Am I screwing myself financially long-term if I go for a cheapie uncontested divorce?
April 26, 2011 11:00 AM Subscribe
Am I screwing myself financially in the long run if I go for a cheapie quickie uncontested divorce?
My husband and I have been separated since August of last year, and neither one of us have made any move toward starting divorce proceedings. I think I should get the ball rolling, but could use some advice.
On the face of it, our divorce should be really easy. We don't have kids, we don't have property - our only assets are a storage unit of furniture and about 20K in savings. I have been thinking we could just split everything down the middle and go through one of those divorce mills, which looks like it would cost about $750-$1000.
But the thing that makes me hesitate is that I worry that going for a 50/50 division of assets might wind up being short sighted in the long run. I made decisions during the marriage that were aimed at the benefit of our marriage but that wound up being bad for me personally.
For example, when we married, I came in with a lot of student loan debt (about 25K), and he had credit card debt (about 7K). I was the financial manager in the marriage, and decided that since his credit card debt was at such a higher interest rate, it made sense for us to use the joint funds to aggressively pay it off. So now (to the best of my knowledge), he has no credit card debt in his name (I don't have any), yet I still have all the student loan debt, which was barely reduced during our marriage (we will have been married 4 years this year).
Additionally, we were both in graduate school at the same time, and when I was graduating and looking for jobs, he had decided that he wanted to apply for postdocs outside of the state (we were living in NYC). Money was tight, and I knew we would have moving costs, so again, my student loan payments were either at the minimum payment or put on deferment while I socked away as much cash as possible to be able to afford the move. Additionally, since I knew it was likely that we would be moving just months after graduation, I was reluctant to get a job in my field of study just to quit so soon, so I took a job I was probably underqualified for and would feel comfortable leaving.
What wound up happening is that my husband wound up applying for and accepting a postdoc in another country, making the decision unilaterally with little regard to my lack of interest in leaving the US. I went with him because I didn't want to give up on our marriage that easily, but I was horribly unhappy and the marriage blew apart under those circumstances.
So now I am back in NYC, working another job that doesn't make a ton of money because I took the first one I was offered in order to get resettled. And this cost of living here is much higher single than married, so money is tight.
Meanwhile, we have not yet separated our finances - I was unemployed for the first four months of our separation, but now that I'm working and somewhat resettled, my husband has asked me to start separating them out, which is what has got me thinking that I want to make sure to do them right.
So I guess my questions are:
-Should I try for a division of assets that reflects some compensation for the personal sacrifices I made during the marriage?
-If I do that, will it wind up costing so much in lawyer fees that it wouldn't be worth it?
-Does the fact that I wasn't working during half our separation negate any additional claim I might have?
-If I do decide to ask for more of the assets, how do I bring it up to him without getting him horribly defensive?
We haven't talked about this at all - horrible communication was part of the breakdown of the marriage - but I would like to end things as amicably as possible and still wind up looking out for my best interests for a change.
Throwaway email: mefi.nyc.divorce@gmail.com
My husband and I have been separated since August of last year, and neither one of us have made any move toward starting divorce proceedings. I think I should get the ball rolling, but could use some advice.
On the face of it, our divorce should be really easy. We don't have kids, we don't have property - our only assets are a storage unit of furniture and about 20K in savings. I have been thinking we could just split everything down the middle and go through one of those divorce mills, which looks like it would cost about $750-$1000.
But the thing that makes me hesitate is that I worry that going for a 50/50 division of assets might wind up being short sighted in the long run. I made decisions during the marriage that were aimed at the benefit of our marriage but that wound up being bad for me personally.
For example, when we married, I came in with a lot of student loan debt (about 25K), and he had credit card debt (about 7K). I was the financial manager in the marriage, and decided that since his credit card debt was at such a higher interest rate, it made sense for us to use the joint funds to aggressively pay it off. So now (to the best of my knowledge), he has no credit card debt in his name (I don't have any), yet I still have all the student loan debt, which was barely reduced during our marriage (we will have been married 4 years this year).
Additionally, we were both in graduate school at the same time, and when I was graduating and looking for jobs, he had decided that he wanted to apply for postdocs outside of the state (we were living in NYC). Money was tight, and I knew we would have moving costs, so again, my student loan payments were either at the minimum payment or put on deferment while I socked away as much cash as possible to be able to afford the move. Additionally, since I knew it was likely that we would be moving just months after graduation, I was reluctant to get a job in my field of study just to quit so soon, so I took a job I was probably underqualified for and would feel comfortable leaving.
What wound up happening is that my husband wound up applying for and accepting a postdoc in another country, making the decision unilaterally with little regard to my lack of interest in leaving the US. I went with him because I didn't want to give up on our marriage that easily, but I was horribly unhappy and the marriage blew apart under those circumstances.
So now I am back in NYC, working another job that doesn't make a ton of money because I took the first one I was offered in order to get resettled. And this cost of living here is much higher single than married, so money is tight.
Meanwhile, we have not yet separated our finances - I was unemployed for the first four months of our separation, but now that I'm working and somewhat resettled, my husband has asked me to start separating them out, which is what has got me thinking that I want to make sure to do them right.
So I guess my questions are:
-Should I try for a division of assets that reflects some compensation for the personal sacrifices I made during the marriage?
-If I do that, will it wind up costing so much in lawyer fees that it wouldn't be worth it?
-Does the fact that I wasn't working during half our separation negate any additional claim I might have?
-If I do decide to ask for more of the assets, how do I bring it up to him without getting him horribly defensive?
We haven't talked about this at all - horrible communication was part of the breakdown of the marriage - but I would like to end things as amicably as possible and still wind up looking out for my best interests for a change.
Throwaway email: mefi.nyc.divorce@gmail.com
equitable division of assets, sure but you're missing the other half, namely the debts, equally distributed.
Now, can argue, what was brought in to the marriage vs acquired while married, etc. A lawyer can tell you what/whether a uncontested divorce in your state can include etc.
posted by k5.user at 11:07 AM on April 26, 2011
Now, can argue, what was brought in to the marriage vs acquired while married, etc. A lawyer can tell you what/whether a uncontested divorce in your state can include etc.
posted by k5.user at 11:07 AM on April 26, 2011
Yeah--it seems to me that the debt should be split too. Regardless of decisions made.
posted by Obscure Reference at 11:37 AM on April 26, 2011
posted by Obscure Reference at 11:37 AM on April 26, 2011
Do go see a lawyer. Even if things are more or less hunky dory with you and your soon-to-be-ex, you need to protect yourself -- and the things you learn in your own consultation might help both of you. You will save money in the long run by taking care now. This is one of the most worthwhile investments you can make, even if you don't think you have the money right now.
posted by Madamina at 11:44 AM on April 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Madamina at 11:44 AM on April 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
There will definitely need to be a balancing act between the cost of the fight and the value of winning a fight. It's not all or nothing, though. Even if you can't find a free consultation, it will probably be worth an hour of an attorney's time to talk about your options for dividing assets and debt.
posted by freshwater at 11:46 AM on April 26, 2011
posted by freshwater at 11:46 AM on April 26, 2011
I was sorta in the same position back in NYC about 9 years ago. My ex paid me a cash settlement in installments over the span of about a year. But he kinda didn't have to. We each had a lawyer, although fighting it out that way would have cost more than the settlement. We argued/talked it out and came to the final number on our own...
I had a very good moral argument for deserving the settlement and I REFUSED to back down about what was fair. I was nice about it, but I was firm.
YMMV. IANYL.
Yes. You should go for it and bring it up to your ex. The idea is that no one is happy in the end, but no one is unhappy. Splitting the debt sounds fair under the circumstances you describe. Use those financial figures to explain and calculate the appropriate amount. You won't need an attorney for this IF he agrees with the logic.
That said - consult an attorney before breathing a word of your intentions. You don't want to make any mistakes. Just letting you know you probably aren't off base by wanting to do this.
posted by jbenben at 11:47 AM on April 26, 2011
I had a very good moral argument for deserving the settlement and I REFUSED to back down about what was fair. I was nice about it, but I was firm.
YMMV. IANYL.
Yes. You should go for it and bring it up to your ex. The idea is that no one is happy in the end, but no one is unhappy. Splitting the debt sounds fair under the circumstances you describe. Use those financial figures to explain and calculate the appropriate amount. You won't need an attorney for this IF he agrees with the logic.
That said - consult an attorney before breathing a word of your intentions. You don't want to make any mistakes. Just letting you know you probably aren't off base by wanting to do this.
posted by jbenben at 11:47 AM on April 26, 2011
I regretted not getting a lawyer for my divorce- it's worth at least getting a consultation to see what you need to do to properly protect yourself. I can not emphasize it enough.
posted by Zophi at 11:49 AM on April 26, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Zophi at 11:49 AM on April 26, 2011 [3 favorites]
If you want to and feel able to pursue an amicable divorce, talk to a *mediator*. If that breaks down, then talk to a lawyer.
Also, read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Divorced-Without-Ruining-Your/dp/074320641X
As to your specific questions, they're far too complex for me to even form an opinion on.
posted by devbrain at 11:49 AM on April 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
Also, read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Divorced-Without-Ruining-Your/dp/074320641X
As to your specific questions, they're far too complex for me to even form an opinion on.
posted by devbrain at 11:49 AM on April 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think you should at least try to get an uneven split. You contributed a lot to him financially, so it seems fair at this point.
It seems to me that he is the key here. If you can get him to agree to something that seems fair to him, you don't have a need for a lawyer. If it's possible, perhaps you can go out to dinner together. The next step is being as open as possible. I find that is the way to keep other people from being defensive. Being as open, honest, and friendly as possible is disarming, and may put him in a place where is he is able to communicate. You could say something like, "So...you asked me to sort out the finances, and this is what I'm thinking..."
I'd have some real numbers, a real plan, so you're not just waffling around and saying "kinda this" or "kinda that." Know what you are proposing and have some answers ready. Again, be friendly and honest.
If he doesn't agree, then consult with a lawyer.
Or, it may be better to have a consultation with the lawyer FIRST. Then you'll have that information to bring into the conversation if you want. Although this does seem threatening. At the very least, the lawyer can answer your basic questions before you endeavor on a conversation with your ex. I would consider this route, too.
Basically, I say go for it if you feel you are owed. It's worth a try and it doesn't have to be ugly.
posted by amodelcitizen at 11:49 AM on April 26, 2011
It seems to me that he is the key here. If you can get him to agree to something that seems fair to him, you don't have a need for a lawyer. If it's possible, perhaps you can go out to dinner together. The next step is being as open as possible. I find that is the way to keep other people from being defensive. Being as open, honest, and friendly as possible is disarming, and may put him in a place where is he is able to communicate. You could say something like, "So...you asked me to sort out the finances, and this is what I'm thinking..."
I'd have some real numbers, a real plan, so you're not just waffling around and saying "kinda this" or "kinda that." Know what you are proposing and have some answers ready. Again, be friendly and honest.
If he doesn't agree, then consult with a lawyer.
Or, it may be better to have a consultation with the lawyer FIRST. Then you'll have that information to bring into the conversation if you want. Although this does seem threatening. At the very least, the lawyer can answer your basic questions before you endeavor on a conversation with your ex. I would consider this route, too.
Basically, I say go for it if you feel you are owed. It's worth a try and it doesn't have to be ugly.
posted by amodelcitizen at 11:49 AM on April 26, 2011
The New York State Bar has an Uncontested Divorce Program that might help you -- a volunteer lawyer (free!) helps you prepare your papers, and may be able to advise you about division of the assets.
posted by katemonster at 11:53 AM on April 26, 2011
posted by katemonster at 11:53 AM on April 26, 2011
If you both came into the marriage with the debts then they were your own debts not your spouse's. Then as you preferentially paid off his $7K debt rather than servicing both debts equally, I think at most you could claim is the the debt repayment should have been equal. Therefore, he owes you $3.5K. If I were your ex-spouse I would agree to this without needed a lawyer. If you told me I owed you more I'd fight tooth and nail.
So my advice is be realistic, the best solution is the one that is fair to both parties.
posted by Long Way To Go at 11:56 AM on April 26, 2011 [9 favorites]
So my advice is be realistic, the best solution is the one that is fair to both parties.
posted by Long Way To Go at 11:56 AM on April 26, 2011 [9 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
"Just to clarify, my ex is still living in the other country, and he hopes to stay there permanently - I don't know when he plans on coming back to the US for a visit again, so any kind of face-to-face communication (other than Skype) is not an option. So I'm not sure if there would be any way to do mediation under my circumstances.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:21 PM on April 26, 2011
It does sound like a consultation with a lawyer or mediator might be the best way to start off, before I make any kind of financial moves, but I am so overwhelmed at the idea of how to select someone. The only person I know who has gone through a divorce locally had a horrible experience with the lawyer - she had to sue him in small claims court - so I'm really nervous about making the right choice. Any suggestions for how to find a lawyer would be great."
What's the best argument you can put forth for him deserving more than a 50/50 split? You're acknowledging the support you got from him during your separation, which seems fair. What else might he feel that he's done for you? Is that more than the $3.5k that LongWaytoGo estimates (or heck, add interest, call it $4k, whatever numbers you total up)? Don't take anything personally, just think about the numbers.
Now consider, how much is it worth to you to be civil and come out of this feeling like a decent person? You made decisions while you were married that were for the good of the couple, and in some sense, that's water under the bridge. Year 2007 came and went and took that income, that debt payment, that big Christmas present, that time when [he paid for a big vacation that you didn't really want to go on anyway], etc. with it. If you feel that he was making decisions that were not for the good of the couple, and he now owes you for your wasted time and effort, this is the kind of thing that people get lawyers over. Lawyers are very good at estimating the dollar value of heartbreak, but it's worth considering whether you really want to spend all that time discussing all the possible reasons you have to feel resentful and "owed" or whether you just want to move on.
If you're willing to just stick with the numbers (money earned, retirement savings earmarked for one person vs another, debts paid off under one name vs another) then this is something you can do with a spreadsheet. My recommendation would be to make a spreadsheet including everything and a 50/50 split, make a version as biased in his favor as reasonable and a version biased as much in your favor as reasonable, and look at the difference between them and decide how much you care.
posted by aimedwander at 12:32 PM on April 26, 2011
Now consider, how much is it worth to you to be civil and come out of this feeling like a decent person? You made decisions while you were married that were for the good of the couple, and in some sense, that's water under the bridge. Year 2007 came and went and took that income, that debt payment, that big Christmas present, that time when [he paid for a big vacation that you didn't really want to go on anyway], etc. with it. If you feel that he was making decisions that were not for the good of the couple, and he now owes you for your wasted time and effort, this is the kind of thing that people get lawyers over. Lawyers are very good at estimating the dollar value of heartbreak, but it's worth considering whether you really want to spend all that time discussing all the possible reasons you have to feel resentful and "owed" or whether you just want to move on.
If you're willing to just stick with the numbers (money earned, retirement savings earmarked for one person vs another, debts paid off under one name vs another) then this is something you can do with a spreadsheet. My recommendation would be to make a spreadsheet including everything and a 50/50 split, make a version as biased in his favor as reasonable and a version biased as much in your favor as reasonable, and look at the difference between them and decide how much you care.
posted by aimedwander at 12:32 PM on April 26, 2011
Seems like you really only have justification for the $3.5k. And if he disagrees and the whole thing turns contentious it will cost you (and him) BAJILLIONS of dollars in PURE UNADULTERATED ANGUISH, HEADACHE AND GRAR!!!!!!! Is $3500 (maaaaybe!) worth that?
Split it down the middle and move on with your life.
posted by ian1977 at 12:44 PM on April 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
Split it down the middle and move on with your life.
posted by ian1977 at 12:44 PM on April 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
OP, I've been in your shoes (albeit in another state and living across the street from my ex).
This info from the wiki might help you as you poke around for a lawyer. I'll bet that a load of MeFites in New York have the ability to help you find someone, so if you're willing to accept recs at your throwaway email that could probably be a start.
My main piece of advice, like the wiki says, is to start with anybody you know who has had ANY sort of good experience with ANY lawyer and move on from there. Find that lawyer and ask if they have any experience with divorce/family law, anyone in their firm who does or any friends/colleagues who do. It doesn't matter if the first lawyer only does patent law or criminal defense as long as they know someone who does. (PLEASE don't go with someone unless they have experience in the field you need. Don't just go with your neighbor Carl because he's an awesome estate lawyer and thinks he can probably handle it.)
Please feel free to MeMail me if you would like to chat.
posted by Madamina at 12:54 PM on April 26, 2011
This info from the wiki might help you as you poke around for a lawyer. I'll bet that a load of MeFites in New York have the ability to help you find someone, so if you're willing to accept recs at your throwaway email that could probably be a start.
My main piece of advice, like the wiki says, is to start with anybody you know who has had ANY sort of good experience with ANY lawyer and move on from there. Find that lawyer and ask if they have any experience with divorce/family law, anyone in their firm who does or any friends/colleagues who do. It doesn't matter if the first lawyer only does patent law or criminal defense as long as they know someone who does. (PLEASE don't go with someone unless they have experience in the field you need. Don't just go with your neighbor Carl because he's an awesome estate lawyer and thinks he can probably handle it.)
Please feel free to MeMail me if you would like to chat.
posted by Madamina at 12:54 PM on April 26, 2011
New York State has some strong laws on community property and education:
PROPERTY DISTRIBUTION
...
•Any equitable claim to, interest in, or direct or indirect contribution made to the acquisition of such marital property by the party not having title, including joint efforts or expenditures and contributions and services as a spouse, parent, wage earner and homemaker, and to the career or career potential of the other party.
...
ALIMONY/MAINTENANCE/SPOUSAL SUPPORT:
Either spouse may be awarded spousal support. In determining the amount and duration of maintenance the court shall consider:
...
•Reduced or lost lifetime earning capacity of the party seeking maintenance as a result of having foregone or delayed education, training, employment, or career opportunities during the marriage.
...
•Contributions and services of the party seeking maintenance as a spouse, parent, wage earner and homemaker, and to the career or career potential of the other party.
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/statedivorcelaws/a/NYork_Laws.htm
IANAL but if you sacrificed your career for his, it looks as though you could have a claim on part of his future income if you wanted as well.
posted by GregorWill at 1:30 PM on April 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
PROPERTY DISTRIBUTION
...
•Any equitable claim to, interest in, or direct or indirect contribution made to the acquisition of such marital property by the party not having title, including joint efforts or expenditures and contributions and services as a spouse, parent, wage earner and homemaker, and to the career or career potential of the other party.
...
ALIMONY/MAINTENANCE/SPOUSAL SUPPORT:
Either spouse may be awarded spousal support. In determining the amount and duration of maintenance the court shall consider:
...
•Reduced or lost lifetime earning capacity of the party seeking maintenance as a result of having foregone or delayed education, training, employment, or career opportunities during the marriage.
...
•Contributions and services of the party seeking maintenance as a spouse, parent, wage earner and homemaker, and to the career or career potential of the other party.
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/statedivorcelaws/a/NYork_Laws.htm
IANAL but if you sacrificed your career for his, it looks as though you could have a claim on part of his future income if you wanted as well.
posted by GregorWill at 1:30 PM on April 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
The international angle is another reason why it's a good idea to get consultations from a couple of lawyers, even if you wind up going for a fairly straightforward uncontested divorce in the end. I have no particular reason to believe your husband is anything but completely honest and scrupulous, but right now you're in what could be a very precarious situation: your estranged husband whom you plan to divorce is overseas, has no plans to return to the US anytime soon, and has access to all your accounts. Your divorce could become exponentially more complicated should he decide that it's the perfect time to splurge on a fancy new Vespa or even if he decides to handle the situation by completely ignoring you and all attempts to obtain a divorce. Again, I'm not making a judgement about him–I don't know him at all–, but I'm just trying to point out a potential concern and a reason why it's a good idea to at least talk to a few divorce lawyers who do this sort of thing every day. I'd specifically emphasize the international situation here with whoever you meet with and ask how that may complicate things and what you should be doing now to separate your accounts.
In terms of how to select someone, you don't have to feel overwhelmed. Take it slow. Get a few consultations and see what they have to say. There's no obligation there, so all it can do is give you more options. Worst case is you hate all of them, but you've learned a bit more about how the process works and what you can expect so you go from there. Best case is you really click with someone and you go from there. Either way, having a few meetings is a good first step.
posted by zachlipton at 1:36 PM on April 26, 2011
In terms of how to select someone, you don't have to feel overwhelmed. Take it slow. Get a few consultations and see what they have to say. There's no obligation there, so all it can do is give you more options. Worst case is you hate all of them, but you've learned a bit more about how the process works and what you can expect so you go from there. Best case is you really click with someone and you go from there. Either way, having a few meetings is a good first step.
posted by zachlipton at 1:36 PM on April 26, 2011
Ask yourself what would have happened with your debt had you not ever married this person, and what would happen if you stayed married.
Frankly, I would see a lawyer or three and explain exactly this to them. Pick the one that seems most pragmatic.
I would suggest not falling into the "what if" scenarios of the jobs you could have had and the money you could have been making. I think the most "profitable" outcome is for it to be over with as cheaply and equitably as possible so you can move on. If you get stiffed out of some money, so be it.
posted by gjc at 5:26 PM on April 26, 2011
Frankly, I would see a lawyer or three and explain exactly this to them. Pick the one that seems most pragmatic.
I would suggest not falling into the "what if" scenarios of the jobs you could have had and the money you could have been making. I think the most "profitable" outcome is for it to be over with as cheaply and equitably as possible so you can move on. If you get stiffed out of some money, so be it.
posted by gjc at 5:26 PM on April 26, 2011
He got $7000 of debt paid down, and so should you. You should get $7000 of your debt paid down from your joint account, and then you split what's left.
When a friend of mine got divorced a couple of years ago, the consultation with the lawyer was free, and the divorce cost $650. He's a very good lawyer, too, not a bargain basment type. And hers was a nasty divorce, although like you, there were no kids or real property.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:21 PM on April 26, 2011
When a friend of mine got divorced a couple of years ago, the consultation with the lawyer was free, and the divorce cost $650. He's a very good lawyer, too, not a bargain basment type. And hers was a nasty divorce, although like you, there were no kids or real property.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:21 PM on April 26, 2011
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posted by zachlipton at 11:04 AM on April 26, 2011 [1 favorite]