You kicked me out and now want to hang out with me?
August 10, 2010 6:03 AM Subscribe
A couple of years ago, an acquaintance invited me to join a book club that met on Wednesday nights. I joined and came to meetings for several months. Then, one night, I walked in on Thursday night book club by accident...
...several of the members of Wed. night book club had created Thurs. night club behind my back, but kept on coming to Wed. book club so I wouldn't suspect anything. I don't know how long this went on; I'd like to think not long. None of them chose to tell me, until I walked in on them, that they had all decided they didn't like me. A couple of them sat me down and told me that I didn't "fit in" with the group, that I was overly dramatic and didn't pick up on social cues, and everyone felt like it wasn't "their safe cozy place" with me there. None of them, however, could give me any concrete examples of the things I'd done wrong, except to answer "how are you?" with "I have a headache," instead of just saying "fine thanks." Oh, and I never tried to hide my mental illness, so they said that was a concern - in what manner, I don't know and they could not or would not say. So I left, and didn't have a book club. (This did cause me a certain amount of distress and paranoia about people talking about me behind my back, which I did see a therapist about.)
Recently a new acquaintance started up Monday night book club. I joined on the first day, haing mostly forgotten the past situation, and it proved to be pretty popular. Very soon, members of Wed/Thurs night book club were showing up. I feel very uncomfortable with this... they went so far as to kick me out of their club, and yet now they want to hang out in a place where I am. I have heard through the grapevine that they are still holding Wednesday night book club. I feel like members of Wed/Thurs club might try to pressure members of Mon. book club to kick me out. But even if they would do no such thing, I still feel like I am not free to be myself. I feel like I have to watch everything I say very closely, lest I be judged to be overdramatic or un-socially-acceptable. I also feel like I can't say anything to the leader of Monday night book club, for fear that if she says anything to the Wed. night folks, they'll just tell her what happened in their eyes and say "there she goes being overdramatic again." I know they all have a right to attend this public book club, but since they still are holding their own, I really feel like I should not have to leave my new book club due to my discomfort. (A few of these people were not in on the whole Thursday night debacle, and I do not mind them coming at all, but the rest are the ones who make me feel uncomfortable.) How should I handle this?
...several of the members of Wed. night book club had created Thurs. night club behind my back, but kept on coming to Wed. book club so I wouldn't suspect anything. I don't know how long this went on; I'd like to think not long. None of them chose to tell me, until I walked in on them, that they had all decided they didn't like me. A couple of them sat me down and told me that I didn't "fit in" with the group, that I was overly dramatic and didn't pick up on social cues, and everyone felt like it wasn't "their safe cozy place" with me there. None of them, however, could give me any concrete examples of the things I'd done wrong, except to answer "how are you?" with "I have a headache," instead of just saying "fine thanks." Oh, and I never tried to hide my mental illness, so they said that was a concern - in what manner, I don't know and they could not or would not say. So I left, and didn't have a book club. (This did cause me a certain amount of distress and paranoia about people talking about me behind my back, which I did see a therapist about.)
Recently a new acquaintance started up Monday night book club. I joined on the first day, haing mostly forgotten the past situation, and it proved to be pretty popular. Very soon, members of Wed/Thurs night book club were showing up. I feel very uncomfortable with this... they went so far as to kick me out of their club, and yet now they want to hang out in a place where I am. I have heard through the grapevine that they are still holding Wednesday night book club. I feel like members of Wed/Thurs club might try to pressure members of Mon. book club to kick me out. But even if they would do no such thing, I still feel like I am not free to be myself. I feel like I have to watch everything I say very closely, lest I be judged to be overdramatic or un-socially-acceptable. I also feel like I can't say anything to the leader of Monday night book club, for fear that if she says anything to the Wed. night folks, they'll just tell her what happened in their eyes and say "there she goes being overdramatic again." I know they all have a right to attend this public book club, but since they still are holding their own, I really feel like I should not have to leave my new book club due to my discomfort. (A few of these people were not in on the whole Thursday night debacle, and I do not mind them coming at all, but the rest are the ones who make me feel uncomfortable.) How should I handle this?
This is one of the many balancing acts that life seems to require of us; on the one hand we do have to think about what we say and exactly how other people will be affected by our statements, rather than just saying whatever may be on our minds, but on the other hand we can't worry too much about whether we are saying the right thing, because at some point we will feel that it is just too risky to say anything to anybody, and thereby we become socially paralysed and unable to function as members of society.
Just do your best. Try not to say things that you can reasonably expect may be overly upsetting to other people, but don't let this prevent you from socializing or talking to people. In this particular situation, you do not actually have a problem with the book club - to your knowledge, no one is presently complaining about you - you are just worried about a potential problem. There may never be a problem. You may be entirely compatible with this club. Even if you are not entirely compatible, remember that it's just a book club. They can't sentence you to death. Not everyone is going to like you, no matter HOW charming you might be (there are, after all, people who do not like the very charming Barack Obama!) and sometimes you do just have to walk away from people. If you do have to walk away, there are other people who may like you better. So even in the worst case scenario, it's not exactly the end of the world. Meanwhile, just go ahead and talk about the books.
posted by grizzled at 6:16 AM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Just do your best. Try not to say things that you can reasonably expect may be overly upsetting to other people, but don't let this prevent you from socializing or talking to people. In this particular situation, you do not actually have a problem with the book club - to your knowledge, no one is presently complaining about you - you are just worried about a potential problem. There may never be a problem. You may be entirely compatible with this club. Even if you are not entirely compatible, remember that it's just a book club. They can't sentence you to death. Not everyone is going to like you, no matter HOW charming you might be (there are, after all, people who do not like the very charming Barack Obama!) and sometimes you do just have to walk away from people. If you do have to walk away, there are other people who may like you better. So even in the worst case scenario, it's not exactly the end of the world. Meanwhile, just go ahead and talk about the books.
posted by grizzled at 6:16 AM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think the real question here is who has time to attend three book clubs per week, much less read three books?
You can only control your own behavior. If you like Monday book club, keep going and if other people don't like it - it's their call whether or not they want to stay. I know that it's awkward to have people there that have been disrespectful of you, and if you decide that for your own sake you just don't want to take part in that, that's up to you. But really, if they have such a problem with you it's their call whether or not they want to hang out in a space where you are already an established (and welcome!) participant.
Try not to let the fact that these people were petty enough to create a separate book club while still "going through the motions" of attending the original club of which you were a member get to you. These people very obviously have some control issues as well as a fear of confrontation that has lead them to make their social lives very complicated indeed. They are incapable of being honest unless forced, and have valued carving out huge chunks of time to devote to perpetuating dramatic and uncomfortable situations over resolving their actual issues with people.
People like this exist in spades and they're often very exhausting to deal with. I'm sure they thought they were sparing your feelings, but in truth, they were just making the situation worse by prolonging the inevitable confrontation and building up an unnecessary level of drama around the whole thing. Try to put them out of your mind, or at least your social circle, and develop friends who value respect more than simply avoiding difficult conversations.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:31 AM on August 10, 2010 [7 favorites]
You can only control your own behavior. If you like Monday book club, keep going and if other people don't like it - it's their call whether or not they want to stay. I know that it's awkward to have people there that have been disrespectful of you, and if you decide that for your own sake you just don't want to take part in that, that's up to you. But really, if they have such a problem with you it's their call whether or not they want to hang out in a space where you are already an established (and welcome!) participant.
Try not to let the fact that these people were petty enough to create a separate book club while still "going through the motions" of attending the original club of which you were a member get to you. These people very obviously have some control issues as well as a fear of confrontation that has lead them to make their social lives very complicated indeed. They are incapable of being honest unless forced, and have valued carving out huge chunks of time to devote to perpetuating dramatic and uncomfortable situations over resolving their actual issues with people.
People like this exist in spades and they're often very exhausting to deal with. I'm sure they thought they were sparing your feelings, but in truth, they were just making the situation worse by prolonging the inevitable confrontation and building up an unnecessary level of drama around the whole thing. Try to put them out of your mind, or at least your social circle, and develop friends who value respect more than simply avoiding difficult conversations.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:31 AM on August 10, 2010 [7 favorites]
There was some very similar book club drama that was going on around here for a while including the starting a new book club, the whole deal. The basic upshot was that there was one or maybe two people who didn't like another person in the book club (thought she was fighty, didn't fit in, etc) and a lot of people who didn't really care one way or the other. So the people who felt more strongly about it sort of convinced the other people to make a change in the book club. So while it looked [from the outside, I was not involved in this club at the time] that the whole club made these decisions, in reality it was one or two people and then a bunch of people who sort of didn't say no when the decisions were made or might not have even known that decisions were made. I know the difference to you seems negligible, but I'd focus on that when you're going to Monday night book club.
At some level, turning book club into a drama factory is not what you want to do. It sucks that there are people who are divisive and pull shit like this, but you're now in a situation where someone else is in charge. I'd work on establishing trust with them and not bringing the old book club drama over from the old book club. If you have another buddy in the club, maybe make a low key mention about what happened and ask them for a frank evaluation of the group dynamic if you think you really do have trouble reading social cues to make sure you're on the right track.
And, at some level, focus on book club. Some groups are more for personal sharing and whathaveyou and some are not. I don't know what "I never tried to hide my mental illness, so they said that was a concern" means, but it's possible (just projecting at this point) that there may have been too much about your own internal monologue in a place where people didn't feel it was appropriate. Again, I have no idea and I don't know what your particular situation is, but that line sort of stood out at me in that "I'm not sure I understand what's going on" way.
posted by jessamyn at 6:44 AM on August 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
At some level, turning book club into a drama factory is not what you want to do. It sucks that there are people who are divisive and pull shit like this, but you're now in a situation where someone else is in charge. I'd work on establishing trust with them and not bringing the old book club drama over from the old book club. If you have another buddy in the club, maybe make a low key mention about what happened and ask them for a frank evaluation of the group dynamic if you think you really do have trouble reading social cues to make sure you're on the right track.
And, at some level, focus on book club. Some groups are more for personal sharing and whathaveyou and some are not. I don't know what "I never tried to hide my mental illness, so they said that was a concern" means, but it's possible (just projecting at this point) that there may have been too much about your own internal monologue in a place where people didn't feel it was appropriate. Again, I have no idea and I don't know what your particular situation is, but that line sort of stood out at me in that "I'm not sure I understand what's going on" way.
posted by jessamyn at 6:44 AM on August 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
When do you guys find the time to talk about the book?
Look, having facilitated quite a few book groups I can tell you that there are some 'types' that hijack book discussions to the annoyance of other members. Usually these hijackers are unaware of what they're doing. It's up to a facilitator (who can be an outside party) to keep the discussion on point and disallow derailment.
Unless that's why you all are meeting.
There are book clubs that exist to discuss literature and themes, etc. Then there are the ones that are gossip-fests with book discussion as an excuse. If you are attending a 'free and open to the public' book group, the discussion should be about the book. However, if it's a private 'members-only' type book group, you are subject to all the social crap that comes with.
If there is a facilitator, you could privately let them know about the existence of this other club that is encroaching on the Monday group. Leave out all the personal stuff -- to the facilitator that's all extraneous and irrelevant. The possibility of this other group taking over the Monday group is something your facilitator should know about so they can steer the group accordingly.
Also: just as a side note, and as an experiment, keep your own comments on topic. Perhaps you are a bit too TMI at these meetings. People can't fairly say they dislike you until they feel that they know you. Reserve your true self for your true friends and you'll find the world a friendlier place.
posted by kidelo at 6:45 AM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Look, having facilitated quite a few book groups I can tell you that there are some 'types' that hijack book discussions to the annoyance of other members. Usually these hijackers are unaware of what they're doing. It's up to a facilitator (who can be an outside party) to keep the discussion on point and disallow derailment.
Unless that's why you all are meeting.
There are book clubs that exist to discuss literature and themes, etc. Then there are the ones that are gossip-fests with book discussion as an excuse. If you are attending a 'free and open to the public' book group, the discussion should be about the book. However, if it's a private 'members-only' type book group, you are subject to all the social crap that comes with.
If there is a facilitator, you could privately let them know about the existence of this other club that is encroaching on the Monday group. Leave out all the personal stuff -- to the facilitator that's all extraneous and irrelevant. The possibility of this other group taking over the Monday group is something your facilitator should know about so they can steer the group accordingly.
Also: just as a side note, and as an experiment, keep your own comments on topic. Perhaps you are a bit too TMI at these meetings. People can't fairly say they dislike you until they feel that they know you. Reserve your true self for your true friends and you'll find the world a friendlier place.
posted by kidelo at 6:45 AM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Sounds like Weds night book club people are a bunch of weak little children.
Also sounds like you might HAVE to watch what you say and do, at least when it comes to being negative/revealing too much. Isn't that what adults do when in the company of other adults that they want to stay a part of? These people aren't your "friends", so it's not like you have the freedom to be totally carefree and kvetch. People get tired of this kind of thing. It's called etiquette, and at least the Weds people gave you the courtesy of finally telling you that you've done things they've found annoying to your face. Take this as constructive criticism, learn and move on.
You should continue going to Mon book club, stay reserved as you have been, and let the chips fall where they may. If you do complain, then perhaps Mon leaders will think that the Weds people have a point (if the subject ever even gets broached at all), but if you stay agreeable (you do realize that the Weds people have every right to be there), then whatever the Weds people might say could appear as shallow, false and mean, therefore shooting themselves in the foot.
posted by dozo at 6:57 AM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Also sounds like you might HAVE to watch what you say and do, at least when it comes to being negative/revealing too much. Isn't that what adults do when in the company of other adults that they want to stay a part of? These people aren't your "friends", so it's not like you have the freedom to be totally carefree and kvetch. People get tired of this kind of thing. It's called etiquette, and at least the Weds people gave you the courtesy of finally telling you that you've done things they've found annoying to your face. Take this as constructive criticism, learn and move on.
You should continue going to Mon book club, stay reserved as you have been, and let the chips fall where they may. If you do complain, then perhaps Mon leaders will think that the Weds people have a point (if the subject ever even gets broached at all), but if you stay agreeable (you do realize that the Weds people have every right to be there), then whatever the Weds people might say could appear as shallow, false and mean, therefore shooting themselves in the foot.
posted by dozo at 6:57 AM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
This sounds like a lot of drama for a book club. Is it worth it? If not, think about joining an open book club made up of strangers, provided it's well-run. I moved to a new city recently and was looking to make friends, so I found a book club on meetup. Maybe I just got lucky, but it's been really great, and since we're all just there for the book club there's zero drama.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:02 AM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:02 AM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
instead of the group talking to you, they moved the entire or most of the group to another day? stay in Monday's group if you can stand it and make some adult friends.
posted by UltraD at 10:30 AM on August 10, 2010
posted by UltraD at 10:30 AM on August 10, 2010
here's a thread on trying to kick someone out a book club. i only post it here because it seems like changing venues or changing nights to remove someone from a book club is the go-to suggestion.
posted by nadawi at 1:28 PM on August 10, 2010
posted by nadawi at 1:28 PM on August 10, 2010
It is entirely possible that the people showing up on Monday night from Wed/Thurs were folks who didn't mind you so much. Are the people who pulled you aside to tell you bad things about yourself showing up on these nights?
At this point, they already gave you the boot and know you are showing up to Monday night club. If they want to avoid you, they can, and they already have two nights claimed without you anyway, so... hell, ignore 'em as best you can.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:47 PM on August 10, 2010
At this point, they already gave you the boot and know you are showing up to Monday night club. If they want to avoid you, they can, and they already have two nights claimed without you anyway, so... hell, ignore 'em as best you can.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:47 PM on August 10, 2010
I had a somewhat similar thing happen with a book group I was in--a woman we all liked very much in other settings sort of hijacked the group; we wanted (and we thought we made it clear we wanted) a very serious literary discussion about the books and she would not stop talking about her dating life and gossiping and making jokes. When we'd try to bring the subject back to the book she'd always say something along the lines of, "no, don't interrupt, this is important to me." It became very difficult to have any discussion of the books at all, but she got incredibly defensive if we tried to talk to her about it.
Because we liked her very much in other settings, we didn't want to hurt her, but more and more people stopped coming to the book club because of her and it just sort of dissolved.
I imagine if this woman joined a more social book club she'd be a delight--she's very funny, always has the latest gossip, etc.
It's very possible these people did/do like you, and that the Monday book club is the sort of book club where you fit better.
(and I still don't know what we could/should have done about our friend--obviously starting another club wouldn't have worked)
posted by smoakes at 1:52 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Because we liked her very much in other settings, we didn't want to hurt her, but more and more people stopped coming to the book club because of her and it just sort of dissolved.
I imagine if this woman joined a more social book club she'd be a delight--she's very funny, always has the latest gossip, etc.
It's very possible these people did/do like you, and that the Monday book club is the sort of book club where you fit better.
(and I still don't know what we could/should have done about our friend--obviously starting another club wouldn't have worked)
posted by smoakes at 1:52 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:09 AM on August 10, 2010 [12 favorites]