Friend's birthday miscommunication, or something deeper?
November 11, 2022 10:25 AM Subscribe
I had a great time with a friend, treating him to a birthday dinner one on one on Wednesday night. He mentioned that he might go axe throwing with his friends, with his friend making the reservation, so suggested I reach out to her to ask and join. However, when reaching out to the friend, she said he had already made the reservation and that there was always next time. I'm confused and feel a bit misled; is this my anxiety talking, or is something deeper going on?
I have had a few history instances with this friend, "William". After that last situation, he reached out to me, apologized, and we worked things out. I recalibrated expectations and things has been much better since then. We do enjoy some FWB, as well. He has been much less "ghosty". He doesn't really like big groups, and I believe he prefers his friend circles to not overlap.
On Wednesday, during our 1:1 birthday dinner, at one point, we talked about his other birthday plans. As mentioned in the summary, he suggested I reach out to "Gabby" and ask about joining, as she was the one coordinating the whole event. The axe throwing event would be tonight. He didn't seem instantly eager/energetic for me to come (although he's generally "lukewarm" about things, which I've gotten used to), but did suggest reaching out to Gabby, so there seemed to be no friction there.
When I reached out to Gabby to ask about tonight's event, she initially said that I was always welcome, and she would double check with William for the timing, but that she believed William already made the reservation. After she checked with William, Gabby reached back and said that William had made the reservation already and that there was always next time. She was very apologetic about it and admitted there seemed to be a miscommunication of some kind.
I felt very confused and triggered in terms of rejection/not good enough. I know the axe throwing place, I've been there for other events, and according to their website, they don't accept advance reservations for less than 5 people. William had said that only 3 people were going. Furthermore, I've been there for more-than-5-people events, and it's a super flexible system. They often let you come in and book a specific number, then everyone arrives and you pay individually, and then use one slot to axe throw, taking turns. Really no biggie. So, the way Gabby made it seem was that the reservation was already made, nothing could be done, but I know for a fact you can always call them and ask to add one more person, as long as the capacity isn't full (and with ~3 people that William mentioned, that wouldn't even come close to being a problem).
I'm perplexed—why would William say that Gabby made the reservation, when in actuality, he made the reservation? And if he did make the reservation after our birthday dinner, and he knew full well I wanted to go, why not add me then? I'm really confused, and honestly, this is taking me to a dark place in which I wonder if William just didn't want me to go for whatever reason—he felt embarrassed or felt I wasn't good enough, or whatever. Or, it really was genuinely some kind of mix up?
I acknowledge I have anxiety and trauma, but given the past history with William, something feels wrong here. I want outside perspectives. My gut instinct is telling me this was his way of "rejecting" me from that group, not wanting me to go, but I can't figure out why. However, this could also be my anxiety/trauma talking, so outside perspectives would help.
Thanks!
I have had a few history instances with this friend, "William". After that last situation, he reached out to me, apologized, and we worked things out. I recalibrated expectations and things has been much better since then. We do enjoy some FWB, as well. He has been much less "ghosty". He doesn't really like big groups, and I believe he prefers his friend circles to not overlap.
On Wednesday, during our 1:1 birthday dinner, at one point, we talked about his other birthday plans. As mentioned in the summary, he suggested I reach out to "Gabby" and ask about joining, as she was the one coordinating the whole event. The axe throwing event would be tonight. He didn't seem instantly eager/energetic for me to come (although he's generally "lukewarm" about things, which I've gotten used to), but did suggest reaching out to Gabby, so there seemed to be no friction there.
When I reached out to Gabby to ask about tonight's event, she initially said that I was always welcome, and she would double check with William for the timing, but that she believed William already made the reservation. After she checked with William, Gabby reached back and said that William had made the reservation already and that there was always next time. She was very apologetic about it and admitted there seemed to be a miscommunication of some kind.
I felt very confused and triggered in terms of rejection/not good enough. I know the axe throwing place, I've been there for other events, and according to their website, they don't accept advance reservations for less than 5 people. William had said that only 3 people were going. Furthermore, I've been there for more-than-5-people events, and it's a super flexible system. They often let you come in and book a specific number, then everyone arrives and you pay individually, and then use one slot to axe throw, taking turns. Really no biggie. So, the way Gabby made it seem was that the reservation was already made, nothing could be done, but I know for a fact you can always call them and ask to add one more person, as long as the capacity isn't full (and with ~3 people that William mentioned, that wouldn't even come close to being a problem).
I'm perplexed—why would William say that Gabby made the reservation, when in actuality, he made the reservation? And if he did make the reservation after our birthday dinner, and he knew full well I wanted to go, why not add me then? I'm really confused, and honestly, this is taking me to a dark place in which I wonder if William just didn't want me to go for whatever reason—he felt embarrassed or felt I wasn't good enough, or whatever. Or, it really was genuinely some kind of mix up?
I acknowledge I have anxiety and trauma, but given the past history with William, something feels wrong here. I want outside perspectives. My gut instinct is telling me this was his way of "rejecting" me from that group, not wanting me to go, but I can't figure out why. However, this could also be my anxiety/trauma talking, so outside perspectives would help.
Thanks!
I think this should be less about his reasons for doing it in this particular instance, and more about him doing this consistently, for a few years now according to your posting history. His behaviors do not make you feel good, and he doesn't seem to be amending them, so I think you should consider not continuing this friendship.
posted by greta simone at 10:41 AM on November 11, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by greta simone at 10:41 AM on November 11, 2022 [26 favorites]
Text William, say "hey! I'm down for axe throwing if it's still happening, Gabby says you're in charge of the res. Let me know!" and then let it rest.
We can't read William's mind, neither can you. Throw this back on him and see what he has to say. If he replies with anything other than the exact time and date for you to meet up, he doesn't want you there, period, and you can put your energy into finding nicer friends.
posted by phunniemee at 10:41 AM on November 11, 2022 [22 favorites]
We can't read William's mind, neither can you. Throw this back on him and see what he has to say. If he replies with anything other than the exact time and date for you to meet up, he doesn't want you there, period, and you can put your energy into finding nicer friends.
posted by phunniemee at 10:41 AM on November 11, 2022 [22 favorites]
You already know that he doesn't like to overlap his friend groups, so I'm not sure why you're surprised this played out the way it did.
posted by cakelite at 10:44 AM on November 11, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 10:44 AM on November 11, 2022 [20 favorites]
Oh, you're FWB? Maybe I'm coming at this from a girl-guy perspective but this does sound like a "hit it and quit it" situation--he's interested in you sexually but not as someone he's willing to make an effort to integrate into his friend group. Unless he's blowing your mind, it's not close to worth it.
posted by kingdead at 10:44 AM on November 11, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 10:44 AM on November 11, 2022 [18 favorites]
I have social anxiety too, so I know this is easier said then done, but try to put this question aside as much as you can. I can think of a lot of different explanations for why things turned out the way they did, positive, neutral and negative explanations. The truth is though, even if it were for a negative reason, it's not a big enough deal to address it and that would likely only make it worse.
Maybe do something nice on your own or with one reliable friend, it always helps me to fill up my life with other things I'm interested in when I'm trying not to focus on this kind of thing.
Once you've gotten yourself some distance and feel less invested, it will be much easier to judge how much time and energy, if any, you want to give to William.
posted by Eyelash at 10:48 AM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Maybe do something nice on your own or with one reliable friend, it always helps me to fill up my life with other things I'm interested in when I'm trying not to focus on this kind of thing.
Once you've gotten yourself some distance and feel less invested, it will be much easier to judge how much time and energy, if any, you want to give to William.
posted by Eyelash at 10:48 AM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: In your shoes I think I'd come away with the message that *someone* in that group would rather I not attend. Maybe William, maybe not. And maybe it's not personal at all - maybe one of the other people has social anxiety or really wanted to do a special small-group thing, or it's about his more general desire to keep his social groups separate, or whatever. Hell, maybe the axe place has some stricter rules now that they haven't updated their website with yet. Who knows? But the end result is this got handled really awkwardly, you're feeling left out, and it sucks. I wouldn't try to make it work last-minute, I think you're just going to feel weird about it the whole time, and who needs that?
Make some other fun plans for yourself for tonight. Spend less energy on this guy. I think maybe stop letting him get into a position to let you down at all, for a while. If you enjoy seeing him, then invite him to things you're going to do anyway, so if he flakes out it's no big deal and you can just carry on with the thing you were already going to do. He's shown you repeatedly who he is, and that's not someone you can or should build plans around. If he adds something to your life on those terms, fine, but keep it at that level.
posted by Stacey at 10:52 AM on November 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Make some other fun plans for yourself for tonight. Spend less energy on this guy. I think maybe stop letting him get into a position to let you down at all, for a while. If you enjoy seeing him, then invite him to things you're going to do anyway, so if he flakes out it's no big deal and you can just carry on with the thing you were already going to do. He's shown you repeatedly who he is, and that's not someone you can or should build plans around. If he adds something to your life on those terms, fine, but keep it at that level.
posted by Stacey at 10:52 AM on November 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Best answer: I am sure it is is hurtful but it sounds pretty clear that he did not want you to come, for whatever reason. He handled the situation poorly.
But more broadly, it sounds like you consistently don't feel good about the way he treats you and he causes you stress. It seems that this is a relationship you should discontinue.
posted by fies at 10:54 AM on November 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
But more broadly, it sounds like you consistently don't feel good about the way he treats you and he causes you stress. It seems that this is a relationship you should discontinue.
posted by fies at 10:54 AM on November 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Rarely did my previous FWB situations ever want me to mix with their actual friends. In hindsight, we were not friends. We were fuck buddies, and I was delusional and optimistic to my detriment. I wish I had been able to see things for what they were. I was being treated poorly, and accepted the behaviour, thus perpetuating unnecessary pain.
posted by Juniper Toast at 10:57 AM on November 11, 2022 [34 favorites]
posted by Juniper Toast at 10:57 AM on November 11, 2022 [34 favorites]
Best answer: After reading your other posts, I think I was too generous about William's motives. I agree with others that he's not reliable and that you'll be better of not treating him like he is.
posted by Eyelash at 10:59 AM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Eyelash at 10:59 AM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: this does sound like a "hit it and quit it" situation--he's interested in you sexually but not as someone he's willing to make an effort to integrate into his friend group.
Rarely did my previous FWB situations ever want me to mix with their actual friends. In hindsight, we were not friends. We were fuck buddies
I feel like we have a deeper friendship than just fuck buddies. We've had numerous deep conversations, and he's spilled his feelings to me about other various situations he had going on. When I shared on my Instagram story photos or videos of us doing stuff as friends, he almost always shared them. Also, our "FWB" activities aren't very often; it's always accompanied with a dinner or other gathering, it's not like we just get together and have fun. I could be wrong, but I don't know.
You already know that he doesn't like to overlap his friend groups, so I'm not sure why you're surprised this played out the way it did.
I was surprised because he suggested I contact Gabby to ask about going—it really did seem like he didn't mind I go. If he didn't want me to go, he should have said something gently like "Aw I wish you could join us, but the reservation is full already" or something like that, rather than stringing me along? That's what I'd do. And, anyway, I can't figure out why he wouldn't want me to go, especially as we had a really nice birthday dinner, and he knows I'm socially anxious and have those traumas/triggers related to rejection. I'd have thought he knows better.
His behaviors do not make you feel good, and he doesn't seem to be amending them, so I think you should consider not continuing this friendship.
It's hard because he can be very supportive and warm, and he really does have a smart mind and a good heart (although I tend to look the best in people, sometimes I might be a bit naive, something I know I need to work on). Cutting him off IS an option, but it doesn't feel good, either—and the last time I felt hurt and put down by him was early 2021, which is almost two years ago.
I dunno, I'm just confused.
posted by dubious_dude at 11:10 AM on November 11, 2022
Rarely did my previous FWB situations ever want me to mix with their actual friends. In hindsight, we were not friends. We were fuck buddies
I feel like we have a deeper friendship than just fuck buddies. We've had numerous deep conversations, and he's spilled his feelings to me about other various situations he had going on. When I shared on my Instagram story photos or videos of us doing stuff as friends, he almost always shared them. Also, our "FWB" activities aren't very often; it's always accompanied with a dinner or other gathering, it's not like we just get together and have fun. I could be wrong, but I don't know.
You already know that he doesn't like to overlap his friend groups, so I'm not sure why you're surprised this played out the way it did.
I was surprised because he suggested I contact Gabby to ask about going—it really did seem like he didn't mind I go. If he didn't want me to go, he should have said something gently like "Aw I wish you could join us, but the reservation is full already" or something like that, rather than stringing me along? That's what I'd do. And, anyway, I can't figure out why he wouldn't want me to go, especially as we had a really nice birthday dinner, and he knows I'm socially anxious and have those traumas/triggers related to rejection. I'd have thought he knows better.
His behaviors do not make you feel good, and he doesn't seem to be amending them, so I think you should consider not continuing this friendship.
It's hard because he can be very supportive and warm, and he really does have a smart mind and a good heart (although I tend to look the best in people, sometimes I might be a bit naive, something I know I need to work on). Cutting him off IS an option, but it doesn't feel good, either—and the last time I felt hurt and put down by him was early 2021, which is almost two years ago.
I dunno, I'm just confused.
posted by dubious_dude at 11:10 AM on November 11, 2022
Best answer: I would say that regardless of the specifics of this particular situation, this relationship is repeatedly taking a toll on your emotional health and almost certainly will continue to do so in the future. In particular, the imbalance in regard, availability, and power does not bode well.
If I were you, I would seek friendships/relationships elsewhere.
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:19 AM on November 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
If I were you, I would seek friendships/relationships elsewhere.
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:19 AM on November 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Best answer: I've seen this in a few of your questions, and I want to highlight it for you. You often seem to make your emotional responses - which you acknowledge are often heightened! - other people's issues, and then blame them for your response. It's come up in at least this question and your first question about William. When you say:
Beyond that, though, I really don't know what we could say that hasn't been said in your previous questions about William. He's just... not able to be a good friend to you, and you're hurting yourself by running in circles trying to psychoanalyze him.
posted by sagc at 11:20 AM on November 11, 2022 [57 favorites]
" And, anyway, I can't figure out why he wouldn't want me to go, especially as we had a really nice birthday dinner, and he knows I'm socially anxious and have those traumas/triggers related to rejection. I'd have thought he knows better."You're not leaving him with an out, really. You can't use the fact that you find rejection traumatic to demand that you not be rejected.
Beyond that, though, I really don't know what we could say that hasn't been said in your previous questions about William. He's just... not able to be a good friend to you, and you're hurting yourself by running in circles trying to psychoanalyze him.
posted by sagc at 11:20 AM on November 11, 2022 [57 favorites]
A person doesn't have to be a Grade A Asshole evil demon for you to cut them off. You should only surround yourself with people who uplift you and don't make you feel this way. It doesn't mean he's a horrible person, it just means you aren't compatible.
posted by greta simone at 11:20 AM on November 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by greta simone at 11:20 AM on November 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Best answer: If he didn't want me to go, he should have said something gently…rather than stringing me along?
Agree, but he doesn’t have the social IQ to do that. He probably felt weird and like he had to invite you on the spot, then later regretted it. He wasn’t thinking it through, he was acting in the moment.
it really did seem like he didn't mind I go.
Do you want someone who doesn’t mind that you go, or wants you there?
He’s treating you like crap. I’m sorry.
posted by sillysally at 11:26 AM on November 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
Agree, but he doesn’t have the social IQ to do that. He probably felt weird and like he had to invite you on the spot, then later regretted it. He wasn’t thinking it through, he was acting in the moment.
it really did seem like he didn't mind I go.
Do you want someone who doesn’t mind that you go, or wants you there?
He’s treating you like crap. I’m sorry.
posted by sillysally at 11:26 AM on November 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
Best answer: the last time I felt hurt and put down by him was early 2021, which is almost two years ago
Sounds to me like William is a poopshake.
posted by phunniemee at 12:00 PM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Sounds to me like William is a poopshake.
posted by phunniemee at 12:00 PM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
I would not assume that Gabby was a willing or competent event coordinator, or that anyone knows what you know about how reservations work at the axe place.
I do agree that William doesn't come off well here.
posted by mersen at 12:06 PM on November 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I do agree that William doesn't come off well here.
posted by mersen at 12:06 PM on November 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sometimes when people have deep meaningful conversations with us, that doesn’t mean they’re our friends, it means they’re wiping their emotional ass on us, they see us as a disposable tissue.
There’s a hard set of conversations that are generally not given a lot of space on websites for the mainstream, but the long and the short of it is that there are subsets of the population—those of us who are multiply marginalised often fall into these subsets—that are just not going to do as well socially. And our lives will be lonelier and harder because of that. The fault and blame are not our own. At a certain point, I chose the approach to give up trying to have a happy social life. I’ve got a tiny handful of friends, and I don’t go out seeking more. I don’t subject myself to the pain of putting myself out there, and the benefit is enormous, giving me far more space and time to do things that are meaningful to me, whether creative pursuits or helping others.
Not being easily friendable also reduces my survival outcomes, and I’ve undertaken the philosophical and spiritual process that enables me to face this fact with fewer nightmares, rage and pain spikes, etc, and to regain the capacity to finish a long poem, read an intricate series of books, help someone in need.
One day social disability will be seen as real by our culture and we will have steps to mitigate its devastating effects. The advice in this thread is excellent but without taking into account the political analysis like mine, the advice can come across as blaming the person asking the question. It is understandable that you so bravely, thoughtfully fight SO hard to be treated well. If at a certain point you give up and, like me, approach life with the plan of minimising dice rolls rather than maximising chances, there is no moral freight to making that choice.
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 12:09 PM on November 11, 2022 [18 favorites]
There’s a hard set of conversations that are generally not given a lot of space on websites for the mainstream, but the long and the short of it is that there are subsets of the population—those of us who are multiply marginalised often fall into these subsets—that are just not going to do as well socially. And our lives will be lonelier and harder because of that. The fault and blame are not our own. At a certain point, I chose the approach to give up trying to have a happy social life. I’ve got a tiny handful of friends, and I don’t go out seeking more. I don’t subject myself to the pain of putting myself out there, and the benefit is enormous, giving me far more space and time to do things that are meaningful to me, whether creative pursuits or helping others.
Not being easily friendable also reduces my survival outcomes, and I’ve undertaken the philosophical and spiritual process that enables me to face this fact with fewer nightmares, rage and pain spikes, etc, and to regain the capacity to finish a long poem, read an intricate series of books, help someone in need.
One day social disability will be seen as real by our culture and we will have steps to mitigate its devastating effects. The advice in this thread is excellent but without taking into account the political analysis like mine, the advice can come across as blaming the person asking the question. It is understandable that you so bravely, thoughtfully fight SO hard to be treated well. If at a certain point you give up and, like me, approach life with the plan of minimising dice rolls rather than maximising chances, there is no moral freight to making that choice.
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 12:09 PM on November 11, 2022 [18 favorites]
Best answer: I’m also very happy to write to you if you have any questions or would like to vent to someone who’s been there! You’re really great and you deserve a life where your access needs are met!
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 12:12 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 12:12 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
FWB arrangements are often prone to feelings getting hurt. He is inadequately considerate of your feelings. I don't see this working without major changes.
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 12:14 PM on November 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 12:14 PM on November 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
The frequency of the FWB sexy times doesn't really matter. A little of that is mostly the same as a lot when it comes to twisting relationships, feelings and outlooks. See also the aforementioned poopshake.
posted by fruitslinger at 12:17 PM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by fruitslinger at 12:17 PM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
So, based on your username and his nickname, I'm going to assume that both of you are male. How out is he? If everyone knows he is interested in male types, that's one issue. But another might be closeting, and having a male he's intimate with in a group he's not out to would be a risk
posted by Jacen at 12:21 PM on November 11, 2022
posted by Jacen at 12:21 PM on November 11, 2022
He didn't seem instantly eager/energetic for me to come
There's your answer. If he wasn't eager to invite you, then it would have been best to not outright ask for an invitation as it meant essentially putting him on the spot. It's not easy to right out say, sorry I'd rather not invite you along.
And, anyway, I can't figure out why he wouldn't want me to go, especially as we had a really nice birthday dinner
And it looks like you were not ready to accept a "no"?
but I know for a fact you can always call them and ask to add one more person
The reason this is confusing is that they used an excuse instead of bluntly telling you to your face that you are just not invited. Would you honestly have preferred that? It wouldn't have been a pleasant conversation and based on what you wrote above you might have pushed back (he had no real reason not to want you there, etc).
I feel for you but you know what? Facing rejection might sometimes be frankly liberating. You are free to stop auditioning for other people's approval. A soft no can mean you just moving on and taking care of yourself.
Do something fun for yourself tonight. Hugs.
posted by M. at 12:24 PM on November 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
There's your answer. If he wasn't eager to invite you, then it would have been best to not outright ask for an invitation as it meant essentially putting him on the spot. It's not easy to right out say, sorry I'd rather not invite you along.
And, anyway, I can't figure out why he wouldn't want me to go, especially as we had a really nice birthday dinner
And it looks like you were not ready to accept a "no"?
but I know for a fact you can always call them and ask to add one more person
The reason this is confusing is that they used an excuse instead of bluntly telling you to your face that you are just not invited. Would you honestly have preferred that? It wouldn't have been a pleasant conversation and based on what you wrote above you might have pushed back (he had no real reason not to want you there, etc).
I feel for you but you know what? Facing rejection might sometimes be frankly liberating. You are free to stop auditioning for other people's approval. A soft no can mean you just moving on and taking care of yourself.
Do something fun for yourself tonight. Hugs.
posted by M. at 12:24 PM on November 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Best answer: I feel like we have a deeper friendship than just fuck buddies.
Yeah, I thought that, too.
He played me like a cheap fiddle.
You deserve better.
We've had numerous deep conversations, and he's spilled his feelings to me about other various situations he had going on
Same here.
You deserve better.
He's just... not able to be a good friend to you, and you're hurting yourself by running in circles trying to psychoanalyze him.
Yes. The psychoanalyzing is damaging. I still do it. Don't do it yourself.
posted by jgirl at 12:24 PM on November 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I thought that, too.
He played me like a cheap fiddle.
You deserve better.
We've had numerous deep conversations, and he's spilled his feelings to me about other various situations he had going on
Same here.
You deserve better.
He's just... not able to be a good friend to you, and you're hurting yourself by running in circles trying to psychoanalyze him.
Yes. The psychoanalyzing is damaging. I still do it. Don't do it yourself.
posted by jgirl at 12:24 PM on November 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
Best answer: (I encourage you to read my following response as an add-on to what sagc wrote above)
I was surprised because he suggested I contact Gabby to ask about going
Another way to read this is that he foisted the work of telling you "no" onto Gabby.
If he didn't want me to go, he should have said something gently
Yeah, that would've been the more considerate and adult way to do it, but he didn't do it. Would you be able to accept that about him?
he knows I'm socially anxious and have those traumas/triggers related to rejection. I'd have thought he knows better.
Yeah, keeping that in mind and acting on it would've been much more thoughtful and empathetic towards you, but he didn't do that. Would you be able to accept that about him?
My gut instinct is telling me this was his way of "rejecting" me from that group, not wanting me to go, but I can't figure out why.
It very well may be, or it may be some way of maintaining an interpersonal distance that is comfortable for him but clearly not comfortable for you. Were that the case, would you be able to accept that about him?
And if you were never able to figure out "why," would you be able to accept that about yourself?
I dunno, I'm just confused.
It's a painful position to be in, and that sense of confusion-bordering-on-bewilderment is consistent throughout most, if not all, of your other human relations asks. The confusion may have something to do with your wish to predict and control how others think, feel, and act towards you. Part of you knows better than to act on that wish, but it seems to come out anyway and then you get fixated on understanding why, or figuring out how to change the way you present your feelings to the other so that they can change their thoughts/feelings/behavior towards you.
But it's worth reminding ourselves that we can only at best influence others, not control them, and even then not every person in our lives can be meaningfully influenced. William seems like such a person; hence all the responses you get -- on previous asks too -- telling you to move on from him. And hence my questions to you, all framed as whether you can accept William, and your relationship with him, as they are now, not as you wish for them to be. Because without the capacity to accept, you'll continue doing what you've been doing so far (see: sagc's answer), and getting more or less the results you've been getting so far.
FWIW I have the distinct impression that something is being repeated here that has to do with your relationship with your mom, and I hope you'll focus on working through that in therapy.
posted by obliterati at 12:28 PM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
I was surprised because he suggested I contact Gabby to ask about going
Another way to read this is that he foisted the work of telling you "no" onto Gabby.
If he didn't want me to go, he should have said something gently
Yeah, that would've been the more considerate and adult way to do it, but he didn't do it. Would you be able to accept that about him?
he knows I'm socially anxious and have those traumas/triggers related to rejection. I'd have thought he knows better.
Yeah, keeping that in mind and acting on it would've been much more thoughtful and empathetic towards you, but he didn't do that. Would you be able to accept that about him?
My gut instinct is telling me this was his way of "rejecting" me from that group, not wanting me to go, but I can't figure out why.
It very well may be, or it may be some way of maintaining an interpersonal distance that is comfortable for him but clearly not comfortable for you. Were that the case, would you be able to accept that about him?
And if you were never able to figure out "why," would you be able to accept that about yourself?
I dunno, I'm just confused.
It's a painful position to be in, and that sense of confusion-bordering-on-bewilderment is consistent throughout most, if not all, of your other human relations asks. The confusion may have something to do with your wish to predict and control how others think, feel, and act towards you. Part of you knows better than to act on that wish, but it seems to come out anyway and then you get fixated on understanding why, or figuring out how to change the way you present your feelings to the other so that they can change their thoughts/feelings/behavior towards you.
But it's worth reminding ourselves that we can only at best influence others, not control them, and even then not every person in our lives can be meaningfully influenced. William seems like such a person; hence all the responses you get -- on previous asks too -- telling you to move on from him. And hence my questions to you, all framed as whether you can accept William, and your relationship with him, as they are now, not as you wish for them to be. Because without the capacity to accept, you'll continue doing what you've been doing so far (see: sagc's answer), and getting more or less the results you've been getting so far.
FWIW I have the distinct impression that something is being repeated here that has to do with your relationship with your mom, and I hope you'll focus on working through that in therapy.
posted by obliterati at 12:28 PM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I will add that when people use you as a sounding board, it creates a sense of false intimacy. I thought I was a deeply trusted confidante, when in reality, I was cheaper than therapy.
posted by Juniper Toast at 12:39 PM on November 11, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by Juniper Toast at 12:39 PM on November 11, 2022 [28 favorites]
Sometimes people having deep conversations is actually a sign that they don’t want to be better friends- they might prefer to put up a more “functional” front for their friends who they look up to a bit, and only show the “dysfunctional” parts of themselves to people they keep sidelined from that group. Or once they’ve shared a lot of intimacy they get uncomfortable and pull back bc they’re embarrassed that someone else knows that part of them.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:00 PM on November 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:00 PM on November 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
This is another instance where your question centres on wanting to control your friend's behaviours (to get him to invite you to axe-throwing) which you said you would work on. It's been 6 months since that question, and it does not seem like you have made progress on this issue.
posted by saturdaymornings at 1:38 PM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by saturdaymornings at 1:38 PM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: He didn’t want to say no so he punted to Gabby knowing that she would.
I feel like we have a deeper friendship than just fuck buddies.
Maybe you do but it sounds like this is making you spiral, and it sounds like that’s happened before. I suggest looking for someone who consistently makes you feel good about yourself. What would that be like? Wouldn’t that be an improvement?
Also, you have options in between your current situation and completely cutting him off.
posted by kat518 at 1:45 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I feel like we have a deeper friendship than just fuck buddies.
Maybe you do but it sounds like this is making you spiral, and it sounds like that’s happened before. I suggest looking for someone who consistently makes you feel good about yourself. What would that be like? Wouldn’t that be an improvement?
Also, you have options in between your current situation and completely cutting him off.
posted by kat518 at 1:45 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: It's so hard to say, but if William wanted you there, he'd have thought of you when making the initial reservation. If it slipped his mind, he'd have texted/called the axe place or Gabby on the spot and had you added instead of punting it to you to talk to Gabby. You shouldn't have to do footwork to score an invite.
There was a TikTok sound a few months back that went something like, If you weren't invited, don't attend. If nobody told you, don't ask, and if you're invited last minute politely decline because you were never part of the original plan.
If he fills a FWB need for you by scratching an itch that needs scratching, then keep him around. But if you are never part of his original plans, those benefits are coming without the friendship part, so act accordingly in return.
posted by kimberussell at 2:02 PM on November 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
There was a TikTok sound a few months back that went something like, If you weren't invited, don't attend. If nobody told you, don't ask, and if you're invited last minute politely decline because you were never part of the original plan.
If he fills a FWB need for you by scratching an itch that needs scratching, then keep him around. But if you are never part of his original plans, those benefits are coming without the friendship part, so act accordingly in return.
posted by kimberussell at 2:02 PM on November 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
Best answer: If he didn't want me to go, he should have said something gently like "Aw I wish you could join us, but the reservation is full already" or something like that, rather than stringing me along? That's what I'd do.
Right, or just not bring it up in the first place, unless you brought it up in the first place? "Hey, what else are you doing for your birthday?" Which might've sounded like "can I come along to whatever else you're doing, since tonight was fun?" Or maybe he brought it up himself and then realized you'd naturally think he was inviting you. Whereupon he immediately kneejerk starts to feel smothered, panics, and tries to fling a particularly onerous social task he should do himself off on Gabby. If I were you I might get a tad chillier toward him but continue to put up with him, since he can be fun.
If I were Gabby, though, I would have dropped him like a hot rock the instant he shoved a chore that proceeded directly out of his own clumsy bullshit on me, especially after I went to the trouble of scheduling his whole crappity axe-throwing party. Triple bonus points if you stay acquaintances with William but get to be bosom chums with Gabby. I bet anything she's irritated and would appreciate somebody to bond with over mutual complaints about William about now.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:13 PM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Right, or just not bring it up in the first place, unless you brought it up in the first place? "Hey, what else are you doing for your birthday?" Which might've sounded like "can I come along to whatever else you're doing, since tonight was fun?" Or maybe he brought it up himself and then realized you'd naturally think he was inviting you. Whereupon he immediately kneejerk starts to feel smothered, panics, and tries to fling a particularly onerous social task he should do himself off on Gabby. If I were you I might get a tad chillier toward him but continue to put up with him, since he can be fun.
If I were Gabby, though, I would have dropped him like a hot rock the instant he shoved a chore that proceeded directly out of his own clumsy bullshit on me, especially after I went to the trouble of scheduling his whole crappity axe-throwing party. Triple bonus points if you stay acquaintances with William but get to be bosom chums with Gabby. I bet anything she's irritated and would appreciate somebody to bond with over mutual complaints about William about now.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:13 PM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Have you looked into attachment styles and how they relate to relationships? It seems to me from this situation and previous ones you've described that you may have an anxious attachment style (like me). People with anxious attachment are usually attracted to avoidant and unavailable people. This is probably a combination of not believing we're fully worthy of love, so we accept what we believe we are worthy of, and also repeated patterns from early attachment wounds with emotionally unavailable caregivers.
If I'm incorrect, I apologize. If it resonates, you may want to look at some resources on attachment. It can be a really tough pattern to break, but after a while it is possible to accept the treatment you deserve and become more attracted to available and nice people, and less attracted to unavailable people who don't treat you very well!
posted by bearette at 4:18 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
If I'm incorrect, I apologize. If it resonates, you may want to look at some resources on attachment. It can be a really tough pattern to break, but after a while it is possible to accept the treatment you deserve and become more attracted to available and nice people, and less attracted to unavailable people who don't treat you very well!
posted by bearette at 4:18 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I once lived in a really small community where everyone knew each other (not totally, but almost. It was really small). And one of the things I loved was that there was just an unspoken social norm there that I'd never come across before - there was no expectation that just because I was friends with Fred, I would like all of Fred's friends. Or that they'll all like me. In a place where everybody could be friends with everybody else (because we all lived so close to each other and knew each other), it was totally OK - necessary, even - to sometimes erect quiet boundaries between different friendships, and everybody respected those boundaries without drawing attention to them.
Fred tells me he's hanging out with Julie tomorrow? Well, he's never invited me along when he's seeing Julie, so that's a relationship that I'm not invited to insert myself into. Cool, I'm glad he's seeing her though, because he always really enjoys her company. Fred's seeing Jamie tomorrow? He knows I don't like how Jamie always gets really drunk, so neither of us expect that I'll join them, but neither of us needs to examine why. He's seeing Patricia? I just don't quite get Patricia. I don't even know why, we just don't quite ever find things to talk about, but that's fine, I saw Fred at the weekend with some of our mutual friends and we had a good time, I don't have to be with him tomorrow as well.
It sounds odd, but I just found it so incredibly respectful. It quietly acknowledged that not everybody is the same and not everyone gets on in the same way, and that's not because people are bad, or unkind, or hate each other, it's just because people are different.
It's like... people are different shapes and they fit together differently. Some people don't quite fit together right - they just don't tessellate. And when they don't tessellate, you don't force them, it's not a problem to be solved, it's just the way we all are - a little different and complex and not interchangeable squares that can always all tesselate with everybody else.
Anyway. Maybe, just because humans aren't clones, the group that's going out tomorrow is one that you don't tessellate with. Maybe when they're together they like behaving or conversing in a way that's just not your way. Maybe they've been longing to meet up in that particular grouping for weeks. Maybe, for reasons William couldn't articulate, you fit great onto one side of him, but you're just a different shape to the rest of those particular friends and he knows you wouldn't all fit together smoothly. It's not a value judgement. We're just all different.
Spending a few years living like that has been so invaluable for me when it comes to not taking this kind of stuff personally. Being able to shrug and say "I'm sure they have their reasons for doing that without me, I can't go to everything," is kind of a super power. I don't know how to bestow it on you, especially if you're feeling a little lonely and in need of as much company as you can get.
But it just doesn't have to mean they dislike you or are rejecting you. That particular group of people just happened to not have a you-shaped hole in it, because you're the unique person that is you, and not a bland, uniform square that would fit anywhere.
posted by penguin pie at 4:25 PM on November 11, 2022 [35 favorites]
Fred tells me he's hanging out with Julie tomorrow? Well, he's never invited me along when he's seeing Julie, so that's a relationship that I'm not invited to insert myself into. Cool, I'm glad he's seeing her though, because he always really enjoys her company. Fred's seeing Jamie tomorrow? He knows I don't like how Jamie always gets really drunk, so neither of us expect that I'll join them, but neither of us needs to examine why. He's seeing Patricia? I just don't quite get Patricia. I don't even know why, we just don't quite ever find things to talk about, but that's fine, I saw Fred at the weekend with some of our mutual friends and we had a good time, I don't have to be with him tomorrow as well.
It sounds odd, but I just found it so incredibly respectful. It quietly acknowledged that not everybody is the same and not everyone gets on in the same way, and that's not because people are bad, or unkind, or hate each other, it's just because people are different.
It's like... people are different shapes and they fit together differently. Some people don't quite fit together right - they just don't tessellate. And when they don't tessellate, you don't force them, it's not a problem to be solved, it's just the way we all are - a little different and complex and not interchangeable squares that can always all tesselate with everybody else.
Anyway. Maybe, just because humans aren't clones, the group that's going out tomorrow is one that you don't tessellate with. Maybe when they're together they like behaving or conversing in a way that's just not your way. Maybe they've been longing to meet up in that particular grouping for weeks. Maybe, for reasons William couldn't articulate, you fit great onto one side of him, but you're just a different shape to the rest of those particular friends and he knows you wouldn't all fit together smoothly. It's not a value judgement. We're just all different.
Spending a few years living like that has been so invaluable for me when it comes to not taking this kind of stuff personally. Being able to shrug and say "I'm sure they have their reasons for doing that without me, I can't go to everything," is kind of a super power. I don't know how to bestow it on you, especially if you're feeling a little lonely and in need of as much company as you can get.
But it just doesn't have to mean they dislike you or are rejecting you. That particular group of people just happened to not have a you-shaped hole in it, because you're the unique person that is you, and not a bland, uniform square that would fit anywhere.
posted by penguin pie at 4:25 PM on November 11, 2022 [35 favorites]
There are people who I like, or have had deep conversations with, or whatever, who I don't necessarily want at my small birthday party. For any number of reasons. It's not a verdict on their humanity, or our friendship, or anything like that.
posted by attentionplease at 7:34 PM on November 11, 2022
posted by attentionplease at 7:34 PM on November 11, 2022
Response by poster: Whew. Been digesting and processing all the responses. Last followup, promise—don't want to veer into threadsitting territory, but did want to respond to some of your responses.
Sounds to me like William is a poopshake.
Hahahaha! I actually laughed out aloud at that description. Very apt!
That particular group of people just happened to not have a you-shaped hole in it, because you're the unique person that is you, and not a bland, uniform square that would fit anywhere.
That explanation really helped reframe a lot for me.
Right, or just not bring it up in the first place, unless you brought it up in the first place?
William mentioned about a month or so that he was thinking about doing an axe throwing event for his birthday, and that he wanted me and his other friends to go. During our dinner, I brought it up, because I don't have Facebook, so figured he might have forgotten to invite me on text (he can be very forgetful sometimes; he even encouraged me to remind him about stuff if necessary), and that led to the already-explained situation in the summary/original Ask.
It seems to me from this situation and previous ones you've described that you may have an anxious attachment style
Yes, this was brought up in another Ask. Definitely anxious attachment style for me.
This is another instance where your question centres on wanting to control your friend's behaviours ... It's been 6 months since that question, and it does not seem like you have made progress on this issue.
I did not intend to control William's behavior. I was simply wishing him to be more honest, than punt things over to Gabby. For example, if he told me this: "I would really love for you to come, but the truth is, this group I'm going with is a group that feeds off each other in unique ways, and I don't want you to feel left out. I hope you understand that, but I really enjoyed dinner with you tonight!" then I would admittedly feel a bit hurt/rejected initially, but I would understand eventually and come around to see where he was coming from, and I'd have appreciated his honesty than him potentially lying to me, punting things over to Gabby, or giving a sloppy noncommittal answer. I just want someone I can trust, and who can be genuine, even if it means it's something I might not like initially. Does that make sense? I also wish he could have been considerate of my traumas with rejection (which were shared with him in the past) and either been honest in a very kind way that I wasn't invited, or decided that I was welcome to the party, rather than lying or delegating to someone else. It sucks sometimes not being part of a crowd, but I'd prefer to know that upfront than have to find out in a roundabout way, like today.
I will add that when people use you as a sounding board, it creates a sense of false intimacy. I thought I was a deeply trusted confidante, when in reality, I was cheaper than therapy.
Interesting perspective. William and I definitely had a lot of bidirectional conversations — we both would share our issues and problems. But, yes, on the nose of it, does make sense.
Yeah, keeping that in mind and acting on it would've been much more thoughtful and empathetic towards you, but he didn't do that. Would you be able to accept that about him?
Sucks, but yes. I would. I can't change or control him.
He’s treating you like crap. I’m sorry.
He is. Might or might not be intentional — don't know, don't want to analyze.
Moving forward, I need to decide what to do. I don't want (or am not ready yet) to drop him like a hot potato, but the cycle of hurt feelings need to stop. Maybe slow fading would be the best solution. Maybe talking to him about how confused I was today would help. Maybe not. But I think ultimately, what would really help is, letting go of expectations. Reminding myself I can't change him, and sometimes, even if things seem better, he has, like you said, shown me what he is and what he is capable of. Reminding myself that people are complicated and messy and not as cut-and-dried as they seem. I need to think about this for a bit.
On that note, thank you again. ✌🏼
posted by dubious_dude at 8:00 PM on November 11, 2022
Sounds to me like William is a poopshake.
Hahahaha! I actually laughed out aloud at that description. Very apt!
That particular group of people just happened to not have a you-shaped hole in it, because you're the unique person that is you, and not a bland, uniform square that would fit anywhere.
That explanation really helped reframe a lot for me.
Right, or just not bring it up in the first place, unless you brought it up in the first place?
William mentioned about a month or so that he was thinking about doing an axe throwing event for his birthday, and that he wanted me and his other friends to go. During our dinner, I brought it up, because I don't have Facebook, so figured he might have forgotten to invite me on text (he can be very forgetful sometimes; he even encouraged me to remind him about stuff if necessary), and that led to the already-explained situation in the summary/original Ask.
It seems to me from this situation and previous ones you've described that you may have an anxious attachment style
Yes, this was brought up in another Ask. Definitely anxious attachment style for me.
This is another instance where your question centres on wanting to control your friend's behaviours ... It's been 6 months since that question, and it does not seem like you have made progress on this issue.
I did not intend to control William's behavior. I was simply wishing him to be more honest, than punt things over to Gabby. For example, if he told me this: "I would really love for you to come, but the truth is, this group I'm going with is a group that feeds off each other in unique ways, and I don't want you to feel left out. I hope you understand that, but I really enjoyed dinner with you tonight!" then I would admittedly feel a bit hurt/rejected initially, but I would understand eventually and come around to see where he was coming from, and I'd have appreciated his honesty than him potentially lying to me, punting things over to Gabby, or giving a sloppy noncommittal answer. I just want someone I can trust, and who can be genuine, even if it means it's something I might not like initially. Does that make sense? I also wish he could have been considerate of my traumas with rejection (which were shared with him in the past) and either been honest in a very kind way that I wasn't invited, or decided that I was welcome to the party, rather than lying or delegating to someone else. It sucks sometimes not being part of a crowd, but I'd prefer to know that upfront than have to find out in a roundabout way, like today.
I will add that when people use you as a sounding board, it creates a sense of false intimacy. I thought I was a deeply trusted confidante, when in reality, I was cheaper than therapy.
Interesting perspective. William and I definitely had a lot of bidirectional conversations — we both would share our issues and problems. But, yes, on the nose of it, does make sense.
Yeah, keeping that in mind and acting on it would've been much more thoughtful and empathetic towards you, but he didn't do that. Would you be able to accept that about him?
Sucks, but yes. I would. I can't change or control him.
He’s treating you like crap. I’m sorry.
He is. Might or might not be intentional — don't know, don't want to analyze.
Moving forward, I need to decide what to do. I don't want (or am not ready yet) to drop him like a hot potato, but the cycle of hurt feelings need to stop. Maybe slow fading would be the best solution. Maybe talking to him about how confused I was today would help. Maybe not. But I think ultimately, what would really help is, letting go of expectations. Reminding myself I can't change him, and sometimes, even if things seem better, he has, like you said, shown me what he is and what he is capable of. Reminding myself that people are complicated and messy and not as cut-and-dried as they seem. I need to think about this for a bit.
On that note, thank you again. ✌🏼
posted by dubious_dude at 8:00 PM on November 11, 2022
William is being a shit friend.
You may also be acting needy, anxious, etc. at William, but that does not change the fact that William is being a shit friend.
His shittiness is not on you to fix.
But you are responsible for reading his no’s and perhaps choosing to put your energy towards finding friends who make you feel good just the way you are. You don’t even have to drop him to do that.
posted by danceswithlight at 8:50 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
You may also be acting needy, anxious, etc. at William, but that does not change the fact that William is being a shit friend.
His shittiness is not on you to fix.
But you are responsible for reading his no’s and perhaps choosing to put your energy towards finding friends who make you feel good just the way you are. You don’t even have to drop him to do that.
posted by danceswithlight at 8:50 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
It sounds like you really want him to say something like "I did that Gabby thing because I didn't want you to come". But... he DID communicate that, just not in explicit words. And you understood it perfectly - the proof is that it hurt your feelings. You're actually not confused. The true answer is, "I like him more than he likes me, and that feels bad." That is very clear! Why do you need it to be more explicit?
People say very little in direct words. And much of their direct conversational statements about themselves and what kind of person they are are bullshit because most people are not very self-aware and are hypocrites (including myself in this assessment!). People's actions are the thing to watch. As an experiment, try ignoring what people say and just treating their actions as a direct answer, which they actually usually are.
People usually demonstrate the exact amount they like you. But you can mess it up by asking for it in words, as you did here. You asked him to tell you he liked you by asking for an invite to the party. So he lied to you ("yes you can come, call Gabby") but his actions had already told the truth ("I don't want you to come so I didn't invite you").
Based on his actions, this guy likes hooking up with you sometimes, likes having deep convos with you sometimes, doesn't like you enough to remember you when making certain kinds of plans, likes hanging out with you sometimes, notably especially when you paid for his meal, and, importantly, likes blowing you off or seeing his other friends without you sometimes. And he lies when he's asked about his feelings. So if I had to assign a number based on what you've shared, I'd say he likes you, maybe, a 5/10. You can't control how much he likes you, or make him like you more, or make him tell you your "like ranking" in words. But the evidence is there. Your job is just to decide if 5/10 feels good, and then either keep contacting him, or stop contacting him.
OBVIOUSLY 5/10 does not feel good to you, or you wouldn't be here asking why your feelings are hurt.
So, your job now is to remove yourself from this situation that feels bad. I wouldn't force a convo because he's already shown you he's conflict-avoidant and will lie, plus nobody wants to litigate a casual social relationship, which again is what he is CLEARLY TELLING you with his actions that he wants from you.
Personally I think your best bet is to decide to silently ghost him. If he messages you again, maybe reply / see him IF you have time and want to. But don't initiate anything and don't chase him, and try to wean yourself off of him. Because he's not a healthy friend for you.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:51 PM on November 11, 2022 [22 favorites]
People say very little in direct words. And much of their direct conversational statements about themselves and what kind of person they are are bullshit because most people are not very self-aware and are hypocrites (including myself in this assessment!). People's actions are the thing to watch. As an experiment, try ignoring what people say and just treating their actions as a direct answer, which they actually usually are.
People usually demonstrate the exact amount they like you. But you can mess it up by asking for it in words, as you did here. You asked him to tell you he liked you by asking for an invite to the party. So he lied to you ("yes you can come, call Gabby") but his actions had already told the truth ("I don't want you to come so I didn't invite you").
Based on his actions, this guy likes hooking up with you sometimes, likes having deep convos with you sometimes, doesn't like you enough to remember you when making certain kinds of plans, likes hanging out with you sometimes, notably especially when you paid for his meal, and, importantly, likes blowing you off or seeing his other friends without you sometimes. And he lies when he's asked about his feelings. So if I had to assign a number based on what you've shared, I'd say he likes you, maybe, a 5/10. You can't control how much he likes you, or make him like you more, or make him tell you your "like ranking" in words. But the evidence is there. Your job is just to decide if 5/10 feels good, and then either keep contacting him, or stop contacting him.
OBVIOUSLY 5/10 does not feel good to you, or you wouldn't be here asking why your feelings are hurt.
So, your job now is to remove yourself from this situation that feels bad. I wouldn't force a convo because he's already shown you he's conflict-avoidant and will lie, plus nobody wants to litigate a casual social relationship, which again is what he is CLEARLY TELLING you with his actions that he wants from you.
Personally I think your best bet is to decide to silently ghost him. If he messages you again, maybe reply / see him IF you have time and want to. But don't initiate anything and don't chase him, and try to wean yourself off of him. Because he's not a healthy friend for you.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:51 PM on November 11, 2022 [22 favorites]
I'm sorry that you're feeling hurt. I agree that William didn't want you to come and tried to come up with some indirect way of telling you that. I am wondering if you're not his only FWB and he's seeing someone else who might be going to the axe throwing. That might explain his general caginess. I think William will continue to hurt your feelings. I think he's dating other people and sort of keeping you on the bench. Give yourself a break from this guy and focus on meeting new people who are excited to spend time with you.
posted by emd3737 at 5:42 AM on November 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 5:42 AM on November 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
he knows I'm socially anxious and have those traumas/triggers related to rejection. I'd have thought he knows better.
I'm sure it's BECAUSE he knows this about you that he didn't tell you directly that you aren't invited. He didn't want to risk dealing with your outsized emotional reaction towards him. If you persist in talking to him about this incident and sharing your feelings about it with him (no matter how nicely), you're only going to reinforce his decision to never be up-front with you, and the run arounds he will give you are only going to get more convoluted/confusing because you're going to teach him that a clumsy runaround is too flimsy to protect him from the impact of your triggered feelings.
And another thing: he probably thinks you know ought to know him better than to want an invitation, because he has made it clear to you that he doesn't like to overlap social circles.
posted by MiraK at 8:43 AM on November 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
I'm sure it's BECAUSE he knows this about you that he didn't tell you directly that you aren't invited. He didn't want to risk dealing with your outsized emotional reaction towards him. If you persist in talking to him about this incident and sharing your feelings about it with him (no matter how nicely), you're only going to reinforce his decision to never be up-front with you, and the run arounds he will give you are only going to get more convoluted/confusing because you're going to teach him that a clumsy runaround is too flimsy to protect him from the impact of your triggered feelings.
And another thing: he probably thinks you know ought to know him better than to want an invitation, because he has made it clear to you that he doesn't like to overlap social circles.
posted by MiraK at 8:43 AM on November 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
Addendum to the above: the only way to get people to be honest and up front about rejecting you is to help them feel that it is safe to reject you. Give them the confidence that you won't lose your shit at them or around them if they tell you you're not invited.
In this case, one way for you to build that kind of safety for your friend is to apologize to him the next time you see him: tell him you understand he didn't feel safe rejecting you to your face, admit that it's your fault that he was forced to either lie or risk dealing with your explosion/implosion, apologize for putting him in such a difficult spot, and let him know you want to work on making him feel safe to reject you directly to your face, because you vastly prefer such up-front rejection to any other type. (And then do that work.)
posted by MiraK at 8:55 AM on November 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
In this case, one way for you to build that kind of safety for your friend is to apologize to him the next time you see him: tell him you understand he didn't feel safe rejecting you to your face, admit that it's your fault that he was forced to either lie or risk dealing with your explosion/implosion, apologize for putting him in such a difficult spot, and let him know you want to work on making him feel safe to reject you directly to your face, because you vastly prefer such up-front rejection to any other type. (And then do that work.)
posted by MiraK at 8:55 AM on November 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Related to what MiraK has said above, it's possible he really was enjoying dinner with you as much as you were enjoying dinner, and then you brought up the axe-throwing event and his thought was something like "ugh! We're having so much fun right now and if I tell him he can't come because of [reason] he'll get upset and this dinner will be ruined. I guess I better figure out a white lie to delay the rejection a few days...."
But I think ultimately, what would really help is, letting go of expectations.
Yes, 100% this is what you need to do if you want to keep this friendship. I can relate to your post(s) because I was a really weird kid who only started to get a hang of making friends in my late 20s, and I still have some lingering anxiety there, so I really do empathize with you. I have had some friends who were flakey, and undependable. Yet when I would manage to hang out with them? Pretty much always a good time. The only way I can handle being friends with this type of person is to anticipate plans will likely fall through, so when that does happen, I'm not disappointed.
But also - if William mentions a potential plan and then a month goes by and you hear nothing - assume the plan changed and you're no longer invited, and remind yourself that it very likely has nothing to do with you and William, and everything to do with who else is going or some other factor not worth trying to figure out. Maybe Gabby is paying for this birthday outing and doesn't want to pay for you, maybe someone else on the invite list wants to keep it small, who knows.
posted by coffeecat at 1:13 PM on November 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
But I think ultimately, what would really help is, letting go of expectations.
Yes, 100% this is what you need to do if you want to keep this friendship. I can relate to your post(s) because I was a really weird kid who only started to get a hang of making friends in my late 20s, and I still have some lingering anxiety there, so I really do empathize with you. I have had some friends who were flakey, and undependable. Yet when I would manage to hang out with them? Pretty much always a good time. The only way I can handle being friends with this type of person is to anticipate plans will likely fall through, so when that does happen, I'm not disappointed.
But also - if William mentions a potential plan and then a month goes by and you hear nothing - assume the plan changed and you're no longer invited, and remind yourself that it very likely has nothing to do with you and William, and everything to do with who else is going or some other factor not worth trying to figure out. Maybe Gabby is paying for this birthday outing and doesn't want to pay for you, maybe someone else on the invite list wants to keep it small, who knows.
posted by coffeecat at 1:13 PM on November 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Based on his actions, this guy likes hooking up with you sometimes, likes having deep convos with you sometimes, doesn't like you enough to remember you when making certain kinds of plans, likes hanging out with you sometimes, notably especially when you paid for his meal, and, importantly, likes blowing you off or seeing his other friends without you sometimes. And he lies when he's asked about his feelings. So if I had to assign a number based on what you've shared, I'd say he likes you, maybe, a 5/10. You can't control how much he likes you, or make him like you more, or make him tell you your "like ranking" in words. But the evidence is there. Your job is just to decide if 5/10 feels good, and then either keep contacting him, or stop contacting him.
Yep, this is basically what I was thinking.
For example, if he told me this: "I would really love for you to come, but the truth is, this group I'm going with is a group that feeds off each other in unique ways, and I don't want you to feel left out. I hope you understand that, but I really enjoyed dinner with you tonight!"
I'm not sure I've ever met a person mature, honest, and eloquent enough to say something like that, particularly when put on the spot with little time to think.
This is the third question you've asked related to William hurting your feelings by blowing you off. Three strikes, he's out. Seriously - this guy is not worth all this hurt.
Here's a question for you: whose idea was the birthday dinner? In other words, who contacted whom to propose/set up the dinner? I am betting it was you.
Another question: how many times has William ever contacted you suggesting in-person plans and actually keeping to those plans without flaking? I am betting you have reached out to him to make all or most of the plans.
I really just don't think this guy is a good friend to you. If it were me, I would stop contacting him and put my energy into meeting people who are good friends, who make me feel good about myself, and who reach out to me to make plans roughly as often as I reach out to them.
posted by whitelily at 4:28 PM on November 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yep, this is basically what I was thinking.
For example, if he told me this: "I would really love for you to come, but the truth is, this group I'm going with is a group that feeds off each other in unique ways, and I don't want you to feel left out. I hope you understand that, but I really enjoyed dinner with you tonight!"
I'm not sure I've ever met a person mature, honest, and eloquent enough to say something like that, particularly when put on the spot with little time to think.
This is the third question you've asked related to William hurting your feelings by blowing you off. Three strikes, he's out. Seriously - this guy is not worth all this hurt.
Here's a question for you: whose idea was the birthday dinner? In other words, who contacted whom to propose/set up the dinner? I am betting it was you.
Another question: how many times has William ever contacted you suggesting in-person plans and actually keeping to those plans without flaking? I am betting you have reached out to him to make all or most of the plans.
I really just don't think this guy is a good friend to you. If it were me, I would stop contacting him and put my energy into meeting people who are good friends, who make me feel good about myself, and who reach out to me to make plans roughly as often as I reach out to them.
posted by whitelily at 4:28 PM on November 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think you've gotten good advice. I have been thinking of this question.
What I have to add is the following:
- friends don't owe you their social circles.
I'm the anti-networker in that I don't like to mix up my friend groups; I have only like, twice, thrown larger parties and invited everyone across my friend-streams. Some of that is concerted decision-making (my friends are soooo different) and some is just kind of elementary school experiences with girl-group dynamics.
It has ZERO to do with any of my friends as far as our friendship or them. They are great. I just don't see myself as their social facilitator, nor do I sit at home creating a list of A-listers.
- dude, you have triggers. That doesn't mean other people have to avoid them.
I have dozens of triggers, and some of them are fucking weird. It is not my friends' or family's job to avoid them. Can they stay in touch with me, do their best, and also look at my face and see if I'm upset at any point? Yes. That is wonderful and a lot.
But they cannot avoid them and they are not responsible for my childhood. It's my job to manage my triggers. If I feel anxious about being invited places, it's my job to host/initiate events instead, or take a class or have a hobby so that I feel happy and like my life is okay.
Does that mean my friends should never invite me places? Of course not. But it does mean they are not responsible for inviting me every time, just in case it upsets me. You seem to be spending a lot of time scorekeeping.
Also sometimes I think you say "confused and triggered" when you mean "angry and upset." It's okay to be angry and upset and NOT have a big conversation and let the feelings pass and then see how you feel about it in a couple of days.
- also this guy is not really a great friend. I'd dial it way back.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:11 PM on November 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
What I have to add is the following:
- friends don't owe you their social circles.
I'm the anti-networker in that I don't like to mix up my friend groups; I have only like, twice, thrown larger parties and invited everyone across my friend-streams. Some of that is concerted decision-making (my friends are soooo different) and some is just kind of elementary school experiences with girl-group dynamics.
It has ZERO to do with any of my friends as far as our friendship or them. They are great. I just don't see myself as their social facilitator, nor do I sit at home creating a list of A-listers.
- dude, you have triggers. That doesn't mean other people have to avoid them.
I have dozens of triggers, and some of them are fucking weird. It is not my friends' or family's job to avoid them. Can they stay in touch with me, do their best, and also look at my face and see if I'm upset at any point? Yes. That is wonderful and a lot.
But they cannot avoid them and they are not responsible for my childhood. It's my job to manage my triggers. If I feel anxious about being invited places, it's my job to host/initiate events instead, or take a class or have a hobby so that I feel happy and like my life is okay.
Does that mean my friends should never invite me places? Of course not. But it does mean they are not responsible for inviting me every time, just in case it upsets me. You seem to be spending a lot of time scorekeeping.
Also sometimes I think you say "confused and triggered" when you mean "angry and upset." It's okay to be angry and upset and NOT have a big conversation and let the feelings pass and then see how you feel about it in a couple of days.
- also this guy is not really a great friend. I'd dial it way back.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:11 PM on November 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Aw, that’s a sucky situation and people have great advice for you. For my part, I wanted to kindly suggest that maybe you’re just not a FWB person. I say that as someone who is the same.
Before I was married, I dated people and I had some one-time hookups with friends that were fun, but FWB was agony for probably similar reasons to what you’re feeling. I would like someone more than they liked me and unlike a proper dating situation, where you break up, feel terrible for a while, then get on with things, FWB situations would just amplify the misery.
Not to mention that if you’re pining away in one of these liminal situations you might not be open to meeting someone great for dating. (I know this may be more common in the gay community, but that doesn’t mean you have to do it if it doesn’t work for you.)
Hence, I suggest you break up with FWBs as a concept and tell future sexy friends you don’t do it. Hook up maybe once and then close the book if they’re not interested in dating you. You can always remind yourself that you’re worth a full relationship and if the other person isn’t ready for that, then you’re just not suited for one another. Good people will respect that.
posted by ec2y at 10:26 PM on November 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Before I was married, I dated people and I had some one-time hookups with friends that were fun, but FWB was agony for probably similar reasons to what you’re feeling. I would like someone more than they liked me and unlike a proper dating situation, where you break up, feel terrible for a while, then get on with things, FWB situations would just amplify the misery.
Not to mention that if you’re pining away in one of these liminal situations you might not be open to meeting someone great for dating. (I know this may be more common in the gay community, but that doesn’t mean you have to do it if it doesn’t work for you.)
Hence, I suggest you break up with FWBs as a concept and tell future sexy friends you don’t do it. Hook up maybe once and then close the book if they’re not interested in dating you. You can always remind yourself that you’re worth a full relationship and if the other person isn’t ready for that, then you’re just not suited for one another. Good people will respect that.
posted by ec2y at 10:26 PM on November 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I did not intend to control William's behavior. I was simply wishing him to be more honest, than punt things over to Gabby.
The thing is, this is you trying to control his behavior. You want a particular kind of relationship/friendship with him, and you want him to treat you with respect and dignity and honesty, and those are all really valid things to want.
The thing is, he doesn't want those things. He doesn't want you to come to his birthday party or hang out with his friends. He doesn't want to have to tell you the truth about how he feels, or doesn't feel, about you. In fact, it sounds like he doesn't really want to have to deal with your feelings or needs or wishes at all, outside of a few discrete times when you're having a sharing moment over pillow talk or whatever. And he doesn't want to have to talk to you about any of this, because talking about feelings and being honest with people is hard, and he's not willing to put in that effort. That's very likely more about him than about you, but it's true.
What you're describing is a friendship where you get just enough of something you really want that you've been willing to bend over backwards to overlook all the ways in which your needs are not being met. Because you think to yourself, if just this one little thing changed, this would be a great relationship/friendship/situation for me. But the thing you want changed isn't under your control, and he doesn't want it changed. He wants exactly what he's getting right now, and he wants to not have to put in any additional emotional effort to get it. I think, from this post and your other, that you need to set a boundary, and say that the good isn't worth the angst you feel when it's bad. But that's something you have to do, not something you can make him do. I'm sorry you're going through this.
posted by decathecting at 8:18 AM on November 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
The thing is, this is you trying to control his behavior. You want a particular kind of relationship/friendship with him, and you want him to treat you with respect and dignity and honesty, and those are all really valid things to want.
The thing is, he doesn't want those things. He doesn't want you to come to his birthday party or hang out with his friends. He doesn't want to have to tell you the truth about how he feels, or doesn't feel, about you. In fact, it sounds like he doesn't really want to have to deal with your feelings or needs or wishes at all, outside of a few discrete times when you're having a sharing moment over pillow talk or whatever. And he doesn't want to have to talk to you about any of this, because talking about feelings and being honest with people is hard, and he's not willing to put in that effort. That's very likely more about him than about you, but it's true.
What you're describing is a friendship where you get just enough of something you really want that you've been willing to bend over backwards to overlook all the ways in which your needs are not being met. Because you think to yourself, if just this one little thing changed, this would be a great relationship/friendship/situation for me. But the thing you want changed isn't under your control, and he doesn't want it changed. He wants exactly what he's getting right now, and he wants to not have to put in any additional emotional effort to get it. I think, from this post and your other, that you need to set a boundary, and say that the good isn't worth the angst you feel when it's bad. But that's something you have to do, not something you can make him do. I'm sorry you're going through this.
posted by decathecting at 8:18 AM on November 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
It’s lousy and having read some of your past questions, I think you might be best off finding someone else for sexy times and dinners.
posted by fruitslinger at 10:39 AM on November 11, 2022 [50 favorites]