Even hermit crabs need to sacrifice their shells for potential profit
August 22, 2011 12:56 AM Subscribe
How does a long-time recluse reintegrate into society? Need advice on how to spark an inner desire to socialize, and how to transform my mindset into one that makes socializing enjoyable.
Background (optional reading that preemptively answers some questions that might arise):
I've been a social recluse since the age of 10. Since that single sentence fails to express just how atypical my life has been until now (14 years later), let me elaborate.
My social interactions between the ages of 10 and 22 were limited to perfunctory niceties with whomever I had to interact. I never had an impetus to befriend anyone, and I was ostracized by everyone in my classes. It's more likely that this was a positive feedback loop rather than a simple causal relationship. I spoke so little during these years that my speech skills atrophied. Pronouncing simple words became an exercise in frustration, and this turned into a full-fledged speech impediment that snuffed out any embers of a desire to socialize that might have existed.
Since I didn't have any friends, I turned into a social retard. I couldn't comprehend why groups of kids my age would get together just to talk about mundane things unrelated to any of their goals or obligations, let alone waste their time hanging out at malls. I still don't understand how people find enjoyment in just "shooting the shit" over a couple of beers. For me the beer is the only part of such an experience that makes any sense.
In university, I went to my lectures, headed to quiet places to study, then headed back home at 6:30 PM or so. No parties, no socializing, and no experiences one typically thinks characterize college life.
The Crux of the Issue:
So I find myself in the situation of an adult who was raised by wolves. I've learned how to express insincere "how are you?"s (never really understood why people say that, when both parties are aware of the intrinsic insincerity) and feign interest in the interests of others just to keep conversations going. You're probably thinking to yourself "why does this guy even bother with such things if he thinks he's above them?". Here's why.
I've come to realize the utility of social connections. I've realized just how difficult it is to find employment and advance one's career without contacts. I've seen the CEO of the company I work for get his foot in barred doors thanks to his wide range of contacts. I see that a 23-year-old guy in my office has lived a far more interesting life with more varied experiences than I will ever live - once again, in no small part due to his social network.
My current job is in jeopardy because of my inability to interact like a normal human being rather than an autistic nerd. It's not that I don't care about joking around with others or engaging in idle banter. I just don't know how to. I'm not nearly as witty as they are and my mind draws a blank when pressed to talk about anything other than work. When someone tells me how much they like tiramisu, all I can think of is, "this person likes tiramisu. This person just told me that they like tiramisu. This person likes a specific kind of cake called tiramisu." So it is with other things, too. I'm overly literal, which is why I'm usually at a loss for responses to facts ("OMG, I had the most amazing cappuccino at $COFFEE_SHOP! [Me: 'She had the most amazing cappuccino at $COFFEE_SHOP']") Nobody wants to employ a social zero, no matter how much of an übermensch he may (think himself to) be.
I have read How to Win Friends and Influence People. I have spoken with a psychologist about this, to no avail. Her primary advice was to converse with people about common interests. Makes perfect sense, but two issues get in the way of implementing it. Firstly, my interests are confined to relatively obscure things like math, physics, computer science, programming, etc. Yes, I have visited meetup groups based on these subjects. Nothing came of that. Just boring chatter with other socially challenged dorks. I'm currently trying to read as much as possible about things unrelated to work (or any of the aforementioned topics), but it's like trying to build a skyscraper within a month by working just 1 hour a day.
Secondly - and more significantly - I don't have an internal drive to socialize and connect with people. Quite the contrary, especially in conversations with office-mates when I think to myself, "what the fuck am I doing here? If only that window were open so I could jump out of it. This torturous experience is turning my mind to mush." That feeling can best be described as a mixture of annoyance and frustration. So even economic utility isn't incentive enough to spark an internal desire to socialize. I'm awed by what people are able to accomplish by making full use of their social networks, but that doesn't make things any easier when it's time to "chill with the buddies" (more like one buddy who has been inhumanly patient with my idiosyncrasies).
How do I gain such a desire? It obviously requires a complete reorientation of mindset. How do I go about effecting such a transformation? How do I become wittier and more fluid in conversation? Should I "gamify" my social interactions? What are some prerequisites to integrating into society?
NB: Yes, I have a long history of depression, which I think still ails me. No, pills haven't worked. I've tried citalopram and fluoxetine. No, exercise hasn't worked. I strength-train like an inmate at federal PMITA prison.
Throwaway email account: ambivalent dot robot at (mail service run by a very famous internet advertising company whose name starts with a 'G')
Background (optional reading that preemptively answers some questions that might arise):
I've been a social recluse since the age of 10. Since that single sentence fails to express just how atypical my life has been until now (14 years later), let me elaborate.
My social interactions between the ages of 10 and 22 were limited to perfunctory niceties with whomever I had to interact. I never had an impetus to befriend anyone, and I was ostracized by everyone in my classes. It's more likely that this was a positive feedback loop rather than a simple causal relationship. I spoke so little during these years that my speech skills atrophied. Pronouncing simple words became an exercise in frustration, and this turned into a full-fledged speech impediment that snuffed out any embers of a desire to socialize that might have existed.
Since I didn't have any friends, I turned into a social retard. I couldn't comprehend why groups of kids my age would get together just to talk about mundane things unrelated to any of their goals or obligations, let alone waste their time hanging out at malls. I still don't understand how people find enjoyment in just "shooting the shit" over a couple of beers. For me the beer is the only part of such an experience that makes any sense.
In university, I went to my lectures, headed to quiet places to study, then headed back home at 6:30 PM or so. No parties, no socializing, and no experiences one typically thinks characterize college life.
The Crux of the Issue:
So I find myself in the situation of an adult who was raised by wolves. I've learned how to express insincere "how are you?"s (never really understood why people say that, when both parties are aware of the intrinsic insincerity) and feign interest in the interests of others just to keep conversations going. You're probably thinking to yourself "why does this guy even bother with such things if he thinks he's above them?". Here's why.
I've come to realize the utility of social connections. I've realized just how difficult it is to find employment and advance one's career without contacts. I've seen the CEO of the company I work for get his foot in barred doors thanks to his wide range of contacts. I see that a 23-year-old guy in my office has lived a far more interesting life with more varied experiences than I will ever live - once again, in no small part due to his social network.
My current job is in jeopardy because of my inability to interact like a normal human being rather than an autistic nerd. It's not that I don't care about joking around with others or engaging in idle banter. I just don't know how to. I'm not nearly as witty as they are and my mind draws a blank when pressed to talk about anything other than work. When someone tells me how much they like tiramisu, all I can think of is, "this person likes tiramisu. This person just told me that they like tiramisu. This person likes a specific kind of cake called tiramisu." So it is with other things, too. I'm overly literal, which is why I'm usually at a loss for responses to facts ("OMG, I had the most amazing cappuccino at $COFFEE_SHOP! [Me: 'She had the most amazing cappuccino at $COFFEE_SHOP']") Nobody wants to employ a social zero, no matter how much of an übermensch he may (think himself to) be.
I have read How to Win Friends and Influence People. I have spoken with a psychologist about this, to no avail. Her primary advice was to converse with people about common interests. Makes perfect sense, but two issues get in the way of implementing it. Firstly, my interests are confined to relatively obscure things like math, physics, computer science, programming, etc. Yes, I have visited meetup groups based on these subjects. Nothing came of that. Just boring chatter with other socially challenged dorks. I'm currently trying to read as much as possible about things unrelated to work (or any of the aforementioned topics), but it's like trying to build a skyscraper within a month by working just 1 hour a day.
Secondly - and more significantly - I don't have an internal drive to socialize and connect with people. Quite the contrary, especially in conversations with office-mates when I think to myself, "what the fuck am I doing here? If only that window were open so I could jump out of it. This torturous experience is turning my mind to mush." That feeling can best be described as a mixture of annoyance and frustration. So even economic utility isn't incentive enough to spark an internal desire to socialize. I'm awed by what people are able to accomplish by making full use of their social networks, but that doesn't make things any easier when it's time to "chill with the buddies" (more like one buddy who has been inhumanly patient with my idiosyncrasies).
How do I gain such a desire? It obviously requires a complete reorientation of mindset. How do I go about effecting such a transformation? How do I become wittier and more fluid in conversation? Should I "gamify" my social interactions? What are some prerequisites to integrating into society?
NB: Yes, I have a long history of depression, which I think still ails me. No, pills haven't worked. I've tried citalopram and fluoxetine. No, exercise hasn't worked. I strength-train like an inmate at federal PMITA prison.
Throwaway email account: ambivalent dot robot at (mail service run by a very famous internet advertising company whose name starts with a 'G')
There's a lot here. I'll just focus one detail.
I still don't understand how people find enjoyment in just "shooting the shit" over a couple of beers. For me the beer is the only part of such an experience that makes any sense.
I was headed your way in my late teens, early twenties. I went straight from high school to university, completed two years and suddenly that was enough. I turned hard left from the straight-and-narrow I'd been traveling my whole hyper-organized life, with no plan, no destination in mind. Long-story-short: I found it increasingly easy to shrug everyone and everything off, disappear into the recesses of my old room (still living at my parents) ...
Until I needed money. Suddenly I had to get a job. And the quickest, easiest job going at the time was driving cab. Which meant I had to relate/connect/communicate with a crazy variety of random humans whether I wanted to or not: rich guys on their way to the airport, drunken longshoremen, old ladies who took as long to count out their fare (in small change) as it took to drive them home from the local grocery store.
Bottom line: I "learned" how to reconnect by professional necessity, not just in terms of having something to say to total strangers, but also how to discern (via body language etc) whether they wanted to talk to me at all.
So yeah, if you're serious about all of this (and it certainly sounds like you are), I'd make it a priority to organize my life in such a way that I had to connect with people, by professional (or other) necessity. And then, once you've made that commitment, the next step is not to force it, or worry it all through, but just to listen to people. I mean, if I learned indelible anything from my years driving cab, it's how to listen. Do it right and nobody's uninteresting.
Good luck.
posted by philip-random at 1:32 AM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
I still don't understand how people find enjoyment in just "shooting the shit" over a couple of beers. For me the beer is the only part of such an experience that makes any sense.
I was headed your way in my late teens, early twenties. I went straight from high school to university, completed two years and suddenly that was enough. I turned hard left from the straight-and-narrow I'd been traveling my whole hyper-organized life, with no plan, no destination in mind. Long-story-short: I found it increasingly easy to shrug everyone and everything off, disappear into the recesses of my old room (still living at my parents) ...
Until I needed money. Suddenly I had to get a job. And the quickest, easiest job going at the time was driving cab. Which meant I had to relate/connect/communicate with a crazy variety of random humans whether I wanted to or not: rich guys on their way to the airport, drunken longshoremen, old ladies who took as long to count out their fare (in small change) as it took to drive them home from the local grocery store.
Bottom line: I "learned" how to reconnect by professional necessity, not just in terms of having something to say to total strangers, but also how to discern (via body language etc) whether they wanted to talk to me at all.
So yeah, if you're serious about all of this (and it certainly sounds like you are), I'd make it a priority to organize my life in such a way that I had to connect with people, by professional (or other) necessity. And then, once you've made that commitment, the next step is not to force it, or worry it all through, but just to listen to people. I mean, if I learned indelible anything from my years driving cab, it's how to listen. Do it right and nobody's uninteresting.
Good luck.
posted by philip-random at 1:32 AM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
I've found that the best way to build connections with people is not mindless chit chat about weather and cappuccinos. It's working together towards some kind of shared goal.
I became close to two of my best friends because we ran a big event together. Now, years later, it's easy to "shoot the shit" because we are close, so I care about their lives and it becomes interesting to talk about the mundane things we did through the week.
Shared activities are great for making connections, but you need shared activities that attract the kind of people you'd like to be friends with. Do you have a gym buddy? Do you ever talk to gym people about, I don't know, the relative merits of different grips when deadlifting? Would you ever consider getting into competitive powerlifting? That might provide some things to talk about that are more interesting and relevant than the weather.
At work, how about engaging some of the higher ups on the subject of the direction of the company, or the market positioning or the logic behind some company moves that you don't understand? By "engaging" I mean asking open ended questions - and if you don't understand or don't agree with the answer, asking more open ended questions until it makes more sense. I don't mean starting an argument.
If you're working in an industry where you are completely uninterested in any of this, have you thought about moving to a job in an industry you care more about?
posted by emilyw at 1:33 AM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
I became close to two of my best friends because we ran a big event together. Now, years later, it's easy to "shoot the shit" because we are close, so I care about their lives and it becomes interesting to talk about the mundane things we did through the week.
Shared activities are great for making connections, but you need shared activities that attract the kind of people you'd like to be friends with. Do you have a gym buddy? Do you ever talk to gym people about, I don't know, the relative merits of different grips when deadlifting? Would you ever consider getting into competitive powerlifting? That might provide some things to talk about that are more interesting and relevant than the weather.
At work, how about engaging some of the higher ups on the subject of the direction of the company, or the market positioning or the logic behind some company moves that you don't understand? By "engaging" I mean asking open ended questions - and if you don't understand or don't agree with the answer, asking more open ended questions until it makes more sense. I don't mean starting an argument.
If you're working in an industry where you are completely uninterested in any of this, have you thought about moving to a job in an industry you care more about?
posted by emilyw at 1:33 AM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Have you read up on Introversion? And comparing Extroverts with Introverts? You may be one.
Suggestions:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/03/caring-for-your-introvert/2696/
http://kingdomofintroversion.com/table-of-contents/
From a viewpoint of an introvert, you do have several aspects (e.g. lack of internal drive to socialize and connect with people). To expand on this point, I do want to socialize and connect with people, but only people that I feel have similar interests and topics to speak with. Idle chitchat and social niceties just wear me out.
I couldn't comprehend why groups of kids my age would get together just to talk about mundane things unrelated to any of their goals or obligations, let alone waste their time hanging out at malls.
Smells like introversion to me.
Re: Work - hmmm need some time to mull about it.
posted by TrinsicWS at 1:53 AM on August 22, 2011
Suggestions:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/03/caring-for-your-introvert/2696/
http://kingdomofintroversion.com/table-of-contents/
From a viewpoint of an introvert, you do have several aspects (e.g. lack of internal drive to socialize and connect with people). To expand on this point, I do want to socialize and connect with people, but only people that I feel have similar interests and topics to speak with. Idle chitchat and social niceties just wear me out.
I couldn't comprehend why groups of kids my age would get together just to talk about mundane things unrelated to any of their goals or obligations, let alone waste their time hanging out at malls.
Smells like introversion to me.
Re: Work - hmmm need some time to mull about it.
posted by TrinsicWS at 1:53 AM on August 22, 2011
You can tell a story. You've got a good sense of humor. You told us about the minutiae of your social life an personal history in an engaging way. If I knew your name I'd likely remember it with a smile.
Your post shows that you've already got a lot of the skills you're looking for. It's not as though you're not witty, you just need to break through the barriers that are stopping you from being witty in person.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:16 AM on August 22, 2011 [14 favorites]
Your post shows that you've already got a lot of the skills you're looking for. It's not as though you're not witty, you just need to break through the barriers that are stopping you from being witty in person.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:16 AM on August 22, 2011 [14 favorites]
One thing jumped out at me:
a social retard
insincerity
feign interest
an autistic nerd
a social zero
Just boring chatter with other socially challenged dorks.
Yes, I have a long history of depression, which I think still ails me.
Yes. Depression can bring about and maintain a spiral of lack of interest, lack of energy, and, as you can see, thoughts that undermine any positive action you could take. I think finding a helpful therapist would be good, because it does seem this is depression and learned thinking habits talking.
If you wouldn't call anyone else a social retard, autistic nerd, or a socially challenged dork, you might first try being kinder to yourself. Being an introvert is nothing to be ashamed of, and you have a genuine desire to connect – so you see, your "insincerity" is not actually insincere. When you try to make a connection to others because you want to, then rote politeness is as sincere as anything else you could say to get an exchange going. It's only insincere when, for instance, you smile and say "how are you?" to someone whose guts you can't stand.
Therapy could help you reframe your thinking in many more ways.
posted by fraula at 2:46 AM on August 22, 2011 [8 favorites]
a social retard
insincerity
feign interest
an autistic nerd
a social zero
Just boring chatter with other socially challenged dorks.
Yes, I have a long history of depression, which I think still ails me.
Yes. Depression can bring about and maintain a spiral of lack of interest, lack of energy, and, as you can see, thoughts that undermine any positive action you could take. I think finding a helpful therapist would be good, because it does seem this is depression and learned thinking habits talking.
If you wouldn't call anyone else a social retard, autistic nerd, or a socially challenged dork, you might first try being kinder to yourself. Being an introvert is nothing to be ashamed of, and you have a genuine desire to connect – so you see, your "insincerity" is not actually insincere. When you try to make a connection to others because you want to, then rote politeness is as sincere as anything else you could say to get an exchange going. It's only insincere when, for instance, you smile and say "how are you?" to someone whose guts you can't stand.
Therapy could help you reframe your thinking in many more ways.
posted by fraula at 2:46 AM on August 22, 2011 [8 favorites]
Need advice on how to spark an inner desire to socialize, and how to transform my mindset into one that makes socializing enjoyable.
Forget about head shrinkers and their drugs, because you are way over-thinking this.
It's not that I don't care about joking around with others or engaging in idle banter. I just don't know how to.
If it's idle banter you want to master, find a bar you like and become a regular. Always sit at the bar. Drink enough to be happy and no more. Other regulars will come to recognize you and there is no easier environment to remove your shell and learn social skills.
The other people at the bar? They are there for the same reasons: to socialize, to engage in idle banter, and - in my case - to drink.
posted by three blind mice at 3:02 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Forget about head shrinkers and their drugs, because you are way over-thinking this.
It's not that I don't care about joking around with others or engaging in idle banter. I just don't know how to.
If it's idle banter you want to master, find a bar you like and become a regular. Always sit at the bar. Drink enough to be happy and no more. Other regulars will come to recognize you and there is no easier environment to remove your shell and learn social skills.
The other people at the bar? They are there for the same reasons: to socialize, to engage in idle banter, and - in my case - to drink.
posted by three blind mice at 3:02 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you live near water, get yourself a fishing pole, a fishing license (if you need one in your jurisdiction), some line and some lures. Go fishing, where you see other fisherman. It will be obvious to them that you have not the first clue what you are doing, and in about 15 minutes, some one of them will come over to help you learn to fish. Perhaps because they don't want to get your hook in their eye, when you try to cast. Perhaps because you're making such a mess of it, that their neatness gene kicks in. Perhaps because they feel sorry for any fish you might disturb. Perhaps because you've already scared away all the fish in the area, and there is nothing left to do, but help you not do that again, next time.
Take whatever instruction is offered, with patience and humility. Ask about what kind of fish are biting. Ask why. Ask if they know anybody with a boat, that likes to fish.
Keep fishing, at least weekly. Eventually, you'll have some non-arcane knowledge, some pleasant memories, perhaps a few fishing buddies, and a genuine hobby.
posted by paulsc at 3:55 AM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Take whatever instruction is offered, with patience and humility. Ask about what kind of fish are biting. Ask why. Ask if they know anybody with a boat, that likes to fish.
Keep fishing, at least weekly. Eventually, you'll have some non-arcane knowledge, some pleasant memories, perhaps a few fishing buddies, and a genuine hobby.
posted by paulsc at 3:55 AM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
"When someone tells me how much they like tiramisu, all I can think of is, "this person likes tiramisu. This person just told me that they like tiramisu. This person likes a specific kind of cake called tiramisu." So it is with other things, too. I'm overly literal, which is why I'm usually at a loss for responses to facts ("OMG, I had the most amazing cappuccino at $COFFEE_SHOP! [Me: 'She had the most amazing cappuccino at $COFFEE_SHOP']") Nobody wants to employ a social zero, no matter how much of an übermensch he may (think himself to) be."
Okay, here's a simple thing you can do in situations like this. Someone tells you, "I really like tiramasu."
You can ask, "What do you like about tiramasu?"
That person may wax rhapsodic about the soaked lady fingers, or the coffee flavor, or the whipped cream or whatever.
Then you can ask, "Where have you had the best tiramasu?"
The person may say in Italy or at a fine restaurant or strangely enough, from the local supermarket. Let's say they say in Italy.
You can ask, "When were you in Italy?"
Then they'll tell you all about their trip.
Conversation is generally much easier if you ask people about themselves. What that does is remove the pressure of being "witty" or even "interesting" and turns the conversation to peoples' favorite subject: themselves.
Eventually, they'll probably ask you about yourself, and you can respond with pretty simple facts. Such as, "Have you ever had tiramasu?"
To which you can say, "Yes, but I didn't like it," or "Yes, and I love it," or "No, but from the way you describe it, I sure should!"
It feels daunting at first, but conversation is pretty simple if you stop trying so hard.
posted by xingcat at 4:16 AM on August 22, 2011 [23 favorites]
Okay, here's a simple thing you can do in situations like this. Someone tells you, "I really like tiramasu."
You can ask, "What do you like about tiramasu?"
That person may wax rhapsodic about the soaked lady fingers, or the coffee flavor, or the whipped cream or whatever.
Then you can ask, "Where have you had the best tiramasu?"
The person may say in Italy or at a fine restaurant or strangely enough, from the local supermarket. Let's say they say in Italy.
You can ask, "When were you in Italy?"
Then they'll tell you all about their trip.
Conversation is generally much easier if you ask people about themselves. What that does is remove the pressure of being "witty" or even "interesting" and turns the conversation to peoples' favorite subject: themselves.
Eventually, they'll probably ask you about yourself, and you can respond with pretty simple facts. Such as, "Have you ever had tiramasu?"
To which you can say, "Yes, but I didn't like it," or "Yes, and I love it," or "No, but from the way you describe it, I sure should!"
It feels daunting at first, but conversation is pretty simple if you stop trying so hard.
posted by xingcat at 4:16 AM on August 22, 2011 [23 favorites]
No, exercise hasn't worked. I strength-train like an inmate at federal PMITA prison.
You are funny. I mean the ha-ha kind. So work off that.
Although some persons have social deficits of a physical nature, I think you are too witty for that. I think you fearful, primarily.
My advice will seem too simple. But I urge you to try it. Its based on the advice in a book called Intimate Connections by Dr. David Burns.
The advice is: Eye contact, smile. How to do? Burns suggests "Smile Practice," where one starts by practicing with inanimate objects then moving up to dogs and then finally humans.
You're actually quite funny, you're probably gonna be fine on talking.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:18 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
You are funny. I mean the ha-ha kind. So work off that.
Although some persons have social deficits of a physical nature, I think you are too witty for that. I think you fearful, primarily.
My advice will seem too simple. But I urge you to try it. Its based on the advice in a book called Intimate Connections by Dr. David Burns.
The advice is: Eye contact, smile. How to do? Burns suggests "Smile Practice," where one starts by practicing with inanimate objects then moving up to dogs and then finally humans.
You're actually quite funny, you're probably gonna be fine on talking.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:18 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Great advice here so far, but I want to suggest something else:
Take a self-test for Asperger's and see if that fits at all.
You seem to have several things that signal this as a possibility, and identifying the underlying condition would greatly benefit you in understanding yourself, and helping you to understand that many Aspies are able to devise reasonable coping mechanisms to allow them to navigate social waters with ... well, less trouble, probably not "easily," but at least well within their skills.
posted by jgreco at 5:19 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Take a self-test for Asperger's and see if that fits at all.
You seem to have several things that signal this as a possibility, and identifying the underlying condition would greatly benefit you in understanding yourself, and helping you to understand that many Aspies are able to devise reasonable coping mechanisms to allow them to navigate social waters with ... well, less trouble, probably not "easily," but at least well within their skills.
posted by jgreco at 5:19 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I like math, physics, computer science, programming, etc. Yes, I have visited meetup groups based on these subjects. Nothing came of that. Just boring chatter with other socially challenged dorks.
You need to get a job in an industry where you can work with other socially challenged dorks. I'm serious. There are lots of people in the world who are into math, physics, computer science, programming, etc. Just about everyone I work and socialise with (in academia) is, for example, and most of our conversations feature these topics in some combination.
If I had to have daily conversations with coworkers about tiramisu, going to the pub, and cappuccinos, I too would fantasize about throwing someone out of a window.
You are in the wrong field.
posted by lollusc at 5:30 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
You need to get a job in an industry where you can work with other socially challenged dorks. I'm serious. There are lots of people in the world who are into math, physics, computer science, programming, etc. Just about everyone I work and socialise with (in academia) is, for example, and most of our conversations feature these topics in some combination.
If I had to have daily conversations with coworkers about tiramisu, going to the pub, and cappuccinos, I too would fantasize about throwing someone out of a window.
You are in the wrong field.
posted by lollusc at 5:30 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Have you read up on Introversion? And comparing Extroverts with Introverts? You may be one.
In real life, an introvert is someone who finds socializing draining, rather than energizing. On the Internet, we have somehow gotten to the point where "introvert" has become a signifier used by recluses and shut-ins with severe social anxiety to describe themselves. The OP may well be an introvert, deep down, but that is really the least of his problems.
posted by deanc at 5:41 AM on August 22, 2011 [11 favorites]
In real life, an introvert is someone who finds socializing draining, rather than energizing. On the Internet, we have somehow gotten to the point where "introvert" has become a signifier used by recluses and shut-ins with severe social anxiety to describe themselves. The OP may well be an introvert, deep down, but that is really the least of his problems.
posted by deanc at 5:41 AM on August 22, 2011 [11 favorites]
Honestly? This sounds like avoidant personality disorder to me. You really should be talking to professionals - they can help with this. You want someone who's focused on things like anxiety and DBT and social skills training, rather than someone who's focused on family therapy.
posted by SMPA at 5:56 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by SMPA at 5:56 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Join an a local Improv group.
posted by amazingstill at 5:59 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by amazingstill at 5:59 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
In order to communicate, you must first a) have some level of liking of the person, and b) have something in common with them.
It sounds to me like you automatically predetermine each time that you a) don't particularly like the person and b) have nothing in common with them.
Try a few exercises: Go up to some random person (maybe a cashier where you go grocery shopping) and try to find something about them that you can AGREE with. This doesn't have to be a common interest. This could be physical. That'll be the easiest place to start.
An alternate exercise is the same idea, but instead you find something to LIKE about them. It could be small. It could be "I'm choosing the cashier at lane 5 because I like his glasses." Then go up to him and tell him.
This is the most basic step towards real communication with people. It should start getting you in the mindset to WANT to communicate with people. You can expand these exercises to people you know once you get the basic idea with strangers.
posted by DoubleLune at 6:21 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
It sounds to me like you automatically predetermine each time that you a) don't particularly like the person and b) have nothing in common with them.
Try a few exercises: Go up to some random person (maybe a cashier where you go grocery shopping) and try to find something about them that you can AGREE with. This doesn't have to be a common interest. This could be physical. That'll be the easiest place to start.
An alternate exercise is the same idea, but instead you find something to LIKE about them. It could be small. It could be "I'm choosing the cashier at lane 5 because I like his glasses." Then go up to him and tell him.
This is the most basic step towards real communication with people. It should start getting you in the mindset to WANT to communicate with people. You can expand these exercises to people you know once you get the basic idea with strangers.
posted by DoubleLune at 6:21 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I want to agree with the people who are suggesting that you find and work with a different, better mental health professional. It might take some hard work to find someone with the right skills and approach, but I think it is something you truly need. This problem is making you unhappy and negatively affecting your life -- that's more than enough reason to find and work with someone on improving things.
Your post shows that you've already got a lot of the skills you're looking for. It's not as though you're not witty, you just need to break through the barriers that are stopping you from being witty in person.
This is a good point. You are saying super negative things about yourself and your ability to connect with others -- but your writing in this question was an example of extremely effectively connecting with other people. Your writing is vibrant and alive, with humor and sensitive to social nuances. So interpersonal connections aren't a totally foreign language for you; the key, perhaps, will be finding ways to do in real life what comes easily on a blank page.
posted by Forktine at 6:29 AM on August 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
Your post shows that you've already got a lot of the skills you're looking for. It's not as though you're not witty, you just need to break through the barriers that are stopping you from being witty in person.
This is a good point. You are saying super negative things about yourself and your ability to connect with others -- but your writing in this question was an example of extremely effectively connecting with other people. Your writing is vibrant and alive, with humor and sensitive to social nuances. So interpersonal connections aren't a totally foreign language for you; the key, perhaps, will be finding ways to do in real life what comes easily on a blank page.
posted by Forktine at 6:29 AM on August 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
I'm days away from turning 40, and have been thinking about this kind of thing a lot recently. This is not advice, but more my own reflections on how I've reacted and socialised with other people over the last 4 decades or so.
- I'm at my best in one-on-one conversation. I can handle groups of up to 3 or 4, but will be "the quiet one". Any more than that, I tend to STFU, or end up in a side conversation with one person.
- Try to make people laugh - but don't try too hard. I have a kinda quirky sense of humour, which means I often get weird looks when I say something that I think is funny, but they don't get. However, when someone does get it, it's like instant bonding. You know you have something in common with that person (ie - a similar sense of humour), it lightens things up, and ... it makes me feel good to make people laugh or smile :)
- A lot of people DO appreciate the person who says little, but when they do say something, it is interesting, insightful, or funny, as opposed to the person who prattles on about their new shoes incessantly for hours. Just because people are listening to the prattler, doesn't mean they're enjoying it, and they may be just waiting for a chance to talk to someone less.... vapid.
- Feel free to talk about your interests, whether the other person shares those interests or not. But be wary of body language. If the person seems bored or distracted, either change the subject or end the conversation. But a LOT of people, particularly women, would prefer to listen to someone who is interested and passionate about a subject, regardless of whether they themselves have any interest in the subject, rather than someone who talks meaningless crap about something just for the sake of talking.
Human interaction is good. I think that if there's a "reason" we're all here, it is our interactions and relationships with our fellow lifeforms.
posted by Diag at 6:32 AM on August 22, 2011
- I'm at my best in one-on-one conversation. I can handle groups of up to 3 or 4, but will be "the quiet one". Any more than that, I tend to STFU, or end up in a side conversation with one person.
- Try to make people laugh - but don't try too hard. I have a kinda quirky sense of humour, which means I often get weird looks when I say something that I think is funny, but they don't get. However, when someone does get it, it's like instant bonding. You know you have something in common with that person (ie - a similar sense of humour), it lightens things up, and ... it makes me feel good to make people laugh or smile :)
- A lot of people DO appreciate the person who says little, but when they do say something, it is interesting, insightful, or funny, as opposed to the person who prattles on about their new shoes incessantly for hours. Just because people are listening to the prattler, doesn't mean they're enjoying it, and they may be just waiting for a chance to talk to someone less.... vapid.
- Feel free to talk about your interests, whether the other person shares those interests or not. But be wary of body language. If the person seems bored or distracted, either change the subject or end the conversation. But a LOT of people, particularly women, would prefer to listen to someone who is interested and passionate about a subject, regardless of whether they themselves have any interest in the subject, rather than someone who talks meaningless crap about something just for the sake of talking.
Human interaction is good. I think that if there's a "reason" we're all here, it is our interactions and relationships with our fellow lifeforms.
posted by Diag at 6:32 AM on August 22, 2011
It seems to me that if you learn to love yourself more, as fraula points out, you'll have a greater chance at loving others. You need help. Seek out a therapist that works. It has taken years for you to develop this isolationist and robotic behavior so it will not be remedied over night.
posted by mizrachi at 6:51 AM on August 22, 2011
posted by mizrachi at 6:51 AM on August 22, 2011
I've found that the best way to build connections with people is not mindless chit chat about weather and cappuccinos. It's working together towards some kind of shared goal.
This. Find a hobby that involves other people.
Try gaming, like in-person, face-to-face gaming. Go to your local game shop and start playing magic or rpgs or board games or whatever. This lets you mediate human interaction through game play, so you have a reason to talk to people and meet new people.
posted by empath at 6:57 AM on August 22, 2011
This. Find a hobby that involves other people.
Try gaming, like in-person, face-to-face gaming. Go to your local game shop and start playing magic or rpgs or board games or whatever. This lets you mediate human interaction through game play, so you have a reason to talk to people and meet new people.
posted by empath at 6:57 AM on August 22, 2011
I came here to say what xingcat said.
I'm a loner and an introvert by nature, but I hide it well. It's super easy to turn your blank thoughts into conversation by asking questions. Instead of "This person likes tiramasu" ask "Why does this person like tiramasu?" and act accordingly. If you show curiosity in other people's statements you're well on your way to conversation and social interaction. Most people like nothing more than to talk about themselves and the things they love.
posted by patheral at 7:00 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm a loner and an introvert by nature, but I hide it well. It's super easy to turn your blank thoughts into conversation by asking questions. Instead of "This person likes tiramasu" ask "Why does this person like tiramasu?" and act accordingly. If you show curiosity in other people's statements you're well on your way to conversation and social interaction. Most people like nothing more than to talk about themselves and the things they love.
posted by patheral at 7:00 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Remember that not all conversations need 2 witty particapants. All you need to do is find someone half friendly and let them talk. There are way too many talkers and not enough listeners in the world and if you start with being a good listener (even if you are bored silly they don't need to know that) maybe read up on active listening and start to try and practice that.
One of the easiest ways to make people thing you are a sparkling conversationalist is to let them ramble on do all the talking and they'll walk away going "My that anonymous is an interesting person". The trick is to really listen, ask questions about what they are talking about, if you don't know anything about the subject ask about that. People love teaching.
Consider a conversation a learning experience, you can learn something from anyone, like you I find chit chat boring (I also find most fiction hard to read and prefer non fiction as I can't see the point if I'm not learning something) so I've made it my life goal to try and learn something from everyone I meet.
I am socially shy and hate meeting new people with a passion, but strangely enough the word most people that know me use to describe me is friendly, chatty and outgoing. Yet I probably talk 10% of any conversation I have, I ask questions and try and learn about the person I'm talking to. Where they are from, their hobbies, what shows they watch on TV, why they like those shows. Things like that.
posted by wwax at 7:00 AM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
One of the easiest ways to make people thing you are a sparkling conversationalist is to let them ramble on do all the talking and they'll walk away going "My that anonymous is an interesting person". The trick is to really listen, ask questions about what they are talking about, if you don't know anything about the subject ask about that. People love teaching.
Consider a conversation a learning experience, you can learn something from anyone, like you I find chit chat boring (I also find most fiction hard to read and prefer non fiction as I can't see the point if I'm not learning something) so I've made it my life goal to try and learn something from everyone I meet.
I am socially shy and hate meeting new people with a passion, but strangely enough the word most people that know me use to describe me is friendly, chatty and outgoing. Yet I probably talk 10% of any conversation I have, I ask questions and try and learn about the person I'm talking to. Where they are from, their hobbies, what shows they watch on TV, why they like those shows. Things like that.
posted by wwax at 7:00 AM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
Commit this Kipling poem to memory (or at least the first 4 lines) and you'll never be want for conversation:
I KEEP six honest serving-men
(They taught me all I knew);
Their names are What and Why and When
And How and Where and Who.
I send them over land and sea,
I send them east and west;
But after they have worked for me,
I give them all a rest.
I let them rest from nine till five,
For I am busy then,
As well as breakfast, lunch, and tea,
For they are hungry men.
But different folk have different views;
I know a person small—
She keeps ten million serving-men,
Who get no rest at all!
She sends'em abroad on her own affairs,
From the second she opens her eyes—
One million Hows, two million Wheres,
And seven million Whys!
posted by any major dude at 7:09 AM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
I KEEP six honest serving-men
(They taught me all I knew);
Their names are What and Why and When
And How and Where and Who.
I send them over land and sea,
I send them east and west;
But after they have worked for me,
I give them all a rest.
I let them rest from nine till five,
For I am busy then,
As well as breakfast, lunch, and tea,
For they are hungry men.
But different folk have different views;
I know a person small—
She keeps ten million serving-men,
Who get no rest at all!
She sends'em abroad on her own affairs,
From the second she opens her eyes—
One million Hows, two million Wheres,
And seven million Whys!
posted by any major dude at 7:09 AM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
I think you need to separate out two VERY different things: your need to learn the minimum conversational skills needed to keep your job; and your need for companionship (note the word -- companionship, not friendship, not conversation) in the rest of your life.
First, conversation skills at work: don't beat yourself up too much about this. I am a fairly well socially adjusted person outside of the office, but forcing myself to engage in the most minimal interaction at work can be HARD. Sometimes chatting with the coworkers is like a sharp stick in the eye. So you do need to approach this in a pretty mechanical way, figure out the norms of pure politeness needed so that people don't think you hate them. You may very well never really enjoy it, but that is fine. (It's possible, too, that you're in the wrong kind of work environment right now if it demands a lot of social interaction. You may need to find a niche where you are valued for your skills and your quirks are tolerated. Those niches definitely exist.)
Second, companionship outside of work: I think you are over-emphasizing the conversation aspect of "friendship." Friendship can be equally as much about being in the presence of another person, doing stuff together (i.e. -- companionship) as it is about conversation. To that end, find a hobby or activity you can do with other people. Or, find a topic you're really into that you can geek out about with other people -- not just boring, idle, chatter, but super-competitive geekery about all the geeky details in all of geekdom. You might find it fun.
Third, happiness: You know what? Maybe you'll never be a really social person. That doesn't mean the world, and humanity in general, is closed off to you. Maybe people aren't that interesting to you (as individuals), but the world is. Start checking out the world and humanity and see what you like about it, and start participating in it. Music, boats, art, geology, languages, poetry ... ?
posted by yarly at 7:10 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
First, conversation skills at work: don't beat yourself up too much about this. I am a fairly well socially adjusted person outside of the office, but forcing myself to engage in the most minimal interaction at work can be HARD. Sometimes chatting with the coworkers is like a sharp stick in the eye. So you do need to approach this in a pretty mechanical way, figure out the norms of pure politeness needed so that people don't think you hate them. You may very well never really enjoy it, but that is fine. (It's possible, too, that you're in the wrong kind of work environment right now if it demands a lot of social interaction. You may need to find a niche where you are valued for your skills and your quirks are tolerated. Those niches definitely exist.)
Second, companionship outside of work: I think you are over-emphasizing the conversation aspect of "friendship." Friendship can be equally as much about being in the presence of another person, doing stuff together (i.e. -- companionship) as it is about conversation. To that end, find a hobby or activity you can do with other people. Or, find a topic you're really into that you can geek out about with other people -- not just boring, idle, chatter, but super-competitive geekery about all the geeky details in all of geekdom. You might find it fun.
Third, happiness: You know what? Maybe you'll never be a really social person. That doesn't mean the world, and humanity in general, is closed off to you. Maybe people aren't that interesting to you (as individuals), but the world is. Start checking out the world and humanity and see what you like about it, and start participating in it. Music, boats, art, geology, languages, poetry ... ?
posted by yarly at 7:10 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
You could always try this...
However...
I've learned how to express insincere "how are you?"s (never really understood why people say that, when both parties are aware of the intrinsic insincerity) and feign interest in the interests of others just to keep conversations going. You're probably thinking to yourself "why does this guy even bother with such things if he thinks he's above them?" Here's why.
I've come to realize the utility of social connections.
This kinda rubs me the wrong way, because it seems like you are not really interested in other people and you only want to learn how to socialize to get what you want out of others?
I think that unless this changes, you will end up coming off to people as some kind of user or even narcissist or sociopath.
I think at bottom you need to figure out why other people are interesting or appealing to voluntarily spend time socializing with, and why you would be interesting or appealing to spend time socializing with to them.
I specifically said "time socializing with" instead of "time talking to" for a reason. Because I don't think you need to talk much with someone to form a really strong connection with them. So if talking is tripping you up, maybe try to start with connections that don't require talking. Maybe go on a crazy vacation in a country where you don't know the language at all. Or maybe just go to a temple and learn meditation and do a silent retreat for a weekend, or find a running group, or a hiking group.
And I think you are writing this off too quickly:
Firstly, my interests are confined to relatively obscure things like math, physics, computer science, programming, etc. Yes, I have visited meetup groups based on these subjects. Nothing came of that. Just boring chatter with other socially challenged dorks.
It sounds like you need to start from step one. Maybe these socially challenged dorks are only on step 2 or 3. But I think the most effective thing to do is do what you can there, reach step three, or maybe even reach step 4 or 5 with them and become the most socially skilled person in the room.
So, back to finding other people interesting. From several things in what you wrote, I kind of don't believe that you never find anyone else interesting and you never see a point in doing anything other than working and meeting your goals. For example, you reference PMITA prison which tells me you've either watched Office Space OR have spent a lot of time hanging out in places online where people repeat memes. Do you like to hang out on the internet? Making jokes, reading silly posts people make, watching videos? Could you see yourself having a friendship with someone that was all about making dumb jokes and watching weird videos?
You wrote that you were socially isolated after the age of 10. What were you like before the age of 10? How did you socialize? What things did you like to do? What changed?
posted by Ashley801 at 8:47 AM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
However...
I've learned how to express insincere "how are you?"s (never really understood why people say that, when both parties are aware of the intrinsic insincerity) and feign interest in the interests of others just to keep conversations going. You're probably thinking to yourself "why does this guy even bother with such things if he thinks he's above them?" Here's why.
I've come to realize the utility of social connections.
This kinda rubs me the wrong way, because it seems like you are not really interested in other people and you only want to learn how to socialize to get what you want out of others?
I think that unless this changes, you will end up coming off to people as some kind of user or even narcissist or sociopath.
I think at bottom you need to figure out why other people are interesting or appealing to voluntarily spend time socializing with, and why you would be interesting or appealing to spend time socializing with to them.
I specifically said "time socializing with" instead of "time talking to" for a reason. Because I don't think you need to talk much with someone to form a really strong connection with them. So if talking is tripping you up, maybe try to start with connections that don't require talking. Maybe go on a crazy vacation in a country where you don't know the language at all. Or maybe just go to a temple and learn meditation and do a silent retreat for a weekend, or find a running group, or a hiking group.
And I think you are writing this off too quickly:
Firstly, my interests are confined to relatively obscure things like math, physics, computer science, programming, etc. Yes, I have visited meetup groups based on these subjects. Nothing came of that. Just boring chatter with other socially challenged dorks.
It sounds like you need to start from step one. Maybe these socially challenged dorks are only on step 2 or 3. But I think the most effective thing to do is do what you can there, reach step three, or maybe even reach step 4 or 5 with them and become the most socially skilled person in the room.
So, back to finding other people interesting. From several things in what you wrote, I kind of don't believe that you never find anyone else interesting and you never see a point in doing anything other than working and meeting your goals. For example, you reference PMITA prison which tells me you've either watched Office Space OR have spent a lot of time hanging out in places online where people repeat memes. Do you like to hang out on the internet? Making jokes, reading silly posts people make, watching videos? Could you see yourself having a friendship with someone that was all about making dumb jokes and watching weird videos?
You wrote that you were socially isolated after the age of 10. What were you like before the age of 10? How did you socialize? What things did you like to do? What changed?
posted by Ashley801 at 8:47 AM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
You're only 24. Nothing is set in stone at 24, your life can still be anything you want it to be.
Are you interested in travel? Take a year to backpack and teach English in Asia. Take ecstasy on the beach at Koh Phangan at the full moon. You'll probably wake up without your wallet, but that's not so bad and it will definitely take you outside of yourself.
If that doesn't work, get a dog. A cat would probably be better, as they are inscrutable puzzles and teach you to serve, but a dog will get you out of the house. Good luck!
posted by cyndigo at 8:59 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Are you interested in travel? Take a year to backpack and teach English in Asia. Take ecstasy on the beach at Koh Phangan at the full moon. You'll probably wake up without your wallet, but that's not so bad and it will definitely take you outside of yourself.
If that doesn't work, get a dog. A cat would probably be better, as they are inscrutable puzzles and teach you to serve, but a dog will get you out of the house. Good luck!
posted by cyndigo at 8:59 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Here is something else you could try.
Express a thought at random and don't worry too much about whether or not it's a non-sequitur or something nobody else would care about. Sure, it's possible to swing the other way and babble on until everyone's eyes glaze over. But that's why you keep it short, like one sentence. Best at first if these thoughts are positive or neutral, but don't have to be.
So --
Some random person: "How are you?"
You: "Fine thanks."
AND
-"Not much traffic on my drive in." (Innocuous)
-"But I'm feeling a little tired today." (Innocuous)
-"As I was driving to work this morning I was thinking about the nature of time and how it XYZ" (Quirky)
If you say something quirky make sure it's on a topic that either the person is conversant with, or you explain your thought in a way that they can easily understand.
Don't feel the need to try to keep the convo going after this. The other person will reply with interest or just politeness ("cool"), if it's politeness, you can just smile and walk away.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:01 AM on August 22, 2011
Express a thought at random and don't worry too much about whether or not it's a non-sequitur or something nobody else would care about. Sure, it's possible to swing the other way and babble on until everyone's eyes glaze over. But that's why you keep it short, like one sentence. Best at first if these thoughts are positive or neutral, but don't have to be.
So --
Some random person: "How are you?"
You: "Fine thanks."
AND
-"Not much traffic on my drive in." (Innocuous)
-"But I'm feeling a little tired today." (Innocuous)
-"As I was driving to work this morning I was thinking about the nature of time and how it XYZ" (Quirky)
If you say something quirky make sure it's on a topic that either the person is conversant with, or you explain your thought in a way that they can easily understand.
Don't feel the need to try to keep the convo going after this. The other person will reply with interest or just politeness ("cool"), if it's politeness, you can just smile and walk away.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:01 AM on August 22, 2011
I don't know why, cyndigo, but for some reason I was totally thinking Thailand too when I was picturing a place where he should go.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:04 AM on August 22, 2011
posted by Ashley801 at 9:04 AM on August 22, 2011
When I ask someone how they are doing, I sincerely want to know. Don't assign pejoritive "insights" onto me (or others!) regarding motivations for asking, "How are you?" Thanks.
- Via many statements in your question, your attitudes towards your fellow humans are cynical and condescending.
This is the crux of your problem and we on the Internet can not fix this for you. Just because you are a nerdy science type, doesn't mean you can not achieve meaningful human relations. Before you can relate to other human beings, tho, you need to relate to yourself.
You do realize you are human just like the rest of us, right? You are just like the rest of us.
To develop interest in other humans, you should seek your own humanity, first. I think the easiest way to find yourself might be through an up close experience with another being. I know that seems paradoxical, but stay with me here....
Maybe think strongly about getting a pet? You need practical experience caring for something outside of yourself. Think a dog, not a cat. Cats can be too solitary, like you are currently. Dogs are naturally social with other dogs and people, some breeds more than others. You could learn a lot from taking care of a dog, but also by watching your dog interact with other dogs (dog runs? the park? on walks?) Additionally, a quick chit chat here or there with a fellow dog owner as you cross paths on your daily walks might give you some easy and comfortable opportunities to practice your social skills.
I know you have a bit of a slog ahead of you to overcome all this. My two recommendations are #1 for you to understand that as someone who didn't relate to others easily, many of your assumptions and conclusions drawn over the years about others are likely distorted or flat out wrong. Watch for that. Be prepared for your thinking to change as you move forward. And #2, I think you need some practical and daily hands-on experience to teach you about yourself, plus teach you how to care about someone outside of yourself. Get a dog. Pick one you like, definitely rescue puppy is great if you can find one.
It's a process to learn to like yourself and others. You'll improve.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 9:09 AM on August 22, 2011 [8 favorites]
- Via many statements in your question, your attitudes towards your fellow humans are cynical and condescending.
This is the crux of your problem and we on the Internet can not fix this for you. Just because you are a nerdy science type, doesn't mean you can not achieve meaningful human relations. Before you can relate to other human beings, tho, you need to relate to yourself.
You do realize you are human just like the rest of us, right? You are just like the rest of us.
To develop interest in other humans, you should seek your own humanity, first. I think the easiest way to find yourself might be through an up close experience with another being. I know that seems paradoxical, but stay with me here....
Maybe think strongly about getting a pet? You need practical experience caring for something outside of yourself. Think a dog, not a cat. Cats can be too solitary, like you are currently. Dogs are naturally social with other dogs and people, some breeds more than others. You could learn a lot from taking care of a dog, but also by watching your dog interact with other dogs (dog runs? the park? on walks?) Additionally, a quick chit chat here or there with a fellow dog owner as you cross paths on your daily walks might give you some easy and comfortable opportunities to practice your social skills.
I know you have a bit of a slog ahead of you to overcome all this. My two recommendations are #1 for you to understand that as someone who didn't relate to others easily, many of your assumptions and conclusions drawn over the years about others are likely distorted or flat out wrong. Watch for that. Be prepared for your thinking to change as you move forward. And #2, I think you need some practical and daily hands-on experience to teach you about yourself, plus teach you how to care about someone outside of yourself. Get a dog. Pick one you like, definitely rescue puppy is great if you can find one.
It's a process to learn to like yourself and others. You'll improve.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 9:09 AM on August 22, 2011 [8 favorites]
One last thing I forgot to mention:
A lot of what you wrote comes off as contemptuous of other people--
boring chatter with other socially challenged dorks.
why groups of kids my age would get together just to talk about mundane things... let alone waste their time...
Sometimes you make use of some contemptuous, harsh language and namecalling that's off-putting even though these examples were directed at yourself.
"autistic nerd"
"social retard"
"social zero."
You say a couple things that, while they would most likely be fine in most social environments composed entirely of young dudes, could really offend a lot of other people -- using the word retard, making jokes that reference prison rape
And as jbenben pointed out, in at least one case you assume negative things about other people's motivations: I've learned how to express insincere "how are you?"s (never really understood why people say that, when both parties are aware of the intrinsic insincerity)
I think you nailed it yourself when you said you think you are above these things.
So, I think the first and most important thing to do right from the start is lose all the contempt, really try hard to lose the harshness towards yourself and others, and try to stop thinking of yourself as "above" anyone or anything.
Trust me, people are really put off when they perceive that someone else has contempt for them, even when the other person doesn't at all feel that way in reality. This might be coming out a lot more than you realize and be much more of an impediment than you think.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:22 AM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
A lot of what you wrote comes off as contemptuous of other people--
boring chatter with other socially challenged dorks.
why groups of kids my age would get together just to talk about mundane things... let alone waste their time...
Sometimes you make use of some contemptuous, harsh language and namecalling that's off-putting even though these examples were directed at yourself.
"autistic nerd"
"social retard"
"social zero."
You say a couple things that, while they would most likely be fine in most social environments composed entirely of young dudes, could really offend a lot of other people -- using the word retard, making jokes that reference prison rape
And as jbenben pointed out, in at least one case you assume negative things about other people's motivations: I've learned how to express insincere "how are you?"s (never really understood why people say that, when both parties are aware of the intrinsic insincerity)
I think you nailed it yourself when you said you think you are above these things.
So, I think the first and most important thing to do right from the start is lose all the contempt, really try hard to lose the harshness towards yourself and others, and try to stop thinking of yourself as "above" anyone or anything.
Trust me, people are really put off when they perceive that someone else has contempt for them, even when the other person doesn't at all feel that way in reality. This might be coming out a lot more than you realize and be much more of an impediment than you think.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:22 AM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
I really don't have any advice to give, but you've just described me to a "T".
I'm 45 years old, married and we have a pretty happy, stable life. I hope that is encouraging.
I'm going back now to read the actual advice that folks were so kind to give.
Cheers.
posted by humboldt32 at 10:03 AM on August 22, 2011
I'm 45 years old, married and we have a pretty happy, stable life. I hope that is encouraging.
I'm going back now to read the actual advice that folks were so kind to give.
Cheers.
posted by humboldt32 at 10:03 AM on August 22, 2011
When you conceived of this question, you decided to ask a group of people about a set of unique details that apply to you personally. What you're asking about cannot be looked up in a book. The way it's answered is by people telling you stories about their personal experiences. That, in a nutshell, is what "socializing" is all about.
Look at the front page of AskMe. Most of these questions could be asked over beers, or in the coffee room at work. "Where to go in October near the Greek Isles that has some culture?" "Is this phone any good?"
When someone tells you they like tiramisu, that information may or may not be useful to you. If you want to know what it tastes like or how it's made, you can ask. Ask anyway, just to collect the data. It may prove useful someday. (eg: You'll know not to order it because it sounds mushy.). Now that you know which coffee shop makes good cappucchino, you can pass that data on to someone else, if you notice someone asking.
The reason people ask "How are you?" at the beginning is just so that they don't natter on about something insignificant like tiramisu or coffee if the person they're with is feeling ill or going through a difficult time.
posted by xo at 11:17 AM on August 22, 2011
Look at the front page of AskMe. Most of these questions could be asked over beers, or in the coffee room at work. "Where to go in October near the Greek Isles that has some culture?" "Is this phone any good?"
When someone tells you they like tiramisu, that information may or may not be useful to you. If you want to know what it tastes like or how it's made, you can ask. Ask anyway, just to collect the data. It may prove useful someday. (eg: You'll know not to order it because it sounds mushy.). Now that you know which coffee shop makes good cappucchino, you can pass that data on to someone else, if you notice someone asking.
The reason people ask "How are you?" at the beginning is just so that they don't natter on about something insignificant like tiramisu or coffee if the person they're with is feeling ill or going through a difficult time.
posted by xo at 11:17 AM on August 22, 2011
I think it would be helpful for you to reframe your interactions in terms of social capital. Don't think about economic utility; economic gains are likely to be fairly far-removed from your initial action and you could feel discouraged when you don't see an immediate result. Social capital, on the other hand, is quick to build and can pay off in a big way (as you observed).
For example, xingcat's suggestion about follow-up questions was great; those questions are key to a polite and flowing conversation.
Co-worker: "OMG I love cappucino from Best Cafe!"
Anonymous: "Oh, I've never heard of that place. Where is it?"
Co-worker: "At the corner of Wonderful and Amazing."
Anonymous: "Thanks for telling me; I'll check it out."
It's not so tough to generate a couple questions like these; I think you can do it if you plan ahead. On the surface (and to a pessimistic mind, which you seem to possess) it seems like a meaningless exchange, but it boosts your potential social capital in a few ways:
-Co-worker feels closer to you than before. (You are no longer Anonymous The Weirdo, you have become Anonymous The Polite.)
-You have opportunity for a follow-up with Co-worker. The next day, you can tell her you tried a coffee and a muffin from Best Cafe and they were both delicious - thanks for the recommendation. Or, you could stop by her desk in the morning and ask her, does she plan to head down to Best Cafe this afternoon for another amazing cappucino? (You have now become Anonymous the Thoughtful!)
-You have an opportunity to be helpful to 2nd Co-Worker. For example, 2nd Co-Worker is whining openly about being tired and you suggest he walk down to Best Cafe and try the cappucino; Co-Worker mentioned it and they were spot-on - it's delicious! (Now you get points for being Helpful to 2nd Co-Worker and Complimentary to Co-Worker!)
I think this kind of "game" could be fun for you, since you seem to want interaction to have a specific purpose and to be about relaying information. Try and figure out how you're building your social capital through your interactions and always be planning for the next one. Make it fun for yourself, however you can. Award yourself points, keep track of it, whatever you think would be motivating.
On the other hand, you can't expect that you'll suddenly start cashing in favours left, right and centre because you asked someone about their coffee break. The nice people who get ahead by socializing are doing so because they have a genuine interest in others. (I guess there are plenty of fake idiots who accomplish the same by dubious methods, but forget about them for now.)
Other commenters have discussed how to cultivate such a genuine interest in others and I agree that's likely to be the best long-term solution to your dilemma. However, I think careful application of my above suggestions (and other mefites' suggestions) will at least let you grease the wheels at work and help you keep your job. I think you really ought to focus on workmates for now and work up to friends outside of work.
If you found this helpful and you want to keep chatting about this, memail me! I think the way you write is pretty funny and insightful and I would be willing to keep discussing this issue, if you want.
posted by cranberrymonger at 1:56 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
For example, xingcat's suggestion about follow-up questions was great; those questions are key to a polite and flowing conversation.
Co-worker: "OMG I love cappucino from Best Cafe!"
Anonymous: "Oh, I've never heard of that place. Where is it?"
Co-worker: "At the corner of Wonderful and Amazing."
Anonymous: "Thanks for telling me; I'll check it out."
It's not so tough to generate a couple questions like these; I think you can do it if you plan ahead. On the surface (and to a pessimistic mind, which you seem to possess) it seems like a meaningless exchange, but it boosts your potential social capital in a few ways:
-Co-worker feels closer to you than before. (You are no longer Anonymous The Weirdo, you have become Anonymous The Polite.)
-You have opportunity for a follow-up with Co-worker. The next day, you can tell her you tried a coffee and a muffin from Best Cafe and they were both delicious - thanks for the recommendation. Or, you could stop by her desk in the morning and ask her, does she plan to head down to Best Cafe this afternoon for another amazing cappucino? (You have now become Anonymous the Thoughtful!)
-You have an opportunity to be helpful to 2nd Co-Worker. For example, 2nd Co-Worker is whining openly about being tired and you suggest he walk down to Best Cafe and try the cappucino; Co-Worker mentioned it and they were spot-on - it's delicious! (Now you get points for being Helpful to 2nd Co-Worker and Complimentary to Co-Worker!)
I think this kind of "game" could be fun for you, since you seem to want interaction to have a specific purpose and to be about relaying information. Try and figure out how you're building your social capital through your interactions and always be planning for the next one. Make it fun for yourself, however you can. Award yourself points, keep track of it, whatever you think would be motivating.
On the other hand, you can't expect that you'll suddenly start cashing in favours left, right and centre because you asked someone about their coffee break. The nice people who get ahead by socializing are doing so because they have a genuine interest in others. (I guess there are plenty of fake idiots who accomplish the same by dubious methods, but forget about them for now.)
Other commenters have discussed how to cultivate such a genuine interest in others and I agree that's likely to be the best long-term solution to your dilemma. However, I think careful application of my above suggestions (and other mefites' suggestions) will at least let you grease the wheels at work and help you keep your job. I think you really ought to focus on workmates for now and work up to friends outside of work.
If you found this helpful and you want to keep chatting about this, memail me! I think the way you write is pretty funny and insightful and I would be willing to keep discussing this issue, if you want.
posted by cranberrymonger at 1:56 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
There are two distinct skill sets in play here, and you appear to struggle with both of them.
1) Forming enduring and powerful bonds with individuals.
2) Being perceived as sociable; building a "social network".
These are rewarding in very different ways, and draw on very different instincts and skills. The first can ward off depression, can enrich experiences through sharing them, and can develop into romance. The second can "unbar doors", as you put it, and can keep you employed.
In the long term, I wholeheartedly recommend giving the former a serious shot. But it's the second that you're asking about here. Your efforts to establish a likable social presence will only be muddled if you attempt to apply the techniques by which a person establishes powerful interpersonal connections.
When someone tells me how much they like tiramisu, all I can think of is, "this person likes tiramisu. This person just told me that they like tiramisu. This person likes a specific kind of cake called tiramisu."
SOCIABLE SMALL-TALK MENU OPTIONS
Master and implement each level, then tackle the next.
LEVEL ONE RESPONSES
1) Agree, and elaborate. "I know! Especially when it's creamy and rum-soaked. Can't beat it."
2) Agree, but qualify. "Eh, tiramisu CAN be great, but when it's made badly it's just the worst."
LEVEL TWO RESPONSES
3) Disagree playfully, while smiling. "Man, I've never understood the appeal of that stuff. It's like eating a pile of icing!"
4) Ask about any element of the assertion. It doesn't need to be something interesting or even interesting to you. Just keep the other guy talking, and you'll rack up Conversational Participant Points. "Wait, which one's tiramisu again?" "Wait, how do you know about tiramisu?" "Wait, does tiramisu count as a kind of cake?"
LEVEL THREE RESPONSES.
5) Share relevant knowledge. "Did you know that 'tiramisu' is an Italian sentence, 'tira mi su', meaning 'pick me up'?"
6) Free-associate. "Once my mother spent all Thanksgiving making a giant tiramisu and then accidentally fed it to the dog."
posted by foursentences at 2:59 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
1) Forming enduring and powerful bonds with individuals.
2) Being perceived as sociable; building a "social network".
These are rewarding in very different ways, and draw on very different instincts and skills. The first can ward off depression, can enrich experiences through sharing them, and can develop into romance. The second can "unbar doors", as you put it, and can keep you employed.
In the long term, I wholeheartedly recommend giving the former a serious shot. But it's the second that you're asking about here. Your efforts to establish a likable social presence will only be muddled if you attempt to apply the techniques by which a person establishes powerful interpersonal connections.
When someone tells me how much they like tiramisu, all I can think of is, "this person likes tiramisu. This person just told me that they like tiramisu. This person likes a specific kind of cake called tiramisu."
SOCIABLE SMALL-TALK MENU OPTIONS
Master and implement each level, then tackle the next.
LEVEL ONE RESPONSES
1) Agree, and elaborate. "I know! Especially when it's creamy and rum-soaked. Can't beat it."
2) Agree, but qualify. "Eh, tiramisu CAN be great, but when it's made badly it's just the worst."
LEVEL TWO RESPONSES
3) Disagree playfully, while smiling. "Man, I've never understood the appeal of that stuff. It's like eating a pile of icing!"
4) Ask about any element of the assertion. It doesn't need to be something interesting or even interesting to you. Just keep the other guy talking, and you'll rack up Conversational Participant Points. "Wait, which one's tiramisu again?" "Wait, how do you know about tiramisu?" "Wait, does tiramisu count as a kind of cake?"
LEVEL THREE RESPONSES.
5) Share relevant knowledge. "Did you know that 'tiramisu' is an Italian sentence, 'tira mi su', meaning 'pick me up'?"
6) Free-associate. "Once my mother spent all Thanksgiving making a giant tiramisu and then accidentally fed it to the dog."
posted by foursentences at 2:59 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
I wanted to come back in now that I have access to my computer and can link to things easily, to say more stuff.
Like, that the "it all started when I was 10" thing is a classic sign of social anxiety/avoidant personality. As in:
And, some of the signs and symptoms of AvPD include:
I hate to be all diagnosing strangers on the internet, but it would be difficult to write a more textbook description of AvPD than this question. Taciturnity and difficulty speaking fluently, even. There's a subtype of AvPD that accounts for bitterness, hostility, and feeling conflicted over whether or not you actually like people, too.
As useful as random tips on how to get through conversations are, it seems unlikely to me that they alone will help you recover from a decade-plus pattern of isolation (comprising 60% of your entire life to date, including all of secondary school and college and your entire adult life so far.) Even if you aren't actually diagnosed with social anxiety or AvPD, you've missed major developmental milestones all over the place, and it really does call for outside intervention.
(And for what it's worth, you can have a strong desire for social interaction - or really wish you weren't a recluse - and also fail to enjoy actual social interaction. This does not make you a narcissist, or a sociopath, or anything other than a person who is struggling with social interaction and has been for a very long time, which is not a recipe for sunshine and happy feelings about people. I am confident, reading your question, that you are not broken or poisonous or anything along those lines. Just ill-equipped to deal with people and thus uncomfortable doing so, which is something that we have some really good ideas on how to correct, as a society.)
posted by SMPA at 3:56 PM on August 22, 2011
Like, that the "it all started when I was 10" thing is a classic sign of social anxiety/avoidant personality. As in:
The mean onset of social phobia is 10 to 13 years.
Avoidant personality disorder is usually first noticed in early adulthood.
And, some of the signs and symptoms of AvPD include:
- Hypersensitivity to rejection/criticism
- Self-imposed social isolation
- Avoids interpersonal relationships
- Feelings of inadequacy
- Severe low self-esteem
- Self-loathing
- Mistrust of others
- Emotional distancing related to intimacy
- Highly self-conscious
- Self-critical about their problems relating to others
- Problems in occupational functioning
- Lonely self-perception, although others may find the relationship with them meaningful
- In some more extreme cases — agoraphobia
- Utilizes fantasy as a form of escapism and to interrupt painful thoughts
I hate to be all diagnosing strangers on the internet, but it would be difficult to write a more textbook description of AvPD than this question. Taciturnity and difficulty speaking fluently, even. There's a subtype of AvPD that accounts for bitterness, hostility, and feeling conflicted over whether or not you actually like people, too.
As useful as random tips on how to get through conversations are, it seems unlikely to me that they alone will help you recover from a decade-plus pattern of isolation (comprising 60% of your entire life to date, including all of secondary school and college and your entire adult life so far.) Even if you aren't actually diagnosed with social anxiety or AvPD, you've missed major developmental milestones all over the place, and it really does call for outside intervention.
(And for what it's worth, you can have a strong desire for social interaction - or really wish you weren't a recluse - and also fail to enjoy actual social interaction. This does not make you a narcissist, or a sociopath, or anything other than a person who is struggling with social interaction and has been for a very long time, which is not a recipe for sunshine and happy feelings about people. I am confident, reading your question, that you are not broken or poisonous or anything along those lines. Just ill-equipped to deal with people and thus uncomfortable doing so, which is something that we have some really good ideas on how to correct, as a society.)
posted by SMPA at 3:56 PM on August 22, 2011
What about volunteering? I think it would be really helpful if you volunteered regularly - helping and interacting with people that (you would suppose) have nothing to offer you in return. That might spark the "complete reorientation of mindset" that you say (& I agree) you need.
posted by aielen at 5:21 AM on August 23, 2011
posted by aielen at 5:21 AM on August 23, 2011
If you live in or near Seattle and want to hang out for an hour or whatever with someone who'd be happy to help you do some lane small talk with no fear of negative consequences, MeMail me. I'm pretty good at small talk when I couldn't care less about the topic, so maybe we could practice.
posted by tristeza at 8:13 PM on August 23, 2011
posted by tristeza at 8:13 PM on August 23, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
2. I think the fact that you're asking how to gain a desire to socialize with others indicates that there IS a small desire somewhere within you. The biggest thing that jumps out at me is your relationship with yourself; i.e. the self-talk. When you say to yourself, "This torturous experience is turning my mind to mush," you can agree that this statement will not kindle any desire to socialize with anyone, right? And that this statement, in itself, is somewhat of a hyperbole; the experience is NOT as tortuous as some other experiences may be, and your mind is NOT turning into mush. So the first thing to do when these bits of negative self-talk pop into your mind is to recognize them for what they are, and to really evaluate them: are they true or not? Probably not.
The next step would be to learn how to counter these thoughts and/or silence them completely. It seems that a ton of things run through your brain when you're initiating conversation, which hinders your ability to respond and amplifies your feelings of doubt as to why you're talking to this person in the first place. I would recommend reading the book Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman. Just reading the first chapter made me realize how much negative self-talk I engage in, and that there is a way to counter these negative thoughts for the betterment of myself. Going back to the psychologist, someone trained in cognitive behavioral therapy would also be able to aid in this.
3. As you said, your job is in jeopardy. Perhaps you can think about how hard it would be to find employment again in this economy, no matter what your job field is (and I'm assuming you've run into difficulties related to the job search before). Take action. Your question is a good first step. If the threat of unemployment doesn't light that fire of wanting to change your situation, then few things will.
posted by elisse at 1:19 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]