I didn't vote for this horror & I'm sorry, but I'm not here as a proxy
October 29, 2019 3:11 PM Subscribe
How can I preclude hostility from online ELL adults (group classes)? I got through the first wave or two of being expected to answer for the US's actions that occurred during/after the 2016 election. But this last weekend was the most recent punch in the gut- a Yemeni student, rather than introducing himself with his job, interests, etc he gave details on what Yemen is currently experiencing, which I'm aware of. I tried to say some supportive things, and told him I need to focus for everyone here but I was nearly in tears because of course he was right. Can you suggest anything I could say to prevent this oblique 'attack?' I don't know if I can stomach any more of the anecdotes like the latter, the dogpiling, the snide shitty attitudes I can get just for being American at them. But what can I say? How can I prevent this, or indicate we're on the same side without becoming a blubbering puddle? Any thoughts would be appreciated. -A little more inside-
I was planning to try to stop drinking this week, so scratch that.
My employer seemed to suppress this behavior a lot (bless 'em) but there seems to be a resurgence, particularly by people in areas directly affected by us. I don't blame them one bit for their feelings, of course- I didn't blame the Europeans for their disgust either- but I'd rather not quit because as said it's overall pretty fun & gratifying, and this employer provides a predictable schedule (apparently rare in this biz.) Moreover the money is adequate & I don't have a BA yet, and I CANNOT CODE, so it could be back to, IDK, $8 an hour for doggy daycare? This hourly is almost all that prevents this return to my past, really. Thanks for your consideration, Smart People-
I was planning to try to stop drinking this week, so scratch that.
My employer seemed to suppress this behavior a lot (bless 'em) but there seems to be a resurgence, particularly by people in areas directly affected by us. I don't blame them one bit for their feelings, of course- I didn't blame the Europeans for their disgust either- but I'd rather not quit because as said it's overall pretty fun & gratifying, and this employer provides a predictable schedule (apparently rare in this biz.) Moreover the money is adequate & I don't have a BA yet, and I CANNOT CODE, so it could be back to, IDK, $8 an hour for doggy daycare? This hourly is almost all that prevents this return to my past, really. Thanks for your consideration, Smart People-
"Thank you for sharing that with us, Farid."
Then move on to the next student.
posted by phunniemee at 3:34 PM on October 29, 2019 [22 favorites]
Then move on to the next student.
posted by phunniemee at 3:34 PM on October 29, 2019 [22 favorites]
You are there to teach them English, redirect the focus to that and prepare some responses you can pull out when you need to do so. I wouldn't focus on preventing it or trying to be on their side - they're rightfully mad - just try to detach your personal feelings from it, acknowledge what they said, and re-focus on whatever the lesson is.
You are being confronted with your privilege in a really uncomfortable way. I don't envy you. But I don't think it's helpful or credible to convince them that you're on their side, it's hooking you emotionally so you're unable to teach and they probably aren't convinced anyhow.
posted by momus_window at 3:39 PM on October 29, 2019 [30 favorites]
You are being confronted with your privilege in a really uncomfortable way. I don't envy you. But I don't think it's helpful or credible to convince them that you're on their side, it's hooking you emotionally so you're unable to teach and they probably aren't convinced anyhow.
posted by momus_window at 3:39 PM on October 29, 2019 [30 favorites]
How can I prevent this, or indicate we're on the same side without becoming a blubbering puddle?
You probably can't prevent it, and you shouldn't indicate you're on any side. Don't engage in the debate. Just acknowledge and move on. (On preview: What phunniemee said).
And, y'know, if this is actually reducing you to tears and making it hard to concentrate, maybe it is a good time to stop drinking. Booze doesn't help emotional regulation, even if it feels like an upper at the time.
posted by penguin pie at 3:41 PM on October 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
You probably can't prevent it, and you shouldn't indicate you're on any side. Don't engage in the debate. Just acknowledge and move on. (On preview: What phunniemee said).
And, y'know, if this is actually reducing you to tears and making it hard to concentrate, maybe it is a good time to stop drinking. Booze doesn't help emotional regulation, even if it feels like an upper at the time.
posted by penguin pie at 3:41 PM on October 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
Stop looking at it as a personal attack and start treating it as a student making a contribution that may be too long or off-topic or inappropriately personal (given the nature of the class).
Also, it sounds like these are actually traumatized people. You can't be their therapy, but keep in mind that they're probably not coming from the best state of mind. They're almost certainly not trying to be malicious.
posted by praemunire at 3:42 PM on October 29, 2019 [57 favorites]
Also, it sounds like these are actually traumatized people. You can't be their therapy, but keep in mind that they're probably not coming from the best state of mind. They're almost certainly not trying to be malicious.
posted by praemunire at 3:42 PM on October 29, 2019 [57 favorites]
They might need somewhere else to vent. Can you direct them to a class discussion board or something?
Also, when you introduce yourself, you should get out in front of this. Tell them that talking about the horrors of the world is important, but that it also is very costly for other students' and their teacher's energy because it does affect you deeply.
Also, you might say (if you can do so sincerely) that their concerns deserve much more attention and time than you can give them in this situation, so that bringing them up that way doesn't give them the respect they deserve.
If you can find an easy English article that addresses the deep upset that many Americans feel, and that you believe represents you too, you can maybe send them there.
This is a hard situation. I hope you are getting comfort from someone.
posted by amtho at 3:44 PM on October 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Also, when you introduce yourself, you should get out in front of this. Tell them that talking about the horrors of the world is important, but that it also is very costly for other students' and their teacher's energy because it does affect you deeply.
Also, you might say (if you can do so sincerely) that their concerns deserve much more attention and time than you can give them in this situation, so that bringing them up that way doesn't give them the respect they deserve.
If you can find an easy English article that addresses the deep upset that many Americans feel, and that you believe represents you too, you can maybe send them there.
This is a hard situation. I hope you are getting comfort from someone.
posted by amtho at 3:44 PM on October 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
For students that are rude and disruptive, it might help to separate out the politics from the behavior. The problem isn't that they're angry at Americans, the problem is that their behavior is disrespectful to you as a teacher and disruptive to the class. Acknowledge/reprimand their behavior ("That's a rude thing to say" or "X, we're trying to learn about restaurant ordering now so please let the class focus") and move on.
In the case of the Yemeni student specifically, it doesn't sound like sharing details about the situation in Yemen was meant as an attack. He may have been just trying to spread awareness of what's happening to his country because sometimes that's all you can really do, and when you're in that situation it might feel weird and frivolous to go through a conversation pretending like it's not happening, and he did so during a time where it was appropriate to say non-class-related things. Like... I know it must have felt like it was being directed at you, but this is also something that's happening to him in his life and his country.
It seems like being reminded of America's fault in this situation made you feel guilty as an American, but that kind of intense shame doesn't really help anyone and in fact is making you feel resentful and upset. Do you think there's a way you can decouple statements about political realities or comments about Americans in general from your feelings about American-ness? Phunniemee's script for redirecting class conversation is super helpful in class, but I think you need a script like that in your mind. For example: "America is doing bad things, but that doesn't mean I'm a bad person. I'm going to do the best I can by teaching and moving on."
You also don't have to be on the same side to teach students or even be friendly with them. It sounds like when you're reminded of your American-ness you have an urge to prove that you're not "one of the bad Americans" and you're to some extent seeking validation from your students on that aspect, but that's not really something they're in any position to give you. Maybe talk through your guilt with a professional or trusted friend, or start volunteering/doing campaign work so that your mental or vocal script can be "Yeah, America sucks right now, but I'm working to change that"?
posted by storytam at 3:59 PM on October 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
In the case of the Yemeni student specifically, it doesn't sound like sharing details about the situation in Yemen was meant as an attack. He may have been just trying to spread awareness of what's happening to his country because sometimes that's all you can really do, and when you're in that situation it might feel weird and frivolous to go through a conversation pretending like it's not happening, and he did so during a time where it was appropriate to say non-class-related things. Like... I know it must have felt like it was being directed at you, but this is also something that's happening to him in his life and his country.
It seems like being reminded of America's fault in this situation made you feel guilty as an American, but that kind of intense shame doesn't really help anyone and in fact is making you feel resentful and upset. Do you think there's a way you can decouple statements about political realities or comments about Americans in general from your feelings about American-ness? Phunniemee's script for redirecting class conversation is super helpful in class, but I think you need a script like that in your mind. For example: "America is doing bad things, but that doesn't mean I'm a bad person. I'm going to do the best I can by teaching and moving on."
You also don't have to be on the same side to teach students or even be friendly with them. It sounds like when you're reminded of your American-ness you have an urge to prove that you're not "one of the bad Americans" and you're to some extent seeking validation from your students on that aspect, but that's not really something they're in any position to give you. Maybe talk through your guilt with a professional or trusted friend, or start volunteering/doing campaign work so that your mental or vocal script can be "Yeah, America sucks right now, but I'm working to change that"?
posted by storytam at 3:59 PM on October 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
I don't think this is a personal attack. I think lots of people are really concerned about the negative impact the US is having on the world. I'm a lecturer at a multicultural school in an Anglo country, our school has lots of people from different countries in the Middle East and Asia. I teach English Literature and Critical Thinking so of course this kind of thing comes up. We also discuss the terrible things my own country has done, acknowledging that lots of our countries have done horrendous things in the past and framing it as a 'how can we move on from this/deal with this/ where to from here?'
I don't think you should try to avoid this but rather meet it head on and acknowledge that other people's feelings about this are valid. Many, many people outside America have very strong feelings about past and present US policy. I think that perhaps some people from the US may be surprised at the strength of feeling, actually - a lot of the time people may not talk about it when you are in the room in order to save your feelings.
posted by thereader at 4:02 PM on October 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
I don't think you should try to avoid this but rather meet it head on and acknowledge that other people's feelings about this are valid. Many, many people outside America have very strong feelings about past and present US policy. I think that perhaps some people from the US may be surprised at the strength of feeling, actually - a lot of the time people may not talk about it when you are in the room in order to save your feelings.
posted by thereader at 4:02 PM on October 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
You might want to also factor in that they're basically being required to learn the language of the country oppressing them in order to succeed globally, which is probably not helping their state of mind. For me, at least, recognizing that some of their response is likely a trauma reaction from the purpose of the group itself might help me see it as less personal and more on topic, to some extent.
Can you just acknowledge that? Like, "I recognize it may feel really awful and complicit to be learning or speaking English right now. Since I understand that pretty much no one is 100% enthusiastic about the US right now, including me, it might be helpful to talk a bit about what everyone's goals are for this class. What are you hoping to get out of it? How would speaking better English help you personally right now?"
And then I think you need to work on not taking the snide comments personally, or feeling like you have to defend yourself. "Yep" or "I know" or just pretending not to hear them are ok responses. If they're being snarky at you, it's not really *you* they're attacking, but the projected image of "English teacher."
(That said, if you're doing any sort of "Let's learn about American culture" type activities, that may feel a bit more colonialist/imperialist right now than it would in a less bellicose time.)
posted by lazuli at 4:04 PM on October 29, 2019 [34 favorites]
Can you just acknowledge that? Like, "I recognize it may feel really awful and complicit to be learning or speaking English right now. Since I understand that pretty much no one is 100% enthusiastic about the US right now, including me, it might be helpful to talk a bit about what everyone's goals are for this class. What are you hoping to get out of it? How would speaking better English help you personally right now?"
And then I think you need to work on not taking the snide comments personally, or feeling like you have to defend yourself. "Yep" or "I know" or just pretending not to hear them are ok responses. If they're being snarky at you, it's not really *you* they're attacking, but the projected image of "English teacher."
(That said, if you're doing any sort of "Let's learn about American culture" type activities, that may feel a bit more colonialist/imperialist right now than it would in a less bellicose time.)
posted by lazuli at 4:04 PM on October 29, 2019 [34 favorites]
Yeah, this is NOT a personal attack, and these people recognize you're not meant to answer for your government (and it's a little insulting to them to think otherwise). Maybe the Yemeni student doesn't want to talk about this personal interests and hobbies because that seems totally inconsequential when his town was just bombed and people he loved died and the region is up in flames. The people you're working with have gone through unimaginable trauma that most Westerners cannot truly conceive of and very few, if any, have access to the appropriate resources for that trauma.
On a practical level, I'd just re-direct, and maybe have some stock phrases ("that sounds really difficult", etc) prepared. You also don't need to talk about your own personal beliefs, etc., because this is not about you. It's about learning English and teaching the class in a constructive way, and it's also about the resilience and hope your students show in learning English at the same time they are living in a very uncertain future.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 4:15 PM on October 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
On a practical level, I'd just re-direct, and maybe have some stock phrases ("that sounds really difficult", etc) prepared. You also don't need to talk about your own personal beliefs, etc., because this is not about you. It's about learning English and teaching the class in a constructive way, and it's also about the resilience and hope your students show in learning English at the same time they are living in a very uncertain future.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 4:15 PM on October 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
Yeah, I think you are personalizing this. These folks have undergone so much disruption and trauma. Talking about what happened to them because of US foreign policy is not an attack on you. Also, I'm not sure why you are trying to convince anyone you are on the same side. Listen, acknowledge, and move on.
Are you in therapy? Can you talk to other ELL teachers about this?
posted by bluedaisy at 4:16 PM on October 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Are you in therapy? Can you talk to other ELL teachers about this?
posted by bluedaisy at 4:16 PM on October 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I think one cultural thing to be aware of is that your response — that people being upset at the United States is about you and that you need to prove you are “on the same side” — is a little bit of an American response, like the idea that there are only two sides. The narrative inside the US, that there are good countries, and there are axis of evil countries, has led you to experience this kind of emotional response as being about your culpability.
I would treat it like any other class discussion, as much as you can.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:21 PM on October 29, 2019 [15 favorites]
I would treat it like any other class discussion, as much as you can.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:21 PM on October 29, 2019 [15 favorites]
I didn't vote for this horror & I'm sorry, but I'm not here as a proxy
Also, I wanted to comment on this. The US has done plenty of atrocious things in other countries for generations. This isn't a new feature of the current administration. So whether or not you voted for Trump, we have all certainly paid for these actions (even if we didn't decide on them individually). I think some of this is being a lot more aware of how the US action's around the world have really harmed so many people.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:21 PM on October 29, 2019 [29 favorites]
Also, I wanted to comment on this. The US has done plenty of atrocious things in other countries for generations. This isn't a new feature of the current administration. So whether or not you voted for Trump, we have all certainly paid for these actions (even if we didn't decide on them individually). I think some of this is being a lot more aware of how the US action's around the world have really harmed so many people.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:21 PM on October 29, 2019 [29 favorites]
"Thanks for that. This is clearly very important to talk about. Since we're studying English to express ourselves better, let's start by making sure your subjects and verbs are agreeing. And which of the nouns are count and which are non-count?"
-- one possible response :)
posted by amtho at 4:30 PM on October 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
-- one possible response :)
posted by amtho at 4:30 PM on October 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Speaking as an expat with a long history of travel and being the token American in the room:
I think your boundary between "you" and "country you happened to be born in" could use some refinement. Odds are that like the rest of us you have only a sliver of a hair of an iota of control over what the U.S. does; to take responsibility for all of its actions is madness.
If you’re able to make that distinction then this becomes a much more tractable problem of maintaining control of your classroom.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:33 PM on October 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I think your boundary between "you" and "country you happened to be born in" could use some refinement. Odds are that like the rest of us you have only a sliver of a hair of an iota of control over what the U.S. does; to take responsibility for all of its actions is madness.
If you’re able to make that distinction then this becomes a much more tractable problem of maintaining control of your classroom.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:33 PM on October 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
This is not about you, personally, nor is it an attack on you, personally. It is hardly about you at all, except that you want to encourage your students to keep expressing themselves. If the goal of this class is to get the students comfortable or more comfortable with speaking and writing English, it sounds like this student was able to express himself well in English, because he clearly got the meaning across to you. If it’s a time issue, then you can say “we’re doing short introductions today, but we’ll be doing some creative writing later, and that would be a great topic for your essay, and I look forward to reading more about you and you being able to share it with the class.”
A friend of mine taught ESL to adults for many years and heard many very sad stories (but happy ones too, and some really funny ones). What you’re describing is not unusual, at least in her experience. Keep in mind many students with horror stories linked to the United States have also seen their own government do terrible things. You are not a boogeyman, you are a fellow person. And because these are adults, if your students get upset with you, you can talk to them about it: “I am so sorry, I am so angry this happened, I do not condone it, I feel helpless as well, I’m glad you’re here, I care about you.”
Finally, if you can’t handle this frank discussion about the reality of your students’ lives, then a different type of teaching may be for you.
posted by sallybrown at 5:13 PM on October 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
A friend of mine taught ESL to adults for many years and heard many very sad stories (but happy ones too, and some really funny ones). What you’re describing is not unusual, at least in her experience. Keep in mind many students with horror stories linked to the United States have also seen their own government do terrible things. You are not a boogeyman, you are a fellow person. And because these are adults, if your students get upset with you, you can talk to them about it: “I am so sorry, I am so angry this happened, I do not condone it, I feel helpless as well, I’m glad you’re here, I care about you.”
Finally, if you can’t handle this frank discussion about the reality of your students’ lives, then a different type of teaching may be for you.
posted by sallybrown at 5:13 PM on October 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
To be very frank, you are not entitled to the situation being "fun & gratifying" as you described it. Your students certainly don't see themselves as being entitled to same.
I'm going to assume good faith and think that you're trying to come at this from a place of empathy, but go back to your post and read your words carefully. Then go read stoneweaver's response.
Accepting that other people are allowed to be in a state of discomfort and that it is not something they're doing at you will make things a lot easier.
posted by blerghamot at 10:15 PM on October 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
I'm going to assume good faith and think that you're trying to come at this from a place of empathy, but go back to your post and read your words carefully. Then go read stoneweaver's response.
Accepting that other people are allowed to be in a state of discomfort and that it is not something they're doing at you will make things a lot easier.
posted by blerghamot at 10:15 PM on October 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
There are a LOT of reasons for people to mad at the USA -- past, present, and future. People from the countries with challenging situation have my 100% sympathy and I don't take anything personally. Your European classmates who are complaining? I may agree with their comments but they don't need my apologies considering most European countries aren't innocent of past shittiness. The big thing to remember is that most people, especially those coming from difficult places, understand there is a difference between the people of a country and the rulers of that country. Certainly in oppressive regimes but also in so-called democracies.
Have you ever had something really awful happen to you here in the US or gone through a few weeks or months or years of shittiness? That's what your student in Yemen is experiencing right now x 10 or 100, which explains why they couldn't share his job, interests, etc. Heck, I'm a privileged American in Argentina and I could barely concentrate in class based on the (little) challenges I'm dealing with right now.
I feel for you because it's hard to separate your own identity from your national identity. I went through this when I lived in Germany when George W. Bush was in office. +15 years and I'm living in Argentina while Trump is in office. I'm a much more confident and self-aware person so any critique is now super easy to deal with. You're not there yet but you will get there eventually.
Teaching is not easy, in part because it makes us examine our own privilege and assumptions, but this is a good thing. Your privilege got you this teaching job -- without a BA even!! -- and the price of admission is being called on that privilege. Students at schools in the US, both rich and poor, have a lot of problems, too, and those make teaching tough as well. I'd cry sometimes at night after class but then I remembered my role and got ready for a new day with a smile. Teaching is hard but rewarding!
You can find some phrases to use in these situations. For example, "Thank you for sharing, Adil. I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I hope you and your family stay safe." You could start every class where people share one good thing and bad thing about their week. Set a timer and say, let's discuss this for 5-10 minutes! When there's a minute left, give a gentle reminder, then transition.
posted by smorgasbord at 10:23 PM on October 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Have you ever had something really awful happen to you here in the US or gone through a few weeks or months or years of shittiness? That's what your student in Yemen is experiencing right now x 10 or 100, which explains why they couldn't share his job, interests, etc. Heck, I'm a privileged American in Argentina and I could barely concentrate in class based on the (little) challenges I'm dealing with right now.
I feel for you because it's hard to separate your own identity from your national identity. I went through this when I lived in Germany when George W. Bush was in office. +15 years and I'm living in Argentina while Trump is in office. I'm a much more confident and self-aware person so any critique is now super easy to deal with. You're not there yet but you will get there eventually.
Teaching is not easy, in part because it makes us examine our own privilege and assumptions, but this is a good thing. Your privilege got you this teaching job -- without a BA even!! -- and the price of admission is being called on that privilege. Students at schools in the US, both rich and poor, have a lot of problems, too, and those make teaching tough as well. I'd cry sometimes at night after class but then I remembered my role and got ready for a new day with a smile. Teaching is hard but rewarding!
You can find some phrases to use in these situations. For example, "Thank you for sharing, Adil. I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I hope you and your family stay safe." You could start every class where people share one good thing and bad thing about their week. Set a timer and say, let's discuss this for 5-10 minutes! When there's a minute left, give a gentle reminder, then transition.
posted by smorgasbord at 10:23 PM on October 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
I bet your class is the highlight of the week for many of your students. It may be the only space some feel truly free to express themselves and chance to connect with others. By providing them with a safe space where free speech is encouraged, your online class atmosphere exemplifies the American ideals. You may think your students think of you negatively for your nationality but that night they may be telling their families over dinner how amazing it is to have a teacher who lives in America, who not only teaches them but also truly listens and cares about their lives.
As teachers, we try our best but often never feel quite good enough. Teachers are very respected around the world, but we don't always feel it. As a new teacher, I remember once whining to my mom on how I didn't feel appreciated enough. She said, "Teaching is hard, and that's why you had to go to college to prepare. Appreciation comes in the form of a paycheck. And if you want to feel loved, teach elementary school." After having taught for over a decade, I now feel that appreciation in so many ways and it's humbling and an honor. It's hard to really sense how people are feeling on the other side of a computer screen but please don't assume it's negative!
posted by smorgasbord at 10:36 PM on October 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
As teachers, we try our best but often never feel quite good enough. Teachers are very respected around the world, but we don't always feel it. As a new teacher, I remember once whining to my mom on how I didn't feel appreciated enough. She said, "Teaching is hard, and that's why you had to go to college to prepare. Appreciation comes in the form of a paycheck. And if you want to feel loved, teach elementary school." After having taught for over a decade, I now feel that appreciation in so many ways and it's humbling and an honor. It's hard to really sense how people are feeling on the other side of a computer screen but please don't assume it's negative!
posted by smorgasbord at 10:36 PM on October 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
Stoneweaver's reply is excellent and I wholeheartedly agree that these do not sound like personal attacks. But I have experienced insults against my nationality at work (I'm English and white. I suspect there may be no country/group that white English people have not at some point deeply f-ed over), and some mild self-deprecation then moving on has always worked for me. "Yeah, I'm English. Sorry, can't help it. Now, where were we with [whatever was going on before said insult]?"
posted by Vortisaur at 1:10 AM on October 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Vortisaur at 1:10 AM on October 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
Google white fragility. Work on your own resilience - you deserve for the rest of your life to be as safe and nourishing for you as possible, because part of our responsibility as folks from hegemonising cultures is to be able to hold space for this sort of stuff, and you deserve to be strong and healthy enough to do so. A therapist is a good person to process your feelings with and learn how to hold space. You didn’t choose your place in this hierarchy and neither did they. You’re not a bad person for how you feel, but you can’t put down white privilege by voting against trump etc. It’s dialectical, we’re part of the problem and the solution at the same time. Good luck, I’m cheering for you!
posted by Mistress at 9:21 AM on October 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Mistress at 9:21 AM on October 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
Welp, I am once again late to the party on this one, but since this could have been me 12 years ago I want to share what I would have liked that very confused and touchy college student to know. And yup, this is going to be an essay because I believe coming to terms with this and handling it respectfully and skillfully takes a whole metric ton of reflection. Including on the part of other USian Mefites, of which I am one.
So yeah, this is a thorny subject. It's hard to give a single concise answer because it sounds like there are several types of discussions or comments happening in your classes:
- Students like the one you mention, frankly sharing their lived experience;
- Spontaneous expressions of anger/frustration/upset at US politics and foreign policy in general;
- Deliberately discursive, backhanded remarks from people who may or may not be actively involved in distressing situations.
Part of your (and my) problem is our somewhat warped experience of the world. The fact that these kinds of exchanges seem strange and disruptive to you is partly a function of our privileged insulation from a lot of what's happening outside the US. Criticizing the US is actually a very common conversational topic, for a natural and legitimate reason: America is like a cultural, geopolitical, and historical supermassive black hole warping spacetime in every direction. Good, bad, or indifferent (usually bad), it affects almost everyone. These conversations would probably happen even if you were not present to be "the American in the room", and if anything people may actually be toning it down for you. However, the best way to deal with this is going to vary depending on the type of exchange and the interlocutor.
And yeah, there are going to be times when it is mostly unproductive snark motivated less by genuine outrage than by oneupsmanship and general hostility. But no one else asked to be born into a world controlled by the ideological whims of our ostensible leaders, many* of whom are bellicose racist shitsacks. It’s important to keep this in mind, even when people are being smug, bad-faith ding-dongs--which it does sound like(?) is also a semi-regular occurence in your courses and I understand why it's aggravating and unnerving.
But the above is NOT NOT NOT what you seem to be encountering with a lot of your students. They’re talking about their lived experience—frequently precarious, dangerous, traumatizing—which happens to be what it is because of the actions of people who, yup, represent you and me on the world stage. Those not directly being traumatized in the moment are still living in a world made very frightening by the decisions of a government in which they have even less say than the average American schmoe (which is already minimal let's be real). They don't even have the illusion of control. It's gonna come up, and that's actually pretty normal. Asking your students to stop it would be like asking them never to mention the weather.
In these kinds of conversations, I think the right approach is to be direct and humble about it. Above all do your best NOT to take it personally and get all weird and irritated, or try to ignore the topic. Part of our job as Americans who are trying not to be garbage, is to listen, without being defensive, and then if appropriate to engage respectfully and intelligently with what we’re being told.
You don't have to make a big Sorkin-style speech—sallybrown’s suggestion sounds great. If you were already aware, acknowledge it, that it’s shameful and not acceptable and that it matters to you. If you didn’t know (and frankly there’s a lot we don’t know about, and that’s on purpose), own it, then go through step 1. Will this automatically assuage people's anger or make them see you as "one of the good ones?" Maybe, probably not, but that isn't the point, the point is that you're trying to interact in a respectful not-shit way which is all you can really do on a Skype call.
Now, at the other end of the spectrum are the "snide" comments you mention. At the high risk of starting shit in this already fraught thread, I will tell you that the people who do this with me—looking for a fight or an easy conversational gotcha rather than anearnest if heated discussion--are usually themselves unwilling representatives of countries whose leaders have also done oceans of fucked-up shit to other nations over the past 200-600 years: French, British, Canadians, Australians, etc. (Does that make US imperialism acceptable or even of relative moral equivalence? Fuck no and it is heinous to pretend otherwise! Does that mean they can't be genuinely distressed about it? Fuck no! Does that mean you should indulge this deeply self-serving and aggressive conversational tactic? NOPE!)
As stoneweaver said, these remarks are usually factually correct but require no self-flagellation or rebuttal beyond "yup that's right, US policy is a trash fire that's why I [picketed the Embassy last week/joined a GOTV unit/donate to the HALO Trust]**". This is because they are an obnoxious attempt at bad-faith point-scoring, not a principled objection. Wandering off into a tu quoque pissing contest serves no purpose either. They're not trying to engage, so don't engage with them.
You also asked how not to feel like a "blubbering puddle" after these encounters. There are a few threads I think one has to untangle to try to process this stuff intelligently,respectfully and with minimal awkwardness:
-Truly, sickeningly terrible things are happening everywhere all the time, because we live in a profoundly violent and exploitative world currently controlled in large part by the extremely violent and exploitative US government;
-No, you as an individual are not directly responsible for these terrible things and yes, you have virtually zero control over them;
-Simply mentioning these terrible things is not an attack on you as a person, and to avoid this feeling I (sincerely, non-bitchily, because I did it) recommend re-examining your beliefs about nationality and identity (which is hard because from birth we and people everywhere are taught to inextricably link the two GEE I WONDER WHY THAT COULD BE);
- Sometimes, some people, because they will never encounter or be able to punish those who are actually responsible for America's war crime of the week, actually are going to intentionally take their feelings out on you, which is not entirely fair and it’s normal that you aren’t sure how to deal with it gracefully;
-Although ideally a lot of your interlocutors are going to realize 2) and take that into account;
- Some of them won’t, and that’s tough but ultimately doesn’t threaten your well-being or privilege.
All this is a very long-winded ranty Yankee way of saying, while it's difficult to keep your cool because you sound like a sensitive person with an already-stinging conscience, the more you can remain calm, succinct, and honest in these interactions the better it's going to be for you and especially your students. Yeah, it's not easy, but them's the breaks when you come from the center of the evil empire.
*most
**provided [concrete action] is true, and our responsibility as Americans is to make it true to the best of our abilities.
posted by peakes at 6:19 AM on November 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
So yeah, this is a thorny subject. It's hard to give a single concise answer because it sounds like there are several types of discussions or comments happening in your classes:
- Students like the one you mention, frankly sharing their lived experience;
- Spontaneous expressions of anger/frustration/upset at US politics and foreign policy in general;
- Deliberately discursive, backhanded remarks from people who may or may not be actively involved in distressing situations.
Part of your (and my) problem is our somewhat warped experience of the world. The fact that these kinds of exchanges seem strange and disruptive to you is partly a function of our privileged insulation from a lot of what's happening outside the US. Criticizing the US is actually a very common conversational topic, for a natural and legitimate reason: America is like a cultural, geopolitical, and historical supermassive black hole warping spacetime in every direction. Good, bad, or indifferent (usually bad), it affects almost everyone. These conversations would probably happen even if you were not present to be "the American in the room", and if anything people may actually be toning it down for you. However, the best way to deal with this is going to vary depending on the type of exchange and the interlocutor.
And yeah, there are going to be times when it is mostly unproductive snark motivated less by genuine outrage than by oneupsmanship and general hostility. But no one else asked to be born into a world controlled by the ideological whims of our ostensible leaders, many* of whom are bellicose racist shitsacks. It’s important to keep this in mind, even when people are being smug, bad-faith ding-dongs--which it does sound like(?) is also a semi-regular occurence in your courses and I understand why it's aggravating and unnerving.
But the above is NOT NOT NOT what you seem to be encountering with a lot of your students. They’re talking about their lived experience—frequently precarious, dangerous, traumatizing—which happens to be what it is because of the actions of people who, yup, represent you and me on the world stage. Those not directly being traumatized in the moment are still living in a world made very frightening by the decisions of a government in which they have even less say than the average American schmoe (which is already minimal let's be real). They don't even have the illusion of control. It's gonna come up, and that's actually pretty normal. Asking your students to stop it would be like asking them never to mention the weather.
In these kinds of conversations, I think the right approach is to be direct and humble about it. Above all do your best NOT to take it personally and get all weird and irritated, or try to ignore the topic. Part of our job as Americans who are trying not to be garbage, is to listen, without being defensive, and then if appropriate to engage respectfully and intelligently with what we’re being told.
You don't have to make a big Sorkin-style speech—sallybrown’s suggestion sounds great. If you were already aware, acknowledge it, that it’s shameful and not acceptable and that it matters to you. If you didn’t know (and frankly there’s a lot we don’t know about, and that’s on purpose), own it, then go through step 1. Will this automatically assuage people's anger or make them see you as "one of the good ones?" Maybe, probably not, but that isn't the point, the point is that you're trying to interact in a respectful not-shit way which is all you can really do on a Skype call.
Now, at the other end of the spectrum are the "snide" comments you mention. At the high risk of starting shit in this already fraught thread, I will tell you that the people who do this with me—looking for a fight or an easy conversational gotcha rather than anearnest if heated discussion--are usually themselves unwilling representatives of countries whose leaders have also done oceans of fucked-up shit to other nations over the past 200-600 years: French, British, Canadians, Australians, etc. (Does that make US imperialism acceptable or even of relative moral equivalence? Fuck no and it is heinous to pretend otherwise! Does that mean they can't be genuinely distressed about it? Fuck no! Does that mean you should indulge this deeply self-serving and aggressive conversational tactic? NOPE!)
As stoneweaver said, these remarks are usually factually correct but require no self-flagellation or rebuttal beyond "yup that's right, US policy is a trash fire that's why I [picketed the Embassy last week/joined a GOTV unit/donate to the HALO Trust]**". This is because they are an obnoxious attempt at bad-faith point-scoring, not a principled objection. Wandering off into a tu quoque pissing contest serves no purpose either. They're not trying to engage, so don't engage with them.
You also asked how not to feel like a "blubbering puddle" after these encounters. There are a few threads I think one has to untangle to try to process this stuff intelligently,respectfully and with minimal awkwardness:
-Truly, sickeningly terrible things are happening everywhere all the time, because we live in a profoundly violent and exploitative world currently controlled in large part by the extremely violent and exploitative US government;
-No, you as an individual are not directly responsible for these terrible things and yes, you have virtually zero control over them;
-Simply mentioning these terrible things is not an attack on you as a person, and to avoid this feeling I (sincerely, non-bitchily, because I did it) recommend re-examining your beliefs about nationality and identity (which is hard because from birth we and people everywhere are taught to inextricably link the two GEE I WONDER WHY THAT COULD BE);
- Sometimes, some people, because they will never encounter or be able to punish those who are actually responsible for America's war crime of the week, actually are going to intentionally take their feelings out on you, which is not entirely fair and it’s normal that you aren’t sure how to deal with it gracefully;
-Although ideally a lot of your interlocutors are going to realize 2) and take that into account;
- Some of them won’t, and that’s tough but ultimately doesn’t threaten your well-being or privilege.
All this is a very long-winded ranty Yankee way of saying, while it's difficult to keep your cool because you sound like a sensitive person with an already-stinging conscience, the more you can remain calm, succinct, and honest in these interactions the better it's going to be for you and especially your students. Yeah, it's not easy, but them's the breaks when you come from the center of the evil empire.
*most
**provided [concrete action] is true, and our responsibility as Americans is to make it true to the best of our abilities.
posted by peakes at 6:19 AM on November 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by fiercecupcake at 3:20 PM on October 29, 2019 [2 favorites]