Savage Inequalities?Sex& Menopause
April 8, 2011 12:48 PM Subscribe
Savage Inequalities? Menopause and Erotic Intimacy. I have skimmed many AskMes and haven't seen quite this combination. Dan Savage is often touted and cited, but this combination is not well covered. What do Mefites and others do when their sex life is on indefinite hold due to their female partner's menopause? What if polyamory is off the table?
My partner and I are two cisgender Southern women in a May/December (or actually autumn/spring) 6.5-year monogamous interracial lesbian-identified queer relationship. We are both pursuing lives in academia. We have had a pretty passionate erotic life that included sex as an entree, and although we did see some tapering off by year three, changes in health have effectively squashed our sex life AND much of our erotic life. Some of her erotic zones are in hypersensitivity mode and others are numb. She's got flashes and has been in the time we have been together diagnosed with a chronic illness. I had pain and trouble with my back and pelvic region. We have really tried using all our therapy-speak and feminist language to work things out. We have cried and laughed together. I am a cuddler, and feel that this is an important relationship that I want to work on.
I feel like we are trying to grow together, but I wonder how I can hold on if sex never reappears, or appears in the distant future. My first wish is eroticism and sex with *her*. I notice other people who are attractive, but have rarely imagined having sex with them as a solution... until lately (year 3.5 of no sex and very limited, abortive cuddling). The more we talk about it, the more I feel rejected, beyond her saying that she is sorry and beyond my intellectual agreement that she is not rejecting me. I try not to pressure her. We've talked about the languages of love, and try to do right by each other. She is a hardworking type A person and my work ethic is pretty different. Compared to her, I advocate putting a lot of "work" into relationships, but I have also said that as queers we actively *choose* to be together even without the social edifices that keep married straights together.
This is all to say, I can't easily imagine living without her, yet I am not satisfied with getting myself off as a substitute for the attention that eroticism and sex from a partner provide.
I'm sure that her off-hand, half-joking suggestion that I go find someone else is probably not a solution; I often tell her I can barely keep up with her. I'm the young hot thing in the relationship: what do I do?
My partner and I are two cisgender Southern women in a May/December (or actually autumn/spring) 6.5-year monogamous interracial lesbian-identified queer relationship. We are both pursuing lives in academia. We have had a pretty passionate erotic life that included sex as an entree, and although we did see some tapering off by year three, changes in health have effectively squashed our sex life AND much of our erotic life. Some of her erotic zones are in hypersensitivity mode and others are numb. She's got flashes and has been in the time we have been together diagnosed with a chronic illness. I had pain and trouble with my back and pelvic region. We have really tried using all our therapy-speak and feminist language to work things out. We have cried and laughed together. I am a cuddler, and feel that this is an important relationship that I want to work on.
I feel like we are trying to grow together, but I wonder how I can hold on if sex never reappears, or appears in the distant future. My first wish is eroticism and sex with *her*. I notice other people who are attractive, but have rarely imagined having sex with them as a solution... until lately (year 3.5 of no sex and very limited, abortive cuddling). The more we talk about it, the more I feel rejected, beyond her saying that she is sorry and beyond my intellectual agreement that she is not rejecting me. I try not to pressure her. We've talked about the languages of love, and try to do right by each other. She is a hardworking type A person and my work ethic is pretty different. Compared to her, I advocate putting a lot of "work" into relationships, but I have also said that as queers we actively *choose* to be together even without the social edifices that keep married straights together.
This is all to say, I can't easily imagine living without her, yet I am not satisfied with getting myself off as a substitute for the attention that eroticism and sex from a partner provide.
I'm sure that her off-hand, half-joking suggestion that I go find someone else is probably not a solution; I often tell her I can barely keep up with her. I'm the young hot thing in the relationship: what do I do?
Yeah, Savage really doesn't like to talk about vaginas. Or people who have them.
The thing that jumps out at me in your question is that you both seem to feel like this is your problem. It's not. It's a problem that belongs to both of you. It kind of sounds like you're telling her, "my needs are not being met in this area" and she's just going, "Oh, tough luck. Love you!" That's not adequate. It is her responsibility as well as yours. I mean, she doesn't want to have sex with you, but does she want to want to have sex with you? If so, hormone replacement therapy can be effective in reestablishing libido after menopause. If she's not interested in that, and neither of you can consider opening up your relationship, you need to ask yourself whether you can stay in a relationship where your partner ignores your needs.
posted by milk white peacock at 1:18 PM on April 8, 2011 [7 favorites]
The thing that jumps out at me in your question is that you both seem to feel like this is your problem. It's not. It's a problem that belongs to both of you. It kind of sounds like you're telling her, "my needs are not being met in this area" and she's just going, "Oh, tough luck. Love you!" That's not adequate. It is her responsibility as well as yours. I mean, she doesn't want to have sex with you, but does she want to want to have sex with you? If so, hormone replacement therapy can be effective in reestablishing libido after menopause. If she's not interested in that, and neither of you can consider opening up your relationship, you need to ask yourself whether you can stay in a relationship where your partner ignores your needs.
posted by milk white peacock at 1:18 PM on April 8, 2011 [7 favorites]
I would consider hormone replacement therapy as a last resort because of its potential to cause serious health problems. Instead, how about couples therapy (of course with a therapist who is experienced with working with lesbian couples). Maybe someone who is trained to help and is a more detached outsider can help you get out of the unproductive loop you seem to be stuck in.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:24 PM on April 8, 2011
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:24 PM on April 8, 2011
: "This is all to say, I can't easily imagine living without her, yet I am not satisfied with getting myself off as a substitute for the attention that eroticism and sex from a partner provide."
I assume you are exploring the obvious middle ground of getting yourself off with your partner? I'm unclear how, while less than the ideal, this would not be a significant strategy in nurturing eroticism and intimacy.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:43 PM on April 8, 2011
I assume you are exploring the obvious middle ground of getting yourself off with your partner? I'm unclear how, while less than the ideal, this would not be a significant strategy in nurturing eroticism and intimacy.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:43 PM on April 8, 2011
I should first point out that I have very little experience being a hot younger woman being in a lesbian relationship with an older woman going through menopause. Actually, I have none. With that caveat out of the way, here goes:
You have a right to a sexual relationship. Your needs are important too, and you are not the bad guy for being disappointed that you can't be fulfilled by your partner, just like married men aren't assholes for wanting to make love to their wives on a regular basis when she's lost all interest in sex. The problem here isn't with you, the problem is within the relationship itself. Going 3 and a half years in a relationship with little or no sex is a very, very long time.
I think the advice here is really the same as if you two were a completely straight, heteronormative couple going through the same thing. You need to sit her down and have a long talk about this. You need to be clear that for you, sex is a vital part of a relationship, and that it pains you that you can't have it in this relationship. Make her understand that this is not a minor thing, this is a very real problem for the two of you that you have to work out. Either she finds a way to satisfy you, or else open up the relationship.
That said, there's no magic button for turning on her libido. There may be nothing you (or she) can do to kick-start this. Certainly talk about trying things like hormone replacement therapy, but it's still no guarantee. Menopause is a time of serious hormonal change that can completely kill a persons sex-drive.
You say that "I'm sure that her off-hand, half-joking suggestion that I go find someone else is probably not a solution", but are you really so sure? I'm pretty certain that your partner knows that something that is a big issue for you, and that half-joking suggestion may have been an attempt (a clumsy attempt, to be sure) on her part to make you understand that she might be ok with this solution. People do that, you know, when they want to bring up topics they might be a little afraid to have a frank conversation about, they sometimes bring it up as a joke. Talk to her about it, but stop being coy about it, say "You've joked about me maybe finding something on the side to help satisfy me. Is this just a joke, or is this something you might actually consider?".
The point here is this: yes, Dan Savage has never addressed the question when it comes to your specific set of circumstances, but he has addressed it a billion times when it comes straight married people. The advice is the same: understand that this is a very real problem in the relationship, understand that you're not the bad guy (or cisgendered lesbian-identified woman, as the case may be), and have a long talk about solutions, including opening up the relationship. If she doesn't agree to that, think seriously about ending the relationship.
And imagine this: if she's entering menopause now, she may have a good thirty or forty years left to live, presumably with you. Can you imagine going for the next thirty years without any significant sexual contact? Is that the future you want? It's certainly seems like a pretty likely future if everything stays in the status quo.
posted by gkhan at 2:14 PM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
You have a right to a sexual relationship. Your needs are important too, and you are not the bad guy for being disappointed that you can't be fulfilled by your partner, just like married men aren't assholes for wanting to make love to their wives on a regular basis when she's lost all interest in sex. The problem here isn't with you, the problem is within the relationship itself. Going 3 and a half years in a relationship with little or no sex is a very, very long time.
I think the advice here is really the same as if you two were a completely straight, heteronormative couple going through the same thing. You need to sit her down and have a long talk about this. You need to be clear that for you, sex is a vital part of a relationship, and that it pains you that you can't have it in this relationship. Make her understand that this is not a minor thing, this is a very real problem for the two of you that you have to work out. Either she finds a way to satisfy you, or else open up the relationship.
That said, there's no magic button for turning on her libido. There may be nothing you (or she) can do to kick-start this. Certainly talk about trying things like hormone replacement therapy, but it's still no guarantee. Menopause is a time of serious hormonal change that can completely kill a persons sex-drive.
You say that "I'm sure that her off-hand, half-joking suggestion that I go find someone else is probably not a solution", but are you really so sure? I'm pretty certain that your partner knows that something that is a big issue for you, and that half-joking suggestion may have been an attempt (a clumsy attempt, to be sure) on her part to make you understand that she might be ok with this solution. People do that, you know, when they want to bring up topics they might be a little afraid to have a frank conversation about, they sometimes bring it up as a joke. Talk to her about it, but stop being coy about it, say "You've joked about me maybe finding something on the side to help satisfy me. Is this just a joke, or is this something you might actually consider?".
The point here is this: yes, Dan Savage has never addressed the question when it comes to your specific set of circumstances, but he has addressed it a billion times when it comes straight married people. The advice is the same: understand that this is a very real problem in the relationship, understand that you're not the bad guy (or cisgendered lesbian-identified woman, as the case may be), and have a long talk about solutions, including opening up the relationship. If she doesn't agree to that, think seriously about ending the relationship.
And imagine this: if she's entering menopause now, she may have a good thirty or forty years left to live, presumably with you. Can you imagine going for the next thirty years without any significant sexual contact? Is that the future you want? It's certainly seems like a pretty likely future if everything stays in the status quo.
posted by gkhan at 2:14 PM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
Has your partner tried OTC solutions for some of the worst symptoms, like hot flashes, Estroven (plant based estrogen) progesterone cream, etc.? Or compounded prescriptions for testosterone/progesterone/estrogen? Sildenafil cream for libido?
Has she seen her doctor to talk about any of this?
I am on HRT, and there are health risks, yes, just as there are health risks to the Pill. I think my thyroid issues are connected to my HRT, For example, so I have switched to a topical Rx from my doctor, compounded at a specialty pharmacy. And that is expensive, and not covered by my insurance.
But for some of us, the benefits of hormonal supplementation outweighed the potential risks or problems. I was dealing with, basically, an emotional and physical breakdown after my hysterectomy. The pros/cons in your situation you will both have to weigh for yourselves.
I understand how your partner feels; I've been there and it sucks. And I can empathize with your frustration. It's important for her to know that there ARE things she can do if she is willing to work on this issue. Is she willing to work on it with you?
And you should know that this can take time to resolve itself, and that you may have to be patient. My HRT regimen, I'm sorry to say, took literally years to be perfected (but I did see positive change after just a few weeks).
If your partner is not willing to see her doctor or seek out any help, it is possible these issues she is having will still imrove with time. I can certainly understand running out of patience and acceptance in the meantime. If she won't work on this relationship, you cannot be blamed for deciding to move on.
posted by misha at 2:18 PM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Has she seen her doctor to talk about any of this?
I am on HRT, and there are health risks, yes, just as there are health risks to the Pill. I think my thyroid issues are connected to my HRT, For example, so I have switched to a topical Rx from my doctor, compounded at a specialty pharmacy. And that is expensive, and not covered by my insurance.
But for some of us, the benefits of hormonal supplementation outweighed the potential risks or problems. I was dealing with, basically, an emotional and physical breakdown after my hysterectomy. The pros/cons in your situation you will both have to weigh for yourselves.
I understand how your partner feels; I've been there and it sucks. And I can empathize with your frustration. It's important for her to know that there ARE things she can do if she is willing to work on this issue. Is she willing to work on it with you?
And you should know that this can take time to resolve itself, and that you may have to be patient. My HRT regimen, I'm sorry to say, took literally years to be perfected (but I did see positive change after just a few weeks).
If your partner is not willing to see her doctor or seek out any help, it is possible these issues she is having will still imrove with time. I can certainly understand running out of patience and acceptance in the meantime. If she won't work on this relationship, you cannot be blamed for deciding to move on.
posted by misha at 2:18 PM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
I am a menopausal woman with a chronic illness. There is no requirement that sexuality ends at menopause or illness. Chronic illness may seriously affect libido, so treating the illness and its symptoms is a big help. Menopause may cause dryness(easily resolved), change in libido, and the sensitivities you mention. Hormone creams might help. Hot flashes are double-plus unfun, but don't break sexuality. Sexuality is a big part of being human; if her health care provider isn't helping, see a specialist in menopause. If she is taking anti-depressants, they can seriously affect libido, again, the right doctor/med combination can improve this.
Meanwhile, there's usually a common ground where 1 person exerts a little effort to behave more sexually because they love their partner, and the other exerts a little effort to seek sexual self-relief and provide care for their partner, whom they love.
posted by theora55 at 2:40 PM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, there's usually a common ground where 1 person exerts a little effort to behave more sexually because they love their partner, and the other exerts a little effort to seek sexual self-relief and provide care for their partner, whom they love.
posted by theora55 at 2:40 PM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just agreeing with theora55 here. I'm menopausal-- you could probably power a small motorboat with my hot flashes-- but I'm still interested in sex. While obviously everyone is different, menopause most certainly does not spell an automatic end to one's sex drive. Perhaps your partner could speak with a doctor specifically about this issue? Because it will sink your relationship (as you already know). Good luck.
posted by jokeefe at 2:52 PM on April 8, 2011
posted by jokeefe at 2:52 PM on April 8, 2011
From my reading of your question, it isn't just about the sex. I am not sure what she says to you when you discuss this issue with her, but it seems to me she is at the moment only willing to talk about it.
When you cuddle, why does it end? Is she tired, or bored? Or are you touching her too much? Does she sense that you are getting aroused and wants to cut you off before you get more frustrated?
Before her illness, post-cool down, you had a level of intimacy that you enjoyed. I wonder what exactly has changed. Does she give you attention now in the same way that she gave you before? Do you kiss as much? Hold hands as much? Say lovely dovey things as much?
Can you ask her to do things for you that don't take much effort for her but excite you? Perhaps she could wear the outfit that shows off her body, or a special perfume you like. Maybe she wouldn't mind buying you the trinket you want, or loading the dishwasher (whatever your love language is).
So she doesn't want to have sex. Would she be willing to do things for you to help you get off? Like she could be fully clothed and command you to strip and tell you to touch yourself. Maybe she could brush your hair. Maybe she could whisper seductive things to you in the middle of the day, for no reason.
My guess is that she has found a place where she is comfortable. She gets to have you and not work too hard to have you. Yes, she has less energy for you and other aspects of her life. But why should you be the one short changed? It is entirely reasonable to feel rejected if she doesn't try to give you something. It is entirely reasonable for her to feel that the sex you had before isn't just going to happen right now if her body makes it uncomfortable for her. But surely there is something in the middle, especially since you had a passionate love life before.
You don't want just sex. You want attention, too. Her body may not be able, but surely her mind is.
posted by Monday at 5:12 PM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
When you cuddle, why does it end? Is she tired, or bored? Or are you touching her too much? Does she sense that you are getting aroused and wants to cut you off before you get more frustrated?
Before her illness, post-cool down, you had a level of intimacy that you enjoyed. I wonder what exactly has changed. Does she give you attention now in the same way that she gave you before? Do you kiss as much? Hold hands as much? Say lovely dovey things as much?
Can you ask her to do things for you that don't take much effort for her but excite you? Perhaps she could wear the outfit that shows off her body, or a special perfume you like. Maybe she wouldn't mind buying you the trinket you want, or loading the dishwasher (whatever your love language is).
So she doesn't want to have sex. Would she be willing to do things for you to help you get off? Like she could be fully clothed and command you to strip and tell you to touch yourself. Maybe she could brush your hair. Maybe she could whisper seductive things to you in the middle of the day, for no reason.
My guess is that she has found a place where she is comfortable. She gets to have you and not work too hard to have you. Yes, she has less energy for you and other aspects of her life. But why should you be the one short changed? It is entirely reasonable to feel rejected if she doesn't try to give you something. It is entirely reasonable for her to feel that the sex you had before isn't just going to happen right now if her body makes it uncomfortable for her. But surely there is something in the middle, especially since you had a passionate love life before.
You don't want just sex. You want attention, too. Her body may not be able, but surely her mind is.
posted by Monday at 5:12 PM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
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If you are a podcast person, I highly, highly recommend checking out this one called "The Sexual Ecology of Love Relationships" —which was a conversation between KERA (Dallas public radio) host Krys Boyd and Dr. David Schnarch, author of "Passionate Marriage", a book specifically about how to manage sexual intimacy in a long-term established monogamous relationship.
Normally, this book/author would have been exactly the sort of thing I pooh-poohed as pop culture twaddle designed to appeal to some reader vastly less self-aware than me. (Yes, I can be a brat when it comes to the self-helpy things. I admit it.)
BUT. I subscribe to the Think podcast anyway and I was in the car on a long drive and gave it a go.
Absolutely fascinating look at the idea that every single human pair bond has one "higher desire partner" and one "lower desire partner", and how those dynamics play out in our partnerships. Dr. Schnarch explained that this rarely ever means the stereotypical "frigid housewife" and "horny lecher"... simply that there is some quantity of sexual desire where one person is X and another person is Y > X.
He discusses exactly the challenges that you mention: what do you do when cheating is not an option, but for whatever reason your needs aren't being met? How does that affect how you feel about the other person? What happens when it becomes a power struggle (and it always does become a power struggle, even if passively)? They talk, too, about how desire changes as the relationship changes—specifically how couples go from hot and heavy in the early years to cool or even celibate later on— and what about the individuals' emotional evolution can be the root cause.
Obviously in your case there are also some age and health issues on the table, but I still think you might find something useful in the episode.
posted by pineapple at 1:16 PM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]