I want to come out as hetero at my gay workplace.
June 13, 2007 8:09 PM Subscribe
It is a good thing where I work that I identify as gay. Very good. Recently however, I have fallen (madly) for a hetero... This would be somewhat of an issue of at my gay workplace and I'd like some good ole MeFi advice (MI)
For the past few years I've identified as gay. I work in an environment where that's not only accepted, it's actually a really, really good thing to be gay. I even (horror. shock. bad idea(!)) dated someone at work and everyone knew. Not a big deal. My bosses were all gay, and yes, it was a good gay old time.
Before working there, I dated members of the opposite gender (a long time ago), but since working at this company, it's been all homo....
Fast forward three years. I was transferred to a new office, where my new boss is gay and REALLY REALLY likes the gays. He's old school, like the kind where it was a big deal to come out and be gay when he was growing up in Hickville, Middle of Nowhere, so he takes the gays somewhat under his wing. I grew up in Large Urban Metro Center, and am young, and therefore have had no difficulties with this whatsoever.
I work with under 10 people. Everyone knows everyones business and we're together much more than a typical work place. We travel together. We eat together. We work weird, long hours.
Then. I meet a hetero. We fall for each other. Bad.
I am comfortable with my sexuality and the fact that I may not be categorizable. That is totally fine. I don't care about societal norms. I like the term queer. I like this hetero a lot. I am totally and completely fine with the psychological aspect of dating someone who may not have fit what I was previously into. That is not the issue.
But... I am so worried about telling my coworkers, or having them find out....I feel like this will not go over well at work, particularly since I recently transferred to this new location where Gay Boss loves that I'm gay. This is going to be an issue eventually, and I don't think this hetero is going to go away.
Any advice would be much appreciated...
For the past few years I've identified as gay. I work in an environment where that's not only accepted, it's actually a really, really good thing to be gay. I even (horror. shock. bad idea(!)) dated someone at work and everyone knew. Not a big deal. My bosses were all gay, and yes, it was a good gay old time.
Before working there, I dated members of the opposite gender (a long time ago), but since working at this company, it's been all homo....
Fast forward three years. I was transferred to a new office, where my new boss is gay and REALLY REALLY likes the gays. He's old school, like the kind where it was a big deal to come out and be gay when he was growing up in Hickville, Middle of Nowhere, so he takes the gays somewhat under his wing. I grew up in Large Urban Metro Center, and am young, and therefore have had no difficulties with this whatsoever.
I work with under 10 people. Everyone knows everyones business and we're together much more than a typical work place. We travel together. We eat together. We work weird, long hours.
Then. I meet a hetero. We fall for each other. Bad.
I am comfortable with my sexuality and the fact that I may not be categorizable. That is totally fine. I don't care about societal norms. I like the term queer. I like this hetero a lot. I am totally and completely fine with the psychological aspect of dating someone who may not have fit what I was previously into. That is not the issue.
But... I am so worried about telling my coworkers, or having them find out....I feel like this will not go over well at work, particularly since I recently transferred to this new location where Gay Boss loves that I'm gay. This is going to be an issue eventually, and I don't think this hetero is going to go away.
Any advice would be much appreciated...
it is totally inappropriate for sexuality to have such a role in the workplace, whatever that sexuality is
relationships should be private and not open fodder in the workplace
it's wonderful that you can be gay, and not feel any kind of flack, but that's where it should begin and end.
if the relationship works for you and the other person then go for it, but it seems so weird that it would be an issue because it is hetero...is your workplace anti hetero? it was OK for gays but not heteros? it all just gets so complicated...
how about not dating people in the workplace?
but since you already are, then just keep it to yourself and tell others to myob if they ask...
posted by Salvatorparadise at 8:28 PM on June 13, 2007 [3 favorites]
relationships should be private and not open fodder in the workplace
it's wonderful that you can be gay, and not feel any kind of flack, but that's where it should begin and end.
if the relationship works for you and the other person then go for it, but it seems so weird that it would be an issue because it is hetero...is your workplace anti hetero? it was OK for gays but not heteros? it all just gets so complicated...
how about not dating people in the workplace?
but since you already are, then just keep it to yourself and tell others to myob if they ask...
posted by Salvatorparadise at 8:28 PM on June 13, 2007 [3 favorites]
Krautland, I don't this is about anonymous' rights or sense of entitlement, or whether co-workers should be hypocrites, but about how they are in fact likely to react and how to cope with that. Salvatorparadise, I read the post quickly, but I didn't see any indication that the hetero date is a co-worker.
This is feeble, admittedly, but why don't you discuss neutrally someone who has strayed from the gayway (a "gaytor"), and see how the boss or others react? (Anne Heche and her travails come to mind, but not the best model, perhaps.) It could be that they like your gayness as an indication that you are open-minded and tolerant, or understand in some deep way, more than what your current sex life is.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 8:45 PM on June 13, 2007
This is feeble, admittedly, but why don't you discuss neutrally someone who has strayed from the gayway (a "gaytor"), and see how the boss or others react? (Anne Heche and her travails come to mind, but not the best model, perhaps.) It could be that they like your gayness as an indication that you are open-minded and tolerant, or understand in some deep way, more than what your current sex life is.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 8:45 PM on June 13, 2007
you pride yourself on working in a tolerant and fair work enviroment and so do your coworkers. why would you think they would treat you in a way they themselves would find (and probably have experienced as) intolerable?
Even though many gay people have faced intolerance, it does not make them immune from being intolerant as well. Take, as one small example, the term "LUG" - "Lesbian Until Graduation". As wikipedia points out, "Some women in lesbian communities use this term to disparage bisexual women." Developing a close-knit community of like-minded folks is one way that people defend themselves from intolerance, as is attacking people who are not members of that group. In some circles, being bi isn't gay enough to get you into the cool kids club. I'm NOT saying that all gay people think or act this way, not by any stretch, but anonymous certainly has a cultural precedent for worrying about his/her coworkers' reactions.
Anonymous, I would imagine that your workplace has a strong nondiscrimination clause related to sexual preferences somewhere in its official paperwork. I'm no lawyer, but I think that legally you've got a lot of ground to stand on if your employer starts treating you differently if you come out in reverse.
Still, I imagine that your concern is more about how the revelation might affect your relationships with your coworkers, because it sounds like they're close enough that you might even call them friends. In that case, standard friend advice applies: if they don't like you for who you truly are, then they're not worth your time.
posted by vytae at 9:00 PM on June 13, 2007
Even though many gay people have faced intolerance, it does not make them immune from being intolerant as well. Take, as one small example, the term "LUG" - "Lesbian Until Graduation". As wikipedia points out, "Some women in lesbian communities use this term to disparage bisexual women." Developing a close-knit community of like-minded folks is one way that people defend themselves from intolerance, as is attacking people who are not members of that group. In some circles, being bi isn't gay enough to get you into the cool kids club. I'm NOT saying that all gay people think or act this way, not by any stretch, but anonymous certainly has a cultural precedent for worrying about his/her coworkers' reactions.
Anonymous, I would imagine that your workplace has a strong nondiscrimination clause related to sexual preferences somewhere in its official paperwork. I'm no lawyer, but I think that legally you've got a lot of ground to stand on if your employer starts treating you differently if you come out in reverse.
Still, I imagine that your concern is more about how the revelation might affect your relationships with your coworkers, because it sounds like they're close enough that you might even call them friends. In that case, standard friend advice applies: if they don't like you for who you truly are, then they're not worth your time.
posted by vytae at 9:00 PM on June 13, 2007
Find your closest gay friend and explain it to him or her. See how they react. If that's ok, test it out with someone you trust at work.
You can always quit the fucking job.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:02 PM on June 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
You can always quit the fucking job.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:02 PM on June 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
Discriminating against you for your sexual orientation is wrong, period. I get that you fear your boss and co-workers may view this as a betrayal of yours and their homosexuality but, bottom line is, if you lose your job over this or find yourself in a hostile workplace because of whom you sleep with, that's discriminatory.
You should be valued by your boss for the work you do, not for whether or not you carry the banner for all people similarly sexually oriented. Any good boss should operate from this premise, and all else should be secondary. You don't have to advertise whom you're sleeping with to anybody. It's work and clear boundaries need to be set. I'd focus more on establishing the seriousness of this relationship outside of work before worrying what your co-workers think of your choice to date someone of the opposite sex. If the relationship becomes serious enough that you want to bring your new love around, I would sit down with your boss in a social setting and tell him, as a friend, that you have, much to your surprise, fallen in love with a hetero and you value your boss and your relationship with him enough to fear that he'll lose respect for you because of your choice. If he's worth all this worrying you're putting yourself through, he will understand and treat you with kindness and respect. If he does not, quit.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 9:12 PM on June 13, 2007
You should be valued by your boss for the work you do, not for whether or not you carry the banner for all people similarly sexually oriented. Any good boss should operate from this premise, and all else should be secondary. You don't have to advertise whom you're sleeping with to anybody. It's work and clear boundaries need to be set. I'd focus more on establishing the seriousness of this relationship outside of work before worrying what your co-workers think of your choice to date someone of the opposite sex. If the relationship becomes serious enough that you want to bring your new love around, I would sit down with your boss in a social setting and tell him, as a friend, that you have, much to your surprise, fallen in love with a hetero and you value your boss and your relationship with him enough to fear that he'll lose respect for you because of your choice. If he's worth all this worrying you're putting yourself through, he will understand and treat you with kindness and respect. If he does not, quit.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 9:12 PM on June 13, 2007
Replace all the gay/homo stuff in your question with straight/hetero/"traditional", then replace all the hetero references with "another man" or something like that. Then, in response, you'd have dozens of people on here telling you to call a lawyer and sue these people right away.
It's not OK for your boss to turn on you for who you date. Who you date shouldn't determine who you are, and it's unfortunate that so many people, even today, think otherwise. Hopefully, your boss feels that way too.
While he may not "take you under his wing" as much, hopefully he'll get that what you're doing might be a pretty hard thing to do also and continue to act like he always has. If not, then he's as bad as the people he grew up around.
posted by SuperNova at 9:15 PM on June 13, 2007
It's not OK for your boss to turn on you for who you date. Who you date shouldn't determine who you are, and it's unfortunate that so many people, even today, think otherwise. Hopefully, your boss feels that way too.
While he may not "take you under his wing" as much, hopefully he'll get that what you're doing might be a pretty hard thing to do also and continue to act like he always has. If not, then he's as bad as the people he grew up around.
posted by SuperNova at 9:15 PM on June 13, 2007
Even with the amount of work it takes to come out of the closet, to deal with family, friends, and coworkers, homosexuality does not equal enlightened behavior. I've seen some astonishingly nasty, petty behavior from crowds you would think would be the last people to judge you on your orientation or experiences. "Gaytor" indeed. "Ugh, he just got divorced. I won't go near anyone who's been with a woman in the last two years, takes that long to get the stink off!" That scene in Chasing Amy, when she is rebuked by all of her gay friends for dating a man is not far off the mark.
I'd say just not mention it, and, when they figure it out, sheepishly "admit" you've been seeing a MOTOS. Blush on command, if you can pull it off. You might try a variation of the "Well, it'd been a while and we just hit it off ..." Then trail off slightly, pause, and say, "We find love in the least expected places. I hope this won't affect how you think of me." After that, they'd have to be a complete heel to treat you badly. It's cheap and manipulative, but then, so is most of human behavior.
posted by adipocere at 9:20 PM on June 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'd say just not mention it, and, when they figure it out, sheepishly "admit" you've been seeing a MOTOS. Blush on command, if you can pull it off. You might try a variation of the "Well, it'd been a while and we just hit it off ..." Then trail off slightly, pause, and say, "We find love in the least expected places. I hope this won't affect how you think of me." After that, they'd have to be a complete heel to treat you badly. It's cheap and manipulative, but then, so is most of human behavior.
posted by adipocere at 9:20 PM on June 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
sorry, thought you said coworker
well, then, if it's not, it's definitely no one's business
your workplace sounds oppressive to me
i am hetero and if i worked in a place where "it was VERY good to be hetero" and it was so "good" that if i was to meet and really like and then date someone in a gay relationship - and this caused me some concern about how they'd react at work, i'd feel very upset...
even if i never had any relationships or anything, i'd still feel weird about working somewhere where sexuality was such a big deal
i just need to go in and do my work and go home
posted by Salvatorparadise at 9:23 PM on June 13, 2007
well, then, if it's not, it's definitely no one's business
your workplace sounds oppressive to me
i am hetero and if i worked in a place where "it was VERY good to be hetero" and it was so "good" that if i was to meet and really like and then date someone in a gay relationship - and this caused me some concern about how they'd react at work, i'd feel very upset...
even if i never had any relationships or anything, i'd still feel weird about working somewhere where sexuality was such a big deal
i just need to go in and do my work and go home
posted by Salvatorparadise at 9:23 PM on June 13, 2007
Be careful. I've had friendships end when it was found out that I was a fencewalker. Hets and Homos alike. I know not the only one.
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 9:36 PM on June 13, 2007
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 9:36 PM on June 13, 2007
I applaud those who insist that it's not anyone else's business -- I agree. But it would be foolish to depend on that norm being shared or functioning adequately to protect your interests. It's only slightly less foolish to depend on the right to sue if you're discriminated against on the basis of your orientation. It seems to me that the first order of business is to estimate/gather intelligence on how much backlash you are likely to encounter. Then, if you continue to believe there's a risk, figure out how to sustain the relationship -- and, just maybe, let it run its course -- without unnecessary risking alienating your co-workers.
Only if a crisis develops, and you find yourself suffering materially, should you sue their pants . . . back on. The availability of legal recourse is a blunt instrument, not one well suited to restoring a workplace to its ex ante or proper functioning, and costly and difficult to use for achieving justice after the fact. Try to avoid unnecessarily standing on your rights, without compromising yourself unduly, and maybe give your peers a chance to prove themselves to be good people.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 9:51 PM on June 13, 2007
Only if a crisis develops, and you find yourself suffering materially, should you sue their pants . . . back on. The availability of legal recourse is a blunt instrument, not one well suited to restoring a workplace to its ex ante or proper functioning, and costly and difficult to use for achieving justice after the fact. Try to avoid unnecessarily standing on your rights, without compromising yourself unduly, and maybe give your peers a chance to prove themselves to be good people.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 9:51 PM on June 13, 2007
It sounds like your environment is not actually very tolerant. Perhaps it is time to school them in some tolerance. Date who you like don't let the intolerant crowd get you down. Frankly, they will probably get over it quickly and if they don't it is time to move on anyway.
posted by caddis at 11:29 PM on June 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by caddis at 11:29 PM on June 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
Really it sounds like you're just being silly. I can't imagine your boss really gives a flying fuck who or what you date. He's probably more concerned that people are open and honest about their sexuality and the absolute last thing he'd do is disparage your sexual preferences. So, yes, go to your boss and tell him you're back into the pussy, that's just how things worked out, and have a good laugh. But do understand this rampant politicization of your sexuality isn't really cool or hip among adults and while you may feel it's important it's not, at all, in the slightest. Then again, if your boss is keeping tabs on your sexual life and is upset when you pinch hit for the other team then your problems are far beyond the green.
posted by nixerman at 11:38 PM on June 13, 2007
posted by nixerman at 11:38 PM on June 13, 2007
I have a different take on this. It looks to me like you, over the course of time, have ingratiated yourself with these people based on an attribute that may not be as valid as you have tried hard to present it to be. And I say "tried hard" because you admitted you had an involvement with a gay coworker and that you probably accrued work-related benefits for having done so. You've allowed if not invited these people to violate your boundaries on a significant scale because it perhaps smoothed things for you, and now you basically want to say, "Pyche! Faked you out!"?
Your close-knitness notwithstanding, I don't think your co-workers have an unquestionable right to have anything at all to say about who you chose to get involved with away from the office (at least not to your face, or via a bunch of other indirect passive aggressive methods that I'm observing; IMing seems to have gotten very popular) but you have gone pretty far in allowing them to think they do. Not sure you can now expect to have your cake and eat it too, and if I didn't believe in the "live and let live" principle I could understand your co-workers feeling like they've been played and not appreciating it.
Your potential situation gives a whole new meaning to the term "hostile work environment" and I must bow in your general direction if you're able to survive it. But I just cannot fathom using and having your sexuality used in such a mercenary manner. I tried substituting races and religions for gay versus hetero and it still doesn't compute for me. Whatever. Good luck navigating through the possible storm.
posted by fuse theorem at 11:38 PM on June 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
Your close-knitness notwithstanding, I don't think your co-workers have an unquestionable right to have anything at all to say about who you chose to get involved with away from the office (at least not to your face, or via a bunch of other indirect passive aggressive methods that I'm observing; IMing seems to have gotten very popular) but you have gone pretty far in allowing them to think they do. Not sure you can now expect to have your cake and eat it too, and if I didn't believe in the "live and let live" principle I could understand your co-workers feeling like they've been played and not appreciating it.
Your potential situation gives a whole new meaning to the term "hostile work environment" and I must bow in your general direction if you're able to survive it. But I just cannot fathom using and having your sexuality used in such a mercenary manner. I tried substituting races and religions for gay versus hetero and it still doesn't compute for me. Whatever. Good luck navigating through the possible storm.
posted by fuse theorem at 11:38 PM on June 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
Yeah, give it time, and see if dropping casual Nascar references* will get you in trouble.
As an aside, it's amusing that this is an anonymous post: We're not in Dorothy anymore, Kansas.
*assuming anon is male
posted by rob511 at 11:54 PM on June 13, 2007
As an aside, it's amusing that this is an anonymous post: We're not in Dorothy anymore, Kansas.
*assuming anon is male
posted by rob511 at 11:54 PM on June 13, 2007
Wow, this situation really bring bi-phobia into focus. In the long run, I don't think there's any other way to beat __-phobia than to come out as __. In other words, regardless of the orientations involved, you're faced with the following dilemma: stay in the closet and suffer the misery of pretending to be someone you're not, or risk losing your job/prestige/security/etc for the sake of openly being yourself. Based on my own experience as a gay-then-bi man, "coming out" will ultimately get you a lot closer to happiness than staying in the closet will.
posted by treepour at 11:59 PM on June 13, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by treepour at 11:59 PM on June 13, 2007 [2 favorites]
I think you should take care of your personal life first and your job second. Career has to come second to happiness.
posted by chuckdarwin at 12:18 AM on June 14, 2007
posted by chuckdarwin at 12:18 AM on June 14, 2007
I'm with Fuse Theorem here. The problem here is not that you may be gay, bi, straight or any combination thereof: the problem is that so far you have been actively exploiting your queer status to blend in and ingratiate yourself with your bosses. I do not think you will be discriminated against for taking an interest in pussy, but if your gay workmates are particularly hardcore (which would not be surprising in the environment you describe) they may believe you have been faking your queerness all along. And, unreasonable as it may be, yes, that would be awkward.
Unfortunately, this kind of stuff is why people recommend keeping your sex and professional lives separate. In your case, whether it is due to workplace pressure or to your own actions, it probably is too late for that. Your sex life seems to be pretty much on the public domain.
So: I would go with Treepour's strategy. Just come out of the bi-closet already, not making a bigger fuss of it than you made about being gay in the first place. Something along the lines of "Why, I actually had the most wonderful shag the other day. With a woman, though. Yes, I'm still kind of coming to terms with that, but boy, it was good".
Laugh off any shocked comments. Take mental notes of any hostile reactions, just so you know who your enemies are. Volunteer information to minimize gossip. You will most likely not be discriminated against, but know your rights if you are. And, for future reference, try not to let your sexuality (gay, hetero, bi, whatever) take such significance on your work life. It is just not good policy.
posted by doctorpiorno at 12:49 AM on June 14, 2007 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, this kind of stuff is why people recommend keeping your sex and professional lives separate. In your case, whether it is due to workplace pressure or to your own actions, it probably is too late for that. Your sex life seems to be pretty much on the public domain.
So: I would go with Treepour's strategy. Just come out of the bi-closet already, not making a bigger fuss of it than you made about being gay in the first place. Something along the lines of "Why, I actually had the most wonderful shag the other day. With a woman, though. Yes, I'm still kind of coming to terms with that, but boy, it was good".
Laugh off any shocked comments. Take mental notes of any hostile reactions, just so you know who your enemies are. Volunteer information to minimize gossip. You will most likely not be discriminated against, but know your rights if you are. And, for future reference, try not to let your sexuality (gay, hetero, bi, whatever) take such significance on your work life. It is just not good policy.
posted by doctorpiorno at 12:49 AM on June 14, 2007 [1 favorite]
I agree on the work-life separation suggestion, but given the situation now, why not just come out with it, get it over with? "So the woman I just started seeing--" [notice his look of surprise] "I know! I was surprised myself!"
Great line I heard from a (definitely queer) woman dating a guy, she said she was dating "a lesbian trapped in a man's body." (He agreed he was, actually, so it really was true.) You could try a joke like that. ("My suspicion is that she's actually a gay guy trapped in a woman's body -- you should see the fabulous outfits she puts together!" or something less stereotypical than that.) You could subtly reassure him that you're not about to go off to some whitebread hetero paradise he's excluded from. ("Yeah, she & I went out to [Gay Bar] last night!") You could also acknowledge the oddness of the situation being reversed ("I've been a little scared to come out of the closet about this"), see if it reduces some of the tension there. The downside is that most of this humor sounds (is) defensive and continues the pattern of trying to fit in, rather than being like "yeah, I'm all over the map but I'm a good worker, why do you care?" which might be a better long run strategy. Just brainstorming here, good luck!
posted by salvia at 1:05 AM on June 14, 2007
Great line I heard from a (definitely queer) woman dating a guy, she said she was dating "a lesbian trapped in a man's body." (He agreed he was, actually, so it really was true.) You could try a joke like that. ("My suspicion is that she's actually a gay guy trapped in a woman's body -- you should see the fabulous outfits she puts together!" or something less stereotypical than that.) You could subtly reassure him that you're not about to go off to some whitebread hetero paradise he's excluded from. ("Yeah, she & I went out to [Gay Bar] last night!") You could also acknowledge the oddness of the situation being reversed ("I've been a little scared to come out of the closet about this"), see if it reduces some of the tension there. The downside is that most of this humor sounds (is) defensive and continues the pattern of trying to fit in, rather than being like "yeah, I'm all over the map but I'm a good worker, why do you care?" which might be a better long run strategy. Just brainstorming here, good luck!
posted by salvia at 1:05 AM on June 14, 2007
You have to watch out for old-school gay folks. They can be serious bitches about bisexuals. These kind tend to believe that 'bisexual' = confused, even crazy. Certainly disreputable. I have an ex who is this way.
Some years ago, I ran a B&B advertised to gays. We'd get calls from people who'd ask if straights were "allowed". This was in a state with anti-discrimination laws, so it tickled me to explain that it would be unlawful to ban straight people.
Regardless of what we know to be right or wrong, people do as they will. Often, it isn't considered wrong when someone from a minority discriminates against someone from a majority group. I recently read of some place (I think in Australia) where a judge ruled it was perfectly fine for a gay place to ban straight people.
All that being said, I appreciate your situation. I'm queer as any 3-dollar-bill you could care to mention, yet in the city where I live, there is a woman I find attractive! I find it slightly embarassing. I'd not act on this, it isn't that strong (and we're both married). My fascination by the fact is far more strong than the attraction itself. It's kind of amusing.
But, do understand something. Especially with the older crowd of gay folks, a supposedly gay man suddenly chasing after a woman is seen as self-destructive. We've seen it happen, we've seen people get terribly unhappy. It can bring far more drama than most healthy people want to be around.
Times have changed, but old lessons learned aren't set aside all that easily. "Should" has very little to do with this sort of situation. They should be okay with it, in this day and age. But understand the opposite view, and that many an older gay man would fear for your mental health, in such a situation.
posted by Goofyy at 1:05 AM on June 14, 2007
Some years ago, I ran a B&B advertised to gays. We'd get calls from people who'd ask if straights were "allowed". This was in a state with anti-discrimination laws, so it tickled me to explain that it would be unlawful to ban straight people.
Regardless of what we know to be right or wrong, people do as they will. Often, it isn't considered wrong when someone from a minority discriminates against someone from a majority group. I recently read of some place (I think in Australia) where a judge ruled it was perfectly fine for a gay place to ban straight people.
All that being said, I appreciate your situation. I'm queer as any 3-dollar-bill you could care to mention, yet in the city where I live, there is a woman I find attractive! I find it slightly embarassing. I'd not act on this, it isn't that strong (and we're both married). My fascination by the fact is far more strong than the attraction itself. It's kind of amusing.
But, do understand something. Especially with the older crowd of gay folks, a supposedly gay man suddenly chasing after a woman is seen as self-destructive. We've seen it happen, we've seen people get terribly unhappy. It can bring far more drama than most healthy people want to be around.
Times have changed, but old lessons learned aren't set aside all that easily. "Should" has very little to do with this sort of situation. They should be okay with it, in this day and age. But understand the opposite view, and that many an older gay man would fear for your mental health, in such a situation.
posted by Goofyy at 1:05 AM on June 14, 2007
I identified as queer for a long time, and worked for a gay youth group in a big city where people were understanding and supportive. However, when I started hetero-dating, I came to identify my sexual orientation as mostly straight. I told some of my friends there, and boy was I surprised at their reaction. I was told by an older mentor that I shouldn't work at that group because I didn't identify as gay (and she basically stopped talking to me). I was trying to stop one of my friends who had gotten into a fight and they said some bitter things about straight people right to my face.
However, as Popeye would say, "I yam what I yam", so this didn't dissuade me from doing what I was doing. I did get some flack for it, but nothing I couldn't handle. You might get the same. Most importantly, follow your heart and perhaps invest in some thick skin.
posted by nursegracer at 3:41 AM on June 14, 2007
However, as Popeye would say, "I yam what I yam", so this didn't dissuade me from doing what I was doing. I did get some flack for it, but nothing I couldn't handle. You might get the same. Most importantly, follow your heart and perhaps invest in some thick skin.
posted by nursegracer at 3:41 AM on June 14, 2007
It sounds like you'd better be careful, but you might 'come out' as straight by touting the benefits of diversity in the workplace to them. Sounds like they're heading for a lawsuit.
posted by mattholomew at 4:32 AM on June 14, 2007
posted by mattholomew at 4:32 AM on June 14, 2007
good lord, chill out. you aren't obliged to discuss your private life with your coworkers.
if you decide to talk about it, though, and if anyone gives you static about it, just shrug and say, "yeah, i know. i never thought i would date another X after i came out. guess life is full of surprises. now, about that TPS report..."
and change the subject. believe me, the more freaked out you are, the more ammunition you will give anyone inclined to bother you about it. you have to be cool, not talk too much about it, answer questions genially, and refuse to be flustered.
posted by thinkingwoman at 5:32 AM on June 14, 2007 [1 favorite]
if you decide to talk about it, though, and if anyone gives you static about it, just shrug and say, "yeah, i know. i never thought i would date another X after i came out. guess life is full of surprises. now, about that TPS report..."
and change the subject. believe me, the more freaked out you are, the more ammunition you will give anyone inclined to bother you about it. you have to be cool, not talk too much about it, answer questions genially, and refuse to be flustered.
posted by thinkingwoman at 5:32 AM on June 14, 2007 [1 favorite]
I hate workplaces where it matters if you're gay or straight or somewhere in between. Unfortunately, it's a reality that it DOES matter. Seems you've lucked out and been in workplaces where it was okay and good to be gay, as opposed to the other way around. I'm jealous.
But now you're on the other side of the coin, and that's a really interesting position to be in. I'm going to assume that you're male and the other person you've met is a female.
Did you bring your boyfriends to the office or to work events? Did you have pictures of him/them in your cube? Did you talk about him a lot to coworkers? If so, then you probably have an uncomfortable situation ahead of you. If not, there's no reason to start doing all of the above just because you're now dating a girl. No one will be the wiser.
The truth is bisexuality, especially for men, is seen as the oddest and 'worst' of the 'three' sexualities. If all your coworkers do know you're gay and expect you to be dating guys, and then you mention Sally, they're going to be taken aback. The tactful ones one say anything, but they'll probably gossip amongst themselves. The untactful ones will say things like, "but I thought you were gay?!". And you need to figure out how to address that.
I think the best way, and the most appropriate way for the workplace, is "I don't feel my sexual preferences/dating habits are appropriate work conversation." I know that's not always the easiest thing to say, but it's the best thing to say. Because it really is irrelevant.
Good luck.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 6:06 AM on June 14, 2007
But now you're on the other side of the coin, and that's a really interesting position to be in. I'm going to assume that you're male and the other person you've met is a female.
Did you bring your boyfriends to the office or to work events? Did you have pictures of him/them in your cube? Did you talk about him a lot to coworkers? If so, then you probably have an uncomfortable situation ahead of you. If not, there's no reason to start doing all of the above just because you're now dating a girl. No one will be the wiser.
The truth is bisexuality, especially for men, is seen as the oddest and 'worst' of the 'three' sexualities. If all your coworkers do know you're gay and expect you to be dating guys, and then you mention Sally, they're going to be taken aback. The tactful ones one say anything, but they'll probably gossip amongst themselves. The untactful ones will say things like, "but I thought you were gay?!". And you need to figure out how to address that.
I think the best way, and the most appropriate way for the workplace, is "I don't feel my sexual preferences/dating habits are appropriate work conversation." I know that's not always the easiest thing to say, but it's the best thing to say. Because it really is irrelevant.
Good luck.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 6:06 AM on June 14, 2007
I'm still trying to figure out what sort of uber-gay business has offices with multiple locations. All I can think is that you might work for someone like this or this. I can't imagine that progressive organizations like these would -- officially -- have any sort of problems with employing a heterosexual or bisexual person.
As for your bosses and co-workers, well, it was probably not a great idea to mix your personal life and business life that much. I always say, "Don't shit where you eat." Relationships can be messy and confusing, as you're finding out. They're complicated enough without adding those complications into your career.
But, you've already done that, so you pretty have to to come out, come clean, take the heat, etc. Your bosses and co-workers will probably give you some good-natured ribbing (if not some behind-the-back snarkiness). But if they're mature and professional (are they?) this shouldn't be a problem. So come out, already, and go back to work.
posted by Robert Angelo at 6:33 AM on June 14, 2007
As for your bosses and co-workers, well, it was probably not a great idea to mix your personal life and business life that much. I always say, "Don't shit where you eat." Relationships can be messy and confusing, as you're finding out. They're complicated enough without adding those complications into your career.
But, you've already done that, so you pretty have to to come out, come clean, take the heat, etc. Your bosses and co-workers will probably give you some good-natured ribbing (if not some behind-the-back snarkiness). But if they're mature and professional (are they?) this shouldn't be a problem. So come out, already, and go back to work.
posted by Robert Angelo at 6:33 AM on June 14, 2007
Before everyone gets excited about legal options, note that there are no federal anti-discrimination workplace laws relating to sexual orientation. Anon's legal options depend on the state in which he/she works, and AFIK, most states do NOT have such laws. IANAL.
As for the real situation, one strategy is to shame them into accepting you for the reasons krautland offered - that they have experienced intolerance and won't want to see themselves as intolerant. Maybe mention it if you have to, then throw in something like: "I was a little worried about talking about it with you guys, but I knew after everything people here have been through, you'd understand."
posted by walla at 6:37 AM on June 14, 2007
As for the real situation, one strategy is to shame them into accepting you for the reasons krautland offered - that they have experienced intolerance and won't want to see themselves as intolerant. Maybe mention it if you have to, then throw in something like: "I was a little worried about talking about it with you guys, but I knew after everything people here have been through, you'd understand."
posted by walla at 6:37 AM on June 14, 2007
Some strange responses here. It's pretty common to know some basic personal details about your co-workers. I have over a hundred co-workers and I know the marital status of most of them.
Anyway, yes, you will get some guff for switching teams. Cat Pie Hurts is right. (And no, not the only one. Fencewalkers represent!)
Just work your new SO into conversation and be ready to diffuse the "what?!" with your own "I know, weird, right?! Happy weird, though."
Also be ready for your coworkers to ask if she knows you're gay and to predict dire breakup scenarios once she "really" understands that you're gay. Or for your coworkers to ask if you're still gay. And for them to have the sort of questions that sound just like the flip side of straight folks making their very first acquaintance with a real live queer.
Get it over with. Your coworkers will mostly get used to it.
posted by desuetude at 6:57 AM on June 14, 2007
Anyway, yes, you will get some guff for switching teams. Cat Pie Hurts is right. (And no, not the only one. Fencewalkers represent!)
Just work your new SO into conversation and be ready to diffuse the "what?!" with your own "I know, weird, right?! Happy weird, though."
Also be ready for your coworkers to ask if she knows you're gay and to predict dire breakup scenarios once she "really" understands that you're gay. Or for your coworkers to ask if you're still gay. And for them to have the sort of questions that sound just like the flip side of straight folks making their very first acquaintance with a real live queer.
Get it over with. Your coworkers will mostly get used to it.
posted by desuetude at 6:57 AM on June 14, 2007
It's pretty common to know some basic personal details about your co-workers. I have over a hundred co-workers and I know the marital status of most of them.
When I worked in an office, everybody knew I was gay, and they knew when I was single or when I had a partner (his photo was on my desk). But when I was single and dating, I didn't keep them apprised of who I was dating or what bars, clubs, baths, whatever I went to each weekend. :-)
In this case, "anon" has "fallen hard." I'd advised him/her to come out. In my own case, when I reached the point of spending every free moment with ex-partner, and it had gotten serious, yeah, I dropped those beads, honey, and everybody knew.
posted by Robert Angelo at 7:31 AM on June 14, 2007
When I worked in an office, everybody knew I was gay, and they knew when I was single or when I had a partner (his photo was on my desk). But when I was single and dating, I didn't keep them apprised of who I was dating or what bars, clubs, baths, whatever I went to each weekend. :-)
In this case, "anon" has "fallen hard." I'd advised him/her to come out. In my own case, when I reached the point of spending every free moment with ex-partner, and it had gotten serious, yeah, I dropped those beads, honey, and everybody knew.
posted by Robert Angelo at 7:31 AM on June 14, 2007
As TryTheTilapia notes, "Discriminating against you for your sexual orientation is wrong, period."
...but discrimination is still wrong when it's in your favor. By being cool with the boss taking your side, you're deliberately (though perhaps inadvertently before you realized this just now) participating and engaging in blatantly illegal favoritism based on sexual preference.
posted by Quarter Pincher at 9:22 AM on June 14, 2007
...but discrimination is still wrong when it's in your favor. By being cool with the boss taking your side, you're deliberately (though perhaps inadvertently before you realized this just now) participating and engaging in blatantly illegal favoritism based on sexual preference.
posted by Quarter Pincher at 9:22 AM on June 14, 2007
Clyde Mnestra my intention was to outline how they should react and what OP should do if they didn't live up to snuff.
Even though many gay people have faced intolerance, it does not make them immune from being intolerant as well
very true. but just accepting that is wrong. should this be the reaction, OP should (one might even suggest has to) confront them head-on. it's the latent acceptance that enables people to act this way.
OP needs to be able to live his/her life any damn way he/she desires without fearing pressure/reprimands from coworkers. anything else is discrimination. as far as I am concerned, there is only one way to deal with discrimination: confront and shame the hypocrits until they learn. make 'em bleed if that's what it takes for them to wake up and smell the coffee.
posted by krautland at 11:32 AM on June 14, 2007
Even though many gay people have faced intolerance, it does not make them immune from being intolerant as well
very true. but just accepting that is wrong. should this be the reaction, OP should (one might even suggest has to) confront them head-on. it's the latent acceptance that enables people to act this way.
OP needs to be able to live his/her life any damn way he/she desires without fearing pressure/reprimands from coworkers. anything else is discrimination. as far as I am concerned, there is only one way to deal with discrimination: confront and shame the hypocrits until they learn. make 'em bleed if that's what it takes for them to wake up and smell the coffee.
posted by krautland at 11:32 AM on June 14, 2007
OP needs to be able to live his/her life any damn way he/she desires without fearing pressure/reprimands from coworkers. anything else is discrimination. as far as I am concerned, there is only one way to deal with discrimination: confront and shame the hypocrits until they learn. make 'em bleed if that's what it takes for them to wake up and smell the coffee.
Aw, there is a difference between "discrimination" and "having a personal opinion." Anonymous doesn't say that he fears being demoted or fired. This is a "how to get along personally with my co-workers" question, not a "my human rights are being violated" question.
posted by desuetude at 1:05 PM on June 14, 2007
Aw, there is a difference between "discrimination" and "having a personal opinion." Anonymous doesn't say that he fears being demoted or fired. This is a "how to get along personally with my co-workers" question, not a "my human rights are being violated" question.
posted by desuetude at 1:05 PM on June 14, 2007
anon didn't say anywhere if he or she was male or female.
This is not that uncommon among women (there's a reference to to the dismissive term LUG above; I've also heard "hasbian") - young people who experiment when they're young but when it's time to get serious somehow end up in more traditional roles. It kind of fits with the whole notion of being gay as an "alternative lifestyle", and the general tendency of young people to think they want to live more radical/alternative lives (whether it's moving to the city, or onto a commune, or whatever) but to usually move to the suburbs /sell out / etc just like everyone else at a certain point.
Especially in an industry or field where there is a heavy gay population, I think fuse theorem could be right that the poster may have sort of taken advantage of his or her potential bisexuality and leaned toward the end of the kinsey scale more beneficial career-wise, without being fully honest about all possibilities. This might make some of your coworkers feel you've lied to them, not because you've outright misled them, but because they thought they were sharing a personal and intense feeling of difference with you, and it turns out maybe you never really went through that. Maybe if you'd never met other gay people, it wouldn't have occurred to you to try out being gay, and you'd never have felt confused and perverted because you'd have felt fine with het love. But for some of them, het love never worked and meeting other gay people was a big revelation that allowed them to feel normal.
The real difference here, I think, is that being gay is much less seen as an "alternative lifestyle" nowadays. It's much more normal, and there are many more ways of being gay than there are similarities within the "gay experience" now that being gay has so much mainstream attention... Plenty of younger gay people don't need to find other people to validate their feelings, or make a big to-do about coming out; it can be far less dramatic and complicated, and hence, there's a lot less need for cliques and shared experience. I would think in the current climate your being bisexual or even just someone who tried out being gay and decides in the end that they're straight will not be a big deal, because the "trendiness", so to speak, of being gay is on the wane. Like anything that emerges from underground to mainstream, at first it was seen as frightening or dangerous, then it was edgy or hip, but eventually it becomes more or less just another pattern of wallpaper. (I realize it may seem strange to compare a deep internal personal identity trait to something like dying your hair green, but I think the range of things which go through this journey of social acceptance is very broad...)
posted by mdn at 7:14 PM on June 14, 2007
This is not that uncommon among women (there's a reference to to the dismissive term LUG above; I've also heard "hasbian") - young people who experiment when they're young but when it's time to get serious somehow end up in more traditional roles. It kind of fits with the whole notion of being gay as an "alternative lifestyle", and the general tendency of young people to think they want to live more radical/alternative lives (whether it's moving to the city, or onto a commune, or whatever) but to usually move to the suburbs /sell out / etc just like everyone else at a certain point.
Especially in an industry or field where there is a heavy gay population, I think fuse theorem could be right that the poster may have sort of taken advantage of his or her potential bisexuality and leaned toward the end of the kinsey scale more beneficial career-wise, without being fully honest about all possibilities. This might make some of your coworkers feel you've lied to them, not because you've outright misled them, but because they thought they were sharing a personal and intense feeling of difference with you, and it turns out maybe you never really went through that. Maybe if you'd never met other gay people, it wouldn't have occurred to you to try out being gay, and you'd never have felt confused and perverted because you'd have felt fine with het love. But for some of them, het love never worked and meeting other gay people was a big revelation that allowed them to feel normal.
The real difference here, I think, is that being gay is much less seen as an "alternative lifestyle" nowadays. It's much more normal, and there are many more ways of being gay than there are similarities within the "gay experience" now that being gay has so much mainstream attention... Plenty of younger gay people don't need to find other people to validate their feelings, or make a big to-do about coming out; it can be far less dramatic and complicated, and hence, there's a lot less need for cliques and shared experience. I would think in the current climate your being bisexual or even just someone who tried out being gay and decides in the end that they're straight will not be a big deal, because the "trendiness", so to speak, of being gay is on the wane. Like anything that emerges from underground to mainstream, at first it was seen as frightening or dangerous, then it was edgy or hip, but eventually it becomes more or less just another pattern of wallpaper. (I realize it may seem strange to compare a deep internal personal identity trait to something like dying your hair green, but I think the range of things which go through this journey of social acceptance is very broad...)
posted by mdn at 7:14 PM on June 14, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
you pride yourself on working in a tolerant and fair work enviroment and so do your coworkers. why would you think they would treat you in a way they themselves would find (and probably have experienced as) intolerable?
so what you realized you are bi. or gay. or straight. who gives a rats ass. these are smart people. they know what it's like to be different. they know what it is like to discover themselves. they know what it's like to be judged. they of all people should be the last to make the same mistakes narrowminded (...insert slur here...) make all the time.
you have every right, legal and ethical, to expect nothing to change in the way they treat you. anything else would be hypocritical of them.
I'd even go a step further: you have every right to expect them to cheer you on for doing without regrets what most holds the promise of making you happy. too many people waste too much time worrying rather than doing that.
give them some credit and take to task whoever needs a little update on what's wrong and what's right, boss or not.
posted by krautland at 8:26 PM on June 13, 2007 [4 favorites]