Arguments about communication structures and process obstructing resolut
August 10, 2024 1:28 PM Subscribe
When I disagree with my partner about something specific, usually practical, we’re inevitably unable to resolve the issue in any way.
She either refuses and says the specific situation isn’t important, we should look at the pattern, or that she doesn’t want to hear about the practical before we have addressed the communication issues and solved those.
She insists that my lack of structure and skipping steps in the process steamrolls her and forces outcome of practical decisions, including when I rush to choose something she suggested.
I end up feeling it’s impossible to ever address anything specific, practical, and that her unwillingness or inability to just have a conversation without structure means it’ll never actually happen.
Am I missing something by trying to use the issue at hand both as an example and for the purpose of getting it addressed? Are there ways of combining those? Or should I resign myself to learning communication structure and process skills with an expectation that the rest will eventually follow?
She insists that my lack of structure and skipping steps in the process steamrolls her and forces outcome of practical decisions, including when I rush to choose something she suggested.
I end up feeling it’s impossible to ever address anything specific, practical, and that her unwillingness or inability to just have a conversation without structure means it’ll never actually happen.
Am I missing something by trying to use the issue at hand both as an example and for the purpose of getting it addressed? Are there ways of combining those? Or should I resign myself to learning communication structure and process skills with an expectation that the rest will eventually follow?
Couples therapy seems like the perfect solution here, it could help both of you understand the other's perspective and come to a compromise that works for both of you. I think the communication/perspective issue would be much easier to resolve with an unbiased 3rd party.
posted by Eyelash at 1:36 PM on August 10 [11 favorites]
posted by Eyelash at 1:36 PM on August 10 [11 favorites]
The time for the longer conversation is when you're not currently in disagreement. Sounds like you're eager to resolve the issue quickly and move on, while she wants to address the way the two of you resolve disagreements in a more fundamental way. Be patient and try it her way for once. Don't interrupt, don't skip ahead. Just be an attentive partner for a while. Disagreements are made much worse when our individual communication styles clash as well.
posted by pipeski at 1:37 PM on August 10 [7 favorites]
posted by pipeski at 1:37 PM on August 10 [7 favorites]
It sounds like you're frustrated, understandably so, because you want to resolve issues quickly, focusing on one issue at hand. However, it sounds like she's equally frustrated because it feels to her you want to rush through things and not discuss larger issues.
Now in the long term you're both right: there are arguments that can be settled quickly, and arguments that take more time.
But, to be blunt, you have to learn, and try, each other's argument styles first.
posted by zompist at 1:50 PM on August 10 [4 favorites]
Now in the long term you're both right: there are arguments that can be settled quickly, and arguments that take more time.
But, to be blunt, you have to learn, and try, each other's argument styles first.
posted by zompist at 1:50 PM on August 10 [4 favorites]
In general, the best time to have the meta-discussion is when you're NOT in the middle of the thing you need to discuss, especially if you're stressed, there are personal feelings at stake, or there's a high-stakes decision involved.
But that doesn't mean you're doomed to endless process discussions! If you take the time to have separate discussions about communication style & structure etc, ideally you have to have fewer of them as time goes on, and you resolve actual disagreements more quickly and easily. That's not going to happen overnight, it's not going to be a one-and-done thing, and some things will always require more meta discussion. But in most relationships (romantic, sexual, family, professional), that meta-discussion is an important part of developing the trust and tactics that will make disagreements and conflict something you can work through and move on from. It's like maintaining a house or vehicle -- do the occasional maintenance to keep things running well, so that when something unexpected comes up, it does less damage and is easier to fix.
So try that first. If you feel like you're having useful meta-discussions and your partner continues to push back during practical disagreements, then it might be worth a discussion about whether she's using it as a deflection/avoidance tactic, and whether she needs to try something different herself. But you can't consider that until you've put in a sustained good-faith effort to have the meta-discussions.
And yes, a couple's counselor can be hugely helpful for this!
posted by rhiannonstone at 2:02 PM on August 10 [4 favorites]
But that doesn't mean you're doomed to endless process discussions! If you take the time to have separate discussions about communication style & structure etc, ideally you have to have fewer of them as time goes on, and you resolve actual disagreements more quickly and easily. That's not going to happen overnight, it's not going to be a one-and-done thing, and some things will always require more meta discussion. But in most relationships (romantic, sexual, family, professional), that meta-discussion is an important part of developing the trust and tactics that will make disagreements and conflict something you can work through and move on from. It's like maintaining a house or vehicle -- do the occasional maintenance to keep things running well, so that when something unexpected comes up, it does less damage and is easier to fix.
So try that first. If you feel like you're having useful meta-discussions and your partner continues to push back during practical disagreements, then it might be worth a discussion about whether she's using it as a deflection/avoidance tactic, and whether she needs to try something different herself. But you can't consider that until you've put in a sustained good-faith effort to have the meta-discussions.
And yes, a couple's counselor can be hugely helpful for this!
posted by rhiannonstone at 2:02 PM on August 10 [4 favorites]
Is part of the problem that when you suggest a solution, she hears it as a command? Would it help if you phrased suggestions more explicitly as a starting point "I'm not saying we should do it this way, but what do you think about this..."
All that said, it might help if you can give an example or two.
posted by coffeecat at 2:28 PM on August 10 [2 favorites]
All that said, it might help if you can give an example or two.
posted by coffeecat at 2:28 PM on August 10 [2 favorites]
Sounds like something a couples counsellor would be really helpful for - to listen to you two try to work out an issue and help you both address the ways in which your STYLE of communication is causing issues outside of the SUBSTANCE of the issues you're disagreeing on. Perfect kind of problem to recruit an outside observer.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:35 PM on August 10 [1 favorite]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:35 PM on August 10 [1 favorite]
What is the structure or process steps you mention? What would she say it is? Why do you think it is important to her?
I wonder if there is something she is trying to communicate that you are not understanding fully, or not seeming to understand. Do you feel that you have fully heard out and listened to her concerns about the "pattern"? And if so, are you taking steps to address it?
I wonder if your focus on the things you describe as specific practical matters are, whether or not intentionally, serving to shut off her attempts to communicate something she finds important to you.
Perhaps you could provide examples of practical issues that cannot be solved, and your respective perspectives on them.
posted by lookoutbelow at 2:48 PM on August 10 [2 favorites]
I wonder if there is something she is trying to communicate that you are not understanding fully, or not seeming to understand. Do you feel that you have fully heard out and listened to her concerns about the "pattern"? And if so, are you taking steps to address it?
I wonder if your focus on the things you describe as specific practical matters are, whether or not intentionally, serving to shut off her attempts to communicate something she finds important to you.
Perhaps you could provide examples of practical issues that cannot be solved, and your respective perspectives on them.
posted by lookoutbelow at 2:48 PM on August 10 [2 favorites]
This seems like the perfect situation for couples therapy, since there's nothing toxic or fundamentally broken here, just difficulties communicating with each other in a way that works for both of you.
I suggest you set up regular weekly appointments for a while, and then as incidents happen, write them down in a log and table the discussion until your next therapy session.
The therapist can use your log as a series of examples to work through how you could discuss the issues until you get the hang of it and can do it on your own.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:49 PM on August 10 [2 favorites]
I suggest you set up regular weekly appointments for a while, and then as incidents happen, write them down in a log and table the discussion until your next therapy session.
The therapist can use your log as a series of examples to work through how you could discuss the issues until you get the hang of it and can do it on your own.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:49 PM on August 10 [2 favorites]
Well I mean you don't give an example. Let's talk about how you asked the question. (kidding, kidding)
But it's not so much that there are "practical" questions and "big picture" questions is there are "urgent action needed" questions and "can take the time to analyze" questions. In your examples, is everything in a safe condition? Nobody needs medical attention, no fires need putting out, no external notifications need to be made promptly? If so, focus on those first.
Other than that, there are a number of problem solving models - gap analysis, root cause mapping, 'five whys', plenty more. What's she familiar with? I kind of agree that it's best to analyze for your 20% solution that's going to solve 80% of your problem rather than do the most-obvious, first thing you think of. And that someone trying to pressure me into making a decision NOW instead of think it through is going to make me think they're trying to pull one over on me.
But there's ALSO the concept of problem levelization. You can overdo it and paralyze yourself. "Something is spilled on the counter-top" is solved by "wipe it up and move on," no need for a deep analysis of how that could have happened. (Unless it's a frequent trend). Is that what you're really disagreeing with, that you're over-analyzing routine low-level issues? Or are these bigger things you just want to "get past" because you don't want to do the work?
posted by ctmf at 2:57 PM on August 10 [3 favorites]
But it's not so much that there are "practical" questions and "big picture" questions is there are "urgent action needed" questions and "can take the time to analyze" questions. In your examples, is everything in a safe condition? Nobody needs medical attention, no fires need putting out, no external notifications need to be made promptly? If so, focus on those first.
Other than that, there are a number of problem solving models - gap analysis, root cause mapping, 'five whys', plenty more. What's she familiar with? I kind of agree that it's best to analyze for your 20% solution that's going to solve 80% of your problem rather than do the most-obvious, first thing you think of. And that someone trying to pressure me into making a decision NOW instead of think it through is going to make me think they're trying to pull one over on me.
But there's ALSO the concept of problem levelization. You can overdo it and paralyze yourself. "Something is spilled on the counter-top" is solved by "wipe it up and move on," no need for a deep analysis of how that could have happened. (Unless it's a frequent trend). Is that what you're really disagreeing with, that you're over-analyzing routine low-level issues? Or are these bigger things you just want to "get past" because you don't want to do the work?
posted by ctmf at 2:57 PM on August 10 [3 favorites]
If you're looking for a little light reading, Secure Love and The High Conflict Couple both talk about common negative cycles and communication pitfalls. My partner and I are a classic anxious-avoidant match and these books have really helped us identify our underlying fears and concerns! We're a much better team two years in. The biggest lesson I've learned is that the goal isn't to reduce conflict, it's to fight more effectively.
The author of the first book, Julie Mennano, also runs an Instagram account with quick tips.
posted by lloquat at 3:32 PM on August 10 [3 favorites]
The author of the first book, Julie Mennano, also runs an Instagram account with quick tips.
posted by lloquat at 3:32 PM on August 10 [3 favorites]
I end up feeling it’s impossible to ever address anything specific, practical, and that her unwillingness or inability to just have a conversation without structure means it’ll never actually happen.
What happens when you try having a conversation WITH structure? It seems like you are seeing as an impossible block something that actually seems entirely possible.
posted by jacquilynne at 3:47 PM on August 10 [3 favorites]
What happens when you try having a conversation WITH structure? It seems like you are seeing as an impossible block something that actually seems entirely possible.
posted by jacquilynne at 3:47 PM on August 10 [3 favorites]
I do think couples therapy is a good idea here but in the meanwhile, why not take a break from trying to do it your way, which is just frustrating you both? Why *not* talk about the pattern and work on better communication overall? That seems well worth doing for its own sake, and also as if it’s likely to pay off in making future specific issues much easier to resolve when you can both refer back to the pattern discussion.
Coming up with some good heuristics for making decisions generally, when there is no specific fraught discussion on the table, seems like a very good idea for you two.
posted by Stacey at 4:05 PM on August 10 [3 favorites]
Coming up with some good heuristics for making decisions generally, when there is no specific fraught discussion on the table, seems like a very good idea for you two.
posted by Stacey at 4:05 PM on August 10 [3 favorites]
I suspect that you might be burying the lead here, but I'm not sure it's intentional.
What I think is probably going on is that you and your partner have disagreements about things that you both think are important, but you both have disagreements about how important they are. I find it telling that you describe your disagreements with your partner as "specific" and "practical", seemingly in contrast to your partner's disagreements with you, which you describe as "process skills". I suspect your partner might describe their disagreements as "important" and "fundamental", and your disagreements as "trivial."
So like: here's an example of what this *might* look like. I'm not saying this is you, but this is a typical way this type of thing manifests.
Let's say you want to resolve the question of, to take a random issue, how long your partner's mother can stay at your house during a visit. For you, this might be a simple, "practical" issue. You want an answer. But let's say that your partner is someone who routinely shuts down when voices get raised during conflict. They have suggested their mother stays for a week. You've started shouting about how that would drive you crazy. They now don't even care how long their mother stays; the issue for them is how you communicate and yell and make them feel unsafe. They want you to find a better way of managing your feelings and conflict in conversation so you don't make them feel unsafe. You still just want an answer about how long the mother is coming. You are frustrated by having to address the issue of your vocal intonation before getting an answer about the mom; this makes you raise your voice even louder, and makes your partner even more upset.
I think the real question to ask is: why do you feel resistant to learning communication process skills?
posted by corb at 9:06 PM on August 10 [17 favorites]
What I think is probably going on is that you and your partner have disagreements about things that you both think are important, but you both have disagreements about how important they are. I find it telling that you describe your disagreements with your partner as "specific" and "practical", seemingly in contrast to your partner's disagreements with you, which you describe as "process skills". I suspect your partner might describe their disagreements as "important" and "fundamental", and your disagreements as "trivial."
So like: here's an example of what this *might* look like. I'm not saying this is you, but this is a typical way this type of thing manifests.
Let's say you want to resolve the question of, to take a random issue, how long your partner's mother can stay at your house during a visit. For you, this might be a simple, "practical" issue. You want an answer. But let's say that your partner is someone who routinely shuts down when voices get raised during conflict. They have suggested their mother stays for a week. You've started shouting about how that would drive you crazy. They now don't even care how long their mother stays; the issue for them is how you communicate and yell and make them feel unsafe. They want you to find a better way of managing your feelings and conflict in conversation so you don't make them feel unsafe. You still just want an answer about how long the mother is coming. You are frustrated by having to address the issue of your vocal intonation before getting an answer about the mom; this makes you raise your voice even louder, and makes your partner even more upset.
I think the real question to ask is: why do you feel resistant to learning communication process skills?
posted by corb at 9:06 PM on August 10 [17 favorites]
It sounds like a controlling behavior on her part to me. You ought to be able to buy a $45 widgit without recapitulating some nonsense about "communication structures" she picked up in a psyche class.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:18 AM on August 11
posted by SemiSalt at 5:18 AM on August 11
are you my partner??? Matt is that you?
Haha probably not, but I suspect if he would write out his take on our communication misalignments it would sound nearly identical to this.
I haven’t read all the advice up thread so maybe people already said this, but the simplest way I can give my take is:
When my partner wants to rush to a solution and won’t hear my pleas to contextualize to avoid similar problems in the future, it feels truly crazy-making to me. In our relationship, we have a lot of little things that play out over and over and over and it at times feels like I’m literally going crazy. I just want to be able to get to the ROOT of the problem not keep putting out the same tiny fires in the same places as infinitum. I’m too tired to keep firefighting! It’s not going to end well if I have to keep my firefighting gear on at all times. It leads to burnout and hyper vigilance.
Now that is not to say that I’m not doing crazy-making things back to him. I FEEL myself getting sucked into loops of this dynamic between us where I literally cannot just let a small situation fizzle out without trying to contextualize and problem solve the bigger issue. This is not great and reifies my hyper vigilance and feeling of distance and disconnect from him.
Things ARE getting better for various reasons so I’m happy to say it is possible to break through this!!
Co-sign couples counseling. It is NOT a sign of weakness (in case it occurs that way to you) but a sign of faith in your partnership and a willingness to change things up for the better!
posted by seemoorglass at 6:58 AM on August 11 [7 favorites]
Haha probably not, but I suspect if he would write out his take on our communication misalignments it would sound nearly identical to this.
I haven’t read all the advice up thread so maybe people already said this, but the simplest way I can give my take is:
When my partner wants to rush to a solution and won’t hear my pleas to contextualize to avoid similar problems in the future, it feels truly crazy-making to me. In our relationship, we have a lot of little things that play out over and over and over and it at times feels like I’m literally going crazy. I just want to be able to get to the ROOT of the problem not keep putting out the same tiny fires in the same places as infinitum. I’m too tired to keep firefighting! It’s not going to end well if I have to keep my firefighting gear on at all times. It leads to burnout and hyper vigilance.
Now that is not to say that I’m not doing crazy-making things back to him. I FEEL myself getting sucked into loops of this dynamic between us where I literally cannot just let a small situation fizzle out without trying to contextualize and problem solve the bigger issue. This is not great and reifies my hyper vigilance and feeling of distance and disconnect from him.
Things ARE getting better for various reasons so I’m happy to say it is possible to break through this!!
Co-sign couples counseling. It is NOT a sign of weakness (in case it occurs that way to you) but a sign of faith in your partnership and a willingness to change things up for the better!
posted by seemoorglass at 6:58 AM on August 11 [7 favorites]
Out of curiosity, I looked at your post history and wonder what if anything has changed since your last post and the advice you got there? Genuine question. I can’t help but notice the similarities and it might be helpful for answerers to know whether you are feeling like things are trending in the right direction or are still the same as they were in March.
Just glancing quickly through both though, I think a lot of the input you got in that thread would still apply to this post.
posted by seemoorglass at 7:08 AM on August 11 [1 favorite]
Just glancing quickly through both though, I think a lot of the input you got in that thread would still apply to this post.
posted by seemoorglass at 7:08 AM on August 11 [1 favorite]
After looking at your past question, I’m going to highlight one thing that stands out. In that thread, a number of people told you it was impossible to answer your question unless you gave a specific example of a problem you and your partner were having. But in this Ask, you again failed to give a specific example of a problem you and your partner were having.
This suggests one of a few possibilities.
1. You are extremely sensitive to criticism, and have failed to include it to try to avoid any avenues for people to criticize you.
2. You suspect you are kind of in the wrong in these interactions.
3. You have a habit of not listening to suggestions or advice in conversations, even ones that are trying to be collaborative and helpful.
In all of these cases, I would thing couples counseling would be helpful, but I also think individual counseling might also be helpful. Working on yourself generally makes your relationships with others better.
posted by corb at 7:46 AM on August 11 [12 favorites]
This suggests one of a few possibilities.
1. You are extremely sensitive to criticism, and have failed to include it to try to avoid any avenues for people to criticize you.
2. You suspect you are kind of in the wrong in these interactions.
3. You have a habit of not listening to suggestions or advice in conversations, even ones that are trying to be collaborative and helpful.
In all of these cases, I would thing couples counseling would be helpful, but I also think individual counseling might also be helpful. Working on yourself generally makes your relationships with others better.
posted by corb at 7:46 AM on August 11 [12 favorites]
I mean, it kind of sounds like there’s a history of poor communication here and your partner wants to talk about the deeper issues leading to this pattern and you just want to deal with each specific conflict in the interest of being “practical” while dismissing the deeper issues? It’s fine to put out little fires as they come up but if you don’t do something about the tinder hiding under the surface you’re doomed to repeat this pattern forever.
And your insistence on labeling yourself the “practical” one feels kind of condescending toward her and frankly icky, if I’m being honest.
She has an extremely valid point that you’re just dismissing as impractical. What ARE you doing to address the deeper issues? How are you hearing her perspective and making her feel heard? What is your role in this pattern and how can you improve it? Are you willing to take a step back from your perspective and show enough humility to see that your partner may actually be right about this?
Because if you can’t do any of that, I’m not sure there’s much we can do to help you.
posted by Amy93 at 8:34 AM on August 11 [5 favorites]
And your insistence on labeling yourself the “practical” one feels kind of condescending toward her and frankly icky, if I’m being honest.
She has an extremely valid point that you’re just dismissing as impractical. What ARE you doing to address the deeper issues? How are you hearing her perspective and making her feel heard? What is your role in this pattern and how can you improve it? Are you willing to take a step back from your perspective and show enough humility to see that your partner may actually be right about this?
Because if you can’t do any of that, I’m not sure there’s much we can do to help you.
posted by Amy93 at 8:34 AM on August 11 [5 favorites]
It would be really helpful if you gave an example here. Otherwise we’re all kind of projecting.
I could easily see this as being, to use a cliched example, something like: she gets frustrated because you didn’t put your dirty socks in the hamper. Her frustration is really about the lack of respect for her labor (doing the laundry and other housework), not equally sharing the burden of keeping the home clean, and the fact that she’s had to repeatedly ask, which means you’re not listening and she is forced into the role of nag. The frustration is also because it’s not just the socks, it’s the half-drunk glasses of water around the house, it’s the lack of listening in general, etc. When she brings this up, she wants to address all of it, whereas you just want to quickly throw the socks in the basket and be done with the conversation. So then, on top of all that, you have basically snapped shut, and denied there’s any deeper issue worth discussing.
Obviously that’s all conjecture but that’s all we have to go on. If it’s something like this, though, then I would say that is poor communication on your part. And you do owe her real conversations about the things she actually wants to discuss. Is the right venue for this the sock fight? Maybe not, but are you EVER having these conversations she clearly needs to have?
posted by kapers at 8:41 AM on August 11 [6 favorites]
I could easily see this as being, to use a cliched example, something like: she gets frustrated because you didn’t put your dirty socks in the hamper. Her frustration is really about the lack of respect for her labor (doing the laundry and other housework), not equally sharing the burden of keeping the home clean, and the fact that she’s had to repeatedly ask, which means you’re not listening and she is forced into the role of nag. The frustration is also because it’s not just the socks, it’s the half-drunk glasses of water around the house, it’s the lack of listening in general, etc. When she brings this up, she wants to address all of it, whereas you just want to quickly throw the socks in the basket and be done with the conversation. So then, on top of all that, you have basically snapped shut, and denied there’s any deeper issue worth discussing.
Obviously that’s all conjecture but that’s all we have to go on. If it’s something like this, though, then I would say that is poor communication on your part. And you do owe her real conversations about the things she actually wants to discuss. Is the right venue for this the sock fight? Maybe not, but are you EVER having these conversations she clearly needs to have?
posted by kapers at 8:41 AM on August 11 [6 favorites]
I realize this is something of a pile-on, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you not create hypothetical examples?
Difficult to be charitable when you talk about practical as though you would know what's practical for her and then say she accuses you of skipping steps and lacking structure, and then are annoyed when even if you rush to chose something she suggested.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:46 PM on August 11 [4 favorites]
Difficult to be charitable when you talk about practical as though you would know what's practical for her and then say she accuses you of skipping steps and lacking structure, and then are annoyed when even if you rush to chose something she suggested.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:46 PM on August 11 [4 favorites]
This is too abstract of a question, but I’ll take a stab at it…
If she shuts down because she finds decision making with you annoying, stressful, unsuccessful, that should be the focus of the question, not all this verbiage about “practical issues” and “conversation without structure”.
If she has concerns about patterns and communication issues, don’t get bogged down in, “oh, but it is a practical matter!” (I have no idea what this means? What isn’t a practical matter?).
Maybe deal with her dissatisfaction of patterns?
"I end up feeling it’s impossible to ever address anything specific, practical, and that her unwillingness or inability to just have a conversation without structure means it’ll never actually happen."
What is the structure she is seeking and why is impossible to provide it?
"Or should I resign myself to learning communication structure and process skills with an expectation that the rest will eventually follow?"
Not sure what “communication structure and process skills” even means, but it sounds like you could do better at communication with your partner. I wouldn’t look at it as resigning to do something, its being a good partner.
good luck
posted by rhonzo at 3:34 PM on August 11 [2 favorites]
If she shuts down because she finds decision making with you annoying, stressful, unsuccessful, that should be the focus of the question, not all this verbiage about “practical issues” and “conversation without structure”.
If she has concerns about patterns and communication issues, don’t get bogged down in, “oh, but it is a practical matter!” (I have no idea what this means? What isn’t a practical matter?).
Maybe deal with her dissatisfaction of patterns?
"I end up feeling it’s impossible to ever address anything specific, practical, and that her unwillingness or inability to just have a conversation without structure means it’ll never actually happen."
What is the structure she is seeking and why is impossible to provide it?
"Or should I resign myself to learning communication structure and process skills with an expectation that the rest will eventually follow?"
Not sure what “communication structure and process skills” even means, but it sounds like you could do better at communication with your partner. I wouldn’t look at it as resigning to do something, its being a good partner.
good luck
posted by rhonzo at 3:34 PM on August 11 [2 favorites]
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posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:31 PM on August 10 [6 favorites]