What are some ways to think about effort, achievement and “giftedness”?
April 26, 2022 10:21 AM Subscribe
A college aged person in my life is struggling with issues of natural talent, effort and achievement. They are at the age where it is an existential question for them.
They were deemed officially “not gifted” in middle school but went on to be ranked first in 7th and 8th grade, and was among a handful top students in high school.
In college they have confirmed that they are indeed not naturally talented enough to major in a STEM field. This doesn’t really come as a a surprise since they already knew they weren’t “gifted.”
So they are moving into a discipline I would describe as “half STEM” because it seems to be a better fit.
This is very much about defining their identity and who they are, very much of a naval-gazing type of ask. This young person has always prided themselves on their work ethic and is confused by the attitude encountered at college that it’s not great to work hard.
In high school the kids were separated in the try hards and the ones who didn’t try hard. My young person considered themselves a try hard and didn’t feel bad about it at all. Now, there is confusion because when taking STEM classes the culture was very much about having an impeccable work ethic. Then my young person overheard a professor in less “hard” discipline make a disparaging remark about how the students cared more about the class than the professor herself. The implication was that they were trying too hard.
This is confusing to my young person because it is not an attitude they would have expected to encounter at a very high tuition college (where our family pays no tuition). How much of it is class or race related?
Also relevant is that my young person looks Asian, but does not have any language or cultural knowledge, so it not a “real” Asian. There is a lot of baggage around looking Asian, being a high achiever and being perceived as a try hard.
What are some ways for my young person to understand these issues and refine their identity? My young person really enjoys organic chemistry, but has not taken the official pre-med version. The contrast behind how hard work is so respected in that area, but seems less respected in a different field is confusing.
The only other experience my young person has had with people who seem to disdain hard work is with the side of our family that is white, blue collar. For that side of the family it seems to be about not trying to be better than you are. There’s a huge sabotage feel about it to me, about staying in your place and “who do you think you are?” My young person is in contact with other young people on that side off the family but the culture/values gap is huge.
My young person needs ways to think about what it mean to “try hard” as an Asian appearing person at a competitive university, and also to understand the similarity in “don’t try hard” attitudes encountered at the university and among her working class family.
So they are moving into a discipline I would describe as “half STEM” because it seems to be a better fit.
This is very much about defining their identity and who they are, very much of a naval-gazing type of ask. This young person has always prided themselves on their work ethic and is confused by the attitude encountered at college that it’s not great to work hard.
In high school the kids were separated in the try hards and the ones who didn’t try hard. My young person considered themselves a try hard and didn’t feel bad about it at all. Now, there is confusion because when taking STEM classes the culture was very much about having an impeccable work ethic. Then my young person overheard a professor in less “hard” discipline make a disparaging remark about how the students cared more about the class than the professor herself. The implication was that they were trying too hard.
This is confusing to my young person because it is not an attitude they would have expected to encounter at a very high tuition college (where our family pays no tuition). How much of it is class or race related?
Also relevant is that my young person looks Asian, but does not have any language or cultural knowledge, so it not a “real” Asian. There is a lot of baggage around looking Asian, being a high achiever and being perceived as a try hard.
What are some ways for my young person to understand these issues and refine their identity? My young person really enjoys organic chemistry, but has not taken the official pre-med version. The contrast behind how hard work is so respected in that area, but seems less respected in a different field is confusing.
The only other experience my young person has had with people who seem to disdain hard work is with the side of our family that is white, blue collar. For that side of the family it seems to be about not trying to be better than you are. There’s a huge sabotage feel about it to me, about staying in your place and “who do you think you are?” My young person is in contact with other young people on that side off the family but the culture/values gap is huge.
My young person needs ways to think about what it mean to “try hard” as an Asian appearing person at a competitive university, and also to understand the similarity in “don’t try hard” attitudes encountered at the university and among her working class family.
Response by poster: I know I’m not supposed to reply constantly, but I want to say that my young person decided they were going to be happier not being pure STEM. Honors physical chemistry is what did my young person in. And they made the choice that the misery was not worth it to them. It was a very difficult decision but I think they’re happy with it.
It seems like some people are okay with lower grades and just getting by but my young person decided that wouldn’t work for them.
posted by GliblyKronor at 10:37 AM on April 26, 2022
It seems like some people are okay with lower grades and just getting by but my young person decided that wouldn’t work for them.
posted by GliblyKronor at 10:37 AM on April 26, 2022
I want to offer two thoughts on what you've written here, which address only tiny aspects of your whole question and aren't meant to be dismissive of any of the student's broader concerns.
One thing for the young person to keep in mind is that the 'professors' they are learning from could well not actually be professors, but incredibly poorly paid adjunct instructors with very precarious job security. Or, a full time research faculty might have what they view as much more pressing demands on their time and grant money than teaching a 101 level class to first year students but they have to do it because the institution requires it every so often. So, an instructor complaining that the students are trying too hard might well be more about the instructor's situation,, than about the students themselves or their efforts.
Another thing is that 'gifted' and 'naturally talented' are completely loaded terms which impart a lot of expectations but don't carry a lot of actual meaning. Maybe your students isn't 'naturally talented enough' at calculus to succeed in a BEng program but is 'naturally talented enough' at reading and synthesizing information to succeed in an BA in English, you know? Those are often treated as greater or lesser talents, because the P.Eng gets paid more than the English teacher but one isn't somehow unequivocally more of a gift than the other. You can not get calculus and still be smart in a bunch of other ways, even if society thinks a STEM degree is better than a non-STEM degree.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:37 AM on April 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
One thing for the young person to keep in mind is that the 'professors' they are learning from could well not actually be professors, but incredibly poorly paid adjunct instructors with very precarious job security. Or, a full time research faculty might have what they view as much more pressing demands on their time and grant money than teaching a 101 level class to first year students but they have to do it because the institution requires it every so often. So, an instructor complaining that the students are trying too hard might well be more about the instructor's situation,, than about the students themselves or their efforts.
Another thing is that 'gifted' and 'naturally talented' are completely loaded terms which impart a lot of expectations but don't carry a lot of actual meaning. Maybe your students isn't 'naturally talented enough' at calculus to succeed in a BEng program but is 'naturally talented enough' at reading and synthesizing information to succeed in an BA in English, you know? Those are often treated as greater or lesser talents, because the P.Eng gets paid more than the English teacher but one isn't somehow unequivocally more of a gift than the other. You can not get calculus and still be smart in a bunch of other ways, even if society thinks a STEM degree is better than a non-STEM degree.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:37 AM on April 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
IMHO society has this weirdness around "gifted" or not. This is all bullshit; you don't have to be "gifted" to do well in STEM or in any other field. People should do the things they find interesting, not what other people say they "should" do because they're gifted or not. People do well when they try hard.
If this person does not want to do STEM that is perfectly fine. If they want to do STEM even if they're told they're not "gifted" that is fine too! What does this person find interesting? They should do that. And they should stop hanging out with people who are scornful about people that "try too hard". Those types will be relegated to lifelong underemployment doing menial jobs that they hate.
As a former college professor I'm shocked and aghast at that "trying too hard" comment from a professor. The students that I liked were the ones that were trying hard, not the ones that things came easily to.
posted by phliar at 10:44 AM on April 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
If this person does not want to do STEM that is perfectly fine. If they want to do STEM even if they're told they're not "gifted" that is fine too! What does this person find interesting? They should do that. And they should stop hanging out with people who are scornful about people that "try too hard". Those types will be relegated to lifelong underemployment doing menial jobs that they hate.
As a former college professor I'm shocked and aghast at that "trying too hard" comment from a professor. The students that I liked were the ones that were trying hard, not the ones that things came easily to.
posted by phliar at 10:44 AM on April 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
It really sounds like this person needs to look into intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation, and to find things they actually enjoy rather than just appearing to "try hard".
posted by kevinbelt at 10:45 AM on April 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 10:45 AM on April 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
Oh I missed the bit about this person liking organic chemistry. That is a great and rich subject, encourage them to pursue it. Also, I do not think that "work hard"/"do not work too hard" breaks down along disciplines, it is more of a social thing. When I was an undergraduate we had some of that in my field, I tried to ignore them and do my own thing. My only regret is that I did buy into it a bit, because those people were the "cool crowd" that I wanted to be part of. Luckily I escaped.
posted by phliar at 10:55 AM on April 26, 2022
posted by phliar at 10:55 AM on April 26, 2022
Then my young person overheard a professor in less “hard” discipline make a disparaging remark about how the students cared more about the class than the professor herself.
You are really making a very big deal out of this one comment—this is your second question about it today. Some teachers are bad; others worry that their students are burning themselves out. Consider that you don't know the full context on this overheard, third-hand remark, and that it may not accurately represent the culture of the humanities, this school, or even this professor.
I want to say that my young person decided they were going to be happier not being pure STEM
Great, then they shouldn't! Nobody has to do STEM! But the reason is not that they aren't "naturally gifted," a category that doesn't actually exist in isolation (everyone who's actually gifted is gifted at something specific, not gifted generally, and what people who are marked "gifted" in school are specifically good at is succeeding on the tests that get you marked "gifted" in school). It's also disrespectful towards people who succeed in STEM fields to imply that success is the result purely of natural talent, and not qualities like passion and hard work.
They don't have to consider themselves a "STEM person" to study organic chemistry. College is a great time to study things that you're interested in.
The only other experience my young person has had with people who seem to disdain hard work is with the side of our family that is white, blue collar.
Many blue-collar people also work hard. Perhaps you weren't implying otherwise, but very strange to bring up their socioeconomic status in this context if so.
It sounds to me like you've got a tendency to deeply over-generalize on a whole lot of fronts. The best advice I can give to your young person, and I hope they then model it for you, is to maintain a flexible and open-minded attitude about things like work, passion, talent, and success.
posted by babelfish at 10:59 AM on April 26, 2022 [27 favorites]
You are really making a very big deal out of this one comment—this is your second question about it today. Some teachers are bad; others worry that their students are burning themselves out. Consider that you don't know the full context on this overheard, third-hand remark, and that it may not accurately represent the culture of the humanities, this school, or even this professor.
I want to say that my young person decided they were going to be happier not being pure STEM
Great, then they shouldn't! Nobody has to do STEM! But the reason is not that they aren't "naturally gifted," a category that doesn't actually exist in isolation (everyone who's actually gifted is gifted at something specific, not gifted generally, and what people who are marked "gifted" in school are specifically good at is succeeding on the tests that get you marked "gifted" in school). It's also disrespectful towards people who succeed in STEM fields to imply that success is the result purely of natural talent, and not qualities like passion and hard work.
They don't have to consider themselves a "STEM person" to study organic chemistry. College is a great time to study things that you're interested in.
The only other experience my young person has had with people who seem to disdain hard work is with the side of our family that is white, blue collar.
Many blue-collar people also work hard. Perhaps you weren't implying otherwise, but very strange to bring up their socioeconomic status in this context if so.
It sounds to me like you've got a tendency to deeply over-generalize on a whole lot of fronts. The best advice I can give to your young person, and I hope they then model it for you, is to maintain a flexible and open-minded attitude about things like work, passion, talent, and success.
posted by babelfish at 10:59 AM on April 26, 2022 [27 favorites]
I think your young person has several problems that need to be dealt with separately:
1. This idea of natural talent and giftedness and tying one's identity to it. This seems like a therapy thing to me.
2. A tendency to over-generalize without a lot of basis for figuring out what the actual axis of variation is. "Stem people are like this...non-STEM people are like that." etc. "In HS people were like this. In this college people are like that." With respect, your young person has not met everyone at their college and has especially not met a random sample of people at their college, nor everyone/a random sample of people in STEM majors or non-STEM majors, nor of professors or professors in STEM classes and non-STEM classes. They're encountering new ways of thinking and trying to put order into what they see ("Oh, it must be a non-STEM thing"), but that doesn't make these supposed correlations accurate*. It would probably be useful for your young person to interact with people by thinking "This person isn't that interested in trying that hard." or "Professor X doesn't think their course should be the centre of the universe" rather than trying to generalize this EVEN IF they have met multiple people who fit the supposed pattern.. A research methods course might help here.
If trying hard is important to your young person, I assure you there are plenty of people in whatever non-STEM field they have chosen who work very hard, they just haven't met them. If they want to meet them, then encourage them to think about how they might meet those people. And I assure you there are lots of "D is for Degree" types in STEM fields, too. They just didn't meet them.
*When I was 10, in Grade 5, my family moved from an inner-city neighbourhood to a more suburban one. I hate it. The suburban school was behind academically and ahead in student "maturity.". At my old school, kids wore whatever dorky outfits their grandmas put them in and played at recess (skipping, ball games, etc.) and we went home and "played outside" after school. At my new school kids in my grade were smoking, dating, and judging the brand names of each other's clothes. I spent years generalizing about downtown kids vs. suburban kids (and no coincidence that I am raising my son downtown). But I've come to realize that this wasn't actually the axis of variation. In my old inner city school, just by coincidence, all the kids in my grade were only children or oldest siblings. At my new school, many of the kids in my grade had older siblings in high school (from whom the smoking, dating, and fashion-judgement were clearly drifting down). I now think that's the thing that actually mattered, but at the time all I thought was "I went from X and Y and things are different so it must be an X/Y thing.". I think your young person is doing the same. But unlike my suburban elementary school, which had only 18 kids in my grade, your young person's school is large and I promise you it's varied. Their people are out there. They just need to find them.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:00 AM on April 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
1. This idea of natural talent and giftedness and tying one's identity to it. This seems like a therapy thing to me.
2. A tendency to over-generalize without a lot of basis for figuring out what the actual axis of variation is. "Stem people are like this...non-STEM people are like that." etc. "In HS people were like this. In this college people are like that." With respect, your young person has not met everyone at their college and has especially not met a random sample of people at their college, nor everyone/a random sample of people in STEM majors or non-STEM majors, nor of professors or professors in STEM classes and non-STEM classes. They're encountering new ways of thinking and trying to put order into what they see ("Oh, it must be a non-STEM thing"), but that doesn't make these supposed correlations accurate*. It would probably be useful for your young person to interact with people by thinking "This person isn't that interested in trying that hard." or "Professor X doesn't think their course should be the centre of the universe" rather than trying to generalize this EVEN IF they have met multiple people who fit the supposed pattern.. A research methods course might help here.
If trying hard is important to your young person, I assure you there are plenty of people in whatever non-STEM field they have chosen who work very hard, they just haven't met them. If they want to meet them, then encourage them to think about how they might meet those people. And I assure you there are lots of "D is for Degree" types in STEM fields, too. They just didn't meet them.
*When I was 10, in Grade 5, my family moved from an inner-city neighbourhood to a more suburban one. I hate it. The suburban school was behind academically and ahead in student "maturity.". At my old school, kids wore whatever dorky outfits their grandmas put them in and played at recess (skipping, ball games, etc.) and we went home and "played outside" after school. At my new school kids in my grade were smoking, dating, and judging the brand names of each other's clothes. I spent years generalizing about downtown kids vs. suburban kids (and no coincidence that I am raising my son downtown). But I've come to realize that this wasn't actually the axis of variation. In my old inner city school, just by coincidence, all the kids in my grade were only children or oldest siblings. At my new school, many of the kids in my grade had older siblings in high school (from whom the smoking, dating, and fashion-judgement were clearly drifting down). I now think that's the thing that actually mattered, but at the time all I thought was "I went from X and Y and things are different so it must be an X/Y thing.". I think your young person is doing the same. But unlike my suburban elementary school, which had only 18 kids in my grade, your young person's school is large and I promise you it's varied. Their people are out there. They just need to find them.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:00 AM on April 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
It may be helpful to try to untangle what they overheard the professor say from their own self perception. Children at school expect teachers to know them and use this knowledge to carefully nurture them. Adults in universities cannot have the same expectation. University professors are under different kinds of pressures which have nothing to do with students, really, and it is quite common to have cynical, detached, burnt out etc worldviews about their work. Overhearing these kinds of “behind the curtain” comments and taking them personally is understandable for a juvenile mind. As an older person you can help them understand that not everything they encounter is about them. For example, if you were awake during surgery and heard the kind of macabre humour surgeons make during their work, you may feel very upset. But the surgeon is still doing their job of caring for you while making dark or even crass comments. Likewise a professor who is frustrated by difficult aspects of their work may blow off steam by making broad statements about students. They are not doing this “at” any individual student and it doesn’t indicate a huge black and white dichotomous worldview like you are trying to establish here. A college education is as well as a place to learn academically, somewhere you can learn to stand on your own two feet and not rely on being told verbally and via grades what you are worth. Is the person enjoying their studies, passing, and enjoying a varied social and extracurricular life? If yes then they are fine.
posted by Balthamos at 11:01 AM on April 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Balthamos at 11:01 AM on April 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
At best, giftedness is a measure of "how well" some students do in reference to their peers in "playing the game of school." School is not the "real world." I have not found the concept of giftedness/ intelligence/ etc. to be a particularly meaningful framework in adulthood.
It's not useful (and even harmful) to have my sense of self be determined by the opinions of other people. At the end of the day I'm me. I strive to be the very best version of myself. If there's a skill I want to develop, then it's worth doing (because I want to!). What others are doing don't matter.
posted by oceano at 11:06 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's not useful (and even harmful) to have my sense of self be determined by the opinions of other people. At the end of the day I'm me. I strive to be the very best version of myself. If there's a skill I want to develop, then it's worth doing (because I want to!). What others are doing don't matter.
posted by oceano at 11:06 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
In college they have confirmed that they are indeed not naturally talented enough to major in a STEM field. This doesn’t really come as a a surprise since they already knew they weren’t “gifted.”
[...]
Honors physical chemistry is what did my young person in. And they made the choice that the misery was not worth it to them. It was a very difficult decision but I think they’re happy with it.
I dropped out of a STEM program, in part due to mental health stuff and in part due to a lack of support. STEM programs vary a lot, and to me, this kind of thinking is a couple of different red flags for depression/anxiety/self-hatred/mental health issues in one. The first red flag is internalization (it's about the young person's "talent" and lack thereof, not the external preparation or environment), and the second is generalization (what is true for this person in this moment in this course will certainly be true for this person in every STEM major at every school).
"I can't hack this honors class with these people" and "I am not naturally talented enough to major in a STEM field" are WORLDS apart.
Then my young person overheard a professor in less “hard” discipline make a disparaging remark about how the students cared more about the class than the professor herself. The implication was that they were trying too hard.
The only other experience my young person has had with people who seem to disdain hard work is with the side of our family that is white, blue collar. For that side of the family it seems to be about not trying to be better than you are. There’s a huge sabotage feel about it to me, about staying in your place and “who do you think you are?” My young person is in contact with other young people on that side off the family but the culture/values gap is huge.
I want to offer an alternate explanation for both of these things that may or may not be helpful to you: industry is not the only value. There is some tension in higher education between industry (working hard to get grades and credentials to get a prestigious and/or high-paying job) and anything else universities are theoretically supposed to be for. It is possible the professor is frustrated because she saw her students as valuing nothing but giving enough correct answers to get a better paycheck sometime in the future, and having no interest in the actual content of the class or intellectualism in the sense of "the life of the mind."
There are a number of people at varying economic strata who have identified the exaltation of industry as a scam. Some people call this "work life balance" or "having boundaries." Richer, WASPier people in my experience are likelier to call it "following your passion" or "focusing on your priorities."
Having watched people who write and think a lot more brilliantly than me spend the first decade of their adult life in academia and get out with little more than advanced degrees and crushing debt, I would argue that "try as hard as you can in school all the time and get the most advanced degree you can" is self-destructive, delusional behavior in the twenty-first century. Get in, make friends, network like nobody's business, do some internships, get a bachelor's degree, get the Hell out, and don't look back.
I mean, it's quite possible that instructor is an adjunct working fifty hours a week and collecting food stamps, and she has staked her entire adult life on the belief that the life of the mind is the thing that matters most. Higher education has been an enormous ripoff for a ton of millennials and zoomers, and might still be a ripoff if you're only paying in sweat, tears, and years of your life.
Also relevant is that my young person looks Asian, but does not have any language or cultural knowledge, so it not a “real” Asian. There is a lot of baggage around looking Asian, being a high achiever and being perceived as a try hard.
Gently, this is something they should probably pursue with other AAPI or visible-minority students who have comparable experiences. Being disconnected from community and culture and feeling like you do not belong anywhere really sucks, and it's got to be compounding the stress of the rest of it.
Seconding that your young person should also find their people. If they actually use they/them pronouns day-to-day, they should be connecting with queer community on campus. If they have other interests or identities, they should be joining clubs or going to meetups or getting onto email lists about those things, too.
If the queer/AAPI/other communities your young person values are not extant at this school, it's going to be a long, grueling, miserable four years, and they are best off spending as little time on-campus as possible and trying to build those connections at community groups or other schools in the same city.
posted by All Might Be Well at 11:06 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
[...]
Honors physical chemistry is what did my young person in. And they made the choice that the misery was not worth it to them. It was a very difficult decision but I think they’re happy with it.
I dropped out of a STEM program, in part due to mental health stuff and in part due to a lack of support. STEM programs vary a lot, and to me, this kind of thinking is a couple of different red flags for depression/anxiety/self-hatred/mental health issues in one. The first red flag is internalization (it's about the young person's "talent" and lack thereof, not the external preparation or environment), and the second is generalization (what is true for this person in this moment in this course will certainly be true for this person in every STEM major at every school).
"I can't hack this honors class with these people" and "I am not naturally talented enough to major in a STEM field" are WORLDS apart.
Then my young person overheard a professor in less “hard” discipline make a disparaging remark about how the students cared more about the class than the professor herself. The implication was that they were trying too hard.
The only other experience my young person has had with people who seem to disdain hard work is with the side of our family that is white, blue collar. For that side of the family it seems to be about not trying to be better than you are. There’s a huge sabotage feel about it to me, about staying in your place and “who do you think you are?” My young person is in contact with other young people on that side off the family but the culture/values gap is huge.
I want to offer an alternate explanation for both of these things that may or may not be helpful to you: industry is not the only value. There is some tension in higher education between industry (working hard to get grades and credentials to get a prestigious and/or high-paying job) and anything else universities are theoretically supposed to be for. It is possible the professor is frustrated because she saw her students as valuing nothing but giving enough correct answers to get a better paycheck sometime in the future, and having no interest in the actual content of the class or intellectualism in the sense of "the life of the mind."
There are a number of people at varying economic strata who have identified the exaltation of industry as a scam. Some people call this "work life balance" or "having boundaries." Richer, WASPier people in my experience are likelier to call it "following your passion" or "focusing on your priorities."
Having watched people who write and think a lot more brilliantly than me spend the first decade of their adult life in academia and get out with little more than advanced degrees and crushing debt, I would argue that "try as hard as you can in school all the time and get the most advanced degree you can" is self-destructive, delusional behavior in the twenty-first century. Get in, make friends, network like nobody's business, do some internships, get a bachelor's degree, get the Hell out, and don't look back.
I mean, it's quite possible that instructor is an adjunct working fifty hours a week and collecting food stamps, and she has staked her entire adult life on the belief that the life of the mind is the thing that matters most. Higher education has been an enormous ripoff for a ton of millennials and zoomers, and might still be a ripoff if you're only paying in sweat, tears, and years of your life.
Also relevant is that my young person looks Asian, but does not have any language or cultural knowledge, so it not a “real” Asian. There is a lot of baggage around looking Asian, being a high achiever and being perceived as a try hard.
Gently, this is something they should probably pursue with other AAPI or visible-minority students who have comparable experiences. Being disconnected from community and culture and feeling like you do not belong anywhere really sucks, and it's got to be compounding the stress of the rest of it.
Seconding that your young person should also find their people. If they actually use they/them pronouns day-to-day, they should be connecting with queer community on campus. If they have other interests or identities, they should be joining clubs or going to meetups or getting onto email lists about those things, too.
If the queer/AAPI/other communities your young person values are not extant at this school, it's going to be a long, grueling, miserable four years, and they are best off spending as little time on-campus as possible and trying to build those connections at community groups or other schools in the same city.
posted by All Might Be Well at 11:06 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I work with a lot of scientists. They were not all "gifted" in school. You don't need to be "gifted" to pursue a STEM career.
I am "gifted". I cruised through the work at a good private school and have a phi beta kappa key. I did not need to try very hard to get As and in fact devoted relatively little time to coursework given that I was actually doing all of it. I am a low level accountant. I mean, it's fine, but I'm not going to set the world on fire at this point. (Although to be fair the world is setting itself, uh, on fire pretty fast.)
A subtext of your questions seems to be "smart people do STEM and less smart people do humanities". Another seems to be "only high prestige careers are worthwhile and high prestige careers are smart people careers". Maybe this is where your college person is at themselves, but it's not a workable way to get through life, especially in our increasingly disastrous and cut-throat society.
posted by Frowner at 11:08 AM on April 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
I am "gifted". I cruised through the work at a good private school and have a phi beta kappa key. I did not need to try very hard to get As and in fact devoted relatively little time to coursework given that I was actually doing all of it. I am a low level accountant. I mean, it's fine, but I'm not going to set the world on fire at this point. (Although to be fair the world is setting itself, uh, on fire pretty fast.)
A subtext of your questions seems to be "smart people do STEM and less smart people do humanities". Another seems to be "only high prestige careers are worthwhile and high prestige careers are smart people careers". Maybe this is where your college person is at themselves, but it's not a workable way to get through life, especially in our increasingly disastrous and cut-throat society.
posted by Frowner at 11:08 AM on April 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for those who have given explanations about why the professor might have said what she said. It was helpful! I want to point out that being “not gifted” was not a huge blow to my young person’s self esteem. I think they were mostly pissed off and took it as a challenge.
It actually really matters to my young person how different people or groups have different attitudes about “hard work.” I think it matters much less to us adults and certainly it’s not a concern for me personally but for my young person it’s an important issue to them and that’s why I’m bringing it up. I think for them at their age it has a lot to do with being authentic and if it’s authentic to work hard?
Another important thing to my young person, something they are have struggled with, is the importance of grades. They have decided that they really want to be able to fully grasp the material of a particular class, be it STEM or humanities. It makes them unhappy to have to struggle yet barely get by.
I thank everyone for their perspective. Helping a young person grow up is tough, at least for me! My young person has a lot of questions that I’m just not really qualified to answer so I’m asking here. Thanks for your understanding.
posted by GliblyKronor at 11:21 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
It actually really matters to my young person how different people or groups have different attitudes about “hard work.” I think it matters much less to us adults and certainly it’s not a concern for me personally but for my young person it’s an important issue to them and that’s why I’m bringing it up. I think for them at their age it has a lot to do with being authentic and if it’s authentic to work hard?
Another important thing to my young person, something they are have struggled with, is the importance of grades. They have decided that they really want to be able to fully grasp the material of a particular class, be it STEM or humanities. It makes them unhappy to have to struggle yet barely get by.
I thank everyone for their perspective. Helping a young person grow up is tough, at least for me! My young person has a lot of questions that I’m just not really qualified to answer so I’m asking here. Thanks for your understanding.
posted by GliblyKronor at 11:21 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Have you ever come across the concept of "book smart" vs "street smart"?
This stands out: "Another important thing to my young person, something they are have struggled with, is the importance of grades. They have decided that they really want to be able to fully grasp the material of a particular class, be it STEM or humanities. It makes them unhappy to have to struggle yet barely get by."
A "street smart" student realises that passing and even doing excellently in terms of grades, in an academic setting, often is a completely different thing from "fully grasping the material". Some students are better at gaming the assessment rubric and tasks of a class, allowing them to get good grades. They may not have really understood what they are doing, or be able to retain the information. But they did what they needed to do to be able to pass, or even "excel" on paper.
To the "book smart" student like your kid, this is outrageous and unfair. Your kid yearns to know, to understand, to really grasp things. Wonderful, wonderful attributes for a human being to have! Just not actually attributes that serve a person well for gaming college. It might seem really unfair. It might seem like laziness and "lack of effort" are being rewarded. If you study really hard and try to understand everything, shouldn't that be rewarded?
And yeah, in some situations, teachers and other authority figures do like and favour those wily students who know how to game the system. Probably because they remind them of themselves. You don't get to be at the top of a cut-throat field by being an idealist who thinks learning for its own sake is the most important thing.
At some point your kid will either realise the game is rigged and begin to find their own satisfaction in learning for its own sake, and will carry on forging their own paths in life without expecting it to be anointed by spotless authority figures who are fair and Trustworthy arbiters of Everything. They will learn that academic institutions are flawed places and are not meritocracies.
Or, they can continue to be naively clueless and get all tangled up about what it all MEANS about THEM and their FAILURES. Their only "failure" is being a little naive, and perhaps picking the wrong major initially.
If there is a lack of a college background in your family this may be why this thought process is happening. College seems like a place where things SHOULD be fair and learning IS the most important thing. Sadly, often, as you're finding out, this isn't so. But college is really just a tool. Your kid will get their degree and this will open doors for them. They can continue to be their authentic self and learn deeply and engage passionately in whatever path college helps open up for them. But "being the best at college" in itself isn't an indicator of any kind of value other than what it helps you go on to in adult life that you want to do.
posted by Balthamos at 11:40 AM on April 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
This stands out: "Another important thing to my young person, something they are have struggled with, is the importance of grades. They have decided that they really want to be able to fully grasp the material of a particular class, be it STEM or humanities. It makes them unhappy to have to struggle yet barely get by."
A "street smart" student realises that passing and even doing excellently in terms of grades, in an academic setting, often is a completely different thing from "fully grasping the material". Some students are better at gaming the assessment rubric and tasks of a class, allowing them to get good grades. They may not have really understood what they are doing, or be able to retain the information. But they did what they needed to do to be able to pass, or even "excel" on paper.
To the "book smart" student like your kid, this is outrageous and unfair. Your kid yearns to know, to understand, to really grasp things. Wonderful, wonderful attributes for a human being to have! Just not actually attributes that serve a person well for gaming college. It might seem really unfair. It might seem like laziness and "lack of effort" are being rewarded. If you study really hard and try to understand everything, shouldn't that be rewarded?
And yeah, in some situations, teachers and other authority figures do like and favour those wily students who know how to game the system. Probably because they remind them of themselves. You don't get to be at the top of a cut-throat field by being an idealist who thinks learning for its own sake is the most important thing.
At some point your kid will either realise the game is rigged and begin to find their own satisfaction in learning for its own sake, and will carry on forging their own paths in life without expecting it to be anointed by spotless authority figures who are fair and Trustworthy arbiters of Everything. They will learn that academic institutions are flawed places and are not meritocracies.
Or, they can continue to be naively clueless and get all tangled up about what it all MEANS about THEM and their FAILURES. Their only "failure" is being a little naive, and perhaps picking the wrong major initially.
If there is a lack of a college background in your family this may be why this thought process is happening. College seems like a place where things SHOULD be fair and learning IS the most important thing. Sadly, often, as you're finding out, this isn't so. But college is really just a tool. Your kid will get their degree and this will open doors for them. They can continue to be their authentic self and learn deeply and engage passionately in whatever path college helps open up for them. But "being the best at college" in itself isn't an indicator of any kind of value other than what it helps you go on to in adult life that you want to do.
posted by Balthamos at 11:40 AM on April 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
It actually really matters to my young person how different people or groups have different attitudes about “hard work.” I think it matters much less to us adults and certainly it’s not a concern for me personally but for my young person it’s an important issue to them and that’s why I’m bringing it up. I think for them at their age it has a lot to do with being authentic and if it’s authentic to work hard?
I don't think anyone is necessarily saying they sholdn't want to work hard, if that's what they want. Just that there are lots of reasons why others do not value this and that it is not accurate to try to map place hard workers vs. coasters onto some other variable (hs vs. college, stem vs. non-stem). You can recognize "some people value industry and some people don't." without trying to force some sort of correlation onto that.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:48 AM on April 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
I don't think anyone is necessarily saying they sholdn't want to work hard, if that's what they want. Just that there are lots of reasons why others do not value this and that it is not accurate to try to map place hard workers vs. coasters onto some other variable (hs vs. college, stem vs. non-stem). You can recognize "some people value industry and some people don't." without trying to force some sort of correlation onto that.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:48 AM on April 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
I really want to encourage and second the suggestion about that the young person in your life seek out a first-generation student group. Many (most?) high-tuition colleges these days do have resources for such students, and it could be a really useful place to bounce some of these ideas off people similarly situated to be navigating some tricky new waters that have some overlap with class, race, social structures, and work ethics.
I would also suggest not reading too much into an offhanded professorial comment. There's no way to know what's going on there but as one example, it's very easy for me (as someone who works with faculty all day long in a non-classroom-related capacity) to imagine a professor who primarily loves to do research, does some intro-level teaching because it's required but isn't invested in it, has been teaching the same course for ten years and is pretty bored with it, is not thrilled about being back on campus in a classroom during a still-very-much-happening pandemic, and frankly is pretty damn burned out. For that faculty member, who is a composite of many people I know, yeah, they really don't care about the class like their students do. It's not fresh or interesting for them and they feel unsafe and unsupported by their administration and they might say something not-great about it on a bad day. It's shitty to let a student hear that but it's really not a comment about the students or their work ethics at all, it's a cry for a bit of sympathy from a colleague.
Hopefully your student isn't going to encounter many folks in that boat, and will mostly meet enthusiastic, engaged people who genuinely enjoy the teaching part of their work. But some of their professors are just going to be marking time until they can get back to the lab, some don't cover it as well as others, and that's maybe something your student would find useful to understand.
posted by Stacey at 11:51 AM on April 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
I would also suggest not reading too much into an offhanded professorial comment. There's no way to know what's going on there but as one example, it's very easy for me (as someone who works with faculty all day long in a non-classroom-related capacity) to imagine a professor who primarily loves to do research, does some intro-level teaching because it's required but isn't invested in it, has been teaching the same course for ten years and is pretty bored with it, is not thrilled about being back on campus in a classroom during a still-very-much-happening pandemic, and frankly is pretty damn burned out. For that faculty member, who is a composite of many people I know, yeah, they really don't care about the class like their students do. It's not fresh or interesting for them and they feel unsafe and unsupported by their administration and they might say something not-great about it on a bad day. It's shitty to let a student hear that but it's really not a comment about the students or their work ethics at all, it's a cry for a bit of sympathy from a colleague.
Hopefully your student isn't going to encounter many folks in that boat, and will mostly meet enthusiastic, engaged people who genuinely enjoy the teaching part of their work. But some of their professors are just going to be marking time until they can get back to the lab, some don't cover it as well as others, and that's maybe something your student would find useful to understand.
posted by Stacey at 11:51 AM on April 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Your Young Person (YYP) sounds bright and inquisitive and hardworking, which are all good qualities in a student. it sounds like they were accepted to a decent school, and now that they've gotten that far, they're not sure where it all goes. Seems common enough. Lots of students, gifted and otherwise, get to college and realize that their fellow college students are not like their fellow highschool students. They can be competitive in many ways, and since high tuition schools are often competitive to get into, that competition can be more evident. Things like being "gifted" mean a lot less in college, it's grades that make the cut, regardless of how much work goes into them.
YYP should be encouraged to find a field that they are willing to put the effort into succeeding in. It sounds like they enjoy working to get good grades, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Hard work is sometimes its own reward, as well as being a means to an end (a diploma, honors, top of class, etc.).
What other people think is hard to ignore sometimes, but YYP should seek out peers that share their outlook, and seek support from them. Hopefully YYP's school has sought a diverse student body, which would allow them to find kindred spirits and thrive in their company. They may find these in their classes, but I would encourage them to look into clubs and student groups that lean toward leadership and success, as opposed to , say, social clubs or party greek organizations.
Identity can be very hard, but is also ever-changing, so don't be discouraged if this remains an open question.
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:16 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
YYP should be encouraged to find a field that they are willing to put the effort into succeeding in. It sounds like they enjoy working to get good grades, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Hard work is sometimes its own reward, as well as being a means to an end (a diploma, honors, top of class, etc.).
What other people think is hard to ignore sometimes, but YYP should seek out peers that share their outlook, and seek support from them. Hopefully YYP's school has sought a diverse student body, which would allow them to find kindred spirits and thrive in their company. They may find these in their classes, but I would encourage them to look into clubs and student groups that lean toward leadership and success, as opposed to , say, social clubs or party greek organizations.
Identity can be very hard, but is also ever-changing, so don't be discouraged if this remains an open question.
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:16 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I would encourage your young person to think more widely about what it takes to achieve anything - achieve in this context means both to complete any task and to obtain any kind of result, however that is measured in that instance. But one of the criteria, be it formal or informal, is getting on with others and it includes not ruining your mental or physical health in the process.
Any kind of achievement then takes a combination of having mastered something and soft skills and project management skills. And for your efforts to be sustainable for any length of time, it also requires both adequate nutrition and sleep.
People speak of athletes or musicians as gifted. They have skills that may be aided by specific physiology or a subject matter that is in sync with how your brain works. So gift, yes. But to get to any kind of mastery, people have to work to develop that gift further. Athletes, singers, musicians all have to train/practice/learn techniques to utilise these 'gifts'. People who pick up a language easily still have to actively learn it. You may find a concept easy to understand. But applying it appropriately and in context requires much more.
So in addition to whatever gifts you may have and in addition to your willingness to practice your craft/art/skill there are a range of study skills and exam technique that have a significant effect on how well somebody does at college. Coursework typically has formal requirements to meet. If you're asked to write a report and you hand in an essay that may prevent you from getting full marks. If you're asked to write 3k words and your write 500 that's unlikely to be enough. If you've not learned to develop a line of argument, to formally structure your writing to a specific format, to use citations appropriately etc that will make your work difficult to follow and hard to mark and will cost you marks even if you covered the topic adequately. None of these things have anything to do with gifts or hard work. That is just recognising that you're expected to develop a range of skills and knowledge that goes beyond the subject matter at hand.
Likewise, if you can't get on with your fellow students and your professors or tutors you'll find it difficult to get the help you need to complete the work.
Passing exams consistently requires exam technique, not just diligent preparation of topics in the syllabus. If it is a 3 hr exam and you can get max. 100 points each point is equal to 1.8 minutes. You can therefore not spend more than 18 minutes on a 10 point question. That's because you can always go back to that question if you have time left but you can never get an extra 15 minutes at the end because you spent half an hr on that 10 point question and now you're running out of time. Knowing the answer to the last question is irrelevant at that point. You won't get it down and you won't get marks for it.
And then there is project management. You have multiple classes, you may have a job, you may have assorted personal commitments as well. So you have to manage your time well, you have to understand your deadlines. You have to plan how you'll get it all done. You'll need a buffer for unforeseen circumstances and the fact it is human nature to underestimate how long anything takes.
So yes, everybody has different strengths and different backgrounds and different prior knowledge that feed into how easy they find something. Some of us find verbal reasoning very easy, others prefer the structure or maths problems, others like to do experiments. Ideally, our fields of study and our jobs are at least somewhat aligned with our strengths. But every achievement, academic, professional. personal requires us to bring a range of skills to bear. Not all of them are intuitive. We can all stretch ourselves and do things we do not find intuitive. But if most of what you do all day is not intuitive that is exhausting and not sustainable long-term. So identifying your strengths and playing to them helps set you up for success. But success will always require a range of skills to come together. And recognising your strengths and playing to them is not the same as being 'gifted'.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:18 PM on April 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Any kind of achievement then takes a combination of having mastered something and soft skills and project management skills. And for your efforts to be sustainable for any length of time, it also requires both adequate nutrition and sleep.
People speak of athletes or musicians as gifted. They have skills that may be aided by specific physiology or a subject matter that is in sync with how your brain works. So gift, yes. But to get to any kind of mastery, people have to work to develop that gift further. Athletes, singers, musicians all have to train/practice/learn techniques to utilise these 'gifts'. People who pick up a language easily still have to actively learn it. You may find a concept easy to understand. But applying it appropriately and in context requires much more.
So in addition to whatever gifts you may have and in addition to your willingness to practice your craft/art/skill there are a range of study skills and exam technique that have a significant effect on how well somebody does at college. Coursework typically has formal requirements to meet. If you're asked to write a report and you hand in an essay that may prevent you from getting full marks. If you're asked to write 3k words and your write 500 that's unlikely to be enough. If you've not learned to develop a line of argument, to formally structure your writing to a specific format, to use citations appropriately etc that will make your work difficult to follow and hard to mark and will cost you marks even if you covered the topic adequately. None of these things have anything to do with gifts or hard work. That is just recognising that you're expected to develop a range of skills and knowledge that goes beyond the subject matter at hand.
Likewise, if you can't get on with your fellow students and your professors or tutors you'll find it difficult to get the help you need to complete the work.
Passing exams consistently requires exam technique, not just diligent preparation of topics in the syllabus. If it is a 3 hr exam and you can get max. 100 points each point is equal to 1.8 minutes. You can therefore not spend more than 18 minutes on a 10 point question. That's because you can always go back to that question if you have time left but you can never get an extra 15 minutes at the end because you spent half an hr on that 10 point question and now you're running out of time. Knowing the answer to the last question is irrelevant at that point. You won't get it down and you won't get marks for it.
And then there is project management. You have multiple classes, you may have a job, you may have assorted personal commitments as well. So you have to manage your time well, you have to understand your deadlines. You have to plan how you'll get it all done. You'll need a buffer for unforeseen circumstances and the fact it is human nature to underestimate how long anything takes.
So yes, everybody has different strengths and different backgrounds and different prior knowledge that feed into how easy they find something. Some of us find verbal reasoning very easy, others prefer the structure or maths problems, others like to do experiments. Ideally, our fields of study and our jobs are at least somewhat aligned with our strengths. But every achievement, academic, professional. personal requires us to bring a range of skills to bear. Not all of them are intuitive. We can all stretch ourselves and do things we do not find intuitive. But if most of what you do all day is not intuitive that is exhausting and not sustainable long-term. So identifying your strengths and playing to them helps set you up for success. But success will always require a range of skills to come together. And recognising your strengths and playing to them is not the same as being 'gifted'.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:18 PM on April 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
I attended two schools in the Midwest that are known for attracting wealthy suburbanites. I attended a strong public high school in a wealthy suburb. Back when I was in school in the early 2000s, it was not cool to be seen as trying too hard at those schools. There's definitely a subset of society where everything is supposed to look effortless even if you are trying really hard. Of course you have time to go to a frat party or throw a frisbee on the quad, you don't need to study - and you'll just stay up all night studying to make up for that time.
posted by notjustthefish at 1:24 PM on April 26, 2022
posted by notjustthefish at 1:24 PM on April 26, 2022
It's impossible to know without more context what the deal was with the professor's comment. There are definitely types of "trying hard" that can be frustrating for teachers, although probably in different ways than you're thinking:
- trying too hard to get an A rather than to learn or to do better work (i.e. chasing the professor for better grades, nitpicking grades, asking for extra credit opportunities in classes where that's not a thing and then whining about it or refusing to take no for an answer, etc.)
- trying too hard to be impressive (or just coming off that way) by dominating class discussions and not making room for others, or writing 40-page papers when the assignment was for 10 pages (and then expecting the professor to read and comment on and grade all of that)
- trying too hard to convince everyone that you're right
- trying too hard but in the wrong direction, like using as many fancy words as possible to improve your writing instead of working on your argument structure, clarity, transitions, etc.
There will also always be a few random professors (in any field, in my experience) who are just not very good and not very excited anymore about teaching or research and who wind up discouraging or disparaging their students. These are best ignored.
There are also definitely individuals who, like you say, value the idea of not having to try hard as a sign of intelligence. I've been guilty of this; when I was in college (in a total STEM field, and I seriously don't buy the STEM/non-STEM distinction - it's all about what people you happen to be around) I always felt the need to say that I didn't spend a lot of time on problem sets, and in fact to not spend lots of time on them, and so on. This was stupid and did not help me do well, but we all have our insecurities and this was an expression of mine. For other people, possibly like some of your family members, it can also come from a place of learned helplessness or 'if you don't try you won't be disappointed' or 'if you try hard and succeed, then you'll leave us behind' or 'if you try hard and succeed, you'll make us feel like it's our fault we're not doing well', or a whole giant host of other reasons.
I think what your kid needs to do, now and at all points in life, is (a) find people to surround themselves with who make it easier for them to be the kinds of people they want to be; (b) take note of individual data points but learn how not to generalize too much from them, and keep in mind that there are often reasons and origin stories for the behaviors they encounter beyond what they can imagine; and (c), accept that every single person in this world has other people who think they're too something or not something enough, and that you can't make everyone happy.
posted by trig at 1:26 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
- trying too hard to get an A rather than to learn or to do better work (i.e. chasing the professor for better grades, nitpicking grades, asking for extra credit opportunities in classes where that's not a thing and then whining about it or refusing to take no for an answer, etc.)
- trying too hard to be impressive (or just coming off that way) by dominating class discussions and not making room for others, or writing 40-page papers when the assignment was for 10 pages (and then expecting the professor to read and comment on and grade all of that)
- trying too hard to convince everyone that you're right
- trying too hard but in the wrong direction, like using as many fancy words as possible to improve your writing instead of working on your argument structure, clarity, transitions, etc.
There will also always be a few random professors (in any field, in my experience) who are just not very good and not very excited anymore about teaching or research and who wind up discouraging or disparaging their students. These are best ignored.
There are also definitely individuals who, like you say, value the idea of not having to try hard as a sign of intelligence. I've been guilty of this; when I was in college (in a total STEM field, and I seriously don't buy the STEM/non-STEM distinction - it's all about what people you happen to be around) I always felt the need to say that I didn't spend a lot of time on problem sets, and in fact to not spend lots of time on them, and so on. This was stupid and did not help me do well, but we all have our insecurities and this was an expression of mine. For other people, possibly like some of your family members, it can also come from a place of learned helplessness or 'if you don't try you won't be disappointed' or 'if you try hard and succeed, then you'll leave us behind' or 'if you try hard and succeed, you'll make us feel like it's our fault we're not doing well', or a whole giant host of other reasons.
I think what your kid needs to do, now and at all points in life, is (a) find people to surround themselves with who make it easier for them to be the kinds of people they want to be; (b) take note of individual data points but learn how not to generalize too much from them, and keep in mind that there are often reasons and origin stories for the behaviors they encounter beyond what they can imagine; and (c), accept that every single person in this world has other people who think they're too something or not something enough, and that you can't make everyone happy.
posted by trig at 1:26 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'll add that if you really want a division into two groups of people, you can think about it as "people who celebrate other people and build them up", and "people who try to knock others down". The latter behavior is often not intentional, and it can change over time, and sometimes people can do both of these things, but it can be a good thing to think about when considering whether someone's company is good for you. You want to look for people who'll celebrate and acknowledge you for your effort and celebrate and acknowledge you for your talent and celebrate your luck, not people who'll try to play down the value or importance of any of those. People who are happy for you to do well.
posted by trig at 1:34 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by trig at 1:34 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm going to guess that this expensive school has excellent resources for mental health support. These are big questions and might more easily be explored with a neutral party, like a therapist, rather than a loving adult like a parent or older sibling or close relative. It sounds like they are reflecting on all sorts of things from childhood (I too recall the hurt of not being in the formal gifted and talented program even though, when I was with those kids in other classes, I performed the same as them) to current experiences and struggling to move past a binary of "try hard" versus "don't try all that hard," and race and identity and perhaps being a scholarship student are all in the mix.
I'd also say that perhaps not being in the gifted program motivated kiddo to work so hard they were top of the class in 7th and 8th grade. Like, there might be a cause and effect they haven't quite grokked.
There's definitely something here about moving past the idea of letting others define you and trying to get some more confidence in your own interests and way of being in the world.
So, nudge your kiddo to the campus counseling center. I bet lots of students there are exploring these issues and the counselors might have some great insight.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:41 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'd also say that perhaps not being in the gifted program motivated kiddo to work so hard they were top of the class in 7th and 8th grade. Like, there might be a cause and effect they haven't quite grokked.
There's definitely something here about moving past the idea of letting others define you and trying to get some more confidence in your own interests and way of being in the world.
So, nudge your kiddo to the campus counseling center. I bet lots of students there are exploring these issues and the counselors might have some great insight.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:41 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think it might be good for your student to re-balance things a little in favor of pleasure, enjoyment and widening of horizons. Not that they should give up their work ethic-- it doesn't sound like they are in danger of that anyway. But they shouldn't forget to ask, when choosing a course or what to do over the weekend, "What do I want out of this? What does this offer me?"
One of my college professors used to claim that you pay about as much for one class session as for a Broadway theater ticket. His math sounded a little squishy, and it may be even less accurate now. But he had a point: college is a terrific opportunity and it is four years of your life and you should feel like you took advantage, you know? It's also a hard and chaotic time for a lot of people but you should do at least one really cool thing a week, a concert or a museum or an environmental activity.
posted by BibiRose at 2:10 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
One of my college professors used to claim that you pay about as much for one class session as for a Broadway theater ticket. His math sounded a little squishy, and it may be even less accurate now. But he had a point: college is a terrific opportunity and it is four years of your life and you should feel like you took advantage, you know? It's also a hard and chaotic time for a lot of people but you should do at least one really cool thing a week, a concert or a museum or an environmental activity.
posted by BibiRose at 2:10 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You and your young friend might profit from learning about the ideal of "effortless perfection" amongst college students. There's lots written about this, but here's an example article. This problematic phenomenon -- which idealizes being academically and socially successful, accomplished, attractive, etc., without apparent difficulty -- is widespread amongst college students, I understand, not really associated with any one discipline.
posted by reren at 2:14 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by reren at 2:14 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
As a former gifted student myself the thing that really helped me was realizing that intelligence has no bearing on how happy and successful a person is in life. Took burning out at college and changing majors to figure this out.
I visualize it as a Venn where happy and intelligent overlap a little in the middle.
For my own personal sanity I adopted the motto, “Bs make degrees” as a sort of personal permission to slack off sometimes. Of course, some people really like the challenge of getting the best possible grades and that’s great if they are finding it rewarding but it’s also okay to step back and focus on other things.
posted by MadMadam at 3:05 PM on April 26, 2022
I visualize it as a Venn where happy and intelligent overlap a little in the middle.
For my own personal sanity I adopted the motto, “Bs make degrees” as a sort of personal permission to slack off sometimes. Of course, some people really like the challenge of getting the best possible grades and that’s great if they are finding it rewarding but it’s also okay to step back and focus on other things.
posted by MadMadam at 3:05 PM on April 26, 2022
There's one possible interpretation of YYP's effort/grade focus that might worry me a bit: if YYP is thinking "if I put in X amount of effort, I automatically deserve Y grade." Because no, it doesn't actually work that way -- I am up-front with my programming newbies that once they've stared at buggy code for a while, the best thing they can do is walk away and come back to it later, because staring at it for lengthy amounts of time just doesn't help.
I've had students try to argue me out of low grades on the basis of spending soooooooooo many hours working on the assignment. At some point (I tell them, as kindly as I can), in pretty much any discipline, effort is not a substitute for doing the right things the right way.
Now, as this thread demonstrates, there are lots of ways to read what YYP's said, so I may be wildly off here. But if this is it, please try to get across as kindly as you can that effort isn't the only variable in play.
posted by humbug at 4:34 PM on April 26, 2022
I've had students try to argue me out of low grades on the basis of spending soooooooooo many hours working on the assignment. At some point (I tell them, as kindly as I can), in pretty much any discipline, effort is not a substitute for doing the right things the right way.
Now, as this thread demonstrates, there are lots of ways to read what YYP's said, so I may be wildly off here. But if this is it, please try to get across as kindly as you can that effort isn't the only variable in play.
posted by humbug at 4:34 PM on April 26, 2022
Then my young person overheard a professor in less “hard” discipline make a disparaging remark about how the students cared more about the class than the professor herself. The implication was that they were trying too hard...This is confusing to my young person because it is not an attitude they would have expected to encounter at a very high tuition college (where our family pays no tuition). How much of it is class or race related?...Also relevant is that my young person looks Asian...
I think there are definitely race and class based things happening here, specifically that at many/most elite American colleges with a "liberal arts" bent, undergraduates are supposed to pretend to be there ONLY for a pure love of learning and to "explore the curriculum" and to be stunned with wonder at being in a place where you can study Occitan AND Renaissance sculpture AND trends in young adult poetry all at once. They are supposed to pretend this even if they worked their butts off to get in and even if 30% of these Occitan-speaking marble-sculpting youth poets go to work for McKinsey two days after graduation. Part of this culture involves deriding STEM as "too rote" and business/finance as "too career focused" even if we all need doctors and use computers and even if the college is just a glorified networking opportunity for rich people.
Another part is that students are expected to "care more about learning than grades" and to go along with the polite fiction that grades are a declasse hindrance to "real learning" (even if the college gives academic honors and scholarships based on grades, and uses grades as one way to decide which students to nominate for prestigious opportunities, and even if professionals with graduate degrees employed as teachers should probably be able to design a course in which the grades earned at least roughly mirror student learning). In this environment, "caring more about the course than the professor" means the students are more focused on their grade than on "taking risks to grow." This can mean anything from nitpicking over grades on individual assignments to making "safe" arguments in papers. Your Young Person is also fighting against the stereotype that Asian students are mechanical grade-grubbers who don't love learning for its own sake. I think one reason your Young Person is so distressed by these issues is because the cultural expectations around them at elite American colleges are inherently contradictory, bizarre, and illogical. It doesn't make sense to them because it doesn't actually make sense.
I think the suggestions of finding an AAPI affinity group and a low-income affinity group on campus are excellent ones, because they will be populated by students who understand the precise way that these particular contradictions play out on this particular campus.
It sounds like you have a lovely Young Person who cares deeply about their education, which is a credit to you both, no matter how discouraging education feels right at this moment.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 4:56 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think there are definitely race and class based things happening here, specifically that at many/most elite American colleges with a "liberal arts" bent, undergraduates are supposed to pretend to be there ONLY for a pure love of learning and to "explore the curriculum" and to be stunned with wonder at being in a place where you can study Occitan AND Renaissance sculpture AND trends in young adult poetry all at once. They are supposed to pretend this even if they worked their butts off to get in and even if 30% of these Occitan-speaking marble-sculpting youth poets go to work for McKinsey two days after graduation. Part of this culture involves deriding STEM as "too rote" and business/finance as "too career focused" even if we all need doctors and use computers and even if the college is just a glorified networking opportunity for rich people.
Another part is that students are expected to "care more about learning than grades" and to go along with the polite fiction that grades are a declasse hindrance to "real learning" (even if the college gives academic honors and scholarships based on grades, and uses grades as one way to decide which students to nominate for prestigious opportunities, and even if professionals with graduate degrees employed as teachers should probably be able to design a course in which the grades earned at least roughly mirror student learning). In this environment, "caring more about the course than the professor" means the students are more focused on their grade than on "taking risks to grow." This can mean anything from nitpicking over grades on individual assignments to making "safe" arguments in papers. Your Young Person is also fighting against the stereotype that Asian students are mechanical grade-grubbers who don't love learning for its own sake. I think one reason your Young Person is so distressed by these issues is because the cultural expectations around them at elite American colleges are inherently contradictory, bizarre, and illogical. It doesn't make sense to them because it doesn't actually make sense.
I think the suggestions of finding an AAPI affinity group and a low-income affinity group on campus are excellent ones, because they will be populated by students who understand the precise way that these particular contradictions play out on this particular campus.
It sounds like you have a lovely Young Person who cares deeply about their education, which is a credit to you both, no matter how discouraging education feels right at this moment.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 4:56 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Working at a university similar to the one your friend may be attending, the prof's comment reads to me like the prof had one too many conversations about how to get 2.7 more points in order to up someone's average to an A-, and one too few conversations about the material, or made one too many jokes in class that got a blank-eyed stare. I've had weeks like that, where a lack of connection with the young people I am working with feels pretty crummy (and my degrees and career are in STEM). It's frustrating. Professors are humans, and they usually like to learn, and are most delighted to spend time with people who like to learn, too.
Putting forth a sincere effort to achieve your goals--"hard skills"-- are important. Empathy extended to others--"soft skills"-- are important. The balance between the two is a meaty bone for your young person to gnaw on, and I'd argue that the gnawing itself is a valuable exercise, even if it's not graded. :)
I'll also point out that sometimes the line between "working hard" and "spinning your wheels in the mud" can be a thin one, and also that "fully grasping the material" and "getting a high grade" are by no means guaranteed to be perfectly correlated. I have given a prof a "correct" answer that I disagreed with to get a good grade. At least once, I was right. (It was in PChem, actually. In grad school I found out why the prof was wrong and sent them an email with references because I was still mad. With more wisdom, I'm embarrassed that my approach as a full adult was of the nanny-nanny-boo-boo variety, but at the time I still thought my brain was my only valuable feature. Hard skills, soft skills.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:04 PM on April 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Putting forth a sincere effort to achieve your goals--"hard skills"-- are important. Empathy extended to others--"soft skills"-- are important. The balance between the two is a meaty bone for your young person to gnaw on, and I'd argue that the gnawing itself is a valuable exercise, even if it's not graded. :)
I'll also point out that sometimes the line between "working hard" and "spinning your wheels in the mud" can be a thin one, and also that "fully grasping the material" and "getting a high grade" are by no means guaranteed to be perfectly correlated. I have given a prof a "correct" answer that I disagreed with to get a good grade. At least once, I was right. (It was in PChem, actually. In grad school I found out why the prof was wrong and sent them an email with references because I was still mad. With more wisdom, I'm embarrassed that my approach as a full adult was of the nanny-nanny-boo-boo variety, but at the time I still thought my brain was my only valuable feature. Hard skills, soft skills.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:04 PM on April 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
College is confusing. As someone who has taught both in the humanities, in arts and is now in STEM, I have read both your questions twice because I feel I should be qualified to answer, but I am not sure I understand them. I'll try to be a bit systematic in my not-entirely understanding response.
"Gifted" is a category that doesn't really apply in college, from the point of view of the professors. We are obviously aware that some of the students have backgrounds from "gifted" programs, but in a college class the relevant issue is how you perform there. I think I can recognize that some kids find it baffling/frustrating that they are no longer automatically recognized as special, and that they cope with that in different ways. There are elite programs in some colleges and universities, but they are a different beast from those in middle school and high school. They all require hard work.
It has been interesting for me to meet the different cultures in the different fields. I don't feel I can generalize, but I can say that each of them prize high achievers and hard work. I think it is an existential, human thing that people who make it seem effortless to achieve excellent results are valued. But I know no high achievers who do not put in the hours.
In my experience, "effort" is valued in all fields. But obviously, as many have stated, "effort" looks different in the different fields. I hope I haven't done it in any context where students could overhear it, but I distinctly remember discussing a (humanities) graduate student who did everything perfectly, but somehow totally missed the point. How could we guide this student? They were doing everything correctly and working hard, but somehow not understanding the core issues. How could we help that student achieve their goals? Our intention was purely to help them, but I will admit we were frustrated.
Professors want students to succeed. Anything else would be absurd. But professors are hired on the basis of their academic profile, not their pedagogical skills. They are also human. My very good colleague managed to appear racist, sexist and ableist in his first lecture in the first semester last year. I don't know what happened, but obviously, more than half the students felt excluded and never discovered that he is actually very warm and inclusive and interested in every single student in every class. I will say that he was suffering from long COVID, which might have led him to make bad judgements while preparing his lecture. Which again underlines that professors are humans with their own issues. Don't put too much in their offhand remarks.
In that same class, which we shared, it was near impossible to fail -- good! But it was also totally impossible to achieve an A. We didn't design that course structure, and it will be changed now. But it demonstrates an other point: sometimes there are technical/structural aspects that neither professors nor students can influence directly and all have to work around. That must seem very strange to a new college student.
Maybe it helps to remember that a college or university is also just a workplace. Just like a factory or a administration office. There are all the usual workplace issues, and all the usual characters. For the students, their time in college feels immensely important, and everything is assigned with meaning. For the faculty, it's just a job and a lot of it is meaningless and frustrating.
Someone mentioned above that some professors are mostly preoccupied with research and only teach because they must. I'm not sure how much that applies at the college level, but regardless, it is really relevant to remember that teaching is a job, not a calling, and some people do not enjoy it.
My best advice is to hang on. Everyone is frustrated and worried during their first couple of years in college. It's OK.
posted by mumimor at 6:46 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
"Gifted" is a category that doesn't really apply in college, from the point of view of the professors. We are obviously aware that some of the students have backgrounds from "gifted" programs, but in a college class the relevant issue is how you perform there. I think I can recognize that some kids find it baffling/frustrating that they are no longer automatically recognized as special, and that they cope with that in different ways. There are elite programs in some colleges and universities, but they are a different beast from those in middle school and high school. They all require hard work.
It has been interesting for me to meet the different cultures in the different fields. I don't feel I can generalize, but I can say that each of them prize high achievers and hard work. I think it is an existential, human thing that people who make it seem effortless to achieve excellent results are valued. But I know no high achievers who do not put in the hours.
In my experience, "effort" is valued in all fields. But obviously, as many have stated, "effort" looks different in the different fields. I hope I haven't done it in any context where students could overhear it, but I distinctly remember discussing a (humanities) graduate student who did everything perfectly, but somehow totally missed the point. How could we guide this student? They were doing everything correctly and working hard, but somehow not understanding the core issues. How could we help that student achieve their goals? Our intention was purely to help them, but I will admit we were frustrated.
Professors want students to succeed. Anything else would be absurd. But professors are hired on the basis of their academic profile, not their pedagogical skills. They are also human. My very good colleague managed to appear racist, sexist and ableist in his first lecture in the first semester last year. I don't know what happened, but obviously, more than half the students felt excluded and never discovered that he is actually very warm and inclusive and interested in every single student in every class. I will say that he was suffering from long COVID, which might have led him to make bad judgements while preparing his lecture. Which again underlines that professors are humans with their own issues. Don't put too much in their offhand remarks.
In that same class, which we shared, it was near impossible to fail -- good! But it was also totally impossible to achieve an A. We didn't design that course structure, and it will be changed now. But it demonstrates an other point: sometimes there are technical/structural aspects that neither professors nor students can influence directly and all have to work around. That must seem very strange to a new college student.
Maybe it helps to remember that a college or university is also just a workplace. Just like a factory or a administration office. There are all the usual workplace issues, and all the usual characters. For the students, their time in college feels immensely important, and everything is assigned with meaning. For the faculty, it's just a job and a lot of it is meaningless and frustrating.
Someone mentioned above that some professors are mostly preoccupied with research and only teach because they must. I'm not sure how much that applies at the college level, but regardless, it is really relevant to remember that teaching is a job, not a calling, and some people do not enjoy it.
My best advice is to hang on. Everyone is frustrated and worried during their first couple of years in college. It's OK.
posted by mumimor at 6:46 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is maybe a total tangent and if so I apologize. To me a lot of the value of college was learning different ways to approach questions. Those have stayed with me long after I've forgotten a lot of the content.
posted by sepviva at 7:06 PM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by sepviva at 7:06 PM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Then my young person overheard a professor in less “hard” discipline make a disparaging remark about how the students cared more about the class than the professor herself. The implication was that they were trying too hard.
A sign of mature judgment is not running at full speed all of the time. Sometimes there really is only X amount of work to be done, and wiping yourself out trying to do 2X is a foolish way to spend time when you likely have other classes to attend to.
My father (a sadist engineering professor) used to give a first semester midterm that had far more problems on it than anyone could solve. His goal was to teach students to prioritize and work carefully on the problems they could solve. Many young overachievers died on that hill — parental complaints were common — because they tried too hard. Sometimes it’s about trying just hard enough.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:22 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
A sign of mature judgment is not running at full speed all of the time. Sometimes there really is only X amount of work to be done, and wiping yourself out trying to do 2X is a foolish way to spend time when you likely have other classes to attend to.
My father (a sadist engineering professor) used to give a first semester midterm that had far more problems on it than anyone could solve. His goal was to teach students to prioritize and work carefully on the problems they could solve. Many young overachievers died on that hill — parental complaints were common — because they tried too hard. Sometimes it’s about trying just hard enough.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:22 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't understand the hang-up about "giftedness". I expect the vast majority of people never concern themselves with that. They just carry on. I expect people who aren't "gifted" find success in vast majority of fields, if not all of them.
posted by NotLost at 7:32 PM on April 26, 2022
posted by NotLost at 7:32 PM on April 26, 2022
I had always done well in math and science classes in high school, better than softer classes, and I enjoyed them just as much. And then in college I took a somewhat difficult math class—the first in a series designed for STEM majors. It felt like fun puzzles. I got an A and when I looked at the curve I saw I’d gotten the 4th or 5th highest grade in the class of about 100-200 people. And then I never took another math class again because I convinced myself that the gap between my score and the highest score in the class was too wide, and I wasn’t a math genius. Obviously I realize now how crazy that was. But I was sure that I could never catch up to someone’s natural math abilities. Meanwhile, it didn’t bother me when I didn’t get the highest grade in a humanities or social science class because I didn’t think anyone could be naturally gifted at those fields. Please please just make sure that your young person isn’t making decisions based on the thoughts that a younger version of me had.
posted by loulou718 at 12:36 AM on April 27, 2022
posted by loulou718 at 12:36 AM on April 27, 2022
What are some ways for my young person to understand these issues and refine their identity?
So I went to an elite high school for gifted people and here are two things to know about that experience:
1. When you move from one pool to another, things change. Our first day assembly, the headmaster got up and said "You were all at the top of your classes in public school. Now look at the 72 of you. In each class there will only be one top student. So get used to being in the middle or even the bottom." That didn't actually change any of our innate abilities.
FYI our most common ability: To study well and do well on multiple-choice + essay exams, since getting into the school involved multiple-choice + essay exams. :)
2. "Gifted children" do not always or even frequently become gifted adults. ALL of us were rewarded in high school for trying hard -- that was the hallmark of that school, standing on chairs with our hands up to answer questions. ALL of us had to learn to, excuse me, f-ing shut up at work. (Except maybe the lifetime academics...lol.)
The most gifted person I know committed suicide.
Here are a few things for your young person:
1. I don't understand the emphasis on area of study. Like, what difference will it make in their life to do half-STEM vs. non-STEM? Is there something they are aiming for specifically or is this a simple classification thing. Go walk down a city street and identify the adults who studied STEM vs. half-STEM...you can't. So I'm confused about why this is even an issue??? Is it about getting accepted to med school?
2. Are the try-hard comments hurting because they have other needs they are neglecting? For example, have they sought out friends or activities that are non-academic? Because when I was in university, I felt a bit out of place until I made some friends who also tried hard and we hung out in the library together.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:13 AM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
So I went to an elite high school for gifted people and here are two things to know about that experience:
1. When you move from one pool to another, things change. Our first day assembly, the headmaster got up and said "You were all at the top of your classes in public school. Now look at the 72 of you. In each class there will only be one top student. So get used to being in the middle or even the bottom." That didn't actually change any of our innate abilities.
FYI our most common ability: To study well and do well on multiple-choice + essay exams, since getting into the school involved multiple-choice + essay exams. :)
2. "Gifted children" do not always or even frequently become gifted adults. ALL of us were rewarded in high school for trying hard -- that was the hallmark of that school, standing on chairs with our hands up to answer questions. ALL of us had to learn to, excuse me, f-ing shut up at work. (Except maybe the lifetime academics...lol.)
The most gifted person I know committed suicide.
Here are a few things for your young person:
1. I don't understand the emphasis on area of study. Like, what difference will it make in their life to do half-STEM vs. non-STEM? Is there something they are aiming for specifically or is this a simple classification thing. Go walk down a city street and identify the adults who studied STEM vs. half-STEM...you can't. So I'm confused about why this is even an issue??? Is it about getting accepted to med school?
2. Are the try-hard comments hurting because they have other needs they are neglecting? For example, have they sought out friends or activities that are non-academic? Because when I was in university, I felt a bit out of place until I made some friends who also tried hard and we hung out in the library together.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:13 AM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Is it about getting accepted to med school?
If it is about a vocational thing like this, there are other ways to fulfill the requirements. You can take the challenging science courses one at a time, in the summers. Some people find that much easier than doing it as part of a full schedule. You can do a post-baccalaureate program. You can apply to the FlexMed program at Mount Sinai if you are still a freshman or sophomore. I have friends and family who majored in the humanities and became MDs by one of these paths or another. Yes, some of them add to the already daunting time and money commitment to become a doctor, but on the other hand, you are not spending your college years struggling with classes where you may just need a little more time.
posted by BibiRose at 6:18 AM on April 27, 2022
If it is about a vocational thing like this, there are other ways to fulfill the requirements. You can take the challenging science courses one at a time, in the summers. Some people find that much easier than doing it as part of a full schedule. You can do a post-baccalaureate program. You can apply to the FlexMed program at Mount Sinai if you are still a freshman or sophomore. I have friends and family who majored in the humanities and became MDs by one of these paths or another. Yes, some of them add to the already daunting time and money commitment to become a doctor, but on the other hand, you are not spending your college years struggling with classes where you may just need a little more time.
posted by BibiRose at 6:18 AM on April 27, 2022
Natural "talent" will only take you so far, and in fields like writing although the most obviously talented will shine brightly at first if they don't have the discipline to overcome their weaknesses — and then keep writing — they will never build an important body of work. I think that's true in most fields. There are always those who start with advantages, but that doesn't mean they are enough to carry them professionally over the long term. What the truly accomplished achieve, they achieve through discipline: the ability to generate ideas, keep up with their peers, learn the history of their field, approach their work from multiple directions, and analyze when they fall short — and then rewrite, redo or just throw the whole damned thing out — and start all over again. It’s that process which these discussions of “giftedness” or in an earlier era "genius," miss. They are transitory judgments that mask how achievement really works, and beg the question of whether the terms are meaningful or accurate.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:47 AM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Violet Blue at 6:47 AM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
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I'm going to encourage your young person to challenge this perception of themselves. My daughter wasn't in gifted programs in school but knew that she wanted, more than anything, to go into conservation. The university that she chose had a biology degree program that fit her desires. She struggled MIGHTILY with chemistry. She HATED it. But she had to take four semesters of chem for her degree. She buckled down, got a tutor, went to study groups, and passed all four semesters. Was she at the top of the class? Heck no! Did that bother her? Also heck no! Chem is not her strong suit and that is okay. Most people don't have a "natural talent" at academics. I know it doesn't seem that way but it is absolutely true. Your young person needs to understand that, while it may seem that their classmates are just breezing along, most likely they are working very hard (despite what that professor said; also WTF? totally inappropriate) to get the grades they're getting.
And one more thing: your young person would do VERY WELL to stop worrying what other people think and get on with doing what they want to do. I know it's incredibly hard to do at that age but it is so, so freeing to just stop thinking about what other people think.
posted by cooker girl at 10:31 AM on April 26, 2022 [16 favorites]