Three's a crowd: my BF, his ex, and I
December 2, 2008 11:14 AM Subscribe
Should I forgive his secretive contact with his ex-girlfriend?
So...in my continuing involuntary quest to accumulate the worst dating experiences ever:
I was at work with my Sig Other last weekend, when another coworker approached him in front of me and asked him about his girlfriend, clearly not referring to me. Sig Other stumbled a bit and explained they had broken up a while back, to which Co-worker said, "What? I just saw you two together last week!" Sig Other replied, "Uh, that was just for that one time."
This is the point at which I started to feel like shit.
The full story: they dated for 2.5 years, they lived together for a few months, ending last May (we began dating in late June/early July). He broke things off with her. Their last physical encounter was in February but they apparently lived together for a bit after breaking up until she found a place to live in another city. Since then, she calls every few weeks and they go out for drinks or dinner every four to six weeks-ish. Sig Other acknowledged that she kept trying to stay living with him to continue the relationship, which he didn't want to do. So there's history of her hanging onto him.
Bonus: she doesn't know about me. I didn't know about their phone calls or outings, and the crazy thing is, I'd've been at peace with them if he'd've told me about them beforehand. But to inadvertently find out from a coworker is just...humiliating.
He says: she initiates the contact, he does not. He says they are simply friends and there has been no physical contact between them since February, although she did stay overnight at his home in August (in a separate bedroom) when her sister came to visit his city with her kids for a tourist weekend. (Don't get me started.) Since that happened very early on in our dating history - about a month after we started dating - I think I'll give him a pass on that one.
His history: Sig Other has Nice Guy Syndrome. Can't say no because he feels guilty about breaking up with her, is trying to let her down gently, thinks he is being nice by randomly meeting up with her. I say this is bullshit and that by continuing to meet with her, he's giving her false hope and he's disrespecting me, particularly by not telling her about my existence. He did not tell me about her, he says, because he's had jealous girlfriends in the past and was worried I'd flip out and break up with him even though there is nothing going on between them. Well, I wouldn't have flipped out had he told me about her as I'm not so much the jealous type. But now I'm fuckin' mad/hurt about the lying and omissions.
The current status: he wants to continue seeing me and wants me to forgive him. He has apologized and agreed to cut contact with her altogether. He has told me he will answer any questions I have about her and I've made full use of that. Although I'm insanely pissed, I do give him props for coming clean with me (e.g., admitting she stayed with him overnight, acknowledging how often they're in contact, as well as acknowledging he did "what was easiest" for him in this whole situation - e.g., being secretive so as not to start a fight with me). Theoretically, he could've lied and told me he hadn't seen her since last spring, but he didn't.
Here's the problem: I love him. I do want to make this work, but not at the risk of my soul being sucked out. I'm no doormat, but I'm also a fairly forgiving person. And I do believe him when he says nothing's going on with her physically, it's more the lying that eats at me.
Am I insane for even considering forgiving him? Has anyone been through this before and is this just a full blown sack of lies? Can trust be rebuilt after something like this?
Any other thoughts/advice relevant to this cluster appreciated.
So...in my continuing involuntary quest to accumulate the worst dating experiences ever:
I was at work with my Sig Other last weekend, when another coworker approached him in front of me and asked him about his girlfriend, clearly not referring to me. Sig Other stumbled a bit and explained they had broken up a while back, to which Co-worker said, "What? I just saw you two together last week!" Sig Other replied, "Uh, that was just for that one time."
This is the point at which I started to feel like shit.
The full story: they dated for 2.5 years, they lived together for a few months, ending last May (we began dating in late June/early July). He broke things off with her. Their last physical encounter was in February but they apparently lived together for a bit after breaking up until she found a place to live in another city. Since then, she calls every few weeks and they go out for drinks or dinner every four to six weeks-ish. Sig Other acknowledged that she kept trying to stay living with him to continue the relationship, which he didn't want to do. So there's history of her hanging onto him.
Bonus: she doesn't know about me. I didn't know about their phone calls or outings, and the crazy thing is, I'd've been at peace with them if he'd've told me about them beforehand. But to inadvertently find out from a coworker is just...humiliating.
He says: she initiates the contact, he does not. He says they are simply friends and there has been no physical contact between them since February, although she did stay overnight at his home in August (in a separate bedroom) when her sister came to visit his city with her kids for a tourist weekend. (Don't get me started.) Since that happened very early on in our dating history - about a month after we started dating - I think I'll give him a pass on that one.
His history: Sig Other has Nice Guy Syndrome. Can't say no because he feels guilty about breaking up with her, is trying to let her down gently, thinks he is being nice by randomly meeting up with her. I say this is bullshit and that by continuing to meet with her, he's giving her false hope and he's disrespecting me, particularly by not telling her about my existence. He did not tell me about her, he says, because he's had jealous girlfriends in the past and was worried I'd flip out and break up with him even though there is nothing going on between them. Well, I wouldn't have flipped out had he told me about her as I'm not so much the jealous type. But now I'm fuckin' mad/hurt about the lying and omissions.
The current status: he wants to continue seeing me and wants me to forgive him. He has apologized and agreed to cut contact with her altogether. He has told me he will answer any questions I have about her and I've made full use of that. Although I'm insanely pissed, I do give him props for coming clean with me (e.g., admitting she stayed with him overnight, acknowledging how often they're in contact, as well as acknowledging he did "what was easiest" for him in this whole situation - e.g., being secretive so as not to start a fight with me). Theoretically, he could've lied and told me he hadn't seen her since last spring, but he didn't.
Here's the problem: I love him. I do want to make this work, but not at the risk of my soul being sucked out. I'm no doormat, but I'm also a fairly forgiving person. And I do believe him when he says nothing's going on with her physically, it's more the lying that eats at me.
Am I insane for even considering forgiving him? Has anyone been through this before and is this just a full blown sack of lies? Can trust be rebuilt after something like this?
Any other thoughts/advice relevant to this cluster appreciated.
It's entirely possible that it is just what he says it is - his inept attempt to rid himself of an over-needy ex-girlfriend without causing any friction. You need to sit him down and explain why this approach is not helping said ex, and is in fact just leading her to believe there's still something there. And to make matters worse he's keeping things from you that he really shouldn't. So you need to make it very clear that you are a very reasonable person with very reasonable expectations and that about the only thing that is going to make you flip is secrecy.
Reestablishing trust might be difficult, but you're the only one here who can really say whether he deserves a second chance.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 11:24 AM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
Reestablishing trust might be difficult, but you're the only one here who can really say whether he deserves a second chance.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 11:24 AM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
Yes, of course you can forgive him. This is no big deal. However, it does indicate that your man is a little wishy-washy and tries to avoid confrontation. Do you like that?
posted by footnote at 11:25 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by footnote at 11:25 AM on December 2, 2008
Best answer: Theoretically, he could've lied and told me he hadn't seen her since last spring, but he didn't.
He did lie. About all this stuff. For months. Until somebody else forced him to tell the truth. And then to say that he didn't tell you "because he's had jealous girlfriends in the past and was worried I'd flip out and break up with him"? How can he truly love you if he can't even tell the difference between you and a crazy person? It's all completely unacceptable, in my opinion.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:30 AM on December 2, 2008 [15 favorites]
He did lie. About all this stuff. For months. Until somebody else forced him to tell the truth. And then to say that he didn't tell you "because he's had jealous girlfriends in the past and was worried I'd flip out and break up with him"? How can he truly love you if he can't even tell the difference between you and a crazy person? It's all completely unacceptable, in my opinion.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:30 AM on December 2, 2008 [15 favorites]
He did not tell me about her, he says, because he's had jealous girlfriends in the past and was worried I'd flip out and break up with him even though there is nothing going on between them.
Well, wait - this doesn't explain why he didn't tell her about you. If there is nothing going on, why would he not tell her he's dating someone else? DTMFA.
posted by desjardins at 11:31 AM on December 2, 2008 [6 favorites]
Well, wait - this doesn't explain why he didn't tell her about you. If there is nothing going on, why would he not tell her he's dating someone else? DTMFA.
posted by desjardins at 11:31 AM on December 2, 2008 [6 favorites]
Personally, I think that your reaction is quite appropriate, but I still vote for forgiving and forgetting. At 5 months into the relationship, you have been dating for a pretty short time. Their relationship sounds innocent, and he probably just didn't know how to bring it up to you, especially considering that you may or may not still be in the early stages of impressing/getting to know each other. Talking about ex-girlfriend baggage is never particularly attractive, and I understand why he avoided it in light of having bad experiences with jealous women in the past.
Finding out from a coworker must have sucked not just for you, but for him as well. Let's hope that he learned a lesson from it and that he will be more open with you in the future. Make sure that you discuss with him why this hurt you so much in order to avoid harboring toxic resentment toward him. In other words, if you tell him you forgive him, be sure to really do so.
posted by halogen at 11:32 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Finding out from a coworker must have sucked not just for you, but for him as well. Let's hope that he learned a lesson from it and that he will be more open with you in the future. Make sure that you discuss with him why this hurt you so much in order to avoid harboring toxic resentment toward him. In other words, if you tell him you forgive him, be sure to really do so.
posted by halogen at 11:32 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Bonus: she doesn't know about me.
Holy cow, I missed this the first time around. What the hell? No. Just no. Dump him. He can go back to her, since he obviously likes her so much.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:37 AM on December 2, 2008 [9 favorites]
Holy cow, I missed this the first time around. What the hell? No. Just no. Dump him. He can go back to her, since he obviously likes her so much.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:37 AM on December 2, 2008 [9 favorites]
Dump his ass. Him hanging out with her? No biggie. Him not telling you about it? Forgivable, as long as you can trust him. Him not telliing her that you exist? Dealbreaker. He's obviously not totally through with this girl, in some way or another.
posted by emd3737 at 11:41 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by emd3737 at 11:41 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I'm not defendin', just sayin': his pattern is to be very non-confrontational, so his not telling her about me comes as no surprise. It fits perfectly in line with pattern. He feels guilty about breaking up with her and telling her about me would incur hurt on her part, so as Nice Guy, he just couldn't tell her IMHO.
posted by December at 11:41 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by December at 11:41 AM on December 2, 2008
There's shadiness, and then there's dumbassery, and this does sort of sound like the latter but that doesn't mean you have to stay with him. That's some pretty lame lengths just to avoid either you or her being mad at him, and that kind of doormat behavior does not generally produce stellar relationships.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:41 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by Lyn Never at 11:41 AM on December 2, 2008
Do not stay in a relationship out of inertia.
He didn't do an insanely shitty thing but wouldn't you rather be single and seeking a relationship with a person that communicates and does things not because other people tell/expect him to, but because he feels it is the right choice for himself?
posted by spec80 at 11:50 AM on December 2, 2008
He didn't do an insanely shitty thing but wouldn't you rather be single and seeking a relationship with a person that communicates and does things not because other people tell/expect him to, but because he feels it is the right choice for himself?
posted by spec80 at 11:50 AM on December 2, 2008
If he comes clean to her about you, I'd consider forgiving him. But he has to tell her, and you should be a witness to that. That would go a long way to rebuilding your trust. I'm not saying he should take you to meet her, but perhaps a phone call with you in the room would be the way to go. Not many people like confrontation, but if he's serious about the two of you, he'll suck it up and do it.
posted by cooker girl at 11:51 AM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 11:51 AM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
I dunno. My most recent ex tried to off himself after I broke up with him, and I've been pretty careful of his feelings after that point. Not that I think it a) shows you any respect, or b) is honest. But it could be coming from a place of genuine desire for everything to end well for everyone.
That said, I'm very up front with my current boyfriend about the long-term relationship I had with the ex, and the fact that I want to remain on good terms with him, but also that he has no reason to worry because I ended it and I don't regret it.
posted by greekphilosophy at 11:53 AM on December 2, 2008
That said, I'm very up front with my current boyfriend about the long-term relationship I had with the ex, and the fact that I want to remain on good terms with him, but also that he has no reason to worry because I ended it and I don't regret it.
posted by greekphilosophy at 11:53 AM on December 2, 2008
his pattern is to be very non-confrontational,
This is not a good trait in a long-term mate. Do you want to be frustrated and silently fuming when he fails to say no to his mother/his boss/the neighbors with the dog who barks at 3 am/the best friend who needs a babysitter for their toddler with Norwalk virus?
posted by pointystick at 11:53 AM on December 2, 2008
This is not a good trait in a long-term mate. Do you want to be frustrated and silently fuming when he fails to say no to his mother/his boss/the neighbors with the dog who barks at 3 am/the best friend who needs a babysitter for their toddler with Norwalk virus?
posted by pointystick at 11:53 AM on December 2, 2008
...thinks he is being nice by randomly meeting up with her. I say this is bullshit...
You're right, it is bullshit. He's doing this for himself, not for her. He doesn't want to let go, hasn't gotten over that relationship, and her persistent interest in him provides him the excuse to indefinitely defer that process of letting go. It lets him feel better while imagining he's being kind to someone else.
Beyond that, my reaction to the story is that this guy isn't fully available yet, to you or to anyone else.
posted by jon1270 at 11:53 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
You're right, it is bullshit. He's doing this for himself, not for her. He doesn't want to let go, hasn't gotten over that relationship, and her persistent interest in him provides him the excuse to indefinitely defer that process of letting go. It lets him feel better while imagining he's being kind to someone else.
Beyond that, my reaction to the story is that this guy isn't fully available yet, to you or to anyone else.
posted by jon1270 at 11:53 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
So, last summer I had lunch with one of my ex's and my wife. I talk to other ex-girlfriends occassionaly and have no problem telling Mrs. Director about it because I know she won't freak out.
Consider that he didn't tell you to avoid the very reaction you are demonstrating. Just a thought.
posted by trinity8-director at 11:55 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Consider that he didn't tell you to avoid the very reaction you are demonstrating. Just a thought.
posted by trinity8-director at 11:55 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'd sort of go with a forgive but, for now, don't forget approach. It does sound like he still has some kind of attachment to his ex. Maybe it's affection, maybe it's just misplaced responsibility, but it's there. That, of course, ain't cool. However, the act itself falls just shy of what I'd call Instant Dump Land (although him not telling her about you is a veeeeery close thing). So if you really love him and feel like he can work to regain your trust, forgive him. But make it super clear that he knows what he did wrong, how you feel about it, and what kind of treatment you deserve and expect in the future.
Make sure he knows this is a one time only second chance. Anything that even suggests duplicity (on any subject, not just ex related ones) in the future will probably break that trust forever. Also, I'd point out that his very non-confrontational pattern has officially had a negative consequence. You probably don't want to be with a person who does dumb or hurtful things to you because he just goes with any ol' flow. Since that's how he's always operated, he may sort of think that because he didn't do the hurtful thing on purpose or with malice, that kind of absolves him of some responsibility. Clearly, that isn't true, so that may be something you want encourage him to work on.
posted by mostlymartha at 11:56 AM on December 2, 2008
Make sure he knows this is a one time only second chance. Anything that even suggests duplicity (on any subject, not just ex related ones) in the future will probably break that trust forever. Also, I'd point out that his very non-confrontational pattern has officially had a negative consequence. You probably don't want to be with a person who does dumb or hurtful things to you because he just goes with any ol' flow. Since that's how he's always operated, he may sort of think that because he didn't do the hurtful thing on purpose or with malice, that kind of absolves him of some responsibility. Clearly, that isn't true, so that may be something you want encourage him to work on.
posted by mostlymartha at 11:56 AM on December 2, 2008
And stop calling him a Nice Guy! Nice guys do not lie to their girlfriends, or to people they used to go out with that they still consider friends. On behalf of all the actual nice guys in the world, I command you to stop using his being "nice" as an excuse for him being a liar.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:03 PM on December 2, 2008 [9 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:03 PM on December 2, 2008 [9 favorites]
Are you really willing to tolerate a guy who can't even be honest about the other women he's spending time with?
To tolerate dishonesty like that would be to have zero self-respect.
posted by jayder at 12:05 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
To tolerate dishonesty like that would be to have zero self-respect.
posted by jayder at 12:05 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Bonus: she doesn't know about me.
Thanks to this, I was going to throw out the 'DTMFA' but then you did talk about his 'nice guy tendencies'. As a recovering nice guy, it sounds he could be on the level about the whole thing and just royally fucked up by trying to be everyone's friend all the time and avoid confrontation. Or he could be a liar that was keeping his ex going for ego kicks, sex or possibly other motives.
You know him more than we do. I'd say that 'I love him' goes quite a long way to give someone a chance. I think most people deserve a second chance. Never a third.
Also, being non-confrontational might not be a good trait but I don't consider it, in and of itself, a reason to leave someone you have genuine feelings for. It's easy to have exacting standards when commenting on other people's relationships online but the real world thankfully has more leeway.
posted by slimepuppy at 12:05 PM on December 2, 2008
Thanks to this, I was going to throw out the 'DTMFA' but then you did talk about his 'nice guy tendencies'. As a recovering nice guy, it sounds he could be on the level about the whole thing and just royally fucked up by trying to be everyone's friend all the time and avoid confrontation. Or he could be a liar that was keeping his ex going for ego kicks, sex or possibly other motives.
You know him more than we do. I'd say that 'I love him' goes quite a long way to give someone a chance. I think most people deserve a second chance. Never a third.
Also, being non-confrontational might not be a good trait but I don't consider it, in and of itself, a reason to leave someone you have genuine feelings for. It's easy to have exacting standards when commenting on other people's relationships online but the real world thankfully has more leeway.
posted by slimepuppy at 12:05 PM on December 2, 2008
As a guy who has gotten out of a few 2.5/3 year relationships I can say that from my own experience ending a relationship that has gone on that long (esp. with the living together) in may and getting into a new one in june seems like nowhere near enough time to deal with all the emotions that come with a relationship like that ending in a way that allows for a new relationship to be built on solid ground. He hasn't really said good bye. their relationship may have changed (ie not sleeping together) but their is obviously the emotional aspect/connection/attachment still in play.
That said, what you do I guess would depend entirely on what you want. If you are happy with things the way they then do nothing, but odds are if he is still seeing her he is still getting something from her - whether that's emotional or physical or whatever. If he is hiding it, he may still be hoping for some sort of resolution.
posted by jeffe at 12:06 PM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
That said, what you do I guess would depend entirely on what you want. If you are happy with things the way they then do nothing, but odds are if he is still seeing her he is still getting something from her - whether that's emotional or physical or whatever. If he is hiding it, he may still be hoping for some sort of resolution.
posted by jeffe at 12:06 PM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
I've known a couple of nonconfrontational people, and this sounds exactly like something they would do. I don't think it means he's fooling around on you. It means he's a bit of a wuss and could use some enhanced communication skills. You care a lot about him, and so I don't blame you for wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt, and it sounds to me like the situation warrants it. It's a pretty big relationship mess-up, but for me, it wouldn't be a dealbreaker. However, it would be our First Big Serious Relationship Conversation.
MostlyMartha says everything I would say. First, make it clear that the ex-gf needs to know that you are the girlfriend now and that your relationship is serious. Second, ask him to stop seeing her and communicating with her out of respect for you and to allow her to get over him and let go. Ask if there is anything else he needs to tell you. Let him know that you are willing to extend some understanding and overlook it, but that this kind of behavior is not going to fly with you in the future. He may not have meant any ill - I doubt he did - but he really does need to learn that in grown-up relationships you need to be honest and accountable for your actions, and you need to treat your partner with respect, which means not doing things and seeing people you don't want them to know about.
It just sounds like he is really clueless about how to act and doesn't want to upset anybody. That's sweet and all, but it really doesn't work as a long-term life strategy if you want to have real commitments. Forgive him this time, but not [if there is a] next time, and meanwhile, make your own boundaries very clear to him.
posted by Miko at 12:11 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
MostlyMartha says everything I would say. First, make it clear that the ex-gf needs to know that you are the girlfriend now and that your relationship is serious. Second, ask him to stop seeing her and communicating with her out of respect for you and to allow her to get over him and let go. Ask if there is anything else he needs to tell you. Let him know that you are willing to extend some understanding and overlook it, but that this kind of behavior is not going to fly with you in the future. He may not have meant any ill - I doubt he did - but he really does need to learn that in grown-up relationships you need to be honest and accountable for your actions, and you need to treat your partner with respect, which means not doing things and seeing people you don't want them to know about.
It just sounds like he is really clueless about how to act and doesn't want to upset anybody. That's sweet and all, but it really doesn't work as a long-term life strategy if you want to have real commitments. Forgive him this time, but not [if there is a] next time, and meanwhile, make your own boundaries very clear to him.
posted by Miko at 12:11 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Put him on probation. Monitor closely.
posted by poppo at 12:13 PM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by poppo at 12:13 PM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I'm sorry to say this, but he is a liar and his secrecy is going to make you feel terrible down the line. It's better that you break up with him and don't make excuses for his behavior. It's very disrespectful to you and your relationship that he do this and lie to you.
posted by anniecat at 12:15 PM on December 2, 2008
posted by anniecat at 12:15 PM on December 2, 2008
Look, it's really simple. Tell him that you'd like to meet the ex. She'll get the picture, he'll have to grow some stones and tell this girl that he'd like for her to meet you. If he's willing to let her live in his place and waffle back and forth, in the long term, they might well become friends. You don't have to be really heavyhanded about it - just tell him you'd like to get to know her as his friend. She is his friend, right? It doesn't have to be a sort of rub it in her face session - you don't have to sit in his lap and lick his cheek the whole time. But you all meeting for coffee and maybe seeing a movie together? What's wrong with that? Particularly if you're as reasonable and levelheaded as you seem to be in your post...
Anyway, the minute you suggest this meeting, you'll have your answer. If he gets all cagey about it, and gives you all sorts of excuses about not being ready for that and not wanting to possibly hurt her, he's full of it. Because you're approaching it as him being friends with her, right? Same as wanting to meet any of his other friends? If you're dating and she's using his house as an occasional residence, you have every right to meet her. That isn't paranoid crazy stuff, that's just common sense. Especially if he's a guy who's had jealous girlfriends (which you are not, btw)... it would be second nature to him to head all that off at the pass by having you meet the girl staying at his place to avoid any possible scenes/accusations/drama.
If he's a little nervous but understands what you're saying about meeting friends (and helping to nicely let her know he's kinda with someone else right now), and goes for the meetup, then you also have your answer.
I smell bullshit in this, but it might well be benign bullshit. I think he's not sure himself what's going on and is enjoying having the best of both worlds. He might not be sleeping with her, but he's basically dating both of you. I mean, how long did she live at his place? How much effort did he have to go to to supress the reality that he's dating someone else while she was there?
If you're willing to put up with a guy who can't draw lines, even gently, and you're OK with that, it's up to you. But if he's this way with an ex gf, I can't imagine what he'd be like trying to decide what kind of car to buy. It might be just the way he is. Is that what you want?
posted by Grrlscout at 12:16 PM on December 2, 2008 [4 favorites]
Anyway, the minute you suggest this meeting, you'll have your answer. If he gets all cagey about it, and gives you all sorts of excuses about not being ready for that and not wanting to possibly hurt her, he's full of it. Because you're approaching it as him being friends with her, right? Same as wanting to meet any of his other friends? If you're dating and she's using his house as an occasional residence, you have every right to meet her. That isn't paranoid crazy stuff, that's just common sense. Especially if he's a guy who's had jealous girlfriends (which you are not, btw)... it would be second nature to him to head all that off at the pass by having you meet the girl staying at his place to avoid any possible scenes/accusations/drama.
If he's a little nervous but understands what you're saying about meeting friends (and helping to nicely let her know he's kinda with someone else right now), and goes for the meetup, then you also have your answer.
I smell bullshit in this, but it might well be benign bullshit. I think he's not sure himself what's going on and is enjoying having the best of both worlds. He might not be sleeping with her, but he's basically dating both of you. I mean, how long did she live at his place? How much effort did he have to go to to supress the reality that he's dating someone else while she was there?
If you're willing to put up with a guy who can't draw lines, even gently, and you're OK with that, it's up to you. But if he's this way with an ex gf, I can't imagine what he'd be like trying to decide what kind of car to buy. It might be just the way he is. Is that what you want?
posted by Grrlscout at 12:16 PM on December 2, 2008 [4 favorites]
Look, objectively his behavior is completely ridiculous. However, some people have really never been called on their bullshit, and they just don't understand how to enforce appropriate boundaries with exes, or even know what those boundaries should be. It sounds like you're mighty mad, and if this fight with you helps him realize "oh, good partners don't stay in secret contact with their exes," then great.
I was (sort of) in his position once, and after being called on it, I never, ever talked with my ex again, which was the absolute right thing to do for me and my situation. The incident completely changed how I behaved in relationships, and it sounds silly writing this, but it changed my life. So, if he seems truly sorry, truly honest, and prepared to make a change in his behavior, I think it's okay to stay together with him. But you need to run away fast if you for one second suspect he's not being 100% honest. No discussion, no second guessing, no 'but-I-love-him,' you need to be out the door like you mean it.
posted by robinpME at 12:18 PM on December 2, 2008
I was (sort of) in his position once, and after being called on it, I never, ever talked with my ex again, which was the absolute right thing to do for me and my situation. The incident completely changed how I behaved in relationships, and it sounds silly writing this, but it changed my life. So, if he seems truly sorry, truly honest, and prepared to make a change in his behavior, I think it's okay to stay together with him. But you need to run away fast if you for one second suspect he's not being 100% honest. No discussion, no second guessing, no 'but-I-love-him,' you need to be out the door like you mean it.
posted by robinpME at 12:18 PM on December 2, 2008
Best answer: I don't believe the whole "she slept in the other room" business, to be honest. No ex-girlfriend stays overnight to sleep in the other room. She came for something she needed/wanted and was successful because he's too much of "a nice guy" to say no.
You might benefit from taking an extended break from him until he gets it together. You might love him, but he's not reciprocating. He's enjoying two relationships at once.
posted by anniecat at 12:19 PM on December 2, 2008 [6 favorites]
You might benefit from taking an extended break from him until he gets it together. You might love him, but he's not reciprocating. He's enjoying two relationships at once.
posted by anniecat at 12:19 PM on December 2, 2008 [6 favorites]
Well, if he has "Nice Guy Syndrome", it sounds like it doesn't extend to you. Not telling her about you/not telling you about here are seriously shitty things to do!
Do you feel that you will be able to trust him in the future? Your relationship is pretty new, so if this were my man, he'd be gone. But that's just me.
posted by smalls at 12:23 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Do you feel that you will be able to trust him in the future? Your relationship is pretty new, so if this were my man, he'd be gone. But that's just me.
posted by smalls at 12:23 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
uhh... oops I kind of massacred that sentence up there. I just was trying to say that it is Not Okay to leave out those kind of details in your relationship. Any by not telling his ex about you, he's definitely into head-messing-with territory.
posted by smalls at 12:25 PM on December 2, 2008
posted by smalls at 12:25 PM on December 2, 2008
I am totally with TPS on this one. I am so sorry you are going through this, but I would stick my nose in the air and ask him why on earth I would want to continue under the circumstances? I think we have to insist on people treating us honestly and with respect, and there should be consequences when people don't do so...and those consequences should include deprivation of your company. I think a really good guy who was into you would be all, "Oh, crap, I'm so sorry; you are right! What can I do to correct this error???"
How would he feel if you had done the same? I sometimes think there is so much pressure for women to "be cool" about things that really are violations of the appropriate boundaries and behavior. When you think about your image of real, awesome love, and what you want in a partner, does it include the capacity to do this?
I dunno, I would hold out for someone whose behavior doesn't activate your spidey sense. Not that it is easy, especially when you have feelings for someone...but this just seems like one of those things you look back on and are all, "Dang! Why didn't I listen to my intuition?"
How are you going to feel going forward? It is one thing to trust someone when they've given you no reason not to, but if it were me, I would wonder what he was doing at times when I wasn't with him.
This sounds super difficult and I wish you luck...listen to yourself - you know, deep down, what the right thing is. I know it is so incredibly hard to get to it sometimes.
posted by Punctual at 12:30 PM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
How would he feel if you had done the same? I sometimes think there is so much pressure for women to "be cool" about things that really are violations of the appropriate boundaries and behavior. When you think about your image of real, awesome love, and what you want in a partner, does it include the capacity to do this?
I dunno, I would hold out for someone whose behavior doesn't activate your spidey sense. Not that it is easy, especially when you have feelings for someone...but this just seems like one of those things you look back on and are all, "Dang! Why didn't I listen to my intuition?"
How are you going to feel going forward? It is one thing to trust someone when they've given you no reason not to, but if it were me, I would wonder what he was doing at times when I wasn't with him.
This sounds super difficult and I wish you luck...listen to yourself - you know, deep down, what the right thing is. I know it is so incredibly hard to get to it sometimes.
posted by Punctual at 12:30 PM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
No one is really in a good position to tell you what to do, but I can say what I'd do in your position.
IF I was deeply in love with him...
IF I really believed that he was sorry...
IF I really believed he had learned his lesson and would not do this again...
IF I had made it clear to him that "two strikes means you're out" and IF I feel he understands that and is ready to commit to making things work...
THEN I would stay with him and give him another chance. Which really means giving him and you another chance. Because you can't make yourself forgive him. You can say "I forgive you," but that doesn't magically stop your anger and hurt (or his shame, guilt, problem with being wishy-washy, etc.). So you just take it on trust that -- given the fact that you and he now have a new, better understanding -- things will improve. But this is the ultimatum. No third chances.
One thing I would discard is any side-track about what you "should" do. A few things in your post made me think that you're worried -- as people often are -- about some sort of "template" of how men and women should behave, about not being a doormat, about standing up for yourself, etc. If you're standing up for yourself because it makes you feel better to do so, then stand up for yourself. If you're doing it because It's The Right Thing To Do, then you're living by some sort of rule system rather than looking clearly at this particular circumstance and these particular two people.
posted by grumblebee at 12:30 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
IF I was deeply in love with him...
IF I really believed that he was sorry...
IF I really believed he had learned his lesson and would not do this again...
IF I had made it clear to him that "two strikes means you're out" and IF I feel he understands that and is ready to commit to making things work...
THEN I would stay with him and give him another chance. Which really means giving him and you another chance. Because you can't make yourself forgive him. You can say "I forgive you," but that doesn't magically stop your anger and hurt (or his shame, guilt, problem with being wishy-washy, etc.). So you just take it on trust that -- given the fact that you and he now have a new, better understanding -- things will improve. But this is the ultimatum. No third chances.
One thing I would discard is any side-track about what you "should" do. A few things in your post made me think that you're worried -- as people often are -- about some sort of "template" of how men and women should behave, about not being a doormat, about standing up for yourself, etc. If you're standing up for yourself because it makes you feel better to do so, then stand up for yourself. If you're doing it because It's The Right Thing To Do, then you're living by some sort of rule system rather than looking clearly at this particular circumstance and these particular two people.
posted by grumblebee at 12:30 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Tell him he needs to sack up and tell her about you, and then make it very clear to her that they are over, and their friendship is inappropriate considering their current emotional states.
I would also take a few weeks off so he can be sure of where his bread is buttered and you have an opportunity to step back and look at this objectively.
Then forgive, and move on if it still feels like it is worth it.
posted by BobbyDigital at 12:30 PM on December 2, 2008
I would also take a few weeks off so he can be sure of where his bread is buttered and you have an opportunity to step back and look at this objectively.
Then forgive, and move on if it still feels like it is worth it.
posted by BobbyDigital at 12:30 PM on December 2, 2008
Consider that he didn't tell you to avoid the very reaction you are demonstrating. Just a thought.
Right. Because one should only be honest if one doesn't have to deal with the unpleasant repercussions of one's former dishonesty.
But this level of lie, at five months in? And she doesn't know about you? Man, usually I'm not a fan of ultimatums, but if you don't want to DTMFA, I would demand that she's told about your relationship immediately. If he won't come clean to her (and why not?) then I'd seriously consider what you're doing with this dude, and whether it's worth it.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:33 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Right. Because one should only be honest if one doesn't have to deal with the unpleasant repercussions of one's former dishonesty.
But this level of lie, at five months in? And she doesn't know about you? Man, usually I'm not a fan of ultimatums, but if you don't want to DTMFA, I would demand that she's told about your relationship immediately. If he won't come clean to her (and why not?) then I'd seriously consider what you're doing with this dude, and whether it's worth it.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:33 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Best answer: He is fucking both of you, and if he's not, he's doing it wrong because he could be.
Here's a guy who has kept his visits with his ex SECRET from you. If it was an innocent correspondence and meeting he would have told you about it, if only to set your mind at ease.
Further, she doesn't know about you! Why not? What's the point of innocently meeting an ex to catch up when you don't tell them that you're dating someone new? That's not catching up, that's omitting significant personal facts for an end - in this case he probably knows that his ex won't get down on it if she knows he is stringing some other girl along.
I'm no doormat, but I'm also a fairly forgiving person.
Forgive mistakes. Forgive accidents. Forgive weakness. But don't forgive purposeful manipulation and deceit.
Here's the problem: I love him.
The problem is that you're so afraid of being alone that it's made you incapable of standing up for yourself.
You love this guy? So what? People fall in love every day. I love my stereo, but if told me lies I'd throw it out the window.
You should love yourself first, and get away from this guy.
posted by wfrgms at 12:34 PM on December 2, 2008 [11 favorites]
Here's a guy who has kept his visits with his ex SECRET from you. If it was an innocent correspondence and meeting he would have told you about it, if only to set your mind at ease.
Further, she doesn't know about you! Why not? What's the point of innocently meeting an ex to catch up when you don't tell them that you're dating someone new? That's not catching up, that's omitting significant personal facts for an end - in this case he probably knows that his ex won't get down on it if she knows he is stringing some other girl along.
I'm no doormat, but I'm also a fairly forgiving person.
Forgive mistakes. Forgive accidents. Forgive weakness. But don't forgive purposeful manipulation and deceit.
Here's the problem: I love him.
The problem is that you're so afraid of being alone that it's made you incapable of standing up for yourself.
You love this guy? So what? People fall in love every day. I love my stereo, but if told me lies I'd throw it out the window.
You should love yourself first, and get away from this guy.
posted by wfrgms at 12:34 PM on December 2, 2008 [11 favorites]
Best answer: Sig Other has Nice Guy Syndrome.
There is no such thing as the "Nice Guy Syndrome". What you are describing is not a nice guy - in fact, it is the opposite. It is a guy who has no confidence, will, or backbone of his own. This fellow that you are dating, who you love, doesn't really love you. What he loves is not having any sort of confrontations that will make him be the "bad guy". To him, being a bad guy means having people not like him. So this is a guy who, rather than take the risk of saying "HEY WORLD, I'M DATING DECEMBER" he instead pretends to still be dating his ex girlfriend, showing the world that he likes to have many girlfriends. (If the coworker didn't know about you, then not many people do know about you). He might pretend that he doesn't like this situation but he does. He is not too shy for confrontation - he is too shy to not have his own personal harem and, congratulations, you are now part of that harem. If he really was a "Nice Guy" or had confrontation issues or whatever, you wouldn't exist in his life. In fact, he'd still be living with that other girl. If he had the capability to dump her and kick her out of their apartment, he has the capability now to dump her, not see her, and, above all, be honest with you about his life. He has shown you that he is incapable of doing that.
He doesn't have "jealous girlfriends" or "jealous exs" who get mad at him. What he has is a history of not dumping his ex girlfriends, of keeping relationships with them, of leading them on, and of pretending to "not want to hurt others". You're right that he's leading them on. You're right that it should make you mad. But he isn't a Nice Guy.
If you do break up with him, his relationship with his ex won't change and, instead, you will be labeled as "one of his jealous girlfriends". It's funny how he doesn't see this behavior as the problem - rather he sees his "jealous girlfriends" as the problem. They're the ones that went crazy, they're the ones that dumped him. He's trying to be the victim, to play you as a fool (and he is playing you as a fool) problem and there is nothing in your question that shows his behavior is going to change and that he acknowledges it at all.
There is no such thing as "Nice Guy Syndrome". The fact that people believe that just shows that there is a bunch of guys out there who have convince women that they don't deserve to have men in their lives who will take the risk to be with them. He lied to you. He lied by omission. She slept at his house. They never broke up - I bet the ex even labels it as "taking a break". You're dating a guy who has at least 2 girlfriends right now. If you're cool with that, forgive him. If you're not, dump his sorry worthless ass right now.
posted by Stynxno at 12:35 PM on December 2, 2008 [25 favorites]
There is no such thing as the "Nice Guy Syndrome". What you are describing is not a nice guy - in fact, it is the opposite. It is a guy who has no confidence, will, or backbone of his own. This fellow that you are dating, who you love, doesn't really love you. What he loves is not having any sort of confrontations that will make him be the "bad guy". To him, being a bad guy means having people not like him. So this is a guy who, rather than take the risk of saying "HEY WORLD, I'M DATING DECEMBER" he instead pretends to still be dating his ex girlfriend, showing the world that he likes to have many girlfriends. (If the coworker didn't know about you, then not many people do know about you). He might pretend that he doesn't like this situation but he does. He is not too shy for confrontation - he is too shy to not have his own personal harem and, congratulations, you are now part of that harem. If he really was a "Nice Guy" or had confrontation issues or whatever, you wouldn't exist in his life. In fact, he'd still be living with that other girl. If he had the capability to dump her and kick her out of their apartment, he has the capability now to dump her, not see her, and, above all, be honest with you about his life. He has shown you that he is incapable of doing that.
He doesn't have "jealous girlfriends" or "jealous exs" who get mad at him. What he has is a history of not dumping his ex girlfriends, of keeping relationships with them, of leading them on, and of pretending to "not want to hurt others". You're right that he's leading them on. You're right that it should make you mad. But he isn't a Nice Guy.
If you do break up with him, his relationship with his ex won't change and, instead, you will be labeled as "one of his jealous girlfriends". It's funny how he doesn't see this behavior as the problem - rather he sees his "jealous girlfriends" as the problem. They're the ones that went crazy, they're the ones that dumped him. He's trying to be the victim, to play you as a fool (and he is playing you as a fool) problem and there is nothing in your question that shows his behavior is going to change and that he acknowledges it at all.
There is no such thing as "Nice Guy Syndrome". The fact that people believe that just shows that there is a bunch of guys out there who have convince women that they don't deserve to have men in their lives who will take the risk to be with them. He lied to you. He lied by omission. She slept at his house. They never broke up - I bet the ex even labels it as "taking a break". You're dating a guy who has at least 2 girlfriends right now. If you're cool with that, forgive him. If you're not, dump his sorry worthless ass right now.
posted by Stynxno at 12:35 PM on December 2, 2008 [25 favorites]
Since then, she calls every few weeks and they go out for drinks or dinner every four to six weeks-ish. Sig Other acknowledged that she kept trying to stay living with him to continue the relationship, which he didn't want to do. So there's history of her hanging onto him.
Look, it's generous of you to take his word on this, but I don't know how much you should trust this "she's so needy" line, given the fact that for all she knew, he has been single since their breakup. Who knows what he's told her.
He went to some effort to meet up with her and keep it from you; he went to some effort to keep your existence from her. He's not just some passive "nice guy" being suckered by an aggressive ex. He's dating her. I'm sorry.
posted by desuetude at 12:41 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Look, it's generous of you to take his word on this, but I don't know how much you should trust this "she's so needy" line, given the fact that for all she knew, he has been single since their breakup. Who knows what he's told her.
He went to some effort to meet up with her and keep it from you; he went to some effort to keep your existence from her. He's not just some passive "nice guy" being suckered by an aggressive ex. He's dating her. I'm sorry.
posted by desuetude at 12:41 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Best answer: He's self absorbed and thinks of himself first under the guise of being careful of others feelings, so he can sleep ok at night. He's not a terrible person per se, but it does sound like he'll wind up hurting you again, no matter how much you love him.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:41 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:41 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh, and grrlscout is spot-on. Suggest you all meet. See what he does.
posted by desuetude at 12:43 PM on December 2, 2008
posted by desuetude at 12:43 PM on December 2, 2008
No ex-girlfriend stays overnight to sleep in the other room.
Inaccurate and unfair. I've done that and will undoubtedly do so again. But I digress.
In my experience, being lied about is at least as poisonous as being lied to.
Note that in at least one of the worlds this guy occupies, you don't exist. Do you know exactly what he intends to tell his ex about you? Are you sure you believe him?
posted by tangerine at 12:43 PM on December 2, 2008
Inaccurate and unfair. I've done that and will undoubtedly do so again. But I digress.
In my experience, being lied about is at least as poisonous as being lied to.
Note that in at least one of the worlds this guy occupies, you don't exist. Do you know exactly what he intends to tell his ex about you? Are you sure you believe him?
posted by tangerine at 12:43 PM on December 2, 2008
I'm leaning more towards this guy is ridiculously passive aggressive and doesn't like confrontation. So he's trying to micro-manage. I doubt he's cheating. I think he's just wanting to avoid this entire chat. But now that it's out there, if everything else is pretty good between you two, yeah, ask to meet old girl. Or that he move on. But I wouldn't freak and dump him for "cheating" or anything. I've kept in touch with most of my exes, just as an elementary thing, never with any malice towards new girlfriend, but not always telling new girlfriend. I wasn't sleeping with them or doing anything like that, but sometimes you stay friends with someone who was a big part of your life for several years.
posted by disillusioned at 12:44 PM on December 2, 2008
posted by disillusioned at 12:44 PM on December 2, 2008
I don't think you're insane for considering forgiving him, but it depends entirely on two things. One, how much bullshit/non-confrontational faffing you're willing/able to put up with. Two, him coming clean and being straight with you from this point onwards. smalls is right, you're not getting the benefits of Nice Guy Syndrome, and it's his fault - through lying to you - that you found out in a way that was humiliating. He has a series of choices between his ex and his new relationship, and by not being open with you about the interaction with the ex, he's repeatedly choosing against you, while you're trying to make it work and love him honestly.
There's also this:
Their last physical encounter was in February but they apparently lived together for a bit after breaking up until she found a place to live in another city.
Maybe they're the exception, but I seriously, seriously, betting-the-farm doubt February was their last physical contact if they stayed living together for months - just based on everyone I know who's been in that situation. I'm not trying to be unkind or to suggest that he's cheated on you since you've been together, just the time between the break-up and her leaving.
posted by carbide at 12:47 PM on December 2, 2008
There's also this:
Their last physical encounter was in February but they apparently lived together for a bit after breaking up until she found a place to live in another city.
Maybe they're the exception, but I seriously, seriously, betting-the-farm doubt February was their last physical contact if they stayed living together for months - just based on everyone I know who's been in that situation. I'm not trying to be unkind or to suggest that he's cheated on you since you've been together, just the time between the break-up and her leaving.
posted by carbide at 12:47 PM on December 2, 2008
Here's the problem: I love him.
The problem is that you're so afraid of being alone that it's made you incapable of standing up for yourself.
You love this guy? So what? People fall in love every day. I love my stereo, but if told me lies I'd throw it out the window.
Are you serious or are you trying to dish out some kind of tough love? Not all of us fall in love every day. I'm in my 40s, and I've been in love a couple of times in my life. When it has happened, it hasn't been an everyday occurrence. It has been deeply profound -- life changing.
If I found out that my wife had done something horrible to me, maybe I'd choose to leave her, and if I did so, I'd be devastated. But it wouldn't be because I'm scared of being alone. I'm not scared of being alone. I was alone for years. It's not fun, but it's not a death sentence either. I'd be devastated over the end of that specific relationship.
Of course there are people who stay in bad relationships out of fear of loneliness rather than out of love. But you don't know this is true in the OP's case.
Of course love doesn't mean one should necessarily stay in a bad relationship.
It MAY mean that there MIGHT be some benefit from staying in it for a while and seeing if it's possible to make things work. Looked at from a purely practical perspective, surely that's true. Let's say I love the work that I'm doing but I hate the way my boss treats me. Does it make sense to say "Screw this job! I quit"? Maybe. But it might also make sense to say, "Since I love the work, let's see if it's possible to work things out with the boss. Because if I can do that, I'll be doing a job I like for someone I get along with."
posted by grumblebee at 12:56 PM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
The problem is that you're so afraid of being alone that it's made you incapable of standing up for yourself.
You love this guy? So what? People fall in love every day. I love my stereo, but if told me lies I'd throw it out the window.
Are you serious or are you trying to dish out some kind of tough love? Not all of us fall in love every day. I'm in my 40s, and I've been in love a couple of times in my life. When it has happened, it hasn't been an everyday occurrence. It has been deeply profound -- life changing.
If I found out that my wife had done something horrible to me, maybe I'd choose to leave her, and if I did so, I'd be devastated. But it wouldn't be because I'm scared of being alone. I'm not scared of being alone. I was alone for years. It's not fun, but it's not a death sentence either. I'd be devastated over the end of that specific relationship.
Of course there are people who stay in bad relationships out of fear of loneliness rather than out of love. But you don't know this is true in the OP's case.
Of course love doesn't mean one should necessarily stay in a bad relationship.
It MAY mean that there MIGHT be some benefit from staying in it for a while and seeing if it's possible to make things work. Looked at from a purely practical perspective, surely that's true. Let's say I love the work that I'm doing but I hate the way my boss treats me. Does it make sense to say "Screw this job! I quit"? Maybe. But it might also make sense to say, "Since I love the work, let's see if it's possible to work things out with the boss. Because if I can do that, I'll be doing a job I like for someone I get along with."
posted by grumblebee at 12:56 PM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
I also vote for the sit-down meeting between the three of you. If it is innocent, he should have no problem whatsoever doing so.
I disagree with the notion that a couple months isn't long enough to get over a relationship. That was all the break I needed between my most serious relationship at that point (over 2 years) and my next relationship (my wife... we've been together 10 years and counting).
Regardless, keeping your relationship from the ex is indeed a major warning sign.
posted by YFiB at 1:20 PM on December 2, 2008
I disagree with the notion that a couple months isn't long enough to get over a relationship. That was all the break I needed between my most serious relationship at that point (over 2 years) and my next relationship (my wife... we've been together 10 years and counting).
Regardless, keeping your relationship from the ex is indeed a major warning sign.
posted by YFiB at 1:20 PM on December 2, 2008
He didn't tell you about her. He didn't tell her about you. Maybe this is a result of his being a "nice guy," but his being a "nice guy" is causing him to behave in a way that most people would characterize as being an "asshole." I think you have to assume that his so-called nice-guy tendencies will very likely result in his being an asshole repeatedly in the future, and then think about how much of that you want to live with. Coming from the perspective of a married person, I would advise you to keep a particularly keen eye out for an inability to stand up to his family members where you are concerned.
posted by HotToddy at 1:23 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by HotToddy at 1:23 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Best answer: He's going out of his way to be nice to someone whose very existence should no longer matter to him. It's been nearly a year and he can't brush her off. He's a weakling and/or a cheating douchebag. You know what this means for you?
He might be already tired of his relationship with you but he's too big of a pussy to cut you loose and move on. I've known a whole lot of "nice guys" like that.
As far as being in love... I've been in love with people who were completely wrong for me before too. Love isn't the most intelligent thing around. Don't beat yourself up over falling in love with a wuss.
Btw... you know all this. You're asking anonymous strangers on the internet to help shore up your sagging trust in your own relationship. My trust in my wife's actions and word is so strong that I could literally laugh off any allegation that she was anything other than perfect and perfectly devoted to me. Don't settle for less.
posted by JFitzpatrick at 1:35 PM on December 2, 2008 [3 favorites]
He might be already tired of his relationship with you but he's too big of a pussy to cut you loose and move on. I've known a whole lot of "nice guys" like that.
As far as being in love... I've been in love with people who were completely wrong for me before too. Love isn't the most intelligent thing around. Don't beat yourself up over falling in love with a wuss.
Btw... you know all this. You're asking anonymous strangers on the internet to help shore up your sagging trust in your own relationship. My trust in my wife's actions and word is so strong that I could literally laugh off any allegation that she was anything other than perfect and perfectly devoted to me. Don't settle for less.
posted by JFitzpatrick at 1:35 PM on December 2, 2008 [3 favorites]
Consider that he didn't tell you to avoid the very reaction you are demonstrating. Just a thought.
posted by trinity8-director at 11:55 AM on December 2 [+] [!]
Ridiculous on so many levels.
this reminds me of those sophomoric sitcoms where the nice-guy type gets busted and protests either: "But I can explain" or "But nothing happened," depending on which sounds stupider.
Couples talk to each other about the events of the day, where they go, who they see. That's intimacy. You needed him to tell you about her, not because she's an ex, and ex-relations are somehow special and ooh-dangerous!!! (refer to the dribble upthread), but simply because it's part of his life. If he's not telling you about his life, then he's doing nothing for you.
Woman up and get away from that twerp.
posted by JimN2TAW at 1:51 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by trinity8-director at 11:55 AM on December 2 [+] [!]
Ridiculous on so many levels.
this reminds me of those sophomoric sitcoms where the nice-guy type gets busted and protests either: "But I can explain" or "But nothing happened," depending on which sounds stupider.
Couples talk to each other about the events of the day, where they go, who they see. That's intimacy. You needed him to tell you about her, not because she's an ex, and ex-relations are somehow special and ooh-dangerous!!! (refer to the dribble upthread), but simply because it's part of his life. If he's not telling you about his life, then he's doing nothing for you.
Woman up and get away from that twerp.
posted by JimN2TAW at 1:51 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Best answer: This kinda smells fishy. He broke up with his live-in girlfriend in May but she didn't move out for a few weeks, and by July you two were boyfriend/girlfriend? So after your first few dates in June, the ones where both of you were all tentative first kisses and fluttery heart feelings and I-can't-shut-up-about-this-new-great-person feelings, he went home to his exgirlfriend, and failed to mention your existence, at all? Even once? Even as "this girl I am kinda seeing"?
The excuse of "it's easier this way" holds no water. For the past 5 months he's managed your schedule, his schedule, and exgirlfriend's schedule to coordinate meetings and avoid any time where you might be in the same place at the same time; he's managed his telephone, email, IM, etc. conversations so that you never heard his talk to or about the exgirlfriend; he's censored every workplace conversation to make sure it doesn't include your name or activities you have done together; he has avoided mentioning her to you at all; he's avoided mentioning you to her at all! Is it really easier to create and keep up all these complex rules about who knows about whom and what you can say to whom, or is it easier to be clear and upfront with everyone?
I don't know if I'd give him another chance. That last bit-- the ability to basically keep up two totally seperate and distinct love lives for 5 months without friends, family, coworkers, or the two lovers being the wiser-- seems like a pretty complex pre-planned lying skillset, not a situation you could fall into accidentally.
posted by holyrood at 2:03 PM on December 2, 2008 [3 favorites]
The excuse of "it's easier this way" holds no water. For the past 5 months he's managed your schedule, his schedule, and exgirlfriend's schedule to coordinate meetings and avoid any time where you might be in the same place at the same time; he's managed his telephone, email, IM, etc. conversations so that you never heard his talk to or about the exgirlfriend; he's censored every workplace conversation to make sure it doesn't include your name or activities you have done together; he has avoided mentioning her to you at all; he's avoided mentioning you to her at all! Is it really easier to create and keep up all these complex rules about who knows about whom and what you can say to whom, or is it easier to be clear and upfront with everyone?
I don't know if I'd give him another chance. That last bit-- the ability to basically keep up two totally seperate and distinct love lives for 5 months without friends, family, coworkers, or the two lovers being the wiser-- seems like a pretty complex pre-planned lying skillset, not a situation you could fall into accidentally.
posted by holyrood at 2:03 PM on December 2, 2008 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Holyrood: The time is that they broke up in February-ish, yet lived together until May, we began dating in early July. He and I did not know each other when they lived together.
posted by December at 2:06 PM on December 2, 2008
posted by December at 2:06 PM on December 2, 2008
The fact that the coworker referred to the other woman as his "girlfriend" really makes it sound as if the other relationship is not as innocent as you are apparently willing to believe it is. Perhaps you are right and he has just happened not to mention any of his meetings with her to you, nor anything about you to her, but it sounds to me like he may not be quite the "Nice Guy" you take him for. If you really want to stay with him, I would try to get all three of you to meet up and see if you can straighten things out.
posted by mdn at 2:19 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by mdn at 2:19 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: The coworker referred to her by her name, not as "girlfriend" fwiw. I wrote it that way to maintain some anonymity.
posted by December at 2:21 PM on December 2, 2008
posted by December at 2:21 PM on December 2, 2008
I believe that exes can remain friends, or become friends long after they break up. I have sporadic contact with a few exes (two were significant) via MySpace. My boyfriend is Facebook friends with his ex-girlfriend and still has her number. He and I are both totally ok with this arrangement.
I also believe that continued intimate contact (and spending the night, regardless of whether anything physical happened, is intimate!) is not helpful to an ex relationship. He's not being a nice guy by continuing to see her--either he's drawing out her hopes and leading her on, or he's being a jerk to you. No way he can play this off as being nice. My ex maintained "innocent" contact with his ex for a long time into our relationship. It was his way of avoiding getting too involved with me, but I didn't realize that until we broke up. He claimed it was as your guy does--that he was trying to let her down gently, he was worried about hurting her, etc. None of it was true--I found out much later that SHE broke up with HIM. When we broke up, he tried drawing it out like that too, but I refused. Too much crazy-making in that situation.
I'm not necessarily saying DTMFA. I AM saying that if it were me, with the situation I mentioned above as well as a similar one from when I was in high school, I would walk. If he is as crazy about you as you are about him, he'll try to get you back. But I wouldn't count on it.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 2:38 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
I also believe that continued intimate contact (and spending the night, regardless of whether anything physical happened, is intimate!) is not helpful to an ex relationship. He's not being a nice guy by continuing to see her--either he's drawing out her hopes and leading her on, or he's being a jerk to you. No way he can play this off as being nice. My ex maintained "innocent" contact with his ex for a long time into our relationship. It was his way of avoiding getting too involved with me, but I didn't realize that until we broke up. He claimed it was as your guy does--that he was trying to let her down gently, he was worried about hurting her, etc. None of it was true--I found out much later that SHE broke up with HIM. When we broke up, he tried drawing it out like that too, but I refused. Too much crazy-making in that situation.
I'm not necessarily saying DTMFA. I AM saying that if it were me, with the situation I mentioned above as well as a similar one from when I was in high school, I would walk. If he is as crazy about you as you are about him, he'll try to get you back. But I wouldn't count on it.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 2:38 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
I completely agree with holyrood. We all can come up with rationales for all sorts of behaviors, but at the bottom of all of this is a man who has been actively dishonest about something pretty important. Think of the conversations he was having to plan these outings with his ex; think of the conversations you must have had with him after he had seen his ex. You: "So, what did you do last night?" Him: "Uh, nothing." You're in for more of that. I try to be a pretty forgiving person, but I got badly burned when I tried to believe the best about my (now ex) boyfriend. I spent a year coming up with reasons why someone I really loved wasn't treating me well. Turns out he just wasn't treating me well.
posted by fiery.hogue at 2:39 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by fiery.hogue at 2:39 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'll never quite understand the strong DTMFA slant at askmefi. All a little dramatic for me.
There are certainly explanations for his behavior, none of which are great. At best he's naive about what reasonable people would consider inappropriate between exes while one of them is in a relationship, and at worst he is being manipulative. Still, if you love this guy, I vote for probation.
Whatever his reasons, it is now clearly out in the open that you have a problem with him having contact with her and he has said he will stop. If he is claiming that he didn't know how you felt before about it, or if he is saying that he didn't realize what he was doing is wrong - both lame excuses, but both possibly true - he has no strikes left. I'd monitor him closely with the assumption it will be a non-issue going forward. If it remains an issue, well, you have no excuses left either.
posted by littlelebowskiurbanachiever at 3:08 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
There are certainly explanations for his behavior, none of which are great. At best he's naive about what reasonable people would consider inappropriate between exes while one of them is in a relationship, and at worst he is being manipulative. Still, if you love this guy, I vote for probation.
Whatever his reasons, it is now clearly out in the open that you have a problem with him having contact with her and he has said he will stop. If he is claiming that he didn't know how you felt before about it, or if he is saying that he didn't realize what he was doing is wrong - both lame excuses, but both possibly true - he has no strikes left. I'd monitor him closely with the assumption it will be a non-issue going forward. If it remains an issue, well, you have no excuses left either.
posted by littlelebowskiurbanachiever at 3:08 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
She doesn't know about you, because that leaves his roots of escape (and regress) clear.
Give him an ultimatum. He calls her, explains that you are in his life now, and he doesn't think it would be appropriate for the two of them to stay in contact at this time, due to their previous history. With you on the other line.
If he'll do that - burn that bridge in front of you - keep him. But watch him, too - forgiving is not forgetting.
posted by IAmBroom at 3:33 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Give him an ultimatum. He calls her, explains that you are in his life now, and he doesn't think it would be appropriate for the two of them to stay in contact at this time, due to their previous history. With you on the other line.
If he'll do that - burn that bridge in front of you - keep him. But watch him, too - forgiving is not forgetting.
posted by IAmBroom at 3:33 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Best answer: This is almost exactly what my ex was telling his new girlfriend about me, after she had a similar discovery to yours. The caveat? He and I had never broken up. She finally contacted me directly whereupon we discovered the two-timing. Six months of two-timing.
Can you trust him?
Really?
posted by internet!Hannah at 3:33 PM on December 2, 2008 [3 favorites]
Can you trust him?
Really?
posted by internet!Hannah at 3:33 PM on December 2, 2008 [3 favorites]
The coworker referred to her by her name, not as "girlfriend" fwiw. I wrote it that way to maintain some anonymity.
Ok, well, you're the one in the position to really make the judgment. The coworker was under the impression when he had seen them together the previous week that they were together, but if no one in this group is particularly touchy-feely it could be easy to mix up friends and more-than-friends, and maybe it was just a random comment. Five months seems like a long time for her to have never heard of you, and for him to have never mentioned their meetings to you, but if you only see him a couple times a week or something, maybe it's not as strange as it sounds.
Again, seems off to me, but I usually talk to SO's every day, & tell them about running into the most random people, so it could be different for you. Do you trust him? It's really your call, but it's always worth giving yourself some space so you don't let inertia make the call for you.
posted by mdn at 4:47 PM on December 2, 2008
Ok, well, you're the one in the position to really make the judgment. The coworker was under the impression when he had seen them together the previous week that they were together, but if no one in this group is particularly touchy-feely it could be easy to mix up friends and more-than-friends, and maybe it was just a random comment. Five months seems like a long time for her to have never heard of you, and for him to have never mentioned their meetings to you, but if you only see him a couple times a week or something, maybe it's not as strange as it sounds.
Again, seems off to me, but I usually talk to SO's every day, & tell them about running into the most random people, so it could be different for you. Do you trust him? It's really your call, but it's always worth giving yourself some space so you don't let inertia make the call for you.
posted by mdn at 4:47 PM on December 2, 2008
I'm with desjardins and ThePinkSuperhero, personally. Dump this guy already. And if he's a stupidly "nice" (ugh that word again) guy, well...he'll figure out it's not working. Because he's not actually being so "nice."
posted by ifjuly at 4:59 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ifjuly at 4:59 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
You deserve better. Spend your love on someone else.
posted by bookshelves at 5:01 PM on December 2, 2008
posted by bookshelves at 5:01 PM on December 2, 2008
Best answer: What Styxno said, so much.
Why in the world would you want to date a guy with no backbone? I dated a guy like that, and guess what: they'll lie to cover up anything that could maaaybe make them look bad, even if nothing bad was actually going on. Yeah, they seem like a "nice guy" alright, because sometimes they genuinely want to spare someone's feelings, but it's not a healthy or viable way to live. The unnecessary lying gets old fast, and you learn that you can't ever trust them to be honest with you. The feeling shitty and the paranoia and the drama isn't worth it. How they look to other people ALWAYS comes first, and they can't EVER handle messy situations like an adult.
If he ever has a problem in your relationship, he'll be too chickenshit to say anything or resolve it. Look at how he's treating his ex: he hasn't even told her about you, he keeps meeting her all the time to make her feel better, etc. Would you honestly want to be in her position, where he treats her like a child because he doesn't think she can handle reality and he doesn't want to look like a dick? Oh wait, he's already doing that to you. Do you honestly think that's where it's going to end?
Move on, asap.
posted by Nattie at 11:51 PM on December 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Why in the world would you want to date a guy with no backbone? I dated a guy like that, and guess what: they'll lie to cover up anything that could maaaybe make them look bad, even if nothing bad was actually going on. Yeah, they seem like a "nice guy" alright, because sometimes they genuinely want to spare someone's feelings, but it's not a healthy or viable way to live. The unnecessary lying gets old fast, and you learn that you can't ever trust them to be honest with you. The feeling shitty and the paranoia and the drama isn't worth it. How they look to other people ALWAYS comes first, and they can't EVER handle messy situations like an adult.
If he ever has a problem in your relationship, he'll be too chickenshit to say anything or resolve it. Look at how he's treating his ex: he hasn't even told her about you, he keeps meeting her all the time to make her feel better, etc. Would you honestly want to be in her position, where he treats her like a child because he doesn't think she can handle reality and he doesn't want to look like a dick? Oh wait, he's already doing that to you. Do you honestly think that's where it's going to end?
Move on, asap.
posted by Nattie at 11:51 PM on December 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm very suspicious of the fact that he hasn't told his ex about you. In fact, from your story, it doesn't sound like your COWORKER knows the two of you are dating. That's very odd, considering how long you've been dating (four months?). Tell him you want to meet his ex and if he doesn't go for it, end things.
posted by timoni at 6:04 PM on December 4, 2008
posted by timoni at 6:04 PM on December 4, 2008
"I'll never quite understand the strong DTMFA slant at askmefi. All a little dramatic for me."
Because life is too short. If your relationship has deteriorated to the point that you are asking not only other people, but complete strangers on the internet, for advice... it's time to cut it loose. With 6 billion damn people on the planet it shouldn't be too hard to find a replacement.
posted by JFitzpatrick at 7:44 PM on December 10, 2008
Because life is too short. If your relationship has deteriorated to the point that you are asking not only other people, but complete strangers on the internet, for advice... it's time to cut it loose. With 6 billion damn people on the planet it shouldn't be too hard to find a replacement.
posted by JFitzpatrick at 7:44 PM on December 10, 2008
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