Should I stay... Or really, how should I go?
August 25, 2013 9:16 AM Subscribe
How do I navigate a breakup with this woman who I respect and love, in a way that might encourage her to get better and find some happiness? Or should I even break up with her, given the potential good things that might come along if she did process through some of her stuff?
Hello good people of AskMe.
A while ago I posted this question.
We are still together. We have resolved (or at least suppressed) many of our issues. No more big screaming dangerous fights. Our lives now consist mainly of cooking dinner and watching netflix on the couch. Still good sex. Still shared worldview. Still a good degree of mutual respect for each other's intellect, professional prowess and whatnot.
However, after this pretty good year, for a variety of reasons I am close to breaking it off. I don't want to, I think we have lots of good things that are worth keeping, but I don't think we'll ever develop intimacy and trust because of the things that happened when we were first getting together. And I still have some, although much less, ambivalence about settling down with a life partner. And I don't really want to have a relationship that's limited to watching netflix on the couch because more challenging things might lead to problems. I don't want to move forward (ie move in together or express emotional commitment to a longer term thing) in a relationship that has the possibility of getting really bad all of the sudden.
As I have been thinking about our relationship, I have come to the conclusion that most of the problems are hers, not mine. Not to say that I don't have my own issues, but really they pale in comparison. I should have bailed a long time ago before our lives got this entangled, but my life situation back then blinded me to some things. I realize this now, wish I could have realized it then. Live and learn.
She had a very traumatic childhood/teenage life. Her relationships have been mostly with drug addicts or otherwise mentally ill people. Her first partner was much older (probably illegally so at the beginning of their relationship) and just recently got out of federal prison.
So I don't know why I didn't realize this at first, but she doesn't exactly have many (actually any) healthy relationship models to draw on, and her shitty behavior is a direct result of the shitty things that other people have done to her throughout her life. Well, maybe I do know why I didn't realize it: because she has done very well for herself. She seems super together, does really difficult work with ease, is in fact a paragon in our particular field. Believe it or not, she has good interpersonal skills. It just seems to be within intimate relationships that all the problems come out.
So here is my question:
How do I navigate a breakup with this woman who I respect and love, in a way that might encourage her to get better and find some happiness? Or should I even break up with her, given the potential good things that might come along if she did process through some of this stuff?
Some possibilities I see are:
1. We stay together and go to counseling. The relationship works out or it doesn't, but she's had some professional attention and advice before things end or get better. And maybe things do get better!
2. I just cut the strings and hope she figures it out on her own.
3. I break up with her but let her know what I'm thinking. How would I even bring up this realization - I mean, should I even say something along the lines of "I own my part in our problems but I think you have some serious issues and you would be a lot happier if you processed through them with a professional." That seems like a bad idea and a recipe for drama but I really wish I could communicate it to her in some way. If I were to do this, how might I go about it?
Thank you!
Hello good people of AskMe.
A while ago I posted this question.
We are still together. We have resolved (or at least suppressed) many of our issues. No more big screaming dangerous fights. Our lives now consist mainly of cooking dinner and watching netflix on the couch. Still good sex. Still shared worldview. Still a good degree of mutual respect for each other's intellect, professional prowess and whatnot.
However, after this pretty good year, for a variety of reasons I am close to breaking it off. I don't want to, I think we have lots of good things that are worth keeping, but I don't think we'll ever develop intimacy and trust because of the things that happened when we were first getting together. And I still have some, although much less, ambivalence about settling down with a life partner. And I don't really want to have a relationship that's limited to watching netflix on the couch because more challenging things might lead to problems. I don't want to move forward (ie move in together or express emotional commitment to a longer term thing) in a relationship that has the possibility of getting really bad all of the sudden.
As I have been thinking about our relationship, I have come to the conclusion that most of the problems are hers, not mine. Not to say that I don't have my own issues, but really they pale in comparison. I should have bailed a long time ago before our lives got this entangled, but my life situation back then blinded me to some things. I realize this now, wish I could have realized it then. Live and learn.
She had a very traumatic childhood/teenage life. Her relationships have been mostly with drug addicts or otherwise mentally ill people. Her first partner was much older (probably illegally so at the beginning of their relationship) and just recently got out of federal prison.
So I don't know why I didn't realize this at first, but she doesn't exactly have many (actually any) healthy relationship models to draw on, and her shitty behavior is a direct result of the shitty things that other people have done to her throughout her life. Well, maybe I do know why I didn't realize it: because she has done very well for herself. She seems super together, does really difficult work with ease, is in fact a paragon in our particular field. Believe it or not, she has good interpersonal skills. It just seems to be within intimate relationships that all the problems come out.
So here is my question:
How do I navigate a breakup with this woman who I respect and love, in a way that might encourage her to get better and find some happiness? Or should I even break up with her, given the potential good things that might come along if she did process through some of this stuff?
Some possibilities I see are:
1. We stay together and go to counseling. The relationship works out or it doesn't, but she's had some professional attention and advice before things end or get better. And maybe things do get better!
2. I just cut the strings and hope she figures it out on her own.
3. I break up with her but let her know what I'm thinking. How would I even bring up this realization - I mean, should I even say something along the lines of "I own my part in our problems but I think you have some serious issues and you would be a lot happier if you processed through them with a professional." That seems like a bad idea and a recipe for drama but I really wish I could communicate it to her in some way. If I were to do this, how might I go about it?
Thank you!
I suggest you try (1). From reading this and the previous question I'm skeptical of whether a breakup will "stick," unless you've tried counseling.
posted by Unified Theory at 9:24 AM on August 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Unified Theory at 9:24 AM on August 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you want to help her, tell her your concerns now. If you want to break up with her, just break up with her. It isn't your duty to fix or save her, whether she's your partner or your ex.
And telling someone about their "serious issues" when you break up with them never helps. Breakups are hard to get through no matter what, and emotions often get the better of reason when you're processing them. If you try to tell someone what's wrong with them while breaking up with them, especially if they're issues you've never really discussed before, the other person will either hear "Surprise! I've totally about-faced on you, so don't take anything I say seriously" or "You're hopelessly broken and this is all your fault." Neither of these lend to clarity or insight.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:34 AM on August 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
And telling someone about their "serious issues" when you break up with them never helps. Breakups are hard to get through no matter what, and emotions often get the better of reason when you're processing them. If you try to tell someone what's wrong with them while breaking up with them, especially if they're issues you've never really discussed before, the other person will either hear "Surprise! I've totally about-faced on you, so don't take anything I say seriously" or "You're hopelessly broken and this is all your fault." Neither of these lend to clarity or insight.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:34 AM on August 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
I think #3 will be interpreted by her as "we can get back together once you've fixed yourself." Only say that if you really, really mean it, and be clear about what "fixed" means.
posted by desjardins at 9:35 AM on August 25, 2013
posted by desjardins at 9:35 AM on August 25, 2013
This seems tough, because if she has all these issues from her past, they aren't going to change. The behavior that results from those issues isn't going to change either, unless it's something she recognizes and wants to work on.
From the sound of your question, in spite of your affection for this person, you seem to have already checked out of the relationship. That's okay. It doesn't make you a horrible person if you aren't in a place where you want to deal with these sorts of issues, or if you don't want to invest more time in a relationship that you are ambivalent about.
From the sound of things, I would suggest having an honest talk with her about the situation and your feelings. You don't need to be cruel about it. Be honest, but try to have some tact - such as "I know you have had these experiences in the past, and I feel like it is having a negative effect on our relationship." If this is something she understands, and feels like she can work on or address, you can go from there. Otherwise, be honest and break up.
You don't need to give her a lecture on how she needs to change herself, but telling her how it is effecting you and your relationship will at least give her an idea if she does get to a place where she can deal with those behaviors in the future - even if it isn't with you. If she isn't in a place where she can deal with these things, be kind to yourself and move on.
posted by madelf at 9:39 AM on August 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
From the sound of your question, in spite of your affection for this person, you seem to have already checked out of the relationship. That's okay. It doesn't make you a horrible person if you aren't in a place where you want to deal with these sorts of issues, or if you don't want to invest more time in a relationship that you are ambivalent about.
From the sound of things, I would suggest having an honest talk with her about the situation and your feelings. You don't need to be cruel about it. Be honest, but try to have some tact - such as "I know you have had these experiences in the past, and I feel like it is having a negative effect on our relationship." If this is something she understands, and feels like she can work on or address, you can go from there. Otherwise, be honest and break up.
You don't need to give her a lecture on how she needs to change herself, but telling her how it is effecting you and your relationship will at least give her an idea if she does get to a place where she can deal with those behaviors in the future - even if it isn't with you. If she isn't in a place where she can deal with these things, be kind to yourself and move on.
posted by madelf at 9:39 AM on August 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
Why can't you just say it to her straight up?
I don't think we'll ever develop intimacy and trust because of the things that happened when we were first getting together.
"When I say the things that happened I'm referring to our epic fights, which I felt you pushed into situations that were dangerous, like crawling into my car and trying to take the keys out while it was moving."
"Even though I love and respect you, I realize now that those things permanently damaged our chance at having the amount of intimacy and trust that I want"
"I think that you could have a really good relationship with someone else if you could start over with a clean slate."
I think there is something to be said for just giving it to someone straight and I would really appreciate it, in her shoes, if you said that to me.
posted by cairdeas at 9:39 AM on August 25, 2013 [7 favorites]
I don't think we'll ever develop intimacy and trust because of the things that happened when we were first getting together.
"When I say the things that happened I'm referring to our epic fights, which I felt you pushed into situations that were dangerous, like crawling into my car and trying to take the keys out while it was moving."
"Even though I love and respect you, I realize now that those things permanently damaged our chance at having the amount of intimacy and trust that I want"
"I think that you could have a really good relationship with someone else if you could start over with a clean slate."
I think there is something to be said for just giving it to someone straight and I would really appreciate it, in her shoes, if you said that to me.
posted by cairdeas at 9:39 AM on August 25, 2013 [7 favorites]
It sounds like you guys have gone from one extreme to another and in both cases manage to actually avoid talking about things that need to be talked about. I honestly would at least give number 1 a try if you are serious that you want to develop intimacy and trust with this woman, here is the thing you also have to be in a position she can trust you for this to work and if you are already half out the door and thinking of leaving why should she trust you with any sort of emotional intimacy. So don't do this unless you are 100% committed to making it work.
If, however, you are already out the door mentally and want to go then I would go, if she asks why explain why but option 3 even with you claiming "part" responsibility just looks like blame dumping and I doubt she will hear what you say OR she will think if she "fixes" herself to be how you want that you'll stay so. I do think if you can find a good clear way to explain it, and cairdeas has great ideas, this would be the best option if you aren't fully invested in the relationship.
posted by wwax at 9:41 AM on August 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
If, however, you are already out the door mentally and want to go then I would go, if she asks why explain why but option 3 even with you claiming "part" responsibility just looks like blame dumping and I doubt she will hear what you say OR she will think if she "fixes" herself to be how you want that you'll stay so. I do think if you can find a good clear way to explain it, and cairdeas has great ideas, this would be the best option if you aren't fully invested in the relationship.
posted by wwax at 9:41 AM on August 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, as someone who entered adulthood with a metric fuckload of issues from my past, I feel like I have come really long way on them over the years, so I obviously think it can be done. Your girlfriend may not be the same as me, but I have always felt like I have improved by leaps and bounds when someone isn't afraid to tell me the hard truth about myself, and it really is true (as opposed to them trying to hurt me or score points in some way, which is very different).
For example, sometime towards the end of high school, one of my best friends turned to me and said, "you lie to me a LOT and it's OBVIOUS, and I don't like it." I was stunned. Growing up, hiding the truth was often the difference between getting hit a lot and getting hit a whole fuck of a lot, so to me, lying wasn't something I did to hurt other people, it was just something pretty innocent I did to protect myself. Anyway, I was stunned and I'm glad she just hit me with the truth then, because I could have gone a whole lot longer being way more dysfunctional in that particular way, and truly thinking that it was no big deal and wasn't really affecting any of my personal relationships for the worse.
posted by cairdeas at 9:49 AM on August 25, 2013 [26 favorites]
For example, sometime towards the end of high school, one of my best friends turned to me and said, "you lie to me a LOT and it's OBVIOUS, and I don't like it." I was stunned. Growing up, hiding the truth was often the difference between getting hit a lot and getting hit a whole fuck of a lot, so to me, lying wasn't something I did to hurt other people, it was just something pretty innocent I did to protect myself. Anyway, I was stunned and I'm glad she just hit me with the truth then, because I could have gone a whole lot longer being way more dysfunctional in that particular way, and truly thinking that it was no big deal and wasn't really affecting any of my personal relationships for the worse.
posted by cairdeas at 9:49 AM on August 25, 2013 [26 favorites]
I don't have any useful advice on the should-we-break-up-or-not question; that could go either way. But if you do decide to end it, just end it; don't try to turn it into a Life Lesson For Her along the way. Your instinct that that "seems like a bad idea and a recipe for drama" is absolutely correct.
posted by ook at 9:51 AM on August 25, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by ook at 9:51 AM on August 25, 2013 [5 favorites]
This is a lot of words to ask permission to break up with someone. Just do it. Say, "I don't want to see you anymore. We are okay together, but I want something different."
You can't change or fix or help her after you've broken it off. Make a clean break and go.
posted by xingcat at 9:56 AM on August 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
You can't change or fix or help her after you've broken it off. Make a clean break and go.
posted by xingcat at 9:56 AM on August 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
Don't stay with someone in the hope that they could be different, maybe. That other person does not actually exist. They may well never exist. If the point ever comes where that person does miraculously appear, then revisit having a relationship with that person.
People can change. That's theoretically true. It's also theoretically true that people can become astronauts or brain surgeons - both things require an awful lot of hard work on the part of the individual and most people can't be bothered. You wouldn't let someone who wasn't Actually A Brain Surgeon operate on your brain. Don't be in a relationship with someone who isn't Actually Someone You Want To Be In A Relationship With.
Love, respect, all that good stuff? Not enough. Nowhere near enough. Does the other person love and respect you? If they don't, only your half of the relationship is working.
posted by Solomon at 9:58 AM on August 25, 2013 [8 favorites]
People can change. That's theoretically true. It's also theoretically true that people can become astronauts or brain surgeons - both things require an awful lot of hard work on the part of the individual and most people can't be bothered. You wouldn't let someone who wasn't Actually A Brain Surgeon operate on your brain. Don't be in a relationship with someone who isn't Actually Someone You Want To Be In A Relationship With.
Love, respect, all that good stuff? Not enough. Nowhere near enough. Does the other person love and respect you? If they don't, only your half of the relationship is working.
posted by Solomon at 9:58 AM on August 25, 2013 [8 favorites]
I think that yes, you should break up with her, and that you should tell her honestly and as tactfully as you can why the relationship wasn't working for you, but don't go further than that.
Don't analyze her and give her instructions as to what to do to fix herself and/or make her next relationship better. That'll just come across as condescending and out of line, and it will be unproductive. You're probably not a trained counsellor or social worker or psychologist, and even if you were she's not your patient and you couldn't be objective enough anyway.
posted by orange swan at 10:11 AM on August 25, 2013
Don't analyze her and give her instructions as to what to do to fix herself and/or make her next relationship better. That'll just come across as condescending and out of line, and it will be unproductive. You're probably not a trained counsellor or social worker or psychologist, and even if you were she's not your patient and you couldn't be objective enough anyway.
posted by orange swan at 10:11 AM on August 25, 2013
As briefly as possible: everyone is responsible for themselves. If you don't want to be with her as she is, now, then break up with her and let her find someone who does, and find someone you want to be with as they are right now. There is no way to 'encourage' someone to find happiness in situations like this, though we all - myself included - wishes there were. There is only a clear honoring and articulation of your needs, a willingness to listen to hers, along with a willingness to consider the other person's needs and see if you are interested in meeting them, and hopefully a respectful breakup if you aren't, and a wonderful relationship if you are.
You're trying for something else: a heartfelt but misguided desire and sense that you going to therapy with her will change her (into someone more healthy) and perhaps save your relationship. But really, if she was that into it, she'd be going to therapy without you. Everybody comes into this world with baggage, and everyone has to decide individually if they want to unpack it, and live with the consequences of not doing so (in some cases, not being emotionally ready for a great relationship ).
So love her no matter what, but decide if you want to be with her knowing what you do now about who she is, how she behave,s and what she wants. Do you want to be a part of the life she is offering you now? If not, consider doing what I think is hard, but probably healthiest - let each other go.
And you do it as number 2-ish: you sit her down, tell her you care for her, but want something different, but you will always appreciate the time you had together. No suggesting what her issues are or that she see a professional. This is about you, wanting something different, and even if you aren't entirely sure what that is, your gut feeling is that this isn't it. That's enough. Then start figuring out the practicalities of how to separate your lives, and let her be as upset as she needs to be, without somehow feeling that you can explain/make it better. She's entitled to her own feelings.
posted by anitanita at 10:13 AM on August 25, 2013 [6 favorites]
You're trying for something else: a heartfelt but misguided desire and sense that you going to therapy with her will change her (into someone more healthy) and perhaps save your relationship. But really, if she was that into it, she'd be going to therapy without you. Everybody comes into this world with baggage, and everyone has to decide individually if they want to unpack it, and live with the consequences of not doing so (in some cases, not being emotionally ready for a great relationship ).
So love her no matter what, but decide if you want to be with her knowing what you do now about who she is, how she behave,s and what she wants. Do you want to be a part of the life she is offering you now? If not, consider doing what I think is hard, but probably healthiest - let each other go.
And you do it as number 2-ish: you sit her down, tell her you care for her, but want something different, but you will always appreciate the time you had together. No suggesting what her issues are or that she see a professional. This is about you, wanting something different, and even if you aren't entirely sure what that is, your gut feeling is that this isn't it. That's enough. Then start figuring out the practicalities of how to separate your lives, and let her be as upset as she needs to be, without somehow feeling that you can explain/make it better. She's entitled to her own feelings.
posted by anitanita at 10:13 AM on August 25, 2013 [6 favorites]
The universe is telling you something about this relationship. Move on and seek someone else. If she is going to change, she needs to do it for herself and only herself, not for you.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 10:27 AM on August 25, 2013
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 10:27 AM on August 25, 2013
If you feel that it's time to move on, you should move on. At that point, her issues become hers to deal with, and you should let her be the one to deal with them or not as she chooses, without interference.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:51 AM on August 25, 2013
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:51 AM on August 25, 2013
Don't stay with someone to fix them. Don't leave someone to fix them. If you want to stay with them, offer them help if they are working to fix themselves. If you don't, just try not to do anything that seriously fucks with their ability to do so. But if you're not staying, it is not a thing you are doing to help her, it is a thing you are doing to help you; be honest about that.
posted by Sequence at 10:53 AM on August 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Sequence at 10:53 AM on August 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
This is one of those AskMes where I realize a lot of folks here live in a much more hard-ass, cold universe than I do.
If I read this correctly, you guys have been together for a little over three years. She has built up a solid relationship with your kiddo. Maybe you think you shouldn't have gotten entwined but you have. In this situation, I'd really go for number one. She deserves to know the truth, in a supportive environment, and you could probably learn some useful relationship skills too (because if you are breaking up with someone for things that are 'mostly their fault,' you probably have some personal-dynamic blind spots, too).
Making changes in less-than-useful personal patterns is not, contrary to some assumptions, always something that people do all once, that they decide they are "ready" for and go charging into with the dedication, sacrifice, and focus of an Olympic athlete. Sometimes it is something someone finds their way into because it is woven into something else important. Sometimes it is something someone finds their way into after they break up with someone who tells them the truth. I am not saying change is guaranteed to follow on from anything you do, but if you just disappear, you are pretty much guaranteed to hurt her very badly while at the same time foreclosing the option of her understanding what effects her choices are having in real life. That doesn't seem like the way I would be proud of treating someone with whom I had a long-term relationship.
posted by dame at 11:38 AM on August 25, 2013 [13 favorites]
If I read this correctly, you guys have been together for a little over three years. She has built up a solid relationship with your kiddo. Maybe you think you shouldn't have gotten entwined but you have. In this situation, I'd really go for number one. She deserves to know the truth, in a supportive environment, and you could probably learn some useful relationship skills too (because if you are breaking up with someone for things that are 'mostly their fault,' you probably have some personal-dynamic blind spots, too).
Making changes in less-than-useful personal patterns is not, contrary to some assumptions, always something that people do all once, that they decide they are "ready" for and go charging into with the dedication, sacrifice, and focus of an Olympic athlete. Sometimes it is something someone finds their way into because it is woven into something else important. Sometimes it is something someone finds their way into after they break up with someone who tells them the truth. I am not saying change is guaranteed to follow on from anything you do, but if you just disappear, you are pretty much guaranteed to hurt her very badly while at the same time foreclosing the option of her understanding what effects her choices are having in real life. That doesn't seem like the way I would be proud of treating someone with whom I had a long-term relationship.
posted by dame at 11:38 AM on August 25, 2013 [13 favorites]
You can't predict what your girlfriend would be like if she got better.
Before I got the proper help for depression, my husband and I both thought we knew what "getting better" would mean. But it turned out to be very different from that idea. I'm a lot more independent than I used to be. I now have a couple of interests that he doesn't share, so I'm not available to him as much as I was when I was very apathetic. I'm more assertive and honor my own needs and wishes, instead of deferring to his. All these changes took a lot of getting used to for both of us.
posted by wryly at 11:48 AM on August 25, 2013 [11 favorites]
Before I got the proper help for depression, my husband and I both thought we knew what "getting better" would mean. But it turned out to be very different from that idea. I'm a lot more independent than I used to be. I now have a couple of interests that he doesn't share, so I'm not available to him as much as I was when I was very apathetic. I'm more assertive and honor my own needs and wishes, instead of deferring to his. All these changes took a lot of getting used to for both of us.
posted by wryly at 11:48 AM on August 25, 2013 [11 favorites]
A year ago things sounded pretty rotten, but she has managed to turn a lot of it around. Not only that, you say many things are great or still great. I suspect she will be monumentally surprised and hurt. You will be the bad guy. Perhaps you have more issues than you have let on here, to internet strangers. Perhaps because you are not aware of them.
And I don't really want to have a relationship that's limited to watching netflix on the couch because more challenging things might lead to problems
So what great dates or weekend plans have you made to add these other things you want to your life?
If you want break it off, just break it off. Don't try to teach her anything, or help her, or make any peep about what she "should" do. You have every right to do decide she's not the one for you. But you have no rights relating to her life, or her future, or anything else. Just be as kind about it as you can.
posted by Glinn at 11:48 AM on August 25, 2013 [6 favorites]
And I don't really want to have a relationship that's limited to watching netflix on the couch because more challenging things might lead to problems
So what great dates or weekend plans have you made to add these other things you want to your life?
If you want break it off, just break it off. Don't try to teach her anything, or help her, or make any peep about what she "should" do. You have every right to do decide she's not the one for you. But you have no rights relating to her life, or her future, or anything else. Just be as kind about it as you can.
posted by Glinn at 11:48 AM on August 25, 2013 [6 favorites]
After your question last year I would have thought that both your issues – her uncontrolled reactions, your ambivalence – would need professional intervention if the two of you were to stay together, especially since the two are intertwined, as this excellent comment and others point out. Somehow, the drama and melodrama-ridden fights appear to be sorted now (and, if I may say so, kudos for that, to both of you, that wasn't an easy one), but the other issue… well, when one party in a relationship is as ambivalent about being in the relationship as you are, this can lead to great, possibly unacknowledged, tensions, which could lead to the lack of intimacy you deplore, the feeling of boredom and doom all in one (I can imagine few things more unpleasant and simultaneously boring than to sit watching TV with someone, all tense, in an elephant-in-the-room situation).
You seem in a catch-22. The fact that you are ambivalent may well give rise to tensions, and the tensions keep you ambivalent. There are a few things about your own input into this situation which are a bit red-flaggy to me, such as your protracted ambivalence, your avoidant behaviour in dealing with it, your lack of communication about it (this one I kind of assume), and the fact that you seem more concerned with who is to be blamed (and most earnestly - quite a few of your words are used, albeit quite lovingly, to explain why SHE is to be blamed) than with clearing the air. So I think you could benefit from some therapy/ counseling yourself, whether or not you remain in this relationship.
posted by miorita at 12:10 PM on August 25, 2013 [12 favorites]
You seem in a catch-22. The fact that you are ambivalent may well give rise to tensions, and the tensions keep you ambivalent. There are a few things about your own input into this situation which are a bit red-flaggy to me, such as your protracted ambivalence, your avoidant behaviour in dealing with it, your lack of communication about it (this one I kind of assume), and the fact that you seem more concerned with who is to be blamed (and most earnestly - quite a few of your words are used, albeit quite lovingly, to explain why SHE is to be blamed) than with clearing the air. So I think you could benefit from some therapy/ counseling yourself, whether or not you remain in this relationship.
posted by miorita at 12:10 PM on August 25, 2013 [12 favorites]
1 and 2 are the only valid options.
PLEASE skip the whole "i don't want to deal with this shit anymore, but i want to help you so some other poor sap doesn't have to in the future/you have an easier more fulfilling life" routine.
All i can think after watching several close friends go through long time(up to double the length of your relationship) tumultuous drama relationships like this is how they always come out going "God, why did i sink so much of my life in to that situation."(if they don't just sink themselves back in, ugh)
Both parties need to go in to a relationship being ready to have one. Getting in to a relationship with someone who isn't ready is always a bad plan, it's like buying a broken used car for cheap and sinking a ton of money in to fixing it.(or holding on to one you didn't know the issues about at first and doing that because hey, you already got it and it's easier than looking for another one... right? right?).
This isn't something you fix after the fact. It's one thing if you two had interpersonal issues you both mutually agreed to work on or something, but she brought a whole ton of issues to the table and now... you're feeling obligated to work with that?
I've dated several people with issues. Like, committed relationship style, not just casual dating. I always left going "Wow, people really need to address their shit rather than just trying to ignore it and fill some void in themselves with another person".
If you have to focus on the good things for justification of the, in my opinion, pretty serious sounding bad things... then something is seriously wrong. A good relationship shouldn't center around "but there's these few good things, i want to hold on because of that in hopes that the shitty things might go away" unless the shitty things are essentially guaranteed to be temporary, like a living arrangement or school/work commitment that has a set end time.
So obviously i'm an advocate of #2 here, but that's because i think #1 is a path to sinking even more of your life in to this when these are serious problems that take a very long time to work through.
posted by emptythought at 12:12 PM on August 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
PLEASE skip the whole "i don't want to deal with this shit anymore, but i want to help you so some other poor sap doesn't have to in the future/you have an easier more fulfilling life" routine.
All i can think after watching several close friends go through long time(up to double the length of your relationship) tumultuous drama relationships like this is how they always come out going "God, why did i sink so much of my life in to that situation."(if they don't just sink themselves back in, ugh)
Both parties need to go in to a relationship being ready to have one. Getting in to a relationship with someone who isn't ready is always a bad plan, it's like buying a broken used car for cheap and sinking a ton of money in to fixing it.(or holding on to one you didn't know the issues about at first and doing that because hey, you already got it and it's easier than looking for another one... right? right?).
This isn't something you fix after the fact. It's one thing if you two had interpersonal issues you both mutually agreed to work on or something, but she brought a whole ton of issues to the table and now... you're feeling obligated to work with that?
I've dated several people with issues. Like, committed relationship style, not just casual dating. I always left going "Wow, people really need to address their shit rather than just trying to ignore it and fill some void in themselves with another person".
If you have to focus on the good things for justification of the, in my opinion, pretty serious sounding bad things... then something is seriously wrong. A good relationship shouldn't center around "but there's these few good things, i want to hold on because of that in hopes that the shitty things might go away" unless the shitty things are essentially guaranteed to be temporary, like a living arrangement or school/work commitment that has a set end time.
So obviously i'm an advocate of #2 here, but that's because i think #1 is a path to sinking even more of your life in to this when these are serious problems that take a very long time to work through.
posted by emptythought at 12:12 PM on August 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't want to, I think we have lots of good things that are worth keeping, but I don't think we'll ever develop intimacy and trust because of the things that happened when we were first getting together. And I still have some, although much less, ambivalence about settling down with a life partner. And I don't really want to have a relationship that's limited to watching netflix on the couch because more challenging things might lead to problems.
This is exactly what 1 is for.
posted by heyjude at 2:04 PM on August 25, 2013
This is exactly what 1 is for.
posted by heyjude at 2:04 PM on August 25, 2013
As i'm wont to do, i let this one marinate some more and another pie popped out of the brainoven. Responding to the same pull quote heyjude did actually.
I don't want to, I think we have lots of good things that are worth keeping, but I don't think we'll ever develop intimacy and trust because of the things that happened when we were first getting together. And I still have some, although much less, ambivalence about settling down with a life partner. And I don't really want to have a relationship that's limited to watching netflix on the couch because more challenging things might lead to problems.
Think about it this way, if you're trying to work through this you're going directly against your gut telling you that this isn't someone you can truly trust. If you go through all that and the same type of thing happens again(which i mean think about it, it's only been 3 years and you've already gone through a lot of TERRIBLE stuff, how likely is it really that it's 100% over?) how much more will it hurt? how much will it suck to be going "fuck, i was right, why did i sit through this and try and work it out?"
People do not change overnight, and i've never seen a "climb in the window and yank the keys out of the car in the middle of a fight" type of person change... ever. Whether they were 20 or 50.
I really think people would be giving you "Get out while you can sister!" advice, because the stuff you described in the previous post is properly abusive. The attitude people have, are taught by parents and peers, and internalize about abuse are just very different depending on what gender the victim is. Everything you described in a previous post is scary, and this stuff tends to lay dormant for a while then pop back up. And it pretty much always gets worse, not better.
There was a very good comment in the previous thread that stated "Is this really the relationship you want your kids to witness?". Because it sounds like you started out with something broken on a pretty fundamental level, but are super committed to fixing it in to something workable that will probably never be 100% because of what's occurred in the past.
There's a lot of scar tissue already formed here that will likely always be in the back of your mind. And definitely come to the front of your mind no matter how long it's been any time you have even a minor, normal conflict. I can't help but think you'll always be tiptoeing around those memories whenever even something normal comes up as far as disagreements go.
The hesitance to do anything that isn't super low key and low stress/conflict plays in to this too. That's the kind of thing you hear from partners of abusive people. "I'll just take the path of least resistance and then there won't be any problems! if i just navigate my life around anything that has even a slim possibility of setting them off everything will be great!". This is not a way to live a healthy, full, and fulfilled life and i think you're starting to realize this.
You could spend years trying to extricate her, and you from this rut and probably falling back in more than a few times... or you could be living an actual life with someone else in six months, a year, or however long it takes to meet someone compatible.
So i'll pretty much say the guy version of what the women on here have said to other women who came forward several times to AskMe with questions about the same partner behaving in ways like this. You can do a lot better than this, brother.
and yea, also everything i said in my previous post and that others have said as well about not bothering with trying to make this a "teachable moment".
posted by emptythought at 3:01 PM on August 25, 2013 [5 favorites]
I don't want to, I think we have lots of good things that are worth keeping, but I don't think we'll ever develop intimacy and trust because of the things that happened when we were first getting together. And I still have some, although much less, ambivalence about settling down with a life partner. And I don't really want to have a relationship that's limited to watching netflix on the couch because more challenging things might lead to problems.
Think about it this way, if you're trying to work through this you're going directly against your gut telling you that this isn't someone you can truly trust. If you go through all that and the same type of thing happens again(which i mean think about it, it's only been 3 years and you've already gone through a lot of TERRIBLE stuff, how likely is it really that it's 100% over?) how much more will it hurt? how much will it suck to be going "fuck, i was right, why did i sit through this and try and work it out?"
People do not change overnight, and i've never seen a "climb in the window and yank the keys out of the car in the middle of a fight" type of person change... ever. Whether they were 20 or 50.
I really think people would be giving you "Get out while you can sister!" advice, because the stuff you described in the previous post is properly abusive. The attitude people have, are taught by parents and peers, and internalize about abuse are just very different depending on what gender the victim is. Everything you described in a previous post is scary, and this stuff tends to lay dormant for a while then pop back up. And it pretty much always gets worse, not better.
There was a very good comment in the previous thread that stated "Is this really the relationship you want your kids to witness?". Because it sounds like you started out with something broken on a pretty fundamental level, but are super committed to fixing it in to something workable that will probably never be 100% because of what's occurred in the past.
There's a lot of scar tissue already formed here that will likely always be in the back of your mind. And definitely come to the front of your mind no matter how long it's been any time you have even a minor, normal conflict. I can't help but think you'll always be tiptoeing around those memories whenever even something normal comes up as far as disagreements go.
The hesitance to do anything that isn't super low key and low stress/conflict plays in to this too. That's the kind of thing you hear from partners of abusive people. "I'll just take the path of least resistance and then there won't be any problems! if i just navigate my life around anything that has even a slim possibility of setting them off everything will be great!". This is not a way to live a healthy, full, and fulfilled life and i think you're starting to realize this.
You could spend years trying to extricate her, and you from this rut and probably falling back in more than a few times... or you could be living an actual life with someone else in six months, a year, or however long it takes to meet someone compatible.
So i'll pretty much say the guy version of what the women on here have said to other women who came forward several times to AskMe with questions about the same partner behaving in ways like this. You can do a lot better than this, brother.
and yea, also everything i said in my previous post and that others have said as well about not bothering with trying to make this a "teachable moment".
posted by emptythought at 3:01 PM on August 25, 2013 [5 favorites]
I am going to challenge you on your claim that you respect and love this woman.
I should have bailed a long time ago before our lives got this entangled, but my life situation back then blinded me to some things.
This is neither respectful nor loving. This is called settling. I'm having a rather visceral reaction to your post because I believe I was your girlfriend in my previous relationship, with a man who was ambivalent about me from the beginning yet we stayed together anyhow. But poof, three years later it turns out he's not ready to settle down, and all through our relationship I was haunted by the nagging feeling that I was more into it than he was, which often lead me to feel paranoid and jealous. You know what? I was right.
I say this because even if she is not privy to your deepest, darkest thoughts about her, on some level she will sense that you are half-assing this relationship. How can you say you love and respect her when by your own account, you're only in this relationship because you didn't think to end it sooner?
You also take next to no responsibility for the issues in this relationship; most of the blame falls on her and her unsavory upbringing. That says something about your character too, you know; you're not doing her a favor by dating her, especially since you know she wants a life partner and you do not.
She does not need you to save her. You are not the hero here. I am sorry to be so blunt, but looking back on my own relationship I can see so many parallels and you know what happens when you settle? No one gets what they want.
posted by thank you silence at 3:24 PM on August 25, 2013 [19 favorites]
I should have bailed a long time ago before our lives got this entangled, but my life situation back then blinded me to some things.
This is neither respectful nor loving. This is called settling. I'm having a rather visceral reaction to your post because I believe I was your girlfriend in my previous relationship, with a man who was ambivalent about me from the beginning yet we stayed together anyhow. But poof, three years later it turns out he's not ready to settle down, and all through our relationship I was haunted by the nagging feeling that I was more into it than he was, which often lead me to feel paranoid and jealous. You know what? I was right.
I say this because even if she is not privy to your deepest, darkest thoughts about her, on some level she will sense that you are half-assing this relationship. How can you say you love and respect her when by your own account, you're only in this relationship because you didn't think to end it sooner?
You also take next to no responsibility for the issues in this relationship; most of the blame falls on her and her unsavory upbringing. That says something about your character too, you know; you're not doing her a favor by dating her, especially since you know she wants a life partner and you do not.
She does not need you to save her. You are not the hero here. I am sorry to be so blunt, but looking back on my own relationship I can see so many parallels and you know what happens when you settle? No one gets what they want.
posted by thank you silence at 3:24 PM on August 25, 2013 [19 favorites]
There's another way. Be yourself. have the relationship you want. She will either stay, go, or make it impossible for you to stay. Plan fun stuff to do. Include her if she wants to be included. I'm making plans to go to the Outdoor Sporting Meetup Weds. Want to meet me there after work? and That kayaking trip sounds fun; I'm going to go. Want to join me? I want to take Kiddo to New York City for Thanksgiving, walk around, see a show, etc. Can you come with us? There's some good jazz at Club Whatsis Tuesday; why don't you come with me? If she gets jealous, walk away from the fight. If she acts inappropriately, call the police.
She has maneuvered you into behaving in ways that help her feel sort of safe. You can't manage her feelings or take responsibility for her. She has to do that for herself, and it's best all around when both people are open and honest about what they need and want and what they have to give.
My marriage ended when it did because I stopped fighting. Literally walked away from fights. I started making plans, having more fun, and I mostly stopped taking care of my ex- in ways that were not equal or fair. After 3 - 4 months, he left. It's because I stopped maintaining the unhealthy system.
Her assistance with your parenting is a real gift. But there are classes, and she may well agree to coach you on parenting even if you aren't together.
posted by theora55 at 5:29 PM on August 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
She has maneuvered you into behaving in ways that help her feel sort of safe. You can't manage her feelings or take responsibility for her. She has to do that for herself, and it's best all around when both people are open and honest about what they need and want and what they have to give.
My marriage ended when it did because I stopped fighting. Literally walked away from fights. I started making plans, having more fun, and I mostly stopped taking care of my ex- in ways that were not equal or fair. After 3 - 4 months, he left. It's because I stopped maintaining the unhealthy system.
Her assistance with your parenting is a real gift. But there are classes, and she may well agree to coach you on parenting even if you aren't together.
posted by theora55 at 5:29 PM on August 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
I forget how old she is, or if she wants children of her own, but please do break-up without the exit interview commentary. Thank you.
I can't believe you have wasted yet another year of this woman's life.
You're even more condescending towards her now than you were a year ago. A year ago your ambivalence and confusion was maybe understandable. Now? No way.
- She's great with your child, better than you, and you've leaned on those skills.
- She's tops in the field you share, which means you've borrowed her cachet to boost your own career by association with her.
- She had a tough upbringing, but now has excellent interpersonal skills, which speaks to a MONUMENTAL amount of self-work on her part.
- You pushed every raw emotional wound she had left un-worked by enjoying great sex with her AND leaning on her for co-parenting duties WITHOUT committing to her truly for over 3 years....
Wow. Just, wow.
I forget if you said how old she is, or if she wants children of her own, but please do break-up without the exit interview commentary.
Thank you.
posted by jbenben at 8:24 PM on August 25, 2013 [20 favorites]
I can't believe you have wasted yet another year of this woman's life.
You're even more condescending towards her now than you were a year ago. A year ago your ambivalence and confusion was maybe understandable. Now? No way.
- She's great with your child, better than you, and you've leaned on those skills.
- She's tops in the field you share, which means you've borrowed her cachet to boost your own career by association with her.
- She had a tough upbringing, but now has excellent interpersonal skills, which speaks to a MONUMENTAL amount of self-work on her part.
- You pushed every raw emotional wound she had left un-worked by enjoying great sex with her AND leaning on her for co-parenting duties WITHOUT committing to her truly for over 3 years....
Wow. Just, wow.
I forget if you said how old she is, or if she wants children of her own, but please do break-up without the exit interview commentary.
Thank you.
posted by jbenben at 8:24 PM on August 25, 2013 [20 favorites]
If you could do what theora55 suggests that would be great, but YOU would have to as much self-work as your girlfriend has done.
That means taking inventory of your attitudes, emotions, and choices every day. It means keeping your side of the street clean by not thinking you're right - ever - but taking responsibility for your part in things...
Are you up for this?
Otherwise, yes, break up without the condescending exit interview.
If your girlfriend is as accomplished as you say, I PROMISE she will continue her self-work into her next relationship no matter what.
You really don't know her that well. Most people don't recover like she has. In a different type of relationship, she'll be happier.
Let her go if you can't do the self-work to meet her where she is at today.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 8:38 PM on August 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
That means taking inventory of your attitudes, emotions, and choices every day. It means keeping your side of the street clean by not thinking you're right - ever - but taking responsibility for your part in things...
Are you up for this?
Otherwise, yes, break up without the condescending exit interview.
If your girlfriend is as accomplished as you say, I PROMISE she will continue her self-work into her next relationship no matter what.
You really don't know her that well. Most people don't recover like she has. In a different type of relationship, she'll be happier.
Let her go if you can't do the self-work to meet her where she is at today.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 8:38 PM on August 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
To hammer home my point about people's reactions depending on gender, look at the responses to this thread about a partner of a similar age behaving in a similar flip-out out of nowhere fashion during a fight.
Seriously, click through it. This is the kind of stuff people would be telling you.
posted by emptythought at 10:54 AM on August 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Seriously, click through it. This is the kind of stuff people would be telling you.
posted by emptythought at 10:54 AM on August 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm with jbenben.
You say you want to "encourage her to get better" but then you say there are "No more big screaming dangerous fights." Well, thats a huge improvement, no? And you still want to break-up with her? No offense but thats pretty dick of you. Sounds like she's done a lot to get better and you are still punishing her for past behavior.
"Or should I even break up with her, given the potential good things that might come along if she did process through some of this stuff?
The bigger problem here is your ambivalence about settling down despite the strides she has made.
You don't love her, you're using her, and she deserves better. Tell her you are breaking up with her because you don't want a life partner and you don't want her to miss out in finding one for herself. What's the point in making her feel like crap about her 'issues', if thats not even really the problem?
posted by hellameangirl at 2:25 PM on August 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
You say you want to "encourage her to get better" but then you say there are "No more big screaming dangerous fights." Well, thats a huge improvement, no? And you still want to break-up with her? No offense but thats pretty dick of you. Sounds like she's done a lot to get better and you are still punishing her for past behavior.
"Or should I even break up with her, given the potential good things that might come along if she did process through some of this stuff?
The bigger problem here is your ambivalence about settling down despite the strides she has made.
You don't love her, you're using her, and she deserves better. Tell her you are breaking up with her because you don't want a life partner and you don't want her to miss out in finding one for herself. What's the point in making her feel like crap about her 'issues', if thats not even really the problem?
posted by hellameangirl at 2:25 PM on August 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
No offense, but all relationships have the potential "of getting really bad all of the sudden". Such is the nature of life and using that as an excuse to avoid commitment makes it just that---a (bad) excuse.
I read your previous post and honestly, I don't see someone asking for advice on how to 'fix' anything with his relationship; I see someone asking how to break up with a person and not be the bad guy. Sadly, there's not really any way you can end the relationship and NOT appear the bad guy here. You've strung this woman along for years--your mind is made up that you don't want a long-term partnership with her.
So... man up and let her go. Have a talk with her. Be honest about your lack of desire for a long-term partnership. She won't like it. She'll be upset. But at least she can be free to find someone else.
Annnd....I wouldn't suggest trying to place the blame/fault on her. Chances are if you start lecturing her about things she needs to 'fix', she'll have quite a list of things she thinks you need to 'fix'.
posted by stubbehtail at 6:10 PM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I read your previous post and honestly, I don't see someone asking for advice on how to 'fix' anything with his relationship; I see someone asking how to break up with a person and not be the bad guy. Sadly, there's not really any way you can end the relationship and NOT appear the bad guy here. You've strung this woman along for years--your mind is made up that you don't want a long-term partnership with her.
So... man up and let her go. Have a talk with her. Be honest about your lack of desire for a long-term partnership. She won't like it. She'll be upset. But at least she can be free to find someone else.
Annnd....I wouldn't suggest trying to place the blame/fault on her. Chances are if you start lecturing her about things she needs to 'fix', she'll have quite a list of things she thinks you need to 'fix'.
posted by stubbehtail at 6:10 PM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
And if you do break up with her, it's not your job to make sure that she learn a greater lesson through a breakup. Not only is that cruel and tad preachy, it's unlikely to be effective.
posted by frizz at 9:23 AM on August 25, 2013 [7 favorites]