Avoiding member of friend group
September 7, 2024 7:14 AM Subscribe
I'm uncomfortable around a guy in a relatively new group of friends, but am not sure how to minimize my discomfort AND any drama. Do I suck it up and hang out with him in the group? Tell the other friends so they understand why I duck out of meet-ups? Keep making plausible excuses whenever it turns out he's going to be in the group?
The guy (Tom, M) and I (F) joined the group around the same time, which centered around board gaming but now has expanded to additional activities, including at each other's homes. Early on I suspected that Tom had a crush on me, but he was generally oblivious to my signals of disinterest: for example, he kept messaging me questions despite my perfunctory answers, and stood very close to me when talking to me and when I stepped away to generate space, would step in closer.
I started avoiding him even at gaming activities (didn't say hi when I saw him, tried to sit far away from him). To his credit, when I was outright avoiding him, he didn't pursue more contact. However, this was awkward, so I tried just talking to Tom one-on-one over lunch, telling him that I was only interested in a platonic relationship. He seemed to take it okay, but when we walked back from lunch he repeatedly touched/rubbed my arm (at least a half-dozen times, even when I shifted my purse to that arm as a deterrent), and he enthused about what a great person I was and how if he had grown up in another country, he wouldn't have met me.
The next time we were at a gaming session, I pulled Tom aside afterward and reiterated that I wasn't interested in him, and pointed out that his touching and over-the-top compliments made it seem like he hadn't actually heard me. He said he'd been flustered by my talking so directly about his feelings for me, and he'd reverted to acting without a filter, like he would around family (??). He agreed not to join activities that I hosted, which at the time I thought was a reasonable compromise. (I didn't feel it was fair to ask him to drop out of the group when I was the only one with a problem with him.)
But I still want to avoid him entirely. My read on this guy is that he does have different standards for touch and personal space than I do and doesn't want to make me uncomfortable. However, I don't want to deal with someone I have to explicitly educate about my levels of comfort (which I don't consider unreasonable -- don't touch a woman who just said she doesn't want to date you, c'mon). When I see that he's joining the group for an activity, my stomach drops and I don't want to join. It's stressful around him because I feel like I can't be my normal friendly self toward him anymore and it takes effort to act just civil enough that the rest of the group won't catch on.
Weirdly, I do enjoy playing board games with him, probably because there are clear rules and such. But even though we've theoretically cleared the air, I don't want any social contact with him, which is hard now that the friend group is revving up and I'd really like to spend more time with the rest of them -- and they keep inviting both of us.
The guy (Tom, M) and I (F) joined the group around the same time, which centered around board gaming but now has expanded to additional activities, including at each other's homes. Early on I suspected that Tom had a crush on me, but he was generally oblivious to my signals of disinterest: for example, he kept messaging me questions despite my perfunctory answers, and stood very close to me when talking to me and when I stepped away to generate space, would step in closer.
I started avoiding him even at gaming activities (didn't say hi when I saw him, tried to sit far away from him). To his credit, when I was outright avoiding him, he didn't pursue more contact. However, this was awkward, so I tried just talking to Tom one-on-one over lunch, telling him that I was only interested in a platonic relationship. He seemed to take it okay, but when we walked back from lunch he repeatedly touched/rubbed my arm (at least a half-dozen times, even when I shifted my purse to that arm as a deterrent), and he enthused about what a great person I was and how if he had grown up in another country, he wouldn't have met me.
The next time we were at a gaming session, I pulled Tom aside afterward and reiterated that I wasn't interested in him, and pointed out that his touching and over-the-top compliments made it seem like he hadn't actually heard me. He said he'd been flustered by my talking so directly about his feelings for me, and he'd reverted to acting without a filter, like he would around family (??). He agreed not to join activities that I hosted, which at the time I thought was a reasonable compromise. (I didn't feel it was fair to ask him to drop out of the group when I was the only one with a problem with him.)
But I still want to avoid him entirely. My read on this guy is that he does have different standards for touch and personal space than I do and doesn't want to make me uncomfortable. However, I don't want to deal with someone I have to explicitly educate about my levels of comfort (which I don't consider unreasonable -- don't touch a woman who just said she doesn't want to date you, c'mon). When I see that he's joining the group for an activity, my stomach drops and I don't want to join. It's stressful around him because I feel like I can't be my normal friendly self toward him anymore and it takes effort to act just civil enough that the rest of the group won't catch on.
Weirdly, I do enjoy playing board games with him, probably because there are clear rules and such. But even though we've theoretically cleared the air, I don't want any social contact with him, which is hard now that the friend group is revving up and I'd really like to spend more time with the rest of them -- and they keep inviting both of us.
1) You can host more, and Tom has agreed not to come. You can also switch it up and pick some of your favorite folks to play games that are limited to four players or whatever to have an excuse to have Tom free gatherings more often.
2) You can be direct and consistent with Tom. Can you address his behavior in the moment, like “stop touching my arm, I don’t like it” rather than having little chats with him. The talk with him is focused attention from you. Saying “can you take a step back, I need more personal space” in front of your friends may help him get the message. This should not cause drama, you want a totally reasonable thing and I’m pretty sure he won’t argue in front of a group. If you have to do this more than once or twice, people will notice. Don’t respond to Tom’s texts, try to route any communication through a group chat instead.
3) As a woman who plays games, it would not cause drama if I compared notes with another woman one on one, like, hey, is Tom like this with you? Gaming attracts folks with poor abilities to read social cues, because the rules of games give structure that help them interact with people. I would want to know, and I would help you figure out what to do about Tom / back you up when Tom is hanging around you and standing too close, etc. / set up a “girl’s night” event or similar so you can have a Tom-free space sometimes .
posted by momus_window at 8:26 AM on September 7 [21 favorites]
2) You can be direct and consistent with Tom. Can you address his behavior in the moment, like “stop touching my arm, I don’t like it” rather than having little chats with him. The talk with him is focused attention from you. Saying “can you take a step back, I need more personal space” in front of your friends may help him get the message. This should not cause drama, you want a totally reasonable thing and I’m pretty sure he won’t argue in front of a group. If you have to do this more than once or twice, people will notice. Don’t respond to Tom’s texts, try to route any communication through a group chat instead.
3) As a woman who plays games, it would not cause drama if I compared notes with another woman one on one, like, hey, is Tom like this with you? Gaming attracts folks with poor abilities to read social cues, because the rules of games give structure that help them interact with people. I would want to know, and I would help you figure out what to do about Tom / back you up when Tom is hanging around you and standing too close, etc. / set up a “girl’s night” event or similar so you can have a Tom-free space sometimes .
posted by momus_window at 8:26 AM on September 7 [21 favorites]
You have really done a terrific job of showing him your boundaries. Now behave like a normal person with boundaries. If he trespasses, Glare at him, and if warranted, tell him Cut that out or I told you to stop this behavior, and I meant it. If there are sympathetic others, comment that Tom keeps trying to flirt with you after you gave him the clear message that you aren't interested, and it makes you uncomfortable.
Women endure this crap, and many groups don'/won't support women, but we persist.
posted by theora55 at 8:29 AM on September 7 [21 favorites]
Women endure this crap, and many groups don'/won't support women, but we persist.
posted by theora55 at 8:29 AM on September 7 [21 favorites]
Yeah I agree hard with momus_window, you need to stop responding to his texts and you also need to stop having one-on-one chats with him.
posted by MiraK at 8:30 AM on September 7 [8 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 8:30 AM on September 7 [8 favorites]
There's a weird amount of victim-blaming going on in this thread. It isn't, and shouldn't be on you to "correctly" assert your boundaries. Please talk to the (formal or informal) organizers of this group and alert them to Tom's behavior. It is their role to tell him to cut it out and leave you alone, and they may need to escalate and tell him to leave. You say that Tom joined the group around the same time as you so it's not like you're splitting up an existing friend group, but even if you were, it wouldn't matter: part of the role of organizing this stuff is sometimes having to share tough messages and make hard decisions.
posted by capricorn at 8:50 AM on September 7 [9 favorites]
posted by capricorn at 8:50 AM on September 7 [9 favorites]
Chances are, more women are/were on a receiving end of this behavior. If not, there will be. Not respecting boundaries is a strong indicator of lack of empathy which might have more dire consequences. How do the other group members respond to that?
Not wanting to raise drama is also an invented concept. If someone calls you dramatic for standing for your basic comfort, you REALLY don't need them in your life. I understand you got comfortable with the others, which is great, however if you receive no support within this group, I would consider changing the group. You deserve respect, regardless of the area of life. Are there any others in your area?
posted by Salicornia at 9:25 AM on September 7 [6 favorites]
Not wanting to raise drama is also an invented concept. If someone calls you dramatic for standing for your basic comfort, you REALLY don't need them in your life. I understand you got comfortable with the others, which is great, however if you receive no support within this group, I would consider changing the group. You deserve respect, regardless of the area of life. Are there any others in your area?
posted by Salicornia at 9:25 AM on September 7 [6 favorites]
I've completely dropped out of social circles to avoid guys like this, and have no regrets. They do not tend to get over it, in my experience, unless I'm gone.
I can't be my normal friendly self toward him anymore
Right, you cannot and should not. Bare minimum of politeness, albeit he's so hungry for crumbs that that probably won't have much effect. Guys like that ignore no's.
You, unlike me, have actually asserted yourself. He's not listening or going to listen to you. I think what this might lean towards next is (a) escalating your forcefulness in your behavior, even yelling if you have to, and/or (b) enlist someone else (preferably a guy, sigh) in backing you up. If he's going to keep escalating, it'll be harder and harder to keep it under everyone else's friend radar. And if he's doing it to you, he's probably doing it to other women too.
Captain Awkward has covered this topic before. "Did you know that this post about what to do about the creepy dude in the friend group is the most-read, most-linked, most-discussed post here, ever, even six years later?"
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:33 AM on September 7 [13 favorites]
I can't be my normal friendly self toward him anymore
Right, you cannot and should not. Bare minimum of politeness, albeit he's so hungry for crumbs that that probably won't have much effect. Guys like that ignore no's.
You, unlike me, have actually asserted yourself. He's not listening or going to listen to you. I think what this might lean towards next is (a) escalating your forcefulness in your behavior, even yelling if you have to, and/or (b) enlist someone else (preferably a guy, sigh) in backing you up. If he's going to keep escalating, it'll be harder and harder to keep it under everyone else's friend radar. And if he's doing it to you, he's probably doing it to other women too.
Captain Awkward has covered this topic before. "Did you know that this post about what to do about the creepy dude in the friend group is the most-read, most-linked, most-discussed post here, ever, even six years later?"
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:33 AM on September 7 [13 favorites]
I didn't feel it was fair to ask him to drop out of the group when I was the only one with a problem with him
You don't know that you are. In this situation I would reach out to other members of the group, especially other women. Something like sending a text to one or two others before the next event saying "Hey, can you keep an eye out for Tom and let me know if he shows up? I've told him to stop pestering me but he won't leave me alone."
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:08 AM on September 7 [5 favorites]
You don't know that you are. In this situation I would reach out to other members of the group, especially other women. Something like sending a text to one or two others before the next event saying "Hey, can you keep an eye out for Tom and let me know if he shows up? I've told him to stop pestering me but he won't leave me alone."
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:08 AM on September 7 [5 favorites]
Are you sure that there aren't people in the group who are, or who have been, encouraging him to try with you, out of a fairly common urge some people have to see single people link up?
Or that Tom hasn't recruited one or two people to push this narrative along?
posted by zadcat at 1:08 PM on September 7 [3 favorites]
Or that Tom hasn't recruited one or two people to push this narrative along?
posted by zadcat at 1:08 PM on September 7 [3 favorites]
Talk to other people about Tom.
Also read The Five Geek Social Fallacies, which is how jerks like this don’t get kicked out of groups that really should kick them out.
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:06 PM on September 7 [8 favorites]
Also read The Five Geek Social Fallacies, which is how jerks like this don’t get kicked out of groups that really should kick them out.
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:06 PM on September 7 [8 favorites]
I wouldn't do any more one-on-one talks-- you've given him the benefit of the doubt at this point. He knows that you don't want to date him. It might be awkward, but I think the best thing to do now is to be very pointed if (when?) he does something you've asked him not to do. E.g., if he comes closer than you want, put your hands up and say "Move back. You're in my personal space." If he touches you, say, "Stop touching me now. I've asked you not to do that." If he reacts poorly, or anyone else is critical, that is their problem.
Also, you say you want to avoid him entirely, and that's okay. It's hard to relax and have fun when you feel like you must be on guard, ready to police his behavior if he steps out of line. I'd suggest hosting more events, if you can, because you've already set the boundary that he won't be invited.
posted by tuesdayschild at 3:18 PM on September 7 [3 favorites]
Also, you say you want to avoid him entirely, and that's okay. It's hard to relax and have fun when you feel like you must be on guard, ready to police his behavior if he steps out of line. I'd suggest hosting more events, if you can, because you've already set the boundary that he won't be invited.
posted by tuesdayschild at 3:18 PM on September 7 [3 favorites]
Certainly 100% deny him any communication outside of the gaming table.
I doubt it will be comfortable to have him around any time in the near future. I do think you may make it easier for yourself by mentioning being uncomfortable to other women in the group and asking if he's been creeping on anyone else. It doesn't have to be a Big Deal, but having some support from others can help a lot.
This sort of thing does have the potential to blow up into big drama, but if the group is prone to big drama there's going to be some eventually anyway. Best to find out now.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:46 PM on September 7 [1 favorite]
I doubt it will be comfortable to have him around any time in the near future. I do think you may make it easier for yourself by mentioning being uncomfortable to other women in the group and asking if he's been creeping on anyone else. It doesn't have to be a Big Deal, but having some support from others can help a lot.
This sort of thing does have the potential to blow up into big drama, but if the group is prone to big drama there's going to be some eventually anyway. Best to find out now.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:46 PM on September 7 [1 favorite]
I think you would be 100% justified in privately messaging each of the other group members "Tom persisted in touching me after I told him that I was not interested, and I no longer feel comfortable attending events where he will be present."
If they decide that they'd rather have Tom around than you, then you don't want to be around those people anyway.
If they kick Tom out, he brought it on himself by repeatedly touching you after you told him you weren't interested. His excuses for doing that are total bullshit. He knew what he was doing was wrong, and he was doing it to deliberately make you uncomfortable to punish you for not reciprocating his feelings.
Please stop doubting yourself. He sounds like someone who has a long history of being creepy towards women and has learned how to carefully walk the line of plausible deniability and manipulate everyone around him into believing that he's just "socially awkward" and not a predator. But even the most "socially awkward" people know that it's inappropriate to repeatedly touch someone who just told you they're not interested. He's deliberately lying and manipulating you and the group.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:12 AM on September 8 [7 favorites]
If they decide that they'd rather have Tom around than you, then you don't want to be around those people anyway.
If they kick Tom out, he brought it on himself by repeatedly touching you after you told him you weren't interested. His excuses for doing that are total bullshit. He knew what he was doing was wrong, and he was doing it to deliberately make you uncomfortable to punish you for not reciprocating his feelings.
Please stop doubting yourself. He sounds like someone who has a long history of being creepy towards women and has learned how to carefully walk the line of plausible deniability and manipulate everyone around him into believing that he's just "socially awkward" and not a predator. But even the most "socially awkward" people know that it's inappropriate to repeatedly touch someone who just told you they're not interested. He's deliberately lying and manipulating you and the group.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:12 AM on September 8 [7 favorites]
consider the possibility that he did not and does not need “explicit education” on when not to touch you or stand too close (ever) because he knows exactly what he is doing.
you can absolutely explain to mutual friends that you don’t get along with him, without adding any details if you don’t want to. you don’t need to pretend it isn’t true and it would not even be a good idea to pretend. the truth is the most plausible of excuses.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:57 PM on September 8 [3 favorites]
you can absolutely explain to mutual friends that you don’t get along with him, without adding any details if you don’t want to. you don’t need to pretend it isn’t true and it would not even be a good idea to pretend. the truth is the most plausible of excuses.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:57 PM on September 8 [3 favorites]
The next time you see him, act as normal as possible and hopefully he now has the message - ie, give him a chance to prove how he's planning to act, before you act again.
Choose a confrontation-comfortable friend in the group to be your backup and maybe ask them to sit near you.
Also speak with a few other group members you trust and let them know this has happened.
Then if he touches you again, you say, in a calm voice "Please don't touch me Tom. The way you behave towards me makes me uncomfortable, and I've already asked you not to touch me. Please respect my personal space and do not touch me again." Have your backup friend ready to watch the proceedings but not say anything unless it escalates.
Then send a follow up email and CC the group leader.
Hi Tom,
I wanted to make a request about space and distance between us.
Since we met, you have behaved in a way that made me uncomfortable - direct messaging me with lots of questions, standing very close to me, and when I stepped away to generate space, would step in closer.
I started avoiding you, and you seemed to notice and gave me space which I appreciated.
Then I felt awkward about the avoidance, and wanted to be direct about the dynamic, so I pulled you aside on Date / Location to say I was only interested in platonic interactions. You seemed to take it okay, but when we walked back from lunch, you repeatedly touched/rubbed my arm, at least 6 times, even when I shifted my purse to that arm as a deterrent, and gave me over-the-top compliments about what a great person I was and how if you had grown up in another country, you wouldn't have met me. Your behaviour was inappropriate. It was disrespectful and frankly creepy for you to touch me so many times, and made me extremely uncomfortable again.
The next time I saw you, on Date/Location, I spoke with you afterward and pointed out that the arm-touching and over-the-top compliments made it seem like you hadn't actually heard my request for distance. You said you'd been flustered by my talking so directly about your feelings for me, and you'd reverted to acting without a filter, like you would around family. You did not apologize.
After that conversation, you behaved by ____.
Most recently, on Date/Location, you did ___ which made me feel ___.
So, I would like to re-iterate my boundaries, directly and in writing, with Name CC'd as a witness of this request.
Going forward, I would like to request that you behave in a distant way towards me, in your physical actions, eye contact, and words.
Specifically,
Do not direct-message me.
Please do not attend the nights I host.
Please don't sit at the same table as me.
Saying hi in a group setting to be courteous is fine, but please don't initiate 1-1 conversations with me.
Please don't try to make extended eye contact with me beyond a glance.
Do not touch me in any way.
When possible, let's try to stay on opposite sides of the room from each other.
I realize that putting these requests in writing feels uncomfortable. For what it's worth, I think you mean well and I don't think anything bad of you, and I don't want to embarrass you or make you uncomfortable either.
But this issue is ongoing, and you have overstepped clear boundaries several times, and at this point, you make me very uncomfortable. As a result, the uncertainty of how things will progress has been causing me discomfort when I come to events. So I wanted to be direct in telling you exactly what the boundaries are.
Thank you for understanding.
Name.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:55 PM on September 9 [1 favorite]
Choose a confrontation-comfortable friend in the group to be your backup and maybe ask them to sit near you.
Also speak with a few other group members you trust and let them know this has happened.
Then if he touches you again, you say, in a calm voice "Please don't touch me Tom. The way you behave towards me makes me uncomfortable, and I've already asked you not to touch me. Please respect my personal space and do not touch me again." Have your backup friend ready to watch the proceedings but not say anything unless it escalates.
Then send a follow up email and CC the group leader.
Hi Tom,
I wanted to make a request about space and distance between us.
Since we met, you have behaved in a way that made me uncomfortable - direct messaging me with lots of questions, standing very close to me, and when I stepped away to generate space, would step in closer.
I started avoiding you, and you seemed to notice and gave me space which I appreciated.
Then I felt awkward about the avoidance, and wanted to be direct about the dynamic, so I pulled you aside on Date / Location to say I was only interested in platonic interactions. You seemed to take it okay, but when we walked back from lunch, you repeatedly touched/rubbed my arm, at least 6 times, even when I shifted my purse to that arm as a deterrent, and gave me over-the-top compliments about what a great person I was and how if you had grown up in another country, you wouldn't have met me. Your behaviour was inappropriate. It was disrespectful and frankly creepy for you to touch me so many times, and made me extremely uncomfortable again.
The next time I saw you, on Date/Location, I spoke with you afterward and pointed out that the arm-touching and over-the-top compliments made it seem like you hadn't actually heard my request for distance. You said you'd been flustered by my talking so directly about your feelings for me, and you'd reverted to acting without a filter, like you would around family. You did not apologize.
After that conversation, you behaved by ____.
Most recently, on Date/Location, you did ___ which made me feel ___.
So, I would like to re-iterate my boundaries, directly and in writing, with Name CC'd as a witness of this request.
Going forward, I would like to request that you behave in a distant way towards me, in your physical actions, eye contact, and words.
Specifically,
Do not direct-message me.
Please do not attend the nights I host.
Please don't sit at the same table as me.
Saying hi in a group setting to be courteous is fine, but please don't initiate 1-1 conversations with me.
Please don't try to make extended eye contact with me beyond a glance.
Do not touch me in any way.
When possible, let's try to stay on opposite sides of the room from each other.
I realize that putting these requests in writing feels uncomfortable. For what it's worth, I think you mean well and I don't think anything bad of you, and I don't want to embarrass you or make you uncomfortable either.
But this issue is ongoing, and you have overstepped clear boundaries several times, and at this point, you make me very uncomfortable. As a result, the uncertainty of how things will progress has been causing me discomfort when I come to events. So I wanted to be direct in telling you exactly what the boundaries are.
Thank you for understanding.
Name.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:55 PM on September 9 [1 favorite]
(A couple of people have made mention of the idea of a group leader. The description given in the question makes it sounds like it’s a group of friends, in which case there is probably no organizational structure.)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:22 PM on September 9 [2 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:22 PM on September 9 [2 favorites]
« Older How do I work out if this is just a mid-life... | what is is that the birds and the bees like... Newer »
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
You can say any of the following in a normal tone of voice (neither angry nor apologetic, neither yelling nor whispered) every time he moves close to you or tries to touch you, and escalate by getting louder and louder if he repeatedly tries to touch:
"Please don't touch me."
"Nope, I don't want to be touched."
"No touching!"
"Step away, please!"
posted by MiraK at 8:24 AM on September 7 [18 favorites]