Book to Help with Partner Who Gets Worked Up
January 24, 2024 12:37 PM Subscribe
Looking for books that will help me deal with fiance who raises voice and gets worked up when upset.
45 y.o. and a bit nervous to start life with fiance because I feel I have to tiptoe around his feelings or he gets upset. He is in no way violent and doesn't even really yell -- but I have pretty low tolerance for someone raising his voice at me, and when he calms down sees he was excited out of feeling hurt or defensive, and he becomes logical again and apologetic -- but I never know what to do in the moments between when he's excited and when he finally calms down. Done a few Amazon searches for books about this, but I haven't hit on a good query. Happy to read links to webpages and/or other mefi questions on this topic, but would really like a good book recommendation, or at least a good search phrasing that can help me find reading on the topic. Thank you!
45 y.o. and a bit nervous to start life with fiance because I feel I have to tiptoe around his feelings or he gets upset. He is in no way violent and doesn't even really yell -- but I have pretty low tolerance for someone raising his voice at me, and when he calms down sees he was excited out of feeling hurt or defensive, and he becomes logical again and apologetic -- but I never know what to do in the moments between when he's excited and when he finally calms down. Done a few Amazon searches for books about this, but I haven't hit on a good query. Happy to read links to webpages and/or other mefi questions on this topic, but would really like a good book recommendation, or at least a good search phrasing that can help me find reading on the topic. Thank you!
Best answer: I don't have a book rec for men, but this sounds a lot like emotional regulation issue, so searching that term along with mindful conflict resolution, maybe?
Also: you can walk away if someone's making you very uncomfortable, even if it's your fiancé! My father has refused therapy despite desperately needing it, so when he gets not-dangerous-but-still-disturbing-levels-of-ragey, I just excuse myself to get water/go to the bathroom/etc. and give him a couple of minutes to get a hold of himself. At 80, it's highly unlikely he's never going to change, but it helps me interrupt my own stress response from spinning out and taking me along with him.
Have you talked about this issue when he's not in angry-mode so he can see that 1. this behavior is very disturbing to you and 2. when you walk away to give him space, he'll understand it's about his behavior, not him, and he can work on his side of things accordingly. And if he won't work on this with you as a team, well, that's very useful information to have now.
posted by smirkette at 12:50 PM on January 24 [14 favorites]
Also: you can walk away if someone's making you very uncomfortable, even if it's your fiancé! My father has refused therapy despite desperately needing it, so when he gets not-dangerous-but-still-disturbing-levels-of-ragey, I just excuse myself to get water/go to the bathroom/etc. and give him a couple of minutes to get a hold of himself. At 80, it's highly unlikely he's never going to change, but it helps me interrupt my own stress response from spinning out and taking me along with him.
Have you talked about this issue when he's not in angry-mode so he can see that 1. this behavior is very disturbing to you and 2. when you walk away to give him space, he'll understand it's about his behavior, not him, and he can work on his side of things accordingly. And if he won't work on this with you as a team, well, that's very useful information to have now.
posted by smirkette at 12:50 PM on January 24 [14 favorites]
Domestic Violence Awareness Reading List,
Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft. Most angry people are able to manage anger at work or with people they consider more powerful/ higher status. Anger tends to get worse in difficult times, but it's really hard to live with. He needs to ask the question: How do i learn to control my actions and anger? You can learn and set boundaries, but this this is behavior he must learn to manage.
posted by theora55 at 12:53 PM on January 24 [12 favorites]
Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft. Most angry people are able to manage anger at work or with people they consider more powerful/ higher status. Anger tends to get worse in difficult times, but it's really hard to live with. He needs to ask the question: How do i learn to control my actions and anger? You can learn and set boundaries, but this this is behavior he must learn to manage.
posted by theora55 at 12:53 PM on January 24 [12 favorites]
Are you in therapy? It's hard to know if this is about your discomfort with conflict or his behavior. If you truly think his behavior is probably mostly fine but maybe just more animated than what you are used to, then couples counseling would be an excellent thing to do. And you are right to be figuring this out before the wedding.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:53 PM on January 24 [1 favorite]
posted by bluedaisy at 12:53 PM on January 24 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Yes, I've been in therapy many years and have talked to my therapist about this topic several times. She agrees he seems to have emotional dysregulation issues and it seems to affect his relationships and job as well -- which I am patient about. He gets upset when people don't drive "correctly" a lot, etc. He wants to work on this and even before I met him he was reading a book about insecure attachment style (HIS insecure attachment) so I do believe it's something we'll be able to discuss, work on and improve with over time -- we talk quite often about his driving frustrations and he's identified the causes behind some of it, but at the moment I realize that I'm still avoidant about sharing a life with him because of this -- so I wanted a good long book I can read to help me feel more confident about his emotional dysregulation directed towards ME. I'm looking to working towards a way for me not to be afraid to live with someone I'm afraid will get upset for...an illogical reason, tbh.
posted by BeatriceB at 1:05 PM on January 24
posted by BeatriceB at 1:05 PM on January 24
You don't have to live with someone you're afraid to live with even if a book says it real nice.
posted by phunniemee at 1:06 PM on January 24 [98 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 1:06 PM on January 24 [98 favorites]
This internet stranger says that if you were my sister/daughter/best friend, I would urge you to not get married to a person whose emotional volatility makes you feel unsafe. Period. It is not up to you to change yourself to deal with his issues. Please do not try to make yourself smaller for this man or anybody. If he is truly committed to living his life with you, then he should be MOVING MOUNTAINS to do the work on himself.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:13 PM on January 24 [83 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:13 PM on January 24 [83 favorites]
Not to abuse the edit window, but even if you weren't my sister/daughter/beset friend, I'd still urge you to not marry him.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:14 PM on January 24 [16 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:14 PM on January 24 [16 favorites]
Seconding phunniemee, if you are afraid of your partner's anger, then maybe this partner is not for you. He is responsible for his own mental health and behaviour. He needs to do some work, not you.
posted by Kitteh at 1:14 PM on January 24 [23 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 1:14 PM on January 24 [23 favorites]
at the moment I realize that I'm still avoidant about sharing a life with him because of this -- so I wanted a good long book I can read to help me feel more confident about his emotional dysregulation directed towards ME. I'm looking to working towards a way for me not to be afraid to live with someone I'm afraid will get upset for...an illogical reason, tbh
I think you should listen to that fear. Don't find a book to make you feel less afraid when you should be afraid... read The Gift of Fear instead, and learn about how your feelings of avoidance are keeping you safe.
posted by wheatlets at 1:15 PM on January 24 [29 favorites]
I think you should listen to that fear. Don't find a book to make you feel less afraid when you should be afraid... read The Gift of Fear instead, and learn about how your feelings of avoidance are keeping you safe.
posted by wheatlets at 1:15 PM on January 24 [29 favorites]
Why Does He Do That? is pretty much the definitive work on this.
The Gift of Fear
You can't go to therapy for him, and you can't read a book for him. That HE is not asking this question is the ultimate problem.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:16 PM on January 24 [30 favorites]
The Gift of Fear
You can't go to therapy for him, and you can't read a book for him. That HE is not asking this question is the ultimate problem.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:16 PM on January 24 [30 favorites]
The big problem here, for me, is the word "at". You said he raises his voice at you.
Emotional dysregulation is a thing, and one can't always control getting upset. But getting upset at someone is another thing. To me, the at part should be a rare aberration in the worst case, accompanied by genuine apology and actual action to improve.
Just upset and raising voice in general, to be clear, is still something you shouldn't have to deal with and your partner's responsibility to separate himself and protect you from that, while actively working on it.
But it's the at part that I find really troubling and wholly unnecessary, not possible to attribute solely to emotional dysregulation outside of his control.
posted by lookoutbelow at 1:22 PM on January 24 [7 favorites]
Emotional dysregulation is a thing, and one can't always control getting upset. But getting upset at someone is another thing. To me, the at part should be a rare aberration in the worst case, accompanied by genuine apology and actual action to improve.
Just upset and raising voice in general, to be clear, is still something you shouldn't have to deal with and your partner's responsibility to separate himself and protect you from that, while actively working on it.
But it's the at part that I find really troubling and wholly unnecessary, not possible to attribute solely to emotional dysregulation outside of his control.
posted by lookoutbelow at 1:22 PM on January 24 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: So maybe I should be finding a book about how to deal with people who have emotional dysregulation, because this describes my sister, as well -- and I am baffled in general about what to do when people get hurt and start to get illogical. I don't want to be argumentative, but I am sorry this request sounds like I am in danger. I did use the word "afraid" so I suppose that is my fault.
posted by BeatriceB at 1:23 PM on January 24 [4 favorites]
posted by BeatriceB at 1:23 PM on January 24 [4 favorites]
Men who get angry while driving can be super scary to me, and I think you are right to be concerned. He sounds controlling, which can be related to emotional and verbal abuse. I do not think this is a couples counseling issue. I do not think this is about you being uncomfortable with conflict. I think this is about you correctly perceiving that he has a lot of work to do and he's not doing it. It won't get better; it might escalate.
Let's take a big step back: he's the one getting worked up, but you are looking for a book on how to deal with it. You are looking for resources so you can better manage your response to his anger. But how much work is he doing?
My therapist just gave me some book recommendations for a friend of mine who is working through understanding some issues in their relationship. Look for these and see if anything in them feels familiar. If you see yourself, you'll know what you are dealing with.
The Verbally Abusive Relationship
The Emotionally Abused Woman
posted by bluedaisy at 1:26 PM on January 24 [11 favorites]
Let's take a big step back: he's the one getting worked up, but you are looking for a book on how to deal with it. You are looking for resources so you can better manage your response to his anger. But how much work is he doing?
My therapist just gave me some book recommendations for a friend of mine who is working through understanding some issues in their relationship. Look for these and see if anything in them feels familiar. If you see yourself, you'll know what you are dealing with.
The Verbally Abusive Relationship
The Emotionally Abused Woman
posted by bluedaisy at 1:26 PM on January 24 [11 favorites]
Everyone gets emotionally dysregulated. The skills to self-regulate when that happens can be learned. It's important to give one's partner room to have big emotions. So, if your fiance said, "I'm so frustrated! This sucks!" and was clearly dysregulated, it would be inappropriate for you to say, "Calm down, it's not a big deal." But if your fiance gets frustrated and upset and then lashes out at you, stomps around, doesn't self-regulate, and expects you to help him calm down, that's not healthy behavior.
You are not meant to constantly co-regulate with your partner. Co-regulation should happen all the time with children, because they're still learning how to self-regulate. Co-regulation with another adult can be appropriate in extreme circumstances--if you're in a scary medical emergency, just found out a loved one died, or are in some other shocking, overwhelming situation, it's totally appropriate for your partner to co-regulate with you and even give you some slack if you say something out of character. But everyday frustrations, like getting cut off in traffic or losing your glasses? Those don't call for co-regulation. Empathy, sure ("Oh man, that sucks! Can I help you look for them?"). But it's an important adult life skill to be able to self-regulate to a point of being able to receive empathy and support from a loved one without lashing out at them ("Ugh, I hate feeling this way! Yes, I'd love some help" or "Ugh, I feel too upset, I think I need to be alone" are both fine; angrily saying, "you always leave such a mess, it's impossible for me to find anything!" or "obviously I need your help! What a stupid question!" are not). So, it would be fine for you to ask your fiance to go to therapy and work on his emotional regulation skills, and it would also be fine for you to set some boundaries in the meantime: "I'm going to leave the room when you're dysregulated so you can take as much time and space as you need to re-regulate," maybe.
posted by theotherdurassister at 1:51 PM on January 24 [43 favorites]
You are not meant to constantly co-regulate with your partner. Co-regulation should happen all the time with children, because they're still learning how to self-regulate. Co-regulation with another adult can be appropriate in extreme circumstances--if you're in a scary medical emergency, just found out a loved one died, or are in some other shocking, overwhelming situation, it's totally appropriate for your partner to co-regulate with you and even give you some slack if you say something out of character. But everyday frustrations, like getting cut off in traffic or losing your glasses? Those don't call for co-regulation. Empathy, sure ("Oh man, that sucks! Can I help you look for them?"). But it's an important adult life skill to be able to self-regulate to a point of being able to receive empathy and support from a loved one without lashing out at them ("Ugh, I hate feeling this way! Yes, I'd love some help" or "Ugh, I feel too upset, I think I need to be alone" are both fine; angrily saying, "you always leave such a mess, it's impossible for me to find anything!" or "obviously I need your help! What a stupid question!" are not). So, it would be fine for you to ask your fiance to go to therapy and work on his emotional regulation skills, and it would also be fine for you to set some boundaries in the meantime: "I'm going to leave the room when you're dysregulated so you can take as much time and space as you need to re-regulate," maybe.
posted by theotherdurassister at 1:51 PM on January 24 [43 favorites]
Best answer: Beware of this false binary:
Despite his issues, my partner is:
-redeemable, and I have to figure out how to help them
OR
-dangerous and might hurt me
We talk a lot about how important it is to be able to recognize the second thing. But the false dichotomy sucks, too.
You are also fully entitled to decide that he might be fine, totally fine someday, but you won't be there to see it. It may be, that with some therapy and working on himself... he might become a healthy partner and a better communicator, but that you aren't willing to sign up to be along for that ride. That is okay, too. You're 45. You're allowed to stop accepting men who are projects.
Nothing you decide about what you are willing to accept for yourself needs to be a referendum on him. It's your decision and it's about you. This doesn't need to be something you solve with a book. Those are his problems. Your decision is about whether you feel safe and comfortable accepting those.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:54 PM on January 24 [46 favorites]
Despite his issues, my partner is:
-redeemable, and I have to figure out how to help them
OR
-dangerous and might hurt me
We talk a lot about how important it is to be able to recognize the second thing. But the false dichotomy sucks, too.
You are also fully entitled to decide that he might be fine, totally fine someday, but you won't be there to see it. It may be, that with some therapy and working on himself... he might become a healthy partner and a better communicator, but that you aren't willing to sign up to be along for that ride. That is okay, too. You're 45. You're allowed to stop accepting men who are projects.
Nothing you decide about what you are willing to accept for yourself needs to be a referendum on him. It's your decision and it's about you. This doesn't need to be something you solve with a book. Those are his problems. Your decision is about whether you feel safe and comfortable accepting those.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:54 PM on January 24 [46 favorites]
I'm still avoidant about sharing a life with him because of this -- so I wanted a good long book I can read to help me feel more confident about his emotional dysregulation directed towards ME.
Why are you using the word "avoidant," which implies that it is irrational or harmful, to describe the apprehension you feel at the idea of committing yourself long-term to living with someone whose behavior clearly makes you very uneasy? You do realize that just because someone uses a jargony term like "avoidant" doesn't mean you have to adopt it to describe yourself?
I'm looking to working towards a way for me not to be afraid to live with someone I'm afraid will get upset for...an illogical reason, tbh.
It sounds like he's the one with the problem here. Why isn't he looking to working towards a way not to unsettle his future spouse on a regular basis?
I'm going to cut to the chase here, because if this site is still around in eight years I won't be able to bear reading the follow-up question. Unless he commits to changing and takes serious steps towards doing so--by which I mean going to therapy that over time observably produces meaningful results--he will not get better. He will get worse, even if he falls short of what most people would characterize as "abuse" (no guarantee that he will, though). You will keep trying to find ways to torture yourself into accepting his behavior and none of it will do any good. Your life will be considerably smaller, sadder, and darker because of him. Should you have kids together, they will be afraid of him (what's unsettling to an adult is terrifying to a small child). You will spend your life apologizing for this man to other people. In 2024, this is not a mystery or a secret or something no one could have told you you could predict. It's the ABCs. For God's sake, tell him you're postponing the wedding and he's getting therapy, for both your sakes.
posted by praemunire at 1:57 PM on January 24 [36 favorites]
Why are you using the word "avoidant," which implies that it is irrational or harmful, to describe the apprehension you feel at the idea of committing yourself long-term to living with someone whose behavior clearly makes you very uneasy? You do realize that just because someone uses a jargony term like "avoidant" doesn't mean you have to adopt it to describe yourself?
I'm looking to working towards a way for me not to be afraid to live with someone I'm afraid will get upset for...an illogical reason, tbh.
It sounds like he's the one with the problem here. Why isn't he looking to working towards a way not to unsettle his future spouse on a regular basis?
I'm going to cut to the chase here, because if this site is still around in eight years I won't be able to bear reading the follow-up question. Unless he commits to changing and takes serious steps towards doing so--by which I mean going to therapy that over time observably produces meaningful results--he will not get better. He will get worse, even if he falls short of what most people would characterize as "abuse" (no guarantee that he will, though). You will keep trying to find ways to torture yourself into accepting his behavior and none of it will do any good. Your life will be considerably smaller, sadder, and darker because of him. Should you have kids together, they will be afraid of him (what's unsettling to an adult is terrifying to a small child). You will spend your life apologizing for this man to other people. In 2024, this is not a mystery or a secret or something no one could have told you you could predict. It's the ABCs. For God's sake, tell him you're postponing the wedding and he's getting therapy, for both your sakes.
posted by praemunire at 1:57 PM on January 24 [36 favorites]
Best answer: I would recommend Harriet Lerner’s books, in particular The Dance of Connection (which talks about having bottom line discussions too, which is where I hope you land.)
But I agree with the consensus that you can’t read yourself into safety. You deserve a safe home that is a refuge from daily stresses, not one where you are waiting for an outburst. I would encourage you not to move in together/get married until you can have that.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:04 PM on January 24 [13 favorites]
But I agree with the consensus that you can’t read yourself into safety. You deserve a safe home that is a refuge from daily stresses, not one where you are waiting for an outburst. I would encourage you not to move in together/get married until you can have that.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:04 PM on January 24 [13 favorites]
You're asking for books to help you deal with him because HE IS REFUSING TO WORK ON HIMSELF, yes? Refusing to take responsibility for his own issues. Dumping his negative feelings on you, and then leaving it to you to heal yourself from the harm he causes you.
Like. You didn't say he is in therapy and working hard on himself to curb his emotional incontinence. So... how is this man being your fiance a good idea for you?
Do you really want to spend the rest of your life dealing with this inside your home 24/7/365? Do you know what it does to your self-esteem, your psyche, your very sense of yourself as a person... when the one guy who supposedly loves you more than anyone else ever will, the one man who is your safe haven and your soft place to fall, YELLS AT YOU every time he has a bad day?
If you look at my post and comment history, you'll see that I'm almost aggressively biased towards always maintaining connections with difficult people. I'm the opposite of the person who advocates cutting someone out of your life over their bad behavior. Usually I am over here in a corner shouting about how holding firm boundaries can help you lovingly, kindly, and affectionately deal with difficult people in a way that protects you and your relationship with them.
But the exception to that rule is when the difficult person will live inside your home, your bed, your heart for the rest of your life. Why? Because intimacy is a boundary-less experience. You can't hold firm boundaries against your intimate partner day in, day out, year in, year out.
Your intimate partner has to be someone who only very rarely even toes the line of your boundaries, just naturally due to their innate personality and compatibility with you. If your intimate partner is someone who habitually violates your personal boundaries unless you are actively defending yourself, then... you can never let your guard down with them. You will not be safe if you do.
What generally happens is that you will end up gaslighting yourself that "he's not that bad" and "it's my fault for allowing him to violate my boundaries, for failing to be firm with him," and "I'm can't be damaged unless he INTENDS to hurt me, and since he doesn't intend to hurt me, that must mean I am not actually being damaged," etc.
So let's count up the harms here:
1. Chronic harm to you by someone whom you CANNOT maintain a constant guard against, because intimacy is a boundary-less experience.
2. Chronic harm to you from someone who tells you they love you, and yet yells at you, or dumps all their negativity on you, which is a total mindfuck of what love even means.
3. Chronic harm to yourself from telling yourself this is your fault, or that this isn't really as bad as it feels.
Why, OP? Why would you choose this life? It's not worth it.
This person can be someone who merely co-exists in this world whom you wish well. This person can be your friend who isn't romantically involved with you. This person can even be your boyfriend who lives in a separate apartment, whom you see and spend time with every weekend or twice a week or whatever. All of these can be safe and wonderful possibilities for your life. Please think about these options. Do not marry or live with this man.
posted by MiraK at 2:09 PM on January 24 [30 favorites]
Like. You didn't say he is in therapy and working hard on himself to curb his emotional incontinence. So... how is this man being your fiance a good idea for you?
Do you really want to spend the rest of your life dealing with this inside your home 24/7/365? Do you know what it does to your self-esteem, your psyche, your very sense of yourself as a person... when the one guy who supposedly loves you more than anyone else ever will, the one man who is your safe haven and your soft place to fall, YELLS AT YOU every time he has a bad day?
If you look at my post and comment history, you'll see that I'm almost aggressively biased towards always maintaining connections with difficult people. I'm the opposite of the person who advocates cutting someone out of your life over their bad behavior. Usually I am over here in a corner shouting about how holding firm boundaries can help you lovingly, kindly, and affectionately deal with difficult people in a way that protects you and your relationship with them.
But the exception to that rule is when the difficult person will live inside your home, your bed, your heart for the rest of your life. Why? Because intimacy is a boundary-less experience. You can't hold firm boundaries against your intimate partner day in, day out, year in, year out.
Your intimate partner has to be someone who only very rarely even toes the line of your boundaries, just naturally due to their innate personality and compatibility with you. If your intimate partner is someone who habitually violates your personal boundaries unless you are actively defending yourself, then... you can never let your guard down with them. You will not be safe if you do.
What generally happens is that you will end up gaslighting yourself that "he's not that bad" and "it's my fault for allowing him to violate my boundaries, for failing to be firm with him," and "I'm can't be damaged unless he INTENDS to hurt me, and since he doesn't intend to hurt me, that must mean I am not actually being damaged," etc.
So let's count up the harms here:
1. Chronic harm to you by someone whom you CANNOT maintain a constant guard against, because intimacy is a boundary-less experience.
2. Chronic harm to you from someone who tells you they love you, and yet yells at you, or dumps all their negativity on you, which is a total mindfuck of what love even means.
3. Chronic harm to yourself from telling yourself this is your fault, or that this isn't really as bad as it feels.
Why, OP? Why would you choose this life? It's not worth it.
This person can be someone who merely co-exists in this world whom you wish well. This person can be your friend who isn't romantically involved with you. This person can even be your boyfriend who lives in a separate apartment, whom you see and spend time with every weekend or twice a week or whatever. All of these can be safe and wonderful possibilities for your life. Please think about these options. Do not marry or live with this man.
posted by MiraK at 2:09 PM on January 24 [30 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for those that have given me constructive information. Shutting this down as it's getting ridiculous.
posted by BeatriceB at 2:13 PM on January 24 [6 favorites]
posted by BeatriceB at 2:13 PM on January 24 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Your fiance may not be "irredeemable." He does need to make a change and I use myself as an example. I used to be the sometimes loud angry partner. I was the one that got mad driving and cursed nonstop. After one noisy interaction my husband said, "You treat me worse than you would a stranger on the street." I decided that I need to fix this.
I went to the doctor and was diagnosed with depression and anxiety. I took medication and this helped me get control of my frustration. We went to couple's counseling. A book we read together was The Intimate Enemy, which taught us how to fight without fighting. With good will from both of us we worked out a plan for me to work on my triggers and for him to really listen to what I was trying to say. It only took 3 sessions to get us on a healthy path. I changed my behaviour.
And I got a stereo in my car with music that I enjoy and feel like singing to. This lightened my mood while driving and I decided to wave at other drivers instead of shooting the finger. Instead of cursing, I taught myself to say, "Oh dude that was not cool!"
This just goes to show that there is hope if he acknowledges that he needs to change and does the work.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 2:21 PM on January 24 [27 favorites]
I went to the doctor and was diagnosed with depression and anxiety. I took medication and this helped me get control of my frustration. We went to couple's counseling. A book we read together was The Intimate Enemy, which taught us how to fight without fighting. With good will from both of us we worked out a plan for me to work on my triggers and for him to really listen to what I was trying to say. It only took 3 sessions to get us on a healthy path. I changed my behaviour.
And I got a stereo in my car with music that I enjoy and feel like singing to. This lightened my mood while driving and I decided to wave at other drivers instead of shooting the finger. Instead of cursing, I taught myself to say, "Oh dude that was not cool!"
This just goes to show that there is hope if he acknowledges that he needs to change and does the work.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 2:21 PM on January 24 [27 favorites]
> Should you have kids together, they will be afraid of him (what's unsettling to an adult is terrifying to a small child).
I wanted to highlight this bit from Praemunire's comment because I have sooooooo much first hand experience with this.
I married a man who struggled with emotional regulation (among other things). He understood and acknowledged that he needs to regulate his emotions better. All through our 11 years of marriage he would promise to "try harder". Meanwhile I read all the books on how to deal with people like him, how to manage conflict within relationships, how to detox a marriage from anger, etc etc etc. It didn't work. So I left.
When I left he had a "come to jesus" moment... several of them. He was deeply staggered, it was an enormous wake-up call, he made HUGE efforts to change in those last couple of months, but it was too late, I left anyway. And even though his come-to-jesus moment was genuine and he was truly trying his best, he didn't succeed in changing his lifelong habits of how he handled his emotions. At the age of 44, he was deeply set in his ways and it would have taken years to undo his patterns even if he had gone to intensive therapy (which he didn't).
Now our children spend half their time with him. He keeps yelling at one of our kids, the one who (he has decided) is most like me. Every couple of months my kid comes crying to me, and I talk to my ex to work on the issue and also I tell my kid I fully support whatever decision the kid wants to make about custody (i.e. I'm fine with the kid staying with me full time and only seeing dad occasionally). I take the kid to therapy. I make sure the kid always knows I am a safe person to talk to, and our home is a safe place to be. No matter how hard I try, though, it's never going to erase the damage my ex is doing to our kid. The kid is scared of dad. The kid goes into ridiculous anxiety spirals over the smallest things at dad's house. It's heartbreaking for me to watch.
Before you write these responses off as "ridiculous", consider that many of us have literally been in your shoes, and done that exact partner. We speak from experience. Take our advice or leave it, that is your prerogative. But the advice you're getting here is the opposite of ridiculous.
posted by MiraK at 2:44 PM on January 24 [60 favorites]
I wanted to highlight this bit from Praemunire's comment because I have sooooooo much first hand experience with this.
I married a man who struggled with emotional regulation (among other things). He understood and acknowledged that he needs to regulate his emotions better. All through our 11 years of marriage he would promise to "try harder". Meanwhile I read all the books on how to deal with people like him, how to manage conflict within relationships, how to detox a marriage from anger, etc etc etc. It didn't work. So I left.
When I left he had a "come to jesus" moment... several of them. He was deeply staggered, it was an enormous wake-up call, he made HUGE efforts to change in those last couple of months, but it was too late, I left anyway. And even though his come-to-jesus moment was genuine and he was truly trying his best, he didn't succeed in changing his lifelong habits of how he handled his emotions. At the age of 44, he was deeply set in his ways and it would have taken years to undo his patterns even if he had gone to intensive therapy (which he didn't).
Now our children spend half their time with him. He keeps yelling at one of our kids, the one who (he has decided) is most like me. Every couple of months my kid comes crying to me, and I talk to my ex to work on the issue and also I tell my kid I fully support whatever decision the kid wants to make about custody (i.e. I'm fine with the kid staying with me full time and only seeing dad occasionally). I take the kid to therapy. I make sure the kid always knows I am a safe person to talk to, and our home is a safe place to be. No matter how hard I try, though, it's never going to erase the damage my ex is doing to our kid. The kid is scared of dad. The kid goes into ridiculous anxiety spirals over the smallest things at dad's house. It's heartbreaking for me to watch.
Before you write these responses off as "ridiculous", consider that many of us have literally been in your shoes, and done that exact partner. We speak from experience. Take our advice or leave it, that is your prerogative. But the advice you're getting here is the opposite of ridiculous.
posted by MiraK at 2:44 PM on January 24 [60 favorites]
I was raised by a parent who struggled with this and I struggle with it too. Becoming a parent entirely changed me because I wanted to break the chain of screaming. I need to take an antidepressant every day and go to therapy and model regulation constantly. When I get dysregulated I explain to my child what happened and what I did to calm down. If you don't trust this man to do the work on himself, don't marry him until he's ready to do the work.
posted by notjustthefish at 2:55 PM on January 24 [7 favorites]
posted by notjustthefish at 2:55 PM on January 24 [7 favorites]
From personal experience, I can tell you it’s no fun living your life walking on eggshells.
posted by elphaba at 2:59 PM on January 24 [12 favorites]
posted by elphaba at 2:59 PM on January 24 [12 favorites]
Dialectical Behavior Therapy addresses emotional regulation challenges—would he try The Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills Workbook? That said, he needs to do the work to really internalize those tools. I learned about DBT from a partner who sounds very similar, who had the workbook and did the exercises…and it never got better. I got tired of walking on eggshells. I left—living in fear is no way to live.
posted by sugarbomb at 3:36 PM on January 24 [1 favorite]
posted by sugarbomb at 3:36 PM on January 24 [1 favorite]
Please go back and re-read what MiraK replied. It is the truest thing you will read about this. I lived with someone like this and never will again.
posted by ficbot at 3:48 PM on January 24 [14 favorites]
posted by ficbot at 3:48 PM on January 24 [14 favorites]
I want to just explain that emotional regulation is not the problem here.
I've dealt with a number of different men with emotional regulation challenges. One of them would get angry at me. The others got angry at other people. The one who got angry at me turned out to be abusive and I wound up having to divorce him several years later. The other ones, you know, it was a balancing act.
The issue isn't him regulating his emotions, it's that he regularly has so much anger at you. Why? That's what needs to be addressed or dealt with before you move in.
posted by corb at 4:10 PM on January 24 [11 favorites]
I've dealt with a number of different men with emotional regulation challenges. One of them would get angry at me. The others got angry at other people. The one who got angry at me turned out to be abusive and I wound up having to divorce him several years later. The other ones, you know, it was a balancing act.
The issue isn't him regulating his emotions, it's that he regularly has so much anger at you. Why? That's what needs to be addressed or dealt with before you move in.
posted by corb at 4:10 PM on January 24 [11 favorites]
Best answer: Gottman's research on "flooding" may be helpful: https://www.gottman.com/blog/making-sure-emotional-flooding-doesnt-capsize-your-relationship/
Another recommendation is to look into "non-violent communication:" https://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/learn-nonviolent-communication/4-part-nvc/
Lastly, some of the research on neurodivergence and emotional regulation may apply:
- https://www.kelly-mahler.com/resources/blog/modern-emotion-regulation-supports-for-neurodivergent-learners-are-you-keeping-with-the-times/
- https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/the-power-of-sensory-regulation
- https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/symptoms/25065-emotional-dysregulation
- https://medium.com/neurodiversified/adhd-autism-and-emotions-25984d5b01e2
Ideally, your partner would be doing some of this reading/research, too.
posted by sleepingwithcats at 4:23 PM on January 24 [6 favorites]
Another recommendation is to look into "non-violent communication:" https://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/learn-nonviolent-communication/4-part-nvc/
Lastly, some of the research on neurodivergence and emotional regulation may apply:
- https://www.kelly-mahler.com/resources/blog/modern-emotion-regulation-supports-for-neurodivergent-learners-are-you-keeping-with-the-times/
- https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/the-power-of-sensory-regulation
- https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/symptoms/25065-emotional-dysregulation
- https://medium.com/neurodiversified/adhd-autism-and-emotions-25984d5b01e2
Ideally, your partner would be doing some of this reading/research, too.
posted by sleepingwithcats at 4:23 PM on January 24 [6 favorites]
Ideally, your partner would be doing some of this reading/research, too
Ideally, your partner would pull up his big boy pants and stop spitting venom at the person he claims to love.
Ideally, this would happen after he'd been given one heads-up about the need to do so.
Ideally, nobody would ever marry a man who displays an aversion to wearing the big boy pants.
posted by flabdablet at 6:06 PM on January 24 [7 favorites]
Ideally, your partner would pull up his big boy pants and stop spitting venom at the person he claims to love.
Ideally, this would happen after he'd been given one heads-up about the need to do so.
Ideally, nobody would ever marry a man who displays an aversion to wearing the big boy pants.
posted by flabdablet at 6:06 PM on January 24 [7 favorites]
> Lastly, some of the research on neurodivergence and emotional regulation may apply:
Oh hell no, this does not "apply".
(1) No form of neurodivergence has "take your negative/angry feelings out on your intimate partner" as a symptom. FWIW in my marriage, my neurodivergence was turned into the excuse for my male partner to treat me badly because (he claimed) my neurodivergence was provoking him or upsetting him. But when men treat women badly, logic goes the other way, people crawl out of the woodwork saying "maybe he treats her badly because he's neurodivergent and he can't help himself." It's just misogyny either way.
(2) Corb is right: emotional regulation is a red herring in your post. You need to be talking about why your partner takes his anger out on you, not on why your partner can't regulate his feelings. Like, I bet he's not yelling at his boss on a daily basis the way he yells at you. He can regulate his emotions juuust fine when he wants to.
posted by MiraK at 7:21 PM on January 24 [22 favorites]
Oh hell no, this does not "apply".
(1) No form of neurodivergence has "take your negative/angry feelings out on your intimate partner" as a symptom. FWIW in my marriage, my neurodivergence was turned into the excuse for my male partner to treat me badly because (he claimed) my neurodivergence was provoking him or upsetting him. But when men treat women badly, logic goes the other way, people crawl out of the woodwork saying "maybe he treats her badly because he's neurodivergent and he can't help himself." It's just misogyny either way.
(2) Corb is right: emotional regulation is a red herring in your post. You need to be talking about why your partner takes his anger out on you, not on why your partner can't regulate his feelings. Like, I bet he's not yelling at his boss on a daily basis the way he yells at you. He can regulate his emotions juuust fine when he wants to.
posted by MiraK at 7:21 PM on January 24 [22 favorites]
So there’s a difference between wears your heart in your sleeve and abusive.
If he wears his heart in his sleeve - you can push back at the anger, or tell him straight up “I don’t have room for your anger right now can you vent somewhere else” and they should be able to take it. Similarly you should be able to express your anger just as openly and they should be able to handle this (that is, they pass the “can dish it out and take it” test).
Abusive people will lose their minds if you push back or walk away.
Just something to keep in mind as a litmus test for what kind of person he is. Your comfort with emotions and expression is a different topic.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:23 PM on January 24 [5 favorites]
If he wears his heart in his sleeve - you can push back at the anger, or tell him straight up “I don’t have room for your anger right now can you vent somewhere else” and they should be able to take it. Similarly you should be able to express your anger just as openly and they should be able to handle this (that is, they pass the “can dish it out and take it” test).
Abusive people will lose their minds if you push back or walk away.
Just something to keep in mind as a litmus test for what kind of person he is. Your comfort with emotions and expression is a different topic.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:23 PM on January 24 [5 favorites]
I am baffled in general about what to do when people get hurt and start to get illogical.
in an aggressive and scary and habitual way? this is an easy one because it does not take thought, only resolve. what to do: you leave the scene. you turn around and walk away, and if you are close enough to them to know this happens frequently, you know approximately how long you need to stay gone or locked in your room.
what do you do if you can't exit immediately because it's happening in a car and he's driving? well, you simply do not ever put yourself in such a powerless position again, knowing this is likely. you do not consent to be a passive passenger of his. you drive, or you don't share a car. that way, if it starts happening, you pull over and either get out or order him out.
what do you do if you can't exit because you're both inside somewhere and he's blocking the door and won't let you pass? well, you call for help if there is help to call for. otherwise, you put your hands over your ears and sit down on the floor with your eyes closed, concentrating on how great it is that he isn't violent, and wait until your captor winds down and chooses to release you.
when you are not willing to leave for real, for good, forever, your choices are to yell back, to cower in silence, or to go away and hide. these are degrading choices, in my opinion, and no way to live, but these are the choices available to you in such moments. if by "what to do" you mean what to do in the moment that will make them stop and be rational again sooner than they would on their own, you can't. there isn't a way.
people who seem to be better than you at handling aggressive, irrational people, aren't really. they aren't more skilled at talking out-of-control people back into their right minds. they are simply less willing to form and maintain relationships with people like that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:43 PM on January 24 [16 favorites]
in an aggressive and scary and habitual way? this is an easy one because it does not take thought, only resolve. what to do: you leave the scene. you turn around and walk away, and if you are close enough to them to know this happens frequently, you know approximately how long you need to stay gone or locked in your room.
what do you do if you can't exit immediately because it's happening in a car and he's driving? well, you simply do not ever put yourself in such a powerless position again, knowing this is likely. you do not consent to be a passive passenger of his. you drive, or you don't share a car. that way, if it starts happening, you pull over and either get out or order him out.
what do you do if you can't exit because you're both inside somewhere and he's blocking the door and won't let you pass? well, you call for help if there is help to call for. otherwise, you put your hands over your ears and sit down on the floor with your eyes closed, concentrating on how great it is that he isn't violent, and wait until your captor winds down and chooses to release you.
when you are not willing to leave for real, for good, forever, your choices are to yell back, to cower in silence, or to go away and hide. these are degrading choices, in my opinion, and no way to live, but these are the choices available to you in such moments. if by "what to do" you mean what to do in the moment that will make them stop and be rational again sooner than they would on their own, you can't. there isn't a way.
people who seem to be better than you at handling aggressive, irrational people, aren't really. they aren't more skilled at talking out-of-control people back into their right minds. they are simply less willing to form and maintain relationships with people like that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:43 PM on January 24 [16 favorites]
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) might be something you two can try. It's not going to come out and advertise itself as "a salve for (insert specific interpersonal issue here)," but since it sounds like you're both aware of therapy and on the same page about this particular set of nested issues it might be really helpful!
I've gone through this workbook several times over the last 6 years (I'm partway through my third cover-to-cover practice of it, which I can pretty cleanly fit into twoish months). I recommend it to a lot of people because I came to therapy (what feels to me like) later in life and it... resonated. A lot. My first time working through it, along with simulatenously reading A Liberated Mind, is what I point back to as my "Eureka!" moment, and I was 38/39 at the time. I'm in my early 40s now and I can say with confidence that the concepts and practiced this workbook introduced me to are still echoing in my daily approach to life, in therapy, in relationships, in general. I think it would be amazing to do in tandem with a partner, if for nothing else than to have a shared vocabulary and framework for talking about these issues and exploring them in a way that's focused on how you both live your shared lives (rather than following an urge to diagnose or catastrophize or otherwise run away from problems you'd like to try to resolve before giving up on).
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:05 AM on January 25 [3 favorites]
I've gone through this workbook several times over the last 6 years (I'm partway through my third cover-to-cover practice of it, which I can pretty cleanly fit into twoish months). I recommend it to a lot of people because I came to therapy (what feels to me like) later in life and it... resonated. A lot. My first time working through it, along with simulatenously reading A Liberated Mind, is what I point back to as my "Eureka!" moment, and I was 38/39 at the time. I'm in my early 40s now and I can say with confidence that the concepts and practiced this workbook introduced me to are still echoing in my daily approach to life, in therapy, in relationships, in general. I think it would be amazing to do in tandem with a partner, if for nothing else than to have a shared vocabulary and framework for talking about these issues and exploring them in a way that's focused on how you both live your shared lives (rather than following an urge to diagnose or catastrophize or otherwise run away from problems you'd like to try to resolve before giving up on).
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:05 AM on January 25 [3 favorites]
Hi there! I think reading is a fine idea, but I don't think you need any one book or one approach. Several would be better. I haven't noticed Mira Kirshenbaum's book Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay, yet in these comments and I think you should add that to your reading list. When I worked in a bookstore, I used to routinely find piles of relationship books stacked up where someone with this type of dilemma had clearly come for research and comfort, had come and gone under the radar, and I always wished that person the best as I reshelved the books.
But I think you should read far and wide, and also do individual therapy if possible-- not couples. It's about perspective. A lot of us have been conditioned-- by our families, by society-- to situate a problem like this in ourselves and not with the partner who is acting out. I mean obviously we can only control our own reactions and we can't force the other person to act differently. But getting entrenched in the idea that you are the one who needs to be fixed is something a lot of us are familiar with due to very powerful, long-term conditioning. I think the more points of view you expose yourself to, you'll see more of the commonalities. And then, you can leave your partner, you can stay, but at least you won't be blaming yourself for everything that happens.
posted by BibiRose at 5:13 AM on January 25 [5 favorites]
But I think you should read far and wide, and also do individual therapy if possible-- not couples. It's about perspective. A lot of us have been conditioned-- by our families, by society-- to situate a problem like this in ourselves and not with the partner who is acting out. I mean obviously we can only control our own reactions and we can't force the other person to act differently. But getting entrenched in the idea that you are the one who needs to be fixed is something a lot of us are familiar with due to very powerful, long-term conditioning. I think the more points of view you expose yourself to, you'll see more of the commonalities. And then, you can leave your partner, you can stay, but at least you won't be blaming yourself for everything that happens.
posted by BibiRose at 5:13 AM on January 25 [5 favorites]
I notice you say that you're in therapy. Is your fiance in therapy, or would he consider it? You say that he's said he wants to work on this; maybe that's a good way for him to actually start.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:24 AM on January 25 [4 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:24 AM on January 25 [4 favorites]
Best answer: https://www.amazon.ca/Dialectical-Behavior-Therapy-Skills-Workbook/product-reviews/1626250219
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:04 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:04 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
I know you've said you've stopped reading, but I'll add my voice to the pile that says please leave. I married this man. I did not think it was a big deal because he didn't take his anger out on me, he was just angry. He has never hit or used physical violence but I have finally realized after 13 years that I dread being around him. I don't know what will trigger a bad mood. I don't know if this silly comment will make him laugh or ruin the entire day. I stopped doing things I enjoyed because they annoyed him. I stopped talking about my day because he was frustrated with his work and wanted to focus on that. I stopped giving my opinion on things ranging from what painter to use to repaint the house to what I wanted for dinner because I never know if my opinion will be met with derision or anger.
We are in couples therapy (Gottman Method) because I talked to divorce lawyers after years of asking him to change or at least find ways to not take that shit out on me. This morning he just got angry with me on the way out the door because we don't spend enough time together (I had a call with a friend last night that I took in the bedroom so I didn't disturb him while he watched tv.) Therapy is helping, but he has never, not once, said that his temper and inability to manage his emotions is a bad thing.
I was socialized to think that it was my job to make sure the people around me were happy and to mitigate their negative emotions. I did it for my parents and repeated partners. If I'd had the individual therapy 13 years ago to realize that this caretaking and emotional work was something that would wear away my soul and was very much not healthy, I would not have married this man. As it is, I'm trying to figure out a way to be the person that I need to be without hurting him and without any expectation of change. That may mean divorce, but whatever it means, I refuse to walk on eggshells in my own home any more.
Don't be me. End this before it begins.
posted by teleri025 at 9:21 AM on January 25 [20 favorites]
We are in couples therapy (Gottman Method) because I talked to divorce lawyers after years of asking him to change or at least find ways to not take that shit out on me. This morning he just got angry with me on the way out the door because we don't spend enough time together (I had a call with a friend last night that I took in the bedroom so I didn't disturb him while he watched tv.) Therapy is helping, but he has never, not once, said that his temper and inability to manage his emotions is a bad thing.
I was socialized to think that it was my job to make sure the people around me were happy and to mitigate their negative emotions. I did it for my parents and repeated partners. If I'd had the individual therapy 13 years ago to realize that this caretaking and emotional work was something that would wear away my soul and was very much not healthy, I would not have married this man. As it is, I'm trying to figure out a way to be the person that I need to be without hurting him and without any expectation of change. That may mean divorce, but whatever it means, I refuse to walk on eggshells in my own home any more.
Don't be me. End this before it begins.
posted by teleri025 at 9:21 AM on January 25 [20 favorites]
Best answer: Thanks for those that have given me constructive information. Shutting this down as it's getting ridiculous.
Yeah, ironically you're getting the same high emotional energy here as you'd be getting with your fiance. And very appropriately you've stepped back.
In case you do peek back in I'd like to hail back to the very first comment and echo pursuing active listening between the two of you when things start to get charged. Simply putting a ritual around communication can help people stay present.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:53 AM on January 25 [7 favorites]
Yeah, ironically you're getting the same high emotional energy here as you'd be getting with your fiance. And very appropriately you've stepped back.
In case you do peek back in I'd like to hail back to the very first comment and echo pursuing active listening between the two of you when things start to get charged. Simply putting a ritual around communication can help people stay present.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:53 AM on January 25 [7 favorites]
DBT is currently the gold standard for learning emotional regulation. It takes 6+ months, 3 hours a week, and is a lot of work for the participant. But that's the point: showing that commitment and putting in the time and work needed for real change. One of the things we emphasize is that the participant should be putting in way more work than their loved ones. My only opinion on your question is that you should not be the one putting in the most work on this.
posted by SamanthaK at 4:36 PM on January 25 [5 favorites]
posted by SamanthaK at 4:36 PM on January 25 [5 favorites]
You don't "deal with" a fiance with anger issues; you find a new fiance. Believe me, you won't be sorry you did. As bad as it seems now, it will get far worse once you're married and he has no reason to remain on good behavior.
posted by summerstorm at 4:50 PM on January 25 [6 favorites]
posted by summerstorm at 4:50 PM on January 25 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: I see many people have come in to drop lines -- I do very much appreciate it. I know everyone here has sincerely aimed to be helpful, and many of you have spent a good deal of time and energy typing out responses, even if to indicate that you're afraid on my behalf.
I thought I'd check-in as I figured out something that works for me which might help others in the future. I agree with everyone here, that I shouldn't be working hard to help him regulate his emotions (which for him are almost always based in a fear of rejection or that I think he "did something wrong") -- that's HIS job, but I was looking for a way to not get "pulled into" being upset if he is, and I think I figured out one without reading a book. :D
I've told him that if I feel my feelings rise in response to something he says (even if something he said is perfectly fine -- so he shouldn't take it as a sign he "did something wrong"), I will simply put my finger up to indicate I'm going to take time to regulate myself and respond in a way that is not emotional -- with emphasis on the idea that I'll take as much time as I need, without apologies.
Funnily, the couple of times this happened he also calmed down very quickly so that he can re-word his question or statement in a way that'll cut down the time I need to respond...so it seems to have the bonus of making him calm down in order to make more reasonable statements. If he wants me to help assuage his insecurities, he has to keep calm or know he'll have to wait for my response.
This seems to help him look at himself and his statements without me telling him to do so. So far, so good.
Thank you, everyone, again!
posted by BeatriceB at 9:07 AM on January 30 [5 favorites]
I thought I'd check-in as I figured out something that works for me which might help others in the future. I agree with everyone here, that I shouldn't be working hard to help him regulate his emotions (which for him are almost always based in a fear of rejection or that I think he "did something wrong") -- that's HIS job, but I was looking for a way to not get "pulled into" being upset if he is, and I think I figured out one without reading a book. :D
I've told him that if I feel my feelings rise in response to something he says (even if something he said is perfectly fine -- so he shouldn't take it as a sign he "did something wrong"), I will simply put my finger up to indicate I'm going to take time to regulate myself and respond in a way that is not emotional -- with emphasis on the idea that I'll take as much time as I need, without apologies.
Funnily, the couple of times this happened he also calmed down very quickly so that he can re-word his question or statement in a way that'll cut down the time I need to respond...so it seems to have the bonus of making him calm down in order to make more reasonable statements. If he wants me to help assuage his insecurities, he has to keep calm or know he'll have to wait for my response.
This seems to help him look at himself and his statements without me telling him to do so. So far, so good.
Thank you, everyone, again!
posted by BeatriceB at 9:07 AM on January 30 [5 favorites]
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I would suggest looking for resources around "active listening" which it sounds like you both might benefit from.
posted by brookeb at 12:48 PM on January 24 [4 favorites]