Are those red flags of an unhealthy/possibly DV relationship?
June 15, 2024 6:22 PM Subscribe
In February, I posted about one of my closest friends, Xavier. I've seen some things here and there that are concerning me, so wanted to ask.
Disclaimer: I'm not sure exactly what constitutes as a DV relationship, so if the topic seemed overblown for that (ie, those signs are nowhere close to DV), apologies.
2nd disclaimer: Yes, I acknowledge I am terminally ill and that there are better places to preserve my energy, but I deeply care about Xavier and his wife, and this is concerning to me, so please do not post an answer that suggests I ignore this and focus on my own energy. Xavier is a close friend of mine, so I care.
So since my February question, Xavier has been busy and very stressed with his house flipping project—that hasn't changed (much). During a few gatherings, Xavier casually mentioned that he held on his wife (who has been helping him with the project)'s phone during renovations, because she got super distracted and/or too focused on her phone. This bothered me a bit, but I'm not clear if this is consensual and his wife is okay with him taking away her phone. It might very well be, and it's something SHE asked for, but I really do not know.
Other remarks I've seen include Xavier continually calling his wife a bad driver after she got in a car accident. Based on my (admittedly small) understanding of the accident, it was a hit and run and somebody else's fault, but Xavier was angry about the accident, because it was the 2nd accident they had (the first one was a car accident Xavier himself got into). He, in front of me, said she was not a good driver and that he was considering getting a SUV for them, but realized since her accident that a smaller car would be better. I wasn't there at both accidents, but it seemed pretty presumptuous (from my perspective) for him to call her a bad driver when we live in an area that has a high volume of accidents and bad drivers, and it does seem to me like Xavier had his own close calls, so it's hard to say if his wife is a bad driver. I have barely experienced her driving, anyway.
He also scolded her many times for other stuff, and came across as a bit demanding and aggressive. One example is when we were driving somewhere, and his wife asked him to stop somewhere on the way so she could pick something up. He got very angry and demanded to know where exactly, and why she needed the item, and kept yelling at her and asking her to respect his feelings. The item? A simple small LED light string in a small plastic bag. He explained to me that he was sick of her having so many items and that she had a hoarder mindset. I felt uncomfortable in that situation, especially I was there and he was kind of yelling at her while driving, and it just seemed ridiculous, especially over a small LED light string. I understand his perspective on hoarding stuff and preferring to keep things simple—I'm the same way, but it seemed (on my end) a bit overblown to get so mad over such a simple small item.
Another red flag is...again, this was a RUMOR and not fully confirmed, but some mutual friends and others said that Xavier had verbally abused his ex-girlfriend. I cannot comment on that or not, as I was not there and there are always different sides to a story. However, there you go.
I am not sure if what I've been seeing is normal relationship stuff or something more deeper, or even DV/abusiveness. It's kinda surreal because so far, Xavier has been perfectly nice to me, very supportive, and never once yelled at me. It's a bit weird, because I noticed with other friends around, Xavier has kept his remarks/approach to his wife toned down, but if it's just the three of us, he doesn't seem to hold back as much.
I have not once seen him say anything INSULTING or hurtful to his wife, mostly the kind of stuff mentioned above, nor have I seen him physically harm/hit her. However, I'm not with them all the time.
Is what I'm seeing possibly red flags, and what would suggested approaches be if he continues to treat her that way in front of me? I'm non-confrontational, but I don't like what I see. Is there a subtle way to maneuver the conversation to get the heat off his wife, and to get him to calm down? (Not control him/them, though—simply to calm things down.) That is, if those are red flags.
I don't have much experience with relationships, but I do feel something is off, especially more recently. It could be Xavier is going through extreme stress, and projecting some on his wife, but it's a bit concerning to see, so wanted to get a gauge/feelers from AskMe if what I'm seeing is normal (if so—good!) or not so normal (in that case, advice/suggestions would be appreciated). His wife rarely argues or says anything back.
Many thanks!
Disclaimer: I'm not sure exactly what constitutes as a DV relationship, so if the topic seemed overblown for that (ie, those signs are nowhere close to DV), apologies.
2nd disclaimer: Yes, I acknowledge I am terminally ill and that there are better places to preserve my energy, but I deeply care about Xavier and his wife, and this is concerning to me, so please do not post an answer that suggests I ignore this and focus on my own energy. Xavier is a close friend of mine, so I care.
So since my February question, Xavier has been busy and very stressed with his house flipping project—that hasn't changed (much). During a few gatherings, Xavier casually mentioned that he held on his wife (who has been helping him with the project)'s phone during renovations, because she got super distracted and/or too focused on her phone. This bothered me a bit, but I'm not clear if this is consensual and his wife is okay with him taking away her phone. It might very well be, and it's something SHE asked for, but I really do not know.
Other remarks I've seen include Xavier continually calling his wife a bad driver after she got in a car accident. Based on my (admittedly small) understanding of the accident, it was a hit and run and somebody else's fault, but Xavier was angry about the accident, because it was the 2nd accident they had (the first one was a car accident Xavier himself got into). He, in front of me, said she was not a good driver and that he was considering getting a SUV for them, but realized since her accident that a smaller car would be better. I wasn't there at both accidents, but it seemed pretty presumptuous (from my perspective) for him to call her a bad driver when we live in an area that has a high volume of accidents and bad drivers, and it does seem to me like Xavier had his own close calls, so it's hard to say if his wife is a bad driver. I have barely experienced her driving, anyway.
He also scolded her many times for other stuff, and came across as a bit demanding and aggressive. One example is when we were driving somewhere, and his wife asked him to stop somewhere on the way so she could pick something up. He got very angry and demanded to know where exactly, and why she needed the item, and kept yelling at her and asking her to respect his feelings. The item? A simple small LED light string in a small plastic bag. He explained to me that he was sick of her having so many items and that she had a hoarder mindset. I felt uncomfortable in that situation, especially I was there and he was kind of yelling at her while driving, and it just seemed ridiculous, especially over a small LED light string. I understand his perspective on hoarding stuff and preferring to keep things simple—I'm the same way, but it seemed (on my end) a bit overblown to get so mad over such a simple small item.
Another red flag is...again, this was a RUMOR and not fully confirmed, but some mutual friends and others said that Xavier had verbally abused his ex-girlfriend. I cannot comment on that or not, as I was not there and there are always different sides to a story. However, there you go.
I am not sure if what I've been seeing is normal relationship stuff or something more deeper, or even DV/abusiveness. It's kinda surreal because so far, Xavier has been perfectly nice to me, very supportive, and never once yelled at me. It's a bit weird, because I noticed with other friends around, Xavier has kept his remarks/approach to his wife toned down, but if it's just the three of us, he doesn't seem to hold back as much.
I have not once seen him say anything INSULTING or hurtful to his wife, mostly the kind of stuff mentioned above, nor have I seen him physically harm/hit her. However, I'm not with them all the time.
Is what I'm seeing possibly red flags, and what would suggested approaches be if he continues to treat her that way in front of me? I'm non-confrontational, but I don't like what I see. Is there a subtle way to maneuver the conversation to get the heat off his wife, and to get him to calm down? (Not control him/them, though—simply to calm things down.) That is, if those are red flags.
I don't have much experience with relationships, but I do feel something is off, especially more recently. It could be Xavier is going through extreme stress, and projecting some on his wife, but it's a bit concerning to see, so wanted to get a gauge/feelers from AskMe if what I'm seeing is normal (if so—good!) or not so normal (in that case, advice/suggestions would be appreciated). His wife rarely argues or says anything back.
Many thanks!
The phone and the driving, I can't say much about without more context that you don't have. But the anger and the yelling and the scolding sound unacceptable.
If she is being abused, there is a real danger that anything you do or say to him could make things much worse for her. So I would not recommend you do anything without first finding a way to say to *her* in private that you've become concerned about how he speaks to her, and that you'd like to help if there's something she wants you to do or say to him. And then listen carefully and decide what to do from there.
posted by Stacey at 6:56 PM on June 15 [10 favorites]
If she is being abused, there is a real danger that anything you do or say to him could make things much worse for her. So I would not recommend you do anything without first finding a way to say to *her* in private that you've become concerned about how he speaks to her, and that you'd like to help if there's something she wants you to do or say to him. And then listen carefully and decide what to do from there.
posted by Stacey at 6:56 PM on June 15 [10 favorites]
This is controlling and abusive behavior. She should not tolerate it. It's not healthy at all.
posted by summerstorm at 6:57 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
posted by summerstorm at 6:57 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
It's emotionally abusive to yell like that so much to his wife, yes. The best way to handle that is to be a bystander who says something either in the moment and/or you need to tell him that his yelling is not cool.
You may want to practice saying something like " wow, I feel like we are being punished for your anger and it's upsetting to hear you yell at your wife like this. Please tone it down. "
You need to be direct here. You cannot be indirect and you can't be non-confrontational, I'm sorry. The only other thing you could do is stop being friends
with him
Or if you feel comfortable you may want to pull his wife aside and ask if she is OK. I don't care about control or not or meddling or not. This is shitty behavior and I fully support other men holding men accountable for it.
Caveat: I'm not trained in DV deescalation so if any of this would make things worse, I'm open to hearing from someone who knows more. But these are my suggestions.
posted by mxjudyliza at 7:00 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
You may want to practice saying something like " wow, I feel like we are being punished for your anger and it's upsetting to hear you yell at your wife like this. Please tone it down. "
You need to be direct here. You cannot be indirect and you can't be non-confrontational, I'm sorry. The only other thing you could do is stop being friends
with him
Or if you feel comfortable you may want to pull his wife aside and ask if she is OK. I don't care about control or not or meddling or not. This is shitty behavior and I fully support other men holding men accountable for it.
Caveat: I'm not trained in DV deescalation so if any of this would make things worse, I'm open to hearing from someone who knows more. But these are my suggestions.
posted by mxjudyliza at 7:00 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
This is definitely not ok. In DV situations, whether this one is or not, it's important to center the abused person. Can you reach out to his wife directly and ask her how she's doing? E.g. "I've noticed lately that Xavier is speaking very meanly to you. I'm here if you want to talk, if you need help, etc." She'll likely brush it off, minimize it, be embarrassed/ashamed but it's important for her to realize that someone IS noticing and that you could be someone safe that she can reach out to at some point, IF you're ok with being in that position. Consider how that would impact your friendship with Xavier though - he could cut you off or try to isolate his wife more.
If you have this convo with her, be sure to sincerely boost her up - abuse is meant to wear a person down so they forget who they are. So reminding her that you think she's a great person or what you think is special about her helps keep her sense of self. This all depends on what kind of relationship you have with her though. See "Why does he do that" by Lundy Bancroft - he has a chapter on how to support women in abusive relationships and the key thing is to be the opposite of her abuser. E.g. believe in her, support her decisions.
If you're not comfortable talking to her because you feel you don't know her well enough, then I would talk to him when she isn't around. Something like, are you ok? You seem on edge lately. I wouldn't mention anything about his wife (yet) because then he could take it out in her.
You say that he's been nice to you, but that's very typical of abusive types - they'll treat their friends fine and when she finally says to other people "he was abusive" they're shocked and say "but he was always so kind!" And may disbelieve her. So, just because he's nice to you, doesn't mean he's not capable of being abusive. I also note that he was your bully in school; it seems like he's kept some of that bullying streak.
If he gets nasty towards his wife again in your presence, I'd try to speak up. For yourself, not her (unless you and her agree upon something beforehand). Like "Hey Xav, I'm feel really stressed out with how you're reacting right now. Can we just take a minute?" Or "Hey Xav, I think you need to calm down my guy. It's not the end of the world." Or "Hey Xav, are you ok? Because this isn't about the lights." I don't know if that counts as confrontational to you, but do SOMETHING to disrupt the moment as much as you feel safe doing so.
posted by foxjacket at 7:38 PM on June 15 [9 favorites]
If you have this convo with her, be sure to sincerely boost her up - abuse is meant to wear a person down so they forget who they are. So reminding her that you think she's a great person or what you think is special about her helps keep her sense of self. This all depends on what kind of relationship you have with her though. See "Why does he do that" by Lundy Bancroft - he has a chapter on how to support women in abusive relationships and the key thing is to be the opposite of her abuser. E.g. believe in her, support her decisions.
If you're not comfortable talking to her because you feel you don't know her well enough, then I would talk to him when she isn't around. Something like, are you ok? You seem on edge lately. I wouldn't mention anything about his wife (yet) because then he could take it out in her.
You say that he's been nice to you, but that's very typical of abusive types - they'll treat their friends fine and when she finally says to other people "he was abusive" they're shocked and say "but he was always so kind!" And may disbelieve her. So, just because he's nice to you, doesn't mean he's not capable of being abusive. I also note that he was your bully in school; it seems like he's kept some of that bullying streak.
If he gets nasty towards his wife again in your presence, I'd try to speak up. For yourself, not her (unless you and her agree upon something beforehand). Like "Hey Xav, I'm feel really stressed out with how you're reacting right now. Can we just take a minute?" Or "Hey Xav, I think you need to calm down my guy. It's not the end of the world." Or "Hey Xav, are you ok? Because this isn't about the lights." I don't know if that counts as confrontational to you, but do SOMETHING to disrupt the moment as much as you feel safe doing so.
posted by foxjacket at 7:38 PM on June 15 [9 favorites]
The pattern of scolding in public, especially over something minor like wanting to buy an LED light string, is the only this that seems clearly not good. For the phone, I think the missing context matters - some people are really addicted to their phones, and it would seem reasonable for a spouse to ask such a partner to be unplugged during social events so that they can be present. For the comment about driving, personally I don't subscribe to the idea that people can never say anything negative about their partner, to me it's more important about the overall balance - as long as the clear majority of things they say are positive, that wouldn't raise any concern to me.
What's not clear is if you've noticed a pattern of escalating public scolding or not. If you have, I think you could just point it out to your friend, and ask him why. He might dismiss it, but at least then the next time he scolds her in front of you, you can say "Hey, you're doing it again - why are getting so angry for nothing?" It might plant a seed in his mind that his behavior needs to change.
posted by coffeecat at 9:08 PM on June 15
What's not clear is if you've noticed a pattern of escalating public scolding or not. If you have, I think you could just point it out to your friend, and ask him why. He might dismiss it, but at least then the next time he scolds her in front of you, you can say "Hey, you're doing it again - why are getting so angry for nothing?" It might plant a seed in his mind that his behavior needs to change.
posted by coffeecat at 9:08 PM on June 15
You don’t mention anything about the wife’s behavior. Is she yelling at him? Does she scold him? Is that their normal way of communicating? If she is just sitting there and taking it then there is definitely a problem. If she’s giving back as good as she gets, that’s a more complicated question. Some relationships are just like that.
The phone thing seems odd, but could be cleared up with a simple direct question of “did she ask you to take her phone away?“ If the answer is no, then you have removed all ambiguity and this is definitely a DV situation (or will rise to that level soon).
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:28 PM on June 15
The phone thing seems odd, but could be cleared up with a simple direct question of “did she ask you to take her phone away?“ If the answer is no, then you have removed all ambiguity and this is definitely a DV situation (or will rise to that level soon).
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:28 PM on June 15
Response by poster: You don’t mention anything about the wife’s behavior.
She doesn't say anything — just kind of blanks out and lets him finish ranting/yelling/whatever then explain or clarify, and she often looks defeated/exhausted but not hurt. She's pretty tough, at least from my observation externally — hard to get her feelings hurt based on that external observation.
Personally, I can't imagine being a "close friend" to someone who repeatedly spoke to their spouse or partner in my presence like that, but that's obviously a standard not shared by many many men.
This pattern of scolding her began very recently. They've been together (relationship/married) for about 15 years, and I've never once saw him get mad or yell at her until this year (at least in front of me), just to clarify. I suspect it's the stress he's going through with his renovation project (not an excuse, just an observation). I was roommates with him and his wife, plus a few other people, for 5 years and during that time it's never been an issue.
Something like, are you ok? You seem on edge lately.
I like that!
posted by dubious_dude at 9:52 PM on June 15
She doesn't say anything — just kind of blanks out and lets him finish ranting/yelling/whatever then explain or clarify, and she often looks defeated/exhausted but not hurt. She's pretty tough, at least from my observation externally — hard to get her feelings hurt based on that external observation.
Personally, I can't imagine being a "close friend" to someone who repeatedly spoke to their spouse or partner in my presence like that, but that's obviously a standard not shared by many many men.
This pattern of scolding her began very recently. They've been together (relationship/married) for about 15 years, and I've never once saw him get mad or yell at her until this year (at least in front of me), just to clarify. I suspect it's the stress he's going through with his renovation project (not an excuse, just an observation). I was roommates with him and his wife, plus a few other people, for 5 years and during that time it's never been an issue.
Something like, are you ok? You seem on edge lately.
I like that!
posted by dubious_dude at 9:52 PM on June 15
I think that a close friend has the right to ask questions like "hey, are you OK" - especially since you're noticing a change. While stress is a factor in how people react, it's not OK to lash out at someone like that. The fact that you're noticing this is probably a sign you're on the "inside" - and are close enough to ask.
(all the best with the other stuff too!)
posted by freethefeet at 3:19 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
(all the best with the other stuff too!)
posted by freethefeet at 3:19 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
I would recommend reaching out to the wife directly if you can, rather than raising it with Xavier first.
Here’s why: abusers often prize their public image, and hold their victims responsible for maintaining it. If this is a DV situation (which is possible given the dynamic you described), you calling Xavier out may lead to him taking out on his wife in private.
Instead, if you can speak with the wife privately, I might suggest trying an open-ended observation/question. “I’ve noticed Xavier has been speaking with you very harshly, and it’s been making me uncomfortable. How are you doing? Is there any way I can support you?”
posted by ourobouros at 5:49 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
Here’s why: abusers often prize their public image, and hold their victims responsible for maintaining it. If this is a DV situation (which is possible given the dynamic you described), you calling Xavier out may lead to him taking out on his wife in private.
Instead, if you can speak with the wife privately, I might suggest trying an open-ended observation/question. “I’ve noticed Xavier has been speaking with you very harshly, and it’s been making me uncomfortable. How are you doing? Is there any way I can support you?”
posted by ourobouros at 5:49 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
Echoing the “are you ok? You seem on edge” question if you’re in the moment. And talking to the wife who it sounds like is also an ex-roommate of yours.
I know your friend group is sometimes really enmeshed in a lot of patterns of triangulation and gossip and blame. I would encourage you, whatever you do, to do it directly. Ask Xavier about Xavier; ask the wife about the wife. Be present with them.
I’ve been through stressful renovations that stretched both time and money resources and it certainly didn’t leave my husband and I at our best - the Home Depot or IKEA fight is clichéed for a reason. But we didn’t try to control each other. So, yellow flag here. But I think your job is not to decide What’s Right, but to ask if people are okay. If Xavier opens up, I think there is an opportunity to press a little more and make it clear you’ve seen a change. But if he doesn’t I think it’s just being ready to support his wife if/when she asks.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:06 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
I know your friend group is sometimes really enmeshed in a lot of patterns of triangulation and gossip and blame. I would encourage you, whatever you do, to do it directly. Ask Xavier about Xavier; ask the wife about the wife. Be present with them.
I’ve been through stressful renovations that stretched both time and money resources and it certainly didn’t leave my husband and I at our best - the Home Depot or IKEA fight is clichéed for a reason. But we didn’t try to control each other. So, yellow flag here. But I think your job is not to decide What’s Right, but to ask if people are okay. If Xavier opens up, I think there is an opportunity to press a little more and make it clear you’ve seen a change. But if he doesn’t I think it’s just being ready to support his wife if/when she asks.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:06 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
A note on reaching out to the wife: if he's controlling her phone, it may not be safe for her if you text her.
posted by lapis at 6:37 AM on June 16 [7 favorites]
posted by lapis at 6:37 AM on June 16 [7 favorites]
You cannot control how Xavier treats his wife, nor can you fix their relationship. A trained counselor may be able to help them. At the very least, Xavier's behavior amounts to emotional abuse.
When Xavier voices his complaints to you, he uses your friendship to validate his actions toward her. Since this makes you uncomfortable, you can ask him to stop complaining about his wife to you. Tell him this using simple sentences: "I don't want to hear this. Please stop telling me this." Do this every time he brings it up. You can also ask him to behave civilly toward her when they are in your home. "This is upsetting. Please stop or go elsewhere to have this conversation."
You don't get to do that when you are in their home (or car), but you can ask one of them to take you home or take a cab. In any case, the point is that you have no right to try to fix their relationship, and it would be inappropriate to try, even if you were trained in the skills necessary.
Having said all that, I know I have characterized Xavier's behavior as abusive—it seems that way from my viewpoint here in cyberland. Perhaps it's not. But it is upsetting to you. You do not have to put up with it. I'm not asking you to abandon your friends. I'm just suggesting that you require them to quit beating you over the head with issues that don't concern you.
posted by mule98J at 8:17 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
When Xavier voices his complaints to you, he uses your friendship to validate his actions toward her. Since this makes you uncomfortable, you can ask him to stop complaining about his wife to you. Tell him this using simple sentences: "I don't want to hear this. Please stop telling me this." Do this every time he brings it up. You can also ask him to behave civilly toward her when they are in your home. "This is upsetting. Please stop or go elsewhere to have this conversation."
You don't get to do that when you are in their home (or car), but you can ask one of them to take you home or take a cab. In any case, the point is that you have no right to try to fix their relationship, and it would be inappropriate to try, even if you were trained in the skills necessary.
Having said all that, I know I have characterized Xavier's behavior as abusive—it seems that way from my viewpoint here in cyberland. Perhaps it's not. But it is upsetting to you. You do not have to put up with it. I'm not asking you to abandon your friends. I'm just suggesting that you require them to quit beating you over the head with issues that don't concern you.
posted by mule98J at 8:17 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
I think it's appropriate to bring up stuff when it's happening at someone else's house or in their car. They don't get to act inappropriately in ways that affect you just because they own the venue where it's happening. Saying that you really don't feel comfortable with the tone of the conversation or the topic or whatever is reasonable. Obviously you wouldn't tell them to go someplace else if it's their place, but you can always leave.
posted by lapis at 4:01 PM on June 16 [1 favorite]
posted by lapis at 4:01 PM on June 16 [1 favorite]
A few general things I'd add:
DV doesn't usually start with physical violence, it's emotional or verbal abuse, and it starts small, like yelling or put downs etc. This page outlines some of the ways that progression can look.
There are a bunch of websites that have lists of behaviors that might be flags, here and here. The primary thing in DV is that the behavior is a pattern where the abuser is trying to gain power and maintain control over the other person. Yelling one time is not necessarily DV. Consistently putting someone down in front of their friends so the friends don't want to spend time with them anymore is.
If you want to process more, you can call a domestic violence hotline. The people who answer can talk to you about what you see, what DV looks like, etc, etc. ThereIsHelp contains a bunch of useful links.
You might consider having a list of some local DV resources, should she decide to reach out to you. If you let me know where you are, I'd be happy to assist in generating a list, along with more national ones.
Paying attention, educating yourself about the issues and considering the ways you can try to interrupt these patterns when you see them is important, because DV lives on the back of "That's their business, not mine".
/end soapbox
posted by Gorgik at 6:38 AM on June 17 [2 favorites]
DV doesn't usually start with physical violence, it's emotional or verbal abuse, and it starts small, like yelling or put downs etc. This page outlines some of the ways that progression can look.
There are a bunch of websites that have lists of behaviors that might be flags, here and here. The primary thing in DV is that the behavior is a pattern where the abuser is trying to gain power and maintain control over the other person. Yelling one time is not necessarily DV. Consistently putting someone down in front of their friends so the friends don't want to spend time with them anymore is.
If you want to process more, you can call a domestic violence hotline. The people who answer can talk to you about what you see, what DV looks like, etc, etc. ThereIsHelp contains a bunch of useful links.
You might consider having a list of some local DV resources, should she decide to reach out to you. If you let me know where you are, I'd be happy to assist in generating a list, along with more national ones.
Paying attention, educating yourself about the issues and considering the ways you can try to interrupt these patterns when you see them is important, because DV lives on the back of "That's their business, not mine".
/end soapbox
posted by Gorgik at 6:38 AM on June 17 [2 favorites]
"so far, Xavier has been perfectly nice to me, very supportive, and never once yelled at me."
Plenty of assholes or abusers are nice to some people sometimes; men who hate women are often very nice to their male friends. Whether this is true for your friend I couldn't say. One potential read on this is that Xavier has always been like this, it's only recently that he has started showing you this side of himself, either because the stress he's under makes it harder for him to hide it or because he thinks that you're also this kind of person or at least won't call him on it.
"I have not once seen him say anything INSULTING or hurtful to his wife"
I mean, you've seen him yell at his wife, scold her in front of you, and berate a service worker. You say yourself that he "continually call[ed] his wife a bad driver" and that he called her a hoarder (which in casual speech is basically always derogatory). It's not clear from your account whether his wife was there when he said these specific things, but I don't think insulting someone behind their back is any better than insulting them to their face. In your previous question you said he was shit-talking other people you know behind their backs as well.
It also kinda seems like you think it might be ok for him to do these things if his wife was a hoarder or a dangerous driver? But this: "He got very angry and demanded to know where exactly, and why she needed the item, and kept yelling at her and asking her to respect his feelings" is asshole behavior regardless of how many items she personally owns.
It literally doesn't matter one iota if this is "technically" abuse or not; if you don't appreciate being subjected to this jerk behavior, the thing to do is to tell him to stop acting like a jerk. So he's stressed? So's everyone! You know he's capable of moderating his behavior, because he does it around your other friends (who probably told him to knock it off a long time ago).
posted by radiogreentea at 9:50 AM on June 17 [1 favorite]
Plenty of assholes or abusers are nice to some people sometimes; men who hate women are often very nice to their male friends. Whether this is true for your friend I couldn't say. One potential read on this is that Xavier has always been like this, it's only recently that he has started showing you this side of himself, either because the stress he's under makes it harder for him to hide it or because he thinks that you're also this kind of person or at least won't call him on it.
"I have not once seen him say anything INSULTING or hurtful to his wife"
I mean, you've seen him yell at his wife, scold her in front of you, and berate a service worker. You say yourself that he "continually call[ed] his wife a bad driver" and that he called her a hoarder (which in casual speech is basically always derogatory). It's not clear from your account whether his wife was there when he said these specific things, but I don't think insulting someone behind their back is any better than insulting them to their face. In your previous question you said he was shit-talking other people you know behind their backs as well.
It also kinda seems like you think it might be ok for him to do these things if his wife was a hoarder or a dangerous driver? But this: "He got very angry and demanded to know where exactly, and why she needed the item, and kept yelling at her and asking her to respect his feelings" is asshole behavior regardless of how many items she personally owns.
It literally doesn't matter one iota if this is "technically" abuse or not; if you don't appreciate being subjected to this jerk behavior, the thing to do is to tell him to stop acting like a jerk. So he's stressed? So's everyone! You know he's capable of moderating his behavior, because he does it around your other friends (who probably told him to knock it off a long time ago).
posted by radiogreentea at 9:50 AM on June 17 [1 favorite]
This pattern of scolding her began very recently. They've been together (relationship/married) for about 15 years, and I've never once saw him get mad or yell at her until this year (at least in front of me), just to clarify
I would not presume this pattern began recently. Rather, it's very possible he's been behaving this way to her for years, but has only recently lost enough of a filter and sense of propriety around you. So, is it possible that the stress and renovations aren't causing the behavior, but simply he's not restraining himself around you anymore? That would track with the restaurant situation too. I don't think people just start yelling at waiters and spouses when they've never been that way before.
You told us in your earlier post about him that he bullied you when you were young, and you all became friends. I am going to suggest that his targets have shifted over time, but he's always been and has stayed a bully.
Is there a way you can connect with his wife and talk to her without texting her when he might have the phone?
posted by bluedaisy at 12:42 PM on June 17 [1 favorite]
I would not presume this pattern began recently. Rather, it's very possible he's been behaving this way to her for years, but has only recently lost enough of a filter and sense of propriety around you. So, is it possible that the stress and renovations aren't causing the behavior, but simply he's not restraining himself around you anymore? That would track with the restaurant situation too. I don't think people just start yelling at waiters and spouses when they've never been that way before.
You told us in your earlier post about him that he bullied you when you were young, and you all became friends. I am going to suggest that his targets have shifted over time, but he's always been and has stayed a bully.
Is there a way you can connect with his wife and talk to her without texting her when he might have the phone?
posted by bluedaisy at 12:42 PM on June 17 [1 favorite]
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You've very clearly said that you don't want answers encouraging you to leave this alone, so I'll just note that I stand strongly by the comment I left in your last thread.
And I'll say this. If I were you, and wanted to keep Xavier in my life, I would say to him, without equivocation: "Xavier, what the fuck is wrong with you. The way you talk about and to your wife when I'm present makes me feel gross and it makes you look bad. It makes me uncomfortable to be around you. I think you need to talk to someone about better coping strategies for your stress. I would be happy to help you find a therapist who can do that."
posted by phunniemee at 6:45 PM on June 15 [24 favorites]