Even third wheels get tired sometimes
August 5, 2010 2:54 AM Subscribe
My sister and I just moved into a small studio apartment. (480sq ft) My sister's boyfriend wants to move in too, for at least three weeks. He's already here and has been here for a few days already. Weird relationship drama, family issues, dependence issues and no clue where I stand in all of this. Help?
My situation:
I just moved out of what was a fairly toxic roommate situation. I tried very hard to get along, but it boiled down to the fact my roommate couldn't stand living with a stranger, didn't want to get to know me at all beyond my name and occupation, and was an unreasonable control freak who offered to share the space and kitchen things, at the start. Then as her stress problems started worsening, she started obsessing over her kitchen stuff- she had to know where her plates and forks and whatnot were at all times, like they were her children or something. Getting my own set did not improve things, it just switched to her freaking out to other minor greviences. For example I got a coffee maker which I put on the kitchen counter. I just wanted to have coffee, but I might as well have put it in her room by how she reacted. Not to mention her freeloading boyfriend moving in. I moved out.
I'm still not entirely sure what happened and why, only that I never want to go through that again. But while that situation is thankfully past me, it has still been bothering me in a more general way, my inability to find out how to live the life I want (without infringing on others right to do the same of course).
Meanwhile, it seems almost unfair to bring this up, since it's no longer the huge issue it once was, but I am still recovering from a pretty severe social anxiety around strangers. I've made a lot of progress in the past year, to the point where I can now feel comfortable in public, I even enjoy going outside sometimes now- but I still find crowds and certain other things to be overwhelming, including feeling uncomfortable around anyone who isn't family who gets too close.
And now I'm at the point where the thought of having friends or more doesn't seem as impossible as it once did. At least that's what I would like...
So back to moving out. I decided I was sick of being treated like some kind of unwanted guest or someone to blame, in what should have been my place too. So I wanted to move out as soon as possible.
Moving out: my sister's situation
As it happened, my sister was going to take a break from college and get a part time job, so we figured we could move in together and have no roommates to worry about. As well hopefully it was going to be a break for her to figure out why college has been so difficult for her.
(Long story short- she finds the academic part easy, but then takes that as an opportunity to go beyond the requested assignments. Except she frequently challenges herself to the point where she can't handle it, breaks down and starts procrastinating under the pressure and ultimately turns in things extremely late and gets penalized. Sometimes they don't get turned in at all. Bad grades and confused/incredulous teachers result.)
Unfortunately even though I have pointed this out to her repeatedly how often she's done this, she finds it difficult to face her shortcomings; to honestly reflect about what causes her to do these things, and often worries about others instead, sometimes to the point of almost a self-blindness. And I guess that's fine(?), the consensus on askmefi anyway seems to be just to be supportive and not to try and solve other people's problems for them, so I made my position clear and I don't give my unwanted advice anymore. Or have I got that wrong?
He acts like he's 18 (or younger)
Her "boyfriend"- and I use that term loosely- is very earnest and well-meaning, but honestly very immature for his age. We're both mid-twenties, and he's only a year younger, but honestly maturity-wise I would put him around teenager. Until recently he didn't really even think about making other people (ie. my sister) pay for his rent and groceries, and has no income of his own. He can't drive and expects others to drive him around. He does dishes occasionally as a good will gesture, but doesn't see doing dishes as a obligation as a guest or even as a thing that needs to be done and expects to be praised for doing it.
He frequently makes a mess when he cooks and doesn't clean up after himself. And yet cooking for himself is preferable to the alternative. He can only cook three things, and if he's not prompted to go shopping or eat, he will just starve instead and be miserable. One time while they were visiting me some months ago, he woke us up at 5am to complain he was really hungry. Turns out he skipped dinner not because he wasn't hungry; but because he didn't like what we were having, and we had to get up in the middle of the night and go to mcdonald's. (we had food, but he refused to eat anything in the fridge. He didn't apologize for waking us, and instead complained about mcdonald's having switched over to their breakfast menu, which he doesn't like. I was too tired to care so I helped them find it and went back to sleep.)
(And he did it again today, refused the salmon for dinner "because he had fish once as a kid and didn't like it". Wouldn't eat leftovers either. He was hungry and got up in the middle of the night, ate cereal noisily in the middle of the room where his desk is, while I was trying to sleep. Yes I will be moving his desk.)
Similarly I have tried to tell him that I expect him to clean up after himself, but whenever I ask him or point it out he takes it very personally, like I'm just criticizing/pointing out his flaws or something, even though I have tried to be as gentle and friendly about it as possible. Likewise with the immaturity, in general he's just incredibly dependent on others. When I point this out to my sister she just makes excuses for him, that it's not his fault he's this way, or tells me to accommodate him.
To add insult to injury, he walks around shirtless and snores loudly, kinda smells and is socially clueless, which, along with his unfortunate hearing loss makes it very easy for him to ignore how much noise he makes. I am a light sleeper. He felt bad about waking me once, so he bought anti-snore strips, but honestly it just turns down the snoring a notch. But I didn't complain and bought ear plugs.
The Boyfriend's situation:
My sister has frequently told me about her boyfriend's toxic home situation. And it is terrible- a frequently drunk, bitter, dominating father, over-stressed cocaine-addicted mother, siblings who never left home and still ignore him anyway, all cramped in a run down tiny house where he didn't always get a room of his own and usually had to sleep on the couch. Overall a very neglected childhood in addition to trauma from developing serious hearing loss as a teenager. So yes, I do see that his situation isn't exactly great, and it's good for him to get out of his terrible household. But I don't see that I (we?) are somehow obligated to set things right by trying to make up for his terrible childhood by taking care of him when we both are dealing with problems of our own. At least I didn't think we were?
Unusual relationships
And speaking of relationships, I have real trouble seeing this as one. From the very beginning they weren't particularly good friends. She just felt sorry for him so she would try extra hard to include him in things, speak loudly and clearly into his good ear so he wouldn't feel left out. For a whole semester she would alternate between panic over her own situation with her classes- which she nearly failed many times- and panic that she wasn't providing enough support for her (at then) long distance friend who insisted on chatting with her online all the time- even during finals week- and yet still insisted she didn't care enough about him and he didn't hear enough from her, and he worried she was going to leave him. (even though they weren't dating then yet) Eventually he insisted that if she really cared about him that much they should be going out.
After a semester of that, she decided he should move in with her, so it would cut down on the driving between them (2.5 hrs drive one way) and at least she wouldn't have to worry about him being depressed, struggling with SAD and whatnot while she wasn't there to help him. She convinced his parents this was better for him, and hid it from ours who wouldn't approve. They moved in together into a tiny room in a tiny shared townhouse with a drama-tastic landlord and had a terrible time overall. They fought frequently (every week or so) over the fact that she was trying to work part-time and take classes simultaneously (and she was already struggling before the part-time job) and had to drive, shop, cook, clean, work and go to class while he stayed in the room all day depressed, hungry, bored and either sleeping or playing WoW.
Somehow, towards the end when they got most of the arguments resolved (somehow), she decided that they were in love; they were now boyfriend and girlfriend and she should now go even more than the already extra mile for him; even as she also honestly told me she has never even considered marrying him. (And she is the marrying kind- she wants to settle down someday with the right guy and maybe have a kid or two) I have never been in a relationship myself before due to my anxiety/isolation and my sister claims to be more wise to it, so often I stay out of these "conversations" although as far as I can tell most relationships (at least on askme) don't work this way. (Not to mention this is her first relationship.) She does care very deeply for him, but in a very one-sided way that I can't really explain. Sometimes it strikes me more as friends with benefits, other times more maternal. Other times it feels like the one she's trying to convince is herself. It's not romantic love by any yardstick I can find. And if it was would that be ok? I wouldn't know. I sure hope not.
Meanwhile, it's always been a sticking point for both of them that they are not equals- maturity-wise, career-wise and so on. So her solution was that she was going to teach him everything she knows and help him find a job. The boyfriend too, is convinced in this, that he just needs to get a job and all his problems will be solved. But from where I'm standing even if he gets one he has his work cut out for him- his troublesome family that alternately resents and then appreciates my sister's interventions, his lack of independence, his inability to handle pressure of any kind and his tendency to escape into WoW or sleep when the pressure gets to be too much... and so on. Having a job for a few years now, I am starting to appreciate it gave me such a great opportunity to improve my life, but getting a job was only the first step of many.
He decides to move in:
So down the line, her boyfriend's home situation worsens, he says he can't stand his father, they're driving him crazy and he wants to move in. This despite the fact that originally when I went looking for an apartment, he said he was going to stay home and take classes at the local community college. Nice of him to change his mind after I signed a 13 month lease on a studio. He pushes to move in that weekend. Sister agrees and tries to get me to agree too. Ends up being next weekend...
In addition to the above my sister kind of guilted me into this- that I haven't been supporting their relationship enough, that I didn't consider him the proper boyfriend he is (I stopped complaining about it, isn't that enough??) and implied that if her boyfriend's drunk father hits him, it would be my fault for not giving him anywhere to escape to. And can't I see how miserable he is, and it's such a small thing that we could do for him.
Sometimes it feels like she is almost implying that i'm just being selfish about my own overly sensitive feelings if I refuse to let her boyfriend move in, because he has it so much worse than I do. Or similarly, that she's so willing to give up her privacy (this is a studio after all) and she doesn't see why it should bother me when it doesn't bother her. Later on she did a 180 and told me that she wasn't going to force me to let him live here, but I still didn't really feel I could possibly refuse knowing how upset it would make her. And eventually I caved in and said ok, as long as he didn't bring all that furniture like he wanted to.
As well, I have no friends and depend only on my sister (even though I'm trying to change that) for support, so it's hard to say no to the closest person to you in the world. At one point earlier on this year my sister got really upset at me that I was "making her choose" between spending time with me and her boyfriend, and they both got so upset about not getting enough time together and it was a huge deal- so whenever they are together I step back and go find something else to do so she doesn't have to choose. She tells me this is how it is for relationships that people care so much about each other they want to spend all the time with each other, but meanwhile she's obsessed so much over him that she's been getting distanced from the rest of our family; they rarely hear from her, although she's always talking about how much she misses our older brother and his awesome wife, which whom they have a lot in common, she still doesn't talk with him anymore. When she does talk to family she frequently omits or twists things she knows they won't like to hear to make things sound better than they are, and when things go sour she doesn't talk to them at all and they are left out of the loop.
Meanwhile the boyfriend- he is a nice guy and maybe I would even consider him a friend sometimes- has been telling me that he's going to try so hard and everything will work out somehow and he wouldn't dream of imposing on us. But despite the fact he is supposed to be looking for a job he has just been playing WoW nonstop since he got here (<a week admittedly) and has been less than a stellar guest with the messiness and the not being responsible for himself bit. I felt like it wasn't my place to make sure he looks for a job so I told my sister about it. Whether either of them do will anything I have no idea. I know they will at least try half-heartedly eventually but that may not be good enough, given their track record(s) of promises, unfounded optimism, poor planning and whatnot.
All in all
I'm so confused. On one hand I feel like this should be my apartment. I am the only one with a full time job and I pay three-quarters of the rent, because my sister gets paid peanuts as an intern and her boyfriend doesn't have a job. I also buy all the groceries, cook and clean after everybody. Her boyfriend right now is trying to cook his own food and buy his own groceries, but he only has a little cash his parents gave him, which will assuredly run out soon. My sister has offered to pay for his groceries but that doesn't feel right either given how little she makes. But I feel like I would just be pulling rank to mention how much of the rent I pay and how much I do, and meanwhile my sister is always so stressed out and tired from her internship that it never feels like a good time to talk about it. Either she's tired and cranky and doesn't want to hear about it, or she's trying to relax and i'm ruining her day off. Even though she would never admit it, that's how she acts.
And yet I'm also the most inconvenienced by this. I'm the one responsible to make sure he is looked after and have to show him around the neighborhood, metro etc. since my sister is too busy to. I also work from home most days, so I'm around a lot, and he so far almost never leaves the apartment of his own volition unless asked to come with one of us. I'm the one who always feels awkward and having no where to escape their cuddling (though I volunteered to leave if they ever wanted some alone time, goodness knows)
I want to help them- ok mostly my sister who I love dearly- but this isn't exactly the kind of support I had in mind. Furthermore our parents are fairly old-fashioned and wouldn't approve, and since the boyfriend has yet to feel ready to meet them (if he ever will) we would have to hide him and his stuff if they ever visit- which they do every once in a while. Similarly, the lease I signed (just me) stipulates that only two people are allowed to live in this studio apartment. Although admittedly the landlord doesn't visit here without prior notice and the boyfriend isn't costing extra utilities (whole building's condo fee includes utilities for all residents, which is reflected in the rent)
In the meantime I have said that if he finds a job I expect him to move out asap and rent his own place. But I have my doubts as to his employability- he's quite smart when he tries, but is fairly lacking in skills/training, has very little work experience and hasn't graduated from college. To top that off, he's fairly clueless about how to apply for jobs even though my sister has been helping him when she can. And as well, at this point it seems guaranteed that if he doesn't find one, he will continue coming here to escape his father. It seems like him finding a job doesn't seem terribly likely at this point, and even if he did likely is just not going to solve the overall problem.
Most of the time it doesn't seem that bad, is what I tell myself, but this isn't really what I wanted. I wanted a quiet, safe place I could relax and be myself, but instead I usually find myself having to look after two other hapless people instead. I wanted to do things, make friends, but instead I find myself distracted with other people's problems that became mine somehow. Am I doing the right thing by going along with this quite frankly inconvenient and unaccommodating plan? Are my personal sacrifices helping anyone by doing this or am I just making things worse? And what about me?
(please be kind I bruise easily)
My situation:
I just moved out of what was a fairly toxic roommate situation. I tried very hard to get along, but it boiled down to the fact my roommate couldn't stand living with a stranger, didn't want to get to know me at all beyond my name and occupation, and was an unreasonable control freak who offered to share the space and kitchen things, at the start. Then as her stress problems started worsening, she started obsessing over her kitchen stuff- she had to know where her plates and forks and whatnot were at all times, like they were her children or something. Getting my own set did not improve things, it just switched to her freaking out to other minor greviences. For example I got a coffee maker which I put on the kitchen counter. I just wanted to have coffee, but I might as well have put it in her room by how she reacted. Not to mention her freeloading boyfriend moving in. I moved out.
I'm still not entirely sure what happened and why, only that I never want to go through that again. But while that situation is thankfully past me, it has still been bothering me in a more general way, my inability to find out how to live the life I want (without infringing on others right to do the same of course).
Meanwhile, it seems almost unfair to bring this up, since it's no longer the huge issue it once was, but I am still recovering from a pretty severe social anxiety around strangers. I've made a lot of progress in the past year, to the point where I can now feel comfortable in public, I even enjoy going outside sometimes now- but I still find crowds and certain other things to be overwhelming, including feeling uncomfortable around anyone who isn't family who gets too close.
And now I'm at the point where the thought of having friends or more doesn't seem as impossible as it once did. At least that's what I would like...
So back to moving out. I decided I was sick of being treated like some kind of unwanted guest or someone to blame, in what should have been my place too. So I wanted to move out as soon as possible.
Moving out: my sister's situation
As it happened, my sister was going to take a break from college and get a part time job, so we figured we could move in together and have no roommates to worry about. As well hopefully it was going to be a break for her to figure out why college has been so difficult for her.
(Long story short- she finds the academic part easy, but then takes that as an opportunity to go beyond the requested assignments. Except she frequently challenges herself to the point where she can't handle it, breaks down and starts procrastinating under the pressure and ultimately turns in things extremely late and gets penalized. Sometimes they don't get turned in at all. Bad grades and confused/incredulous teachers result.)
Unfortunately even though I have pointed this out to her repeatedly how often she's done this, she finds it difficult to face her shortcomings; to honestly reflect about what causes her to do these things, and often worries about others instead, sometimes to the point of almost a self-blindness. And I guess that's fine(?), the consensus on askmefi anyway seems to be just to be supportive and not to try and solve other people's problems for them, so I made my position clear and I don't give my unwanted advice anymore. Or have I got that wrong?
He acts like he's 18 (or younger)
Her "boyfriend"- and I use that term loosely- is very earnest and well-meaning, but honestly very immature for his age. We're both mid-twenties, and he's only a year younger, but honestly maturity-wise I would put him around teenager. Until recently he didn't really even think about making other people (ie. my sister) pay for his rent and groceries, and has no income of his own. He can't drive and expects others to drive him around. He does dishes occasionally as a good will gesture, but doesn't see doing dishes as a obligation as a guest or even as a thing that needs to be done and expects to be praised for doing it.
He frequently makes a mess when he cooks and doesn't clean up after himself. And yet cooking for himself is preferable to the alternative. He can only cook three things, and if he's not prompted to go shopping or eat, he will just starve instead and be miserable. One time while they were visiting me some months ago, he woke us up at 5am to complain he was really hungry. Turns out he skipped dinner not because he wasn't hungry; but because he didn't like what we were having, and we had to get up in the middle of the night and go to mcdonald's. (we had food, but he refused to eat anything in the fridge. He didn't apologize for waking us, and instead complained about mcdonald's having switched over to their breakfast menu, which he doesn't like. I was too tired to care so I helped them find it and went back to sleep.)
(And he did it again today, refused the salmon for dinner "because he had fish once as a kid and didn't like it". Wouldn't eat leftovers either. He was hungry and got up in the middle of the night, ate cereal noisily in the middle of the room where his desk is, while I was trying to sleep. Yes I will be moving his desk.)
Similarly I have tried to tell him that I expect him to clean up after himself, but whenever I ask him or point it out he takes it very personally, like I'm just criticizing/pointing out his flaws or something, even though I have tried to be as gentle and friendly about it as possible. Likewise with the immaturity, in general he's just incredibly dependent on others. When I point this out to my sister she just makes excuses for him, that it's not his fault he's this way, or tells me to accommodate him.
To add insult to injury, he walks around shirtless and snores loudly, kinda smells and is socially clueless, which, along with his unfortunate hearing loss makes it very easy for him to ignore how much noise he makes. I am a light sleeper. He felt bad about waking me once, so he bought anti-snore strips, but honestly it just turns down the snoring a notch. But I didn't complain and bought ear plugs.
The Boyfriend's situation:
My sister has frequently told me about her boyfriend's toxic home situation. And it is terrible- a frequently drunk, bitter, dominating father, over-stressed cocaine-addicted mother, siblings who never left home and still ignore him anyway, all cramped in a run down tiny house where he didn't always get a room of his own and usually had to sleep on the couch. Overall a very neglected childhood in addition to trauma from developing serious hearing loss as a teenager. So yes, I do see that his situation isn't exactly great, and it's good for him to get out of his terrible household. But I don't see that I (we?) are somehow obligated to set things right by trying to make up for his terrible childhood by taking care of him when we both are dealing with problems of our own. At least I didn't think we were?
Unusual relationships
And speaking of relationships, I have real trouble seeing this as one. From the very beginning they weren't particularly good friends. She just felt sorry for him so she would try extra hard to include him in things, speak loudly and clearly into his good ear so he wouldn't feel left out. For a whole semester she would alternate between panic over her own situation with her classes- which she nearly failed many times- and panic that she wasn't providing enough support for her (at then) long distance friend who insisted on chatting with her online all the time- even during finals week- and yet still insisted she didn't care enough about him and he didn't hear enough from her, and he worried she was going to leave him. (even though they weren't dating then yet) Eventually he insisted that if she really cared about him that much they should be going out.
After a semester of that, she decided he should move in with her, so it would cut down on the driving between them (2.5 hrs drive one way) and at least she wouldn't have to worry about him being depressed, struggling with SAD and whatnot while she wasn't there to help him. She convinced his parents this was better for him, and hid it from ours who wouldn't approve. They moved in together into a tiny room in a tiny shared townhouse with a drama-tastic landlord and had a terrible time overall. They fought frequently (every week or so) over the fact that she was trying to work part-time and take classes simultaneously (and she was already struggling before the part-time job) and had to drive, shop, cook, clean, work and go to class while he stayed in the room all day depressed, hungry, bored and either sleeping or playing WoW.
Somehow, towards the end when they got most of the arguments resolved (somehow), she decided that they were in love; they were now boyfriend and girlfriend and she should now go even more than the already extra mile for him; even as she also honestly told me she has never even considered marrying him. (And she is the marrying kind- she wants to settle down someday with the right guy and maybe have a kid or two) I have never been in a relationship myself before due to my anxiety/isolation and my sister claims to be more wise to it, so often I stay out of these "conversations" although as far as I can tell most relationships (at least on askme) don't work this way. (Not to mention this is her first relationship.) She does care very deeply for him, but in a very one-sided way that I can't really explain. Sometimes it strikes me more as friends with benefits, other times more maternal. Other times it feels like the one she's trying to convince is herself. It's not romantic love by any yardstick I can find. And if it was would that be ok? I wouldn't know. I sure hope not.
Meanwhile, it's always been a sticking point for both of them that they are not equals- maturity-wise, career-wise and so on. So her solution was that she was going to teach him everything she knows and help him find a job. The boyfriend too, is convinced in this, that he just needs to get a job and all his problems will be solved. But from where I'm standing even if he gets one he has his work cut out for him- his troublesome family that alternately resents and then appreciates my sister's interventions, his lack of independence, his inability to handle pressure of any kind and his tendency to escape into WoW or sleep when the pressure gets to be too much... and so on. Having a job for a few years now, I am starting to appreciate it gave me such a great opportunity to improve my life, but getting a job was only the first step of many.
He decides to move in:
So down the line, her boyfriend's home situation worsens, he says he can't stand his father, they're driving him crazy and he wants to move in. This despite the fact that originally when I went looking for an apartment, he said he was going to stay home and take classes at the local community college. Nice of him to change his mind after I signed a 13 month lease on a studio. He pushes to move in that weekend. Sister agrees and tries to get me to agree too. Ends up being next weekend...
In addition to the above my sister kind of guilted me into this- that I haven't been supporting their relationship enough, that I didn't consider him the proper boyfriend he is (I stopped complaining about it, isn't that enough??) and implied that if her boyfriend's drunk father hits him, it would be my fault for not giving him anywhere to escape to. And can't I see how miserable he is, and it's such a small thing that we could do for him.
Sometimes it feels like she is almost implying that i'm just being selfish about my own overly sensitive feelings if I refuse to let her boyfriend move in, because he has it so much worse than I do. Or similarly, that she's so willing to give up her privacy (this is a studio after all) and she doesn't see why it should bother me when it doesn't bother her. Later on she did a 180 and told me that she wasn't going to force me to let him live here, but I still didn't really feel I could possibly refuse knowing how upset it would make her. And eventually I caved in and said ok, as long as he didn't bring all that furniture like he wanted to.
As well, I have no friends and depend only on my sister (even though I'm trying to change that) for support, so it's hard to say no to the closest person to you in the world. At one point earlier on this year my sister got really upset at me that I was "making her choose" between spending time with me and her boyfriend, and they both got so upset about not getting enough time together and it was a huge deal- so whenever they are together I step back and go find something else to do so she doesn't have to choose. She tells me this is how it is for relationships that people care so much about each other they want to spend all the time with each other, but meanwhile she's obsessed so much over him that she's been getting distanced from the rest of our family; they rarely hear from her, although she's always talking about how much she misses our older brother and his awesome wife, which whom they have a lot in common, she still doesn't talk with him anymore. When she does talk to family she frequently omits or twists things she knows they won't like to hear to make things sound better than they are, and when things go sour she doesn't talk to them at all and they are left out of the loop.
Meanwhile the boyfriend- he is a nice guy and maybe I would even consider him a friend sometimes- has been telling me that he's going to try so hard and everything will work out somehow and he wouldn't dream of imposing on us. But despite the fact he is supposed to be looking for a job he has just been playing WoW nonstop since he got here (<a week admittedly) and has been less than a stellar guest with the messiness and the not being responsible for himself bit. I felt like it wasn't my place to make sure he looks for a job so I told my sister about it. Whether either of them do will anything I have no idea. I know they will at least try half-heartedly eventually but that may not be good enough, given their track record(s) of promises, unfounded optimism, poor planning and whatnot.
All in all
I'm so confused. On one hand I feel like this should be my apartment. I am the only one with a full time job and I pay three-quarters of the rent, because my sister gets paid peanuts as an intern and her boyfriend doesn't have a job. I also buy all the groceries, cook and clean after everybody. Her boyfriend right now is trying to cook his own food and buy his own groceries, but he only has a little cash his parents gave him, which will assuredly run out soon. My sister has offered to pay for his groceries but that doesn't feel right either given how little she makes. But I feel like I would just be pulling rank to mention how much of the rent I pay and how much I do, and meanwhile my sister is always so stressed out and tired from her internship that it never feels like a good time to talk about it. Either she's tired and cranky and doesn't want to hear about it, or she's trying to relax and i'm ruining her day off. Even though she would never admit it, that's how she acts.
And yet I'm also the most inconvenienced by this. I'm the one responsible to make sure he is looked after and have to show him around the neighborhood, metro etc. since my sister is too busy to. I also work from home most days, so I'm around a lot, and he so far almost never leaves the apartment of his own volition unless asked to come with one of us. I'm the one who always feels awkward and having no where to escape their cuddling (though I volunteered to leave if they ever wanted some alone time, goodness knows)
I want to help them- ok mostly my sister who I love dearly- but this isn't exactly the kind of support I had in mind. Furthermore our parents are fairly old-fashioned and wouldn't approve, and since the boyfriend has yet to feel ready to meet them (if he ever will) we would have to hide him and his stuff if they ever visit- which they do every once in a while. Similarly, the lease I signed (just me) stipulates that only two people are allowed to live in this studio apartment. Although admittedly the landlord doesn't visit here without prior notice and the boyfriend isn't costing extra utilities (whole building's condo fee includes utilities for all residents, which is reflected in the rent)
In the meantime I have said that if he finds a job I expect him to move out asap and rent his own place. But I have my doubts as to his employability- he's quite smart when he tries, but is fairly lacking in skills/training, has very little work experience and hasn't graduated from college. To top that off, he's fairly clueless about how to apply for jobs even though my sister has been helping him when she can. And as well, at this point it seems guaranteed that if he doesn't find one, he will continue coming here to escape his father. It seems like him finding a job doesn't seem terribly likely at this point, and even if he did likely is just not going to solve the overall problem.
Most of the time it doesn't seem that bad, is what I tell myself, but this isn't really what I wanted. I wanted a quiet, safe place I could relax and be myself, but instead I usually find myself having to look after two other hapless people instead. I wanted to do things, make friends, but instead I find myself distracted with other people's problems that became mine somehow. Am I doing the right thing by going along with this quite frankly inconvenient and unaccommodating plan? Are my personal sacrifices helping anyone by doing this or am I just making things worse? And what about me?
(please be kind I bruise easily)
Um, TLDR, but I scanned most of it.
The easiest solution appears to me is to give your sister 30 days notice of your intent to move. Whether you follow through on it is up to you, but faced with caring for the dipshit alone may shake your sister into moving his ass out. Right now you're providing for both of them to remain in this sitch. Removing yourself would change that dynamic, no?
And forget about the blood-is-thicker-than-water thought process, because your sister has already tossed that out the window to make room for Mr. Skeeze.
Good luck to you! Part of your healing process means growing both a thicker skin and a backbone, snowflake. Don't let this world eat you alive; it's OK to be mean when you have to take care of yourself.
posted by kidelo at 3:31 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
The easiest solution appears to me is to give your sister 30 days notice of your intent to move. Whether you follow through on it is up to you, but faced with caring for the dipshit alone may shake your sister into moving his ass out. Right now you're providing for both of them to remain in this sitch. Removing yourself would change that dynamic, no?
And forget about the blood-is-thicker-than-water thought process, because your sister has already tossed that out the window to make room for Mr. Skeeze.
Good luck to you! Part of your healing process means growing both a thicker skin and a backbone, snowflake. Don't let this world eat you alive; it's OK to be mean when you have to take care of yourself.
posted by kidelo at 3:31 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
Bloody hell.
Could you pay 100% of the rent instead of three-quarters?
Could you find a comparable place and move there and pay 100% of the rent there, instead of confrontationally asking your sister and her shlemiel boyfriend to leave?
posted by tel3path at 3:33 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
Could you pay 100% of the rent instead of three-quarters?
Could you find a comparable place and move there and pay 100% of the rent there, instead of confrontationally asking your sister and her shlemiel boyfriend to leave?
posted by tel3path at 3:33 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Wow. Wow. Wow. (15 paragraphs later)
Ok, all unnecessary details later, you decided to move in with your sister and she brought in a boyfriend that you don't want to live with.
All other things aside, isn't this it? You don't like that the boyfriend is there. So, talk to your sister and tell her that this isn't what you wanted. All of this other stuff - the cereal eating, the WOW, your parent's imagined disapproval is all rationalizations to back up the fact that you only wanted to live with your sister. Talk to her, be clear about what you want and don't want, and drop the rest of the drama. You're not going to help your case by padding it this way. You are allowed to have a preference for who you want to live with, but stop making this into something it's not. (jeebus, that was painful....just stop with the drama, ok?)
posted by The Light Fantastic at 3:34 AM on August 5, 2010 [15 favorites]
Ok, all unnecessary details later, you decided to move in with your sister and she brought in a boyfriend that you don't want to live with.
All other things aside, isn't this it? You don't like that the boyfriend is there. So, talk to your sister and tell her that this isn't what you wanted. All of this other stuff - the cereal eating, the WOW, your parent's imagined disapproval is all rationalizations to back up the fact that you only wanted to live with your sister. Talk to her, be clear about what you want and don't want, and drop the rest of the drama. You're not going to help your case by padding it this way. You are allowed to have a preference for who you want to live with, but stop making this into something it's not. (jeebus, that was painful....just stop with the drama, ok?)
posted by The Light Fantastic at 3:34 AM on August 5, 2010 [15 favorites]
Best answer: I'm going to try to be kind. I wrote a comment and then waited for someone else to go first so I could calm down a bit.
You need to kick him out. Now. Tonight! He is never going to learn to be self-sufficient until he has to. It's up to your sister if she goes with him or not. She can't support him on an intern wage? Well, maybe he and she should realise that he's in his mid-20's! He is perfectly able to support himself, one way or another. If he can afford WoW (no doubt on your internet connection), he can afford to job-search, or spend a few bucks on bus tickets to find his own goddamned way around the neighbourhood without someone holding his hand and leading the way.
My newly-ex boyfriend lives at home with mum and dad. They cook for him, clean for him, hell, they even bought him a heater because he was too pathetic to do that for himself despite the -7 degrees Celsius record low we've had this winter. He's 47 years old. His younger brother is about 42, and also moved back home to take advantage of mum and dad. And they stay at home because moving out, being responsible, signing a lease, paying rent and electricity and water, is all too hard. Why do it when someone else does it for you? (This is the future of your sisters boyfriend, I kid you not.)
I'm up in arms this week about adults being babied by other adults, thus ensuring that they never have to take responsibility for themselves.
I understand that you love your sister, but you are being used by both of them. Shove the baby bird out of the nest, and let it sink or swim... regardless, it's not your fault. You were not put on this earth to makeup for his lousy father. You went above and beyond the call of duty already. Your sister needs a lesson in being a responsible adult too, if she thinks his bludging is reasonable.
Apologies for my mixed metaphors (and slightly incandescent rage at bludgers).
posted by malibustacey9999 at 3:37 AM on August 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
You need to kick him out. Now. Tonight! He is never going to learn to be self-sufficient until he has to. It's up to your sister if she goes with him or not. She can't support him on an intern wage? Well, maybe he and she should realise that he's in his mid-20's! He is perfectly able to support himself, one way or another. If he can afford WoW (no doubt on your internet connection), he can afford to job-search, or spend a few bucks on bus tickets to find his own goddamned way around the neighbourhood without someone holding his hand and leading the way.
My newly-ex boyfriend lives at home with mum and dad. They cook for him, clean for him, hell, they even bought him a heater because he was too pathetic to do that for himself despite the -7 degrees Celsius record low we've had this winter. He's 47 years old. His younger brother is about 42, and also moved back home to take advantage of mum and dad. And they stay at home because moving out, being responsible, signing a lease, paying rent and electricity and water, is all too hard. Why do it when someone else does it for you? (This is the future of your sisters boyfriend, I kid you not.)
I'm up in arms this week about adults being babied by other adults, thus ensuring that they never have to take responsibility for themselves.
I understand that you love your sister, but you are being used by both of them. Shove the baby bird out of the nest, and let it sink or swim... regardless, it's not your fault. You were not put on this earth to makeup for his lousy father. You went above and beyond the call of duty already. Your sister needs a lesson in being a responsible adult too, if she thinks his bludging is reasonable.
Apologies for my mixed metaphors (and slightly incandescent rage at bludgers).
posted by malibustacey9999 at 3:37 AM on August 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I understand why you felt the need to put in so much detail: partly you don't seem to feel justified, and partly you're young enough that this kind of conflict is all new to you and you're still trying to understand it.
However, it will help you in any conflict if you can reduce the conflict to its bare essentials. You want peace and quiet, your sister is making that impossible by adding an extra roommate you didn't sign up for.
posted by tel3path at 3:40 AM on August 5, 2010 [11 favorites]
However, it will help you in any conflict if you can reduce the conflict to its bare essentials. You want peace and quiet, your sister is making that impossible by adding an extra roommate you didn't sign up for.
posted by tel3path at 3:40 AM on August 5, 2010 [11 favorites]
Best answer: You get to control your behavior. You get to say what you will and won't put up with. You don't, however, get to dictate how other people feel about your choices.
You have every right to tell your sister that her boyfriend can not live there, period. The lease is a valid reason. Your preference is also a valid reason.
She will not like it. The boyfriend will not like it. But their not liking it is their problem, not yours. You have to let it be their problem. You have to be okay with other people not liking what you do sometimes; if you can't handle that then they get to control you, which is what is happening now.
All this stuff about your previous living situation, your sister's academic difficulties, her boyfriend's crappy childhood, etc., etc., etc. is just a fog of distractions and irrelevant details that obscure your ability to see the situation for what it is. You're being taken advantage of, plain and simple. Not because there's anything evil about your sister or her boyfriend, but because you're disinclined to enforce your own personal boundaries. This is a personal vulnerability that you need to watch out for. You don't "find" yourself taking care of other people instead of living the life you hoped for; you CHOOSE to do this, however subconsciously. Work on lessening that tendency. It will not be comfortable at first, but you can and should introduce "no" into your vocabulary, even when speaking to people you love.
posted by jon1270 at 3:42 AM on August 5, 2010 [21 favorites]
You have every right to tell your sister that her boyfriend can not live there, period. The lease is a valid reason. Your preference is also a valid reason.
She will not like it. The boyfriend will not like it. But their not liking it is their problem, not yours. You have to let it be their problem. You have to be okay with other people not liking what you do sometimes; if you can't handle that then they get to control you, which is what is happening now.
All this stuff about your previous living situation, your sister's academic difficulties, her boyfriend's crappy childhood, etc., etc., etc. is just a fog of distractions and irrelevant details that obscure your ability to see the situation for what it is. You're being taken advantage of, plain and simple. Not because there's anything evil about your sister or her boyfriend, but because you're disinclined to enforce your own personal boundaries. This is a personal vulnerability that you need to watch out for. You don't "find" yourself taking care of other people instead of living the life you hoped for; you CHOOSE to do this, however subconsciously. Work on lessening that tendency. It will not be comfortable at first, but you can and should introduce "no" into your vocabulary, even when speaking to people you love.
posted by jon1270 at 3:42 AM on August 5, 2010 [21 favorites]
Best answer: Your answer is right there in the lease: "only two people are allowed to live in this studio apartment." You've signed the lease and agreed to this condition, and he can't live there. Either your sister has to find another place to live with him and you find a different roommate, or you and your sister live there as planned and the boyfriend gets a job and finds his own place. Him getting a job and staying with you is not an option.
Or, if you can transfer the lease to your sister, she and he can stay there, and you find a new place. These are your only choices.
Oh, and this is also the only way to save your sanity, coincidentally. Even if the guy was a gourmet chef with a great job, a car, and perfect manners — you never chose to live with him. You don't have to live with this person; it's your right. You can say, "No."
posted by taz at 4:01 AM on August 5, 2010 [13 favorites]
Or, if you can transfer the lease to your sister, she and he can stay there, and you find a new place. These are your only choices.
Oh, and this is also the only way to save your sanity, coincidentally. Even if the guy was a gourmet chef with a great job, a car, and perfect manners — you never chose to live with him. You don't have to live with this person; it's your right. You can say, "No."
posted by taz at 4:01 AM on August 5, 2010 [13 favorites]
Best answer: Your sister and her boyfriend are emotionally manipulating you. They've made you feel guilty and responsible for the welfare and happiness of both of them, at the expense of your own well-being. This is shitty and you are being taken advantage of. You are not wrong or selfish for wanting your privacy and for not wanting to play mommy to a couple of overgrown, immature brats.
The boyfriend's problems are HIS problems, not yours. Nor are you responsible for tiptoeing around your sister's "problems" with money and time and "exhaustion." If she wants to mother this guy that is her business, but she needs to do it somewhere other than the place in which you pay 3/4 of the rent.
Are you able to pay the full rent on your place? If so, you should tell your sister that the boyfriend needs to leave, or BOTH of them need to get the fuck out.
If you are not able to afford the place on your own, then you need to be firm with your sister that the boyfriend goes. I know that confrontation sucks, particularly when these two will pull out all the stops to make you feel guilty, but otherwise nothing is going to change, I guarantee it. People who mooch and manipulate are not interested in what is fair to you, or how uncomfortable they are making you. They will use charm, guilt, tears, anger... whatever they can find that works on you... anything it takes to get you to keep on giving them what they want.
Your half-hearted attempts at protesting are not having any effect on them. You can't negotiate or compromise with moochers because they don't understand fairness and integrity, they only understand that they want what they want and they think you should give it to them because you can. This is bullshit.
Tell your sister that he can't stay past this weekend because of the lease. Threaten to tell your parents what is going on, if you think they would support your position and not hers.
Your sister is not your friend right now. I know it won't feel good to lose her as a companion if that is what happens, but you can't let her take advantage of you because you think you need her. That is exactly how abusive relationships work. And no, your personal sacrifices are not helping them at all. You are just enabling them to keep behaving irresponsibly. They won't get their shit together until they have to, and as long as you are willing to take up all their slack they don't have to.
Get a therapist if you don't have one already and work on your social anxiety. Spend time with other family members for companionship for awhile until you are ready to go out in the world and meet new people. I know it is easier said than done, but if you don't either lay down the law with your sister or get her the hell out of your apartment, this situation will go on and on. Trust me on this, I've been in a similar situation more than once. (It might help to know that nobody I ever threw out died in a gutter like I feared. They all figured something else out in short order.)
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 4:25 AM on August 5, 2010 [6 favorites]
The boyfriend's problems are HIS problems, not yours. Nor are you responsible for tiptoeing around your sister's "problems" with money and time and "exhaustion." If she wants to mother this guy that is her business, but she needs to do it somewhere other than the place in which you pay 3/4 of the rent.
Are you able to pay the full rent on your place? If so, you should tell your sister that the boyfriend needs to leave, or BOTH of them need to get the fuck out.
If you are not able to afford the place on your own, then you need to be firm with your sister that the boyfriend goes. I know that confrontation sucks, particularly when these two will pull out all the stops to make you feel guilty, but otherwise nothing is going to change, I guarantee it. People who mooch and manipulate are not interested in what is fair to you, or how uncomfortable they are making you. They will use charm, guilt, tears, anger... whatever they can find that works on you... anything it takes to get you to keep on giving them what they want.
Your half-hearted attempts at protesting are not having any effect on them. You can't negotiate or compromise with moochers because they don't understand fairness and integrity, they only understand that they want what they want and they think you should give it to them because you can. This is bullshit.
Tell your sister that he can't stay past this weekend because of the lease. Threaten to tell your parents what is going on, if you think they would support your position and not hers.
Your sister is not your friend right now. I know it won't feel good to lose her as a companion if that is what happens, but you can't let her take advantage of you because you think you need her. That is exactly how abusive relationships work. And no, your personal sacrifices are not helping them at all. You are just enabling them to keep behaving irresponsibly. They won't get their shit together until they have to, and as long as you are willing to take up all their slack they don't have to.
Get a therapist if you don't have one already and work on your social anxiety. Spend time with other family members for companionship for awhile until you are ready to go out in the world and meet new people. I know it is easier said than done, but if you don't either lay down the law with your sister or get her the hell out of your apartment, this situation will go on and on. Trust me on this, I've been in a similar situation more than once. (It might help to know that nobody I ever threw out died in a gutter like I feared. They all figured something else out in short order.)
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 4:25 AM on August 5, 2010 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I wonder what your upbringing was like, since both you and your sister have issues with boundaries. Were you often asked to sacrifice who you are and what you really want, to please or appease other people and to conform to their expectations and wishes?
Anyway, you clearly find it difficult to defend your boundaries in a way that most people would find 100% justifiable. The situation you describe is not a healthy one. The way you describe it is symptomatic: it seems to me like you take've on other people's burdens, get sucked into their problems, are sacrificing your own well-being, getting overwhelmed and anxious and losing sight of what is reasonable and normal.
Here, you've been asked to put up with things you shouldn't be expected to. You have agreed to things you don't like (and to a living situation most people wouldn't be willing or even able to put up with). You seem to struggle with the feeling that this is your duty somehow. It's not. Your first and foremost responsibility is to yourself, to make sure you are healthy and happy in the home you've made for yourself (and are paying for!).
Your sister has her own set of issues; her relationship with her BF is problematic at best. But as much as you love her (and as difficult as I suspect this is for you to fully internalize), it is her problem - except for the fact that she has turned it into yours by crossing your boundaries in a huge way, forcing you to take it on, too.
Just in case you need to hear it from one more person: it's ok for you to want this boyfriend out of your studio. Really, it is. It doesn't make you a bad person. Your needs are just as important as others'. His home situation sounds terrible, but he'll need to grow up and learn to take care of himself and he won't get there if other people keep solving his problems for him. (If you find yourself feeling overwhelmed by guilt, remind yourself that mooching off on others is a terrible life strategy for him to adopt, and absolutely detrimental in the long run. It is also not good for your sister to learn that it's ok for her to disregard your boundaries. You are doing neither of them a service by acquiescing to the way things are going now.)
Look, it would be ideal if you could state things clearly and demand your sister and her BF respect your completely resonable needs, the way other posters have suggested - it's a crucial skill you will need to learn the sooner the better - but I have to wonder if you're at that stage yet, with all the guilt and (perhaps unwitting) manipulation that tends to accompany emotional enmeshments such as this. Do try. If that doesn't work, if you don't have the courage and self-respect to stick to your guns, you could tell them you heard that word got to your landlord that there's a third person living in your studio and he needs to be gone ASAP or you'll all be in big trouble. (Which is likely to happen sooner or later anyway, so really, the lie is a white one.)
posted by sively at 5:27 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
Anyway, you clearly find it difficult to defend your boundaries in a way that most people would find 100% justifiable. The situation you describe is not a healthy one. The way you describe it is symptomatic: it seems to me like you take've on other people's burdens, get sucked into their problems, are sacrificing your own well-being, getting overwhelmed and anxious and losing sight of what is reasonable and normal.
Here, you've been asked to put up with things you shouldn't be expected to. You have agreed to things you don't like (and to a living situation most people wouldn't be willing or even able to put up with). You seem to struggle with the feeling that this is your duty somehow. It's not. Your first and foremost responsibility is to yourself, to make sure you are healthy and happy in the home you've made for yourself (and are paying for!).
Your sister has her own set of issues; her relationship with her BF is problematic at best. But as much as you love her (and as difficult as I suspect this is for you to fully internalize), it is her problem - except for the fact that she has turned it into yours by crossing your boundaries in a huge way, forcing you to take it on, too.
Just in case you need to hear it from one more person: it's ok for you to want this boyfriend out of your studio. Really, it is. It doesn't make you a bad person. Your needs are just as important as others'. His home situation sounds terrible, but he'll need to grow up and learn to take care of himself and he won't get there if other people keep solving his problems for him. (If you find yourself feeling overwhelmed by guilt, remind yourself that mooching off on others is a terrible life strategy for him to adopt, and absolutely detrimental in the long run. It is also not good for your sister to learn that it's ok for her to disregard your boundaries. You are doing neither of them a service by acquiescing to the way things are going now.)
Look, it would be ideal if you could state things clearly and demand your sister and her BF respect your completely resonable needs, the way other posters have suggested - it's a crucial skill you will need to learn the sooner the better - but I have to wonder if you're at that stage yet, with all the guilt and (perhaps unwitting) manipulation that tends to accompany emotional enmeshments such as this. Do try. If that doesn't work, if you don't have the courage and self-respect to stick to your guns, you could tell them you heard that word got to your landlord that there's a third person living in your studio and he needs to be gone ASAP or you'll all be in big trouble. (Which is likely to happen sooner or later anyway, so really, the lie is a white one.)
posted by sively at 5:27 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
I'll be short, because the advice you've gotten above me is great.
2 people on the lease means 2 on the lease. The boyfriend makes 3. Somebody has to get out. The obvious choice is him, since he's not on the lease. The easiest choice is probably you leaving since you'd be able to find a new place.
This might be a dick move, but it could be a good idea to involve the landlord. This could just be threatening to talk to the landlord about getting him out, but if the wrong people find out about 3 people living there then all 3 of you will need to find a new place to live.
posted by theichibun at 5:46 AM on August 5, 2010
2 people on the lease means 2 on the lease. The boyfriend makes 3. Somebody has to get out. The obvious choice is him, since he's not on the lease. The easiest choice is probably you leaving since you'd be able to find a new place.
This might be a dick move, but it could be a good idea to involve the landlord. This could just be threatening to talk to the landlord about getting him out, but if the wrong people find out about 3 people living there then all 3 of you will need to find a new place to live.
posted by theichibun at 5:46 AM on August 5, 2010
I'll echo the above advice but phrase it a little differently.
Are you really ready, at 25, to be the parent of a spoiled child?
Is your sister?
No?
Because that's what the boyfriend is. A spoiled child who hasn't matured at all in maybe 15 years, because his parents never made him take on any of the responsibilities or consequences of being an adult.
Here's the kicker: if you want him to behave like an adult, you're going to have to treat him like a child and make him grow up, because he won't do it on his own.
So I ask you again. Do you want to be the parent of a spoiled child?
No?
Try first: kick him out based on the lease. If your sister refuses to side with you on this: you have to move out, based on the lease.
It's not your fault, see. You can blame the lease. Two people is not three people. Someone has to go.
Do you want to be a parent?
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:54 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Are you really ready, at 25, to be the parent of a spoiled child?
Is your sister?
No?
Because that's what the boyfriend is. A spoiled child who hasn't matured at all in maybe 15 years, because his parents never made him take on any of the responsibilities or consequences of being an adult.
Here's the kicker: if you want him to behave like an adult, you're going to have to treat him like a child and make him grow up, because he won't do it on his own.
So I ask you again. Do you want to be the parent of a spoiled child?
No?
Try first: kick him out based on the lease. If your sister refuses to side with you on this: you have to move out, based on the lease.
It's not your fault, see. You can blame the lease. Two people is not three people. Someone has to go.
Do you want to be a parent?
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:54 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Let me get this straight. You pay 75% of the rent and often buy all the groceries. This is a 480sqft studio apartment that has three people in it when the lease allows for 2. The third person does not and cannot contribute in anyway. You are very uncomfortable around strangers or anyone who is not family. If you continue to let him live there you will be asked to continue to lie or cover up for your sister with your family. You often work from home, he does not leave home without prodding. Or he needs trip to McDonalds.
Advice? This fellow, despite his terrible home life needs to leave. Let him find another couch to crash on. Also, your sister has no resepct for you and needs to do some soul searching as to who she is and wants to be in this world.
You two best courses of action involve getting outside people to do the dirty work for you. One obvious choice is the landlord. The other is your family/father/mother. Sounds like if you let them know your struggles with this, they would send his ass to the street faster than you can say Big Mac.
Good luck.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 6:14 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
Advice? This fellow, despite his terrible home life needs to leave. Let him find another couch to crash on. Also, your sister has no resepct for you and needs to do some soul searching as to who she is and wants to be in this world.
You two best courses of action involve getting outside people to do the dirty work for you. One obvious choice is the landlord. The other is your family/father/mother. Sounds like if you let them know your struggles with this, they would send his ass to the street faster than you can say Big Mac.
Good luck.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 6:14 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
If you want to keep the drama down to a minimum, the easiest solution is for you to move. If your sister and her bf can't keep the lease, that's their problem. You may be out your security deposit if you break the lease, but that's a small price to pay for your sanity.
You absolutely can't control other people's actions and even if you tell him to, the bf may not move in which case you're stuck with him in your apartment and in addition to the conflicts you already have - he and your sister will both be pissed. No matter how you frame it, your sister may rationalize him staying for whatever reason "just for a few more days!" Those few more days will probably never end. And if they do, your sister will be mad. There's no way around that. She will feel angry and betrayed that you wouldn't accommodate her boyfriend, who she views as depending on her and coming part and parcel with her as a "package deal." That's how you have to view it at this point - if she's there, so's he.
Find a new place that you can afford on your own. I know it's awful to do, and your social anxiety may make it difficult if it involves finding a new roommate, but you already know you can't live in this situation indefinitely, which is what you're facing if you don't move.
These sort of things shape your twenties, unfortunately. It's a time where you largely find out how you want your life to look by trial and error and realizing what doesn't work. So living with your sister didn't work - that's ok, it's not the end of the world. Try something else.
(I say this as someone at the tail end of my twenties now and oh man, the past two years have been infinitely easier than the previous six were.)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:22 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
You absolutely can't control other people's actions and even if you tell him to, the bf may not move in which case you're stuck with him in your apartment and in addition to the conflicts you already have - he and your sister will both be pissed. No matter how you frame it, your sister may rationalize him staying for whatever reason "just for a few more days!" Those few more days will probably never end. And if they do, your sister will be mad. There's no way around that. She will feel angry and betrayed that you wouldn't accommodate her boyfriend, who she views as depending on her and coming part and parcel with her as a "package deal." That's how you have to view it at this point - if she's there, so's he.
Find a new place that you can afford on your own. I know it's awful to do, and your social anxiety may make it difficult if it involves finding a new roommate, but you already know you can't live in this situation indefinitely, which is what you're facing if you don't move.
These sort of things shape your twenties, unfortunately. It's a time where you largely find out how you want your life to look by trial and error and realizing what doesn't work. So living with your sister didn't work - that's ok, it's not the end of the world. Try something else.
(I say this as someone at the tail end of my twenties now and oh man, the past two years have been infinitely easier than the previous six were.)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:22 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Your description makes me think of a couple people I know who have dysfunctional relationships with their families. They are older siblings of troubled, fragile, or foolish younger siblings and they end up taking a parenting role because it's the easiest way to deal with the requests their siblings make (and, significantly, that their other relatives make on their siblings' behalf). If these older siblings engaged with their younger siblings as adults, they'd have to say, "We're both too old for this nonsense: I'm not paying your rent/letting you borrow my car/providing free child care anymore." And if they did that, there would be fallout because it would depart from the family norm (even though it would also be a healthy thing to do). It can be very frustrating to talk to people in your situation because, at the same time as your sister is being utterly unreasonable by adult standards, you're not doing anything to insist that she act like an adult.
I think you need to get to a place, mentally, where if an adult wakes you at 5am to complain that he's hungry, you say, "I'm sleeping right now, please don't bother me," rather than driving him to McDonalds and then bemoaning the fact that you "had" to go. In other words, respond to adults as if they are adults, even if they're acting immature. Do not take responsibility for your sister's boyfriend's hunger. Do not take responsibility for your sister's bad decisions. Only take responsibility for your own actions and feelings. If you don't want to live with your sister's boyfriend, sit your sister down and tell her you're not going to live with him. Don't try to persuade her that she shouldn't want him to live there, simply tell her it's not something you're willing to do and explain that you and she need to decide if you're moving out while she and he take over the lease or if he's just not moving in and the two of you will continue living together. It won't be an easy conversation, and it'll be impossible if you can't think of her as an adult, but I think it's your best option for getting what you want.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:35 AM on August 5, 2010 [11 favorites]
I think you need to get to a place, mentally, where if an adult wakes you at 5am to complain that he's hungry, you say, "I'm sleeping right now, please don't bother me," rather than driving him to McDonalds and then bemoaning the fact that you "had" to go. In other words, respond to adults as if they are adults, even if they're acting immature. Do not take responsibility for your sister's boyfriend's hunger. Do not take responsibility for your sister's bad decisions. Only take responsibility for your own actions and feelings. If you don't want to live with your sister's boyfriend, sit your sister down and tell her you're not going to live with him. Don't try to persuade her that she shouldn't want him to live there, simply tell her it's not something you're willing to do and explain that you and she need to decide if you're moving out while she and he take over the lease or if he's just not moving in and the two of you will continue living together. It won't be an easy conversation, and it'll be impossible if you can't think of her as an adult, but I think it's your best option for getting what you want.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:35 AM on August 5, 2010 [11 favorites]
As others have said, simple is better.
Do you want to live with your sister? If so you are going to have to accept boyfriend as a permanent or frequent roommate.
I'd say to sister - you guys can take over this lease, but I am out.
posted by k8t at 6:46 AM on August 5, 2010
Do you want to live with your sister? If so you are going to have to accept boyfriend as a permanent or frequent roommate.
I'd say to sister - you guys can take over this lease, but I am out.
posted by k8t at 6:46 AM on August 5, 2010
Best answer: It seems to me that you're caught by the idea that if you say no, your sister will think you don't love and support her. You need to know that that is not the case, and she will learn that, too although it may be painful.
Tell your sister "You and I agreed to move in together in a two-person studio. You're asking me to now also let Ted move in. That isn't going to work because he isn't my boyfriend and I don't want to live with him or be responsible for him or for messing up our lease."
Then give her a choice:
1. You move out, Ted moves in. Let her deal with the consequences of that.
2. She and Ted do not move in together and Ted makes other arrangements.
Those are the only choices.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:59 AM on August 5, 2010 [7 favorites]
Tell your sister "You and I agreed to move in together in a two-person studio. You're asking me to now also let Ted move in. That isn't going to work because he isn't my boyfriend and I don't want to live with him or be responsible for him or for messing up our lease."
Then give her a choice:
1. You move out, Ted moves in. Let her deal with the consequences of that.
2. She and Ted do not move in together and Ted makes other arrangements.
Those are the only choices.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:59 AM on August 5, 2010 [7 favorites]
Tell the BF to leave, and follow through by making him leave. No matter what anyone ways, your name is on the lease so you make the decisions. If there seems like there is going to be a long, drawn-out argument, just call the police. The police will remove anyone who's name isn't on the lease from the dwelling. Have a copy of the lease on hand. Remind the BF that there is nothing he can do except leave. He isn't on the lease and the lease doesn't permit him to remain.
posted by fuq at 7:17 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by fuq at 7:17 AM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I would have a few drinks (I don't like confrontations - although if it were my sister, it wouldn't matter)and then tell them both they need to leave.
posted by KogeLiz at 7:23 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by KogeLiz at 7:23 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Sister agrees and tries to get me to agree too.
How did she get you to agree? You really need to become more assertive. Your sister knows how to get you to do what she wants. Stop being her doormat, tell her the bf must go. This is a toxic situation and you don't deserve this.
posted by iconomy at 7:27 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
How did she get you to agree? You really need to become more assertive. Your sister knows how to get you to do what she wants. Stop being her doormat, tell her the bf must go. This is a toxic situation and you don't deserve this.
posted by iconomy at 7:27 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Tell your sister that, after living with the boyfriend for a week, and considering what the lease says, he has to move out. You completely understand if your sister chooses to move with him, though you'd love her to stay with you. She can also stay with you until she finds another place, but the boyfriend has to move out, which means that he has to return the keys, can only come over when your sister is there, and has to be out by (whatever time). There's just not enough space and you want more quiet and privacy than 3 people in a studio can afford. Just keep repeating that he has to move out, it's unfortunate things didn't work out the way everyone wanted them to, but he has to move out.
posted by jeather at 7:43 AM on August 5, 2010
posted by jeather at 7:43 AM on August 5, 2010
Best answer: You clearly have a problem telling people no. Therapy would probably be helpful to you so you can learn to set more boundaries. For example, if someone wakes you at 5 am and asks you to take them to McDonalds, unless you want to go to McDonalds, too, tell them hell no, you're not waking up at 5 am to drive someone to McDonalds because they were too picky to eat dinner and too lazy to make their own.
Start being more selfish. Put your needs and wants first, ahead of moochers and people who want to treat you like a doormat.
Also, kick out the boyfriend today. It's sad that his life was so bad, but that's what social services are for. You're not welfare or public housing or a counselor to take care of the people who had shitty parents. It's too much for one person with their own problems to do.
posted by elpea at 7:47 AM on August 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
Start being more selfish. Put your needs and wants first, ahead of moochers and people who want to treat you like a doormat.
Also, kick out the boyfriend today. It's sad that his life was so bad, but that's what social services are for. You're not welfare or public housing or a counselor to take care of the people who had shitty parents. It's too much for one person with their own problems to do.
posted by elpea at 7:47 AM on August 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
You're approaching this all wrong. You have to start with this: Your sister is in her mid-20s. Her problems are not your problems. She's not your "best friend." You aren't her caretaker. Generally, choosing relatives (or even close friends) as roommates is a bad idea, for just the reasons you've outlined. It is your sister's duty to strike out on her own and form her own identity as an independent, self-supporting person. It might have seemed like a great idea to save money by splitting a studio (!) between the two of you, but this is a lesson in how sanity does, sometimes, come with a monthly cost you have to pay.
Under most circumstances, I'd suggest leaving and letting the rent and food become your sister's and your boyfriend's problem. As it is, since your name is on the lease, you are the one who has to stay in the studio. I'd send your sister back home to live with your parents, if that's possible.
The boyfriend, unfortunately, is going to end up moving back with his parents, because that's really the only life he knows, and he's used to it, and despite all the problems with his family, that's the path that requires the least amount of responsibility and self-care on his own part.
posted by deanc at 7:51 AM on August 5, 2010
Under most circumstances, I'd suggest leaving and letting the rent and food become your sister's and your boyfriend's problem. As it is, since your name is on the lease, you are the one who has to stay in the studio. I'd send your sister back home to live with your parents, if that's possible.
The boyfriend, unfortunately, is going to end up moving back with his parents, because that's really the only life he knows, and he's used to it, and despite all the problems with his family, that's the path that requires the least amount of responsibility and self-care on his own part.
posted by deanc at 7:51 AM on August 5, 2010
"so we figured we could move in together and have no roommates to worry about"
...your sister is your roommate and in some ways that's bound to be even harder than living with a stranger. There are no easy escapes; we all need to learn how to stick up for ourselves while maintaining civil relations with people. It's an ongoing process and you seem like a smart, thoughtful person who's just cresting the hill into a new perspective on things. Best of luck!
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:23 AM on August 5, 2010
...your sister is your roommate and in some ways that's bound to be even harder than living with a stranger. There are no easy escapes; we all need to learn how to stick up for ourselves while maintaining civil relations with people. It's an ongoing process and you seem like a smart, thoughtful person who's just cresting the hill into a new perspective on things. Best of luck!
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:23 AM on August 5, 2010
It sounds like you're especially worried about the conflict inherent in telling your sister that her boyfriend has to move out because you have a problem with his behavior (which, admittedly, is bizarre and you shouldn't have to tolerate). In the long term, you should work on your anxiety about there kinds of confrontations, and it sounds like you are doing that work. But, in the short term, you need to get out of this situation. In order to do this, you also have the option of leading with something that is less confrontational, but also 100% true: three people cannot live in your studio apartment, because of the lease, and three people cannot live in any studio apartment anyway, because it's a studio apartment. There are literally no two people in the world with whom I would be willing to share a studio apartment - you couldn't pay me to do it.
The best thing would be for your sister and her boyfriend to move out. If they won't, you should talk to your landlord about getting out of the lease. He/she might be willing to let you do this, since one of the tenants is still staying in the apartment. My experience is that landlords often don't mind letting people out of leases if they don't have to relist the apartment and find new tenants.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:32 AM on August 5, 2010
The best thing would be for your sister and her boyfriend to move out. If they won't, you should talk to your landlord about getting out of the lease. He/she might be willing to let you do this, since one of the tenants is still staying in the apartment. My experience is that landlords often don't mind letting people out of leases if they don't have to relist the apartment and find new tenants.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:32 AM on August 5, 2010
Your answer is right there in the lease: "only two people are allowed to live in this studio apartment." You've signed the lease and agreed to this condition, and he can't live there.
If your landlord comes round and sees three people living in that apartment, it won't just be him that's moving out.
I think what I'd do - especially given your personal issues - that you should move out and let the boyfriend and sister take over the lease. It#'s not your job to cook and clean after someone - I house-share and I cook meals for myself.
posted by mippy at 9:35 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
If your landlord comes round and sees three people living in that apartment, it won't just be him that's moving out.
I think what I'd do - especially given your personal issues - that you should move out and let the boyfriend and sister take over the lease. It#'s not your job to cook and clean after someone - I house-share and I cook meals for myself.
posted by mippy at 9:35 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
All good advice above about dealing with your sister and holding her to the lease. I think the best way to approach this might be from the perspective of *your* history. For crying out loud, you just moved away from an apartment with a deadbeat boyfriend.
I find it hard to believe that the boyfriend's family situation just suddenly got worse as soon as sister quits college and gets her "own" place. Quite a coincidence, huh?
posted by rhizome at 9:41 AM on August 5, 2010
I find it hard to believe that the boyfriend's family situation just suddenly got worse as soon as sister quits college and gets her "own" place. Quite a coincidence, huh?
posted by rhizome at 9:41 AM on August 5, 2010
Oh, and it just occurred to me: the boyfriend is going to be over all the time anyway whether he's a tenant or not, he's not going to choose to hang out with his parents at home. By this token the simplest solution is probably just to get your own place and let them enjoy the apartment for themselves (for as long as it lasts).
posted by rhizome at 9:43 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 9:43 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
Your question is needlessly long, complicated, and has too much detail. That type of venting is more appropriate for a blog post or a call to a good friend. The fact that you needed to unload so much background information that really has no bearing on the question makes me wonder if you need to take the time to address stress/boundary/dependency issues that are far beyond your current situation.
The issue really boils down to: your sister and boyfriend are using you. Because it is your sister you feel like you can't enforce your demands. They manipulate you with the boyfriend's sad family situation and your dependent relationship with your sister. These are not appropriate or healthy sibling interactions.
You pay for almost everything yet get nothing in return. In your gut you know this is wrong, but you are too anxious to fix the situation. Deal with the anxiety and co-dependence issues via counseling, figure out if you have enough money for your own apartment or find another roommate (how can it be worse that what's going on now?), and let your sister and her boyfriend figure out their problems. You're old enough to be a strong, independent person not reliant on dysfunctional relationships.
posted by lychee at 9:45 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
The issue really boils down to: your sister and boyfriend are using you. Because it is your sister you feel like you can't enforce your demands. They manipulate you with the boyfriend's sad family situation and your dependent relationship with your sister. These are not appropriate or healthy sibling interactions.
You pay for almost everything yet get nothing in return. In your gut you know this is wrong, but you are too anxious to fix the situation. Deal with the anxiety and co-dependence issues via counseling, figure out if you have enough money for your own apartment or find another roommate (how can it be worse that what's going on now?), and let your sister and her boyfriend figure out their problems. You're old enough to be a strong, independent person not reliant on dysfunctional relationships.
posted by lychee at 9:45 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
Just popping back in to say that if the poster leaves the apartment to Sister and Boyfriend, that the lease needs to be changed to reflect that, because if there are unpaid bills or damage the landlord is going to be looking at the person whose name is on the agreement to be responsible for the financial liability, and depending on how things play out, it could potentially affect her credit rating. If the landlord won't agree to the switchover, then it's not a reasonable option, in my opinion.
Imagine, for example, that our poster leaves... then after a bit, her sister also leaves, and the boyfriend still has the place with the addition of new person/people... and tachikoma_robot's name is still on the lease as the person responsible for whatever they do. eep!
posted by taz at 10:01 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Imagine, for example, that our poster leaves... then after a bit, her sister also leaves, and the boyfriend still has the place with the addition of new person/people... and tachikoma_robot's name is still on the lease as the person responsible for whatever they do. eep!
posted by taz at 10:01 AM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
You don't have any responsibility towards taking care of your sister and certainly not her boyfriend. Sharing this studio was a mistake although it could have worked out without the boyfriend but compare it to lending money to family, friends and colleagues. Do you expect it back with interest? You might get disappointed there and if you get upset the relationship may get ruined for a while so better to be avoided unless you are happy with giving away money. So what can you do? Get upset, ruin the relationship with a debtor and get your money back or change your expectation (be happy to lose money). But who actually did not pay you back when they should have and basically already ruined the relationship? So the easy answer is never to lend any money or share a flat with family, friend or co-workers.
But how do you now assess the need of people? Where do you set your boundaries? I see several of my neighbors here living with 3 generations (6+ people) in two bedroom flats. They do complain of overcrowding but would not dream of saying no to cousin x and y and certainly not done to bring mum or dad to the nursing home even if it was affordable. Unfortunately I made the same mistake as well expecting someone to move on, thought I offer a chance of better income, not get into more trouble alas so join the club.
So basically comes down to can you afford to take care of these people and change your expectation? The fortune you have compared to me is that your lease ends after 13 months. Make sure you move on. There is not much you can do for your sister then listen maybe some advice but make sure you never share a flat again.
posted by Mrs Mutant at 10:47 AM on August 5, 2010
But how do you now assess the need of people? Where do you set your boundaries? I see several of my neighbors here living with 3 generations (6+ people) in two bedroom flats. They do complain of overcrowding but would not dream of saying no to cousin x and y and certainly not done to bring mum or dad to the nursing home even if it was affordable. Unfortunately I made the same mistake as well expecting someone to move on, thought I offer a chance of better income, not get into more trouble alas so join the club.
So basically comes down to can you afford to take care of these people and change your expectation? The fortune you have compared to me is that your lease ends after 13 months. Make sure you move on. There is not much you can do for your sister then listen maybe some advice but make sure you never share a flat again.
posted by Mrs Mutant at 10:47 AM on August 5, 2010
TR, while all of the above advice is really good, I bet it isn't going to really help. Why? becaise I'm guessing that it is going ot be too difficult for you to confront your sister and boyfriend and follow through once you have done so. No one would argue that that kind og confrontation and follow through is not difficult and -- based on your 5am McDonald story -- it sounds like you are far, far too unassertive to handle it alone. And given that you are the signatory on the lease, it doesn't sound like you havethe ability ot just bail.
What might weork is for you to enlist some help. Maybe from your family (given that you are sisters), maybe from a well-intentioned aggresive friend, or maybe even from the landlord. But talking to someone who understands your plight and is will to take the reins, might get you out of this fix.
And when it is done, TR, you need to get some sort of assertiveness training. Life will be so much better when people don't think of you as someone that they can wake at 5am to "find" a McDonalds for them. (BTW -- I cannot think of a single person that I could do that to. And its not because I'm an nice guy, its because no one I know would roll over for such a request.)
posted by rtimmel at 11:47 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
What might weork is for you to enlist some help. Maybe from your family (given that you are sisters), maybe from a well-intentioned aggresive friend, or maybe even from the landlord. But talking to someone who understands your plight and is will to take the reins, might get you out of this fix.
And when it is done, TR, you need to get some sort of assertiveness training. Life will be so much better when people don't think of you as someone that they can wake at 5am to "find" a McDonalds for them. (BTW -- I cannot think of a single person that I could do that to. And its not because I'm an nice guy, its because no one I know would roll over for such a request.)
posted by rtimmel at 11:47 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
Later on she did a 180 and told me that she wasn't going to force me to let him live here...
When she said that, she must have realized what a colossally bad idea it was and this was probably her way of giving you an out. Deep down, she wanted you to say "No" and to be the bad guy/adult in this situation so that she could tell her boyfriend "no" without feeling guilty herself.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 12:08 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
When she said that, she must have realized what a colossally bad idea it was and this was probably her way of giving you an out. Deep down, she wanted you to say "No" and to be the bad guy/adult in this situation so that she could tell her boyfriend "no" without feeling guilty herself.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 12:08 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I agree with rtimmel. You're in a tough situation. From the outside the solutions are obvious- the lease says two occupants and that's that. Confront your sister, etc. Real life isn't so easy.
Please talk to someone in your family (if not your parents, an aunt or uncle?), a friend of the family you trust, a former teacher, and older neighbor... someone like that. Is there someone like that you feel comfortable turning to? What you need is a responsible adult-type person who will advocate for you when it comes down to dealing with your sister, the boyfriend and maybe even with the landlord. Whomever you enlist can survey the lay of the land and help you figure out whether it's in your best interest to move or to kick the boyfriend out.
Beyond that there's not much internet strangers can say, I don't think. Once you get your housing settled, you can address your problems with anxiety and so forth. Good for you for deciding to stick up for yourself. You're going to be alright.
posted by vincele at 12:17 PM on August 5, 2010
Please talk to someone in your family (if not your parents, an aunt or uncle?), a friend of the family you trust, a former teacher, and older neighbor... someone like that. Is there someone like that you feel comfortable turning to? What you need is a responsible adult-type person who will advocate for you when it comes down to dealing with your sister, the boyfriend and maybe even with the landlord. Whomever you enlist can survey the lay of the land and help you figure out whether it's in your best interest to move or to kick the boyfriend out.
Beyond that there's not much internet strangers can say, I don't think. Once you get your housing settled, you can address your problems with anxiety and so forth. Good for you for deciding to stick up for yourself. You're going to be alright.
posted by vincele at 12:17 PM on August 5, 2010
You need to not live with your sister.
posted by tarvuz at 12:42 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by tarvuz at 12:42 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for the advice everybody. I'm glad to know that i'm not being selfish or unreasonable here. I really honestly have a lot of trouble dealing with these things.
Also sorry for the excessive detail, and thanks for reading through it guys. tel3path you're right, I included so much detail because I'm just really clueless, I wasn't sure where my problems ended and others began, and what I'm responsible for and what I'm not. Until more recently I've spent my life trying to avoid my problems and now i'm trying not to do that anymore it's hard to know where to start and what's wrong and what isn't. Thank you for understanding. (And to make things more confusing for me, my sister and I are twins and we used to be as identical as could be, although these days we are very different.)
There was a lot of great advice in this thread. I marked all the helpful ones as best answers. I will try to talk to my sister about it asap, but I'm not really sure what to say yet but I won't give up so easily this time.
sively, you're particularly spot on, my own issues with people stem from our upbringing- I still have a lot of scars from it, being told that it wasn't ok to be shy or introverted, it wasn't good enough to just be myself, somehow we all had to all walk a very fine line and were punished when we refused. I fought my parents for years as a teen simply for the right to get up and go to bed and use my computer and do my homework when I wanted to, meanwhile I was struggling in school and being bullied terribly. I realized later on there are a lot of things my family does that are unhealthy and still trying to cope with it.
Thanks again everybody, I will take your advice to heart.
posted by tachikoma_robot at 1:00 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also sorry for the excessive detail, and thanks for reading through it guys. tel3path you're right, I included so much detail because I'm just really clueless, I wasn't sure where my problems ended and others began, and what I'm responsible for and what I'm not. Until more recently I've spent my life trying to avoid my problems and now i'm trying not to do that anymore it's hard to know where to start and what's wrong and what isn't. Thank you for understanding. (And to make things more confusing for me, my sister and I are twins and we used to be as identical as could be, although these days we are very different.)
There was a lot of great advice in this thread. I marked all the helpful ones as best answers. I will try to talk to my sister about it asap, but I'm not really sure what to say yet but I won't give up so easily this time.
sively, you're particularly spot on, my own issues with people stem from our upbringing- I still have a lot of scars from it, being told that it wasn't ok to be shy or introverted, it wasn't good enough to just be myself, somehow we all had to all walk a very fine line and were punished when we refused. I fought my parents for years as a teen simply for the right to get up and go to bed and use my computer and do my homework when I wanted to, meanwhile I was struggling in school and being bullied terribly. I realized later on there are a lot of things my family does that are unhealthy and still trying to cope with it.
Thanks again everybody, I will take your advice to heart.
posted by tachikoma_robot at 1:00 PM on August 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
It might help to role-play what you're going to say before you sit down with your sister. Even write down various responses, and state them out loud. I find that it helps if I'm going to confront someone to imagine what they will say, and be ready to respond back.
When I was very young, I was guilted into providing car rides to someone I worked with. It was out of my way, but at first I was happy to do it as it was only once a week. Then it became every other day, then every day. After a few weeks of that, I sat that person down and told them it was no longer possible to provide rides.
They tried guilt first, then anger. I held firm and just repeated that it was not possible for me to continue and to find other arrangements starting immediately. It was a little awkward at first, but they made it to work on time and we got along fine after that.
At the very least, let the man figure out how to feed himself. If someone woke me up to get them something to eat, they would have an injury to deal with.
posted by lootie777 at 1:22 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
When I was very young, I was guilted into providing car rides to someone I worked with. It was out of my way, but at first I was happy to do it as it was only once a week. Then it became every other day, then every day. After a few weeks of that, I sat that person down and told them it was no longer possible to provide rides.
They tried guilt first, then anger. I held firm and just repeated that it was not possible for me to continue and to find other arrangements starting immediately. It was a little awkward at first, but they made it to work on time and we got along fine after that.
At the very least, let the man figure out how to feed himself. If someone woke me up to get them something to eat, they would have an injury to deal with.
posted by lootie777 at 1:22 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I agree that it would be sensible to think through how your sister is likely to respond. I also had one more suggestion: whatever you say, be straightforward ("I'm willing to X, I'm not willing to Y" rather than "I feel...") and focus on the present.
Don't bring in past issues or complaints or your feelings about him because that makes it a negotiation:
You: "This isn't easy to say, but I don't want to live with Ted."
Sister: "But why? He has nowhere else to go!"
You: "He's messy and irresponsible."
Sister: "I'll talk to him, he'll do more of the cleaning."
You: "But he's also got a spotty employment record, I don't think he'll pay any rent"
Sister: "I'm helping him find a job, it'll work out."
You: "[reasons you don't like him]"
Sister: "[excuses for his behavior/promises/explanations]"
...and on and on until you give up.
Instead, keep it in the present, like this:
You: "This isn't easy to say, but I'm not willing to have Ted to move in."
Sister: "But why? He has nowhere else to go!"
You: "It's not something I'm willing to do right now."
Sister: "But... [guilt-trip]"
You: "I understand the situation, but I'm not willing to live with Ted; we have several options--you taking over the lease and living here with Ted, us living here without Ted, or me taking over the lease and you and Ted find another place."
Obviously it's unlikely to stay as calm as that, but since your post was so detailed and so emotional, I thought it was worth pointing out that the less history and emotion you bring to this discussion, and the more practical you make it, the better. This isn't a conversation with your sister in which you're giving each other emotional support, this is a conversation with your roommate in which you're ironing out the details of sharing an apartment.
posted by Meg_Murry at 3:04 PM on August 5, 2010 [6 favorites]
Don't bring in past issues or complaints or your feelings about him because that makes it a negotiation:
You: "This isn't easy to say, but I don't want to live with Ted."
Sister: "But why? He has nowhere else to go!"
You: "He's messy and irresponsible."
Sister: "I'll talk to him, he'll do more of the cleaning."
You: "But he's also got a spotty employment record, I don't think he'll pay any rent"
Sister: "I'm helping him find a job, it'll work out."
You: "[reasons you don't like him]"
Sister: "[excuses for his behavior/promises/explanations]"
...and on and on until you give up.
Instead, keep it in the present, like this:
You: "This isn't easy to say, but I'm not willing to have Ted to move in."
Sister: "But why? He has nowhere else to go!"
You: "It's not something I'm willing to do right now."
Sister: "But... [guilt-trip]"
You: "I understand the situation, but I'm not willing to live with Ted; we have several options--you taking over the lease and living here with Ted, us living here without Ted, or me taking over the lease and you and Ted find another place."
Obviously it's unlikely to stay as calm as that, but since your post was so detailed and so emotional, I thought it was worth pointing out that the less history and emotion you bring to this discussion, and the more practical you make it, the better. This isn't a conversation with your sister in which you're giving each other emotional support, this is a conversation with your roommate in which you're ironing out the details of sharing an apartment.
posted by Meg_Murry at 3:04 PM on August 5, 2010 [6 favorites]
And he did it again today, refused the salmon for dinner . . . He was hungry and got up in the middle of the night, ate cereal noisily in the middle of the room where his desk is, while I was trying to sleep.
One time while they were visiting me some months ago, he woke us up at 5am to complain he was really hungry . . .
To add insult to injury, he walks around shirtless and snores loudly, kinda smells and is socially clueless, which, along with his unfortunate hearing loss . . .
This is hell. This is hell, I am sorry to tell you. I post to tell you this because, whatever decision you make, you should understand that this is a terrible living situation, in which no one should feel obligated to stay. (That includes your sister, but she has to make her own decision in this regard.) I know from personal experience that, when you're young and don't have a lot of people in your life who stood up to leeches, it's hard to realize when the time has come to do it. But, from your answer, it sounds like you're on the right track. Just remember: there is nothing you did to deserve this. Good luck.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:15 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
One time while they were visiting me some months ago, he woke us up at 5am to complain he was really hungry . . .
To add insult to injury, he walks around shirtless and snores loudly, kinda smells and is socially clueless, which, along with his unfortunate hearing loss . . .
This is hell. This is hell, I am sorry to tell you. I post to tell you this because, whatever decision you make, you should understand that this is a terrible living situation, in which no one should feel obligated to stay. (That includes your sister, but she has to make her own decision in this regard.) I know from personal experience that, when you're young and don't have a lot of people in your life who stood up to leeches, it's hard to realize when the time has come to do it. But, from your answer, it sounds like you're on the right track. Just remember: there is nothing you did to deserve this. Good luck.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:15 PM on August 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
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It's okay to say "this isn't working - I need Boyfriend to move out by the end of the month." Don't get into a conversation about her relationship, his qualities, how he could do better, etc., etc., just say what needs to happen and when it needs to happen by. When they protest, say, "i'm sorry you feel that way," and keep repeating it.
It's okay to look after your own needs, especially since you've already bent over backwards to try and accommodate everyone else.
posted by ukdanae at 3:10 AM on August 5, 2010 [3 favorites]