How to deal with husband's complaining, unwillingness to help himself?
August 3, 2024 7:50 AM Subscribe
My husband complains all the time about various aches, pains, and ailments, but doesn't do much to better his health. It's gotten to the point where I find it hard to be supportive. How do I draw boundaries while not being dismissive of real concerns?
My husband and I are both in our early 40's, and I worry that these issues (and my resentment) will worsen as we continue to age. There is always something the matter with him. This hurts, that's achy, he feels bloated all the time. He goes to the doctor and gets tests, they come back with results indicating mild wear and tear, nothing unusual for his age, but he acts like it's the end for him. He's very dramatic about it all. His doctor tells him that his aches and pains would likely improve if he wasn't overweight, but he insists that his weight is normal. He goes straight to the sofa after work and cracks open a beer and a bag of chips. He golfs a couple times a week and insists that he is fit.
Perhaps contradictory to the above, he has spent thousands of dollars over the past couple years on a road bike, stationary bike, and a bench and set of weights. They are all collecting dust or laundry. An entire room in our house is dedicated to this equipment that he doesn't use. When I ask why he doesn't use the equipment anymore, he has a million excuses. He's tired, he has indigestion, he might be coming down with a cold, there's always something.
I do my best to stay active and I've asked him countless times if he'd like to join me. I've tried offering all kinds of different sports and activities, everything from fast-paced and fun to relaxing and low-impact. He's not interested in any of it. I lift weights at the gym twice a week, play team rec sports twice a week, and try to do a pilates class or a long walk at least once a week. I do all these things with friends instead of him, since he refuses to take part. I see my friends enjoying things like sports, hikes, and fitness classes with their partners and feel sad that my husband and I don't have that basis for connection. We both work full-time, so I find that we spend less and less time together.
We're not going to have kids. As we age, all we'll have is each other. I've watched certain members of the older generation in my family completely give up on their health in their 40's and 50's and live out their 60's and 70's in misery as a result. I didn't sign up for that. When my husband and I were dating, and early in our marriage, he was still very active. He used to have a membership at multiple gyms, work out regularly, run, and play team sports. I don't know how to tell him that I miss that version of him, and was much more attracted to him then.
I don't know how to talk to him about my fears and concerns. He is very defensive when it comes to his health. I simply can't listen anymore to him complaining about how he feels like crap all the time, and then watch him sit there like a log, eating and drinking whatever. And of course, I hate to think of what will happen ten, twenty years down the road. His father and brother are both in horrible health. I'm also cognizant of the fact that maybe he complains so much because he feels unseen and unheard. Am I centering myself too much here? Do I need to be kinder to him? How do I be kind without enabling? How do I tell when he's complaining just to complain, and when something might be seriously wrong?
My husband and I are both in our early 40's, and I worry that these issues (and my resentment) will worsen as we continue to age. There is always something the matter with him. This hurts, that's achy, he feels bloated all the time. He goes to the doctor and gets tests, they come back with results indicating mild wear and tear, nothing unusual for his age, but he acts like it's the end for him. He's very dramatic about it all. His doctor tells him that his aches and pains would likely improve if he wasn't overweight, but he insists that his weight is normal. He goes straight to the sofa after work and cracks open a beer and a bag of chips. He golfs a couple times a week and insists that he is fit.
Perhaps contradictory to the above, he has spent thousands of dollars over the past couple years on a road bike, stationary bike, and a bench and set of weights. They are all collecting dust or laundry. An entire room in our house is dedicated to this equipment that he doesn't use. When I ask why he doesn't use the equipment anymore, he has a million excuses. He's tired, he has indigestion, he might be coming down with a cold, there's always something.
I do my best to stay active and I've asked him countless times if he'd like to join me. I've tried offering all kinds of different sports and activities, everything from fast-paced and fun to relaxing and low-impact. He's not interested in any of it. I lift weights at the gym twice a week, play team rec sports twice a week, and try to do a pilates class or a long walk at least once a week. I do all these things with friends instead of him, since he refuses to take part. I see my friends enjoying things like sports, hikes, and fitness classes with their partners and feel sad that my husband and I don't have that basis for connection. We both work full-time, so I find that we spend less and less time together.
We're not going to have kids. As we age, all we'll have is each other. I've watched certain members of the older generation in my family completely give up on their health in their 40's and 50's and live out their 60's and 70's in misery as a result. I didn't sign up for that. When my husband and I were dating, and early in our marriage, he was still very active. He used to have a membership at multiple gyms, work out regularly, run, and play team sports. I don't know how to tell him that I miss that version of him, and was much more attracted to him then.
I don't know how to talk to him about my fears and concerns. He is very defensive when it comes to his health. I simply can't listen anymore to him complaining about how he feels like crap all the time, and then watch him sit there like a log, eating and drinking whatever. And of course, I hate to think of what will happen ten, twenty years down the road. His father and brother are both in horrible health. I'm also cognizant of the fact that maybe he complains so much because he feels unseen and unheard. Am I centering myself too much here? Do I need to be kinder to him? How do I be kind without enabling? How do I tell when he's complaining just to complain, and when something might be seriously wrong?
Sounds like my husband and I had to do two things: ignore him, stop giving him advice, and develop a sense of humor. He started taking care of his health a little too late in life, but that was his problem, not mine, except I had to be his caregiver while he was dying of the cancer that wasn't actually his fault because we all die of something.
Off to the gym.
posted by Peach at 8:08 AM on August 3 [25 favorites]
Off to the gym.
posted by Peach at 8:08 AM on August 3 [25 favorites]
I would send him a modified version of this post. Take out some things, like how he's defensive when it comes to his health and “very dramatic” in his complaints. Leave in how you want to help but aren't sure how, and how you're worried about the future. It's often easier to process something like this in writing without getting defensive.
posted by wheatlets at 8:09 AM on August 3
posted by wheatlets at 8:09 AM on August 3
How is his mental health? Changes in behaviour and lack of interest in doing activities one once enjoyed are potential signs of depression. Rumination over health concerns can be an anxiety issue. Self-medication with eating + drinking + TV would be not unusual. Focusing on evaluating that aspect of health or at least ruling it out could help. Your post is framed in a way suggesting that your husband is choosing not to use willpower to change these things, and while that may be the case, it is not the only possible explanation. That said, if it is depression, for example, compassionate support in offering activities to do is a reasonable approach, and it may be that you choose to limit talking about certain topics at the point where you can't handle it. You could talk to a therapist or a trusted friend about how to bring this up with him and suggest evaluation for other health issues, or ask another question here.
posted by lookoutbelow at 8:19 AM on August 3 [19 favorites]
posted by lookoutbelow at 8:19 AM on August 3 [19 favorites]
When he goes golfing, is he walking the course or riding on a golf cart?
posted by flabdablet at 8:24 AM on August 3 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:24 AM on August 3 [2 favorites]
How is his mental health? Changes in behaviour and lack of interest in doing activities one once enjoyed are potential signs of depression.
I came to ask this question, too. What is he like in other areas of his life, e.g. is he enthusiastic about his job, or is he just dragging himself to work because he has to? How is the rest of your marriage, e.g. your sex life, your overall rapport and shared interests? Does he have social connections, friendships, family relationships, other interests that get him going? If any of these are also out of whack, it's possible that this behaviour is a sign of something much deeper. I second the suggestion to talk to a therapist or other health professional about what to watch out for and how to bring it up.
Also, as someone who has struggled with weight issues for a long time, I want to remind you that these things can cause a lot of shame, and that can lead to defensiveness and doubling down on the behaviour. It's not logical, but it happens. This is not something your husband is doing "to you," so if you can avoid falling into a pattern of thinking that he is somehow refusing to cooperate in order to get attention or hold you back, that will go a long way towards really helping him. People in the grip of shame can often sense those attitudes in those close to them, and that doesn't make anything better.
That said, you have the right to live a healthy, active life, without being subject to someone else's chronic complaining and inaction. I recently had to have a difficult conversation with a friend whose constant rumination over various health symptoms, coupled with a refusal to actually take action on the problems, was causing me anxiety. I told them that while I had empathy for their situation, and was there for them if they ever needed concrete assistance in seeking medical help, I could no longer be a sounding board for them on this subject due to my own reaction. They didn't like it, but they understood, especially since I framed it as a "me" problem. You also have the right to draw a similar boundary.
The bottom line is that while it's possible your husband has decided that this is how he wants to live--in which case you have to decide what you want for yourself--it would be worth taking a holistic approach to the issue, while protecting your own mental health, before making that assessment.
posted by rpfields at 8:43 AM on August 3 [9 favorites]
I came to ask this question, too. What is he like in other areas of his life, e.g. is he enthusiastic about his job, or is he just dragging himself to work because he has to? How is the rest of your marriage, e.g. your sex life, your overall rapport and shared interests? Does he have social connections, friendships, family relationships, other interests that get him going? If any of these are also out of whack, it's possible that this behaviour is a sign of something much deeper. I second the suggestion to talk to a therapist or other health professional about what to watch out for and how to bring it up.
Also, as someone who has struggled with weight issues for a long time, I want to remind you that these things can cause a lot of shame, and that can lead to defensiveness and doubling down on the behaviour. It's not logical, but it happens. This is not something your husband is doing "to you," so if you can avoid falling into a pattern of thinking that he is somehow refusing to cooperate in order to get attention or hold you back, that will go a long way towards really helping him. People in the grip of shame can often sense those attitudes in those close to them, and that doesn't make anything better.
That said, you have the right to live a healthy, active life, without being subject to someone else's chronic complaining and inaction. I recently had to have a difficult conversation with a friend whose constant rumination over various health symptoms, coupled with a refusal to actually take action on the problems, was causing me anxiety. I told them that while I had empathy for their situation, and was there for them if they ever needed concrete assistance in seeking medical help, I could no longer be a sounding board for them on this subject due to my own reaction. They didn't like it, but they understood, especially since I framed it as a "me" problem. You also have the right to draw a similar boundary.
The bottom line is that while it's possible your husband has decided that this is how he wants to live--in which case you have to decide what you want for yourself--it would be worth taking a holistic approach to the issue, while protecting your own mental health, before making that assessment.
posted by rpfields at 8:43 AM on August 3 [9 favorites]
I read a book that I think might help - The Courage to be Disliked. It’s popular enough to be in most libraries and a short read.
It suggests that with other people, including our closest people, the road to happiness is to identify which tasks are yours and which are theirs and to not intrude on their tasks. No matter how well meaning, it creates a hierarchy (I know what you should be doing) and ultimately disappointment when the other person doesn’t do what you think they should.
So in this instance, his body, his lack of activity, and his pain is his task. Your task, if you choose, is to offer assistance if he needs it and if he asks for something, and it’s something you wish to offer, to help. But anything other than that remains his task and proactively trying to get him to do things only serves to disappoint you when he doesn’t.
At least personally, this has really helped me, because I am a bit of an empathetic sponge. I tend to take on people’s troubles and feel like because I could help, I have to help. But being able to say “I’m sorry you feel bad - if I can help, let me know” and not go further proactively has really helped my close relationships. I don’t feel as resentful about people’s choices not to do what I would do if I was them, and in turn do not feel so overwhelmed by hearing the difficulties those I care most about are having.
It may be a worthwhile read - it’s not a perfect book, but that part in particular I think helped me with family members who sound a lot like your husband.
posted by openhearted at 8:46 AM on August 3 [46 favorites]
It suggests that with other people, including our closest people, the road to happiness is to identify which tasks are yours and which are theirs and to not intrude on their tasks. No matter how well meaning, it creates a hierarchy (I know what you should be doing) and ultimately disappointment when the other person doesn’t do what you think they should.
So in this instance, his body, his lack of activity, and his pain is his task. Your task, if you choose, is to offer assistance if he needs it and if he asks for something, and it’s something you wish to offer, to help. But anything other than that remains his task and proactively trying to get him to do things only serves to disappoint you when he doesn’t.
At least personally, this has really helped me, because I am a bit of an empathetic sponge. I tend to take on people’s troubles and feel like because I could help, I have to help. But being able to say “I’m sorry you feel bad - if I can help, let me know” and not go further proactively has really helped my close relationships. I don’t feel as resentful about people’s choices not to do what I would do if I was them, and in turn do not feel so overwhelmed by hearing the difficulties those I care most about are having.
It may be a worthwhile read - it’s not a perfect book, but that part in particular I think helped me with family members who sound a lot like your husband.
posted by openhearted at 8:46 AM on August 3 [46 favorites]
Is it possible this is depression? Men still resist diagnosis and treatment, but screening is a good idea. Self-screening.
I htink it's fair to tell him that he is using a lot of resources - room full of equipment and lots and lots of emotional labor - on his health, and that it's not fair. That you would love to help, you'd enjoy his company when you walk, exercise, etc., but that the situation is very frustrating.
Ask him what he wants from you as a response. Tell him he needs to reduce the emotional burden on you. Talk about it. as I type, depression seems more and more likely. Exhaustion is a symptom of depression. Good luck.
posted by theora55 at 8:55 AM on August 3 [3 favorites]
I htink it's fair to tell him that he is using a lot of resources - room full of equipment and lots and lots of emotional labor - on his health, and that it's not fair. That you would love to help, you'd enjoy his company when you walk, exercise, etc., but that the situation is very frustrating.
Ask him what he wants from you as a response. Tell him he needs to reduce the emotional burden on you. Talk about it. as I type, depression seems more and more likely. Exhaustion is a symptom of depression. Good luck.
posted by theora55 at 8:55 AM on August 3 [3 favorites]
Even if it's not depression exactly, he might be very well-served by talking to someone other than you about this. Hitting middle age involves some big revisions of self-image, and going from someone who was happily and easily athletic to someone who has to put time and care into staying fit and healthy, and even then having more pain and fatigue than before, can be super upsetting. You can't make someone go to therapy, but you would be well within your rights to declare the subject above your pay grade.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:59 AM on August 3 [8 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 8:59 AM on August 3 [8 favorites]
You and your husband's physician are both making the mistake of conflating activity/fitness level, health/physical well-being, and weight, which are three distinct, though sometimes interrelated, concepts. If you are doing this in your approach to him, and it sounds like you are, I would focus on that first because it's within your control and is likely not helping if your husband is indeed experiencing depression, body image issues, or other barriers to increasing his activity levels or working on nutrition. For you, I highly recommend a tour through fat athlete Instagram.
I might also consider whether your husband could benefit from a new physician, which is something I think could be in your lane to encourage. Because he's not "doing nothing" about how he's feeling -- he's trying to investigate it and get help with it by going to an appropriate professional, unsuccessfully.
posted by LadyInWaiting at 9:03 AM on August 3 [11 favorites]
I might also consider whether your husband could benefit from a new physician, which is something I think could be in your lane to encourage. Because he's not "doing nothing" about how he's feeling -- he's trying to investigate it and get help with it by going to an appropriate professional, unsuccessfully.
posted by LadyInWaiting at 9:03 AM on August 3 [11 favorites]
he could have a variety of autoimmune inflammatory illnesses that a) are treatable and b) would cause both the symptoms you mentioned and difficulty, potentially, with feeling ok invigorated by exercising .. rheumatologists are the most "dr house-y" of all doctors, he could try to get one, or his gp, to order a rheumatology panel of bloodwork .. of course maybe he already did, but if not it's important.. like so important.. to rule out bc many conditions are treatable amd treatment can give quality of life, prevent future loss of mobility, and reduce chronic pain. if its impossible to get a rheum appt quickly, and you can afford it, you can order the panel yourself from some place like ulta labs, print out the form, take it to quest, get the results, and send them to your doctor. some tests are quite cheap in there, others spendy.. but think 20-200 dollar range.. they have packages.. depends how many you get, etc
hope this helps. sorry for typos. in general.. well, anything shaming is never a motivator.. im pretty sure I believe that unequivocally.
posted by elgee at 9:14 AM on August 3 [4 favorites]
hope this helps. sorry for typos. in general.. well, anything shaming is never a motivator.. im pretty sure I believe that unequivocally.
posted by elgee at 9:14 AM on August 3 [4 favorites]
Okay, first of all, forget you having some ability to make him change and become more like you. It's not going to happen.
Second of all, presume he is reporting his feeling as he experiencing them, that he is genuinely sore and unable to motivate himself. He's not choosing to be gay, or choosing to be black, or choosing to make himself fat, or choosing to be unhealthy and in minor unrelenting chronic pain. He is telling the truth and doesn't not have some secret agenda to slack off and become dependent on you. He doesn't have a secret agenda that has him planning to die first. It's just too implausible that he is doing it because he wants to spite you or he wants to self destruct.
Next work on accepting the fact that for some people exercise makes them feel crappier rather than better, and many pre-diabetics go on weight loss and blood sugar control diets and stick to them strictly and they don't actually work, because for a great many of them there is an underlying metabolic or immune disorder that is progressively getting worse. That bag of chips, or the week of not going outside at all is not the cause of the disorder, nor is it even making the disorder worse. The bag of chips and the coach potato evenings are a result of the disorder. They are symptoms, not causes.
People who get a runners' high often find it impossible to believe that there is a large cohort of people who do not feel better when they exercise, they just feel sore and tired. But there are people who have different metabolic speeds and different rates of recovery, and ones who have less resilient soft tissue that stays inflamed for longer after impact sports, and there are people who produce less dopamine than others, with the result that that burst of vitality and pleasure you get when you are active is just not ever going to happen for them. Sadder yet, it may not ever happen for them again, even thought it once did.
So please, accept that if you could make him diet and exercise he wouldn't become an enthusiastic athlete, any more than a kid dragged to church is going to become a saint, nor a gay guy married off to the prettiest women in the village is going to become straight. If he cooperates, you can do a lot with cram school. If the kid dragged to church is frightened enough of hellfire they will try hard to be a saint, and if the gay guy believes that he can be cured he will do his level best to be the eager straight husband. But you're not doing any of them any favours, if you manage to exert that much control over them, because you are not allowing them autonomy. You're just being over controlling. And the kid that gets sent to cram school is very likely to hate his life, and be miserable and find a solution in buying exam results so they don't have to keep studying and struggling, and the kid that got dragged to church is likely to learn all the right lip service and be a resentful hypocrite, and the gay guy is likely to have a secret inner life.
You're not wrong to love health and exercise and vitality, any more than it's wrong to love having straight sex, or be entranced by learning new information, or love feeling safe and connected as a part of a good religious community. It's just that if you try to impose them on someone else, you are crossing a line.
It's perfectly fair to say that as he gets less into being active and you get more into being active, the two of you are growing apart. It sounds like that is going on. And it's perfectly reasonable to like the way you are, more than the way he is. If you had done a little traveling with him during your early relationship, and as the years wore on you had gotten more into doing it and he had gotten less into it, you'd be disappointed. If you were starting to think of early retirement and exotic travel as the direction you wanted your life to go, and he was clearly showing signs of not just putting down roots, but starting to his community into his reason for life, naturally you'd be unhappy. Or if he decided those "maybe we could have a kid" kids, that got lightly mentioned when you first got together, were now something he really wanted - in fact, two, closely spaced had struck him as exactly what would make your lives complete, just as you started to feel relieved that the possibility of parenting was definitely going to be ruled out, the two of you would be looking at each other bleakly across the room. What happened to that person I married with all that potential?
So what do you DO with your crap feelings about your husband? Resentment, irritation, revulsion, depression, feeling cheated, feeling fear.... well you face that and you label it clearly and correctly to yourself and you look at the underlying feelings that are creating the surface feelings.
I personally don't think that couples counseling is called for here, because this is really a you thing, not an us thing. It's very possible he is very unhappy about the way his health is going, the same as you are - in fact, he probably hates it even more than you do, because for him it physically hurts and he can't do things he wants to. But sharing with your husband that you find him a disappointment is only going to make wounds, without changing the situation. I think you can assume that if he could make these changes you want, using his love for you as a motivation, he would be making them already. Because after all, who wants to sit on a couch and eat potato chips when they could be running a trail and eagerly pointing out the glory of a green August to an equally eager running partner?
So if you end up saying something in couple's counseling that amounts to "If you loved me, you'd become athletic" it would feel no different to him than the way you would feel if he said, 'If you loved me, you'd get plastic surgery and always wear make up so that I could pretend you were still twenty." You'd be telling him that the natural progression of age and human fragility makes him less appealing to you. You might get to a point in couples counseling where you end up concluding that you'd like to stick with him, even if he is going to die young, unhealthy and expensively, and you might both feel very happy and close after you make that decision. But more likely the happy and close feeling after you make that decision will feel good because it's a contrast to the feelings of pain and rejection and inadequacy that you make him feel, and the guilt that you feel from having made someone you love feel rejected and inadequate. If you are going to decide to stay with him, why not skip the part where you drag him to counseling to tell him, "I don't know if I want to be with you anymore."
I think this is for you to turn inward and think about what you want out of life, and what it is realistic to get, or to expect from other people, and what kind of a relationship you want with your husband - as opposed to what kind of person you want him to be. It may be that if he is headed down a path where he can't be the partner you want, you'll have to consider if the relationship still has long term potential. Or maybe you can think of what kind of a relationship you could have with him, if he's going to be slow and inactive and uncomfortable for the rest of his life.
But I don't think that there is any way you can change him or the path he is on. You can support him whatever he does, and whatever happens to him, or you can choose not to support him. You can't realistically coax him into having a different life, nor can you stage a successful come-to-Jesus intervention unless his body has the capacity to heal and your intervention is what he himself wants and knows he needs. If you wants you to intervene, he will have asked you to already.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:48 AM on August 3 [29 favorites]
Second of all, presume he is reporting his feeling as he experiencing them, that he is genuinely sore and unable to motivate himself. He's not choosing to be gay, or choosing to be black, or choosing to make himself fat, or choosing to be unhealthy and in minor unrelenting chronic pain. He is telling the truth and doesn't not have some secret agenda to slack off and become dependent on you. He doesn't have a secret agenda that has him planning to die first. It's just too implausible that he is doing it because he wants to spite you or he wants to self destruct.
Next work on accepting the fact that for some people exercise makes them feel crappier rather than better, and many pre-diabetics go on weight loss and blood sugar control diets and stick to them strictly and they don't actually work, because for a great many of them there is an underlying metabolic or immune disorder that is progressively getting worse. That bag of chips, or the week of not going outside at all is not the cause of the disorder, nor is it even making the disorder worse. The bag of chips and the coach potato evenings are a result of the disorder. They are symptoms, not causes.
People who get a runners' high often find it impossible to believe that there is a large cohort of people who do not feel better when they exercise, they just feel sore and tired. But there are people who have different metabolic speeds and different rates of recovery, and ones who have less resilient soft tissue that stays inflamed for longer after impact sports, and there are people who produce less dopamine than others, with the result that that burst of vitality and pleasure you get when you are active is just not ever going to happen for them. Sadder yet, it may not ever happen for them again, even thought it once did.
So please, accept that if you could make him diet and exercise he wouldn't become an enthusiastic athlete, any more than a kid dragged to church is going to become a saint, nor a gay guy married off to the prettiest women in the village is going to become straight. If he cooperates, you can do a lot with cram school. If the kid dragged to church is frightened enough of hellfire they will try hard to be a saint, and if the gay guy believes that he can be cured he will do his level best to be the eager straight husband. But you're not doing any of them any favours, if you manage to exert that much control over them, because you are not allowing them autonomy. You're just being over controlling. And the kid that gets sent to cram school is very likely to hate his life, and be miserable and find a solution in buying exam results so they don't have to keep studying and struggling, and the kid that got dragged to church is likely to learn all the right lip service and be a resentful hypocrite, and the gay guy is likely to have a secret inner life.
You're not wrong to love health and exercise and vitality, any more than it's wrong to love having straight sex, or be entranced by learning new information, or love feeling safe and connected as a part of a good religious community. It's just that if you try to impose them on someone else, you are crossing a line.
It's perfectly fair to say that as he gets less into being active and you get more into being active, the two of you are growing apart. It sounds like that is going on. And it's perfectly reasonable to like the way you are, more than the way he is. If you had done a little traveling with him during your early relationship, and as the years wore on you had gotten more into doing it and he had gotten less into it, you'd be disappointed. If you were starting to think of early retirement and exotic travel as the direction you wanted your life to go, and he was clearly showing signs of not just putting down roots, but starting to his community into his reason for life, naturally you'd be unhappy. Or if he decided those "maybe we could have a kid" kids, that got lightly mentioned when you first got together, were now something he really wanted - in fact, two, closely spaced had struck him as exactly what would make your lives complete, just as you started to feel relieved that the possibility of parenting was definitely going to be ruled out, the two of you would be looking at each other bleakly across the room. What happened to that person I married with all that potential?
So what do you DO with your crap feelings about your husband? Resentment, irritation, revulsion, depression, feeling cheated, feeling fear.... well you face that and you label it clearly and correctly to yourself and you look at the underlying feelings that are creating the surface feelings.
I personally don't think that couples counseling is called for here, because this is really a you thing, not an us thing. It's very possible he is very unhappy about the way his health is going, the same as you are - in fact, he probably hates it even more than you do, because for him it physically hurts and he can't do things he wants to. But sharing with your husband that you find him a disappointment is only going to make wounds, without changing the situation. I think you can assume that if he could make these changes you want, using his love for you as a motivation, he would be making them already. Because after all, who wants to sit on a couch and eat potato chips when they could be running a trail and eagerly pointing out the glory of a green August to an equally eager running partner?
So if you end up saying something in couple's counseling that amounts to "If you loved me, you'd become athletic" it would feel no different to him than the way you would feel if he said, 'If you loved me, you'd get plastic surgery and always wear make up so that I could pretend you were still twenty." You'd be telling him that the natural progression of age and human fragility makes him less appealing to you. You might get to a point in couples counseling where you end up concluding that you'd like to stick with him, even if he is going to die young, unhealthy and expensively, and you might both feel very happy and close after you make that decision. But more likely the happy and close feeling after you make that decision will feel good because it's a contrast to the feelings of pain and rejection and inadequacy that you make him feel, and the guilt that you feel from having made someone you love feel rejected and inadequate. If you are going to decide to stay with him, why not skip the part where you drag him to counseling to tell him, "I don't know if I want to be with you anymore."
I think this is for you to turn inward and think about what you want out of life, and what it is realistic to get, or to expect from other people, and what kind of a relationship you want with your husband - as opposed to what kind of person you want him to be. It may be that if he is headed down a path where he can't be the partner you want, you'll have to consider if the relationship still has long term potential. Or maybe you can think of what kind of a relationship you could have with him, if he's going to be slow and inactive and uncomfortable for the rest of his life.
But I don't think that there is any way you can change him or the path he is on. You can support him whatever he does, and whatever happens to him, or you can choose not to support him. You can't realistically coax him into having a different life, nor can you stage a successful come-to-Jesus intervention unless his body has the capacity to heal and your intervention is what he himself wants and knows he needs. If you wants you to intervene, he will have asked you to already.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:48 AM on August 3 [29 favorites]
You're not going to be able to change your husband's habits or health priorities. You can certainly encourage him to seek both a therapist and a second opinion on the medical stuf. He wouldn't be the first person to have serious medical issues dismissed by a doctor because he is also overweight, so I wouldn't at all rule out that he's not "dramatic" but in serious pain and discomfort that his doctor is undertreating.
Beyond that, it sounds like it's time for you to do serious introspection, perhaps with a therapist, about what you need to make you happy, what parts of that you need to get from your partner vs. other important people in your life vs. your own efforts, and whether you want to spend your life with your partner as he is now, not a version of him that you hope he might be able to become. Outcomes of that might range anywhere from a divorce to 'setting firmer boundaries around what you're willing to talk about if nothing will come of the conversation, and then cheerfully heading out to hike with friends.'
This is a rough thing to navigate, and I hope you come out of it with a version of a life you can be happy in, whatever that ends up looking like.
posted by Stacey at 10:09 AM on August 3 [8 favorites]
Beyond that, it sounds like it's time for you to do serious introspection, perhaps with a therapist, about what you need to make you happy, what parts of that you need to get from your partner vs. other important people in your life vs. your own efforts, and whether you want to spend your life with your partner as he is now, not a version of him that you hope he might be able to become. Outcomes of that might range anywhere from a divorce to 'setting firmer boundaries around what you're willing to talk about if nothing will come of the conversation, and then cheerfully heading out to hike with friends.'
This is a rough thing to navigate, and I hope you come out of it with a version of a life you can be happy in, whatever that ends up looking like.
posted by Stacey at 10:09 AM on August 3 [8 favorites]
I have had "various aches, pains, and ailments" for way too many years now, which has given me the chance to notice a few things.
One is that a lot of us have a tendency to think in terms of quick or total solutions. If I just did this kind of exercise this many times a week, that would fix it. If I just went to this doctor, or that doctor, that would fix it. If I just ate differently or took this supplement, that would fix it. If I just got therapy or meditated or did yoga, that would fix it. (And of course if I just embraced religion/The Secret/some self help book...)
I wonder if your husband might be having some feelings about this, conscious or unconscious. Maybe he believes it too, in whole or in part, so when he gets on his bike once or twice and it doesn't "fix it" right away he gets so discouraged that he drops the whole thing. Or maybe he's subconsciously afraid it won't work and doesn't want to give that a chance to happen - he'd rather keep the hypothetical possibility open that if he did just start exercising more, it would all be fixed. Or maybe he's so tired of hearing people's suggestions to just do their one quick fix that he's shying away from the whole "fix yourself" mentality.
I think if you end up having a talk with him about trying to change things, you need to say (and believe) that there's no way of knowing what will help, or even if anything will help; and that even things that help might help a little but not eliminate the problem completely. Also that trying new things - getting your hopes up every time - can become hard and deeply, emotionally exhausting. So it becomes a matter of experimenting: you decide to try one thing for one month, let's say, and see if it makes any difference. If it does, okay; even if it's not a total fix, at minimum you have some extra information, and maybe you get to feel slightly better even if only for a while. If it doesn't, okay, you can cross that off the list. But also: if it doesn't, that's discouraging and can feel like crap; that's a good time to have some support from the people around you, instead of the usual "well maybe you didn't try hard enough" or "I fixed it, I don't know why you can't."
Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of doctors, therapists, and other professionals are often wrong, or hasty or incomplete in their analyses. So even if "fixing it" is a long shot, it can still be worth getting multiple opinions when it turns out the initial recommendations don't alleviate much. But that can also get exhausting and dispiriting, and doctors & co. often discourage patients who seem to be trying too hard to find actual solutions - you start hearing that you're exaggerating, it's psychosomatic, you're a hypochondriac, you just want attention. It's not impossible your husband has gotten a hint of that and doesn't want to push, especially since he's been getting the old "just eat better and lose weight" treatment. Who wants to go to a doctor when you expect it to be the same old struggle to get actual help - one that you're bound to lose? And you get to feel judged while you're at it?
One more thing I've noticed is that people's perceptions about how much you complain can be different than your own. Like, I'm pretty sure I almost never really talk about how I'm feeling - to the point where for years I didn't mention it at all and most people had no idea I wasn't fine. (This is partly because I know some people with whom seemingly every conversation revolves around how bad they feel and I hate listening to it, so I default to the other extreme.) But after things started to get so bad that I started to have to turn down invitations to things I can't do anymore, and actually started explaining why instead of having people think I didn't want to spend time with them, or that I was just a lazy layabout just wasting my life for no reason - ever since then I've learned that to some people, that means that they now associate me with me talking about how I'm not well. Which they find super dramatic - after all, everybody's tired, everybody has aches and pains, right? And other people will always ask me "how are you?" and so on every time they see me, and usually I just go with variations on "fine"... but when you feel like crap 365 days a year, once in a while you do actually want to answer "crap". Especially when people seem to actually believe words like "fine", and then conclude that you're not actually as sick as you say. (Another fun one is "So, what have you been up to today/this week?" The real answer - "nothing, because I had to spend it all in bed" - is such a downer that you basically can't use it without you becoming an exaggerating self-pitier who is failing to fix herself.)
All of which is to say - does your husband just volunteer this stuff constantly, like you say "good morning" and he says "it's a lousy morning, I feel like crap"? Or is it more of a "How are you feeling today?" "Honestly, crap" kind of exchange?
(Not saying that's the case, since as mentioned I know a lot of complainers - but make sure it's not him just giving honest responses to your prompts.)
All this said: watching someone complain and then do absolutely nothing about it is hard, I know. I do hope your husband starts doing some experiments - even very short ones. I hope he keeps track of whether they actually make things worse (long covid, as just one example, can mean that exercising just knocks you flat on your back sooner or later). I also hope he starts thinking about what keeps him from doing things - and if it's something like depression or anhedonia, sometimes that has physical causes (thyroid issues or sleep apnea, for example) that are worth ruling out.
But I'd talk with him gently, and make sure first to convince yourself that the "you can just fix it!" mentality is neither helpful nor, all too often, correct. Let him know that you know that a whole lot of things won't work for him, even if they work for other people, and you won't judge him for not getting fixed by one approach or another.
One thing that might speak to him is "You're just in your forties now. If you keep feeling this bad for the next thirty to fifty years... is that all right?" Hopefully he'll be up for spending one or two years trying to see if he can spare himself that.
I wouldn't make any specific suggestions of things to try, but tell him that you'll support him and help him with anything he needs. (For example, elimination diets are a pain in the neck - it's much easier when you have someone helping you to prepare foods you can eat.) And if he goes to a doctor or takes any kind of step, hug him, thank him for trying, whether it ends up being a helpful step or not. You love him and you thank him for taking care of the person you love.
And talk with him generally about whether he's happy. With his life, his job, his location, his friends...
posted by trig at 10:56 AM on August 3 [11 favorites]
One is that a lot of us have a tendency to think in terms of quick or total solutions. If I just did this kind of exercise this many times a week, that would fix it. If I just went to this doctor, or that doctor, that would fix it. If I just ate differently or took this supplement, that would fix it. If I just got therapy or meditated or did yoga, that would fix it. (And of course if I just embraced religion/The Secret/some self help book...)
I wonder if your husband might be having some feelings about this, conscious or unconscious. Maybe he believes it too, in whole or in part, so when he gets on his bike once or twice and it doesn't "fix it" right away he gets so discouraged that he drops the whole thing. Or maybe he's subconsciously afraid it won't work and doesn't want to give that a chance to happen - he'd rather keep the hypothetical possibility open that if he did just start exercising more, it would all be fixed. Or maybe he's so tired of hearing people's suggestions to just do their one quick fix that he's shying away from the whole "fix yourself" mentality.
I think if you end up having a talk with him about trying to change things, you need to say (and believe) that there's no way of knowing what will help, or even if anything will help; and that even things that help might help a little but not eliminate the problem completely. Also that trying new things - getting your hopes up every time - can become hard and deeply, emotionally exhausting. So it becomes a matter of experimenting: you decide to try one thing for one month, let's say, and see if it makes any difference. If it does, okay; even if it's not a total fix, at minimum you have some extra information, and maybe you get to feel slightly better even if only for a while. If it doesn't, okay, you can cross that off the list. But also: if it doesn't, that's discouraging and can feel like crap; that's a good time to have some support from the people around you, instead of the usual "well maybe you didn't try hard enough" or "I fixed it, I don't know why you can't."
Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of doctors, therapists, and other professionals are often wrong, or hasty or incomplete in their analyses. So even if "fixing it" is a long shot, it can still be worth getting multiple opinions when it turns out the initial recommendations don't alleviate much. But that can also get exhausting and dispiriting, and doctors & co. often discourage patients who seem to be trying too hard to find actual solutions - you start hearing that you're exaggerating, it's psychosomatic, you're a hypochondriac, you just want attention. It's not impossible your husband has gotten a hint of that and doesn't want to push, especially since he's been getting the old "just eat better and lose weight" treatment. Who wants to go to a doctor when you expect it to be the same old struggle to get actual help - one that you're bound to lose? And you get to feel judged while you're at it?
One more thing I've noticed is that people's perceptions about how much you complain can be different than your own. Like, I'm pretty sure I almost never really talk about how I'm feeling - to the point where for years I didn't mention it at all and most people had no idea I wasn't fine. (This is partly because I know some people with whom seemingly every conversation revolves around how bad they feel and I hate listening to it, so I default to the other extreme.) But after things started to get so bad that I started to have to turn down invitations to things I can't do anymore, and actually started explaining why instead of having people think I didn't want to spend time with them, or that I was just a lazy layabout just wasting my life for no reason - ever since then I've learned that to some people, that means that they now associate me with me talking about how I'm not well. Which they find super dramatic - after all, everybody's tired, everybody has aches and pains, right? And other people will always ask me "how are you?" and so on every time they see me, and usually I just go with variations on "fine"... but when you feel like crap 365 days a year, once in a while you do actually want to answer "crap". Especially when people seem to actually believe words like "fine", and then conclude that you're not actually as sick as you say. (Another fun one is "So, what have you been up to today/this week?" The real answer - "nothing, because I had to spend it all in bed" - is such a downer that you basically can't use it without you becoming an exaggerating self-pitier who is failing to fix herself.)
All of which is to say - does your husband just volunteer this stuff constantly, like you say "good morning" and he says "it's a lousy morning, I feel like crap"? Or is it more of a "How are you feeling today?" "Honestly, crap" kind of exchange?
(Not saying that's the case, since as mentioned I know a lot of complainers - but make sure it's not him just giving honest responses to your prompts.)
All this said: watching someone complain and then do absolutely nothing about it is hard, I know. I do hope your husband starts doing some experiments - even very short ones. I hope he keeps track of whether they actually make things worse (long covid, as just one example, can mean that exercising just knocks you flat on your back sooner or later). I also hope he starts thinking about what keeps him from doing things - and if it's something like depression or anhedonia, sometimes that has physical causes (thyroid issues or sleep apnea, for example) that are worth ruling out.
But I'd talk with him gently, and make sure first to convince yourself that the "you can just fix it!" mentality is neither helpful nor, all too often, correct. Let him know that you know that a whole lot of things won't work for him, even if they work for other people, and you won't judge him for not getting fixed by one approach or another.
One thing that might speak to him is "You're just in your forties now. If you keep feeling this bad for the next thirty to fifty years... is that all right?" Hopefully he'll be up for spending one or two years trying to see if he can spare himself that.
I wouldn't make any specific suggestions of things to try, but tell him that you'll support him and help him with anything he needs. (For example, elimination diets are a pain in the neck - it's much easier when you have someone helping you to prepare foods you can eat.) And if he goes to a doctor or takes any kind of step, hug him, thank him for trying, whether it ends up being a helpful step or not. You love him and you thank him for taking care of the person you love.
And talk with him generally about whether he's happy. With his life, his job, his location, his friends...
posted by trig at 10:56 AM on August 3 [11 favorites]
I agree with the suggestion of couple's counseling, since I don't think either of you are exactly faultless here. Yes, it's possible for overweight people to still be fit and active - my mom has always been overweight, but she's aged pretty well - it's also true that even if she never was one for high-intensity activity, she kept moving by gardening, volunteering doing tree plantings/park clean ups, walking, etc. But I think some of these answers are a bit harsh on you - it sounds like the issue isn't just weight-gain, but that your partner used to be engaged in life, and now he just kinda sits around the house as he begins to settle into middle age. I'd find that unattractive too. You're allowed to want to be with someone who is committed to keeping a zest for life. Does your husband have other hobbies you didn't mention, even if they're sedentary? Your question is focused on fitness/activity and I think people here are right to pushback on that, but if the larger issue is that you sorta feel he's lost his ambitions/drive more generally, then that's worth addressing. But like others have suggested, this issue might be depression - if that gets resolved, he may be more likely to be up for joining you on a hike or on a yoga mat.
posted by coffeecat at 11:07 AM on August 3 [5 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 11:07 AM on August 3 [5 favorites]
Nthing suggesting he look into mental health.
Separately, figure out which of your concerns matters the most to you. You’ve got a few separate concerns: not spending time together, not doing activities together, having to listen to his complaints, his future health.
If you care the most about not spending time together, then make a plan to spend eg next Saturday afternoon together. Ask him what he would like to do a few days before. In case he has no idea, it might be good for you to have 2-3 ideas to suggest. Importantly, have at least one of the choices be inactive. Let him choose. If he chooses an active thing but the day comes and he’s not up for it, then you two should do the inactive thing instead.
If you care the most about being active together, then try the same thing, except maybe a week ahead and explicitly tell him you want to do something active, together. Have a few options but be open to doing what he wants instead.
The key to both is he picks what to do, and he picks it for the future. All you do is tell him you miss spending time, or spending active time, with him.
These may not work, but if not you’ll learn by how they fail, and can take next steps accordingly.
If you care more about his health, that’s harder, because all you can do is support actions he takes. Here you’d have to communicate with him, to find out if he wants to improve his fitness/ health level too. If he does, then you ask how you can support him (eg buying healthier snacks, or joining him for another golf session, or helping him find a different doctor for a second opinion). The key here is whatever you do to support should be for a goal he has on his own. If he doesn’t want to improve or shuts the conversation down so you can’t find out, then you have a different problem.
posted by nat at 11:22 AM on August 3 [3 favorites]
Separately, figure out which of your concerns matters the most to you. You’ve got a few separate concerns: not spending time together, not doing activities together, having to listen to his complaints, his future health.
If you care the most about not spending time together, then make a plan to spend eg next Saturday afternoon together. Ask him what he would like to do a few days before. In case he has no idea, it might be good for you to have 2-3 ideas to suggest. Importantly, have at least one of the choices be inactive. Let him choose. If he chooses an active thing but the day comes and he’s not up for it, then you two should do the inactive thing instead.
If you care the most about being active together, then try the same thing, except maybe a week ahead and explicitly tell him you want to do something active, together. Have a few options but be open to doing what he wants instead.
The key to both is he picks what to do, and he picks it for the future. All you do is tell him you miss spending time, or spending active time, with him.
These may not work, but if not you’ll learn by how they fail, and can take next steps accordingly.
If you care more about his health, that’s harder, because all you can do is support actions he takes. Here you’d have to communicate with him, to find out if he wants to improve his fitness/ health level too. If he does, then you ask how you can support him (eg buying healthier snacks, or joining him for another golf session, or helping him find a different doctor for a second opinion). The key here is whatever you do to support should be for a goal he has on his own. If he doesn’t want to improve or shuts the conversation down so you can’t find out, then you have a different problem.
posted by nat at 11:22 AM on August 3 [3 favorites]
I understand what previous commenters mean when they say this is more of a 'you' issue than about him, but at the same time, it's just not as simple as that. And I hope that if he's decided on not taking action on his health complaints, then he's also started to look into long-term care insurance/putting funds away for possible in-home care later in life. 'In sickness and in health' shouldn't include 'I'm going to give up on my health until my condition worsens to the point where my spouse is forced to be my fulltime caretaker'.
I've gone through something similar (spouse prone to complaining with no action) and it is extremely frustrating. And it sounds like this is more about how he wants to live his life – not doing much of anything, by your description – that is not how you want to live life. And this will continue to build resentment on both sides (a big relationship-killer) until you both can come to understand how you each feel, and how you want to move forward.
posted by Molasses808 at 11:30 AM on August 3 [8 favorites]
I've gone through something similar (spouse prone to complaining with no action) and it is extremely frustrating. And it sounds like this is more about how he wants to live his life – not doing much of anything, by your description – that is not how you want to live life. And this will continue to build resentment on both sides (a big relationship-killer) until you both can come to understand how you each feel, and how you want to move forward.
posted by Molasses808 at 11:30 AM on August 3 [8 favorites]
I suggest saying "I am losing attraction to you because you complain constantly, it's really irritating and unpleasant to me. I simply can't listen anymore to you complaining about how you feel like crap all the times. If you do that, I'm going to leave the conversation/room."
Let him be defensive. Hold this particular boundary. You can't make him exercise but you CAN tell him you will walk away when he complains (and do so).
This is probably a bit manipulative, but I would also consider talking positively about some of your male activity mates. Sometimes mild jealousy has positive effects.
I would also stop pressuring him but instead invite him along with you in a neutral way. If he starts complaining or getting defensive, just say "look, if you don't want to come fine, I don't need the whole spiel." Then go out.
Basically, you can invite, but you can't force. You don't need to validate him whining constantly because you're not his mother/therapist.
posted by knobknosher at 11:58 AM on August 3 [6 favorites]
Let him be defensive. Hold this particular boundary. You can't make him exercise but you CAN tell him you will walk away when he complains (and do so).
This is probably a bit manipulative, but I would also consider talking positively about some of your male activity mates. Sometimes mild jealousy has positive effects.
I would also stop pressuring him but instead invite him along with you in a neutral way. If he starts complaining or getting defensive, just say "look, if you don't want to come fine, I don't need the whole spiel." Then go out.
Basically, you can invite, but you can't force. You don't need to validate him whining constantly because you're not his mother/therapist.
posted by knobknosher at 11:58 AM on August 3 [6 favorites]
Also look -- it kinda doesn't matter if he is complaining because he is genuinely in pain/uncomfortable. You have limited time together, and no one wants to hear the same complaints time and time again. Even if they are valid as fuck, it's just not a real conversational topic. It's not a shared activity. It isn't a request for help, clearly. It's just taking up a ton of your time and mental energy for basically no benefit. He can find something else to talk about, I promise, and wanting him to do that doesn't make you mean or a jerk.
posted by knobknosher at 12:12 PM on August 3 [4 favorites]
posted by knobknosher at 12:12 PM on August 3 [4 favorites]
work on accepting the fact that for some people exercise makes them feel crappier rather than better ... People who get a runners' high often find it impossible to believe that there is a large cohort of people who do not feel better when they exercise, they just feel sore and tired.
Can confirm.
The only way I've ever been able to make exercise feel physically good is by doing it stoned; good cannabis plus exercise is unequivocally excellent and recovery is quick. But the only immediate positive result I get from exercising while straight is feeling virtuous afterwards for having done something that's "good for me", and that feeling never lasts anywhere near as long as the pain of recovering from it.
There were a few years in my thirties, after I'd lost a lot of weight and got super fit, during which my usual form of transport was my pushbike and the exercise I did for exercise's sake was swimming; these didn't hurt me as much because they're both low-impact but I was still chronically stiff and sore most days. And I like walking because I enjoy being out and about and looking at and listening to stuff along the way, but it always comes at a cost. Warmup and cooldown stretching helps a bit but not much, though I do it anyway because a bit is better than nothing.
If I push past pain and just keep working then I can get to a point where I feel quite opiated, but I don't like opiates and never have; they just make me groggy and nauseous and heavy exercise is much the same. Not a fan of stimulant highs either. Much more of a psychedelics guy. Give me a handful of gold tops or a tab of acid and I'll happily swim all day and much of the night, but for a few days afterwards I'll be moving very slowly and gingerly and making a lot of Dad noises. In any case I can't be tripping on the regular. It's just not practical. Home-grown edibles for the win.
Running can fuck right off as far as I'm concerned. Just not worth the pain. Sports? Massive waste of time and energy. Not into them.
I spent some of my fifties just floored by actual chronic fatigue, for which none of the medical advice I got was any help whatsoever; eventually fixed it with chili. But I have experienced the effects of exercise as a kind of aversion therapy my whole life and at this point I have no reason to believe that that will ever change. It's just how I work, apparently.
But beyond the aforesaid involuntary Dad noises I do not whinge about any of this to my beloved. Being in pain is quite bad enough without also dumping that pain onto people I love.
posted by flabdablet at 12:12 PM on August 3 [6 favorites]
Can confirm.
The only way I've ever been able to make exercise feel physically good is by doing it stoned; good cannabis plus exercise is unequivocally excellent and recovery is quick. But the only immediate positive result I get from exercising while straight is feeling virtuous afterwards for having done something that's "good for me", and that feeling never lasts anywhere near as long as the pain of recovering from it.
There were a few years in my thirties, after I'd lost a lot of weight and got super fit, during which my usual form of transport was my pushbike and the exercise I did for exercise's sake was swimming; these didn't hurt me as much because they're both low-impact but I was still chronically stiff and sore most days. And I like walking because I enjoy being out and about and looking at and listening to stuff along the way, but it always comes at a cost. Warmup and cooldown stretching helps a bit but not much, though I do it anyway because a bit is better than nothing.
If I push past pain and just keep working then I can get to a point where I feel quite opiated, but I don't like opiates and never have; they just make me groggy and nauseous and heavy exercise is much the same. Not a fan of stimulant highs either. Much more of a psychedelics guy. Give me a handful of gold tops or a tab of acid and I'll happily swim all day and much of the night, but for a few days afterwards I'll be moving very slowly and gingerly and making a lot of Dad noises. In any case I can't be tripping on the regular. It's just not practical. Home-grown edibles for the win.
Running can fuck right off as far as I'm concerned. Just not worth the pain. Sports? Massive waste of time and energy. Not into them.
I spent some of my fifties just floored by actual chronic fatigue, for which none of the medical advice I got was any help whatsoever; eventually fixed it with chili. But I have experienced the effects of exercise as a kind of aversion therapy my whole life and at this point I have no reason to believe that that will ever change. It's just how I work, apparently.
But beyond the aforesaid involuntary Dad noises I do not whinge about any of this to my beloved. Being in pain is quite bad enough without also dumping that pain onto people I love.
posted by flabdablet at 12:12 PM on August 3 [6 favorites]
You don’t have to listen to him complain. It would be kind to be non-judgmental over his lifestyle choices, since those are his choices. It is fair to be concerned about wasted money on equipment, as it’s an improper use of shared resources. Perhaps sell it and you take a vacation on your own.
I agree with the suggestion of therapy for you. This marriage isn’t working for you, you deserve support as you create the life you want for yourself.
posted by shock muppet at 12:13 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]
I agree with the suggestion of therapy for you. This marriage isn’t working for you, you deserve support as you create the life you want for yourself.
posted by shock muppet at 12:13 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]
Gottman Four Horsemen
You have two of them, the other two are under way. I think it's ultimatum time: either he goes to a Gottman workshop with you or you separate. He's choosing to separate already by greatly reducing the quality time you spend with each other, so this just forces him to confront the decision he is already making.
posted by flimflam at 1:35 PM on August 3 [7 favorites]
You have two of them, the other two are under way. I think it's ultimatum time: either he goes to a Gottman workshop with you or you separate. He's choosing to separate already by greatly reducing the quality time you spend with each other, so this just forces him to confront the decision he is already making.
posted by flimflam at 1:35 PM on August 3 [7 favorites]
I think there are three axis here:
1) I feel I know what would help my husband: exercise. And I"m mad he won't do what I want him to do about it.
2) I am tired of listening to complaining
3) (maybe?) I want better communication and collaboration with my husband as I think about aging together
for 1) I suggest you think of a way to both state this honestly and with as little judgment as you can muster - then let it go. This is his body not yours and he clearly isn't open to feedback about it. Your work will be to accept that this is the husband you have and you can share your suggestions (once or twice) but being attached to a specific outcome is not likely to bring joy to either of you.
for 2) I think you can just be honest and direct and again, use I statements and try to avoid judgement. "Husband, I love you and I'm sorry you're in pain right now. To be honest, I want to be here for you, but it's hard for me to listen because I hear it as a lot of complaining. If you want help thinking through some strategies I'm here for you but I need a break from this."
for 3) I think this is where you can use this as a way to get closer instead of more distant. Make a time to talk when you're not distracted or multitasking and share your heart with honestly. Again, make your statements brief, heartfelt, and about YOU not about him.
I agree that couples counseling with both honesty toward him and humility about the ways his choices are ultimately out of your hands might help.
posted by latkes at 1:55 PM on August 3 [4 favorites]
1) I feel I know what would help my husband: exercise. And I"m mad he won't do what I want him to do about it.
2) I am tired of listening to complaining
3) (maybe?) I want better communication and collaboration with my husband as I think about aging together
for 1) I suggest you think of a way to both state this honestly and with as little judgment as you can muster - then let it go. This is his body not yours and he clearly isn't open to feedback about it. Your work will be to accept that this is the husband you have and you can share your suggestions (once or twice) but being attached to a specific outcome is not likely to bring joy to either of you.
for 2) I think you can just be honest and direct and again, use I statements and try to avoid judgement. "Husband, I love you and I'm sorry you're in pain right now. To be honest, I want to be here for you, but it's hard for me to listen because I hear it as a lot of complaining. If you want help thinking through some strategies I'm here for you but I need a break from this."
for 3) I think this is where you can use this as a way to get closer instead of more distant. Make a time to talk when you're not distracted or multitasking and share your heart with honestly. Again, make your statements brief, heartfelt, and about YOU not about him.
I agree that couples counseling with both honesty toward him and humility about the ways his choices are ultimately out of your hands might help.
posted by latkes at 1:55 PM on August 3 [4 favorites]
How about this
H: I feel bloated/sick/old
Me: yeah you’ve said that a lot recently. What are you going to do about that?
H: oh I can’t do anything for “Reasons”!
Me: oh, that’s too bad (leaves room to stop conversation / new topic)
The “you’ve said that a lot recently” is the signal that this is a repeated thing that he keeps bringing up. Maybe he legitimately doesn’t know how often he talks about this. If he is a stream of consciousness kind of talker he is just talking about it because it is happening to him but you do work every time he talks about it so you may be more aware of it.
No, this is not the nurturing approach. This is the “I’m tired of having this stupid conversation and it has to stop now” approach. It’s not suitable for handling people who are depressed, and it won’t improve the relationship. It makes it uncomfortable for him to whine to you. Which might make him do it less.
You are being SUPER considerate of his feelings and he is not being considerate of yours.
I will say that if he does have any kind of solution then you can jump in with offers of help and support.
posted by Vatnesine at 1:57 PM on August 3 [8 favorites]
H: I feel bloated/sick/old
Me: yeah you’ve said that a lot recently. What are you going to do about that?
H: oh I can’t do anything for “Reasons”!
Me: oh, that’s too bad (leaves room to stop conversation / new topic)
The “you’ve said that a lot recently” is the signal that this is a repeated thing that he keeps bringing up. Maybe he legitimately doesn’t know how often he talks about this. If he is a stream of consciousness kind of talker he is just talking about it because it is happening to him but you do work every time he talks about it so you may be more aware of it.
No, this is not the nurturing approach. This is the “I’m tired of having this stupid conversation and it has to stop now” approach. It’s not suitable for handling people who are depressed, and it won’t improve the relationship. It makes it uncomfortable for him to whine to you. Which might make him do it less.
You are being SUPER considerate of his feelings and he is not being considerate of yours.
I will say that if he does have any kind of solution then you can jump in with offers of help and support.
posted by Vatnesine at 1:57 PM on August 3 [8 favorites]
The fact that the current dynamic with your husband is having a negative impact on your attraction to him and is probably leading to a lot of other feelings that are probably not that easy to bury or hide and are maybe even apparent already to him - contempt and resentment. That's really what you need to deal with and I would nth the suggestions that you work on these issues with a counselor.
The fitness and exercise issue is a tangled knot and I'm not sure what your expectations are. Exercise and movement is great for lots of reasons, but it doesn't always lead to ripped abs and a lean body. Frankly that shouldn't be the primary goal of exercise. So if you're expecting that if he just exercised, he'd "look better/skinnier/hotter," then you're setting yourself up from disappointment and not making the ask for the right reasons.
I think you really need to frame your discussions about wanting to have a stronger connection with your husband. His constant complaining is damaging your connection. He can either stop complaining or do something to address the root cause of those complaints (which may or may involve exercise or weight loss as part of the solution)? That's on him to figure out, but I think it's reasonable of you to ask him to figure it out.
You also feel like finding a shared activity would strengthen your connection. That's a good idea, but it sounds like you have different ideas of what that shared activity might be. Do you ever go golfing with him? Maybe if you engaged in his preferred activity, he might be more willing to engage in one of your preferred activities. I think you're also going to have to think of some non-exercise/super physically active activities that you could also share. Walking around a museum, checking out the local farmer's market, going for a picnic may not be a strenuous hike up a mountain, but there will still be activity involved.
How you want to age together is also important and what the expectations will be. Women often end up in care giving roles in middle age and beyond to the detriment of their own needs and even financial health. It's totally reasonable for you to not want to spend your later years providing full time care for someone who has become housebound due to their own choices. But honestly you could also end up needing full time care, there's no telling what the future will bring.
I think your husband has some serious issue to address, but I also think you really need to unpack your expectations a bit more to understand what is reasonable, what societal baggage you may be carrying into the conversation, and how you may be unknowingly communicating contempt rather that care when you discuss these issues.
posted by brookeb at 2:24 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]
The fitness and exercise issue is a tangled knot and I'm not sure what your expectations are. Exercise and movement is great for lots of reasons, but it doesn't always lead to ripped abs and a lean body. Frankly that shouldn't be the primary goal of exercise. So if you're expecting that if he just exercised, he'd "look better/skinnier/hotter," then you're setting yourself up from disappointment and not making the ask for the right reasons.
I think you really need to frame your discussions about wanting to have a stronger connection with your husband. His constant complaining is damaging your connection. He can either stop complaining or do something to address the root cause of those complaints (which may or may involve exercise or weight loss as part of the solution)? That's on him to figure out, but I think it's reasonable of you to ask him to figure it out.
You also feel like finding a shared activity would strengthen your connection. That's a good idea, but it sounds like you have different ideas of what that shared activity might be. Do you ever go golfing with him? Maybe if you engaged in his preferred activity, he might be more willing to engage in one of your preferred activities. I think you're also going to have to think of some non-exercise/super physically active activities that you could also share. Walking around a museum, checking out the local farmer's market, going for a picnic may not be a strenuous hike up a mountain, but there will still be activity involved.
How you want to age together is also important and what the expectations will be. Women often end up in care giving roles in middle age and beyond to the detriment of their own needs and even financial health. It's totally reasonable for you to not want to spend your later years providing full time care for someone who has become housebound due to their own choices. But honestly you could also end up needing full time care, there's no telling what the future will bring.
I think your husband has some serious issue to address, but I also think you really need to unpack your expectations a bit more to understand what is reasonable, what societal baggage you may be carrying into the conversation, and how you may be unknowingly communicating contempt rather that care when you discuss these issues.
posted by brookeb at 2:24 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]
A lot of well meaning advice here is centered around wondering if your husband is depressed and telling you to tell him to look into his mental health. I think that is the wrong way to go, the wrong way for you to even think. What you need to do is be LESS involved with him and his health issues, not more. Why? Because your being involved in his health issues is bringing you closer to ending the relationship.
So get boundaries and take your distance. When he starts complaining about his health, leave the room, change the subject, treat yourself to a lovely walk or a trip to the museum, choose that moment to call up a friend for a nice chat, etc. You don't have to be unkind or angry about it. You can say "Aww, hope you feel better honey," and then go off to do your thing. But do go off and do your thing. That is the important bit.
Ultimately, addressing his health issues is under HIS control, not yours. He may choose not to ever do it, and he may end up being a horrible partner or worse, a huge burden on you as you both get older
But the thing is, addressing your unhappiness in this relationship is under YOUR control, not his. You can stop participating in his whine sessions. You can quit the relationship on the basis that he is a shitty partner who asks for too much emotional and physical caregiving from you for totally preventable reasons, and gives too little of the same to you (or puts himself in the position of being able to give too little, through his own inaction). That's on you.
Stop thinking about what he needs and what he should be doing. Stay in your lane, control your own actions.
posted by MiraK at 2:44 PM on August 3 [9 favorites]
So get boundaries and take your distance. When he starts complaining about his health, leave the room, change the subject, treat yourself to a lovely walk or a trip to the museum, choose that moment to call up a friend for a nice chat, etc. You don't have to be unkind or angry about it. You can say "Aww, hope you feel better honey," and then go off to do your thing. But do go off and do your thing. That is the important bit.
Ultimately, addressing his health issues is under HIS control, not yours. He may choose not to ever do it, and he may end up being a horrible partner or worse, a huge burden on you as you both get older
But the thing is, addressing your unhappiness in this relationship is under YOUR control, not his. You can stop participating in his whine sessions. You can quit the relationship on the basis that he is a shitty partner who asks for too much emotional and physical caregiving from you for totally preventable reasons, and gives too little of the same to you (or puts himself in the position of being able to give too little, through his own inaction). That's on you.
Stop thinking about what he needs and what he should be doing. Stay in your lane, control your own actions.
posted by MiraK at 2:44 PM on August 3 [9 favorites]
You got lots of excellent advice here already, so I will throw out two things. One -- if you do choose to be involved in the emotional labor of helping your husband manage his medical stuff, it may be worthwhile for him to go to a good functional medicine doctor (by that I mean an MD or DO who takes a holistic approach).
Two -- almost none of the comments focused on the issue of you being concerned about aging with a person who is managing his life, health, and body the way your husband does. I just want to validate that it makes total sense to worry about it. Although the circumstances and specifics were different, on a big picture level what finally pushed me to divorce my ex-husband was the realization that I did not want to grow old with him -- in the literal sense. I did not want to go through the aging process with him, to be each other's support system when our bodies started to fail. Because of a serious illness, I got a glimpse of what it would be like, and I didn't want it. So if in untangling this for yourself you figure out that you don't want him as your partner in aging, it's okay.
posted by virve at 4:58 PM on August 3 [9 favorites]
Two -- almost none of the comments focused on the issue of you being concerned about aging with a person who is managing his life, health, and body the way your husband does. I just want to validate that it makes total sense to worry about it. Although the circumstances and specifics were different, on a big picture level what finally pushed me to divorce my ex-husband was the realization that I did not want to grow old with him -- in the literal sense. I did not want to go through the aging process with him, to be each other's support system when our bodies started to fail. Because of a serious illness, I got a glimpse of what it would be like, and I didn't want it. So if in untangling this for yourself you figure out that you don't want him as your partner in aging, it's okay.
posted by virve at 4:58 PM on August 3 [9 favorites]
Every time your husband complains, just say, oh that’s too bad, I hope you find a solution for that/you should really do something about that! And then go off for a walk or whatever. You can empathise without taking on the burden or indulging him in a whinefest.
Make it clear it’s his problem to solve or not but you don’t exist as his emotional dumping ground.
If he gets upset that you’re not indulging him now, say that you’ve gone over his issues multiple times but he refuses to take any action himself so there’s nothing you can do. And until he’s prepared to take charge of his own health, you don’t really want to hear about it anymore.
Your husband keeps doing it because you keep letting him. Stop it. And yes, it may be mental health issues, it may be actual physical issues which is all very tough but it’s up to him to own it and do something about it.
posted by Jubey at 7:27 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]
Make it clear it’s his problem to solve or not but you don’t exist as his emotional dumping ground.
If he gets upset that you’re not indulging him now, say that you’ve gone over his issues multiple times but he refuses to take any action himself so there’s nothing you can do. And until he’s prepared to take charge of his own health, you don’t really want to hear about it anymore.
Your husband keeps doing it because you keep letting him. Stop it. And yes, it may be mental health issues, it may be actual physical issues which is all very tough but it’s up to him to own it and do something about it.
posted by Jubey at 7:27 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]
As a chronically ill, disabled person who is 95% aches and pains, what I want to add to the conversation is that there is a big difference between 1) one's health, 2) one's attitude towards one's health.
Re 1), one's health. Ill health, loss of ability, and general ageing is part of everyone's life eventually, and on that front I think the kindest thing you can do (for your partner, but more importantly for yourself) is to let go of the idea that you can truly do anything about his health.
You do not have the responsibility to, and you do not have the ability to, and trying to is a recipe for anxiety, frustration, and micromanagement, on your end. In a fundamental way, there is a point where a person also cannot do anything about their own health — anyone can be as proactive and determined as possible, and still experience injury and disease.
Re 2), one's attitude towards one's health. This is a totally different beast, and where, perhaps, the root of the problem, and of your frustration, lies.
Like your husband, I have various aches, pains, and ailments. I do complain a bit when it all gets to be too much — everyone needs to, a bit! — but overall I am responsible for managing my own emotions about my health. I do not offload them onto my partner and expect him to manage my distress about it. If that's what you feel like your husband is doing to you — catastrophizing, expecting you to "fix it," or venting his distress onto to you so that he doesn't have to do the work of learning to manage it on his own — that is not okay and it's fair to draw a boundary. Lots of great suggestions here about how to do that.
"Managing emotions" can look like many things, from putting in the emotional work re: one's anxieties and fears about ageing, trying a new doctor or physiotherapist, researching the issues you're having, being open to trying new solutions even though old ones have failed, examining (maybe with a friend, therapist, or physiotherapist) psychological barriers to fitness in a non-judgmental, non-self-blaming way & finding alternate ways of thinking about it.
Important note: at the end of this long road, you are not necessarily rewarded with "and now I can do x, y, and z and I'm way more fit." It's not about achieving the end goal and getting what you want; it's about building resilience so that you can live a full life regardless of the state of your health. Also, like folks have noted, there is ableism and lack of understanding everywhere in medicine — life is complicated, and full of barriers, and it's not surprising if he comes up against some of these barriers.
The other part of all this is facing the facts. I hear you on your fear of, what will happen in the future? Thanks to sexist gender roles the female partner often ends up in a caretaking role, so his problems might become your problems to, physically, deal with. That would not be fair. My partner can expect to that, in growing old with me — a disabled person — we will face more challenges than an able-bodied couple. Because he's chosen to be with me, it's kind of his problem, too. So it's my responsibility to face the facts with him, discuss what might reasonably happen to me if the trajectory of my health continues without any improvement, and, together, figure out plans/solutions for how we are going to face those things as they come up.
tldr; it is, ultimately, okay for someone to be overweight, to not enjoy exercise, to not have the ability to physically do certain things, to lose physical fitness. However, it is NOT okay for someone to be miserable about it all the time, and to make that your problem, both emotionally and logistically.
posted by fire, water, earth, air at 8:13 PM on August 3 [11 favorites]
Re 1), one's health. Ill health, loss of ability, and general ageing is part of everyone's life eventually, and on that front I think the kindest thing you can do (for your partner, but more importantly for yourself) is to let go of the idea that you can truly do anything about his health.
You do not have the responsibility to, and you do not have the ability to, and trying to is a recipe for anxiety, frustration, and micromanagement, on your end. In a fundamental way, there is a point where a person also cannot do anything about their own health — anyone can be as proactive and determined as possible, and still experience injury and disease.
Re 2), one's attitude towards one's health. This is a totally different beast, and where, perhaps, the root of the problem, and of your frustration, lies.
Like your husband, I have various aches, pains, and ailments. I do complain a bit when it all gets to be too much — everyone needs to, a bit! — but overall I am responsible for managing my own emotions about my health. I do not offload them onto my partner and expect him to manage my distress about it. If that's what you feel like your husband is doing to you — catastrophizing, expecting you to "fix it," or venting his distress onto to you so that he doesn't have to do the work of learning to manage it on his own — that is not okay and it's fair to draw a boundary. Lots of great suggestions here about how to do that.
"Managing emotions" can look like many things, from putting in the emotional work re: one's anxieties and fears about ageing, trying a new doctor or physiotherapist, researching the issues you're having, being open to trying new solutions even though old ones have failed, examining (maybe with a friend, therapist, or physiotherapist) psychological barriers to fitness in a non-judgmental, non-self-blaming way & finding alternate ways of thinking about it.
Important note: at the end of this long road, you are not necessarily rewarded with "and now I can do x, y, and z and I'm way more fit." It's not about achieving the end goal and getting what you want; it's about building resilience so that you can live a full life regardless of the state of your health. Also, like folks have noted, there is ableism and lack of understanding everywhere in medicine — life is complicated, and full of barriers, and it's not surprising if he comes up against some of these barriers.
The other part of all this is facing the facts. I hear you on your fear of, what will happen in the future? Thanks to sexist gender roles the female partner often ends up in a caretaking role, so his problems might become your problems to, physically, deal with. That would not be fair. My partner can expect to that, in growing old with me — a disabled person — we will face more challenges than an able-bodied couple. Because he's chosen to be with me, it's kind of his problem, too. So it's my responsibility to face the facts with him, discuss what might reasonably happen to me if the trajectory of my health continues without any improvement, and, together, figure out plans/solutions for how we are going to face those things as they come up.
tldr; it is, ultimately, okay for someone to be overweight, to not enjoy exercise, to not have the ability to physically do certain things, to lose physical fitness. However, it is NOT okay for someone to be miserable about it all the time, and to make that your problem, both emotionally and logistically.
posted by fire, water, earth, air at 8:13 PM on August 3 [11 favorites]
I don’t blame you for being distressed. but you are at the same time complaining that he complains about trifles even though his doctors affirm there is nothing really wrong with him, and catastrophizing about your shared future because you’re sure there’s soon going to be something really wrong with him. do you think there is something really wrong with him, or not?
you need to pick an issue. not for strategy, but to clarify to yourself what the real problem is. is it his probable future health, or his constant complaining, or his weight and looks, or his non-sporty lifestyle that you can’t live with? no fair saying “all of them,” if it was really all of it unendurable you’d leave instead of looking for advice. you may object to any of these things and you may express it, but it isn’t fair to hide one concern behind another when some of them are contradictory. being sad that you are growing apart and he is boring is not the same as being terrified that he will die young.
and if he ever does restart regular exercise he is going to have so many more daily aches and pains to complain of, so be ready.
I think it is fair and often necessary to be done with someone when you don’t respect them anymore, or even to stage an intervention if you have real doctor-validated grounds for fear of premature widowhood. but I don’t think it is fair to belittle his physical pains & shut down his moaning as long as you are choosing to be with him. unless he is so loud about it that it crowds out all space for your own complaining, which you are entitled to just as he is.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:50 PM on August 3 [6 favorites]
you need to pick an issue. not for strategy, but to clarify to yourself what the real problem is. is it his probable future health, or his constant complaining, or his weight and looks, or his non-sporty lifestyle that you can’t live with? no fair saying “all of them,” if it was really all of it unendurable you’d leave instead of looking for advice. you may object to any of these things and you may express it, but it isn’t fair to hide one concern behind another when some of them are contradictory. being sad that you are growing apart and he is boring is not the same as being terrified that he will die young.
and if he ever does restart regular exercise he is going to have so many more daily aches and pains to complain of, so be ready.
I think it is fair and often necessary to be done with someone when you don’t respect them anymore, or even to stage an intervention if you have real doctor-validated grounds for fear of premature widowhood. but I don’t think it is fair to belittle his physical pains & shut down his moaning as long as you are choosing to be with him. unless he is so loud about it that it crowds out all space for your own complaining, which you are entitled to just as he is.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:50 PM on August 3 [6 favorites]
You have limited time together, and no one wants to hear the same complaints time and time again.
So I really want to push back on this.
This kind of sounds a lot like my partner, but I just…don’t mind? This is just kind of what men are like when they hit their forties in my experience? Like, they are still in that transitional phase where they haven’t yet adjusted to the fact that their metabolism will no longer let them eat a horse and slack a lot and then haphazardly do some pickup sports and still be able to lift a sack of potatoes over their head - ie, they’re not 20. And they’re kind of annoyed that they’re not 20 - that the aches and pains they’re having isn’t the result of some giant medical condition, but the natural result of aging, and now they have to change things in really annoying and unpleasant ways. For my guy he’s currently ignoring his knee.
But like, the difference is I fundamentally *love* him, and being a gym bunny has never been a big part of our life together, so I kind of just sigh a little when I hear totally fixable complaints, gently remind him that these are aging things and he could take steps to fix them, and then settle in on the couch and love him. I take better care of my health than he does, but I don’t take it as a personal affront that he doesn’t, and I still find him attractive, lack of six pack and all.
You don’t, it seems, and I think it might be worth interrogating why not? And I wonder how much of it is the frustration that the poor health might lead to you being alone or the sole caretaker of him in poor health in his sixties or seventies. You say that you don’t have kids, but I wonder if there are ways to either revisit that or revisit the idea of you being sole caretaker if that’s what you fear.
posted by corb at 1:55 AM on August 4 [7 favorites]
So I really want to push back on this.
This kind of sounds a lot like my partner, but I just…don’t mind? This is just kind of what men are like when they hit their forties in my experience? Like, they are still in that transitional phase where they haven’t yet adjusted to the fact that their metabolism will no longer let them eat a horse and slack a lot and then haphazardly do some pickup sports and still be able to lift a sack of potatoes over their head - ie, they’re not 20. And they’re kind of annoyed that they’re not 20 - that the aches and pains they’re having isn’t the result of some giant medical condition, but the natural result of aging, and now they have to change things in really annoying and unpleasant ways. For my guy he’s currently ignoring his knee.
But like, the difference is I fundamentally *love* him, and being a gym bunny has never been a big part of our life together, so I kind of just sigh a little when I hear totally fixable complaints, gently remind him that these are aging things and he could take steps to fix them, and then settle in on the couch and love him. I take better care of my health than he does, but I don’t take it as a personal affront that he doesn’t, and I still find him attractive, lack of six pack and all.
You don’t, it seems, and I think it might be worth interrogating why not? And I wonder how much of it is the frustration that the poor health might lead to you being alone or the sole caretaker of him in poor health in his sixties or seventies. You say that you don’t have kids, but I wonder if there are ways to either revisit that or revisit the idea of you being sole caretaker if that’s what you fear.
posted by corb at 1:55 AM on August 4 [7 favorites]
I’m 53 and my husband is 57 and I think we could each have written this post in our 40s, just at different points. The main difference I think - and I’m not saying this to judge you but to suggest this might be where you want to concentrate efforts - would be the “I didn’t sign up for this” line. We have generally seen each other’s journeys, even the dark parts, as something we did sign up for. My last round of non-fitness was recent, after Covid left me with exercise induced tachycardia and it really sucked; I just am back to things fully the last 6 months or so. There was definitely a period of sitting in the couch whining in there, longer than it technically had to go. Meanwhile my husband took a promotion that is sucking the life out of him (hopefully temporarily) and so he is not as active.
My approach would be first to keep doing what you’re doing on the exercise front - go with friends, occasionally encourage. Also…do you golf? Because it could go both ways there if doing things together is your goal.
Second, this honestly is the place I think a trip together somewhere (with Pilates and walks and a golf course) might help to give you both a chance to reconnect. And on that trip, after golfing together, I’d bring up aging and your fears. Calmly and not in a shaming way. Because you have a lot of fears, watching others age badly…I do too, my mother is one of those people who never felt good after exercise and it has impacted her health. But do you have a shared vision? I think it would be good to set aside some time for you two as a couple to kind of…get in the same page.
I wouldn’t necessarily talk about his health. I’d talk about what you want as the end goal. First, the present. You want to connect - maybe that’s one golf game, one of your things, and a movie night in the couch a week. Maybe it’s a new shared project or a hobby in the middle like going for photography walks or biking to craft breweries.
Also, in your 40s is a great time to look at how other people are aging and create…I don’t know how to put this…a retirement mood board (mentally.) I’d look at positive and negative examples of couples around you (kindly) and start talking about those things. It might drown out the complaining. Because…your husband sounds like he is in the classic midlife low point. And frankly…so do you a bit, it’s just your point of complaint is him (I’m not saying you complain all the time, but it sounds like it’s on your mind a lot.) A roadmap out might help.
If you can’t picture these conversations then yeah…counselling and maybe this marriage is ending.
My husband and I have plans for retirement that require health - we want to run a retreat centre for both writers and for meditation (hers and his events :)) that also has room for a few rescue dogs. This vision gets us in for checkups etc., and we are saving funds for a property. it may never happen. But here we are acting that way..sometimes at least..
posted by warriorqueen at 3:47 AM on August 4 [8 favorites]
My approach would be first to keep doing what you’re doing on the exercise front - go with friends, occasionally encourage. Also…do you golf? Because it could go both ways there if doing things together is your goal.
Second, this honestly is the place I think a trip together somewhere (with Pilates and walks and a golf course) might help to give you both a chance to reconnect. And on that trip, after golfing together, I’d bring up aging and your fears. Calmly and not in a shaming way. Because you have a lot of fears, watching others age badly…I do too, my mother is one of those people who never felt good after exercise and it has impacted her health. But do you have a shared vision? I think it would be good to set aside some time for you two as a couple to kind of…get in the same page.
I wouldn’t necessarily talk about his health. I’d talk about what you want as the end goal. First, the present. You want to connect - maybe that’s one golf game, one of your things, and a movie night in the couch a week. Maybe it’s a new shared project or a hobby in the middle like going for photography walks or biking to craft breweries.
Also, in your 40s is a great time to look at how other people are aging and create…I don’t know how to put this…a retirement mood board (mentally.) I’d look at positive and negative examples of couples around you (kindly) and start talking about those things. It might drown out the complaining. Because…your husband sounds like he is in the classic midlife low point. And frankly…so do you a bit, it’s just your point of complaint is him (I’m not saying you complain all the time, but it sounds like it’s on your mind a lot.) A roadmap out might help.
If you can’t picture these conversations then yeah…counselling and maybe this marriage is ending.
My husband and I have plans for retirement that require health - we want to run a retreat centre for both writers and for meditation (hers and his events :)) that also has room for a few rescue dogs. This vision gets us in for checkups etc., and we are saving funds for a property. it may never happen. But here we are acting that way..sometimes at least..
posted by warriorqueen at 3:47 AM on August 4 [8 favorites]
Unhappiness is contagious. It's bad for our mental health to spend lots of time with people who are unhappy or angry, because it makes it harder for us to return to our own happy set point, and can reset us to being chronically resentful, or sad, or scared, or angry. It sounds like this is what is happening to you. You are an empathetic person and you are spending lots of time with someone who is frequently very unhappy. It's making you unhappy.
I think you can do two things about this to set the boundaries you need. One is to check if you are triggering his complaints by the actions you are taking. You want to spend positive time with him, so you may be inviting him to come join you on a stroll (or a 2K sprint) just as he has settled down on the couch with the chips to watch Game of Thrones, and inevitably you get an explanation that he hurts too much and is too tired to join you. If your invitations and bids for closeness and quality time together are triggering rejection and a description of the misery he is in, you feel bad for being rejected in favour of chips and Game of Thrones, and you feel bad that your nearest and dearest feels bad, and you feel bad that your nearest and dearest won't join you doing something good for him, which is therefore good for both of you.
Maybe you can avoid triggering the complaints and the rejection by never inviting him to do active things with you? It may well be that he has shut down and is a lump on a bump now, and even if you asked him to do things that would be easy on his body, you'd get the rejections, so you can't ask him to do anything at all with you at all without getting the pain of him not wanting your company anymore. But maybe he simply stopped being able to push himself to keep up, and the only reason he bought all that expensive exercise equipment because he still wants to be with you, and he bought it to please you. So it's worth you looking for things that you can do with him that you would enjoy, that do not put his body through stress. But it sounds like it's not worth you ever asking him to run again, if every time you ask him he not only says no, but goes into a long list of how much discomfort he is in.
The other thing you can do, which is fair and reasonable, is to set boundaries on your listening to him complain. Basically, stop asking the questions which trigger complaints "How are you doing?' or "How was work?" and you let him know that hearing complaints and negative talk is bad for your mental health, so you'd like to spend time with him where both of you commit to not complaining or doom spiraling or being negative.
Some people feel very strongly that not being allowed to talk about their negative feelings is being silenced, and that they have a right to do so. Toxic positivity is a thing and it's very bad for us. Yet you are very much allowed to set boundaries and you need to set boundaries. It's very reasonable for you to cut him off and say, "I am starting to get upset, so we have to stop now." I think you are not going to be in the wrong if you set some boundaries on the time you are willing to spend listening to him complain. But you're going to want to tell him so, because if you simply walk out every time he starts to talk about his back pain and his fatigue, he's going to take that as an unkind rejection. It could even cause him to redouble his bids for attention, so he starts following you around with a monologue about how he feels, trying to get some sympathy. You do have to tell him that you need to be hearing it a LOT less.
Does he have anything else he can talk about, that you have a common interest in? That's what you need to discover. Can you have positive interactions? What kind of positive interactions can you have? If he now has chronic ill health, you might be able to still have a good and mutually affectionate and supportive relationship with each other if you both compartmentalize, where he never talks about the shows he watches on TV, which you despise, and you never talk about your sports, which make him feel left out and inadequate, but you have some great hours cooking together and talking about how to get the vote out. Clearly you can't build your relationship together on a mutual love of being active together. But can you find something else to share?
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:11 AM on August 4 [3 favorites]
I think you can do two things about this to set the boundaries you need. One is to check if you are triggering his complaints by the actions you are taking. You want to spend positive time with him, so you may be inviting him to come join you on a stroll (or a 2K sprint) just as he has settled down on the couch with the chips to watch Game of Thrones, and inevitably you get an explanation that he hurts too much and is too tired to join you. If your invitations and bids for closeness and quality time together are triggering rejection and a description of the misery he is in, you feel bad for being rejected in favour of chips and Game of Thrones, and you feel bad that your nearest and dearest feels bad, and you feel bad that your nearest and dearest won't join you doing something good for him, which is therefore good for both of you.
Maybe you can avoid triggering the complaints and the rejection by never inviting him to do active things with you? It may well be that he has shut down and is a lump on a bump now, and even if you asked him to do things that would be easy on his body, you'd get the rejections, so you can't ask him to do anything at all with you at all without getting the pain of him not wanting your company anymore. But maybe he simply stopped being able to push himself to keep up, and the only reason he bought all that expensive exercise equipment because he still wants to be with you, and he bought it to please you. So it's worth you looking for things that you can do with him that you would enjoy, that do not put his body through stress. But it sounds like it's not worth you ever asking him to run again, if every time you ask him he not only says no, but goes into a long list of how much discomfort he is in.
The other thing you can do, which is fair and reasonable, is to set boundaries on your listening to him complain. Basically, stop asking the questions which trigger complaints "How are you doing?' or "How was work?" and you let him know that hearing complaints and negative talk is bad for your mental health, so you'd like to spend time with him where both of you commit to not complaining or doom spiraling or being negative.
Some people feel very strongly that not being allowed to talk about their negative feelings is being silenced, and that they have a right to do so. Toxic positivity is a thing and it's very bad for us. Yet you are very much allowed to set boundaries and you need to set boundaries. It's very reasonable for you to cut him off and say, "I am starting to get upset, so we have to stop now." I think you are not going to be in the wrong if you set some boundaries on the time you are willing to spend listening to him complain. But you're going to want to tell him so, because if you simply walk out every time he starts to talk about his back pain and his fatigue, he's going to take that as an unkind rejection. It could even cause him to redouble his bids for attention, so he starts following you around with a monologue about how he feels, trying to get some sympathy. You do have to tell him that you need to be hearing it a LOT less.
Does he have anything else he can talk about, that you have a common interest in? That's what you need to discover. Can you have positive interactions? What kind of positive interactions can you have? If he now has chronic ill health, you might be able to still have a good and mutually affectionate and supportive relationship with each other if you both compartmentalize, where he never talks about the shows he watches on TV, which you despise, and you never talk about your sports, which make him feel left out and inadequate, but you have some great hours cooking together and talking about how to get the vote out. Clearly you can't build your relationship together on a mutual love of being active together. But can you find something else to share?
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:11 AM on August 4 [3 favorites]
My partner is in his early 70s and is very active and generally healthy except he has a ton of joint pains, and muscle pain after poorly sleeping, which is almost every night. He complains A LOT. Yet he continues to exert himself daily in activities, which makes his pain worse. This is frustrating for me because I believe he should recuperate more, and then he wouldn’t complain so much. But I have given up on thinking that I think I know what is best for him and focus on myself. So what if he won’t do what I think he should, and that he doesn’t have the right to complain to me since he won’t take my advice. I’m just glad he’s alive to complain. Being physically fit doesn’t negate someone’s desire to complain, so your partner may not be cured of complaining if he gets active again. And reminding someone of how fit, healthy, and happy they used to be can make them feel so much worse, not motivated (I don’t know that you’re doing this, but be mindful if you are.). Your heart is in the right place, you want him to be fit and active again because that could make him happy again. Find things that you enjoy doing with him and the current state he’s in, and if it’s complaining becomes too much for you, go find something to keep you busy that can help you maintain a peaceful frame of mind.Giving him that space may give him unstressed time to figure out what he wants to do next.
posted by waving at 5:28 AM on August 4 [1 favorite]
posted by waving at 5:28 AM on August 4 [1 favorite]
Am I centering myself too much here?
No.
Do I need to be kinder to him?
No.
How do I be kind without enabling?
Being kind isn't the same as being nice. You can't force him to stop being a couch potato, even though it's in his own best interests.
But you need to be honest about what the consequences are to your relationship. If you grit your teeth and put up with it until you finally snap, you're not being kind up to that point, even though you've been nice up to that point. Be honest with him.
You don't way what the rest of your relationship is like, but if this has reached the level where the relationship is worse for you than being single would be, then end the relationship.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:31 AM on August 4 [6 favorites]
No.
Do I need to be kinder to him?
No.
How do I be kind without enabling?
Being kind isn't the same as being nice. You can't force him to stop being a couch potato, even though it's in his own best interests.
But you need to be honest about what the consequences are to your relationship. If you grit your teeth and put up with it until you finally snap, you're not being kind up to that point, even though you've been nice up to that point. Be honest with him.
You don't way what the rest of your relationship is like, but if this has reached the level where the relationship is worse for you than being single would be, then end the relationship.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:31 AM on August 4 [6 favorites]
He is very defensive when it comes to his health.
He knows this is an issue. I'm glad that I spent time in my twenties and thirties building strength, flexibility and good HR recovery, but future me needs to keep that up. Future me will be grateful, but I can't know it now.
I hear all your concerns. How big is his life insurance policy, and how does he react when you tell him you've upped the payout?
posted by k3ninho at 10:34 AM on August 4
He knows this is an issue. I'm glad that I spent time in my twenties and thirties building strength, flexibility and good HR recovery, but future me needs to keep that up. Future me will be grateful, but I can't know it now.
I hear all your concerns. How big is his life insurance policy, and how does he react when you tell him you've upped the payout?
posted by k3ninho at 10:34 AM on August 4
It doesn't sound like you like him, love him, or are attracted to him. That could be because you don't/aren't any more, or because those positive feelings are still under there somewhere, but they're being swamped by your aggravation, fears, and the like. Do you know which is the case?
If it's the former, there's probably nothing better that you can do than divorce.
If it's the latter, I agree that individual and/or couples therapy is in order, and it sounds pretty urgent. In that case, how about this as a thought experiment... What if his behaviors were exactly the same -- he complained just as much, exercised just as little etc. -- but it was because of something utterly blameless? E.g., if he had been in a disabling accident, or if he had long COVID or another diagnosed, chronic condition? When you imagine that, and recall the promise you made about "in sickness and in health," without asterisks and small print, then which aspects of the negatives you're feeling would fall away, and which would still be significant problems you'd have to figure out a way to address? While respecting what's possible for him?
If your love and affection and attraction are still there underneath it all, then try to find your way to considering him more blameless, to judging him less harshly, to accepting that what you're seeing is what he can do right now, for whatever reasons. And from that place, ask for the specific, attainable changes you need.
posted by daisyace at 10:44 AM on August 4 [3 favorites]
If it's the former, there's probably nothing better that you can do than divorce.
If it's the latter, I agree that individual and/or couples therapy is in order, and it sounds pretty urgent. In that case, how about this as a thought experiment... What if his behaviors were exactly the same -- he complained just as much, exercised just as little etc. -- but it was because of something utterly blameless? E.g., if he had been in a disabling accident, or if he had long COVID or another diagnosed, chronic condition? When you imagine that, and recall the promise you made about "in sickness and in health," without asterisks and small print, then which aspects of the negatives you're feeling would fall away, and which would still be significant problems you'd have to figure out a way to address? While respecting what's possible for him?
If your love and affection and attraction are still there underneath it all, then try to find your way to considering him more blameless, to judging him less harshly, to accepting that what you're seeing is what he can do right now, for whatever reasons. And from that place, ask for the specific, attainable changes you need.
posted by daisyace at 10:44 AM on August 4 [3 favorites]
of course, I hate to think of what will happen ten, twenty years down the road. His father and brother are both in horrible health. I'm also cognizant of the fact that maybe he complains so much because he feels unseen and unheard. Am I centering myself too much here?
What do you expect to happen when you tell him you're terrified of ageing badly and being infirm as the years add up?
Starting a new habit needs a script for the trigger, the old behaviour you want to avoid, the new behaviour you choose instead and the reason you want this behaviour (and will reward yourself for success). What might a new script look like at that trigger point of his aches and pains making him moan and you worried for his future suffering look like?
posted by k3ninho at 11:23 AM on August 4
What do you expect to happen when you tell him you're terrified of ageing badly and being infirm as the years add up?
Starting a new habit needs a script for the trigger, the old behaviour you want to avoid, the new behaviour you choose instead and the reason you want this behaviour (and will reward yourself for success). What might a new script look like at that trigger point of his aches and pains making him moan and you worried for his future suffering look like?
posted by k3ninho at 11:23 AM on August 4
This is minor and could go either way for either of you… there’s a room in your house with nice exercise equipment? Would you like using it?
posted by clew at 7:46 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 7:46 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]
"I've asked him countless times if he'd like to join me. I've tried offering all kinds of different sports and activities, everything from fast-paced and fun to relaxing and low-impact. He's not interested in any of it."
I think you should stop asking him to do physical stuff with you. You know he doesn’t want to, so after a certain point, asking him is obnoxious —“let me remind you again how much I like to exercise! and how you are lazy and unmotivated!"
This is where, as people have mentioned, you are developing contempt for him. It sounds like you believe you are an overall better person than your spouse because you are fit. And you might be overall a better person, but it is not because of your fitness.
As people get older, things like group sports or using a gym become less appealing for lots of reasons. Your husband is very typical. It sounds that about five days a week you are out and about doing some fitness or sports-related activity. That’s great! And you get the moral high ground here because of this-- but that and a dollar will get you a subway ride. I'd waste no time worrying about his health/fitness/choice of hobbies and really delve into how much you love him and want to stay married.
good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 9:59 AM on August 5 [1 favorite]
I think you should stop asking him to do physical stuff with you. You know he doesn’t want to, so after a certain point, asking him is obnoxious —“let me remind you again how much I like to exercise! and how you are lazy and unmotivated!"
This is where, as people have mentioned, you are developing contempt for him. It sounds like you believe you are an overall better person than your spouse because you are fit. And you might be overall a better person, but it is not because of your fitness.
As people get older, things like group sports or using a gym become less appealing for lots of reasons. Your husband is very typical. It sounds that about five days a week you are out and about doing some fitness or sports-related activity. That’s great! And you get the moral high ground here because of this-- but that and a dollar will get you a subway ride. I'd waste no time worrying about his health/fitness/choice of hobbies and really delve into how much you love him and want to stay married.
good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 9:59 AM on August 5 [1 favorite]
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posted by beagle at 8:02 AM on August 3 [16 favorites]