex, stress and tiredness and more with a , well I don't really know what to call it but it's like a mental block.

I'm sure there's a work around and a therapist would help with that. Is she too conservative to want to watch you masterbate or something along those lines?
posted by readery at 5:32 PM on June 4 [3 favorites]

I actually agree with almost all what fightorflight says. "Talking" about it ad nauseum and trying to pester her into bed isn't likely to work. It might help if you yourself got more fit, attractive, etc.

That being said, I (and I realize most Americans would disagree with me) DON'T think cheating is necessarily ethically wrong if one's needs aren't being met.

Why is it ethically acceptable for your wife to deprive you of something key to your emotional well-being (and which she previously supplied abundantly), but not for you to find it somewhere else in a manner that otherwise preserves a happy marriage?

The fact is it's both ethical for your wife not to sleep with you if for some reason she's not into it, and for you to find someone else who is. Perhaps a married woman in a situation similar to yours.

And, having kids will indeed provide you with more meaning and beauty than you ever thought possible. They will also increase the stress level by 100% and decrease the sex level by another 100%, regardless of whether that's mathematically possible. :)
posted by zachawry at 5:39 PM on June 4

Why is it ethically acceptable for your wife to deprive you of something key to your emotional well-being (and which she previously supplied abundantly), but not for you to find it somewhere else in a manner that otherwise preserves a happy marriage?

Even if the first were ethically unacceptable, two wrongs don't make a right. Needs have nothing to do with the ethics of cheating -- and sexual needs are a lot more like wants. If I'm hungry and want your dinner, can I just take it?

Cheating is, by definition, breaking a contract of trust. One person pledges fidelity to another. There's not really a way to make breaking that ethical. There will be mitigating circumstances, perhaps, but it's not going to be a Good action.
posted by fightorflight at 5:54 PM on June 4 [2 favorites]

Why is it ethically acceptable for your wife to deprive you of something key to your emotional well-being (and which she previously supplied abundantly), but not for you to find it somewhere else in a manner that otherwise preserves a happy marriage?

Because marriage isn't just a contract; it's a commitment to form a relationship that is satisfying to both partners.
Your theory is based upon the assumption that sex outside the marriage "preserves" a happy relationship. I'm not sure I accept that premise, but you have more insight into married Japanese women or that particular culture so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

On preview, what fof said.
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:55 PM on June 4

Why is it ethically acceptable for your wife to deprive you of something key to your emotional well-being (and which she previously supplied abundantly), but not for you to find it somewhere else in a manner that otherwise preserves a happy marriage?

Because monogamy might be necessary for her well being, and she should be the one who decides whether she's in a monogamous relationship, not the OP.

(That being said, he should be the one who decides if he wants to be in a sex-free marriage, too--by getting out of the relationship if she refuses to work on him to find a compromise about this.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:55 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]

Work with him, of course. Or on him, too, I guess.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:56 PM on June 4

Why is it ethically acceptable for your wife to deprive you of something key to your emotional well-being (and which she previously supplied abundantly), but not for you to find it somewhere else in a manner that otherwise preserves a happy marriage?

Because monogamy might be necessary for her well being, and she should be the one who decides whether she's in a monogamous relationship, not the OP.

I realize this answer sounds flippant, although it is not intended to be: As far as his wife is concerned, she would be in a monogamous relationship.

Perhaps that answer is more appropriate when there are kids, or in other situations when deception is preferable to the OP's continuing unhappiness or divorce, which are likely the only two other options.
posted by zachawry at 6:14 PM on June 4

the OP's continuing unhappiness or divorce, which are likely the only two other options.

This is the straw man here. The best option is "work this out, probably with the help of a professional or professionals."

I am no foe to open relationships, but deception in intimate relationships is A Bad Thing. And yes, everyone always finds out.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:19 PM on June 4 [2 favorites]

No one has mentioned exercise. It does wonders for the libido. If your wife gets in touch with her body and her breath through dance, yoga, or regular workouts at the gym, she will be more inclined to get in touch with your body, as well.
posted by alms at 6:19 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]

If your wife of two years with whom you have no children refuses to have sex with you ever, and provides no reasons beyond "tired" and "busy" (aren't we all?) that's absolutely divorce worthy. I think it's divorce advisable.
posted by moxiedoll at 6:51 PM on June 4 [5 favorites]

If your wife gets in touch with her body and her breath through dance, yoga, or regular workouts at the gym, she will be more inclined to get in touch with your body, as well.

Maybe, if the "I'm too tired" thing is accurate. "I'm too tired" is often the easiest way to say "I'm too burned out on our relationship" or some other, more complicated issue that's best discussed in depth, perhaps with the help of a professional to facilitate things.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:54 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]

I don't know if I really agree with a lot of posters who are saying that your wife is over stressed, over worked, and if you just stepped up to the plate and did your fair share and was the supportive sensitive husband she needed she would all of a sudden be interested in sex again. I say this because it doesn't sound like your wife is ever interested in having sex with you. She doesn't want to have sex when you've taken her on a romantic weekend, she doesn't want sex after a couple glasses of wine at a nice restaurant, she doesn't want to have sex full stop. Now there may be a medical problem at play here, but if it's not it's one of two things: 1) her libido has radically changed and she is no longer interested sex, you have no idea of knowing if that will ever change; or 2) she is very unhappy about something and isn't tell you. Either depression or you. Either way since she isn't fessing up (or maybe doesn't know exactly how to express it) you need to get to therapy to work this out. Honestly, my guess would be #1 that you simply are no longer sexually compatible.
posted by whoaali at 7:03 PM on June 4

But without the sex, I'm starting to not feel valued, etc. It doesn't help that I have some issues in my past which have led to me having a higher than normal libido, and I find my self-worth through sex.

Usually, I really dislike the default, "Therapy now!!!" responses to relationship questions, but if this is how you see your situation, then maybe there are some issues you could be working out on your own that would change the way you relate to your wife sexually. Also, seconding exercise.
posted by mustard seeds at 7:08 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]

Please don't have kids only because you hope they'll fill a void or be a distraction.

n'thng this... DO NOT HAVE KIDS UNLESS YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR SPOUSE IS ROCK FRIGGIN SOLID...

Otherwise (if you have an ounce of responsibility) you will be locking yourself in for the long-haul.

Others have pointed out that an affair is not a reliable activity either.

Work this shit out or end it now.
posted by jkaczor at 7:40 PM on June 4 [2 favorites]

Man, some of these make me wish that there was one more flag option:
[x oh my god that is the worst possible answer in the universe]

I just want to offer my condolences, but advise that this may be part of a sea change as a human for her. Maybe not -- maybe it's just the space she's in right now -- but maybe so. I have no truck with the Dan Savage-esque view of a marriage as a business, in which you are entirely free and reasonable to fire your vendor if they no longer offer the quality and range of services you expect. But she must know how horrible this is making you feel, how important it is to you, before she can start to work on it.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:51 PM on June 4 [3 favorites]

Because marriage isn't just a contract; it's a commitment to form a relationship that is satisfying to both partners.

I agree with this sentiment.

Right now, though, your relationship is clearly not satisfying to both of you. She has every right not to have sex if she doesn't want to: you have every right to expect physical intimacy and sex to be a regular (for various values of "regular") part of your marriage, or you have every right to not be married any more.

Obviously I'd suggest marriage counseling before it got to that point. Sounds like you have a relationship that is worth working on. But you don't have to accept a sexless life unless you choose to.
posted by Justinian at 7:56 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]

Sex is a strange, shifting thing—we can't always track the directions it is tending toward. I know that it can be a feeling of the utmost despair when you find yourself believing with your body that the longing you feel at a given moment is part of the natural ebb and flow of sexuality within a marriage, only to have that longing recede with no resolution, leaving you feeling empty. People tend not to say anything about it during these moments because it is their deepest desire that this time the tides of longing might be leading toward real resolution.

You have to resist the temptation to keep playing through that scenario. I know you long for resolution, but it unfortunately won't come ‘the easy way’ through simple waiting. Every marriage has these moments; yes, every marriage deals with this difficult balance, and now is not the time for you to feel ashamed of a problem that is natural to marriage itself.

Again, resist the temptation to believe that your marriage will resolve itself; now is the time to work on your marriage. Talk to her. Now. Hard, but necessary.
posted by koeselitz at 8:58 PM on June 4 [2 favorites]

If 2 years in your marriage is sexless, run FAST.
posted by gte910h at 9:34 PM on June 4

What are you thinking?!? You're in a sexless marriage. You have realized that it is a problem - enough so that you're debating whether it is divorce-worthy. You realize this is probably a permanent aspect of your relationship going forward. The sex is gone.

...and yet you want to have children with her?!? In the next year or two?!?

That strikes me as horribly poor judgment.

It's good that you're not having sex with this woman, because from this point on, the only sex you two should be having is SAFE SEX. You're headed for divorce. Adding a child into the mix is stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid don't do it.
posted by 2oh1 at 9:59 PM on June 4 [4 favorites]

Picking up the "fair share" theme for a minute, if I may. If your marriage is typical, your wife really is pulling more of the load around the house than you are. That can breed so very much resentment, particularly if your wife is the one who ends up doing all the shitwork.

I mean shitwork, in both the literal and figurative senses. If she's the only one who ever cleans the toilet, SHE WILL RESENT YOU AND NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU. If she has to pick up your dirty underwear off the bedroom floor so it gets to the hamper, SHE WILL RESENT YOU AND NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU. If you never quite remember to take the glasses to the sink, and she's forever grumbling about having to clear them all away from the computer desk, SHE WILL RESENT YOU AND NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU. If your actions make it clear that she's the scullery maid and all that housekeeping stuff is beneath you, SHE WILL RESENT YOU AND NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU.

Men, I tell you, this is a huge reason why women don't want to have sex.

Even if this turns out not to be her issue, I agree, don't even think about having kids until this is sorted out. Having kids is exponentially more exhausting and almost inevitably brings a couple's sex life to a standstill.
posted by Sublimity at 10:25 PM on June 4 [8 favorites]

To expand on Sublimity's thoughts: If one partner always has to do the chores, they will feel like a parent and not a partner and THEN THEY WILL RESENT YOU AND NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU.

Maybe that's it, maybe it's not but the answer certainly isn't having kids. Try therapy (even if its just for you!) to find out why you'd be willing to sacrifice a happy, healthy sex life to keep the status quo.

Good luck to you.
posted by Space Kitty at 10:39 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]

gte910h: If 2 years in your marriage is sexless, run FAST.

If 2 years in your marriage is sexless, you are like almost every other married person on the planet. There's absolutely no marriage on earth that lacks some give and take, no marriage on earth that doesn't require both partners to refine their ability to communicate with each other at various turns. One of the most common types of ‘turn’ in marriage is a period of sexlessness; this only means that both partners need to learn a different or a new kind of communication.

And if there's anything in marriage that makes you “run FAST” instead of being careful and thoughtful and attempting to work things through, you won't be married long.

Sublimity: If she's the only one who ever cleans the toilet, SHE WILL RESENT YOU AND NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU…Men, I tell you, this is a huge reason why women don't want to have sex.

Some women do this. It is wrong. It constitutes bringing domestic issues into the intimate setting of the bedroom. Sex isn't a reward for cleaning toilets.

We men have our own muddled relationships with sexuality, but I think it's worth pointing out, anon, that if your wife tells you that she isn't sleeping with you because you never clean the toilet (or anything like that), you should tell her that (a) of course you'll start cleaning the toilet, since you both should bear burdens equally; and (b) this is not the way domestic disputes should be resolved. To put it bluntly: she needs sex as much as you do.
posted by koeselitz at 10:59 PM on June 4 [3 favorites]

Not that I think it changes much but a lot of people have been saying the OP has been married 2 years. The OP's question states that he has been married for 5 years, and together for 7. So he has been married 5 years and was with his wife for 2 years before they got married.
posted by Justinian at 11:10 PM on June 4 [2 favorites]

I can't favourite koeselitz comments above enough. In my previous experience with live in relationships (admittedly not marriages) I fell for the "do the dishes and you'll get more" myth. Its true for a short time but then that just gets assimilated into the dynamic of the relationship as if its something you've done all along, then its something else you take on ... and so on and so forth. And each time both the unequal dynamic of chores and the sex life turned out to be distinct and separate symptoms of different problems.

I have no problems doing work around the house, I live alone so currently I do all the chores and I'm more than happy to do whatever the balance works out between partners.

If your wife and partner feels she has doing more than her fair share, then surely she should be able to talk about it like an adult, not close down her emotional and physical being to her husband.
posted by Admira at 11:46 PM on June 4

Another thing to consider is that sometimes hormonal birth control can decrease the libido - is she on the pill? It sort of happens gradually over a few years while taking it, so sometimes it's hard to spot the link. It may help for her to change birth control methods.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:41 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]

I think koeselitz has missed the point - what is described isn't an explicit or tacit bargain - 'clean up after yourself and I will have sex with you' - it's that a person who doesn't clean up after themselves isn't very attractive. I mean, they might be for a short fling, but in the long run cleaning someone's else's poo up gets a bit old.
posted by communicator at 1:27 AM on June 5 [11 favorites]

That of course may well not apply in this case, but in general this housework issue is often described as a sex-bargain when it is more about mutual respect and caring.
posted by communicator at 1:30 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]

Australian writer Bettina Arndt has written a book - The Sex Diaries - on some aspects of this. Hope it is of some relevance/use.
posted by tim_in_oz at 2:35 AM on June 5

The sex isn't as much the problem as is that it seems like you've been more open about your hurt about this situation and what it means to you w/us than with her, and secondly that she seems unwilling to do something that means so much to do you.

Sex in itself is important, it's one of the things that differentiates intimate relationships from friend relationships, but relationships do survive without it if both parties are uninterested, or there's some medical or circumstantial reason that a couple needs to get on with things without it. That doesn't sound like what's happening here, but my point is that while sex is very important, it's not as important as communicating and allowing yourself to be vulnerable, and it's not as important as occasionally doing some things because they make the other person happy and fulfilled. I assure you, I'm not too psyched about going to see Star Trek next week.

You're probably right about the weight, but if that's affecting her self-esteem and hurting her relationship she needs to do something about it, either by embracing it and getting some sexy clothes that make her curves look great or losing weight. Doesn't matter which, but if that's the problem, she's obligated to do one or the other.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:10 AM on June 5

This book was very helpful when we had some problems similar to the OP and touches on a lot of the points made by various posters above, which might be helpful if you want your wife to think about some of them but don't want to reel off a big list, or tell her about this post. It's also pretty careful to treat this as a marriage problem to be solved by both partners, rather than making it a problem where the low libido partner needs to be "fixed" in some way.
posted by crocomancer at 4:43 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]

The problem is, even if it doesn't set out to be a "helping out more for sex bargain", it can easily morph to that.

OP, you need to sit down with her and have a conversation about this. Not when you are trying to initiate sex. Instead, make a special appointment to sit down and have a discussion. If need be, make some notes before hand, even though that sounds corny. Don't do it in front of the TV or right before bed. Don't attack her, discuss behavior. After you have a frank conversation, it should become obvious what direction you need to go from here. Good luck.

Every relationship can benefit from a regular State of the Union.
posted by Silvertree at 7:26 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]

Depression or illness can kill sex drive. Unfortunately, so can anti-depressants. She should see a doctor. If she's consistently sick, tired, sore, headache-y, she may be ill.

Therapy. Go. Sex is one of the things that make couples keep loving each other; it is the very definition of intimacy. It literally is "making love." You may not end up splitting because of lack of sex, but lack of intimacy may allow you to drift apart. You aren't feeling heard, and we don't know what she's feeling. This is bad for your marriage.
posted by theora55 at 7:34 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]

Other than the sex our relationship is great. She's my closest friend and confidant.

If you feel this way, just get your sex outside of the relationship.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:52 AM on June 5

If your wife is no longer willing to fill those needs, then there is nothing ethically wrong with filling them with someone else.

If you feel this way, just get your sex outside of the relationship.

The justification for infidelity always blows my mind. There is nothing ethically wrong with filling them with someone else ONLY if she is explicitly aware and okay with it. If it is being done on the sly, behind her back, it will ultimately blow up, hurt her tremendously, and your marriage will FOR SURE be done with.

Marriage counseling, NOT infidelity, is the answer.
posted by gwenlister at 7:59 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]

Some thoughts on the recent discussion.

I read somewhere recently that there is no such thing as an equal relationship - that at some points Spouse A may be giving 50% and Spouse B may be be giving 50% and yet somehow 50% of the emotional/physical/sexual work isn't getting done. Someone's gotta step up and say, "Ok, for the sake of the marriage I'm going to give more than my 'share' to keep the peace and harmony." This is especially true if both partners are working outside the home or if there are kids in the equation (or both!) because these take up so much of our energy outside the relationship.

So the OP feels like his wife isn't giving her 50% sexually - is this because she's giving 100% somewhere else? Or maybe she's only got 25% to give at this moment and it's all going towards keeping the "friendship" part of the relationship going? Regardless of the reason, the OP needs to decide if he's willing to do more than his share for now or forever to get things back on track. If he's not willing then I can't see how there can be any result but divorce. We can give hints and advice at what that extra work needs to be - more housework, date night, cooking, going to couple's therapy, working on body image, or whatever - but since we don't know the specifics it seems impossible for us to tell him exactly what to do, other than he's gotta evaluate his priorities.
posted by muddgirl at 9:00 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]

Two more possible causes (although #1 is less likely concerning her age and #2 is just generally not too likely):

#1. So called female mid-life crisis. As I understand it, it manifests itself with increased disatisfaction with one's partner when attention from the opposite sex beyond the marriage diminishes with age. It sometimes does not matter that the husband's compliments, etc.. increases threefold when the rest of the male world is paying ten-fold less attention to her.

#2. Sexuality is a fluid thing. Maybe she's struggling with her sexual identity.


Considering that it sounds like you live in a culture where cheating is not an option, couple counseling sounds like the best idea. Just be prepared that she may not think the problem has anything to do with her.

Kids will not fix this; it will make it worse.
posted by teg4rvn at 9:05 AM on June 5

I'm going to make a very broad generalization here and say that having a clean house is not as important to most men as it is to women. Conversely, sex is less important to many women than it is to men. You, the OP, feel hurt and rejected that she won't have sex with you, because it's important to you, therefore it should be important to her. If, and this is a big if, you aren't contributing as much as she'd like to the housework, she may also feel hurt and rejected because it's important to her, and thus it should be important to you. This is how "he left his dirty dishes in the sink AGAIN" can morph to "I don't feel like having sex with this man who obviously does not consider my wishes with regards to the upkeep of our home."

In other words, it's about consideration rather than the specific chore(s) or specific sexual acts. You do not feel she is being considerate of your needs. She may feel the same - we don't know, and it sounds like neither do you. It may have nothing to do with housework - it may be something else. This is what you need to find out. Unfortunately, you can't pry it out of her. She needs to be able to articulate what she's upset about, and therapy is most likely to help.
posted by desjardins at 9:57 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]

The justification for infidelity always blows my mind. There is nothing ethically wrong with filling them with someone else ONLY if she is explicitly aware and okay with it. If it is being done on the sly, behind her back, it will ultimately blow up, hurt her tremendously, and your marriage will FOR SURE be done with.

It seems entirely reasonable for the OP to inform his wife that if he's not getting it from her he will be getting it somewhere else. Providing for attention to the libido of one's spouse is a marriage obligation.
posted by _Skull_ at 10:11 AM on June 5

Why is it ethically acceptable for your wife to deprive you of something key to your emotional well-being (and which she previously supplied abundantly), but not for you to find it somewhere else in a manner that otherwise preserves a happy marriage?

If it's a key to your emotional well being, doesn't that imply it has to come from someone with whom you're emotionally involved? And if that's the case, doesn't that make it hard to just "get it on the side"? You'll be trying to maintain two complex emotional relationships at the same time, one of them in secret, and eventually it will just get too complicated. One intimate relationship is hard enough...
Plus, what happens when your mistress wants you to leave your wife, or threatens to tell her, etc? When there are real people involved in these relationships it is unlikely to go as simply as you imagine...

I agree with the general advice above that it's more important to stress your actions than your speech - don't concentrate on telling her she's sexy, as that may just sound like you being horny. Show her how much you appreciate her by taking care of stuff around the house, doing little favors for her (without expecting anything, just for fun) - buy flowers for the living room, or make her breakfast or pick up her drycleaning, or install that (whatever, showerhead, bookcase, ceiling fan...) that she had talked about. Focus on making yourself attractive to her, rather than telling her how attractive she is to you. And try to find out if she is depressed / unhappy with things, without making it directly a conversation about your sex life.
posted by mdn at 11:08 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]

I thought about what gets me in the mood, and I had to come back to this thread. I have to disagree with a lot of this "buy her flowers and take her on dates" stuff. Not that there's anything wrong with doing those things just because she likes 'em, but that stuff does not make me want to have sex. I think "spontaneously doing nice things for your partner" should be a given, anyway. I do nice stuff for my guy and I don't think he's thinking "Gee, I should have sex with her now."

They say absence makes the heart grow fonder, and my sex drive actually increases when he's gone more often. He has a hobby that requires physical effort, and it's so sexy when he's gone for a couple of hours and comes home all sweaty. He's also happier, because he's not hanging around me wanting to get laid, looking like a dejected puppy dog (eww). He's doing something that makes him feel more confident. So go do something that makes you feel good in your own skin, which will naturally make you more attractive. When my partner is truly passionate aboout something - even if I don't care for that something - I feel more passion as a result. Excitement is contagious. Also, encourage her to do something that makes her feel alive. These activities do not need to have anything to do with sex whatsoever. Hers should be solely for her, and yours solely for you.

Also also - I don't think it's wrong to flirt with other people, as long as it's clear to the flirtee that that's all it is. It can increase your confidence and knowing that others find you attractive actually helps your wife find you attractive. Then again, establish clear boundaries for yourself so you're not discussing your marital difficulties with the oh-so-understanding cutie in the coffeeshop.
posted by desjardins at 11:25 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]

"It seems entirely reasonable for the OP to inform his wife that if he's not getting it from her he will be getting it somewhere else."

Yes, this is entirely reasonable -- if he's 16 and lacks the maturity and communication skills of an adult. Otherwise they need to have some serious conversations, preferably with the help of a therapist. Then he can decide if he wants to remain in the marriage or "get it somewhere else."
posted by coolguymichael at 12:38 PM on June 5

Ditto desjardins' comment above. Authentically independent and confident men are dead sexy, to wit: Don Draper (minus, you know, the identity theft and infidelity). Mee-yow.
Take her advice about finding something that enlivens you and you could start enjoying more [grilled cheese sandwiches] with your wife.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:10 PM on June 5

I'm just thinking thru a theory that may or may not be part of this, but I know was a factor in relationships in my past.
For lack of a better term, I'll call it a need for autonomy, when the people closest to us expect us to do something and the very expectation makes us resistant. An analogy would be when someone lends you a book that is very important to them, with the almost command of "you got to read this", and for some stupid reason, even though you may really like the book, just getting started with it is like a chore.

When Person A is consciously aware of what Person B wants and it involves A's compliance, it tends to feel like an imposition. While I agree with most of the above, I don't think it's really about autonomy. That's looking at it from a third person perspective. Person A hasn't had the opportunity to desire the goal of B. When A can first experience it as their own idea, and then desire it, there's no resistance. Relative to the OP's question, the advice in the last couple of paragraphs of fightorflight's response is a solid way to give the wife a good opportunity to desire the OP.
posted by BigSky at 5:40 PM on June 6

MuddGirl has a good point. There are strong cultural reasons many western women feel overwhelmed and resentful of the needs of their SOs, despite loving them and wanting that intimacy.

Read this book, it might help.
posted by freya_lamb at 11:47 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]

N-thing, talking, communicating, if that fails, therapy together. To give you just someone else's perspective, for me not feeling like having sex with my partner, not even being able to be open to the idea as suggested in this thread, was me intellectually not wanting to acknowledge I'd fallen out of love and that things were over between us. I was so repressed and out of touch with my emotions that it came to this, and a lot of heartbreak on both sides before I realised what was going on.
I'm certainly not saying this is what happening in your relationship, but I do hope both of you have the strength and courage to get this sorted somehow. Particularly because of the "my closest friend and confidant" bit which raised alarm bells with me...for some this can be a problem: blurring the boundaries between BFF and a mature, romantic relationship.
But please take this for what it is, words from a stranger on the internet who doesn't know you or your wife.
posted by moody cow at 6:14 AM on June 7

Ditto desjardins' comment above. Authentically independent and confident men are dead sexy, to wit: Don Draper (minus, you know, the identity theft and infidelity). Mee-yow.

well, don draper's a lot more attractive to women he's not married to than his wife :). But you're right that independent, confident etc is more attractive than begging, pleading - I was trying to emphasize doing those nice things not with a mind to get something for it, but as a way to make oneself appealing. If you work on being an irresistible partner, which definitely includes doing the boring crap around the house without being asked, that may raise interest naturally.

In other words, approach the problem more broadly as a slump in the marriage, with sex as a symptom, not just thinking of it as a slump in her sex drive. It's possible it isn't indicative of anything deeper, but it often is interconnected, and you mention her claims to be busy and tired, and that she used to be very sex-minded, so I'd start there.
posted by mdn at 9:00 AM on June 7

The New York Times has a good article.
posted by theora55 at 10:19 AM on June 7