So much for Girls Night Out.
June 11, 2012 5:37 PM Subscribe
My best friend always brings her boyfriend along when we get together without asking or prior warning. I hate being a third wheel and have told her so, yet it continues to happen. Is this the death knell for our friendship? (Special details of course.)
My best friend and I are in our mid-20s and have been close for the past four years. We typically see each other once a week. She is positive, funny, generous, and a great confidant. We never argue and we have pulled each other through rough times.
However, I have reached my breaking point with one thing: she always brings her boyfriend of 2 years along when we get together. Always. She never tells me beforehand, just says "I'll see you at 5," and sure enough there he is in tow, leaving me -- the perpetually single one -- a third wheel to what is essentially a date.
There are a number of reasons why I don't enjoy this:
1.) Her boyfriend and I are not friends outside of the fact that we both care about her. He has a sarcastic superiority complex (which I find tiresome, but my friend thinks is adorable) and has made judgy comments about women's bodies multiple times, which upsets me because I am fat (neither he nor my friend are). I don't really care for him, but have never told her this because it is her decision who she wants to date and he seems to treat her well enough.
2.) They're very heavy on the PDA. Holding hands, gazing lovingly into eyes, kissing constantly. It is frankly uncomfortable to me to be the third person standing on the edge of that. Am I supposed to look away? Smile approvingly? Pine and wish for same? It's just awkward.
3.) I have actually told her once before that I would prefer our hangouts to be just us. She said she was sorry, that she knows we can't talk as freely when he's there and knows she should ask before she brings him along. But it didn't change.
4.) My friend has admitted to me once in a moment of drunkenness that she feels sorry for me for being always single, that she is sorry that "people don't see what [she] sees in [me]." This is actually not the stance I take towards my singleness at all, so her unwanted pity stung a bit. Men have approached me in my singleness and I have turned them down for various reasons. I want to have a relationship based on shared goals, interests, and care, and didn't see one or more of those things happening with the men who "saw something" in me. So, knowing that she looks on my singleness with pity, a part of me wonders why she would continue to force her togetherness on me by bringing her boyfriend along to everything.
They had a long distance interlude for about a year and a half while he went back to school, but since the spring have been living within 10 minutes of each other. I felt way more generous about him crashing our plans when they were long distance and seeing each other one every couple of months; it was fine to me that he'd show up at what was supposed to be our girls nights out here and there, because of course they'd want to spend every minute of their "face time" together. Now that they're together all the time, I wonder why she and I can't see each other as just the two of us.
Given that I've already communicated my discomfort with being the third wheel to her once, do you think it is worth trying again? Or should I just let it go and start to fade away from her/them? It would hurt terribly to lose her friendship, but I honestly don't enjoy myself when he's around.
My best friend and I are in our mid-20s and have been close for the past four years. We typically see each other once a week. She is positive, funny, generous, and a great confidant. We never argue and we have pulled each other through rough times.
However, I have reached my breaking point with one thing: she always brings her boyfriend of 2 years along when we get together. Always. She never tells me beforehand, just says "I'll see you at 5," and sure enough there he is in tow, leaving me -- the perpetually single one -- a third wheel to what is essentially a date.
There are a number of reasons why I don't enjoy this:
1.) Her boyfriend and I are not friends outside of the fact that we both care about her. He has a sarcastic superiority complex (which I find tiresome, but my friend thinks is adorable) and has made judgy comments about women's bodies multiple times, which upsets me because I am fat (neither he nor my friend are). I don't really care for him, but have never told her this because it is her decision who she wants to date and he seems to treat her well enough.
2.) They're very heavy on the PDA. Holding hands, gazing lovingly into eyes, kissing constantly. It is frankly uncomfortable to me to be the third person standing on the edge of that. Am I supposed to look away? Smile approvingly? Pine and wish for same? It's just awkward.
3.) I have actually told her once before that I would prefer our hangouts to be just us. She said she was sorry, that she knows we can't talk as freely when he's there and knows she should ask before she brings him along. But it didn't change.
4.) My friend has admitted to me once in a moment of drunkenness that she feels sorry for me for being always single, that she is sorry that "people don't see what [she] sees in [me]." This is actually not the stance I take towards my singleness at all, so her unwanted pity stung a bit. Men have approached me in my singleness and I have turned them down for various reasons. I want to have a relationship based on shared goals, interests, and care, and didn't see one or more of those things happening with the men who "saw something" in me. So, knowing that she looks on my singleness with pity, a part of me wonders why she would continue to force her togetherness on me by bringing her boyfriend along to everything.
They had a long distance interlude for about a year and a half while he went back to school, but since the spring have been living within 10 minutes of each other. I felt way more generous about him crashing our plans when they were long distance and seeing each other one every couple of months; it was fine to me that he'd show up at what was supposed to be our girls nights out here and there, because of course they'd want to spend every minute of their "face time" together. Now that they're together all the time, I wonder why she and I can't see each other as just the two of us.
Given that I've already communicated my discomfort with being the third wheel to her once, do you think it is worth trying again? Or should I just let it go and start to fade away from her/them? It would hurt terribly to lose her friendship, but I honestly don't enjoy myself when he's around.
After you had spoken to her once, she brought him again (yes, crappy move) and you didn't say anything. Nor did you say anything or just cancel when she showed up with him after all the other subsequent get togethers. So she thinks you were not serious because your actions did not match your words. Yes, I would say it once more and if she brings him again cancel on the spot. Or accept that she is just one of those people that is always a package deal.
posted by saucysault at 5:45 PM on June 11, 2012 [14 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 5:45 PM on June 11, 2012 [14 favorites]
Maybe phrase your next catchup as a "girls day" and get manicures/hair one/tea party/whatever you think he won't be interested in but both ladies will be. In other words, make it explicit it's just the two of you and when you get together, reiterate how you've missed catching up with her one on one and you'd like to do it more often. Then plan the next one.
posted by Jubey at 5:46 PM on June 11, 2012 [13 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 5:46 PM on June 11, 2012 [13 favorites]
I think your "best friend" has made it known that she has other priorities, namely being with her boyfriend as much as possible.
She also doesn't seem like much of a friend and, not to make you paranoid but this is just my observation, I would wonder if she's only being friends out of her pity, rather than due to mutual interests.
My advice is to keep the life line open, but don't initiate the hang out time. In the mean time, start actively looking for other people who can actually appreciate, or at least respect, your views rather than seeing you as some sad sap.
posted by DisreputableDog at 5:47 PM on June 11, 2012 [5 favorites]
She also doesn't seem like much of a friend and, not to make you paranoid but this is just my observation, I would wonder if she's only being friends out of her pity, rather than due to mutual interests.
My advice is to keep the life line open, but don't initiate the hang out time. In the mean time, start actively looking for other people who can actually appreciate, or at least respect, your views rather than seeing you as some sad sap.
posted by DisreputableDog at 5:47 PM on June 11, 2012 [5 favorites]
That should be 'hair done" as in go to the salon together, if it floats your boat.
posted by Jubey at 5:48 PM on June 11, 2012
posted by Jubey at 5:48 PM on June 11, 2012
What saucysault said. Perhaps more passive-aggressive than Jubey's suggestion, but I'm not sure that having to fit activities into a "girls' day" framework is going to be helpful here, because it implies that Boyfriend sets the rules on when you have private friend time.
posted by holgate at 5:54 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by holgate at 5:54 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would wonder if she's only being friends out of her pity
First of all, the OP has nothing to be pitied for. The "best friend" saying she pitied her because she happens to be single is just another example of her jerkishness and lack of respect, as is bringing along her boyfriend on every damn get-together.
Second of all, I bet the "friend" is jerkish enough to think of the OP as a good foil for her, because in her mind she is probably God's gift to the universe, rather than a rude person with a jerky boyfriend. (Who goes out with their girlfriend and their girlfriend's female friend and thinks it's appropriate to comment on other women's bodies? So crass, ugh.)
I would fucking dump Princess Douchecanoe and her consort and find some friends who didn't act like snotballs all the time, but that's me.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:54 PM on June 11, 2012 [18 favorites]
First of all, the OP has nothing to be pitied for. The "best friend" saying she pitied her because she happens to be single is just another example of her jerkishness and lack of respect, as is bringing along her boyfriend on every damn get-together.
Second of all, I bet the "friend" is jerkish enough to think of the OP as a good foil for her, because in her mind she is probably God's gift to the universe, rather than a rude person with a jerky boyfriend. (Who goes out with their girlfriend and their girlfriend's female friend and thinks it's appropriate to comment on other women's bodies? So crass, ugh.)
I would fucking dump Princess Douchecanoe and her consort and find some friends who didn't act like snotballs all the time, but that's me.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:54 PM on June 11, 2012 [18 favorites]
Best answer: I don't think that talking to her once about it and then calling it quits without talking to her about it again is at all fair or what I call being a good friend on your part. She is being shitty to you but so is talking to her about it once and then ending the friendship when the behavior doesn't change to your satisfaction.
I think almost everyone, especially a best friend, deserves a second chance. Talk to her about it again. Then if she chooses to ignore your request again at least you can leave the relationship with the knowledge that you gave it the effort it deserved.
posted by teamnap at 6:01 PM on June 11, 2012 [7 favorites]
I think almost everyone, especially a best friend, deserves a second chance. Talk to her about it again. Then if she chooses to ignore your request again at least you can leave the relationship with the knowledge that you gave it the effort it deserved.
posted by teamnap at 6:01 PM on June 11, 2012 [7 favorites]
I have pulled the "girls' night!!" thing before, not because I love manicures and hairdos but because sometimes you just need time with girlfriends, and this ensures a lack of gentlemen. It does work, in desperate time.
That being said, it does mean that every non-"girls' night!!" becomes an event to which the boyfriend is implicitly invited. If that's not okay, you need to get more serious.
Who makes the plans? Is it you? Is it via email or text or some other means? Can you just specify in the plan that he's not invited? Perhaps "hey bestie let's hit up that new taco joint tomorrow. Just you and me, okay?" would do the trick. If she says no to this sort of invite more than a couple of times, well, you know that either she doesn't want to be your pal or the boyfriend is terribly controlling (and that's a whole new AskMe).
posted by AmandaA at 6:02 PM on June 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
That being said, it does mean that every non-"girls' night!!" becomes an event to which the boyfriend is implicitly invited. If that's not okay, you need to get more serious.
Who makes the plans? Is it you? Is it via email or text or some other means? Can you just specify in the plan that he's not invited? Perhaps "hey bestie let's hit up that new taco joint tomorrow. Just you and me, okay?" would do the trick. If she says no to this sort of invite more than a couple of times, well, you know that either she doesn't want to be your pal or the boyfriend is terribly controlling (and that's a whole new AskMe).
posted by AmandaA at 6:02 PM on June 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
Have you considered speaking directly to him?
If I had a partner whose friend came up to me and said: "Look Sarastro, you aren't giving me space with my friend. How about you go play ping-pong or something*"
I might be a little stung, but I would get the message.
*maybe turn up the tact, on that one
posted by sarastro at 6:06 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
If I had a partner whose friend came up to me and said: "Look Sarastro, you aren't giving me space with my friend. How about you go play ping-pong or something*"
I might be a little stung, but I would get the message.
*maybe turn up the tact, on that one
posted by sarastro at 6:06 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
Just as an additional data point: when you and your friend make plans, is one of you always the one to call the other? Or does she ask you out sometimes, and you ask her other times? Because somehow or other, I suspect the answer to that is that you're always the one to ask her......
So: you have a friend who feels her relationship makes her superior enough to you to actually tell you she *pities* you, who doesn't think spending time one-on-one with you is interesting or entertaining, so she insists on always bringing along her snarky insulting ("oh, but isn't he CUTE when he makes fun of other people?!?") boyfriend.
Good grief. Dump her AND her jerky boyfriend.
posted by easily confused at 6:11 PM on June 11, 2012 [5 favorites]
So: you have a friend who feels her relationship makes her superior enough to you to actually tell you she *pities* you, who doesn't think spending time one-on-one with you is interesting or entertaining, so she insists on always bringing along her snarky insulting ("oh, but isn't he CUTE when he makes fun of other people?!?") boyfriend.
Good grief. Dump her AND her jerky boyfriend.
posted by easily confused at 6:11 PM on June 11, 2012 [5 favorites]
Don't do any of these passive-aggressive girl's outing suggestions. Sit her down, tell her again, act accordingly based upon her response.
posted by Cosine at 6:11 PM on June 11, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by Cosine at 6:11 PM on June 11, 2012 [6 favorites]
Best answer: That's disrespectful. Can't stand that shit. It's disengaged and half-assed. It's like inviting somebody over to watch you read.
You've mentioned it to her already, but you can also say plainly, I'm not good with the third wheel thing. I don't want to be in that position, so I'm asking if that's what [xyz] is going to be, in advance. If so, that's cool, have fun, but I'm gonna go do something else. We can hang out some other time.
I don't know how to say it totally non-passive-aggressively, but I think just laying it out is best. For my part, "Some other time," is usually me cutting ties altogether, but that's just my temperament.
posted by evil holiday magic at 6:12 PM on June 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
You've mentioned it to her already, but you can also say plainly, I'm not good with the third wheel thing. I don't want to be in that position, so I'm asking if that's what [xyz] is going to be, in advance. If so, that's cool, have fun, but I'm gonna go do something else. We can hang out some other time.
I don't know how to say it totally non-passive-aggressively, but I think just laying it out is best. For my part, "Some other time," is usually me cutting ties altogether, but that's just my temperament.
posted by evil holiday magic at 6:12 PM on June 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
Yeah, the ladies get together isn't so much about love for all things girly, rather to create a scenario where the boyfriend won't be there so friend can remember what she's missing. If she doesn't bite, doesn't like it or god forbid, brings him (and yes, that has actually happened to me, one guy who insisted on coming, 8 women) dump her ass. She's making it clear there's no real friendship there. Be prepared for eventual phone call when they break up and she wants someone to hang out with, though.
posted by Jubey at 6:15 PM on June 11, 2012
posted by Jubey at 6:15 PM on June 11, 2012
Response by poster: To answer the question about who asks who to hang out, it's fairly equal but actually more often her that does the asking. Which makes the necessity of clarifying how I feel to her probably even more important.
posted by houndsoflove at 6:15 PM on June 11, 2012
posted by houndsoflove at 6:15 PM on June 11, 2012
No amount of patching and embroidery will make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. This girl doesn't sound like she's good friend material. She's condescending, insensitive, rude and selfish.
That said, if you want to try to work with the situation....
I'd tell her one more time and firmly that you don't want her to bring her boyfriend along as a "surprise". I'd tell her I want her to promise that she won't do it again before we made any further plans. And if she did it again after that, I'd not bother being friends with her any more.
When/if that's resolved I'd recommend you talk to her about the condescending attitude she has towards your being single, and address some of the problems you have with the boyfriend's behaviour. If you continue being friends with her you'll be hanging out with the pair of them sometimes, and there's no reason you should have to tolerate them making out in front of you or his vetting other women's bodies.
posted by orange swan at 6:21 PM on June 11, 2012
That said, if you want to try to work with the situation....
I'd tell her one more time and firmly that you don't want her to bring her boyfriend along as a "surprise". I'd tell her I want her to promise that she won't do it again before we made any further plans. And if she did it again after that, I'd not bother being friends with her any more.
When/if that's resolved I'd recommend you talk to her about the condescending attitude she has towards your being single, and address some of the problems you have with the boyfriend's behaviour. If you continue being friends with her you'll be hanging out with the pair of them sometimes, and there's no reason you should have to tolerate them making out in front of you or his vetting other women's bodies.
posted by orange swan at 6:21 PM on June 11, 2012
I'm going to go ahead and say from prior experience that i don't think it's looking good for this friendship to continue at least not at a best friends level.
Here's why:
1) You don't really get along with him, and there are things you don't like about him. She has probably picked up on this and is either subconsciously or consciously framing the situation as "houndsoflove doesn't like hanging out with my boyfriend and me because she doesn't like him" not because you just want to see her by herself.
2) You already talked to her about this and no change.
3) The pity comment. Do you want to be friends with someone who pities you? Friendship should be about mutual respect. Side question: Do you ever feel like you have to "prove" anything to her? Like how happy and cool and adjusted you are, despite whatever she sees as your shortcomings or not dating or whatever else she pities about you? I'm asking because I've felt this dynamic myself.
In my experience people can be really strange and hypersensitive about relationships, especially people who do things like bring their SO along without asking you first and people who do excessive PDA. It's a way of putting distance between themselves and you. It's a way of putting their relationship way above any relationship with you. I had a friend ( a guy, and I'm a girl, and we're both straight, but still, we were just friends) who cut me off without saying anything after I asked once if we could hang out just us. Finally FIVE YEARS later he told me it was because he thought I didn't like his fiancee, which wasn't true, and even though I still don't know exactly where he got that impression, the only thing I can think of is that time that I asked if we could hang out just us.
So what I do now is just drop people one level in relationships if they do things like this. Not "best friends" just someone you see once in a while. She could change and you can move her up to best friend again. But as is, it's not working, so I would remove some of the intensity of the friendship. It helps to spread yourself around socially and keep busy.
posted by sweetkid at 6:25 PM on June 11, 2012 [5 favorites]
Here's why:
1) You don't really get along with him, and there are things you don't like about him. She has probably picked up on this and is either subconsciously or consciously framing the situation as "houndsoflove doesn't like hanging out with my boyfriend and me because she doesn't like him" not because you just want to see her by herself.
2) You already talked to her about this and no change.
3) The pity comment. Do you want to be friends with someone who pities you? Friendship should be about mutual respect. Side question: Do you ever feel like you have to "prove" anything to her? Like how happy and cool and adjusted you are, despite whatever she sees as your shortcomings or not dating or whatever else she pities about you? I'm asking because I've felt this dynamic myself.
In my experience people can be really strange and hypersensitive about relationships, especially people who do things like bring their SO along without asking you first and people who do excessive PDA. It's a way of putting distance between themselves and you. It's a way of putting their relationship way above any relationship with you. I had a friend ( a guy, and I'm a girl, and we're both straight, but still, we were just friends) who cut me off without saying anything after I asked once if we could hang out just us. Finally FIVE YEARS later he told me it was because he thought I didn't like his fiancee, which wasn't true, and even though I still don't know exactly where he got that impression, the only thing I can think of is that time that I asked if we could hang out just us.
So what I do now is just drop people one level in relationships if they do things like this. Not "best friends" just someone you see once in a while. She could change and you can move her up to best friend again. But as is, it's not working, so I would remove some of the intensity of the friendship. It helps to spread yourself around socially and keep busy.
posted by sweetkid at 6:25 PM on June 11, 2012 [5 favorites]
"Hey friend, can I talk to you about something a little bit awkward? So I miss hanging out with you one on one. Boyfriend is a good guy, and I'm totally cool hanging out with both of you together some of the time, but I'd like us to get to spend some time together - just the two of us - regularly as well. Can we make one on one plans for sometime soon?"
Then, every single time you make plans - mention Boyfriend explicitly when making the plans. "This one is going to be one on one, right?" or "It's cool if Boyfriends comes and hangs out with us."
Basically, I would first tell her frankly and clearly that you want to make plans with just her some of the time. Then, every time you make plans, I would have a conversation about whether Boyfriend is invited or not - make sure to invite him a reasonable amount of the time (might be 1/4 of the time, might be 3/4 of the time), but make it explicit whether or not he is coming in advance.
Right now, your friend may not know that this is bugging you - I'd give her the benefit of the doubt, personally. Make it clear, then if she (after agreeing that Boyfriend isn't invited) brings him anyway, that's when I'd start thinking about whether she respects me.
posted by insectosaurus at 6:36 PM on June 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
Then, every single time you make plans - mention Boyfriend explicitly when making the plans. "This one is going to be one on one, right?" or "It's cool if Boyfriends comes and hangs out with us."
Basically, I would first tell her frankly and clearly that you want to make plans with just her some of the time. Then, every time you make plans, I would have a conversation about whether Boyfriend is invited or not - make sure to invite him a reasonable amount of the time (might be 1/4 of the time, might be 3/4 of the time), but make it explicit whether or not he is coming in advance.
Right now, your friend may not know that this is bugging you - I'd give her the benefit of the doubt, personally. Make it clear, then if she (after agreeing that Boyfriend isn't invited) brings him anyway, that's when I'd start thinking about whether she respects me.
posted by insectosaurus at 6:36 PM on June 11, 2012 [4 favorites]
I don't really see this as a bad friend thing so much as a default setting problem. It's been so long the status quo that he gets to tag along, that she's just going, SURE! Friend won't mind! Every time.
I think you really need to spell it out and then see what she does. So next time you're on the phone, take a minute. Say, Hey, can we take a minute to talk about something serious? I know I've said it before, but I don't feel like you really heard me. You're boyfriend's great, but I want sometimes for it to be just the two of us. I don't mean to freeze him out, but that you and me time was really special to me, and I miss it. So do you think we could put some of that back on the menu? When I ask just you out, i'd really like it to be just you. And maybe sometimes that won't be possible for you, or maybe it's something you think maybe your guy would like in on sometimes, but could you ask first? It really does upset me when I'm expecting to dish with my friend over pizza & suddenly there's a third person in the mix.
See where it goes from there.
posted by Ys at 6:39 PM on June 11, 2012
I think you really need to spell it out and then see what she does. So next time you're on the phone, take a minute. Say, Hey, can we take a minute to talk about something serious? I know I've said it before, but I don't feel like you really heard me. You're boyfriend's great, but I want sometimes for it to be just the two of us. I don't mean to freeze him out, but that you and me time was really special to me, and I miss it. So do you think we could put some of that back on the menu? When I ask just you out, i'd really like it to be just you. And maybe sometimes that won't be possible for you, or maybe it's something you think maybe your guy would like in on sometimes, but could you ask first? It really does upset me when I'm expecting to dish with my friend over pizza & suddenly there's a third person in the mix.
See where it goes from there.
posted by Ys at 6:39 PM on June 11, 2012
I don't know if we can necessarily assume that she knows it's annoying and doesn't care and is therefore a bad friend: she could just be clueless. The combination of spending every waking moment with boyfriend plus 'pitying' you because you're single makes me think that she is the kind of person who places a lot of value on romantic relationships. You may be high on the priority list too, but boyfriend takes the top spot.
My point is that she may not be so much phasing you out or being necessarily uncaring (though thoughtless, perhaps); just that she may not realize that not everyone assumes that boyfriend time is always the trump card. Sort of like some new parents who only talk about their kid, and bring the kid everywhere: annoying, but not evidence of bad character per se.
It sounds like you guys are (were?) pretty close, so I personally would try to have a heart to heart like some of the other commenters have suggested. I'd approach it from the viewpoint that she may not be really appreciating that it is, in fact, annoying to have friend time turn into couple time (or even that these are two different things) and see if that gets anywhere.
posted by AV at 6:41 PM on June 11, 2012
My point is that she may not be so much phasing you out or being necessarily uncaring (though thoughtless, perhaps); just that she may not realize that not everyone assumes that boyfriend time is always the trump card. Sort of like some new parents who only talk about their kid, and bring the kid everywhere: annoying, but not evidence of bad character per se.
It sounds like you guys are (were?) pretty close, so I personally would try to have a heart to heart like some of the other commenters have suggested. I'd approach it from the viewpoint that she may not be really appreciating that it is, in fact, annoying to have friend time turn into couple time (or even that these are two different things) and see if that gets anywhere.
posted by AV at 6:41 PM on June 11, 2012
I've often thought about this when reading BFF questions, and now I'm going to write it.
My best friend is married, and I'm single. When I get tired of her (much older) husband tagging along, which makes me feel like the pathetic third wheel, I tell her how I feel. I say, "Can we have a girls night out with Joe turning up? He seems to have some sort of superiority complex going on which makes me uncomfortable, I always feel like a schoolgirl in the presence of the headmaster".
She takes that into account and makes an effort to spend time with me, without hubby tagging along. (It goes both ways - she also tells me bluntly if she thinks I'm procrastinating or slacking off or need a lecture on how to do what's right.)
This particular woman has taught me that BFF's are honest, and if they truly are BFF's, the advice is either taken or (gently) debated. And you're still BFF's afterwards, it's just that you know where you stand and you take measures to either solve or ease the problems.
If she's not taking those steps, I'm sorry to say she's not your best friend.
posted by malibustacey9999 at 6:45 PM on June 11, 2012 [8 favorites]
My best friend is married, and I'm single. When I get tired of her (much older) husband tagging along, which makes me feel like the pathetic third wheel, I tell her how I feel. I say, "Can we have a girls night out with Joe turning up? He seems to have some sort of superiority complex going on which makes me uncomfortable, I always feel like a schoolgirl in the presence of the headmaster".
She takes that into account and makes an effort to spend time with me, without hubby tagging along. (It goes both ways - she also tells me bluntly if she thinks I'm procrastinating or slacking off or need a lecture on how to do what's right.)
This particular woman has taught me that BFF's are honest, and if they truly are BFF's, the advice is either taken or (gently) debated. And you're still BFF's afterwards, it's just that you know where you stand and you take measures to either solve or ease the problems.
If she's not taking those steps, I'm sorry to say she's not your best friend.
posted by malibustacey9999 at 6:45 PM on June 11, 2012 [8 favorites]
Yes, definitely talk to your friend again.
and when you do talk, don't try to make it so that ALL of your outings are Girls' Night Out...
just one out of every three or four....that way she won't see your request as jealousy or not "respecting" her relationship.
And if you want to be extra nice, maybe frame your concern as that you are trying not to intrude on their date nights...
In fact, you can use that as an excuse once in a while..."oh, you're inviting me to the movies...well, it kinda sounds like a Date Night for you guys so I'll pass on this one."
posted by calgirl at 6:46 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
and when you do talk, don't try to make it so that ALL of your outings are Girls' Night Out...
just one out of every three or four....that way she won't see your request as jealousy or not "respecting" her relationship.
And if you want to be extra nice, maybe frame your concern as that you are trying not to intrude on their date nights...
In fact, you can use that as an excuse once in a while..."oh, you're inviting me to the movies...well, it kinda sounds like a Date Night for you guys so I'll pass on this one."
posted by calgirl at 6:46 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
she always brings her boyfriend of 2 years along when we get together. Always. She never tells me beforehand, just says "I'll see you at 5," and sure enough there he is in tow,
First of all, when you two make these plans, explicitly reference how you mentioned that you'd like some time with just her and you. Secondly, since you know that "I" tends to turn into "we," take this opportunity to clarify your expectations.
If she demurs, you're well within your rights to ask why he always comes along. Does he not trust her to leave his sight? Does he have something against you? Has an evil foreign government implanted bombs in each of them which will detonate if they are more than 20 feet apart?
posted by desuetude at 6:54 PM on June 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
First of all, when you two make these plans, explicitly reference how you mentioned that you'd like some time with just her and you. Secondly, since you know that "I" tends to turn into "we," take this opportunity to clarify your expectations.
If she demurs, you're well within your rights to ask why he always comes along. Does he not trust her to leave his sight? Does he have something against you? Has an evil foreign government implanted bombs in each of them which will detonate if they are more than 20 feet apart?
posted by desuetude at 6:54 PM on June 11, 2012 [3 favorites]
This is probably not the passive move you want to take here, but a way around this is to call everything a "girls night out." Call her up and go "hey we need to have a girls night out woo." Then the next week, "time for girls night out again woo." The woo is important. This might fix your problem without a confrontation, but then again your situation probably merits a bit of a heart to heart, but I thought I'd throw this out there is you didn't want to do that.
posted by whoaali at 7:19 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by whoaali at 7:19 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
This girl is not the friend you think she is. Seriously.
posted by Go Banana at 7:20 PM on June 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Go Banana at 7:20 PM on June 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
Make plans with her. Nowhere special, just a movie, or a dinner near you. Say that you're looking forward to just seeing her. If she brings the bf, leave. If it's a dinner, say the reservations were for just two, and she's kind of ruined it.
She's not going to change without consequences.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 7:24 PM on June 11, 2012
She's not going to change without consequences.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 7:24 PM on June 11, 2012
Best answer: Yes, you've got to tell her more than just one time! You don't get to have it be your last straw until you've told her -- well, at least more than once. I probably wouldn't have a sit-down, I'd just say:
Her: "Wanna hang out Friday?"
You: "Just us, or Joe too?"
Her: "All three of us."
You: "I don't know, I'm more in girls night mood/one-on-one mood/no boys allowed mood/whatever. Why don't the two of you go out and you and I can hang out just us another time?"
You will probably have to restate this preference several times AND be prepared to follow through with not hanging out if it's the three of you. AND if she confirms just the two of you, and then brings him anyway, be prepared to say, "Oh, I thought it was just us tonight. I'm sorry, I'm just not feeling super-social and I don't really have the energy. I'll have to see you another time."
"My friend has admitted to me once in a moment of drunkenness that she feels sorry for me for being always single, that she is sorry that "people don't see what [she] sees in [me]." "
I personally think you are reading too much into this. She can simultaneously think you're rocking your singleness, while also feeling bad you haven't met the right person yet -- since you do say in your post that you do want a relationship, with the right person. It doesn't have to be looking-down-on-you pity; it could be feeling-sorry-for-you-because-she-wants-the-best-for-you. Which sort of friend is she? If it's the former, why is she your BFF?
This is a really good question: "If she demurs, you're well within your rights to ask why he always comes along. Does he not trust her to leave his sight? Does he have something against you? Has an evil foreign government implanted bombs in each of them which will detonate if they are more than 20 feet apart?" that I'd want to know the answer to. I'd add that some people are naturally lumpers or splitters when it comes to hanging out -- some people ALWAYS feel the need to be in a group and invite all their people; others ALWAYS feel the need to be one-on-one. She might just be a lumper, but then you'd have to decide if you can live with that. (But I bet it's something to do with one of them needing to feel in control of the other -- like maybe he is a less unpleasant person to be around later or makes better drinking choices or something when she controls and supervises his socializing.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:29 PM on June 11, 2012 [7 favorites]
Her: "Wanna hang out Friday?"
You: "Just us, or Joe too?"
Her: "All three of us."
You: "I don't know, I'm more in girls night mood/one-on-one mood/no boys allowed mood/whatever. Why don't the two of you go out and you and I can hang out just us another time?"
You will probably have to restate this preference several times AND be prepared to follow through with not hanging out if it's the three of you. AND if she confirms just the two of you, and then brings him anyway, be prepared to say, "Oh, I thought it was just us tonight. I'm sorry, I'm just not feeling super-social and I don't really have the energy. I'll have to see you another time."
"My friend has admitted to me once in a moment of drunkenness that she feels sorry for me for being always single, that she is sorry that "people don't see what [she] sees in [me]." "
I personally think you are reading too much into this. She can simultaneously think you're rocking your singleness, while also feeling bad you haven't met the right person yet -- since you do say in your post that you do want a relationship, with the right person. It doesn't have to be looking-down-on-you pity; it could be feeling-sorry-for-you-because-she-wants-the-best-for-you. Which sort of friend is she? If it's the former, why is she your BFF?
This is a really good question: "If she demurs, you're well within your rights to ask why he always comes along. Does he not trust her to leave his sight? Does he have something against you? Has an evil foreign government implanted bombs in each of them which will detonate if they are more than 20 feet apart?" that I'd want to know the answer to. I'd add that some people are naturally lumpers or splitters when it comes to hanging out -- some people ALWAYS feel the need to be in a group and invite all their people; others ALWAYS feel the need to be one-on-one. She might just be a lumper, but then you'd have to decide if you can live with that. (But I bet it's something to do with one of them needing to feel in control of the other -- like maybe he is a less unpleasant person to be around later or makes better drinking choices or something when she controls and supervises his socializing.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:29 PM on June 11, 2012 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Trying not to threadsit, but I just wanted to say that I think you are correct, EyebrowsMcGee, that I may have read too much into the pity. She can be thoughtless when she is preoccupied (or drunk, as we all can be) and I do think her bringing her BF all the time while knowing the kind of person I am is, as evil holiday magic calls it best, "disengaged." But reading the answers given so far and reflecting on them, I feel pretty deeply that she is not rude/malicious. (Will not defend the BF though.)
posted by houndsoflove at 7:46 PM on June 11, 2012
posted by houndsoflove at 7:46 PM on June 11, 2012
I'm someone who does invite my boyfriend to a lot of get-togethers, since he's long distance and it wouldn't seem right for him to show up in my city, only for me to say sorry, you can't hang out with me and my friends. I have explained this to friends enough so that they know if it's a weekend and they're inviting me someplace, they are in effect inviting him too--unless they specifically say otherwise. I do tell my boyfriend when a friend wants one on one time with me, and he goes off and entertains himself for a few hours and doesn't seem to hold it against me. I treat other friends the same as my boyfriend, for that matter--if there's a big get-together going on, I'll invite other people, but if someone indicates that it's a two-person hangout, I won't.
As for your friend's pity: ouch. It's true she may not mean it to be condescending, but that doesn't mean it doesn't sting. I always remember a friend of mine saying, in effect, that she was bitter that I had a boyfriend and she didn't. Apparently, in college when she was single, she used to think, "Well, at least mlle valentine is single," and now that I have a boyfriend, she can't do that anymore. I have not really been as close to her ever since she shared that with me.
I think the dealbreaker for me would be that the boyfriend is judgmental and makes you feel uncomfortable. You shouldn't have to put up with that. Other commenters have given you good scripts for asking your friend to hang out one on one. I'd give her one more shot at that, but if she brings him again, I'd try to disengage.
posted by mlle valentine at 8:21 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
As for your friend's pity: ouch. It's true she may not mean it to be condescending, but that doesn't mean it doesn't sting. I always remember a friend of mine saying, in effect, that she was bitter that I had a boyfriend and she didn't. Apparently, in college when she was single, she used to think, "Well, at least mlle valentine is single," and now that I have a boyfriend, she can't do that anymore. I have not really been as close to her ever since she shared that with me.
I think the dealbreaker for me would be that the boyfriend is judgmental and makes you feel uncomfortable. You shouldn't have to put up with that. Other commenters have given you good scripts for asking your friend to hang out one on one. I'd give her one more shot at that, but if she brings him again, I'd try to disengage.
posted by mlle valentine at 8:21 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would try one more time - just saying, "I would really like some alone time, just you and me... let's try to do [x] without the boy?" and see what happens.
I think you are right that it probably isn't meant to be rude or mean, but it's still insensitive to not make an effort to try to accommodate your preference for alone time. At the same time, if this has been a long-running pattern she may have a hard time understanding why things are different now.
I do wonder if she knows that you don't care for her boyfriend and hopes that bringing him along will bring the two of you closer together. This is something I recently endured. It's sadly boneheaded but well-intentioned and usually does not work.
posted by sm1tten at 9:27 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think you are right that it probably isn't meant to be rude or mean, but it's still insensitive to not make an effort to try to accommodate your preference for alone time. At the same time, if this has been a long-running pattern she may have a hard time understanding why things are different now.
I do wonder if she knows that you don't care for her boyfriend and hopes that bringing him along will bring the two of you closer together. This is something I recently endured. It's sadly boneheaded but well-intentioned and usually does not work.
posted by sm1tten at 9:27 PM on June 11, 2012 [1 favorite]
2.) They're very heavy on the PDA. Holding hands, gazing lovingly into eyes, kissing constantly. It is frankly uncomfortable to me to be the third person standing on the edge of that. Am I supposed to look away? Smile approvingly? Pine and wish for same? It's just awkward.
I love hanging out with some couples, but not those who do crazy PDA. Or other annoying "couple affirming" behaviors like fake arguing and fake making up. If they've been together for a while and you guys are in your mid-twenties, then I think your friend and her boyfriend are a bit socially clueless.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 11:31 PM on June 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
I love hanging out with some couples, but not those who do crazy PDA. Or other annoying "couple affirming" behaviors like fake arguing and fake making up. If they've been together for a while and you guys are in your mid-twenties, then I think your friend and her boyfriend are a bit socially clueless.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 11:31 PM on June 11, 2012 [2 favorites]
definitely speak to her about it once more. i'd probably say something like, "hey, i don't mind hanging out with you and bf every once in awhile, but i really miss hanging out, just you and me. i literally don't remember the last time we did that. can we do that more often? maybe specify whether something will be just you and me or me, you and him so there's no confusion?" don't bother with the "girls outing" type things if you aren't into it. that sets a precedent that those should be the only things you do when you hang out with her alone.
then if she shows up with her bf again to something that is supposed to be just you and her, leave. seriously. if you feel the need to say something, just say something like, "we agreed this would just be you and me. clearly, that's not the case, so let's do this again when it is the case." and then leave.
you may just have to accept that you might see less of your friend if she continues to insiste he comes to things. i had a couple of friends like this in the past who would virtually disappear every time they got into new relationships. i wouldn't see them for months, sometimes years, and then all of a sudden, after they broke up with their bfs, they want to hang out all the time—until the next boyfriend came along. emphasis on "had a couple of friends like this…"
posted by violetk at 11:57 PM on June 11, 2012
then if she shows up with her bf again to something that is supposed to be just you and her, leave. seriously. if you feel the need to say something, just say something like, "we agreed this would just be you and me. clearly, that's not the case, so let's do this again when it is the case." and then leave.
you may just have to accept that you might see less of your friend if she continues to insiste he comes to things. i had a couple of friends like this in the past who would virtually disappear every time they got into new relationships. i wouldn't see them for months, sometimes years, and then all of a sudden, after they broke up with their bfs, they want to hang out all the time—until the next boyfriend came along. emphasis on "had a couple of friends like this…"
posted by violetk at 11:57 PM on June 11, 2012
Re: 11:31 PM
Yeah, some couples are substantially less than the sum of their parts. In any social situation, you have to sense whether you're making people uncomfortable (if their opinion matters to you)—and, within reason, adjust.
But some people are stupid—they monopolize a situation, make it all about themselves. I guess it can happen in couple form, too, where they almost want an audience to help constantly affirm them (even if they don't do that as individuals).
posted by evil holiday magic at 1:20 AM on June 12, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yeah, some couples are substantially less than the sum of their parts. In any social situation, you have to sense whether you're making people uncomfortable (if their opinion matters to you)—and, within reason, adjust.
But some people are stupid—they monopolize a situation, make it all about themselves. I guess it can happen in couple form, too, where they almost want an audience to help constantly affirm them (even if they don't do that as individuals).
posted by evil holiday magic at 1:20 AM on June 12, 2012 [1 favorite]
I have actually told her once before that I would prefer our hangouts to be just us. She said she was sorry, that she knows we can't talk as freely when he's there and knows she should ask before she brings him along. But it didn't change.
So you're thinking of letting go of the friendship, but how clear have you actually been about how much this bothers you? The way you phrase this, that there was one time you "actually" told her that you'd "prefer" for things just to be the two of you, makes me suspect that you may have been pretty tentative about this and she may not have a good sense of how big a deal this is to you.
There's a huge difference between a heart-to-heart where you tell her how much you miss spending time with just her and you don't really enjoy it when it's the three of you and you feel like you're losing your friendship... and a softball that's more along the lines of "It's great to spend time with you and boyfriend together, but it'd be nice to do things with just the two of us occasionally too, don't you think?" If she blows you off after the first, it's a pretty clear sign about where her priorities lie, although I'd argue you still should have at least one more conversation before giving up on the friendship. But in the latter case, while it's still inconsiderate to ignore your preferences, if she really doesn't get that this is seriously a big deal to you-- and that gets reinforced when she keeps bringing him and you keep letting it slide and you never follow up on it again-- then it doesn't seem like the kind of callous disregard for your feelings that leads one to give up on their best friend without even telling them what's going on. (She may be thinking "I want to spend time with Boyfriend and I want to spend time with Friend, and I know that ideally Friend would prefer for it just to be the two of us, but that would end up meaning I'd spend less time with Friend overall if I have to juggle the timing which sucks because of how much I like Friend, and surely she'd rather see me more often with him rather than less often without him, right? Although she's right that it would be fun to spend time one-on-one again, I'm sure we'll fit that in sometime soon...")
(Also, do you ask if she's bringing him and she says no and then does it anyway? Or does she just not explicitly mention it and then you consider it bringing him without telling you? Because at this point it seems like enough of a pattern that the logical assumption is that when she says "I'm coming" she means "we're coming," and she may figure that it's understood without needing to spell it out for you that he's coming too because obviously you're smart enough to notice that he always comes.)
If you haven't been absolutely clear with her that your friendship and closeness is in jeopardy here and you really need some one-on-one time with her, then I'd say yes, bring it up again. Ideally in a pretty honest conversation-- you don't need to say you don't like him, you can even fudge the truth and say "he's a great guy, but...", but then level with her and tell her you've given it a lot of time and tried to enjoy his company but you just don't have that much fun when he's around. But if you feel like it's a bad idea to even say that much, then at least be very clear with her about how much you miss the one-on-one time and what it's doing to your friendship. That you always really loved spending time with her, but the dynamics are totally different with 3 people versus 2, and you feel like your closeness is starting to slip away, and it would hurt terribly to lose her friendship and you don't want that to happen, so what can the two of you do to address it by carving out time for the two of you?
And then on the day-to-day level-- and you can do this even if you feel too conflict-averse to have the conversation above, although I'd really recommend it-- start trying to schedule things that only the two of you would like, or things that work better for only two people. And/or set up some recurring plans that are "your thing" for just the two of you. And when you guys make plans, if you're not already, then for goodness sakes ask explicitly if he'll be coming, and if she says yes say something like "I was really hoping it would be just the two of us-- could we do that instead? Or else if we go ahead with the three of us doing X, can you and I schedule some time just the two of us next week to do Y?" (Or if you're the one initiating the plans, you have every right to say explicitly "Hey, do you want to do X? Just you, not Boyfriend this time.")
posted by EmilyClimbs at 8:07 AM on June 12, 2012
So you're thinking of letting go of the friendship, but how clear have you actually been about how much this bothers you? The way you phrase this, that there was one time you "actually" told her that you'd "prefer" for things just to be the two of you, makes me suspect that you may have been pretty tentative about this and she may not have a good sense of how big a deal this is to you.
There's a huge difference between a heart-to-heart where you tell her how much you miss spending time with just her and you don't really enjoy it when it's the three of you and you feel like you're losing your friendship... and a softball that's more along the lines of "It's great to spend time with you and boyfriend together, but it'd be nice to do things with just the two of us occasionally too, don't you think?" If she blows you off after the first, it's a pretty clear sign about where her priorities lie, although I'd argue you still should have at least one more conversation before giving up on the friendship. But in the latter case, while it's still inconsiderate to ignore your preferences, if she really doesn't get that this is seriously a big deal to you-- and that gets reinforced when she keeps bringing him and you keep letting it slide and you never follow up on it again-- then it doesn't seem like the kind of callous disregard for your feelings that leads one to give up on their best friend without even telling them what's going on. (She may be thinking "I want to spend time with Boyfriend and I want to spend time with Friend, and I know that ideally Friend would prefer for it just to be the two of us, but that would end up meaning I'd spend less time with Friend overall if I have to juggle the timing which sucks because of how much I like Friend, and surely she'd rather see me more often with him rather than less often without him, right? Although she's right that it would be fun to spend time one-on-one again, I'm sure we'll fit that in sometime soon...")
(Also, do you ask if she's bringing him and she says no and then does it anyway? Or does she just not explicitly mention it and then you consider it bringing him without telling you? Because at this point it seems like enough of a pattern that the logical assumption is that when she says "I'm coming" she means "we're coming," and she may figure that it's understood without needing to spell it out for you that he's coming too because obviously you're smart enough to notice that he always comes.)
If you haven't been absolutely clear with her that your friendship and closeness is in jeopardy here and you really need some one-on-one time with her, then I'd say yes, bring it up again. Ideally in a pretty honest conversation-- you don't need to say you don't like him, you can even fudge the truth and say "he's a great guy, but...", but then level with her and tell her you've given it a lot of time and tried to enjoy his company but you just don't have that much fun when he's around. But if you feel like it's a bad idea to even say that much, then at least be very clear with her about how much you miss the one-on-one time and what it's doing to your friendship. That you always really loved spending time with her, but the dynamics are totally different with 3 people versus 2, and you feel like your closeness is starting to slip away, and it would hurt terribly to lose her friendship and you don't want that to happen, so what can the two of you do to address it by carving out time for the two of you?
And then on the day-to-day level-- and you can do this even if you feel too conflict-averse to have the conversation above, although I'd really recommend it-- start trying to schedule things that only the two of you would like, or things that work better for only two people. And/or set up some recurring plans that are "your thing" for just the two of you. And when you guys make plans, if you're not already, then for goodness sakes ask explicitly if he'll be coming, and if she says yes say something like "I was really hoping it would be just the two of us-- could we do that instead? Or else if we go ahead with the three of us doing X, can you and I schedule some time just the two of us next week to do Y?" (Or if you're the one initiating the plans, you have every right to say explicitly "Hey, do you want to do X? Just you, not Boyfriend this time.")
posted by EmilyClimbs at 8:07 AM on June 12, 2012
It sometimes has to be explicitly stated. Just calling it Girls Night may not work, because then its "hey, I brought Boyfriend along for Girls Night! Isn't that funny, and isn't he great for not being embarrassed?" You may have to say "hey, we're best friends, lets do something just the two of us." If she can't handle that, its her problem, not yours.
You do know that if/when they break up, it'll be your shoulder she's crying on, so even though we watch our friends get overly involved in their relationships, we have to try not to take it personally and be there for them if/when they need it. Hard to do sometimes... I've "written off" a couple of my friends as you are doing here, but if/when their relationship crumbles, I'll be there to chase the bottom of the bottle with em.
And if/when that happens, she'll wake up and be plenty sorry for how she's acting presently.
posted by el_yucateco at 8:26 AM on June 12, 2012
You do know that if/when they break up, it'll be your shoulder she's crying on, so even though we watch our friends get overly involved in their relationships, we have to try not to take it personally and be there for them if/when they need it. Hard to do sometimes... I've "written off" a couple of my friends as you are doing here, but if/when their relationship crumbles, I'll be there to chase the bottom of the bottle with em.
And if/when that happens, she'll wake up and be plenty sorry for how she's acting presently.
posted by el_yucateco at 8:26 AM on June 12, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
Your real best friend wouldn't ignore your stated feelings.
posted by tommasz at 5:45 PM on June 11, 2012 [7 favorites]