How (whether?) to repair friendships after recent strain
August 31, 2023 6:28 PM Subscribe
My friend is losing her housing as a result of a sudden breakup which stirred some pretty strong feelings in me, in part due to some personal baggage of my own related to housing. My strong feelings then led to some fairly serious strain on a couple of other friendships, even causing me to briefly consider ending those friendships completely. Now that my initial emotional reaction has calmed down over time, I’ve decided that I almost certainly want to continue both of those friendships, so I’m looking for advice on how to begin repairing them.
I’ll attempt to give some relatively brief background on the situation: it involves 3 friends of mine, who I'll refer to as H, M, and A. All three are women and approximately 30 years old. To keep things brief, here’s a rough timeline of events leading up to the breakup I mentioned above:
• A little less than a year ago, H lost her job (H is still unemployed now, and also very likely has depression which is going untreated due to lack of money/insurance, which is not helping at all with her job search)
• H moved in with her parents not long after losing her job, but then got kicked out after a while (I won’t waste space going into the specifics of why they kicked her out, but basically it’s because her parents are assholes)
• After leaving her parents’ house, H began couch surfing and fortunately was able to find temporary places to stay with other friends
• During this couch surfing phase, H met M and they eventually started dating
• M, who lives with her parents, was eventually able to convince them to let H move into their house so that she would have somewhere a bit more stable to stay
• A few months after H moved in with M, M met my other friend A and eventually they started dating as well. H and M had always been non-monogamous from the beginning of their relationship, so this was not cheating at all and in fact H and A had already been friends for a while prior to this new relationship
• A little over a week ago, A broke up with a different partner she had from a separate non-monogamous relationship (not M), meaning that A would have to move out of her current housing since it was her ex’s apartment (this wouldn’t have been a huge hardship for A since she has non-asshole family in the area who she could have lived with temporarily while looking for more permanent housing)
• Two days after A broke up with her other partner, M broke up with H. A also began moving in with M on the same day as the breakup or maybe the day after (I’m not 100% sure)
I learned about the breakup a couple hours after it happened through a message from H. I was deeply shocked by the news because M had given no signs that she was unsatisfied with the relationship, especially not to the point of ending it. H seemed to be very surprised by it too.
I’m not particularly concerned about the breakup in and of itself, though, since it wasn’t my relationship after all. What does concern me quite deeply though is that H is now losing her housing as a result of the breakup because M’s parents had a rule that H could only live in their house as long as M was in a relationship with her (M seems to have already been aware of this rule when she initiated the breakup). Therefore as a result of the breakup H had about 2 weeks to find new housing and move out, all while having no job, minimal savings left, and living in an expensive area with low housing supply.
This is where the personal baggage that I mentioned at the very beginning of this post becomes relevant. A few years ago I was long-term unemployed and very depressed, much like H is now. I ended up pretty much completely running out of savings and getting a notice on my apartment door warning me that I would be evicted in a week if I didn’t pay my rent. (Content warning for mention of contemplating suicide in this sentence) In the hours after finding that notice on my door I came closer to committing suicide than at any other point in my life, although fortunately I didn’t do that and instead my parents were able to bail me out of that situation.
When I learned about H losing her housing as a result of the breakup, I was immediately reminded of my own brief experience with the possibility of losing my housing. Even though the specifics of our situations are very different, there are some broad similarities: unemployment, depression, lack of money, and facing the loss of housing in a short period of time. Those similarities were enough to make me terrified that if H’s reaction was similar to mine a few years ago, then this could turn into an incredibly dangerous and potentially deadly situation for her.
In addition to being afraid and worried about H, I was also disappointed and at first even somewhat angry with M and to a lesser extent A. From my perspective (and with my personal baggage), I saw the abrupt way in which M broke up with H as dangerously reckless: pushing someone who was already in a vulnerable situation into an even worse, potentially deadly one. In addition, the fact that A is effectively replacing H in M’s house by moving in almost immediately seemed very opportunistic on A’s part, especially considering how her own breakup just 2 days earlier had made her available to live with M, and made me think less of her as a person at first.
Overall I would say that I lost a lot of respect for both of them in the immediate aftermath of the breakup, and I more or less told them that in a series of blunt and rather harsh discussions I had with them last week. I even went as far as to say that I wasn’t entirely sure if I could continue being friends with either of them, which was an honest expression of how I felt at the time but in retrospect I should have kept that to myself until my initial emotional reaction to the news had more time to wear off. Those conversations didn’t end too badly though, as I eventually apologized for some of my more unnecessarily hostile comments and both M and A said that they understood and respected that my reaction was motivated by concern for H’s safety and well being.
Now that it’s been about a week since the breakup, my perspective on the situation has changed quite a bit. H is not doing well by any means, but there’s no signs that she’s in any immediate danger as I initially feared might happen, and she’s even managed to find a couple of possible places where she can stay in the near future, so I’m feeling cautiously optimistic that she’s not at any serious risk of being completely unhoused. I’m also starting to reconsider the intensity and negativity of my interactions with M and A last week. I don’t think (or at least don’t want to believe) that there was anything truly malicious motivating any of M or A’s actions, though I still do think there was some poor and perhaps impulsive decision making involved. Nonetheless because my history with them is otherwise very positive, I want to give them both another chance and try to repair my friendships with them.
Finally, that brings me to my questions. I guess my first question is whether I actually should try to repair these friendships. Obviously I’ve already come pretty close to deciding my answer to that question is yes for both M and A, but if anyone here thinks otherwise I’d be interested in hearing that (and why). Assuming that the answer to the first question is yes, my second and most important question is how exactly should I go about repairing these friendships? That’s not something I’ve ever needed/wanted to do before, so if anyone has advice on good ways to approach that process then I’d appreciate it because I’m pretty clueless about what to do.
There’s also a few smaller/more specific questions I have in relation to that second question. I haven’t spoken too much to either M or A since last week and not at all for the past few days, so when should I try to start talking to them again about making up for last week’s tensions? Or perhaps should I wait and hope that they eventually contact me first? Also, on a related note, any tips on how I should bring up my desire to restore our friendships once we start talking again? Should I even explicitly mention that at all, or should I just gradually start talking to them more regularly and hope that the relationships are repaired through that kind of casual positive interaction?
Sorry for the overwhelming length of this post and barrage of questions at the end and thanks for reading if you made it all the way down here.
(Actually one last thing! Given that H is the one in the most difficult situation here, it feels a bit odd that this question is mostly focused on my relationships with M and A. But please be aware that I'm definitely still staying in regular contact with H and offering her as much support as I can, both emotionally and in more material ways to the extent that I am capable of doing so.)
I’ll attempt to give some relatively brief background on the situation: it involves 3 friends of mine, who I'll refer to as H, M, and A. All three are women and approximately 30 years old. To keep things brief, here’s a rough timeline of events leading up to the breakup I mentioned above:
• A little less than a year ago, H lost her job (H is still unemployed now, and also very likely has depression which is going untreated due to lack of money/insurance, which is not helping at all with her job search)
• H moved in with her parents not long after losing her job, but then got kicked out after a while (I won’t waste space going into the specifics of why they kicked her out, but basically it’s because her parents are assholes)
• After leaving her parents’ house, H began couch surfing and fortunately was able to find temporary places to stay with other friends
• During this couch surfing phase, H met M and they eventually started dating
• M, who lives with her parents, was eventually able to convince them to let H move into their house so that she would have somewhere a bit more stable to stay
• A few months after H moved in with M, M met my other friend A and eventually they started dating as well. H and M had always been non-monogamous from the beginning of their relationship, so this was not cheating at all and in fact H and A had already been friends for a while prior to this new relationship
• A little over a week ago, A broke up with a different partner she had from a separate non-monogamous relationship (not M), meaning that A would have to move out of her current housing since it was her ex’s apartment (this wouldn’t have been a huge hardship for A since she has non-asshole family in the area who she could have lived with temporarily while looking for more permanent housing)
• Two days after A broke up with her other partner, M broke up with H. A also began moving in with M on the same day as the breakup or maybe the day after (I’m not 100% sure)
I learned about the breakup a couple hours after it happened through a message from H. I was deeply shocked by the news because M had given no signs that she was unsatisfied with the relationship, especially not to the point of ending it. H seemed to be very surprised by it too.
I’m not particularly concerned about the breakup in and of itself, though, since it wasn’t my relationship after all. What does concern me quite deeply though is that H is now losing her housing as a result of the breakup because M’s parents had a rule that H could only live in their house as long as M was in a relationship with her (M seems to have already been aware of this rule when she initiated the breakup). Therefore as a result of the breakup H had about 2 weeks to find new housing and move out, all while having no job, minimal savings left, and living in an expensive area with low housing supply.
This is where the personal baggage that I mentioned at the very beginning of this post becomes relevant. A few years ago I was long-term unemployed and very depressed, much like H is now. I ended up pretty much completely running out of savings and getting a notice on my apartment door warning me that I would be evicted in a week if I didn’t pay my rent. (Content warning for mention of contemplating suicide in this sentence) In the hours after finding that notice on my door I came closer to committing suicide than at any other point in my life, although fortunately I didn’t do that and instead my parents were able to bail me out of that situation.
When I learned about H losing her housing as a result of the breakup, I was immediately reminded of my own brief experience with the possibility of losing my housing. Even though the specifics of our situations are very different, there are some broad similarities: unemployment, depression, lack of money, and facing the loss of housing in a short period of time. Those similarities were enough to make me terrified that if H’s reaction was similar to mine a few years ago, then this could turn into an incredibly dangerous and potentially deadly situation for her.
In addition to being afraid and worried about H, I was also disappointed and at first even somewhat angry with M and to a lesser extent A. From my perspective (and with my personal baggage), I saw the abrupt way in which M broke up with H as dangerously reckless: pushing someone who was already in a vulnerable situation into an even worse, potentially deadly one. In addition, the fact that A is effectively replacing H in M’s house by moving in almost immediately seemed very opportunistic on A’s part, especially considering how her own breakup just 2 days earlier had made her available to live with M, and made me think less of her as a person at first.
Overall I would say that I lost a lot of respect for both of them in the immediate aftermath of the breakup, and I more or less told them that in a series of blunt and rather harsh discussions I had with them last week. I even went as far as to say that I wasn’t entirely sure if I could continue being friends with either of them, which was an honest expression of how I felt at the time but in retrospect I should have kept that to myself until my initial emotional reaction to the news had more time to wear off. Those conversations didn’t end too badly though, as I eventually apologized for some of my more unnecessarily hostile comments and both M and A said that they understood and respected that my reaction was motivated by concern for H’s safety and well being.
Now that it’s been about a week since the breakup, my perspective on the situation has changed quite a bit. H is not doing well by any means, but there’s no signs that she’s in any immediate danger as I initially feared might happen, and she’s even managed to find a couple of possible places where she can stay in the near future, so I’m feeling cautiously optimistic that she’s not at any serious risk of being completely unhoused. I’m also starting to reconsider the intensity and negativity of my interactions with M and A last week. I don’t think (or at least don’t want to believe) that there was anything truly malicious motivating any of M or A’s actions, though I still do think there was some poor and perhaps impulsive decision making involved. Nonetheless because my history with them is otherwise very positive, I want to give them both another chance and try to repair my friendships with them.
Finally, that brings me to my questions. I guess my first question is whether I actually should try to repair these friendships. Obviously I’ve already come pretty close to deciding my answer to that question is yes for both M and A, but if anyone here thinks otherwise I’d be interested in hearing that (and why). Assuming that the answer to the first question is yes, my second and most important question is how exactly should I go about repairing these friendships? That’s not something I’ve ever needed/wanted to do before, so if anyone has advice on good ways to approach that process then I’d appreciate it because I’m pretty clueless about what to do.
There’s also a few smaller/more specific questions I have in relation to that second question. I haven’t spoken too much to either M or A since last week and not at all for the past few days, so when should I try to start talking to them again about making up for last week’s tensions? Or perhaps should I wait and hope that they eventually contact me first? Also, on a related note, any tips on how I should bring up my desire to restore our friendships once we start talking again? Should I even explicitly mention that at all, or should I just gradually start talking to them more regularly and hope that the relationships are repaired through that kind of casual positive interaction?
Sorry for the overwhelming length of this post and barrage of questions at the end and thanks for reading if you made it all the way down here.
(Actually one last thing! Given that H is the one in the most difficult situation here, it feels a bit odd that this question is mostly focused on my relationships with M and A. But please be aware that I'm definitely still staying in regular contact with H and offering her as much support as I can, both emotionally and in more material ways to the extent that I am capable of doing so.)
You've already apologized, and "both M and A said that they understood and respected that my reaction was motivated by concern for H’s safety and well being." They have been getting A settled into her new digs this past week.
The most concerning thing is what you describe as your overwhelming reaction to these developments in H, M, & A's lives and H's resulting precarity. Maybe talk with a neutral party about any unresolved feelings around that rough, understandably scary spot in your past, before you bury them again.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:50 PM on August 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
The most concerning thing is what you describe as your overwhelming reaction to these developments in H, M, & A's lives and H's resulting precarity. Maybe talk with a neutral party about any unresolved feelings around that rough, understandably scary spot in your past, before you bury them again.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:50 PM on August 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Not seeing what you did so wrong here, your friend basically kicked girlfriend #1 to the curb as soon as girlfriend #2 needed to shack up. And it isn't even her house! Giving them a talking to might have put a little shame in them. Stick with the apologies you've given and that's that.
If you're out of your 20s, everything I said above but a hundredfold.
posted by kingdead at 7:23 PM on August 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
If you're out of your 20s, everything I said above but a hundredfold.
posted by kingdead at 7:23 PM on August 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
I am a little unclear from your post about what your relationship is to each of these individuals, which would help to say whether you should continue trying to be friends with them.
Honestly your reaction seems justified and I think they were being pretty irresponsible and callous towards H. Like, kind of objectively jerks towards her. You apologized for your harsher words and I don't think you owe them more than that. I'd just give it some time for everyone to work through their feelings some more, including yourself.
posted by knownfossils at 7:31 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Honestly your reaction seems justified and I think they were being pretty irresponsible and callous towards H. Like, kind of objectively jerks towards her. You apologized for your harsher words and I don't think you owe them more than that. I'd just give it some time for everyone to work through their feelings some more, including yourself.
posted by knownfossils at 7:31 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree that you giving them a piece of your mind is justified. And honestly, I might just keep your distance for a little while. It seems like H is the one who could really use a friend right now, and it’s not like you need to choose, but M&A are busy moving in and love-bubbling. I’d give it a few weeks and then just send a check-in text.
posted by lunasol at 8:08 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by lunasol at 8:08 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
What strikes me here is that the degree of your involvement doesn’t seem helpful. Ultimately, the people in the relationship have the final say on its parameters. I think some distance could do you good here, not to teach them a lesson, but to teach yourself one. Not a high drama break — just, give it a week or two more and see how you feel.
Questions to consider:
Given your worry for H, why was your instinct to confront A & M rather than to focus your efforts on practical help for H?
What outcome of the confrontation were you originally hoping for?
What can you do, separate from these friends, to resolve your own brush with unhousedness in your own mind so that the script does not take over in new situations?
posted by eirias at 8:39 PM on August 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
Questions to consider:
Given your worry for H, why was your instinct to confront A & M rather than to focus your efforts on practical help for H?
What outcome of the confrontation were you originally hoping for?
What can you do, separate from these friends, to resolve your own brush with unhousedness in your own mind so that the script does not take over in new situations?
posted by eirias at 8:39 PM on August 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
It is totally normal to have friendship fluctuations long term. I think for right now just let them do their own thing for a while, maybe about double the amount of time you would normally go without seeing each other (for example if you have a weekly hangout, don’t hang out for two weeks, or if you get together about once a month, plan to see each other in early November) not only to let you regain equilibrium but also to let them settle in and do whatever they need to adjust to their own life changes. Then, reach out to them with something low key.
If they seem open to listening, you could open up a bit about your previous experience that triggered your outburst towards them. Being vulnerable like that shows you trust them not to hurt you with that knowledge and can go a long way in repairing a friendship quickly. However, if they seem to just want to ignore and move on, just go with the flow for a while until you feel more secure in your friendships again. Then you can have a serious and vulnerable talk. Making new friends as adults is so difficult that if these people are otherwise kind and fun and good for you to be around, I think it’s definitely worth the effort to rebuild the friendships, and they probably will appreciate it too. (Especially if you are one of the few people they haven’t dated, as I’ve seen in lesbian poly communities over the years, to be quite frank.)
As for H I think it’s important for you to acknowledge that this is not your business. You can absolutely reach out to her and offer help if you have any way to do so, or just a listening ear, but if she is getting along okay for now and seems to have managed okay so far, you can’t let her actions or life affect yours in such a strong way. I’ve been on both sides of watching and being someone sinking into the depths by way of depression, so I know how hard that can be, but taking her burdens on your shoulders unasked does not lighten her load, it just doubles it in the world. If you can focus on building up your own resources and assets like community connections or knowledge of local bureaucracy systems, you can be in a better place to help others when they reach out to you.
posted by Mizu at 10:33 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
If they seem open to listening, you could open up a bit about your previous experience that triggered your outburst towards them. Being vulnerable like that shows you trust them not to hurt you with that knowledge and can go a long way in repairing a friendship quickly. However, if they seem to just want to ignore and move on, just go with the flow for a while until you feel more secure in your friendships again. Then you can have a serious and vulnerable talk. Making new friends as adults is so difficult that if these people are otherwise kind and fun and good for you to be around, I think it’s definitely worth the effort to rebuild the friendships, and they probably will appreciate it too. (Especially if you are one of the few people they haven’t dated, as I’ve seen in lesbian poly communities over the years, to be quite frank.)
As for H I think it’s important for you to acknowledge that this is not your business. You can absolutely reach out to her and offer help if you have any way to do so, or just a listening ear, but if she is getting along okay for now and seems to have managed okay so far, you can’t let her actions or life affect yours in such a strong way. I’ve been on both sides of watching and being someone sinking into the depths by way of depression, so I know how hard that can be, but taking her burdens on your shoulders unasked does not lighten her load, it just doubles it in the world. If you can focus on building up your own resources and assets like community connections or knowledge of local bureaucracy systems, you can be in a better place to help others when they reach out to you.
posted by Mizu at 10:33 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
...or should I just gradually start talking to them more regularly and hope that the relationships are repaired through that kind of casual positive interaction?
This one. I don't think anything truly irredeemable has happened yet. A and M sunk a bit in your esteem, because they acted in a way that makes them seem inconsiderate and opportunistic in your eyes, and you probably sunk a bit in their esteem, because they might be feeling you were overly judgmental. But in both cases one could easily see mitigating circumstances: You now see that the situation for H might not be as dire as you initially feared, and have no way of being aware of all the factors that were at play in the break-up, that might make the whole thing appear in a slightly less unflattering light (I agree it's a very bad look, but looks can be deceiving; you're just a third party here, you don't have all the info). And A and M in turn need to consider that your strong reaction can be easily explained by your personal history. They might feel that even if you might have judged them too harshly, and prematurly in this case, this is due to special circumstances, and you don't tend to judge people prematurely and too harshly in general. When sufficient time has passed in which they see no new evidence of you judging prematurely and harshly, and you see no new evidence of them being inconsiderate and opportunistic, all parties will likely chalk up this incident to a temporary lapse in judgment on either side, and esteem and friendship will be restored.
But for what it's worth, I'm not sure yet you actually judged them too harshly, and I would be watching out a bit for further evidence that opportunism and lack of consideration might be a bit of a pattern here. Maybe a bit of a cooling off period is not the worst thing that could happen to this friendship. I wouldn't rush trying to restore the relationship to its pre-incident status, although at this point I'd see a good chance that it will recover eventually. I'd give it some time and focus on H.
posted by sohalt at 11:20 PM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
This one. I don't think anything truly irredeemable has happened yet. A and M sunk a bit in your esteem, because they acted in a way that makes them seem inconsiderate and opportunistic in your eyes, and you probably sunk a bit in their esteem, because they might be feeling you were overly judgmental. But in both cases one could easily see mitigating circumstances: You now see that the situation for H might not be as dire as you initially feared, and have no way of being aware of all the factors that were at play in the break-up, that might make the whole thing appear in a slightly less unflattering light (I agree it's a very bad look, but looks can be deceiving; you're just a third party here, you don't have all the info). And A and M in turn need to consider that your strong reaction can be easily explained by your personal history. They might feel that even if you might have judged them too harshly, and prematurly in this case, this is due to special circumstances, and you don't tend to judge people prematurely and too harshly in general. When sufficient time has passed in which they see no new evidence of you judging prematurely and harshly, and you see no new evidence of them being inconsiderate and opportunistic, all parties will likely chalk up this incident to a temporary lapse in judgment on either side, and esteem and friendship will be restored.
But for what it's worth, I'm not sure yet you actually judged them too harshly, and I would be watching out a bit for further evidence that opportunism and lack of consideration might be a bit of a pattern here. Maybe a bit of a cooling off period is not the worst thing that could happen to this friendship. I wouldn't rush trying to restore the relationship to its pre-incident status, although at this point I'd see a good chance that it will recover eventually. I'd give it some time and focus on H.
posted by sohalt at 11:20 PM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can't see much downside and can see a lot of upside to a cooling off period. The only reason not to would be acting of a fear of losing the relationships, but if they are friendships worth having, taking time away shouldn't be an issue. Put another way, if they're people who would hold it against you to focus on H for a while, then they're not worth having as friends.
posted by lookoutbelow at 11:56 PM on August 31, 2023
posted by lookoutbelow at 11:56 PM on August 31, 2023
Why are you involved in all of this to the degree you are? Your friends have chosen very complex romantic relationships. They have also chosen to tie their housing situations to these complicated romantic relationships, recognizing that H was in a bad place and the set up may have been very appealing in the circumstances and that A also found herself in need of new housing after a breakup.
You've said your piece. You can now either resume low stakes contact to normalise the relationships or not.
If there any practical support you can provide to H that doesn't require immediate reciprocity, that may be a kindness.
posted by koahiatamadl at 12:48 AM on September 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
You've said your piece. You can now either resume low stakes contact to normalise the relationships or not.
If there any practical support you can provide to H that doesn't require immediate reciprocity, that may be a kindness.
posted by koahiatamadl at 12:48 AM on September 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
I would keep my distance from M and A until I felt sure that they were ashamed of what they did.
Even if H didn't harm herself from the situation, the blow of being broken up with, losing her housing and essentially being replaced by A will do no favours for her mental health. You're completely right, this is callous and irresponsible on M + A's part.
M's and A's decision to tie a foundational thing like housing to temporary/short relationships is also... a choice. A very irresponsible choice.
Based on everything you've described, I wouldn't want to be friends with M or A.
posted by wandering zinnia at 1:30 AM on September 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Even if H didn't harm herself from the situation, the blow of being broken up with, losing her housing and essentially being replaced by A will do no favours for her mental health. You're completely right, this is callous and irresponsible on M + A's part.
M's and A's decision to tie a foundational thing like housing to temporary/short relationships is also... a choice. A very irresponsible choice.
Based on everything you've described, I wouldn't want to be friends with M or A.
posted by wandering zinnia at 1:30 AM on September 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
We all have baggage that makes various things stand out - mine makes me say "wait, was H then stuck not just living at M's place until she could find a new one, but also stuck living both with M and A?" Like, not just heartbreak over breaking up, and not just stress about where to live, but extra heartbreak and stress about having to be around both your ex and your ex's girlfriend, who is kind of replacing you?
I dunno, you say their past record is a good one, and the older we get the harder it is to make more friends so existing ones are all the more precious. And we don't know what's going on behind the scenes - maybe given their internal dynamics it all makes sense. But still, these friends seem at best kind of self-centered and callous. You don't need to keep lecturing them (rarely works, anyway) but I also don't think there's much for you to apologize for. If anything, now they know you're someone who's willing to stand up for your friends when you feel they've been mistreated. Just keep low-key hanging out with them or being in touch with them or whatever, and see how things pan out from there. Maybe you can chalk what M and A did up to immaturity that will improve over time, or an aberration that's not characteristic of how they usually are. Or maybe this is (part of) who they are, alongside all the better stuff.
posted by trig at 1:52 AM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I dunno, you say their past record is a good one, and the older we get the harder it is to make more friends so existing ones are all the more precious. And we don't know what's going on behind the scenes - maybe given their internal dynamics it all makes sense. But still, these friends seem at best kind of self-centered and callous. You don't need to keep lecturing them (rarely works, anyway) but I also don't think there's much for you to apologize for. If anything, now they know you're someone who's willing to stand up for your friends when you feel they've been mistreated. Just keep low-key hanging out with them or being in touch with them or whatever, and see how things pan out from there. Maybe you can chalk what M and A did up to immaturity that will improve over time, or an aberration that's not characteristic of how they usually are. Or maybe this is (part of) who they are, alongside all the better stuff.
posted by trig at 1:52 AM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
How I would approach repairing these friendships:
I would reframe this not as M and A individually behaving particularly badly, but as M and A existing in a society where a lot of people are experimenting with non-monogamy without having a community of non-monogamy to take examples from or a lot of previous experience with dating, and bundling it along with a lot of really good intentions without practical considerations. Non-monogamy is great for those it works for, but it's kind of a "level-up" model of relationship - it's harder, it requires more communication and intentionality and taking more people into account.
So H started dating M while H was already couch surfing. Ordinarily, people dating would take some time before moving someone in to see if the relationship is going to work out, but it sounds like M is a kind person who didn't want to leave their friend and romantic partner in precarious housing, and so coaxed their parents into letting H stay. But that doesn't necessarily mean that H was a good romantic partner for M, or a good roommate for M and their parents. And that's going to be based on stuff you can't see. (The old Roman adage, of taking off the shoe and saying 'Where does it pinch me?' applies here). So just because you thought the relationship was going well doesn't mean the relationship was actually going well.
My suspicion, based on the facts above, is that the relationship between H and M, from M's side at least, had been cooling for some time (you say especially not to the point of ending it, but that's a personal choice for people), but M hadn't broken up with H specifically because of the housing issue, and because non-monogamy sometimes brings a temptation not to break up with partners that you're falling out of affection with, because breakups are hard and cause conflict, and just seeing people less doesn't, and you can still just date other people you're into and like better. My suspicion is that M is really into A, and really wants them to live with them, and realized that if they wanted that to happen, they needed to move now before A found another place. But you can't maintain a dynamic of having one partner you're really into and one partner you're not into who both live with you. That's not only a recipe for disaster, it would also just create massive self esteem problems for the less appreciated partner. And so I think that M realized that they needed to finally bite the bullet and break up with H, before A came to stay.
As far as the two weeks notice - honestly, the issue of how long to give romantic exes before you ask them to move out is a really fraught thing, complicated by as folks say landlord/tenant laws in various jurisdictions. Often the legal and moral rules are at odds. But I think that expecting people who have broken up to still live together is a relatively recent and particular hell of late stage capitalism that I have not enjoyed seeing the development of. When I was younger, it was reasonable to ask people to take a suitcase and get out that evening and come back for their things later. It was also easier to find employment that could pay for a cheap apartment back then and credit checks for housing did not exist. We do not now live in that world, and there are not great moral choices for the one we do now live in.
So I would have compassion for your friends M and A that have to live in it, who simply want to be able to make authentic romantic choices in line with their feelings without having to think about "is this going to unhouse someone". It is also a particular hell to stay in a relationship with someone out of obligation rather than affection, and I don't think it would have been a kindness to H either.
posted by corb at 4:08 AM on September 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
I would reframe this not as M and A individually behaving particularly badly, but as M and A existing in a society where a lot of people are experimenting with non-monogamy without having a community of non-monogamy to take examples from or a lot of previous experience with dating, and bundling it along with a lot of really good intentions without practical considerations. Non-monogamy is great for those it works for, but it's kind of a "level-up" model of relationship - it's harder, it requires more communication and intentionality and taking more people into account.
So H started dating M while H was already couch surfing. Ordinarily, people dating would take some time before moving someone in to see if the relationship is going to work out, but it sounds like M is a kind person who didn't want to leave their friend and romantic partner in precarious housing, and so coaxed their parents into letting H stay. But that doesn't necessarily mean that H was a good romantic partner for M, or a good roommate for M and their parents. And that's going to be based on stuff you can't see. (The old Roman adage, of taking off the shoe and saying 'Where does it pinch me?' applies here). So just because you thought the relationship was going well doesn't mean the relationship was actually going well.
My suspicion, based on the facts above, is that the relationship between H and M, from M's side at least, had been cooling for some time (you say especially not to the point of ending it, but that's a personal choice for people), but M hadn't broken up with H specifically because of the housing issue, and because non-monogamy sometimes brings a temptation not to break up with partners that you're falling out of affection with, because breakups are hard and cause conflict, and just seeing people less doesn't, and you can still just date other people you're into and like better. My suspicion is that M is really into A, and really wants them to live with them, and realized that if they wanted that to happen, they needed to move now before A found another place. But you can't maintain a dynamic of having one partner you're really into and one partner you're not into who both live with you. That's not only a recipe for disaster, it would also just create massive self esteem problems for the less appreciated partner. And so I think that M realized that they needed to finally bite the bullet and break up with H, before A came to stay.
As far as the two weeks notice - honestly, the issue of how long to give romantic exes before you ask them to move out is a really fraught thing, complicated by as folks say landlord/tenant laws in various jurisdictions. Often the legal and moral rules are at odds. But I think that expecting people who have broken up to still live together is a relatively recent and particular hell of late stage capitalism that I have not enjoyed seeing the development of. When I was younger, it was reasonable to ask people to take a suitcase and get out that evening and come back for their things later. It was also easier to find employment that could pay for a cheap apartment back then and credit checks for housing did not exist. We do not now live in that world, and there are not great moral choices for the one we do now live in.
So I would have compassion for your friends M and A that have to live in it, who simply want to be able to make authentic romantic choices in line with their feelings without having to think about "is this going to unhouse someone". It is also a particular hell to stay in a relationship with someone out of obligation rather than affection, and I don't think it would have been a kindness to H either.
posted by corb at 4:08 AM on September 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
Assuming that the answer to the first question is yes, my second and most important question is how exactly should I go about repairing these friendships?
What do you normally do with these friends? Do exactly that, and at the outset have a short and sweet "sorry again for how I reacted last week - it really had nothing to do with you and was entirely about my own past and I realize that now" - and assuming they accept that apology, go about doing what you do together normally. Friendships generally restore from low-stakes tiffs by returning to normal.
I don’t think (or at least don’t want to believe) that there was anything truly malicious motivating any of M or A’s actions, though I still do think there was some poor and perhaps impulsive decision making involved. Nonetheless because my history with them is otherwise very positive, I want to give them both another chance and try to repair my friendships with them.
I do think reflecting a little on this perspective will have a positive impact on your friendships going forward - because this actually had nothing to do with you and you inserted yourself into their business and, from my perspective - it is them giving you another chance and not them having to earn your friendship back with another chance. It would be good to explore why you still feel like an aggrieved party in this because, as mentioned, it had absolutely nothing to do with you.
posted by openhearted at 4:32 AM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
What do you normally do with these friends? Do exactly that, and at the outset have a short and sweet "sorry again for how I reacted last week - it really had nothing to do with you and was entirely about my own past and I realize that now" - and assuming they accept that apology, go about doing what you do together normally. Friendships generally restore from low-stakes tiffs by returning to normal.
I don’t think (or at least don’t want to believe) that there was anything truly malicious motivating any of M or A’s actions, though I still do think there was some poor and perhaps impulsive decision making involved. Nonetheless because my history with them is otherwise very positive, I want to give them both another chance and try to repair my friendships with them.
I do think reflecting a little on this perspective will have a positive impact on your friendships going forward - because this actually had nothing to do with you and you inserted yourself into their business and, from my perspective - it is them giving you another chance and not them having to earn your friendship back with another chance. It would be good to explore why you still feel like an aggrieved party in this because, as mentioned, it had absolutely nothing to do with you.
posted by openhearted at 4:32 AM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
It would be good to explore why you still feel like an aggrieved party in this because, as mentioned, it had absolutely nothing to do with you.
People are allowed to react negatively when they see their friends treating their other friends poorly.
To be honest, based purely on the info presented in this question, M in particular sounds thoughtless and immature and it would absolutely affect my respect for her to watch this situation play out.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:37 AM on September 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
People are allowed to react negatively when they see their friends treating their other friends poorly.
To be honest, based purely on the info presented in this question, M in particular sounds thoughtless and immature and it would absolutely affect my respect for her to watch this situation play out.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:37 AM on September 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
If you want to go back to your previous relationship with M and A, I'd bake them some cookies with a note saying "sorry for my reaction; it was based on my own stuff" and move on. They've already said they understand.
If you think you like M or A less because of this situation, then feel free to step back and come around to them when/if you feel up to it.
I think it's reasonable for M's parents to not want a whole mess of unrelated thirtysomethings living at their place. M probably should have not mentioned the breakup to them until H figured out new housing, but it's possible this was a reasonable strategy on M's part: H DID find temporary housing and given their depression, may have taken forever to do so if they weren't essentially kicked out by the parents.
(A should still have stayed with their parents for a while in any case, because everyone involved should take some solo time to mourn their various breakups and get their heads on straight, but A and M's poor personal choices don't affect you.)
posted by metasarah at 5:28 AM on September 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
If you think you like M or A less because of this situation, then feel free to step back and come around to them when/if you feel up to it.
I think it's reasonable for M's parents to not want a whole mess of unrelated thirtysomethings living at their place. M probably should have not mentioned the breakup to them until H figured out new housing, but it's possible this was a reasonable strategy on M's part: H DID find temporary housing and given their depression, may have taken forever to do so if they weren't essentially kicked out by the parents.
(A should still have stayed with their parents for a while in any case, because everyone involved should take some solo time to mourn their various breakups and get their heads on straight, but A and M's poor personal choices don't affect you.)
posted by metasarah at 5:28 AM on September 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Everything else aside: what I'm hearing is that you're having a trauma reaction to something that happened to you in the past that has been triggered by something adjacent to you currently. We don't normally get this deep into the comments before someone says this, but have you considered counseling? This is exactly the sort of thing is counseling is for: helping you reckon with what happened to you in the past and helping you engage healthily with people in your present, if you desire to.
posted by joycehealy at 7:13 AM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by joycehealy at 7:13 AM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Two phrases you might find helpful:
"No one falls in love faster than someone looking for a place to live"
And
"Not my circus, not my monkeys"
Yes, this is a crappy situation for H and you can tell her you're sorry this is happening to her, but ultimately this is not your circus to manage. I would definitely give the other two some space and decide if you want to continue to have a friendship with them. I know a fair number of folks like this, and my life improved considerably when I kept them and their drama at arms length.
posted by ananci at 7:18 AM on September 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
"No one falls in love faster than someone looking for a place to live"
And
"Not my circus, not my monkeys"
Yes, this is a crappy situation for H and you can tell her you're sorry this is happening to her, but ultimately this is not your circus to manage. I would definitely give the other two some space and decide if you want to continue to have a friendship with them. I know a fair number of folks like this, and my life improved considerably when I kept them and their drama at arms length.
posted by ananci at 7:18 AM on September 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
@pullyayup: In my province of Saskatchewan, and many Canadian provinces and US States, tenancy protections don't apply when the landlord lives in the same unit as the tenant. And it doesn't seem as if the friend was ever paying rent, so she was a guest of the home and guests can later be removed from the home. She would be entitled to some reasonable notice of rent termination (usually a month's notice) if she was paying rent, but there is no contract that the rental ombudsman would interfere with or adjudicate on. But if H was an nonpaying guest, the homeowner can declare that the guest needs to leave at any time simply by removing their property from the premises.
@ljm: I had a friend with depression. He eventually cut contact with my friend group as his life spiraled downwards. There wasn't much we could do for him. The problems that are appearing in your two friends don't appear to be your business and it would be alright to extricate yourself from the drama while M and H end up fixing their own lives. If your life is stable now and H and M aren't actively reaching out to you, have you considered putting in some time to join new hobbies or activities that allow you to make new friends.
posted by DetriusXii at 9:31 AM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
@ljm: I had a friend with depression. He eventually cut contact with my friend group as his life spiraled downwards. There wasn't much we could do for him. The problems that are appearing in your two friends don't appear to be your business and it would be alright to extricate yourself from the drama while M and H end up fixing their own lives. If your life is stable now and H and M aren't actively reaching out to you, have you considered putting in some time to join new hobbies or activities that allow you to make new friends.
posted by DetriusXii at 9:31 AM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think you are still having a trauma response, actually. This sounds like a bounce from an immediate PTSD like emotional response and now you are in a fawn response towards them. The length and amount of detail in this question, along with your feelings of shame for having spoken your mind all remind me of when I experience something like this. I think you should sit with your feelings and do nothing until you feel less emotional, including feelings of having not done the right thing. Get out of fawn and know what you really think before doing anything else.
posted by Bottlecap at 2:37 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 2:37 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
People are allowed to react negatively when they see their friends treating their other friends poorly.
Yes, but...well...corb put it in the kindest and most compassionate way above, and if you prefer that approach, stick to that comment. If we're talking brass tacks, H's apparent at least medium-term inability to maintain a job or housing is not the responsibility of M, someone who's only been dating H a few months, to manage, especially since M isn't even living in M's own place and doesn't control who gets to have a key. It's only out of M's (and M's parents'!) generosity that H was living at M's parents' house at all; certainly you wouldn't have blamed M for not putting H up if M hadn't offered (nor could you have blamed M's parents' for declining to house someone rent-free who was involved in a short-term relationship with their child). After months of rent-free living, two weeks to find a new place seems reasonable. (That is, finding a new place on two weeks' notice is tough, but it is not M's (or M's parents') job to take the burden of the failures of late capitalism on M's shoulders. H was not in such a vulnerable state as to be at imminent risk of death or severe injury when H moved out, nor was there some vulnerable third party affected.) Since there was no cheating or deception involved, it's hard to say anyone mistreated anyone under either society's standards or the private ethical commitments they made to each other.
In short, everybody needs to get out of everyone else's business and focus on securing employment and stable housing that does not depend on short-term relationships. One brief repeat apology at next meeting with these friends is all that's required. If they accept it, move on, but do consider working (in therapy?) on the strong emotional reaction you had, because it seems to have led you down a path of action you regret taking, and, while it's understandable that you had that reaction, I assume you'd rather not have that happen again. If you're going to continue hanging out with this crowd, you might also find it helpful to think about whether any principles, not just trauma, drove your reaction, because it's good to clarify your understanding of your own morality, and there's a real possibility you'll be making moral judgments with respect to this group again in the future.
In the meantime, I'm glad H has found at least some housing, and your ethical responsibility to your friend is to support them as much as you reasonably can.
posted by praemunire at 3:16 PM on September 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yes, but...well...corb put it in the kindest and most compassionate way above, and if you prefer that approach, stick to that comment. If we're talking brass tacks, H's apparent at least medium-term inability to maintain a job or housing is not the responsibility of M, someone who's only been dating H a few months, to manage, especially since M isn't even living in M's own place and doesn't control who gets to have a key. It's only out of M's (and M's parents'!) generosity that H was living at M's parents' house at all; certainly you wouldn't have blamed M for not putting H up if M hadn't offered (nor could you have blamed M's parents' for declining to house someone rent-free who was involved in a short-term relationship with their child). After months of rent-free living, two weeks to find a new place seems reasonable. (That is, finding a new place on two weeks' notice is tough, but it is not M's (or M's parents') job to take the burden of the failures of late capitalism on M's shoulders. H was not in such a vulnerable state as to be at imminent risk of death or severe injury when H moved out, nor was there some vulnerable third party affected.) Since there was no cheating or deception involved, it's hard to say anyone mistreated anyone under either society's standards or the private ethical commitments they made to each other.
In short, everybody needs to get out of everyone else's business and focus on securing employment and stable housing that does not depend on short-term relationships. One brief repeat apology at next meeting with these friends is all that's required. If they accept it, move on, but do consider working (in therapy?) on the strong emotional reaction you had, because it seems to have led you down a path of action you regret taking, and, while it's understandable that you had that reaction, I assume you'd rather not have that happen again. If you're going to continue hanging out with this crowd, you might also find it helpful to think about whether any principles, not just trauma, drove your reaction, because it's good to clarify your understanding of your own morality, and there's a real possibility you'll be making moral judgments with respect to this group again in the future.
In the meantime, I'm glad H has found at least some housing, and your ethical responsibility to your friend is to support them as much as you reasonably can.
posted by praemunire at 3:16 PM on September 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
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I understand that H might have moved out anyway, voluntarily, because it's no fun to live with an ex and their new partner, no matter the circumstances. But absolutely H should not have felt/been compelled to do so.
Anyway, that's what I'd be mad about, not the relationship drama. The heart wants what the heart wants, and that's fine, unless it's violating tenants' rights.
posted by pullayup at 6:43 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]