The hardest thing I've ever had to do.
December 4, 2008 10:04 AM Subscribe
[Relationship/divorce Filter] Long story, short list of questions inside.
I grew up poor. Like, food stamps and government cheese (literally) poor. When I was 16 I fell "in love" with a woman who became my wife. She showered me with gifts and paid for our dates. In retrospect, I feel that and the fact that she was very pretty, was the reason I thought I was in love.
About a year after we'd started dating she confided in me. Her doctors had told her she'd likely never be able to have children. Her Doctor had warned her that if she ever could have children, it would have to be when she was pretty young by societies standards. She confessed that she wanted to have a baby and didn't care if she was judged for it, she asked me to get her pregnant. Initially, I flat out refused. Over the next few weeks she explained more and more about her medical condition. She'd had surgery to remove some cysts on her ovaries, the procedure had destroyed nearly all of her eggs, due to that procedure, it was unlikely she could conceive. She cried as she told me she felt her body was telling her, "Now!" for the only chance of a baby.
You have probably guessed, we had the child. While she was pregnant we had the typical arguments that those not well matched have. Arguments on money were actually the less common, but a recurring theme was the fact I didn't show her enough affection, and she didn't respect me/my views. At that time, I felt there was only one person for each person and if she threatened to leave I did whatever it took to change her mind. One night she said she was tired of me not showing her enough affection (I remember the situation quite clearly, I had helped her make dinner, we at together, then I let her know I was going to play on our PC for an hour before we played a board game together (monopoly if it matters). After about 30 minutes of playing she stormed into the room and advised me that she couldn't live with someone who could put a video game before her (she didn't protest when I mentioned I was going to play...). She said she was going to go to sit on some nearby railroad tracks and wait for a train to end it all. It was a cold February day, there were about 6 inches of snow on the ground. I was barefoot, in boxers and a t-shirt when she walked out the door. I didn't hesitated to chase after her. I spent the better part of half an hour begging her to come back inside. When we finally did return to the house my feet were in extreme pain, it took me hours of lukewarm water to get feeling to return.
Due to some pretty strict religious beliefs*, I didn't see separation as an option, but from that night on I realized, "I'm pretty much done with this..."
After our first child was born she advised me she couldn't get pregnant while she was breastfeeding. Doing my own research debunked this and I used protection. A few months later she began birth control. 1 year later she was pregnant again, she explained the pill must have failed.
At the time she got pregnant again, I was seriously considering leaving (in spite of those religious beliefs). Duty bound to care for her and our children I stayed.
Through all of this I worked dead end jobs for barely over minimum wage, she didn't work but went to college and earned her degree. Our original plan was for me to attend college after she finished. (Side not here, when I was 17 and starting my softmore year I was fed up with a specific school situation and dropped out, then earned my GED. I should probably include, the GED stigma probably doesn't apply to me. I'm an intelligent individual who has excelled even in my current job in the professional world.)
Our original plan was for her to finish college and get a good job, then I could quit working and finish college. At one point, after my second son was born, she must have sensed my... uneasiness... about our relationship. She set me down and explained that if I were to ever leave her, she would commit suicide.
Since then we've been together for remainder 8 years and had a third child. (Another accident.) Any time divorce was mentioned she had a simple reply, "You know what that means for me, right?" (suicide) During other arguments she would prompt, "Would you prefer I just killed myself? Would that make things easier?!" Of course, I always have made it VERY clear that I'd never want to see her die. Our children would never want to see her die. She has friends and family who lover her and wouldn't want to lose her. Even if we didn't stay married, what we shared would never be capable of being duplicated and I wouldn't want her to die.
About a year ago I had a major discovery. While talking to her Mom I mentioned the fact we were lucky she was able to conceive so many children (or even at all). He mom's face turned to a mask of confusion. I explained that with the surgery on her cysts, we were lucky she was able to conceive since that would cause so many problems conceiving. She looked sad and explained, she'd been there for those surgeries, the doctor had never said that my wife would have problems conceiving. (My wife and been a minor and living at home during that time. I hadn't even met her yet.)
For over a year I carried this. I started piecing together the lies I'd proven over the years. (At one point her friend vandalized our apartment. After some sleuthing on my part I discovered it hadn't been her friend, it had been my wife framing her friend. (Luckily?), we hadn't filed a police report.) The other incidents were more minor than this, but still, years of lies.
I began to wonder if the other two pregnancies were accidents after all...
A few weeks ago I confronted my wife. At first she denied everything, but then I began laying out my evidence. Suddenly she confessed, the lie that led to our first child was a premeditated attempt to "lock me in" to her. Ditto with the second. The third child was indeed an accident, but she was glad it happened when it did. She admitted to the lies I knew of and some I didn't. (One additional lie was that she couldn't find a job one quarter she took off. During that time I was working two jobs to make ends meet.) I confessed that I was not in love with her and explained that there is no one else that I'm in love with, just... I've felt betrayed and can't be in love with her. She's accepted that and said she hopes I fall back in love.
I told her that, given the situation, I didn't see any chance of our relationship working out. She begged me to go to couples counseling and I agreed it would probably be best. (I haven't told her that my reason for wanting that counseling is to make this as clean and amicable break as possible, due to the suicide concerns.)
We won't be starting that until mid to late Jan. (My idea to delay it a bit, I lied to her and said we were too busy this time of year, in actuality I'd simply prefer we didn't ruin this time of year and make it a bad memory for my children.)
Last night I voiced this aloud for the first time (to my best friend). Since then, I've been struggling. I know this is over. I will not be able to trust her again, ever. I really think that involving a counselor (we've lined up a psychiatrist) in the conversation where I reveal my intentions to move on will be the safest for her.
There are a few other sacrifices I've made for her.
A. I didn't move with a good paying job because she couldn't deal with being away from her parents. This was a job that to this day I miss and loved. (I'm not happy at my current job... at all.)
B. We life a FULL hour from where I work. I wanted to move closer, to her that was NEVER an option. There were no compromises on her side. The city I work it is probably the only city within 100 miles I can work in and make the money that I do.
C. I've given up almost every friend because, invariably, there is an argument between her and them and...how can a man not back his wife?
Finally, my questions.
1. Am I right to wait rather than tell her now?
2. How do I look her in the eye/interact with her now that I've acknowledged it's over? I knew before but the words seem to imbue the feeling with more emotion.
3. Can I leave her and still maintain the sense of honor I feel I've worked hard to maintain for years?
4. How do you deal with a house when neither of you can afford the payments on your own?
5. (This one almost certainly will be addressed by the counselor, but I want to ask for opinions here too.) How do we tell our kids?
6. What am I forgetting to ask? What advice can you offer?
I'm reading the other threads related to similar situations, but I'd like your opinion on MY situation.
*Note: I'm an atheist now, through and through.
I grew up poor. Like, food stamps and government cheese (literally) poor. When I was 16 I fell "in love" with a woman who became my wife. She showered me with gifts and paid for our dates. In retrospect, I feel that and the fact that she was very pretty, was the reason I thought I was in love.
About a year after we'd started dating she confided in me. Her doctors had told her she'd likely never be able to have children. Her Doctor had warned her that if she ever could have children, it would have to be when she was pretty young by societies standards. She confessed that she wanted to have a baby and didn't care if she was judged for it, she asked me to get her pregnant. Initially, I flat out refused. Over the next few weeks she explained more and more about her medical condition. She'd had surgery to remove some cysts on her ovaries, the procedure had destroyed nearly all of her eggs, due to that procedure, it was unlikely she could conceive. She cried as she told me she felt her body was telling her, "Now!" for the only chance of a baby.
You have probably guessed, we had the child. While she was pregnant we had the typical arguments that those not well matched have. Arguments on money were actually the less common, but a recurring theme was the fact I didn't show her enough affection, and she didn't respect me/my views. At that time, I felt there was only one person for each person and if she threatened to leave I did whatever it took to change her mind. One night she said she was tired of me not showing her enough affection (I remember the situation quite clearly, I had helped her make dinner, we at together, then I let her know I was going to play on our PC for an hour before we played a board game together (monopoly if it matters). After about 30 minutes of playing she stormed into the room and advised me that she couldn't live with someone who could put a video game before her (she didn't protest when I mentioned I was going to play...). She said she was going to go to sit on some nearby railroad tracks and wait for a train to end it all. It was a cold February day, there were about 6 inches of snow on the ground. I was barefoot, in boxers and a t-shirt when she walked out the door. I didn't hesitated to chase after her. I spent the better part of half an hour begging her to come back inside. When we finally did return to the house my feet were in extreme pain, it took me hours of lukewarm water to get feeling to return.
Due to some pretty strict religious beliefs*, I didn't see separation as an option, but from that night on I realized, "I'm pretty much done with this..."
After our first child was born she advised me she couldn't get pregnant while she was breastfeeding. Doing my own research debunked this and I used protection. A few months later she began birth control. 1 year later she was pregnant again, she explained the pill must have failed.
At the time she got pregnant again, I was seriously considering leaving (in spite of those religious beliefs). Duty bound to care for her and our children I stayed.
Through all of this I worked dead end jobs for barely over minimum wage, she didn't work but went to college and earned her degree. Our original plan was for me to attend college after she finished. (Side not here, when I was 17 and starting my softmore year I was fed up with a specific school situation and dropped out, then earned my GED. I should probably include, the GED stigma probably doesn't apply to me. I'm an intelligent individual who has excelled even in my current job in the professional world.)
Our original plan was for her to finish college and get a good job, then I could quit working and finish college. At one point, after my second son was born, she must have sensed my... uneasiness... about our relationship. She set me down and explained that if I were to ever leave her, she would commit suicide.
Since then we've been together for remainder 8 years and had a third child. (Another accident.) Any time divorce was mentioned she had a simple reply, "You know what that means for me, right?" (suicide) During other arguments she would prompt, "Would you prefer I just killed myself? Would that make things easier?!" Of course, I always have made it VERY clear that I'd never want to see her die. Our children would never want to see her die. She has friends and family who lover her and wouldn't want to lose her. Even if we didn't stay married, what we shared would never be capable of being duplicated and I wouldn't want her to die.
About a year ago I had a major discovery. While talking to her Mom I mentioned the fact we were lucky she was able to conceive so many children (or even at all). He mom's face turned to a mask of confusion. I explained that with the surgery on her cysts, we were lucky she was able to conceive since that would cause so many problems conceiving. She looked sad and explained, she'd been there for those surgeries, the doctor had never said that my wife would have problems conceiving. (My wife and been a minor and living at home during that time. I hadn't even met her yet.)
For over a year I carried this. I started piecing together the lies I'd proven over the years. (At one point her friend vandalized our apartment. After some sleuthing on my part I discovered it hadn't been her friend, it had been my wife framing her friend. (Luckily?), we hadn't filed a police report.) The other incidents were more minor than this, but still, years of lies.
I began to wonder if the other two pregnancies were accidents after all...
A few weeks ago I confronted my wife. At first she denied everything, but then I began laying out my evidence. Suddenly she confessed, the lie that led to our first child was a premeditated attempt to "lock me in" to her. Ditto with the second. The third child was indeed an accident, but she was glad it happened when it did. She admitted to the lies I knew of and some I didn't. (One additional lie was that she couldn't find a job one quarter she took off. During that time I was working two jobs to make ends meet.) I confessed that I was not in love with her and explained that there is no one else that I'm in love with, just... I've felt betrayed and can't be in love with her. She's accepted that and said she hopes I fall back in love.
I told her that, given the situation, I didn't see any chance of our relationship working out. She begged me to go to couples counseling and I agreed it would probably be best. (I haven't told her that my reason for wanting that counseling is to make this as clean and amicable break as possible, due to the suicide concerns.)
We won't be starting that until mid to late Jan. (My idea to delay it a bit, I lied to her and said we were too busy this time of year, in actuality I'd simply prefer we didn't ruin this time of year and make it a bad memory for my children.)
Last night I voiced this aloud for the first time (to my best friend). Since then, I've been struggling. I know this is over. I will not be able to trust her again, ever. I really think that involving a counselor (we've lined up a psychiatrist) in the conversation where I reveal my intentions to move on will be the safest for her.
There are a few other sacrifices I've made for her.
A. I didn't move with a good paying job because she couldn't deal with being away from her parents. This was a job that to this day I miss and loved. (I'm not happy at my current job... at all.)
B. We life a FULL hour from where I work. I wanted to move closer, to her that was NEVER an option. There were no compromises on her side. The city I work it is probably the only city within 100 miles I can work in and make the money that I do.
C. I've given up almost every friend because, invariably, there is an argument between her and them and...how can a man not back his wife?
Finally, my questions.
1. Am I right to wait rather than tell her now?
2. How do I look her in the eye/interact with her now that I've acknowledged it's over? I knew before but the words seem to imbue the feeling with more emotion.
3. Can I leave her and still maintain the sense of honor I feel I've worked hard to maintain for years?
4. How do you deal with a house when neither of you can afford the payments on your own?
5. (This one almost certainly will be addressed by the counselor, but I want to ask for opinions here too.) How do we tell our kids?
6. What am I forgetting to ask? What advice can you offer?
I'm reading the other threads related to similar situations, but I'd like your opinion on MY situation.
*Note: I'm an atheist now, through and through.
I am usually all about being open and honest and straightforward with the other person but in your case I suggest getting legal advice first, before you say anything to your wife or to a marriage counselor or to anyone else. You have three children to think about, and you need to make a plan for the next stage of your life in place before your wife makes that plan for you.
Also, read No More Mr. Nice Guy.
posted by headnsouth at 10:21 AM on December 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
Also, read No More Mr. Nice Guy.
posted by headnsouth at 10:21 AM on December 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
In addition to a couple's counseling, you need to start seeing your own therapist. You also need to be prepared to fight for full custody of your children, because she will inflict her craziness and emotional blackmail on them, especially if you pursue a divorce (which you absolutely should). It will be hard, but it will certainly be honorable. Besides, if she has custody, you will be paying immense amounts of child support anyway.
posted by kimdog at 10:23 AM on December 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by kimdog at 10:23 AM on December 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
You're going to get a lawyer, right? Lawyer lawyer lawyer? Because it sounds like your wife is CRAZY, and you should ensure you get visiting rights. I am very sorry to say that given that your wife has the college education, the better-paying job, and she's a mom, she will probably get primary custody.
Also--please understand that from here the suicide threats sound like crazy manipulative tactics, not like actual suicidal tendencies.
posted by Anonymous at 10:25 AM on December 4, 2008
Also--please understand that from here the suicide threats sound like crazy manipulative tactics, not like actual suicidal tendencies.
posted by Anonymous at 10:25 AM on December 4, 2008
You are in an abusive relationship. Honor is taking care of yourself and not raising your children in one. You need a domestic abuse counselor and a lawyer, probably in that order or she's going to go get on the roof every time you make a move (because it works, not because she's going to jump).
Help yourself, help your kids. Your wife's choices are her own.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:25 AM on December 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
Help yourself, help your kids. Your wife's choices are her own.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:25 AM on December 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
Well, for starters, stop having sex with her. You might have already, but I just wanted to put it out there.
I think if you reach out to your friends that she alienated, you will be surprised about how many of them are still worried about you and would want to support you.
posted by spec80 at 10:31 AM on December 4, 2008 [3 favorites]
I think if you reach out to your friends that she alienated, you will be surprised about how many of them are still worried about you and would want to support you.
posted by spec80 at 10:31 AM on December 4, 2008 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Your sense of honour? Regardless of what's gone on before, the fact that you are trying very hard to handle this terrible situation with class and sensitivity makes me think that you'll validate your sense of honour over and over again in this relationship. If you listen to that little voice inside you that's asking if you're doing the right thing, you will try your hardest to do just that.
Write something down, right now, detailing what's happened and why you want to split. Everything. Get a livejournal and post it as a series of private entries if you're concerned about putting something down on paper that might be used against you. Your soon to be ex is manipulative and narcissistic. She will use every tool of guilt and shame she can to get the upper hand in this situation. There are moments in even the friendliest divorce where one or the other of the parties starts second-guessing themselves and wondering if they've done the right thing. If you have something you can reread at the points where you're questioning your choice to divorce, or when you start wondering if it really was all that bad, after all.
posted by Grrlscout at 10:32 AM on December 4, 2008
Write something down, right now, detailing what's happened and why you want to split. Everything. Get a livejournal and post it as a series of private entries if you're concerned about putting something down on paper that might be used against you. Your soon to be ex is manipulative and narcissistic. She will use every tool of guilt and shame she can to get the upper hand in this situation. There are moments in even the friendliest divorce where one or the other of the parties starts second-guessing themselves and wondering if they've done the right thing. If you have something you can reread at the points where you're questioning your choice to divorce, or when you start wondering if it really was all that bad, after all.
posted by Grrlscout at 10:32 AM on December 4, 2008
First, take your (real?) name out of your profile, for when this all ends up in court. You don't want your internet postings somehow used against you. (IANAL, but I've heard stories.)
Second, it's obvious she's manipulated you to the point where you're constantly questioning yourself. This is called crazymaking. From an outside perspective, you've been more than honorable. Putting the kids first - even though you didn't deliberately choose to have them - is the most honorable thing a father can do.
As for the house, my understanding is that it's usually sold as a part of the divorce proceedings. Obviously each of you will need to find your own housing.
Are your parents involved in their grandchildren's lives? How much help can your family offer?
Has your wife ever been diagnosed with depression, bipolar, etc? I hope this would weight the custody battle in your favor, but then again I was raised by someone who had actually attempted suicide before the divorce, so maybe the courts just don't care.
posted by desjardins at 10:40 AM on December 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
Second, it's obvious she's manipulated you to the point where you're constantly questioning yourself. This is called crazymaking. From an outside perspective, you've been more than honorable. Putting the kids first - even though you didn't deliberately choose to have them - is the most honorable thing a father can do.
As for the house, my understanding is that it's usually sold as a part of the divorce proceedings. Obviously each of you will need to find your own housing.
Are your parents involved in their grandchildren's lives? How much help can your family offer?
Has your wife ever been diagnosed with depression, bipolar, etc? I hope this would weight the custody battle in your favor, but then again I was raised by someone who had actually attempted suicide before the divorce, so maybe the courts just don't care.
posted by desjardins at 10:40 AM on December 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
First, get to a lawyer TODAY.
You are an honorable man. Know that. I don't know you, but at least in your darker hours know that there is a woman sitting out there saying, "You are honorable."
You have been used, abused, emotionally abused over a long term basis. I have watched the whole "if you leave me I'll commit suicide" thing with other male friends. It makes me so mad I want to spit. In your case, the pathological lies and the betrayal of trust are beyond unconscionable.
you do not need couple's counseling. Save the money. you already know your relationship is over. She needs a therapist, for the good of your children, and you need a therapist to help you make sense of this. The reason I am very much against the couple's counseling is that you are not trying to save the relationship. You are trying to save yourself and your children. Also, you don't want to get into a situation where the counselor takes her side against you. (That happened to me, when I was in an abusive situation. The counselor flat out said she didn't believe me when I related the one physical abuse case that had just happened.)
I echo everyone else when I say, "get a lawyer NOW." NOW. Not later, not tomorrow, NOW. She is dishonest and manipulative. You have already seen that she will stop at nothing.
Sleep on the couch or in the guest room. You can explain it to the kids by saying that daddy doesn't feel well and he wants to make sure mommy can sleep. You need to learn how to not give into her craziness. It will not be easy. A therapist can help you with this.
I don't pray much, but I am praying for your and your kids.
posted by micawber at 10:51 AM on December 4, 2008 [7 favorites]
You are an honorable man. Know that. I don't know you, but at least in your darker hours know that there is a woman sitting out there saying, "You are honorable."
You have been used, abused, emotionally abused over a long term basis. I have watched the whole "if you leave me I'll commit suicide" thing with other male friends. It makes me so mad I want to spit. In your case, the pathological lies and the betrayal of trust are beyond unconscionable.
you do not need couple's counseling. Save the money. you already know your relationship is over. She needs a therapist, for the good of your children, and you need a therapist to help you make sense of this. The reason I am very much against the couple's counseling is that you are not trying to save the relationship. You are trying to save yourself and your children. Also, you don't want to get into a situation where the counselor takes her side against you. (That happened to me, when I was in an abusive situation. The counselor flat out said she didn't believe me when I related the one physical abuse case that had just happened.)
I echo everyone else when I say, "get a lawyer NOW." NOW. Not later, not tomorrow, NOW. She is dishonest and manipulative. You have already seen that she will stop at nothing.
Sleep on the couch or in the guest room. You can explain it to the kids by saying that daddy doesn't feel well and he wants to make sure mommy can sleep. You need to learn how to not give into her craziness. It will not be easy. A therapist can help you with this.
I don't pray much, but I am praying for your and your kids.
posted by micawber at 10:51 AM on December 4, 2008 [7 favorites]
DTMFA. Get a lawyer. Get out of that toxic relationship. You really need us to tell you this?! Really?
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:09 AM on December 4, 2008
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:09 AM on December 4, 2008
I think if you reach out to your friends that she alienated, you will be surprised about how many of them are still worried about you and would want to support you.
This bears repeating. You are by no means the only person in the world who has found themselves in this situation, and your friends are most likely waiting for you to finally get the divorce.
I would also like to reiterate two other points:
1) She has lied to you and manipulated you in the past, and it is likely to get much much worse in the coming months. This will *not* be an amicable divorce. Lawyer up and prepare for the worst now -- what's the phrase? "Never start a fight, but always be prepared to end one."
2) You have an obligation to your kids that trumps your obligation to your wedding vows. Your wife is an adult and is ultimately responsible for her own life; your kids have only you to depend on.
posted by tkolar at 11:12 AM on December 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
This bears repeating. You are by no means the only person in the world who has found themselves in this situation, and your friends are most likely waiting for you to finally get the divorce.
I would also like to reiterate two other points:
1) She has lied to you and manipulated you in the past, and it is likely to get much much worse in the coming months. This will *not* be an amicable divorce. Lawyer up and prepare for the worst now -- what's the phrase? "Never start a fight, but always be prepared to end one."
2) You have an obligation to your kids that trumps your obligation to your wedding vows. Your wife is an adult and is ultimately responsible for her own life; your kids have only you to depend on.
posted by tkolar at 11:12 AM on December 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
Best answer: 1. Am I right to wait rather than tell her now?
I think so, especially since you will want the help of a professional to do that.
2. How do I look her in the eye/interact with her now that I've acknowledged it's over? I knew before but the words seem to imbue the feeling with more emotion.
remember that she is a flawed, damaged human being and you being compassionate to her is probably the kindest thing. Treat her as you would someone with a physical handicap--actually picture her in a wheelchair or hospital if it helps. She is not a whole person, so you can't expect her to behave as such.
3. Can I leave her and still maintain the sense of honor I feel I've worked hard to maintain for years?
It's probably the only way to keep living honorably, for yourself and your children.
4. How do you deal with a house when neither of you can afford the payments on your own?
Typically you sell it and split the proceeds/debts, and you both make other housing arrangements.
5. (This one almost certainly will be addressed by the counselor, but I want to ask for opinions here too.) How do we tell our kids?
love, love, love, love, love. We love you, will always love you, we can't choose not to. And yes, the counselor will be a great help in this. Make sure you are not making them live with grown-up problems or helping to make grown-up decisions. Model for them the behavior you'd be proud of if you had to watch them navigate this situation.
6. What am I forgetting to ask? What advice can you offer?
Be so, so careful here. The system can be so unfair to fathers. get a lawyer, even before you see the counselor, and be sure you feel comfortable with his/her handle on your situation. If not, keep shopping. You get one shot here--you must be meticulous about how you proceed. It's pretty clear this will not stay amicable.
I truly wish you the best of luck.
posted by agentwills at 11:16 AM on December 4, 2008
I think so, especially since you will want the help of a professional to do that.
2. How do I look her in the eye/interact with her now that I've acknowledged it's over? I knew before but the words seem to imbue the feeling with more emotion.
remember that she is a flawed, damaged human being and you being compassionate to her is probably the kindest thing. Treat her as you would someone with a physical handicap--actually picture her in a wheelchair or hospital if it helps. She is not a whole person, so you can't expect her to behave as such.
3. Can I leave her and still maintain the sense of honor I feel I've worked hard to maintain for years?
It's probably the only way to keep living honorably, for yourself and your children.
4. How do you deal with a house when neither of you can afford the payments on your own?
Typically you sell it and split the proceeds/debts, and you both make other housing arrangements.
5. (This one almost certainly will be addressed by the counselor, but I want to ask for opinions here too.) How do we tell our kids?
love, love, love, love, love. We love you, will always love you, we can't choose not to. And yes, the counselor will be a great help in this. Make sure you are not making them live with grown-up problems or helping to make grown-up decisions. Model for them the behavior you'd be proud of if you had to watch them navigate this situation.
6. What am I forgetting to ask? What advice can you offer?
Be so, so careful here. The system can be so unfair to fathers. get a lawyer, even before you see the counselor, and be sure you feel comfortable with his/her handle on your situation. If not, keep shopping. You get one shot here--you must be meticulous about how you proceed. It's pretty clear this will not stay amicable.
I truly wish you the best of luck.
posted by agentwills at 11:16 AM on December 4, 2008
I don't throw around the word "abuse" lightly. But it's clear to me that you've been abused by this woman for a very long time. Her suicide blackmail strategy is disgusting. She is not acting the way people who love their spouses are supposed to act. This is not normal.
Take care of yourself and your kids. You are not responsible for your wife's actions. Please find your own therapist and a lawyer and yes, if that is your real name in your profile, remove it right away (and stop having sex with her unless you want her pregnant again!)
posted by desuetude at 11:18 AM on December 4, 2008
Take care of yourself and your kids. You are not responsible for your wife's actions. Please find your own therapist and a lawyer and yes, if that is your real name in your profile, remove it right away (and stop having sex with her unless you want her pregnant again!)
posted by desuetude at 11:18 AM on December 4, 2008
Your wife is most likely mentally ill. There is no hope for your marriage until she recognizes that fact and agrees to get help. You will probably be better off living separately for the time being.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:21 AM on December 4, 2008
posted by KokuRyu at 11:21 AM on December 4, 2008
Best answer: 1. Am I right to wait rather than tell her now?
Yes, I believe you should wait. Firstly, for your children. Not sure how old they are but this is all going to make a strong imprint on them and you want to spare them as much suffering as possible. Second, you need to secure a good lawyer who will ask you to gather the necessary evidence to make your case.
2. How do I look her in the eye/interact with her now that I've acknowledged it's over? I knew before but the words seem to imbue the feeling with more emotion.
This is going to difficult but if you've come this far. You can keep it up a little bit longer. Hang in there buddy! HANG IN THERE!!!
3. Can I leave her and still maintain the sense of honor I feel I've worked hard to maintain for years?
All the above posters have answered this question perfectly. At this point you just need to be free. But, when it comes to your kids you ALWAYS need to protect them.
4. How do you deal with a house when neither of you can afford the payments on your own?
You will have to sell the house and temporarily move in with your family.
5. (This one almost certainly will be addressed by the counselor, but I want to ask for opinions here too.) How do we tell our kids?
This is going to be a looooooooong process. Depending on their age I feel like it's good to give as much information as they can handle. I know how important it is to be truthful with them but sometimes withholding certain details can spare them a lot of future problems. When they are older and mature enough then maybe you can share more.
6. What am I forgetting to ask? What advice can you offer?
You will survive this.
posted by Wanderer7 at 11:33 AM on December 4, 2008
Yes, I believe you should wait. Firstly, for your children. Not sure how old they are but this is all going to make a strong imprint on them and you want to spare them as much suffering as possible. Second, you need to secure a good lawyer who will ask you to gather the necessary evidence to make your case.
2. How do I look her in the eye/interact with her now that I've acknowledged it's over? I knew before but the words seem to imbue the feeling with more emotion.
This is going to difficult but if you've come this far. You can keep it up a little bit longer. Hang in there buddy! HANG IN THERE!!!
3. Can I leave her and still maintain the sense of honor I feel I've worked hard to maintain for years?
All the above posters have answered this question perfectly. At this point you just need to be free. But, when it comes to your kids you ALWAYS need to protect them.
4. How do you deal with a house when neither of you can afford the payments on your own?
You will have to sell the house and temporarily move in with your family.
5. (This one almost certainly will be addressed by the counselor, but I want to ask for opinions here too.) How do we tell our kids?
This is going to be a looooooooong process. Depending on their age I feel like it's good to give as much information as they can handle. I know how important it is to be truthful with them but sometimes withholding certain details can spare them a lot of future problems. When they are older and mature enough then maybe you can share more.
6. What am I forgetting to ask? What advice can you offer?
You will survive this.
posted by Wanderer7 at 11:33 AM on December 4, 2008
I would say your wife is beyond mentally ill and into the psychopath category. She has abused and manipulated you since you were a child yourself, and has severely limited the opportunities you've had in life for her own incredibly selfish desires. Despite this, you seem like a caring, loving father and a success in the workforce. You should really be congratulated for everything you've become despite her best efforts to drag you down.
As everyone else has said (well, except for that crazy "brother" guy), your honor is absolutely intact and will remain so when you escape from this situation. I hope there is some way you can gain custody of your children, so yes, go and get a lawyer as soon as possible. In terms of waiting until early January, yes, I would really try to do so if you think you can, and in the meantime prepare as well as you can to make a clean getaway. It would probably be a good idea to have an apartment rented where you can go directly after your first therapy session, for example, as she is going to freak out when she finds out your leaving. Also, can you ask her parents to look after the children for a week or two when you leave? Her mom sounds reasonable - perhaps you can enlist her support.
posted by hazyjane at 11:51 AM on December 4, 2008
As everyone else has said (well, except for that crazy "brother" guy), your honor is absolutely intact and will remain so when you escape from this situation. I hope there is some way you can gain custody of your children, so yes, go and get a lawyer as soon as possible. In terms of waiting until early January, yes, I would really try to do so if you think you can, and in the meantime prepare as well as you can to make a clean getaway. It would probably be a good idea to have an apartment rented where you can go directly after your first therapy session, for example, as she is going to freak out when she finds out your leaving. Also, can you ask her parents to look after the children for a week or two when you leave? Her mom sounds reasonable - perhaps you can enlist her support.
posted by hazyjane at 11:51 AM on December 4, 2008
Mod note: A couple comments removed. Do not act like an asshole or bait ideological flamewars in AskMe, please.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:03 PM on December 4, 2008
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:03 PM on December 4, 2008
I feel for you, brother. I was (am) in a similar situation with my soon-to-be-ex-wife. Each time we spoke about ending our very flawed, and very long term relationship, she'd starting telling me how she would kill herself. It's abuse at its purist form, and although many have opinions, it's hard to reconcile the reality of a person committing suicide on your account.
In the end, you have to remember that you are not responsible for the emotions of others. You've got one life to live and there are no second chances. Each day you live unhappily is one less you'll be able to live happily.
You both owe it to the children to be amicable.
posted by murp0837 at 12:26 PM on December 4, 2008
In the end, you have to remember that you are not responsible for the emotions of others. You've got one life to live and there are no second chances. Each day you live unhappily is one less you'll be able to live happily.
You both owe it to the children to be amicable.
posted by murp0837 at 12:26 PM on December 4, 2008
(This one almost certainly will be addressed by the counselor, but I want to ask for opinions here too.) How do we tell our kids
Unless they're really slow, they've probably already figured out that Daddy and Mommy don't get along so well. When you do say "we're getting divorced, but it's not because we don't love you" they'll know it's coming. (It was such a relief when my parents finally got divorced. Of course I cried, but I knew it would be better afterwards. I was in college, but kids can be surprisingly grown-up about things, too)
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 12:32 PM on December 4, 2008
Unless they're really slow, they've probably already figured out that Daddy and Mommy don't get along so well. When you do say "we're getting divorced, but it's not because we don't love you" they'll know it's coming. (It was such a relief when my parents finally got divorced. Of course I cried, but I knew it would be better afterwards. I was in college, but kids can be surprisingly grown-up about things, too)
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 12:32 PM on December 4, 2008
I agree with all the great info here but I want to reiterate: please please please remove your name from your profile. You never know what can be used against you in divorce or custody proceedings.
I'm sorry you're going through this.
posted by scody at 12:42 PM on December 4, 2008
I'm sorry you're going through this.
posted by scody at 12:42 PM on December 4, 2008
About the kids: as an adult you are able to, on some level, understand there are deep emotional problems at issue here with your wife. Your children - you don't mention their ages, but I presume quite young - are not going to be able to fully understand the psychological dynamic at work here. So your role must be twofold: you must not only continue to be a caring father to them, you must also remove some emotion when you speak to them about their mother and what is transpiring with her.
And what is about to happen is this: you are working to no longer be manipulated by her, but manipulators move quickly onto their next victim if they can't get the first one to work. Therefore there is a very, very high probability that she will in some fashion enmesh those children's lives into her crazy. She may threaten to take them, file some sort of crazy abuse charge against you, tell them lies about you, who knows. But they will be enmeshed and what's important to remember in that situation is that IT ISN'T PERSONAL. She is mentally ill. She will use whatever tools she can to get what she wants, which is to maintain the status quo, and you are all tools (sad as that is).
Your response must be focused on not escalating the crazy. To do that, you will have to do a few covert things, like finding your own apartment on the sly, etc. as others have mentioned. You will also need to very gently speak to your children one on one, not in her presence, and explain in a non-fault-focused way that there are problems but that they have nothing to do with them at all. Expect your wife to do the opposite: she will take them aside and indicate in some way that you are the cause of this. Do not take the bait. Do not fight back with her, there is no winning this one.
Lather, rinse, repeat. Tell these kids every single day they are not at fault and that you love them. Tell them over and over and over. And let them ask questions about the crazy she is doing and be honest with them, but go no farther than saying mom is sick. Do not let your anger and frustration come out in any manner when speaking to them. Kids are smarter than a lot of people give them credit for and can sense when something is off. But the key here is continuity and not falling for the tricks your wife is about to pull with your children.
I'm so sorry. Please keep us updated and take very good care of YOU and your children.
posted by December at 12:52 PM on December 4, 2008
And what is about to happen is this: you are working to no longer be manipulated by her, but manipulators move quickly onto their next victim if they can't get the first one to work. Therefore there is a very, very high probability that she will in some fashion enmesh those children's lives into her crazy. She may threaten to take them, file some sort of crazy abuse charge against you, tell them lies about you, who knows. But they will be enmeshed and what's important to remember in that situation is that IT ISN'T PERSONAL. She is mentally ill. She will use whatever tools she can to get what she wants, which is to maintain the status quo, and you are all tools (sad as that is).
Your response must be focused on not escalating the crazy. To do that, you will have to do a few covert things, like finding your own apartment on the sly, etc. as others have mentioned. You will also need to very gently speak to your children one on one, not in her presence, and explain in a non-fault-focused way that there are problems but that they have nothing to do with them at all. Expect your wife to do the opposite: she will take them aside and indicate in some way that you are the cause of this. Do not take the bait. Do not fight back with her, there is no winning this one.
Lather, rinse, repeat. Tell these kids every single day they are not at fault and that you love them. Tell them over and over and over. And let them ask questions about the crazy she is doing and be honest with them, but go no farther than saying mom is sick. Do not let your anger and frustration come out in any manner when speaking to them. Kids are smarter than a lot of people give them credit for and can sense when something is off. But the key here is continuity and not falling for the tricks your wife is about to pull with your children.
I'm so sorry. Please keep us updated and take very good care of YOU and your children.
posted by December at 12:52 PM on December 4, 2008
1st. take out your name from the profile. Now.
2nd. lawyer up, pronto. And find a prepared counsellor.
3rd, and most important:
From what I read You, Sir, despite being entangled for the better part of your life in an abusive relationship based on lies, half truths and emotional blackmail, have managed to become a sensible, compassionate and worded person, an hard working man, and a caring husband and father to the point of consciusly and willfully sacrificing friends and personal achievement. If you don't consider these to be the distinctive signs of a most decent and honorable person, then I don't know what else they could be. Have the best possible new life yourself and for your children, effective now.
posted by _dario at 1:00 PM on December 4, 2008
2nd. lawyer up, pronto. And find a prepared counsellor.
3rd, and most important:
From what I read You, Sir, despite being entangled for the better part of your life in an abusive relationship based on lies, half truths and emotional blackmail, have managed to become a sensible, compassionate and worded person, an hard working man, and a caring husband and father to the point of consciusly and willfully sacrificing friends and personal achievement. If you don't consider these to be the distinctive signs of a most decent and honorable person, then I don't know what else they could be. Have the best possible new life yourself and for your children, effective now.
posted by _dario at 1:00 PM on December 4, 2008
Please, please PLEASE tell your children that mommy has an illness that makes her do things she doesn't want to do (or in similar terms they can understand, depending on age). I grew up thinking everything my (bipolar, drug addict) mother did was MY FAULT and that damage infects my relationships to this day (I'm 34). If someone had only explained to me that she had a chemical imbalance, it wasn't her fault, and it wasn't my fault either, I think things would have turned out very differently for both of us. Instead it was swept under the rug as my dad blamed my mom, and my mom blamed me, and I blamed myself.
If you do NOTHING else, please, for their sake, do this. That would be the most honorable and loving thing you could do, in my book.
posted by desjardins at 1:14 PM on December 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
If you do NOTHING else, please, for their sake, do this. That would be the most honorable and loving thing you could do, in my book.
posted by desjardins at 1:14 PM on December 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
Mod note: TeachTheDead, folks responding: you all know where Metatalk is, and you're welcome to start a thread there if you need to have this side discussion.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:15 PM on December 4, 2008
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:15 PM on December 4, 2008
The key to personal honor isn't people telling you how honorable you are-- it's getting out there and doing what needs to be done, in as careful and competent a manner as possible, even when the thing you have to do completely sucks/ challenges your ingrained programming about the situation/ might cause someone else to behave irrationally.
You seem like you know what you need to do-- protect your children, seek professional help, find a way to get out of the situation. You need to lawyer up but good, now, and work with him or her to protect your assets and seek full custody of the kids based on their mother's mental illness. She's sick, even if she doesn't realize it-- but that doesn't mean you have to deal with it, because you can't do anything for her that she's not willing to do herself first, on her own initiative. Ask the lawyer what will happen to the house, and what immediate actions to take if your wife threatens suicide again in your presence or that of your children. As for day-to-day interactions, you need only be polite but distant to her, and openly loving and reassuring to the kids.
And get a therapist, on your own, who's not going to have contact with your wife. You're going to need a lot of support and reassurance as you break away from her-- you met her when you were very young, and she's spent all this time training you to have certain reactions to her cues. You're not going to break that easily, even fortified with the realization that you can't permit her to train up your children in the same way.
Good luck, man. Let us know how it plays out when you can.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 1:26 PM on December 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
You seem like you know what you need to do-- protect your children, seek professional help, find a way to get out of the situation. You need to lawyer up but good, now, and work with him or her to protect your assets and seek full custody of the kids based on their mother's mental illness. She's sick, even if she doesn't realize it-- but that doesn't mean you have to deal with it, because you can't do anything for her that she's not willing to do herself first, on her own initiative. Ask the lawyer what will happen to the house, and what immediate actions to take if your wife threatens suicide again in your presence or that of your children. As for day-to-day interactions, you need only be polite but distant to her, and openly loving and reassuring to the kids.
And get a therapist, on your own, who's not going to have contact with your wife. You're going to need a lot of support and reassurance as you break away from her-- you met her when you were very young, and she's spent all this time training you to have certain reactions to her cues. You're not going to break that easily, even fortified with the realization that you can't permit her to train up your children in the same way.
Good luck, man. Let us know how it plays out when you can.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 1:26 PM on December 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
I am not your counselor or therapist, but Lyn Never has it right. You're in an relationship that is built around emotional blackmail and betrayal. Regardless of how it started or who started it, it is what it is. You need to do what's best first, for the children. Second, if you truly feel there is no way to fix things, then pull the band-aid fast and do what has to be done. She is an adult and responsible for herself.
posted by damiano99 at 2:06 PM on December 4, 2008
posted by damiano99 at 2:06 PM on December 4, 2008
She is manipulative. If you leave, she will manipulate and destroy your children. So, if you care about your children and are willing to take full custody, I recommend consulting a lawyer before you take any action -- leaving the house, telling her you're done, anything.
If she's truly mentally ill -- like it sounds -- you're going to need to document and be factual. You may be able to get this via couples' therapy, but your lawyer will have more specific advice for you.
If she hasn't worked, you may be stuck with an alimony burden, depending on the state and your income, even if she's the college educated one.
She will demonize you to her parents, any remaining friends you have, etc. You just have to take that. Divorce is one of those situations where you have to accept that you will not get everyone to like you. Just do what you know inside to be right.
And your friends will be there. Maybe not all of them, but some of them. Particularly if you approach them honestly and humbly, acknowledging where you were wrong.
You can't make her happy, make her better or control her behavior. Don't let her make you miserable, make you worse or control yours.
Good luck.
posted by Gucky at 2:46 PM on December 4, 2008
If she's truly mentally ill -- like it sounds -- you're going to need to document and be factual. You may be able to get this via couples' therapy, but your lawyer will have more specific advice for you.
If she hasn't worked, you may be stuck with an alimony burden, depending on the state and your income, even if she's the college educated one.
She will demonize you to her parents, any remaining friends you have, etc. You just have to take that. Divorce is one of those situations where you have to accept that you will not get everyone to like you. Just do what you know inside to be right.
And your friends will be there. Maybe not all of them, but some of them. Particularly if you approach them honestly and humbly, acknowledging where you were wrong.
You can't make her happy, make her better or control her behavior. Don't let her make you miserable, make you worse or control yours.
Good luck.
posted by Gucky at 2:46 PM on December 4, 2008
I'm on team 'Get a Lawyer right now', but just wanted to add that when I went through couples counselling with my husband it was like it all went in slow motionnnnn. It was SUPER frustating. Bascially, the counsellor needed to hear the whole story, right from the beginning, in hour long chunks once every three weeks, not counting the small talk and "How are you feeling?" chit chat which preceeded it. We went through this for many expensive months, and we never ever seemed to get to the heart of the matter. It was as though every time we re-convened, we had to re-visit stuff discussed last week, and we never got anything done. It's what I imagine purgatory to be like. Throw in a huge bill each week, the concilatory and balanced-to-the-point of blindness language* used by the therapist, and well, I think it was about one of the most annoying experiences of my life.
So... the point? My husband and I were, in earnest, trying to get things right, which we did in the end. But to go through this crap when you know you want out? I couldn't be more serious - don't put yourself through it, man. Get the help for yourself, and get good advice about how to tackle this from a legal stand point. I think you should write everything which has happened out clearly for your own clarity of mind.
*Trust me, this is the thing which will drive you the most crazy - having to hear about how you may be in the wrong or how she feels, when it seems clear to most here that you have been manipulated and bullied for years. You've been hearing nothing BUT how she feels.
posted by lottie at 3:43 PM on December 4, 2008 [3 favorites]
So... the point? My husband and I were, in earnest, trying to get things right, which we did in the end. But to go through this crap when you know you want out? I couldn't be more serious - don't put yourself through it, man. Get the help for yourself, and get good advice about how to tackle this from a legal stand point. I think you should write everything which has happened out clearly for your own clarity of mind.
*Trust me, this is the thing which will drive you the most crazy - having to hear about how you may be in the wrong or how she feels, when it seems clear to most here that you have been manipulated and bullied for years. You've been hearing nothing BUT how she feels.
posted by lottie at 3:43 PM on December 4, 2008 [3 favorites]
my sister has gotten a lot out of a book called Splitting during her divorce from a toxic narcissist. I think you might find it useful, too.
posted by Sara Anne at 5:12 PM on December 4, 2008
posted by Sara Anne at 5:12 PM on December 4, 2008
Hoooooooooooooooly shit. I don't have much to offer other than a) remember that you and your kids come first and that you are in negotiations with a dangerous lunatic and b) listen to and heed the other posters in this thread except for the ones siding with your wife.
Do not under any circumstances stay with her. You and your kids deserve better.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:15 PM on December 4, 2008
Do not under any circumstances stay with her. You and your kids deserve better.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:15 PM on December 4, 2008
It would probably be a good idea to have an apartment rented where you can go directly after your first therapy session, for example, as she is going to freak out when she finds out your leaving.
No. Don't leave. How did our culture come up with the presumption that it's always the husband that leaves? Usually late at night, in the rain.
Your leaving will undercut your position that you want contact with or even custody of the kids. It will also leave her in sole possession of the house, undercutting your position that the house should be sold to equalize expenses (or you may even find a way to keep it yourself).
Consult your lawyer. She'll have much good advice on how to prepare for this. You're honorable, and you'll get through this.
posted by JimN2TAW at 8:16 AM on December 5, 2008
No. Don't leave. How did our culture come up with the presumption that it's always the husband that leaves? Usually late at night, in the rain.
Your leaving will undercut your position that you want contact with or even custody of the kids. It will also leave her in sole possession of the house, undercutting your position that the house should be sold to equalize expenses (or you may even find a way to keep it yourself).
Consult your lawyer. She'll have much good advice on how to prepare for this. You're honorable, and you'll get through this.
posted by JimN2TAW at 8:16 AM on December 5, 2008
Lawyer, especially as a male, before you do anything at all. Then DTMFA.
posted by Brian Puccio at 9:00 AM on December 6, 2008
posted by Brian Puccio at 9:00 AM on December 6, 2008
By the way, you should talk to a child therapist for more details but it's very likely that the emotional damage she'll cause the kids during the divorce will be a very thin icing over the extremely huge cake she's already inflicted on them.
Don't lose track of the forest for the trees here -- and *do* expect "if you decide to stay with daddy I'll kill myself" to be part of the playbook. Get the kids clear.
posted by tkolar at 7:15 PM on December 7, 2008
Don't lose track of the forest for the trees here -- and *do* expect "if you decide to stay with daddy I'll kill myself" to be part of the playbook. Get the kids clear.
posted by tkolar at 7:15 PM on December 7, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
Can I leave her and still maintain the sense of honor I feel I've worked hard to maintain for years?
My God, man, after she's lied to you, manipulated you, and threatened suicide to trap you into a situation, and you've finally discovered the truth, you're actaully questioning your honor?
Honestly, I'd say that the fact that you didn't get violent immediately upon finding this out shows that you are already well beyond the curve when it comes to honor. You thought about how your children would take all of this, to the point that you put their future memories of this Christmas before your own emotional well-being. I'd say that you are already well and safely in the "honorable" camp and have been there for years.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:13 AM on December 4, 2008 [19 favorites]