MIKA's "Grace Kelly" but as an AskMeta Question
August 2, 2020 8:41 PM Subscribe
How do you deal with being openly disliked when you've grown up so used to people pleasing/basing self worth on being liked? And does being disliked mean you've done something horribly wrong?
[Yikes, I feel deep shame and guilt even writing this askme post. I'm hoping to find others who have been in my shoes though and have somehow figured it out. It seems like such a common thing, to want to be liked by everyone, but it's not realistic--I know. I think I'm so bothered because I'm ruminating on it and I also have a reminder of it daily because of my neighbors. ]
Essentially, my partner and I moved into this building a year and some change ago. We ran into a new neighbor who was super friendly, and he was very gung ho about turning our apartment building into a dorm (his words, not mine)--by having parties, neighbor get togethers, everyone in one big group chat. It sounded great because we were new to town too! We met a group of neighbors and it did start to feel like a college dorm, but it got cliquey quite quickly.
And I started to get really uncomfortable at these parties. Either my queerness was brought into question ("Your partner is a man, how can you be queer" or "bisexuality is just you not making up your mind") or I plain just didn't vibe with the whole group. I was friendly but drained. I knew the group liked me, because I kept getting invited to things, but I kept turning them down over time because I just felt less and less like myself when I hung out with them. I felt like I was in high school again and I just didn't want to put in so much of my energy into that group. They had parties every weekend.
Over time, I stopped getting invitations and then my partner did as well (understandably! I get someone saying no over and over again sends a message, but I do feel guilty if I was the reason my partner stopped getting invited.) However, I still was friendly when I saw them and said hello and did chit chat in the hallways, or I would say yes occasionally when it was a birthday party because that felt more significant to go to.
Since quarantine, they (the group of neighbors) have been having huge parties. I mean, we can hear them from our place. Three weeks ago they had another one. We got one final invite and we had to say no, because....COVID. The neighbor we originally met, who is the social curator of the neighbor group, apparently jokingly said to my partner: "Wow, buttonedup really doesn't like us, huh?" I am guessing he said that because I'm the one who says no, while my partner is super friendly and has said yes to invites more than I have (pre-COVID.)
Ever since then, the neighbors have been super cold to me (but not my partner.) I'll say hi, and they'll ignore me. I'll wave and they'll stare and then turn away. If my partner is talking to one of them in the lobby and I come through the door, they'll turn away and stop talking. It is quite weird. I thought I imagined the first few times, but now my partner has commented on it. And it does feel like I'm back in a dorm! A high school dorm. We are in a perpetual episode of Degrassi: COVID.
I feel terrible. In a way. I also am trying to tell myself that it's ok to not vibe with everyone, that it's not cool to have people dismiss my identity, and they are all older than me (in their early 30s or late 30s) so I feel like they would be smarter than me with the COVID things. But I am historically a people pleaser. I have always put others needs or desires before mine, to a fault and I hate it. I had to do it for my parents and my siblings and I did that for so long to survive in a town where we were the only POC. I was bullied a lot as a kid so I just became super pleasant and funny and easy going to combat it. So I became great at being pleasant and liked and molding myself to others.
I do know that I am genuinely likable, even in the past few years I've been better at not being so moldable to others and just being...me. I have many friends with mutual love and I get along with many people. It took me a while to believe I was genuinely likable--I still get a little surprised when I get invited to parties or to join groups or get introduced to new friends. Thinking back to times I have been genuinely disliked (and I knew it) were few and I probably made it worse because I didn't know how to speak up for myself and was very avoidant. That was my bad, that was back in college days. I know logically that I will never be universally liked, but this kind of behavior from neighbors who don't like me is making me fixate on if I'm just an unlikeable, awful person to have a whole group of 5 people be so cold towards me. It maybe wouldn't feel so awful if I didn't run into them daily at the mail room.
I go over and over in my head what I could've done wrong (besides turning down the invitations, which is the only interaction I can think of, because I have hardly interacted with them in the past few months beyond chit chat.) I mean, once a neighbor asked me to come over to vent about a horrible thing that happened to some of our mutual friends, and I was so confused because we weren't close and I thought they disliked me. They told me that they couldn't confide in the other neighbors, but I seemed like I would listen. Then after that they continued to give me the cold shoulder. I was thrown for a loop.
Part of me also is learning to speak up. With therapy, I've gotten much better at saying "Hey... So, X thing bothers me. Can we talk about it?" or drawing boundaries at my last toxic job (where name calling was the norm) by confronting bullying behavior. I still don't love confrontation. In my fantasy, I would love to see a neighbor in the mail room, they give me the cold shoulder, and I just plainly but nicely say "Hey, is something up? You seem to be acting strange around me." But I don't think that would actually do anything.
I am just trying to understand if I've done something horrible (is turning down invitations but just being generally friendly means it's understandable to be ignored to this extent? Was a rumor or misunderstanding started? I don't know. Maybe they think I'm being snooty by saying no so often.) and would like to self reflect and do better if so. Sadly, the fear of being disliked carries a lot of weight for me. I also would like to know if I did what any average human being who doesn't really want to be close friends with their neighbors did.
So, if I had to sum it up, what's the best way to "be ok" with being disliked? And should I speak up and ask what's up to at least clear the air on my side (I'm leaning towards no...)? How can I best self reflect on this to make sure I'm not being a bad person without beating myself up?
(Yes, I am in therapy! We are talking about this at my next appointment :D )
[Yikes, I feel deep shame and guilt even writing this askme post. I'm hoping to find others who have been in my shoes though and have somehow figured it out. It seems like such a common thing, to want to be liked by everyone, but it's not realistic--I know. I think I'm so bothered because I'm ruminating on it and I also have a reminder of it daily because of my neighbors. ]
Essentially, my partner and I moved into this building a year and some change ago. We ran into a new neighbor who was super friendly, and he was very gung ho about turning our apartment building into a dorm (his words, not mine)--by having parties, neighbor get togethers, everyone in one big group chat. It sounded great because we were new to town too! We met a group of neighbors and it did start to feel like a college dorm, but it got cliquey quite quickly.
And I started to get really uncomfortable at these parties. Either my queerness was brought into question ("Your partner is a man, how can you be queer" or "bisexuality is just you not making up your mind") or I plain just didn't vibe with the whole group. I was friendly but drained. I knew the group liked me, because I kept getting invited to things, but I kept turning them down over time because I just felt less and less like myself when I hung out with them. I felt like I was in high school again and I just didn't want to put in so much of my energy into that group. They had parties every weekend.
Over time, I stopped getting invitations and then my partner did as well (understandably! I get someone saying no over and over again sends a message, but I do feel guilty if I was the reason my partner stopped getting invited.) However, I still was friendly when I saw them and said hello and did chit chat in the hallways, or I would say yes occasionally when it was a birthday party because that felt more significant to go to.
Since quarantine, they (the group of neighbors) have been having huge parties. I mean, we can hear them from our place. Three weeks ago they had another one. We got one final invite and we had to say no, because....COVID. The neighbor we originally met, who is the social curator of the neighbor group, apparently jokingly said to my partner: "Wow, buttonedup really doesn't like us, huh?" I am guessing he said that because I'm the one who says no, while my partner is super friendly and has said yes to invites more than I have (pre-COVID.)
Ever since then, the neighbors have been super cold to me (but not my partner.) I'll say hi, and they'll ignore me. I'll wave and they'll stare and then turn away. If my partner is talking to one of them in the lobby and I come through the door, they'll turn away and stop talking. It is quite weird. I thought I imagined the first few times, but now my partner has commented on it. And it does feel like I'm back in a dorm! A high school dorm. We are in a perpetual episode of Degrassi: COVID.
I feel terrible. In a way. I also am trying to tell myself that it's ok to not vibe with everyone, that it's not cool to have people dismiss my identity, and they are all older than me (in their early 30s or late 30s) so I feel like they would be smarter than me with the COVID things. But I am historically a people pleaser. I have always put others needs or desires before mine, to a fault and I hate it. I had to do it for my parents and my siblings and I did that for so long to survive in a town where we were the only POC. I was bullied a lot as a kid so I just became super pleasant and funny and easy going to combat it. So I became great at being pleasant and liked and molding myself to others.
I do know that I am genuinely likable, even in the past few years I've been better at not being so moldable to others and just being...me. I have many friends with mutual love and I get along with many people. It took me a while to believe I was genuinely likable--I still get a little surprised when I get invited to parties or to join groups or get introduced to new friends. Thinking back to times I have been genuinely disliked (and I knew it) were few and I probably made it worse because I didn't know how to speak up for myself and was very avoidant. That was my bad, that was back in college days. I know logically that I will never be universally liked, but this kind of behavior from neighbors who don't like me is making me fixate on if I'm just an unlikeable, awful person to have a whole group of 5 people be so cold towards me. It maybe wouldn't feel so awful if I didn't run into them daily at the mail room.
I go over and over in my head what I could've done wrong (besides turning down the invitations, which is the only interaction I can think of, because I have hardly interacted with them in the past few months beyond chit chat.) I mean, once a neighbor asked me to come over to vent about a horrible thing that happened to some of our mutual friends, and I was so confused because we weren't close and I thought they disliked me. They told me that they couldn't confide in the other neighbors, but I seemed like I would listen. Then after that they continued to give me the cold shoulder. I was thrown for a loop.
Part of me also is learning to speak up. With therapy, I've gotten much better at saying "Hey... So, X thing bothers me. Can we talk about it?" or drawing boundaries at my last toxic job (where name calling was the norm) by confronting bullying behavior. I still don't love confrontation. In my fantasy, I would love to see a neighbor in the mail room, they give me the cold shoulder, and I just plainly but nicely say "Hey, is something up? You seem to be acting strange around me." But I don't think that would actually do anything.
I am just trying to understand if I've done something horrible (is turning down invitations but just being generally friendly means it's understandable to be ignored to this extent? Was a rumor or misunderstanding started? I don't know. Maybe they think I'm being snooty by saying no so often.) and would like to self reflect and do better if so. Sadly, the fear of being disliked carries a lot of weight for me. I also would like to know if I did what any average human being who doesn't really want to be close friends with their neighbors did.
So, if I had to sum it up, what's the best way to "be ok" with being disliked? And should I speak up and ask what's up to at least clear the air on my side (I'm leaning towards no...)? How can I best self reflect on this to make sure I'm not being a bad person without beating myself up?
(Yes, I am in therapy! We are talking about this at my next appointment :D )
Well, they have definitely succeeded in creating a dorm. Which is to say they are acting like a bunch of 17 year olds and creating a tremendous amount of drama through a lack of emotional maturity.
Technically, in their eyes you have committed some offense (which is as likely to be about some imaginary event as it is to be about something you’ve actually done) but in the eyes of any reasonable adult you haven’t done anything wrong.
How to deal with it is harder. If it really was a bunch of 17 year olds having social drama would you be able to keep your emotions clear?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:22 PM on August 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
Technically, in their eyes you have committed some offense (which is as likely to be about some imaginary event as it is to be about something you’ve actually done) but in the eyes of any reasonable adult you haven’t done anything wrong.
How to deal with it is harder. If it really was a bunch of 17 year olds having social drama would you be able to keep your emotions clear?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:22 PM on August 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
I resonate with what you wrote a lot, and this would make me feel icky too!! Bah!
Here's what I tend to do. Do you have any friends who are good at saying no and calling bullshit and starting an argument if they need to? I have a couple dear friends like this, and honesty talking with them and hearing their reaction is SO helpful (the "your neighbors are trash" above, my friend would respond EXACTLY in that way. Because, they are being way garbage right now!!!)
I have found strength calling up a friend and hearing their reaction and then recognizing, while I am not exactly the same as my friend, I can channel, say, 40% of that energy. I can agree with them (bc, again, fuck this dynamic) and draw a little strength. Plus it makes it easier to have someone to check in with and laugh about the situation with ( laugh AND get mad!!!) This has helped me over time. Plus just to say it again, they're being jerks and disease vectors and just all kinds of highschool and as you know intuitively, you are plenty capable of building authentic and meaningful community, so, you know, they can all fuck off. Good luck!!!
posted by elephantsvanish at 9:33 PM on August 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Here's what I tend to do. Do you have any friends who are good at saying no and calling bullshit and starting an argument if they need to? I have a couple dear friends like this, and honesty talking with them and hearing their reaction is SO helpful (the "your neighbors are trash" above, my friend would respond EXACTLY in that way. Because, they are being way garbage right now!!!)
I have found strength calling up a friend and hearing their reaction and then recognizing, while I am not exactly the same as my friend, I can channel, say, 40% of that energy. I can agree with them (bc, again, fuck this dynamic) and draw a little strength. Plus it makes it easier to have someone to check in with and laugh about the situation with ( laugh AND get mad!!!) This has helped me over time. Plus just to say it again, they're being jerks and disease vectors and just all kinds of highschool and as you know intuitively, you are plenty capable of building authentic and meaningful community, so, you know, they can all fuck off. Good luck!!!
posted by elephantsvanish at 9:33 PM on August 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Ignore them. Everyone mutually ignores each other. That is the polite way to handle this sort of thing. (Also, if they're throwing parties, everyone is going to get it, for godsake!)
A few years ago, I was put into a work group where everyone was friendly at first, and then a few months in they all decided they hated me. Now, it turns out that they're jerky people and even before they started ignoring or bullying me, they were saying things that made me uncomfortable, that were meaner than I thought they should be, etc. Should I feel bad about jerks not liking me? On some level, no.
But on the one hand, it sucks and can be dangerous when an entire group hates you. It's very threatening, and indeed it was literally threatening my employment and life. Of course that triggers shit in you to not be liked. But in this case, they are just being passive! They're giving you the cut direct and that's it. They're not throwing eggs at your door and calling the police on you or acting out their hate towards you. They probably DO think you're snooty for turning them down, to be honest. But they are not the crowd for you! You weren't happy being around them. This is the best outcome for everyone.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:32 PM on August 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
A few years ago, I was put into a work group where everyone was friendly at first, and then a few months in they all decided they hated me. Now, it turns out that they're jerky people and even before they started ignoring or bullying me, they were saying things that made me uncomfortable, that were meaner than I thought they should be, etc. Should I feel bad about jerks not liking me? On some level, no.
But on the one hand, it sucks and can be dangerous when an entire group hates you. It's very threatening, and indeed it was literally threatening my employment and life. Of course that triggers shit in you to not be liked. But in this case, they are just being passive! They're giving you the cut direct and that's it. They're not throwing eggs at your door and calling the police on you or acting out their hate towards you. They probably DO think you're snooty for turning them down, to be honest. But they are not the crowd for you! You weren't happy being around them. This is the best outcome for everyone.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:32 PM on August 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
I am not a people pleaser. I am a this is who I am take or leave it kind of guy. I do not suffer the fool gladly. I do not think these people are worth pleasing or worrying about. I certainly have my share of people who don't like me. Probably some on this board.
I had a teacher who uses to repeat To thyne own self be true. That is what I think when someone like these folks don't like me. As long as I am being true to myself, I do not worry what they think. You are certainly being true to yourself. You should be proud of yourself for being true to yourself and not getting sucked into their childish petty world.
To please these people would require you to deviate from your own moral code. Don't. Keep doing you. Be pleased that you are a good person.
Easy for me to say, but be true to yourself.
posted by AugustWest at 10:40 PM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
I had a teacher who uses to repeat To thyne own self be true. That is what I think when someone like these folks don't like me. As long as I am being true to myself, I do not worry what they think. You are certainly being true to yourself. You should be proud of yourself for being true to yourself and not getting sucked into their childish petty world.
To please these people would require you to deviate from your own moral code. Don't. Keep doing you. Be pleased that you are a good person.
Easy for me to say, but be true to yourself.
posted by AugustWest at 10:40 PM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
They are being really high school.
But, I know this sounds strange, but it might help -
Maybe it's not about being likeable?
Maybe it's about, do you like THEM?
Because... I don't think you do?
They're exhausting, they question your identity, it seems like they make little snipes, you are uncomfortable around them.
That really doesn't sound like you actually *like* them.
I'm not saying you *hate* them, but you definitely don't actually 'like' them, right?
And especially not the way they are behaving at the moment - woah!
It's bullshit, right?
You don't like how they are behaving to you, and maybe you... just don't like them.
And that's ok.
But you've convinced yourself that they still need to like *you*.
Hmmm...
So you've been trying to be pleasant to these people you don't like being around, and act like you like *them*, but...
To be fair, it looks like they have, accurately, spotted that you don't like them, and are now responding in a (very unlikeable) juvenile way. And probably some weird issues about them feeling like you not liking them is a value judgement, or that your partner can't be friends with them without you.
I hope some people provide tactics to deal with people who can't even pretend to be mature or reasonable, but, maybe this will help you at least let go of part of the desire to please them?
You were willing to be reasonable and mature about not liking them, and just hang out at 'neutral', and they aren't, which is *another* reason you don't like them, but fundamentally, it doesn't matter as much if they don't like you, because you don't like them, and if getting them to like you again meant acting like you want to hang out with them, then, you don't like them and you don't want to hang out with them, and so you don't actually want them to like you that much either!
You *don't* want to be their friends! You just want to be polite neighbours.
So if you wouldn't say hi to your other neighbours, don't say hi to them.
If you would nod at your other neighbours, do nod to them.
If they keep giving you the cold shoulder, rather than acting like pleasant not-friend neighbours, then it's a bit of a joke, right? I think start with a basis of being kind and mature, but you don't need to be *as* worried about them liking you or not, because people who are worried about that will pretend not to see rude behaviour because they don't want to make waves, but you don't actually need them to really like you, just treat you with some respect.
If they are visibly rude, then feel free to be visibly puzzled by their behaviour, and then visibly shrug, like it doesn't matter to you, because it kind of doesn't. If you'd use their names, just switch to saying hi neighbours, if you can manage that in a genuinely pleasant way. If they are standing there not speaking, I'd find that kind of hilarious, and say to my partner, "Soooo, how are the neighbours doing?" while they're standing there, because they're being kind of weird neighbours about it, but really make it clear you just want to be neighbours, not friends.
You can still be the nicest neighbour ever, but focus your people pleasing on being neighbourly, rather than being friends, because you do not want to be friends!
posted by Elysum at 10:43 PM on August 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
But, I know this sounds strange, but it might help -
Maybe it's not about being likeable?
Maybe it's about, do you like THEM?
Because... I don't think you do?
They're exhausting, they question your identity, it seems like they make little snipes, you are uncomfortable around them.
That really doesn't sound like you actually *like* them.
I'm not saying you *hate* them, but you definitely don't actually 'like' them, right?
And especially not the way they are behaving at the moment - woah!
It's bullshit, right?
You don't like how they are behaving to you, and maybe you... just don't like them.
And that's ok.
But you've convinced yourself that they still need to like *you*.
Hmmm...
So you've been trying to be pleasant to these people you don't like being around, and act like you like *them*, but...
To be fair, it looks like they have, accurately, spotted that you don't like them, and are now responding in a (very unlikeable) juvenile way. And probably some weird issues about them feeling like you not liking them is a value judgement, or that your partner can't be friends with them without you.
I hope some people provide tactics to deal with people who can't even pretend to be mature or reasonable, but, maybe this will help you at least let go of part of the desire to please them?
You were willing to be reasonable and mature about not liking them, and just hang out at 'neutral', and they aren't, which is *another* reason you don't like them, but fundamentally, it doesn't matter as much if they don't like you, because you don't like them, and if getting them to like you again meant acting like you want to hang out with them, then, you don't like them and you don't want to hang out with them, and so you don't actually want them to like you that much either!
You *don't* want to be their friends! You just want to be polite neighbours.
So if you wouldn't say hi to your other neighbours, don't say hi to them.
If you would nod at your other neighbours, do nod to them.
If they keep giving you the cold shoulder, rather than acting like pleasant not-friend neighbours, then it's a bit of a joke, right? I think start with a basis of being kind and mature, but you don't need to be *as* worried about them liking you or not, because people who are worried about that will pretend not to see rude behaviour because they don't want to make waves, but you don't actually need them to really like you, just treat you with some respect.
If they are visibly rude, then feel free to be visibly puzzled by their behaviour, and then visibly shrug, like it doesn't matter to you, because it kind of doesn't. If you'd use their names, just switch to saying hi neighbours, if you can manage that in a genuinely pleasant way. If they are standing there not speaking, I'd find that kind of hilarious, and say to my partner, "Soooo, how are the neighbours doing?" while they're standing there, because they're being kind of weird neighbours about it, but really make it clear you just want to be neighbours, not friends.
You can still be the nicest neighbour ever, but focus your people pleasing on being neighbourly, rather than being friends, because you do not want to be friends!
posted by Elysum at 10:43 PM on August 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
I would love to see a neighbor in the mail room, they give me the cold shoulder, and I just plainly but nicely say "Hey, is something up? You seem to be acting strange around me." But I don't think that would actually do anything.
I think it would, actually. In your place I'd think for a bit about what kind of interactions I actually want to have in these encounters, and then make them happen through the power of sheer insistence if need be. So if I wanted neighbors to greet me with basic friendliness, then I'd smile at them each time (I find aggressively beaming at people the most effective, they're often so confused they just get used to smiling back). If they still ignored me after a few times, I'd say, "Hey, what's going on? It feels like you're giving me the cold shoulder." Here you're calling out their actual behavior without dancing around it (this usually works better when said in a friendly way, with a smile). They'll either apologize and pretend it was nothing, or explain/justify it (it seemed like you didn't want to be our friend since you kept declining our invitations! - to which you should have a short answer ready), or deny it and keep ignoring you. In the latter case you can safely to the conclusion that they're not great folks. In the other cases they'll probably restart interactions with you, on your own terms this time.
The problem with people-pleasing is when twist yourself into uncomfortable shapes to get people's approval. This is a chance to practice getting the kind of reactions you want in the way that you determine and are comfortable with.
FWIW, there's a middle ground between people-pleasing and standing up for yourself, namely standing up for yourself but making it clear that you hold no ill will. So saying things like "hey, sorry I keep saying no to invitations - I really enjoy the parties but I keep being exhausted the next day, so I've had to start cutting back. Sounds like it was a really fun one, though!" or whatever. Maybe you've already been doing this, but if not it can be useful. It might be that you're so used to considering your own need to be liked that you've forgotten how insecure other people can be about whether you like them.
posted by trig at 11:33 PM on August 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
I think it would, actually. In your place I'd think for a bit about what kind of interactions I actually want to have in these encounters, and then make them happen through the power of sheer insistence if need be. So if I wanted neighbors to greet me with basic friendliness, then I'd smile at them each time (I find aggressively beaming at people the most effective, they're often so confused they just get used to smiling back). If they still ignored me after a few times, I'd say, "Hey, what's going on? It feels like you're giving me the cold shoulder." Here you're calling out their actual behavior without dancing around it (this usually works better when said in a friendly way, with a smile). They'll either apologize and pretend it was nothing, or explain/justify it (it seemed like you didn't want to be our friend since you kept declining our invitations! - to which you should have a short answer ready), or deny it and keep ignoring you. In the latter case you can safely to the conclusion that they're not great folks. In the other cases they'll probably restart interactions with you, on your own terms this time.
The problem with people-pleasing is when twist yourself into uncomfortable shapes to get people's approval. This is a chance to practice getting the kind of reactions you want in the way that you determine and are comfortable with.
FWIW, there's a middle ground between people-pleasing and standing up for yourself, namely standing up for yourself but making it clear that you hold no ill will. So saying things like "hey, sorry I keep saying no to invitations - I really enjoy the parties but I keep being exhausted the next day, so I've had to start cutting back. Sounds like it was a really fun one, though!" or whatever. Maybe you've already been doing this, but if not it can be useful. It might be that you're so used to considering your own need to be liked that you've forgotten how insecure other people can be about whether you like them.
posted by trig at 11:33 PM on August 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
Maybe it's about, do you like THEM?
Yessss, times a million. I know it's hard, but keep reminding yourself that it is straight up impossible to please/be liked by everyone. You have to pick and choose who to spend your efforts on, and these immature assholes are clearly not it. Biphobia? Spreading disease? Acting cliquey? Who needs that shit? Not you.
I have many friends with mutual love and I get along with many people.
Keep these friends in your mind. When you get that feel, picture someone who loves you, how they look when they smile, how it felt the last time they hugged you. This has given me so much strength. I know amazing humans, and they love and respect me because I am an interesting, complex person, and a goddamn great friend.
Everything you describe doing is perfect, and I'm proud of you for holding strong boundaries. You just live next to these people, you have no obligation to engage with them. Walk past them, give them the friendly stranger nod at most, and live your life.
posted by bethnull at 11:41 PM on August 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
Yessss, times a million. I know it's hard, but keep reminding yourself that it is straight up impossible to please/be liked by everyone. You have to pick and choose who to spend your efforts on, and these immature assholes are clearly not it. Biphobia? Spreading disease? Acting cliquey? Who needs that shit? Not you.
I have many friends with mutual love and I get along with many people.
Keep these friends in your mind. When you get that feel, picture someone who loves you, how they look when they smile, how it felt the last time they hugged you. This has given me so much strength. I know amazing humans, and they love and respect me because I am an interesting, complex person, and a goddamn great friend.
Everything you describe doing is perfect, and I'm proud of you for holding strong boundaries. You just live next to these people, you have no obligation to engage with them. Walk past them, give them the friendly stranger nod at most, and live your life.
posted by bethnull at 11:41 PM on August 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
I’m a people pleaser in a similar situation. I deal with it by consciously reminding myself how much love I have in my life. It still stings and is hard, but knowing that other people love me has really helped me see that the other person’s behavior is about THEM and I am doing nothing wrong.
Humor helps, too! I have taught myself to laugh at the absurd behavior. That may seem hard, but if you can slowly train your brain to remember that this isn’t about you, their reaction will seem so absurd it’s laughable. I mean what grown ass man in their 30s tries to turn his apartment building into a college dorm?? Some men never grow up.
Good luck!
posted by Amy93 at 4:04 AM on August 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
Humor helps, too! I have taught myself to laugh at the absurd behavior. That may seem hard, but if you can slowly train your brain to remember that this isn’t about you, their reaction will seem so absurd it’s laughable. I mean what grown ass man in their 30s tries to turn his apartment building into a college dorm?? Some men never grow up.
Good luck!
posted by Amy93 at 4:04 AM on August 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
People who make quick intense friendships almost always are needy. Not everyone who makes quick intense friendships are like this, but in my experience the people who rush into intimacy are the ones who have boundary issues and crave intensity for their own identity. The key is intensity. If that nice woman who moves into the building and says hello to everyone and chats with everyone who has a dog so she can say hello to the dog waits until next summer to invite everyone to a barbecue, she's probably just extremely outgoing. But if she starts trying to organize things in the building less that six months in, she's someone who doesn't feel her way in, and is rushing to gather people around her. As quickly as she becomes friends with people, if they don't fill her ego needs she's going to feel hurt and offended. Drinking together is often another indication of this type of behaviour, as getting drunk together produces that kind of intimacy.
So your new building mate rushed to gather everyone around him, rushed to dictate the type of relationships - parties and drinking - and feels hurt if someone doesn't adapt and participate, as well as making it clear that the participants (you) have to change because they are not acceptable the way they are. He sounds like he comes from that category of person to me.
My guess is that over the next year or so there is going to be a lot of drama, at least one incident where the cops get called, and as rapidly as they moved to the intimacy with everyone they are going to move to being the building nuisance. Then they are going to move out looking for some place where people are nice, not backstabbers who pretend to be friendly but refuse to match them drink for drink. Their lack of boundaries means that people like you who were initially friendly are going to put up some boundaries so your party boy is going to be hurt by everybody, and see it as defections. They probably dislike several of the people in your building already, starting with the other people they talk to in the hall but who have never attended one of their parties. And when the cops get called to quiet an inappropriately rowdy party they are going to get a major hate on for whoever they think did the calling.
Back away quietly and pleasantly and don't engage. This person will love if you become their bff and sidekick, until the day they become a mean drunk. They need people to accept them totally and cater to them and companion them while not accepting other people, not making accommodations for them and not allowing time off from being on duty soothing their ego and their loneliness.
Indications are that this person is also a people pleaser and a bully at the same time.There is a good chance that person doesn't even like themself. That's why they want the exciting stimulation of constant intense social situations. They likely slip into the dark teatime of the soul if left alone to look at themself in solitude and quiet. They are never going to like you if they are struggling so hard to like themself.
If you provide them with some warm reassurance. "Man, I wish I could go to those parties but my doctor has told me I mustn't drink and they always trigger my migraines. It's so great the building is lively now," they will back off on the hostility. They are projecting their own insecurity, but if they don't see evidence that you hate them, they will turn their insecurity and hostility on someone else who brings the wrong cheese dip or something. The closer you are to them the more likely they are to find a reason to hate you.
You're good. You're safer with them writing you off. You'd be at risk of becoming the centre of big drama if you went to the parties, but if you just smile and wave you're in the safest position possible. Consider if your discomfort and guilt is basically caused by fear - this person not liking you may be making you feel unsafe and that may be where the guilt and self-questioning is coming from. Your reaction is the type that people who have lived in dangerous situations have, a type of hyper-vigilance. You backed away for good and sound self protective reasons and are now safer because of the distance. It's not mean to refuse to party with someone, it's mean to demand people party with you and mean to allow a situation to occur where they feel uncomfortable at your parties.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:17 AM on August 3, 2020 [19 favorites]
So your new building mate rushed to gather everyone around him, rushed to dictate the type of relationships - parties and drinking - and feels hurt if someone doesn't adapt and participate, as well as making it clear that the participants (you) have to change because they are not acceptable the way they are. He sounds like he comes from that category of person to me.
My guess is that over the next year or so there is going to be a lot of drama, at least one incident where the cops get called, and as rapidly as they moved to the intimacy with everyone they are going to move to being the building nuisance. Then they are going to move out looking for some place where people are nice, not backstabbers who pretend to be friendly but refuse to match them drink for drink. Their lack of boundaries means that people like you who were initially friendly are going to put up some boundaries so your party boy is going to be hurt by everybody, and see it as defections. They probably dislike several of the people in your building already, starting with the other people they talk to in the hall but who have never attended one of their parties. And when the cops get called to quiet an inappropriately rowdy party they are going to get a major hate on for whoever they think did the calling.
Back away quietly and pleasantly and don't engage. This person will love if you become their bff and sidekick, until the day they become a mean drunk. They need people to accept them totally and cater to them and companion them while not accepting other people, not making accommodations for them and not allowing time off from being on duty soothing their ego and their loneliness.
Indications are that this person is also a people pleaser and a bully at the same time.There is a good chance that person doesn't even like themself. That's why they want the exciting stimulation of constant intense social situations. They likely slip into the dark teatime of the soul if left alone to look at themself in solitude and quiet. They are never going to like you if they are struggling so hard to like themself.
If you provide them with some warm reassurance. "Man, I wish I could go to those parties but my doctor has told me I mustn't drink and they always trigger my migraines. It's so great the building is lively now," they will back off on the hostility. They are projecting their own insecurity, but if they don't see evidence that you hate them, they will turn their insecurity and hostility on someone else who brings the wrong cheese dip or something. The closer you are to them the more likely they are to find a reason to hate you.
You're good. You're safer with them writing you off. You'd be at risk of becoming the centre of big drama if you went to the parties, but if you just smile and wave you're in the safest position possible. Consider if your discomfort and guilt is basically caused by fear - this person not liking you may be making you feel unsafe and that may be where the guilt and self-questioning is coming from. Your reaction is the type that people who have lived in dangerous situations have, a type of hyper-vigilance. You backed away for good and sound self protective reasons and are now safer because of the distance. It's not mean to refuse to party with someone, it's mean to demand people party with you and mean to allow a situation to occur where they feel uncomfortable at your parties.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:17 AM on August 3, 2020 [19 favorites]
Glad you're talking with your therapist about this; I'm sure there are ways to push your mind past the false narrative it's created. I have rude neighbors (not this rude), and inventing increasingly weird and hilarious stories to explain their behavior is a fun quarantine pastime. I mean, the aging football quarterback who peaked in high school is a trope for a reason.
But if I'm reading this right, your partner is also going along with these shit-dumpers? It doesn't sound like he's actively bullying you (yikes) but standing silent while someone mocks one's partner is ... not a great look. If you don't feel comfortable talking with them, maybe start by talking to him about it? If he stands up for you and they freeze him out too, y'all have your answer and can start making up the weird and hilarious stories together!
posted by basalganglia at 4:23 AM on August 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
But if I'm reading this right, your partner is also going along with these shit-dumpers? It doesn't sound like he's actively bullying you (yikes) but standing silent while someone mocks one's partner is ... not a great look. If you don't feel comfortable talking with them, maybe start by talking to him about it? If he stands up for you and they freeze him out too, y'all have your answer and can start making up the weird and hilarious stories together!
posted by basalganglia at 4:23 AM on August 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
This sucks since these people are so obviously the lame ones but you're the one who has to live with it! Check out freethefeet's answer to a related question I once asked; she is wise. I agree with basalganglia about talking to your partner. It would be good to have someone totally on your side. Also, I think you are right that confronting these people to clear the air will not be helpful.
posted by ferret branca at 6:21 AM on August 3, 2020
posted by ferret branca at 6:21 AM on August 3, 2020
Also, it's hard since, like...I think they are being jerks since they feel like you rejected them. But you did, since they are doing some terrible stuff (questioning your queerness? having big COVID parties? totally not okay!). I think you will just have to sit with the fact that your moral compass has told you that you don't want to be around these people and that makes for some unpleasant feelings, but it's better than the alternative of hanging out with them like what they're doing is okay.
posted by ferret branca at 6:24 AM on August 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by ferret branca at 6:24 AM on August 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
I have to wonder if this ringleader fellow actually is aware that parties in the age of COVID are a bad idea, sees your non-participation as a judgement on his choice to instigate a dangerous gathering, feels guilty about endangering people/is angry that anyone would judge him on exercising his “freedom,” and then bad-mouthed you to the rest of the group.
Also, ringleader-types tend to be super-outgoing Joiners who fundamentally do not understand that gatherings can be draining for some people and who then take your (reasonable) limits on social interaction as a personal affront.
In other words, I doubt that this is about people genuinely not liking you.
posted by corey flood at 7:39 AM on August 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Also, ringleader-types tend to be super-outgoing Joiners who fundamentally do not understand that gatherings can be draining for some people and who then take your (reasonable) limits on social interaction as a personal affront.
In other words, I doubt that this is about people genuinely not liking you.
posted by corey flood at 7:39 AM on August 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry they are making your home space so uncomfortable. FWIW, I would absolutely hate a "dorm" type living situation, and I really value my home as a sanctuary from social interaction. One time I pretended to not be home after a neighbor I had *just talked to in the hallway* knocked on my door.
Can you reframe this a problem they have independent of you? As a group, they sound deeply immature and cliquey. I would discount bigotry or racism here either tbh. Ignoring you is immature AND a microaggression. Your instinct that it's not going to be productive to speak up and clear the air is correct. Just based on what you wrote here, I also think you did enough reflecting and can confidently say to yourself "I'm not being a bad person."
posted by pumpkinlatte at 7:47 AM on August 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Can you reframe this a problem they have independent of you? As a group, they sound deeply immature and cliquey. I would discount bigotry or racism here either tbh. Ignoring you is immature AND a microaggression. Your instinct that it's not going to be productive to speak up and clear the air is correct. Just based on what you wrote here, I also think you did enough reflecting and can confidently say to yourself "I'm not being a bad person."
posted by pumpkinlatte at 7:47 AM on August 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Seems like they don't particularly like you, because you don't particularly like them (I sure wouldn't either, from the sound of it), so what. There are a lot of people I don't exactly gell with and I still manage to interact with politely, because we're not in high school anymore. I think neighbours should be able to have a reasonable expectation of the friendly if superficial relationship you envision - smiling and nodding in the hallway, helping each other out with a pound of sugar or lending a tool, without needing to be drinking-buddies. It sucks that your neighbour can't hit that happy medium and forces you into an all-or-nothing proposition. But that's what it is, and in this case, nothing is defintely the better choice for you.
I would argue that going to these parties once or twice should count as sufficient effort to play nice on your part, maybe too much effort even. Your neighbour's dorm-lifestyle-vision is a completely unreasonably expectation in this setting (if that's what he wants he should join a commune or a fraternity or whatever; the key thing for these ventures is that people have to sign up for them and you didn't). Unreasonable expectations have to be managed, and it's often better to do that sooner than latter. The moment someone would make that kind of suggestion to me, I would try to come up with face-saving excuses. ("I have a lot of stress at work right now and need my sleep." / "I have horrible migraines that get worse if I can't make my regular bed time".) If I never go the parties they can write me off as a dull person and start to ignore me politely. If I go to the parties once or twice but then stop, they might start to consider that it's their parties which are dull and they might end up ignorig me rudely.
I suspect that this probably wasn't much of an option for you, because you're a better person than me and wanted to give these guys a chance and also, your partner apparentely enjoyed the parties. Also, I'm a genuinely dull person who just doesn't go out a lot, but if you're not, the regular bedtime excuse may sound fishy. At any rate, now that you have made your best effort you can safely say that it isn't for you and your partner should understand that and support you here. It's not too late for you to develop that migraine.
Another option is to just let them feel judged by you and weather their judgment in turn, because parties during the pandemic are bad and they should feel bad. If enough people start to side-eye them over it, they might think twice before planning the next one, which would be a net good right now. That's going to be unpleasant for a while but I'm with the commenter above who speculated that they will probably be distracted by inter-clique-drama soon enough and find a new target for their ire.
posted by sohalt at 8:39 AM on August 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
I would argue that going to these parties once or twice should count as sufficient effort to play nice on your part, maybe too much effort even. Your neighbour's dorm-lifestyle-vision is a completely unreasonably expectation in this setting (if that's what he wants he should join a commune or a fraternity or whatever; the key thing for these ventures is that people have to sign up for them and you didn't). Unreasonable expectations have to be managed, and it's often better to do that sooner than latter. The moment someone would make that kind of suggestion to me, I would try to come up with face-saving excuses. ("I have a lot of stress at work right now and need my sleep." / "I have horrible migraines that get worse if I can't make my regular bed time".) If I never go the parties they can write me off as a dull person and start to ignore me politely. If I go to the parties once or twice but then stop, they might start to consider that it's their parties which are dull and they might end up ignorig me rudely.
I suspect that this probably wasn't much of an option for you, because you're a better person than me and wanted to give these guys a chance and also, your partner apparentely enjoyed the parties. Also, I'm a genuinely dull person who just doesn't go out a lot, but if you're not, the regular bedtime excuse may sound fishy. At any rate, now that you have made your best effort you can safely say that it isn't for you and your partner should understand that and support you here. It's not too late for you to develop that migraine.
Another option is to just let them feel judged by you and weather their judgment in turn, because parties during the pandemic are bad and they should feel bad. If enough people start to side-eye them over it, they might think twice before planning the next one, which would be a net good right now. That's going to be unpleasant for a while but I'm with the commenter above who speculated that they will probably be distracted by inter-clique-drama soon enough and find a new target for their ire.
posted by sohalt at 8:39 AM on August 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
I was friendly but drained. I knew the group liked me, because I kept getting invited to things, but I kept turning them down over time because I just felt less and less like myself when I hung out with them.
It's certainly true that when a person likes you, they may demonstrate this by inviting you to things where they can enjoy your company. But the reverse doesn't hold up -- just because someone invites you to things, it doesn't mean that they that they are communicating that they personally like you. First of all, invites to group things are often rightfully ruled by some larger principle of inclusion (e.g., you invite the whole office to the office holiday party and let people manage for themselves who they want to chitchat with.)
Secondly, in this case, it seems obvious that were inviting you primarily because THEY wanted validation that YOU "like" THEM. And now they're offended beyond belief that you didn't develop loyalty to a very superficial group dynamic where you felt dismissed. Meh. This was never really about you personally.
I am just trying to understand if I've done something horrible (is turning down invitations but just being generally friendly means it's understandable to be ignored to this extent? Was a rumor or misunderstanding started? I don't know. Maybe they think I'm being snooty by saying no so often.) and would like to self reflect and do better if so.
Yes, they probably think that you're snooty for not continuing to go to their parties. But you didn't do anything wrong by drifting away from new acquaintances who make you feel drained (or really for any other personal reason that is none of their business.) In an ideal world, perhaps some of them would reflect on why they feel so strongly that you owe them something. Would they be so offended if a 70 year old lady declined their parties, or would they just give her the benefit of the doubt and continue being pleasant in the mailroom? I suspect they'd do the latter (for a whole host of ageist reasons that I'm not condoning) but my point is that if there was any doubt that their motivations around this group are petty, this "cold shoulder" treatment kinda clinches it.
posted by desuetude at 1:18 PM on August 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's certainly true that when a person likes you, they may demonstrate this by inviting you to things where they can enjoy your company. But the reverse doesn't hold up -- just because someone invites you to things, it doesn't mean that they that they are communicating that they personally like you. First of all, invites to group things are often rightfully ruled by some larger principle of inclusion (e.g., you invite the whole office to the office holiday party and let people manage for themselves who they want to chitchat with.)
Secondly, in this case, it seems obvious that were inviting you primarily because THEY wanted validation that YOU "like" THEM. And now they're offended beyond belief that you didn't develop loyalty to a very superficial group dynamic where you felt dismissed. Meh. This was never really about you personally.
I am just trying to understand if I've done something horrible (is turning down invitations but just being generally friendly means it's understandable to be ignored to this extent? Was a rumor or misunderstanding started? I don't know. Maybe they think I'm being snooty by saying no so often.) and would like to self reflect and do better if so.
Yes, they probably think that you're snooty for not continuing to go to their parties. But you didn't do anything wrong by drifting away from new acquaintances who make you feel drained (or really for any other personal reason that is none of their business.) In an ideal world, perhaps some of them would reflect on why they feel so strongly that you owe them something. Would they be so offended if a 70 year old lady declined their parties, or would they just give her the benefit of the doubt and continue being pleasant in the mailroom? I suspect they'd do the latter (for a whole host of ageist reasons that I'm not condoning) but my point is that if there was any doubt that their motivations around this group are petty, this "cold shoulder" treatment kinda clinches it.
posted by desuetude at 1:18 PM on August 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
I've been in a VERY similar situation, to the point where I almost thought you were writing about my building. Same in-group dynamic, same loud partying, same college dorm atmosphere, same subtle jabs to undermine people's identities while trying to pretend we're all buddies, same COVID behavior. And even though I am not particularly a people-pleaser, being in this situation really got under my skin. It's hard for it not to when you have to see and hear these people all the time!
In my case, I tried to pull a slow fade, like you, and it actually did work for a while, I stayed on good terms with people while minimizing my interactions. Eventually I started getting the cold shoulder too. I felt guilty, as you do - in my case it was because I've always considered myself very community-oriented, and I felt like such a jerk being the stick-in-the-mud who didn't want to be in community with my neighbors!
But the thing is, I didn't do anything wrong, and neither did you. What I eventually figured out is that they like to think of themselves as being the cool kids, and when someone doesn't want to hang out with them, it challenges that idea. Of course, we're adults now, and the whole idea of "cool kids" doesn't work outside of pretty insular environments. We're just people who don't really mesh, and they could have been gracious about it but ... they weren't. It sounds like something similar is going on in your situation.
Two things have helped the most. 1. I moved units in the complex so that I don't have to come into contact with the clique as much (the place they congregate used to be literally 10 feet from my front door - it's not why I moved but it helped). I also muted the group chat - you might not be able to easily do the former, but if you haven't done the latter, it's a good idea. 2. As someone above suggested, I told this story to a few friends who are very opinionated and also know that I'm not a misanthrope or a jerk. It was honestly gratifying to have them be like "what is that high school shit??" and validate that I did nothing wrong.
Also, when I was 12 years old and being bullied by some mean girls, a school counselor told me "if someone is being mean to you, it usually says more about them than it does you." I really took that to heart and it helps to repeat that to myself even decades later when I'm in situations like this. They're not acting like immature jerks because of anything you did. They're acting like immature jerks because they're immature and it makes them act like jerks.
posted by lunasol at 3:59 PM on August 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
In my case, I tried to pull a slow fade, like you, and it actually did work for a while, I stayed on good terms with people while minimizing my interactions. Eventually I started getting the cold shoulder too. I felt guilty, as you do - in my case it was because I've always considered myself very community-oriented, and I felt like such a jerk being the stick-in-the-mud who didn't want to be in community with my neighbors!
But the thing is, I didn't do anything wrong, and neither did you. What I eventually figured out is that they like to think of themselves as being the cool kids, and when someone doesn't want to hang out with them, it challenges that idea. Of course, we're adults now, and the whole idea of "cool kids" doesn't work outside of pretty insular environments. We're just people who don't really mesh, and they could have been gracious about it but ... they weren't. It sounds like something similar is going on in your situation.
Two things have helped the most. 1. I moved units in the complex so that I don't have to come into contact with the clique as much (the place they congregate used to be literally 10 feet from my front door - it's not why I moved but it helped). I also muted the group chat - you might not be able to easily do the former, but if you haven't done the latter, it's a good idea. 2. As someone above suggested, I told this story to a few friends who are very opinionated and also know that I'm not a misanthrope or a jerk. It was honestly gratifying to have them be like "what is that high school shit??" and validate that I did nothing wrong.
Also, when I was 12 years old and being bullied by some mean girls, a school counselor told me "if someone is being mean to you, it usually says more about them than it does you." I really took that to heart and it helps to repeat that to myself even decades later when I'm in situations like this. They're not acting like immature jerks because of anything you did. They're acting like immature jerks because they're immature and it makes them act like jerks.
posted by lunasol at 3:59 PM on August 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Though I don’t think anyone is following this, just in case, I want to say thank you all for the answers and advice given. I appreciate it. I did talk to my therapist and she also believes it’s just environment and not “me” or something I have or have not done. The good news is that we are moving and I feel a weight lifted! I have kept friendly contact (general hellos) and left it at that. So if they’re still mean, oh well! I have nothing else I can do! And that feels nice to have that weight lifted.
posted by buttonedup at 1:41 PM on August 31, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by buttonedup at 1:41 PM on August 31, 2020 [4 favorites]
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