My friend hit on me and another friend innappropriately. What to do?
November 1, 2013 9:21 AM Subscribe
I (female, straight, single, late 20’s) had a small party a few days ago. At the end of the night, one friend (we’ll call him Joe) was lingering late. I didn’t suspect anything, until he kissed me out of nowhere. Not sure what to do in follow up, especially considering that this isn't the first time he's done this to a female friend.
At the time, I froze and pushed him back and told him that he was misunderstanding things, so he got the point. But then he continued to talk to me in a bizarre way: first, he made comments in which he purported to know what I thought (“I think we’re both attracted to each other”, “I think I know what you are looking for”), and when I was unresponsive, he switched to prodding me for my opinion (“Well, what are you looking for in a guy?”, “What would really make you happy?”). Finally, he ended up in a self-pitying tone (“I guess I screwed this up.”, “God, I’m sorry, I’m really sorry to do this to you”). The whole thing was really uncomfortable. I finally asked him to leave (I know I should have done this when things started to get weird… awkwardly, he didn’t leave when he started apologizing). We were both very drunk, but he knew I am single and looking (he was present when I was discussing my dating life with other friends earlier in the night). I’m not terribly good friends with this guy to begin with, he’s more of a casual friend that I know through this group of people. He sent me a text message apology a few days later, and I told him I would like some space.
The kicker? This guy did something very similar to a close mutual friend (Sasha), no more than three months ago! I was upset on behalf of my friend when it happened, but things seemed more complicated in that case: he said he had liked her for a long time, which was believable because they had been friends for a while and were quite close. There was also no kiss, but a lot of projecting of emotions (and even a few of the same lines, like being attracted to each other). It seemed more like a case of “guy awkwardly admits crush, and does a kind of bad job of it” than anything more manipulative or nefarious, but now I’m honestly not sure. We had stopped inviting him to group events after that had happened, but Sasha wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and started extending invites to him again after a break.
I’m pretty torn up about this, and so are my other girl friends in this friend group. Frankly, I don’t think I want to be friends with Joe at all anymore: he crossed a major boundary for me* and one of my closest friends. However, I genuinely thought he was a nice person before, and it’s hard for me to picture him being so manipulative on purpose. I also know that he’s been having a rough time recently and may be struggling with depression, or at least loneliness. I was thinking about writing him an e-mail explaining why I was so upset with everything, why his approach was bad and encouraging him to seek help (ie. therapy); if he were a decent guy, maybe that would help? Then again, it could either send him into a depressive cycle, or if he’s actually a manipulative person, it would play right into his hand.
Sasha (who knows about what happened and was also upset) was thinking about sitting down with him to chat, but she’s not sure she wants to (and I’m encouraging her to not to anything she feels uncomfortable with in the scenario). Another mutual friend was going to have a conversation with him, but she second-guessed the idea after her boyfriend told her to “go easy on the guy because he probably just wanted to get some, and guys do dumb things sometimes” (which, um, made me a bit angry that he said that, but whatever).
What should I do? Should I just cut Joe out for good? Should I contact him with an e-mail? Should I give it some simmer-down time and talk to him? Am I just totally overreacting here?
*I recognize that I wasn’t doing a great job at defending those boundaries. I’m reading The Gift of Fear now and know that I was drunker than I should have been, since it was hard for me to articulate my thoughts or even just to tell the guy to buzz off, so I’m going to be more mindful of my alcohol intake in the future. I would appreciate answers focused on what I should do about this guy specifically in the now. Thanks.
At the time, I froze and pushed him back and told him that he was misunderstanding things, so he got the point. But then he continued to talk to me in a bizarre way: first, he made comments in which he purported to know what I thought (“I think we’re both attracted to each other”, “I think I know what you are looking for”), and when I was unresponsive, he switched to prodding me for my opinion (“Well, what are you looking for in a guy?”, “What would really make you happy?”). Finally, he ended up in a self-pitying tone (“I guess I screwed this up.”, “God, I’m sorry, I’m really sorry to do this to you”). The whole thing was really uncomfortable. I finally asked him to leave (I know I should have done this when things started to get weird… awkwardly, he didn’t leave when he started apologizing). We were both very drunk, but he knew I am single and looking (he was present when I was discussing my dating life with other friends earlier in the night). I’m not terribly good friends with this guy to begin with, he’s more of a casual friend that I know through this group of people. He sent me a text message apology a few days later, and I told him I would like some space.
The kicker? This guy did something very similar to a close mutual friend (Sasha), no more than three months ago! I was upset on behalf of my friend when it happened, but things seemed more complicated in that case: he said he had liked her for a long time, which was believable because they had been friends for a while and were quite close. There was also no kiss, but a lot of projecting of emotions (and even a few of the same lines, like being attracted to each other). It seemed more like a case of “guy awkwardly admits crush, and does a kind of bad job of it” than anything more manipulative or nefarious, but now I’m honestly not sure. We had stopped inviting him to group events after that had happened, but Sasha wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and started extending invites to him again after a break.
I’m pretty torn up about this, and so are my other girl friends in this friend group. Frankly, I don’t think I want to be friends with Joe at all anymore: he crossed a major boundary for me* and one of my closest friends. However, I genuinely thought he was a nice person before, and it’s hard for me to picture him being so manipulative on purpose. I also know that he’s been having a rough time recently and may be struggling with depression, or at least loneliness. I was thinking about writing him an e-mail explaining why I was so upset with everything, why his approach was bad and encouraging him to seek help (ie. therapy); if he were a decent guy, maybe that would help? Then again, it could either send him into a depressive cycle, or if he’s actually a manipulative person, it would play right into his hand.
Sasha (who knows about what happened and was also upset) was thinking about sitting down with him to chat, but she’s not sure she wants to (and I’m encouraging her to not to anything she feels uncomfortable with in the scenario). Another mutual friend was going to have a conversation with him, but she second-guessed the idea after her boyfriend told her to “go easy on the guy because he probably just wanted to get some, and guys do dumb things sometimes” (which, um, made me a bit angry that he said that, but whatever).
What should I do? Should I just cut Joe out for good? Should I contact him with an e-mail? Should I give it some simmer-down time and talk to him? Am I just totally overreacting here?
*I recognize that I wasn’t doing a great job at defending those boundaries. I’m reading The Gift of Fear now and know that I was drunker than I should have been, since it was hard for me to articulate my thoughts or even just to tell the guy to buzz off, so I’m going to be more mindful of my alcohol intake in the future. I would appreciate answers focused on what I should do about this guy specifically in the now. Thanks.
Since he's not that good of a friend, simply stop inviting him places, especially your own home. If you and Sasha and the third friend want to actually stay friends with him, then yeah, maybe have a chat with him about it (and ignore the shitty boyfriend's shitty fucking advice, ugh) in hopes that it might have the desired "wake up, dude" effect, but it will likely make him feel ganged up on and defensive.
posted by elizardbits at 9:26 AM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 9:26 AM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Nothing says you need to continue to be friends with this guy. If you'd rather not hang out with him, do that.
posted by craven_morhead at 9:30 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by craven_morhead at 9:30 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Are you creeped out by this guy in other ways? Because to me this really does sound like he's lonely and getting too drunk, and that maybe it doesn't have to be a huge thing where you sit down and talk to him about it. But you are certainly within your rights to cut someone out of your life for making you feel uncomfortable in any way, and if you and your friends would feel better not having him around any more, you should stop inviting him to things.
posted by something something at 9:31 AM on November 1, 2013 [17 favorites]
posted by something something at 9:31 AM on November 1, 2013 [17 favorites]
I agree with something something. Why make a huge deal out of this? He apologized. Just move on. It doesn't matter that he did it to another female friend. Cut him out if your life.
posted by jayder at 9:34 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by jayder at 9:34 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'd email him if you're likely to have to socialize with him at all in the future. I would lay it out clearly that you do NOT have romantic feelings for him, and I would tell him that he behaved pretty inappropriately and made you really uncomfortable. Because you know he did the exact same thing at least one time previously you can probably guess this is just how he does it. He would be well served to be told that most people do not respond well to that.
"Joe, I really want to clarify some things after what happened a few days ago. From what you said I am gathering you felt that there was some mutual attraction between us, but you were mistaken. I do not have those kinds of feelings for you. I also want you to understand that you went at it in a way that made me very uncomfortable. You should rethink how you go about expressing your interest to women."
If you don't have to socialize with him again, then just stop hanging out with him.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 9:36 AM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
"Joe, I really want to clarify some things after what happened a few days ago. From what you said I am gathering you felt that there was some mutual attraction between us, but you were mistaken. I do not have those kinds of feelings for you. I also want you to understand that you went at it in a way that made me very uncomfortable. You should rethink how you go about expressing your interest to women."
If you don't have to socialize with him again, then just stop hanging out with him.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 9:36 AM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Sorry, I'm not sure that Joe committed such a major transgression. He hit on you, you said no, he apologized, and it doesn't seem like it will happen again. I think you may be totally overreacting here, yes. If you don't want to be friends, don't be friends, but please don't go around villainizing him publicly or anything. Verifying whether there's a romantic potential with an attractive acquaintance is not a crime.
As my friend just pointed out, people have to be allowed to try for sex and be turned down without huge penalty, or else there will never be sex again.
posted by namesarehard at 9:37 AM on November 1, 2013 [46 favorites]
As my friend just pointed out, people have to be allowed to try for sex and be turned down without huge penalty, or else there will never be sex again.
posted by namesarehard at 9:37 AM on November 1, 2013 [46 favorites]
“go easy on the guy because he probably just wanted to get some, and guys do dumb things sometimes”
Shitty advice, but potentially good observation about behavior. You say he has seemed like a genuinely nice person in the past, except for another instance where he was, again, drunk.
If he's lonely, and perhaps not great with girls to begin with, he probably needs a little liquid courage to even approach a girl at all. Of course the alcohol, the loneliness, and popular (though unrealistic) ideas like friends with benefits or one-night-stands among friends, makes him say stupid and inappropriate things too.
If you and your other friends like hanging out with him when sober, perhaps the boundary to be drawn is "Hey Joe, you are a decent guy but your drunken flirting makes me (us) really uncomfortable. Can we all agree to stay a little more sober at future gatherings? Otherwise I'd hate to lose you as a friend."
If you don't care either way, then yeah. Drop him.
posted by trivia genius at 9:37 AM on November 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
Shitty advice, but potentially good observation about behavior. You say he has seemed like a genuinely nice person in the past, except for another instance where he was, again, drunk.
If he's lonely, and perhaps not great with girls to begin with, he probably needs a little liquid courage to even approach a girl at all. Of course the alcohol, the loneliness, and popular (though unrealistic) ideas like friends with benefits or one-night-stands among friends, makes him say stupid and inappropriate things too.
If you and your other friends like hanging out with him when sober, perhaps the boundary to be drawn is "Hey Joe, you are a decent guy but your drunken flirting makes me (us) really uncomfortable. Can we all agree to stay a little more sober at future gatherings? Otherwise I'd hate to lose you as a friend."
If you don't care either way, then yeah. Drop him.
posted by trivia genius at 9:37 AM on November 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
I don't think you are overreacting at all. And your footnote makes me sad; the onus should not be on you to stay sober and in control at all times just in case some guy isn't.
"Cut him out of your life" is an appropriate response. So is "have a serious talk with him, either solo or as a group intervention with Sasha" if you think he's a) worth the effort and b) likely to "get it" -- not that it's your job to teach this guy that what he did was creepy, but it'd be a good deed and might in a small way help make the world a better place. For that matter, "cut him some slack and assume he's going through a rough time but don't wade into the difficult conversation, just take his apology at face value and move on with your life" would be fine too. It really boils down to your read on his real personality and the amount of effort and emotional energy you're willing to put into this.
The only thing that would be a bad idea, I think, would be to try to do this through email. In person or not at all.
posted by ook at 9:39 AM on November 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
"Cut him out of your life" is an appropriate response. So is "have a serious talk with him, either solo or as a group intervention with Sasha" if you think he's a) worth the effort and b) likely to "get it" -- not that it's your job to teach this guy that what he did was creepy, but it'd be a good deed and might in a small way help make the world a better place. For that matter, "cut him some slack and assume he's going through a rough time but don't wade into the difficult conversation, just take his apology at face value and move on with your life" would be fine too. It really boils down to your read on his real personality and the amount of effort and emotional energy you're willing to put into this.
The only thing that would be a bad idea, I think, would be to try to do this through email. In person or not at all.
posted by ook at 9:39 AM on November 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
1. Yes of course you can just not be friends anymore. Possibly his friendship is not close/important enough that you need to try to educate him.
2. But if it might be, do you have a trusted non-dumbass male friend who would understand why what he did was dumb and that he would listen to? That would be a good way to have "a talk."
3. If not, and if you do value his friendship, then maybe a few of you meet with him (not just one, make it clear this is not a romantic prelude) for lunch, and say, look, I know it was awkward, we like you as a friend, and in future, if you want to date someone, just ask them out normally and let them say yes or no (and be ok with that), and don't do the drunken confession/kissing thing, it's creepy and uncomfortable.
Because, maybe, he doesn't know that.
And then, as a follow-up, we want to keep being your friend, but only if you cut this stuff out.
He can react a variety of ways, from the best (Wow, I didn't understand, ok, I will not act this way again) to the not so great (either dodging responsibility for his actions or yelling at you all for being bitches).
If he reacts in any way but the first one, don't invite him places anymore.
posted by emjaybee at 9:41 AM on November 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
2. But if it might be, do you have a trusted non-dumbass male friend who would understand why what he did was dumb and that he would listen to? That would be a good way to have "a talk."
3. If not, and if you do value his friendship, then maybe a few of you meet with him (not just one, make it clear this is not a romantic prelude) for lunch, and say, look, I know it was awkward, we like you as a friend, and in future, if you want to date someone, just ask them out normally and let them say yes or no (and be ok with that), and don't do the drunken confession/kissing thing, it's creepy and uncomfortable.
Because, maybe, he doesn't know that.
And then, as a follow-up, we want to keep being your friend, but only if you cut this stuff out.
He can react a variety of ways, from the best (Wow, I didn't understand, ok, I will not act this way again) to the not so great (either dodging responsibility for his actions or yelling at you all for being bitches).
If he reacts in any way but the first one, don't invite him places anymore.
posted by emjaybee at 9:41 AM on November 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
I think it's okay for you to stop being friends with him, and you don't have to explain yourself at all. If you decide you want to email him something, that's okay, too. This is an email I sent to someone who did this to me at a party over the summer, which might be helpful as a model? Or not!:
Hi, [dude],
We met at [mutual friend's] birthday party on Saturday, where we had a series of interactions I want to follow up with you about.
When we were first chatting, I really enjoyed getting to know you, and I found our conversation comfortable and fun. Later in our interactions, though, I feel that you crossed my boundaries repeatedly in a way that felt bad to me.
I'm writing you this note because I think that you are a good person who didn't mean to be invasive or boundary-crossing, and because I think you would want to know that you did so you can avoid doing it again in the future.
I liked our conversation, but I didn't want to kiss you, and I didn't like it that you didn't negotiate with me -- either verbally or physically -- before pretty forcefully going in for a kiss. When I didn't return your kiss and walked away, that should have been an indication to you that I didn't want that kind of interaction with you.
I was especially bothered that, after I left that exchange, you repeatedly approached me to put your arm around me, kiss my neck, and generally continued to try to be physically intimate with me, despite my lack of reciprocation and the fact that I kept removing myself from interactions with you.
All of this felt really bad to me, and it retroactively soured my enjoyment of our earlier conversations. While it is true that I didn't verbally say "no", I did say no through my actions, and you chose not to recognize or respect that.
It's not enough for a person not to say no -- you also need to make sure they're saying YES. You might find the concept of enthusiastic consent to be useful in understanding the difference here. This is a good article outlining the cultural setting and how seeking enthusiastic consent solves it for all of us: http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2013/03/enthusiastic-consent/. I ask that you read this before you're next in the position of moving a conversation into flirty territory.
If you have any questions about any of this, I'm open to exchanging a couple of emails to clarify as needed. It's also fine if this is all that's said on the matter. I'd also like to reiterate that I'm writing this email because I think this was a misstep, rather than intentionally predatory behavior on your part, and I think and hope that this will help you find a better interaction style for yourself in the future.
posted by spindrifter at 9:41 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hi, [dude],
We met at [mutual friend's] birthday party on Saturday, where we had a series of interactions I want to follow up with you about.
When we were first chatting, I really enjoyed getting to know you, and I found our conversation comfortable and fun. Later in our interactions, though, I feel that you crossed my boundaries repeatedly in a way that felt bad to me.
I'm writing you this note because I think that you are a good person who didn't mean to be invasive or boundary-crossing, and because I think you would want to know that you did so you can avoid doing it again in the future.
I liked our conversation, but I didn't want to kiss you, and I didn't like it that you didn't negotiate with me -- either verbally or physically -- before pretty forcefully going in for a kiss. When I didn't return your kiss and walked away, that should have been an indication to you that I didn't want that kind of interaction with you.
I was especially bothered that, after I left that exchange, you repeatedly approached me to put your arm around me, kiss my neck, and generally continued to try to be physically intimate with me, despite my lack of reciprocation and the fact that I kept removing myself from interactions with you.
All of this felt really bad to me, and it retroactively soured my enjoyment of our earlier conversations. While it is true that I didn't verbally say "no", I did say no through my actions, and you chose not to recognize or respect that.
It's not enough for a person not to say no -- you also need to make sure they're saying YES. You might find the concept of enthusiastic consent to be useful in understanding the difference here. This is a good article outlining the cultural setting and how seeking enthusiastic consent solves it for all of us: http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2013/03/enthusiastic-consent/. I ask that you read this before you're next in the position of moving a conversation into flirty territory.
If you have any questions about any of this, I'm open to exchanging a couple of emails to clarify as needed. It's also fine if this is all that's said on the matter. I'd also like to reiterate that I'm writing this email because I think this was a misstep, rather than intentionally predatory behavior on your part, and I think and hope that this will help you find a better interaction style for yourself in the future.
posted by spindrifter at 9:41 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Frankly, I don’t think I want to be friends with Joe at all anymore
So, don't! You don't have to! He sounds unpleasant to be around. It's not your responsibility to teach him social graces, no mater how awkward or possibly depressed he is.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:42 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
So, don't! You don't have to! He sounds unpleasant to be around. It's not your responsibility to teach him social graces, no mater how awkward or possibly depressed he is.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:42 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Also, just to be clear: It's not your job to solve this guy's bad interactions. It's his. Any input you give him is a favor (though he may not see it that way), but you get to stop at ANY time. He may be a fine person, but his behavior shows he needs to work his shit out about women and boundaries (and his own self), and it's not okay to do that through you, your friends, or any other women in the world.
posted by spindrifter at 9:43 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by spindrifter at 9:43 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
You know what, you don't have to be nice to Joe. If you don't like him, don't hang with him.
You shouldn't have to articulate your reasons. You are a person with agency, do whatever you want.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:44 AM on November 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
You shouldn't have to articulate your reasons. You are a person with agency, do whatever you want.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:44 AM on November 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
I think you might want to tell him off, not in a dramatic way but in a "look, friend, that's messed up" way". As in, you're not asking him to apologize again, you're telling him what's what.
I actually had a similar situation (along with the guy being habitual in late night inappropriate come-ons that were way weird and inappropriate - something I discovered after the fact) and I did tell the 'friend' off. Eventually, he apologized in a more meaningful way, and it was clear he had thought about it. Looking back, I actually think he had alcohol issues and needed to be confronted with the fact that what he was doing wasn't awkward, it was creepy, so he should stop rationalizing it (which is what the description you gave sounds like - he's spinning this situation a lot of ways while he's standing right in front of you but his opening lines were Creep City).
It's not your responsibility to educate him on not being creepy or to police anyone and you should not put yourself out to do this but clearing the air in a way that lets you take control back is actually pretty empowering (because clearly this bothered you in more than a 'Joe is socially awkward' way - you recognized it as a sort of dangerous, uncomfortable situation).
posted by skermunkil at 9:50 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I actually had a similar situation (along with the guy being habitual in late night inappropriate come-ons that were way weird and inappropriate - something I discovered after the fact) and I did tell the 'friend' off. Eventually, he apologized in a more meaningful way, and it was clear he had thought about it. Looking back, I actually think he had alcohol issues and needed to be confronted with the fact that what he was doing wasn't awkward, it was creepy, so he should stop rationalizing it (which is what the description you gave sounds like - he's spinning this situation a lot of ways while he's standing right in front of you but his opening lines were Creep City).
It's not your responsibility to educate him on not being creepy or to police anyone and you should not put yourself out to do this but clearing the air in a way that lets you take control back is actually pretty empowering (because clearly this bothered you in more than a 'Joe is socially awkward' way - you recognized it as a sort of dangerous, uncomfortable situation).
posted by skermunkil at 9:50 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
You are not at all overreacting.
He is not your responsibility, you do not owe him shit, you do not have to dance around this bullshit, and not only has he demonstrated himself to be a terrible friend but also an active danger to you and the women around him. Randomly kissing people is not a thing people do, especially grownups who have zero excuse for not knowing better, and it clearly demonstrates that he is incapable of respecting the basic fucking fundamental rights to bodily integrity and agency of the women around him. This is a big deal and very much worth warning people about.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2013 [29 favorites]
He is not your responsibility, you do not owe him shit, you do not have to dance around this bullshit, and not only has he demonstrated himself to be a terrible friend but also an active danger to you and the women around him. Randomly kissing people is not a thing people do, especially grownups who have zero excuse for not knowing better, and it clearly demonstrates that he is incapable of respecting the basic fucking fundamental rights to bodily integrity and agency of the women around him. This is a big deal and very much worth warning people about.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2013 [29 favorites]
I wouldn't bother with a sit-down or email or whatever. He doesn't understand boundaries or appropriate ways to let people know he's interested. He needs to figure out how not to be a creep for himself.
If it were me, I'd stop hanging out with him and not invite him to things.
posted by quince at 9:54 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
If it were me, I'd stop hanging out with him and not invite him to things.
posted by quince at 9:54 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I feel like I must be missing something. He misread your cues, made a move, you made your disinterest clear, he awkwardly tried to talk you into something, you said no again, and he apologized? And, based on past history with your friend, you have no reason to think he'll ever make another move on you?
What is the problem?
I mean, definitely don't be friends with anyone you don't want to be friends with. It doesn't matter why you feel that way, not wanting to be friends is always enough of a reason.
But I don't understand from the story you've told what the wrong thing is that this guy did, except be awkward. Hitting on single people at parties is not wrong.
posted by prefpara at 9:57 AM on November 1, 2013 [33 favorites]
What is the problem?
I mean, definitely don't be friends with anyone you don't want to be friends with. It doesn't matter why you feel that way, not wanting to be friends is always enough of a reason.
But I don't understand from the story you've told what the wrong thing is that this guy did, except be awkward. Hitting on single people at parties is not wrong.
posted by prefpara at 9:57 AM on November 1, 2013 [33 favorites]
BTW, to isolate the creepy part from my view, it's when he kisses her, she pushes him away, and he says "I think we're both attracted to each other" and "I think I know what you are looking for".
When someone pushes you away when you have kissed them without clear warning the correct response is "sorry, I misread your signals".
posted by skermunkil at 10:02 AM on November 1, 2013 [31 favorites]
When someone pushes you away when you have kissed them without clear warning the correct response is "sorry, I misread your signals".
posted by skermunkil at 10:02 AM on November 1, 2013 [31 favorites]
I think there's something lurking in the background here: different groups and (lord knows) different generations have really different takes on the whole "I think we're attracted to each other so I'll just lean in and kiss her" business. (As you can see by reading various asks where "just kiss her" is common advice.)
For me (late thirties, lower middle class upbringing), it really wouldn't seem like a huge transgression, abusive, a sign of a huge character flaw, etc - it would just seem sort of yuck and ill-advised. More, I would not view it as manipulative to have crushes on two girls in three months after being turned down by one of them, even if the same yuck and ill-advised method was used in both instances.
And I also think there's been a real shift in conversations about consent over the past, say, ten years. I think that there are social circles where the group as a whole has good politics about sexual assault, is basically feminist, etc, and yet "drunkenly kissing someone and being awkward" would not seem like it rose to the level of a significant moral wrong - even though it manifestly involves not getting consent.
I think there's a possibility that this situation may not be one of "creepy guy does creepy thing because he just does not care" but rather a "two sets of relatively-reasonable norms collide" thing. ("Relatively reasonable"? Well, I grew up with the whole "just kiss her" thing being okay, and honestly that wasn't the definition of rape culture. It was just Not Nearly As Effective Or Comfortable For All Parties as, you know, asking if you can kiss someone...so basically, my sense is that you can have "just kiss her" norms without being a creep.)
Obviously, this doesn't mean you need to be friends with the guy, or email him about how to act better or anything - but in terms of thinking through the situation, it might be useful to think about norms around this stuff.
posted by Frowner at 10:04 AM on November 1, 2013 [12 favorites]
For me (late thirties, lower middle class upbringing), it really wouldn't seem like a huge transgression, abusive, a sign of a huge character flaw, etc - it would just seem sort of yuck and ill-advised. More, I would not view it as manipulative to have crushes on two girls in three months after being turned down by one of them, even if the same yuck and ill-advised method was used in both instances.
And I also think there's been a real shift in conversations about consent over the past, say, ten years. I think that there are social circles where the group as a whole has good politics about sexual assault, is basically feminist, etc, and yet "drunkenly kissing someone and being awkward" would not seem like it rose to the level of a significant moral wrong - even though it manifestly involves not getting consent.
I think there's a possibility that this situation may not be one of "creepy guy does creepy thing because he just does not care" but rather a "two sets of relatively-reasonable norms collide" thing. ("Relatively reasonable"? Well, I grew up with the whole "just kiss her" thing being okay, and honestly that wasn't the definition of rape culture. It was just Not Nearly As Effective Or Comfortable For All Parties as, you know, asking if you can kiss someone...so basically, my sense is that you can have "just kiss her" norms without being a creep.)
Obviously, this doesn't mean you need to be friends with the guy, or email him about how to act better or anything - but in terms of thinking through the situation, it might be useful to think about norms around this stuff.
posted by Frowner at 10:04 AM on November 1, 2013 [12 favorites]
"I disagree - how is he supposed to know if you are interested unless he tries to kiss you?"
Grownups from the generation being asked about who respect the boundaries of others ask. OP, you have not asked for ways clumsy straight guys can appropriately hit on women, but seriously, "Is it alright if I kiss you?" is pretty fucking romantic while succeeding at not being shitty. This dude did not just step off of a liberty ship back home and had zero business expecting norms from two generations ago to apply.
posted by Blasdelb at 10:07 AM on November 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
Grownups from the generation being asked about who respect the boundaries of others ask. OP, you have not asked for ways clumsy straight guys can appropriately hit on women, but seriously, "Is it alright if I kiss you?" is pretty fucking romantic while succeeding at not being shitty. This dude did not just step off of a liberty ship back home and had zero business expecting norms from two generations ago to apply.
posted by Blasdelb at 10:07 AM on November 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
norms from two generations ago
I would consider it normal for a guy to kiss a girl as a way of hitting on her without asking for permission, and so would many people in my social circle. Expectations and judgments about appropriate seduction behavior vary, and reasonable people disagree about what is and is not OK.
posted by prefpara at 10:10 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
I would consider it normal for a guy to kiss a girl as a way of hitting on her without asking for permission, and so would many people in my social circle. Expectations and judgments about appropriate seduction behavior vary, and reasonable people disagree about what is and is not OK.
posted by prefpara at 10:10 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
> how is he supposed to know if you are interested unless he tries to kiss you
Flirting.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:10 AM on November 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
Flirting.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:10 AM on November 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
I don't know if he was necessarily being deliberately manipulative and putting on a poor-me act to blow past your boundaries. It sounds like he might just be one of those people who has a set pattern for romantic interactions like "oh, poor me, I always get rejected" and is into the fantasy of building up imaginary mutual attractions and then follows through with it even when the girl in question turns out to be a real person and not the fantasy crush who will magically like him back. The kiss you described sounded like a scene from a movie that he was confused didn't progress according to script, and then, instead of listening, he tried to argue you into going along with how he thought things would be. This is a shitty attitude towards women and can lead to a pretty dangerous mentality, and if someone in your friend group really likes him, they might want to sit him down and have a talk about his romantic approach-- specifically arguing when girls tell him no-- is not OK, how it's creeping people out, violates their boundaries, and is making him seem like a predator. That is not your responsibility at ALL, and if you want to disengage, do it. Also, please don't take away "I should have been more proactive at enforcing my boundaries, it's partially my fault" from Gift of Fear; this was not your fault at all.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 10:15 AM on November 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 10:15 AM on November 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
This guy is bad news. He drinks alcohol, isolates women who are drunk, attempts to be physically intimate with them without consent, tries to tell women what they are thinking. Sounds to me like textbook predatory behavior.
Do you have access to any counseling or advocacy groups, a resource where you might find someone who is willing to take this guy aside and let him know in no uncertain terms what he is doing is wrong and suggest to him how he can learn consent? I wouldn't just shut him out and pass him off. He will just wait until the next party, the next buzz, the next isolated woman and he'll try this shit again and again unless he learns what he's doing is wrong.
It isn't your responsibility to school him because there are professionals who do this as a matter of course in their work. If you can find such a professional, think of it as paying forward that no other woman will ever be on the receiving end of his creeper behavior.
posted by kuppajava at 10:17 AM on November 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
Do you have access to any counseling or advocacy groups, a resource where you might find someone who is willing to take this guy aside and let him know in no uncertain terms what he is doing is wrong and suggest to him how he can learn consent? I wouldn't just shut him out and pass him off. He will just wait until the next party, the next buzz, the next isolated woman and he'll try this shit again and again unless he learns what he's doing is wrong.
It isn't your responsibility to school him because there are professionals who do this as a matter of course in their work. If you can find such a professional, think of it as paying forward that no other woman will ever be on the receiving end of his creeper behavior.
posted by kuppajava at 10:17 AM on November 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
Yeah, this is weird and would make me feel weird, so no need to apologize. I would feel like this is a friend who trawls through his friend groups for romantic partners, which, while not icky on its own, is pretty creepy when you consider that the occurrences with you and Sasha were only 3 months apart. To me, that would read as: he was attracted to Sasha, made a move, was rejected, and then a few months later became attracted to me and DID THE EXACT SAME THING. So, he learned nothing from his previous approach! And, he really doesn't see me as a distinct person, just as Woman who you woo using This Process.
Ugh.
I don't think you need to warn anyone about this, or have an "intervention" with him or anything. Just . . . stop being friends. That's all that's needed here.
posted by chainsofreedom at 10:22 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Ugh.
I don't think you need to warn anyone about this, or have an "intervention" with him or anything. Just . . . stop being friends. That's all that's needed here.
posted by chainsofreedom at 10:22 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Okay, rereading my post, I want to really stress that even if his behavior is coming from a place of poor social skills rather than calculated manipulation, it's still bad news for all the reasons kuppajava describes. You don't have to be friends with someone who is acting like a predator.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 10:26 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 10:26 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Anybody who says "I think I know what you're looking for" while you are physically pushing him away is like the textbook definition of a boundary-pushing creeper. If it was a case of misreading signals, he would apologize and back off once it became clear that he had misread them, not try to override your exceptionally clear signals with his own insistence that he knows you better than you do.
Were this person in my friend circle, I don't know that I would confront him directly. But I would definitely stop being at events where he was, and I definitely might warn other people I saw him being boundary-pushing around.
posted by KathrynT at 10:26 AM on November 1, 2013 [23 favorites]
Were this person in my friend circle, I don't know that I would confront him directly. But I would definitely stop being at events where he was, and I definitely might warn other people I saw him being boundary-pushing around.
posted by KathrynT at 10:26 AM on November 1, 2013 [23 favorites]
Years ago my group of friends ran across a guy who exhibited normal behaviors and was a stand up good guy until you got him drinking. When he was drinking he would hit on women in really creepy ways and it wasn't until we hung out with him a few times and then all talked about it until we realized what was going on. Sometimes alcohol does really strange things to people. I don't think you are overreacting, but I also don't think you need to overthink it as far as using this incident as an example of your boundary setting ability. I don't see any reason to stay friends or you could just not invite him to events where there will be a lot of drinking.
posted by heatherly at 10:28 AM on November 1, 2013
posted by heatherly at 10:28 AM on November 1, 2013
The kicker? This guy did something very similar to a close mutual friend (Sasha), no more than three months ago!
If you had written "Three days ago," I'd join you in your outrage. Three MONTHS ago? Practically a lifetime. So, in my book, that's not a big deal. Yes, he was awkward and forward and didn't back off when he should have, but neither did you. "I finally asked him to leave (I know I should have done this when things started to get weird…)"
I don't think he did anything egregous, but you have every right to determine you don't want to be around hm any more.
Lastly:
"I disagree - how is he supposed to know if you are interested unless he tries to kiss you?"
He asks her out. That approach has worked pretty well since time immemorial.
posted by Dolley at 10:44 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you had written "Three days ago," I'd join you in your outrage. Three MONTHS ago? Practically a lifetime. So, in my book, that's not a big deal. Yes, he was awkward and forward and didn't back off when he should have, but neither did you. "I finally asked him to leave (I know I should have done this when things started to get weird…)"
I don't think he did anything egregous, but you have every right to determine you don't want to be around hm any more.
Lastly:
"I disagree - how is he supposed to know if you are interested unless he tries to kiss you?"
He asks her out. That approach has worked pretty well since time immemorial.
posted by Dolley at 10:44 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
The main issue for me is his terrible behavior after the kiss. He's lucky you didn't punch him in the face because that is what my gut reaction would have been to a jerk tell me how I felt (although, I would refrain from punching him in real life, but in my fantasy world, I would punch him).
Everything after the kiss was creepy. I wouldn't talk to him anymore. I don't know if people like him can be learn appropriate behavior. He sounds like a narcissist and that's not going to change even if you send him an angry note or have a friend sit him down.
posted by parakeetdog at 10:53 AM on November 1, 2013
Everything after the kiss was creepy. I wouldn't talk to him anymore. I don't know if people like him can be learn appropriate behavior. He sounds like a narcissist and that's not going to change even if you send him an angry note or have a friend sit him down.
posted by parakeetdog at 10:53 AM on November 1, 2013
Don't write a letter. Don't invite him to parties. If you see him, be normally pleasant but distant. If he confronts you about why you don't invite him to parties any more, say bluntly that his behavior that night left you uncomfortable, and you don't invite people who make you feel uncomfortable to your parties. Then disengage from the conversation.
posted by davejay at 10:56 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by davejay at 10:56 AM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Once you pushed him away, he stopped physically engaging. Once you made it clear you weren't interested, he apologized. In fact, he was very remorseful.
Some people don't stop -- he did. Unless there's more I'm not getting, I don't think he's the type of guy you have to really worry about. A little, maybe, but not pariah-status.
Of course you don't have to spend time with him if you just don't want to. For any reason.
Also, it sounds like he learned from this experience, but it would be a kindness to give him some guidance. If you're not comfortable talking to him, maybe a mutual friend with some wisdom about human interactions could advise him on how to actually date someone.
posted by amtho at 10:57 AM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Some people don't stop -- he did. Unless there's more I'm not getting, I don't think he's the type of guy you have to really worry about. A little, maybe, but not pariah-status.
Of course you don't have to spend time with him if you just don't want to. For any reason.
Also, it sounds like he learned from this experience, but it would be a kindness to give him some guidance. If you're not comfortable talking to him, maybe a mutual friend with some wisdom about human interactions could advise him on how to actually date someone.
posted by amtho at 10:57 AM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
"I disagree - how is he supposed to know if you are interested unless he tries to kiss you?"
He asks her out. That approach has worked pretty well since time immemorial.
Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner! Use your words. It's 2013. I really hope that men have moved beyond cavemen clubbing a woman on the head and dragging her back to the cave.
That's my problem with a guy kissing someone who doesn't want to be kissed. I've been in a similar situation and I remember feeling paralyzed by shock. How does this progress? "She didn't want to kiss but we still kissed. I wonder what else I can get her to do that she doesn't want to do ..."
You don't need to have A Talk with him, just stop inviting him places. Use the buddy system if you know that he's going to be somewhere where you will be drinking - go with a friend, you both leave together.
And I'm sorry. It sounds like this is something that's stressing you out and that is all on him, not on you.
posted by kat518 at 10:58 AM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
He asks her out. That approach has worked pretty well since time immemorial.
Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner! Use your words. It's 2013. I really hope that men have moved beyond cavemen clubbing a woman on the head and dragging her back to the cave.
That's my problem with a guy kissing someone who doesn't want to be kissed. I've been in a similar situation and I remember feeling paralyzed by shock. How does this progress? "She didn't want to kiss but we still kissed. I wonder what else I can get her to do that she doesn't want to do ..."
You don't need to have A Talk with him, just stop inviting him places. Use the buddy system if you know that he's going to be somewhere where you will be drinking - go with a friend, you both leave together.
And I'm sorry. It sounds like this is something that's stressing you out and that is all on him, not on you.
posted by kat518 at 10:58 AM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, please stick to the question and don't debate each other. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 11:00 AM on November 1, 2013
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 11:00 AM on November 1, 2013
Just stop hanging out with him.
Someone is going to have to talk to him - sober - about respecting boundaries. That person doesn't have to be you.
posted by sm1tten at 11:05 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Someone is going to have to talk to him - sober - about respecting boundaries. That person doesn't have to be you.
posted by sm1tten at 11:05 AM on November 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
First off, what happened was not your fault. Though you believe you didn't protect your boundaries well enough, your friend is the one who crossed them. The active responsibility lies with him.
Second, you're not overreacting. Feel free to cut him off from your social circle and warn other people about his behavior. He misread - or ignored - even Sasha's signals, though he was close to her and should have been able to read them.
You don't need to write a letter or an e-mail, but if you want to, I think you should give it a week or two's time. You could even get a group of people he knows and respects to sit him down and tell him what he did wrong. But again, that should be after some time, both so your feelings can settle somewhat and so you can prepare yourselves.
If you take that route, you could tell him he must get better at reading women he's attracted to, and that some therapists could help him do that. More immediately, what he has done twice, he will probably do a third time and a fourth time: You could tell him that he will hurt people if he continues to go in for it when too drunk to be sensitive to others' cues. He's responsible for his actions; his desire to get laid doesn't allow him to ignore others' right to their own boundaries. And he shouldn't be doing this kind of thing at all if the other person is also really drunk. You could tell him that he can just ask the other person for a date in that situation.
Now all that said, I don't think it's inevitable that someone will sit him down and tell him what he's doing wrong. Some people die never knowing why it is that people dislike them so much. But it isn't Sasha's or your responsibility to be that person, either. Again, you can cut the guy off with a clear conscience. His behavior has been bad. Discuss what you think is the best, least objectionable course of action, and then follow through on whatever you decide.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:37 AM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Second, you're not overreacting. Feel free to cut him off from your social circle and warn other people about his behavior. He misread - or ignored - even Sasha's signals, though he was close to her and should have been able to read them.
You don't need to write a letter or an e-mail, but if you want to, I think you should give it a week or two's time. You could even get a group of people he knows and respects to sit him down and tell him what he did wrong. But again, that should be after some time, both so your feelings can settle somewhat and so you can prepare yourselves.
If you take that route, you could tell him he must get better at reading women he's attracted to, and that some therapists could help him do that. More immediately, what he has done twice, he will probably do a third time and a fourth time: You could tell him that he will hurt people if he continues to go in for it when too drunk to be sensitive to others' cues. He's responsible for his actions; his desire to get laid doesn't allow him to ignore others' right to their own boundaries. And he shouldn't be doing this kind of thing at all if the other person is also really drunk. You could tell him that he can just ask the other person for a date in that situation.
Now all that said, I don't think it's inevitable that someone will sit him down and tell him what he's doing wrong. Some people die never knowing why it is that people dislike them so much. But it isn't Sasha's or your responsibility to be that person, either. Again, you can cut the guy off with a clear conscience. His behavior has been bad. Discuss what you think is the best, least objectionable course of action, and then follow through on whatever you decide.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:37 AM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
It looks to me like you're painting this guy out to be a major villain based on interactions you had while both being "very drunk". His infraction is simply that he was into you (and your friend at another point in time) and was too courageous -- or very assumptive about your feelings towards him, and he drunkenly violated personal boundaries. Yes, a bad thing to do... but you recoiled and he apologized. You got your point across: Not interested.
Something that gets me is that you're using your intoxicated state as an excuse for not "doing a great job at defending those boundaries" which accounts for half of the interaction, yet are dismissive of the fact that his actions occurred while he was also very drunk.
Don't hang out with him if you don't want to hang out with him, as that's your choice, but lecturing him about his drunken behavior and then cutting him out of your social circle seems unnecessarily harsh.
FWIW, I have been on both sides of this kind of situation.
posted by stubbehtail at 11:45 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Something that gets me is that you're using your intoxicated state as an excuse for not "doing a great job at defending those boundaries" which accounts for half of the interaction, yet are dismissive of the fact that his actions occurred while he was also very drunk.
Don't hang out with him if you don't want to hang out with him, as that's your choice, but lecturing him about his drunken behavior and then cutting him out of your social circle seems unnecessarily harsh.
FWIW, I have been on both sides of this kind of situation.
posted by stubbehtail at 11:45 AM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
What he did wrong was arguing with you after you pushed him away. Trying to tell you what you want and what you think is not a good sign, regardless of the context of the interaction. People who do this fall into a distinct category and I tend not to want to be around them. Not because they're dangerous, although some of them can be, but because the way they relate to others makes them an exercise in futility at best.
As stated above, it is not necessarily out of line to signal interest by kissing someone, at least not in certain contexts (a party qualifies for this). Bold, but not necessarily out of line. I understand that many people do not like this, but there are plenty of things that are not liked that are still within the bounds of reasonable behaviour. It's not that he did this, it's what he said afterwards, which was that you didn't want what you said you wanted. Nobody likes being told who they are and what they think, even if the topic is soup. If the topic is kissing someone who just planted one on you out of the blue, and you say you didn't like it and they argue that you actually did/should have, well, that's really not a good sign. Any woman would wonder what was coming next, in the circumstances.
I flag this out because it's really the telling you what you want and what you think that tilts this from an awkward interaction to a warning one. It's not what he did, it's what he told you about himself. I'm not suggesting he's a criminal underneath it all, but he does sound like someone who at best, would not be a good BF nor a good friend.
Trying the same pattern on you and your friend, three months apart, isn't sinister either. Three MONTHS apart. Not three days or three hours apart. What I think is unappealing here is that it's observably the same pattern, wherein he appears spontaneous but it turns out that he has a method that he's applying repeatedly. It's not wrong to have a method nor to apply it repeatedly, but now that both of you have compared notes, it was revealed for the manipulation that it was, and nobody feels charmed to be on the receiving end of that.
And he's doing this within an established friend group? Doing the same routine on two people who may compare notes? Silly fool.
If I were you, I would not bother sitting down and writing him a critique of his game. Like I said, people like this tend to be an exercise in futility, and anyway if it worked, you'd only be telling him how to improve his game and it doesn't seem like you want him to win at that game.
tl;dr It sounds like you don't like him, and I don't blame you. I don't see anything here to warn people about, except in the form of "eeew Warren got me alone at my party and snogged me out of left field and when I told him to cut it out, he argued with me and told me I didn't really know what I wanted. Blech Warren lips! Lips of Warren!"
As for your friend: she had a BF at the time and he was fine with another guy snogging not just a girl, but his girl because that's just what guys do? Because anything that guys do in pursuit of getting laid is fine? He's very generous-hearted, isn't he? I imagine he'll learn the error of his ways somehow or other, eventually.
posted by tel3path at 12:54 PM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
As stated above, it is not necessarily out of line to signal interest by kissing someone, at least not in certain contexts (a party qualifies for this). Bold, but not necessarily out of line. I understand that many people do not like this, but there are plenty of things that are not liked that are still within the bounds of reasonable behaviour. It's not that he did this, it's what he said afterwards, which was that you didn't want what you said you wanted. Nobody likes being told who they are and what they think, even if the topic is soup. If the topic is kissing someone who just planted one on you out of the blue, and you say you didn't like it and they argue that you actually did/should have, well, that's really not a good sign. Any woman would wonder what was coming next, in the circumstances.
I flag this out because it's really the telling you what you want and what you think that tilts this from an awkward interaction to a warning one. It's not what he did, it's what he told you about himself. I'm not suggesting he's a criminal underneath it all, but he does sound like someone who at best, would not be a good BF nor a good friend.
Trying the same pattern on you and your friend, three months apart, isn't sinister either. Three MONTHS apart. Not three days or three hours apart. What I think is unappealing here is that it's observably the same pattern, wherein he appears spontaneous but it turns out that he has a method that he's applying repeatedly. It's not wrong to have a method nor to apply it repeatedly, but now that both of you have compared notes, it was revealed for the manipulation that it was, and nobody feels charmed to be on the receiving end of that.
And he's doing this within an established friend group? Doing the same routine on two people who may compare notes? Silly fool.
If I were you, I would not bother sitting down and writing him a critique of his game. Like I said, people like this tend to be an exercise in futility, and anyway if it worked, you'd only be telling him how to improve his game and it doesn't seem like you want him to win at that game.
tl;dr It sounds like you don't like him, and I don't blame you. I don't see anything here to warn people about, except in the form of "eeew Warren got me alone at my party and snogged me out of left field and when I told him to cut it out, he argued with me and told me I didn't really know what I wanted. Blech Warren lips! Lips of Warren!"
As for your friend: she had a BF at the time and he was fine with another guy snogging not just a girl, but his girl because that's just what guys do? Because anything that guys do in pursuit of getting laid is fine? He's very generous-hearted, isn't he? I imagine he'll learn the error of his ways somehow or other, eventually.
posted by tel3path at 12:54 PM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Someone deciding that they're going to mash their mucous membranes against yours without asking if that's OK: Ew.
Someone presuming to tell you what you're feeling and/or thinking without you actually saying what you're feeling and/or thinking: Ugh.
Someone trying to hassle you into giving them information that it should be obvious that you don't want to give them and that they don't need: This is what doorstep sellers do.
Someone trying to guilt trip you: bad sign, this is not adult behaviour.
That said, I think you've done enough. You told him you wanted space, so now just keep adding to that space. Don't engage with him again. You now know how he's likely to behave when he's drunk. You don't seem to want to be around that, and that's 100% A-OK. You don't owe anyone an explanation for why you don't want to be around them.
There are far better ways Joe could have handled this, such as maybe "I really like you, do you want to get a coffee sometime?". Sasha, or Other Mutual Friend, having a conversation with him would be a kindness to him, but that is up to Sasha or Other Mutual Friend. Don't be involved in that unless you want to get drawn into this individual's circle again. I don't honestly know how I'd handle telling other people what he's like, although I'd likely bring it up with people.
Kudos to you for doing something about the situation re Gift of Fear, etc.
posted by Solomon at 12:58 PM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Someone presuming to tell you what you're feeling and/or thinking without you actually saying what you're feeling and/or thinking: Ugh.
Someone trying to hassle you into giving them information that it should be obvious that you don't want to give them and that they don't need: This is what doorstep sellers do.
Someone trying to guilt trip you: bad sign, this is not adult behaviour.
That said, I think you've done enough. You told him you wanted space, so now just keep adding to that space. Don't engage with him again. You now know how he's likely to behave when he's drunk. You don't seem to want to be around that, and that's 100% A-OK. You don't owe anyone an explanation for why you don't want to be around them.
There are far better ways Joe could have handled this, such as maybe "I really like you, do you want to get a coffee sometime?". Sasha, or Other Mutual Friend, having a conversation with him would be a kindness to him, but that is up to Sasha or Other Mutual Friend. Don't be involved in that unless you want to get drawn into this individual's circle again. I don't honestly know how I'd handle telling other people what he's like, although I'd likely bring it up with people.
Kudos to you for doing something about the situation re Gift of Fear, etc.
posted by Solomon at 12:58 PM on November 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Ok so i'll just come right out and say, i'm kinda annoyed with some of the responses in here.
First of all
know that I was drunker than I should have been, since it was hard for me to articulate my thoughts or even just to tell the guy to buzz off, so I’m going to be more mindful of my alcohol intake in the future.
This is something i rag on a lot, and i can't find the link right now(and my computer is working like shit, woo!) but there was a long paper written by someone on how lots of men who are perfectly good at reading signals from people suddenly "had no idea!" when those signals are negative ones from a woman they were hitting on. They just act coy and refuse to acknowledge that the signs were right there which they did see.
I'd be willing to bet you were perfectly fine at communicating that you weren't interested and he just refused to take no for an answer. Which gets in to the Meat Of My Point.
He is either:
A. Somewhere between a manipulative boundary crasher and a predator
B. A socially awkward nerd who doesn't know any better when it comes to interacting with women he's attracted to
C. Someone who gets drunk enough that they make an ass of themselves around women
D. you pick two combo! like at that one restaurant
The real issue here though is that* it doesn't fucking matter which on he is. They all present the same. It's like debating if he pissed in your bed as some bizarre malicious thing or if he pissed in your bed because he was drunk. If he reacts extremely poorly after being called out then it just doesn't matter.
This guy is a boundary tester/crasher who makes women uncomfortable at parties. Why would you want him around? Why does it actually matter why he did this? Why should you or any of your friends be the 911 driving academy for hitting on girls for him? You're not "making the world a better place" by educating this one dude, there's fucking hundreds of thousands and possible even millions of guys who are shitty about this out there. You're only taking away from you and your friends enjoyment of your limited time on this earth. Seriously, fuck that, and fuck running a charity in that sense out of some weird sense of obligation and weird social preloading of women in this society that you should "look inwards" and "have compassion" when men act shitty because they "probably weren't being malicious" or whatever. This is the kind of thinking that lets the actual predators fly under the radar**. This guy isn't your best friends autistic younger brother who doesn't know better or some shit, that you actually have a reason to be around.
A guy whose "otherwise fine" but a boundary crasher in situations where he sees the iron as hot to strike, when those situations are "interacting sexually with women" isn't a cool guy.
And as sort of a closing paragraph, i'm saying that as a dude in his mid 20s whose known several guys like this and lived with/was kinda ok friends with one. He isn't someone you want around, and it doesn't really matter why he acts this way over and over. Why keep someone around who makes people uncomfortable(and especially a guy, doing it to women, since that's fraught with all kinds of shit) and has demonstrated this isn't an isolated incident of being totally hammered on the 4th of july or something?***
I think you may do well to read some of the good posts about nerds crashing boundaries with women at conventions in this thread since it's a quite similar area and type of behavior, and especially my post in there about my experiences with "missing stairs". And the article that started the missing stair term. Because this guy sounds like a missing stair.
I'm imploring you here to not let a situation like that be created. In which you and several of your friends know that this guy sucks and crosses/tests boundaries, and then a new lady friend comes in to the group! some friend of yours girlfriend, a work friend, etc... and bumps in to this guy... and something shitty happens, even if it's just the same thing that's happened to you.
I know if that happened to me and the response i got from you and your friend was "oh yea, he does that" i'd be pretty fucking pissed that no one told me. And how shitty would you feel? Not to mention, what about the other people he's probably acted this way(or maybe worse?) towards who just put it in to their round file of "low level the universe sucks people suck this shit happens meh" and you guys never heard about it?
MMMM-yea. Fuck that.
*besides the fact that you didn't fucking do anything wrong! this is like getting rear ended. Assholes can try and convince you that you "stopped too quickly" or whatever, but it doesn't make it your fault
**and for what it's worth, i don't think this guy is necessarily a predator. I think it's pretty much just as likely that he is as that he isn't.
***And i mean even then, i'd be 100% supporting some kind of "no, puppy, you get to go lay down in your kennel and feel shitting about biting my friend. we're not hanging out with you for a few weeks wallow in the turds you lay" sort of response of actually making him feel bad about it. Because seriously, fuck this shit.
posted by emptythought at 1:26 PM on November 1, 2013 [18 favorites]
First of all
know that I was drunker than I should have been, since it was hard for me to articulate my thoughts or even just to tell the guy to buzz off, so I’m going to be more mindful of my alcohol intake in the future.
This is something i rag on a lot, and i can't find the link right now(and my computer is working like shit, woo!) but there was a long paper written by someone on how lots of men who are perfectly good at reading signals from people suddenly "had no idea!" when those signals are negative ones from a woman they were hitting on. They just act coy and refuse to acknowledge that the signs were right there which they did see.
I'd be willing to bet you were perfectly fine at communicating that you weren't interested and he just refused to take no for an answer. Which gets in to the Meat Of My Point.
He is either:
A. Somewhere between a manipulative boundary crasher and a predator
B. A socially awkward nerd who doesn't know any better when it comes to interacting with women he's attracted to
C. Someone who gets drunk enough that they make an ass of themselves around women
D. you pick two combo! like at that one restaurant
The real issue here though is that* it doesn't fucking matter which on he is. They all present the same. It's like debating if he pissed in your bed as some bizarre malicious thing or if he pissed in your bed because he was drunk. If he reacts extremely poorly after being called out then it just doesn't matter.
This guy is a boundary tester/crasher who makes women uncomfortable at parties. Why would you want him around? Why does it actually matter why he did this? Why should you or any of your friends be the 911 driving academy for hitting on girls for him? You're not "making the world a better place" by educating this one dude, there's fucking hundreds of thousands and possible even millions of guys who are shitty about this out there. You're only taking away from you and your friends enjoyment of your limited time on this earth. Seriously, fuck that, and fuck running a charity in that sense out of some weird sense of obligation and weird social preloading of women in this society that you should "look inwards" and "have compassion" when men act shitty because they "probably weren't being malicious" or whatever. This is the kind of thinking that lets the actual predators fly under the radar**. This guy isn't your best friends autistic younger brother who doesn't know better or some shit, that you actually have a reason to be around.
A guy whose "otherwise fine" but a boundary crasher in situations where he sees the iron as hot to strike, when those situations are "interacting sexually with women" isn't a cool guy.
And as sort of a closing paragraph, i'm saying that as a dude in his mid 20s whose known several guys like this and lived with/was kinda ok friends with one. He isn't someone you want around, and it doesn't really matter why he acts this way over and over. Why keep someone around who makes people uncomfortable(and especially a guy, doing it to women, since that's fraught with all kinds of shit) and has demonstrated this isn't an isolated incident of being totally hammered on the 4th of july or something?***
I think you may do well to read some of the good posts about nerds crashing boundaries with women at conventions in this thread since it's a quite similar area and type of behavior, and especially my post in there about my experiences with "missing stairs". And the article that started the missing stair term. Because this guy sounds like a missing stair.
I'm imploring you here to not let a situation like that be created. In which you and several of your friends know that this guy sucks and crosses/tests boundaries, and then a new lady friend comes in to the group! some friend of yours girlfriend, a work friend, etc... and bumps in to this guy... and something shitty happens, even if it's just the same thing that's happened to you.
I know if that happened to me and the response i got from you and your friend was "oh yea, he does that" i'd be pretty fucking pissed that no one told me. And how shitty would you feel? Not to mention, what about the other people he's probably acted this way(or maybe worse?) towards who just put it in to their round file of "low level the universe sucks people suck this shit happens meh" and you guys never heard about it?
MMMM-yea. Fuck that.
*besides the fact that you didn't fucking do anything wrong! this is like getting rear ended. Assholes can try and convince you that you "stopped too quickly" or whatever, but it doesn't make it your fault
**and for what it's worth, i don't think this guy is necessarily a predator. I think it's pretty much just as likely that he is as that he isn't.
***And i mean even then, i'd be 100% supporting some kind of "no, puppy, you get to go lay down in your kennel and feel shitting about biting my friend. we're not hanging out with you for a few weeks wallow in the turds you lay" sort of response of actually making him feel bad about it. Because seriously, fuck this shit.
posted by emptythought at 1:26 PM on November 1, 2013 [18 favorites]
Yeah, it's pretty simple, and people are getting way too deep about this. You said you're not close with him, you said you don't want to be his friend. Don't hang out with him, don't invite him places, and maybe he'll spend a sober moment one day thinking about why girls he thought liked him no longer want to hang out with him once he kisses them unprovoked.
posted by destructive cactus at 2:22 PM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by destructive cactus at 2:22 PM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
OP, you are not overreacting. it makes me sad you felt you had to add that footnote defending that you were drunk in your own home at the end of a party you threw (although judging by some of the responses here, I guess you did have to). I have been kissed "out of the blue" in an appropriate way - eye contact, leaning in, that thing where you look back and forth from eyes to lips - and in an inappropriate way - spun around and mouth mashed by a person I couldn't even identify until I pushed him away. There's a big difference between the two, and the people saying that the human race would die out if no one ever kissed anyone randomly would do well to figure out what it it is. I'd ice this guy out but up to you if you want to let him know that developing a rep as the guy that waits til the end of the party to corner the last drunk girl isn't in his best interest. I don't think any course of action here is going to be the wrong one.
posted by coupdefoudre at 3:47 PM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by coupdefoudre at 3:47 PM on November 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
You don't want to be friends and that's okay.
End of story.
If you want to know where he crossed what I consider a line of reasonableness, I fully agree with tel3path. It's the telling you that you're wrong about what you're telling him that you want.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:34 PM on November 1, 2013
End of story.
If you want to know where he crossed what I consider a line of reasonableness, I fully agree with tel3path. It's the telling you that you're wrong about what you're telling him that you want.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:34 PM on November 1, 2013
delusional, aspirational thoughts: it's a hell of a drug.
the one thing i want to add is that if you've decided to not hang out with him again, and are deciding whether or not to tell him why, one thing to consider is that he may contact you or your group of friends, trying to hang out. the idea is that without an explicit "get lost" there's an implicit "water under the bridge" thing. explaining why you don't want to be friends once may be awkward, but could avoid multiple awkward moments in the future when he tries to reconnect.
posted by cupcake1337 at 8:33 PM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
the one thing i want to add is that if you've decided to not hang out with him again, and are deciding whether or not to tell him why, one thing to consider is that he may contact you or your group of friends, trying to hang out. the idea is that without an explicit "get lost" there's an implicit "water under the bridge" thing. explaining why you don't want to be friends once may be awkward, but could avoid multiple awkward moments in the future when he tries to reconnect.
posted by cupcake1337 at 8:33 PM on November 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
He sounds like he's clueless about women, as in tone deaf and blind to 'I'm not interested' signals. Either that or he's getting very bad advice from his friends. Also it probably worked once or twice in the past with women who were too nice or were, in fact, interested. If you made it clear you're not interested and he didn't take 'no' for an answer then yes he behaved inappropriately. That's why you feel uncomfortable.
If you want to be charitable you could write him an email laying out the fact that he is misreading signals (from both you and your friend) and he needs to get that sorted out or he may find himself in hot water if he continues to try to get physical with women who are not interested.
posted by lillian.elmtree at 6:14 AM on November 3, 2013
If you want to be charitable you could write him an email laying out the fact that he is misreading signals (from both you and your friend) and he needs to get that sorted out or he may find himself in hot water if he continues to try to get physical with women who are not interested.
posted by lillian.elmtree at 6:14 AM on November 3, 2013
I genuinely thought he was a nice person before
There's lots of genuinely nice people out there you could be friends with who haven't acted this way. If you don't want to be friends with this guy in particular, don't be friends with him.
You don't know him well enough to know if he'd get anything meaningful out of explaining your feelings, and you don't want to be friends, it's OK to just not contact him.
posted by yohko at 4:19 PM on November 4, 2013
There's lots of genuinely nice people out there you could be friends with who haven't acted this way. If you don't want to be friends with this guy in particular, don't be friends with him.
You don't know him well enough to know if he'd get anything meaningful out of explaining your feelings, and you don't want to be friends, it's OK to just not contact him.
posted by yohko at 4:19 PM on November 4, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 9:25 AM on November 1, 2013 [23 favorites]